Dina Lohan talks “codependency” and Lindsay’s recovery

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Dina Lohan sat down with her nemesis (one of many), Matt Lauer. Dina was on the Today Show this morning, all to talk about her crackhead daughter and the alleged recovery. Before Lauer even began the interrogation of Dina, they put out a rather (justly) harsh recap of the events thus far, with some of Dina’s crack lies, and many of Lindsay Lohan’s crack lies, including the little fact that Lindsay was pleading poverty, yet she can afford to go on shopping excursions on rehab breaks. Here’s the video:

Some of the highlights, courtesy of USA Today and my own transcription:

Dina says she spent “two weeks” at the Betty Ford Clinic, talking with other families who have experienced a family member with addiction issues. Dina also says that the Clinic was helping families deal with “the codependency”. Smart. Next up should be “the enabling.”

Dina on Lindsay’s “state of mind”: “Happy. Relaxed… She’s just a different person. The Betty Ford Center is just an amazing place,” she added, calling it “life-changing” for Lindsay. “She’s been in a couple of facilities, but this one, to me, has really changed her. They get into your psyche and bring the problem to the surface.”

Dina also says that it’s a big deal for Lindsay to have Twittered that she has a problem, and Dina says something about how she hopes “it will help other families.” Mother Crackhead is a role model, y’all.

Dina on whether Lindsay recognizes she’s an addict: “YES. And this teaches you that you are. And she’s young, and I thank God that he didn’t incarcerate her, because that wouldn’t have helped her. And being so young and admitting that, it can only help her sobriety in the future.”

Dina on whether she could admit her daughter is an addict: “Yes. When I first came her initially, you know, that was for Lindsay to admit… I put her in rehab when she was 19… It wasn’t for me, as a mother, to come to the world and – I mean, how many viewers do you have? – about her problem, that was for her do. I wasn’t in denial by far, but I think it was for her to come to her own evolution.”

Dina on whether this rehab stay will stick: “We’ll take it one day at a time. I don’t have a crystal ball. I pray hard and she wants to start her own facilities, help other children. She’s so public, we can only be positive and look to the future to help other families.” Something tells me that if Dina did have a crystal ball, she would smoke that rock like it was going out of style.

Lohan is due to stay in rehab – she’s out of the center and “in a home,” said her mom – until Jan. 3. Lauer pointed out that last time Lindsay got out early. Might that happen again?

“Lindsay wants to stay,” said Dina. “She’s learning the trigger points and why she turns to something – drugs or addiciton.”

***

Does anyone else just roll their eyes at this? Dina is such a f-cked up person, and she contradicts herself constantly. If Dina really felt like Lindsay had all these problems (and Dina was just protecting her addict daughter), then why allow Ali to basically live with her crackhead older sister? Why all the delusional denials? Why all the crack lies? It wasn’t to protect Lindsay’s image, or to make Lindsay come to some kind of crack epiphany – it was so Dina was protecting her own ass, just like she’s doing now.

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70 Responses to “Dina Lohan talks “codependency” and Lindsay’s recovery”

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  1. alejandro says:

    At least she was finally forced to admit that Lindsay is an addict.

  2. lilred says:

    This idiot makes me sick…she isn’t worried about anyone except herself.

  3. neelyo says:

    ‘It wasn’t for me, as a mother, to come to the world and – I mean, how many viewers do you have? – about her problem, that was for her do. I wasn’t in denial by far, but I think it was for her to come to her own evolution.’

    If it wasn’t for her to talk about, then why the hell didn’t Dina just STFU and not do any press? Never mind, I know the answer.

    And yes, she’d smoke that crystal ball.

  4. dorothy says:

    Well now…Dina would be the expert. She’s been right-on target on all the other occasions. Really, really tired of these people.

  5. Rita says:

    This interview sounds perfectly PR groomed. It achieves its objective that the reader will come away with the thought “Sounds like she’s on the right track. I really hope she sticks to it. I have hope for her now.”

    How many times have we been here. She’s at a point where nobody cares anymore (except to make this comment). If she survives, I’ll be glad one was saved. If she’s arrested again in two months, I won’t be surprised or give a crap.

  6. Marjalane says:

    First and foremost, I hate NBC for giving this deluded idiot a forum to express her delusions, and 2nd, has White Oprah had “something” done recently? she’s looking more like Petunia Pig than I remember.

  7. Penguen says:

    Horrible woman.

  8. Innocent says:

    Dina was just protecting Lindsay and in August she was correct about the Judge being too harsh for the minor probation violation of missing a few classes.

    However when Lindsay failed the drug test then she knew she may as well come clean.
    She saw how jail didn’t help her at all and actually made her worse so she tried to get her out the system but she slipped up. Now until Feb 25th she is facing 180 days in jail and the whole world knowing if she relapses.
    I don’t see anything wrong with how she has tried to do her best by Lindsay.

  9. Marjalane says:

    @innocent

    Are you serious?

  10. Green Is Good says:

    You hit the nail on the head with Dina’s bullsh*t, Kaiser. WHY did Dina allow Alli to live with a drug addict?! Because Dina wanted to keep getting her mother-effing money.

  11. JaisyMaisy says:

    She wants to “help other CHILDREN”?? Lindsay is what?–23? 24?–hardly a child! Maybe if she would start referring to her as an ADULT who has to be responsible for her own choices, that would be a good start.

  12. Jazz says:

    She needs to stop doing interviews and go away. Lindsay’s crackhead mess is the only thing keeping any of these fools relevant.

  13. devilgirl says:

    *picks self off floor after collapsing in laughter* Lindsay wants to start her own facility????? Oh dear lord, the end of days is near!

    @Innocent- Dina, is that you? Surely you are joking?

  14. roguesiren says:

    Dina is Lindsay’s biggest problem. What parent of a 17 year old allows her to live by herself in LA? A parent who uses her child as a meal ticket, that’s who.

  15. Innocent says:

    @Marlajane
    Yes i’m serious in July Lindsay was desperate to avoid jail and attended all the classes and passed all the drug tests.
    Yet she got jail and rehab which meant if she broke the rules in rehab in rehab she was going back to jail.

    There was multiple times she tried to get Lindsay into rehab before May but in July when she was sentenced court ordered rehab is basically like jail.
    I think Dina did the best she could.

  16. Samigirl says:

    Maybe Dina could take the money she budgets for botox, and help lilo pay for Betty Ford…..This woman-her forehead doesn’t move AT ALL.

  17. teresa says:

    Oh where is Perez’s pen when I need it?! $$$ signs in this trick’s eyes.

  18. TG says:

    @Innocent – You are giving everyone else their laugh for the day. What kind of kool-aid are you drinking? No one is buying Dina or Lindsay’s BS so don’t even try it on us here.

  19. Jean says:

    Whoever gave this dipshit of a mother the idea that she had anything to say worth hearing?
    Her only talent is talking out of her ass and pimping out her daughter.
    And how very pathetic that a 24 year-old, who deems herself mature enough to booze and do hard drugs, sends out her mommy to defend her on national TV.
    I wish Lindsay a lasting recovery and hope she manages to make a healthy life for herself, but isn’t this desperate clinging on to whatever bit of relevancy she still has left, detrimental to her health?
    It’s not 2005 anymore, people seem to have moved on from this trainwreck that is Lindsay Lohan’s life and career.
    That’s the sad thing about trainwrecks, there’s always the promise of a bigger and better one to come along.

  20. Hollowdoll says:

    That woman makes my skin crawl. Her daughter is a commodity to her nothing more nothing less. She never hesitates to throw Lindsey under the bus when it is to her benefit. Disgusting. Lindsey needs to see her mother for who she is or she she is never going to deal with reality.

  21. KJ says:

    “…wasn’t in denial by far, but I think it was for her to come to her own evolution.”

    REVELATION, Dina. The word you’re looking for there is revelation.

    God, what a fucking idiot. I know that’s not the worst of the interview, but I can’t stand when grown adults do not speak well. It’s a pet peeve – like bad grammar.

    The codependency thing is interesting though, it seems like they really are addressing some deeply rooted issues – particularly with the relationships Lindsay has with her parents, and I’ve always felt that addiction, much like any other disease of compulsion, stems from a core issue (or issues) within the addict. If you can’t figure out what that is and come to terms with it, then you’ll never truly recover.

  22. chasingadalia says:

    Another dumb parent that I just want to slap across the face.

  23. scotchy says:

    @kaiser, now this has nothing to do with dina and lindsey, but were you aware that david gandy and helena christensen did a little model movie,
    i am posting the link here:
    http://www.wlondon.co.uk/gallery/away-we-stay
    the man is delicious.

  24. Stronzilla says:

    Why is she the one they chose to interview? Lindsay is an adult and frankly, facing the music for past transgressions should be part and parcel of her treatment. If she doesn’t speak for herself and allows her mother to do so its either because she is 1)too ashamed (nah), 2)didn’t take it seriously and doesn’t really care (probably) and 3)so someone in the family can make a buck off of nos. 1) and 2). Maybe Dina and Michael rotate and next up we’ll hear from him, just to keep it all in the family.

  25. Raven says:

    neelyo is absolutely right. What the heck is this woman doing on the air talking about a private problem?

    I think that Betty Ford is probably helping her–it’s what they do if someone stays long enough. The issue is going to be her crazy family when she gets out.

  26. Bodhi says:

    Ok Innocent, how do you explain away Dina’s apparent disregard for her younger daughter’s safety as evidenced by her letting Ali stay with Lindsay, who by Dina’s own admission, is an addict?

  27. eva says:

    lol, I’m with devilgirl! At first I thought the post from ‘innocent’ might have been the super-fan/stalker often see in photos outside the courthouse. But that post is so full of love for Dina, that the author could be none other than Dina.

    I’m cracking up at the thought of her reading these posts!

    I imagine she keeps a big bottle vodka by her pc to help come up with these replies.

  28. OXA says:

    Did Innocent find Lindsay’s stash?
    I could NBC be giving Dina this paying gig so they can maybe get Linday for her first post rehab interview.

  29. boo says:

    Ugh she is so annoying. Anyone notice how she squints her eye when she is making a point? I don’t think she has any clue that she is one of Lindsay’s enablers.

  30. Majosha says:

    This family wouldn’t know shame if it beat them all down with a lead pipe.

  31. mln says:

    @Innocent I think you need to educate yourself on addictive behaviors and then take a look at this situation what Dina has done is the exact opposite of protection.
    Dina needs to put herself through some intensive therapy then she needs to get herself a job so that she doesn’t feel the need to pimp out her daughters.

  32. Innocent says:

    @mln
    I get that people are saying that Dina has “enabled” Lindsay but jail did not help her.
    If jail had any effect on Lindsay she wouldn’t even have risked of violating her probation when she only had to stay clean for 67 days.

  33. original kate says:

    why is there internet access & shopping trips at the betty ford center? isn’t the whole point of rehab cutting yourself off from the outside world and focusing inward on the person you are beneath all the addictive behaviors? also, at the people saying jail didn’t “help” lindsay – it isn’t there to help people. jail is punitive; lohan broke probation repeatedly and went to jail as she should have.

    in other news, dina is still an idiot.

  34. KJ says:

    @Innocent – jail had no effect on Lindsay because she was able to wriggle out of it early. Punishment doesn’t mean anything if every time you’re sentence to it, you find a way out. All it did was tell her (and her family) that she was right and is above the law. I guarantee you if the LA County department of corrections was actually a competent system not run by chimps, Lindsay would have been in jail for the entire term, then ordered straight to rehab – do not stop, do not collect $200 dollars to go shopping at Forever 21. Jail failed because she wasn’t in there long enough to let it work. I’m not saying our criminal justice system is perfect, and our nations jails are very much so more punitive than rehabilitative like they should be, but let’s not kid ourselves – everytime she gets out early, or gets release due to special circumstances, all that does is reaffirm to her that she’s special and above the law – which is exactly what Dina thinks too.

  35. mln says:

    @Innocent jail didn’t help Lindsay because even in jail she had special rules and priviledges. She has always felt entitled and has yet to learn that there are consequences to her actions. Any person who aids in her belief that rules don’t apply to her is directly contributing to her addiction. No amount of jail or rehab will help Lindsay unless she genuinely wants to get better.

  36. KJ says:

    @original kate – No the point of rehab is not to cut you off the from the outside world entirely. That is the first portion of it, but the real point is to reintroduce recovering addicts to society little by little so they understand how to function in it WITHOUT drugs. If all they did was lock her up and put her through various therapy sessions, that’s only half the battle. She would leave rehab and immediately begin using upon entering the outside world. People have to realize that these little freedoms – shopping trips, coffee outings, extending internet/phone privileges – are really what help a recovering addict. If she can’t slowly learn to reintegrate herself into the world without drugs, there’s no way she’ll survive. That would be like an athlete tearing her ACL, having surgery, and then getting right back on the field or the hardwood. You need a period of time to slowly get back to reality. Rehab is a bubble and a safe haven. The more she goes out, the more temptation she will face, and the more therapy she has, the more tools she’ll have to avoid those temptations. It’s only proper.

  37. KJ says:

    And I DO disagree that jail should simply be punitive – that’s the problem with our system. We punish people, put them in an environment where the moral codes and ethical standards are entirely different, and then release them expecting them not to offend again. Jails and prisons DO need to have a rehabilitative aspect to them, otherwise it would just be a revolving door of criminals getting out, committing crimes, and being put back in because they don’t know how NOT to be criminals.

    Oh wait…that’s how it IS.

  38. bluhare says:

    @innocent: Jail didn’t help Lindsay? I don’t think it was supposed to. It was supposed to PUNISH her for failing to adhere to requirements of her probation. And, if Dina truly loved her daughter, she would not have condoned her daughter going to clubs underage, drinking and drugging herself into oblivion, or joining Lindsay in clubs. All of this behavior doesn’t sound supportive to me. It sounds like going along for the ride.

    And, as her manager, Dina could have hired financial managers to invest her earnings hopefully so she can have income from the investments. Doesn’t seem to have happened.

  39. susanne says:

    You guys should be ashamed of yourselves.

    Only one person kind of mentioned the fuckery that is Dina Lohan’s face.

    What is going on with that? some botox=good so more=even younger and fresher?

  40. Innocent says:

    Look Lindsay is a non violent misdemeanor offender and the only reason she got sentenced to 90 days is because the Judge knew anything less than 30 would have been booking and released.

    As for special privileges then she is Lindsay Lohan that is famous/infamous worldwide so her safety was an issue. She got her 2 weekly visits and her lawyer visited her 11 out of the 13 days but professional visits are unlimited.

    I can maybe see the Judge’s logic in the July 6th sentencing but it was never ever going to work.
    Did you read the probation report?
    UCLA was a total waste of time and they let her out because rehab is treatment not punishment and she made ZERO progress because she didn’t want to be there.

    Now who knows if she is serious this time but failing the drug test is why she is completing this rehab.

  41. mln says:

    Actually the crime that Lindsay committed was violent the charges were just reduced.

  42. 4Real says:

    A real mother wouldn’t TALK AT ALL! Take another pill maybe your mouth will start to close up like your eyes.

  43. Ruby Red Lips2 says:

    Innocent is your other name Kermit????

    The fact that Dina is on TV talking about Lindsay says it all – woman is a fame hungry b1tch who will ensure Lindsay never changes because who wants a sober Lindsay Lohan – there would be no press/ papps, no reason for Dina to be in the spotlight

    Lindsay is doomed

  44. KimiErin says:

    I would like to know, how this woman has money? Does she work? Or do the tabloids pay her salary?

  45. Innocent says:

    @bluhare
    I agree jail is about punishment and serving your time BUT with the July 6th sentence it was obvious that Lindsay was going to violate.
    It should have been jail or rehab
    Jail is punisment and rehab is treatment. However if you’ve already been to jail and are forced to go to rehab otherwise go back to jail then what did the Judge think was going to happen.

  46. lucy2 says:

    I saw this interview this morning and was actually yelling at the TV. The BS spewing out of her mouth was unbelievable, and obviously crafted by a PR person.
    She previously wouldn’t admit Lindsay was an addict because it was something she had to admit for herself? Then why did she do that interview at all!? Puh-lease. Dina’s only admitting it now because she got busted by Lindsay’s actions.
    She wants to help other addicts? Um, no, help yourself first – she’s flunked rehab 4 or 5 times now and has yet to be released from this one – get your own life together for a few years first.

    If this rehab actually works, I’ll be stunned. I suspect as soon as she’s out int

  47. Tia C says:

    Dina is ten different kinds of stupid. WOW. Her IQ must be in the single digits. Not one thing that comes out of her mouth makes any sense. I don’t think she even knows what she’s talking about, or what she’s attempting to say. Lindsay’s PR people seriously need to put a muzzle on her, because every time she does one of these awkward, embarrassing interviews, she’s only hurting Lindsay’s image further. Michael, as crazy and useless as he is, is obviously the smarter parent. At least he can put together a complete sentence. But neither of them needs to ever talk to the media again. Ever. Ugh.

  48. Marie says:

    I could kick Matt Lauer right in the nuts for doing another interview with this horse face looking bitch…Overdosing will not come fast enough making the entire family completely irrelevant.

  49. hairball says:

    Here’s a thought: Why not for once, can Dina act like a real mother and not go on national tv to discuss her daughter’s problems?

    Can she for once, be there for Lyndsay privately and have her daughter come before media? What does that tell Lyndsay, that yet again, what other people think is so important.

    I don’t buy for once second Lyndsay thinks she is an addict. And yes, what mother lets their under-age daughter stay with a crack head????

  50. Shelley says:

    @Innocent, akkkk!! You’re displaying toward Dina the same defensive stance you take toward LL. So it’s fine with you that Dina literally lies to protect LL because Dina is LL’s mom? And how about all the other mothers’ childrens’ lives – including your own, if you’re wherever LL is behind the wheel – who are endangered every time LL is DUI and/or DWI? Is everyone else on the planet of less value than LL?

    Also, jail and rehab aren’t supposed to ‘help’ LL. Nothing can or will help her if she won’t help herself, which starts with a hard honest look in the mirror.

  51. elvisgrace says:

    @ susanne
    I can never make it past the insane f8cked up tiny upside down tiny triangle that is Dina Lohan’s mouth long enough to pay attention to the rest of her face. How does she eat??? Can she really get a fork in there?!?!?

  52. bluhare says:

    @innocent: If Lindsay complied with her probation requirements from the get go, no one would be talking about this. But seeing as she didn’t do that, and her violations (and excuses) started to border on the spectacular, here we all are.

    It’s gotten to where she’s the boy who cried wolf. She’s whined and complained for so long, no one believes her and no one will until her actions start matching words. Fair? Maybe not, if she really is trying now. But fair only lasts so long and at least for me, it’s a distant memory.

    OK, all that being said, I do think that compared to Charlie Sheen she’s being treated unfairly. HOWEVER, that does not mean I think she shouldn’t be where she is now, it means I think Charlie Sheen should be called out, and sent to jail followed by padded room treatment until he comes to his senses.

  53. Marie says:

    @elvisgrace I personally think her mouth looks like a dogs asshole all puckered up..but that’s just me 🙂

  54. MissyA says:

    “I don’t read the gossips.”

    BITCH. PLEASE.

    That’s a ballsy statement to make when you’re doing damage control for your paparazzi-addicted daughter on the talk show circuits.

    Didn’t this woman once hold a press conference for toothbrushes?

  55. lulu says:

    Does anyone remember that last interview with Dina when she spent most of her time claiming Lyndsay’s innocence, gloating about the lawyers and judges not being able to sentence her, and denying how many times her child had been in rehab. I wish that Lauer guy had asked the real questions such as ‘ How about you, Mrs Lohan. Are you an addict? If you’re such an expert on addiction having chosen and married your husband, how come you were so slow on spotting Lyndsay’s problems. Do they recommend clubbing with your kids as appropriate behavior nowadays? and if you were just acting during the last interview – because as you say it’s Lyndsay who has the right to come clean about her addictions on national TV – then perhaps it is YOU who should become an actress. You were really very convincing as the outraged idiot mother…’

    You know what else – she’s forever mentioning that she has 3 other children – like it’s an accomplishment to be able to count them. I bet she couldn’t answer a more complicated question like “Any idea where they are right now?’

  56. jc126 says:

    What an idiot. A month ago she was claiming Lindsay wasn’t an addict, which despite what she says does not “protect” her from anything, saying that. Imbecile.

  57. Jean says:

    Stop enabling Dina/Innocent everyone!
    Let’s ignore her and she’ll go away and focus on her issues (lord knows she has a whole bunch to pick from).

  58. bluhare says:

    #57 Jean (I think!): Do you really think Innocent is Dina? She’d waste her time like this? Although whoever it is certainly seems to be familiar with lots of details, I’ll give you that.

    Hmmm . . . guess I just said people waste their time here. I’m the pot calling the kettle black, aren’t I? And, Kaiser, I’m not wasting my time . . . honest!

  59. Moreaces says:

    The love of a mother to a daughter does not include indulging your daugthers denial of addiction, because she is not ready to get help,,I mother that loves her daughter, would do any and everything possible to open the daughters eyes to her life threathing lifestyle,, and not encourage her that she does not have a problem, when Mom knows good and well daughter is killing herself.

  60. Liana says:

    I put her in rehab when she was 19…

    ***********

    Why, Dina? I thought she wasn’t an addict. At least that’s what you kept on saying. I can’t with this woman.

  61. Camille says:

    Out of all the Lohans, this is the one I dislike the most. Dina’s kids didn’t stand a chance with her as their mother.

  62. original kate says:

    “No the point of rehab is not to cut you off the from the outside world entirely. ”

    yes, i understand how rehab works, but when you keep going to rehab repeatedly and failing drug tests as soon as you leave then maybe it should be a bit more structured. and it seems like lohan was out the first week or so going to starbucks and shopping. sounds more like camp to me. jail is punitive because that is the main goal, but many people have gotten degrees and learned new skills while in prison because they wanted to change and they worked hard to better themselves, and i am all for that. but nothing will work for lohan until she gets serious about changing her life. right now she’s still playing the blame game.

  63. Shy says:

    The most amazing thing about those two idiots (Lohan and Dina) is that they really think that Lindsay is RDJ, Charlie Sheen, Drew Barrymore, Mickey Rourke … and that after she will “serve” her time at rehab there will be Spielbergs and Scorseses waiting at her front door with scripts.

    I’m sure that she doesn’t take rehab serious and doesn’t think she is addict. She thinks that she will “serve” there few months and then will be free and immediately will reborn like RDJ, Drew and other actors who overcome addiction. And everyone will sorry her and will begin to respect her. And she will immediately get movie roles with famous actors and will be rising star again…

    She doesn’t understand it with her chicken mind that it took years for other struggled actors to overcome their demons. And only after years of sobriety and LOW key behavior they got another chance. That Lohan would have to go underground and low key for at least a year to even have a little chance. But we all know it will never happen. She will come out and everyday will wondering around streets shopping and just for no reason.

    And it’s amazing that Pattinson and Stewart with all their crazy fans still somehow manage to go low key and sometimes it’s MONTHS that we don’t see their paparazzi pictures. Taylor Lautner have basically disappeared after Eclipse premiere. We don’t see his pictures. It’s very easy for celebrity to live low key. And yet Lohan goes to clubs and shopping every day and then complains that everyone stalking her.

  64. Anti-icon says:

    Why go on national television when your daughter is in rehab? Never try to make sense out of this crack whore. Denial/Dysfunction say thy name: Dina Lohan, Michael Lohan, Lindsey Lohan.

  65. k says:

    First I want to say that I did not watch their reality show. But one night I was watching the show before theirs. I had to leave the room for a while, came back in, and their show had started. What I saw in maybe 3 or 4 mins., was Dina on the computer going over the gossip articles stating she was calling her lawyer over some of the Lindsay stories. So she does browse them.

    And the more she talks, per Today show interview, the less intelligent she seems.

  66. My2Cents says:

    I can’t stand this women. I still can’t get pass her taking her kids clubbing when she knows one of them has addiction issues. It’s totally beyond me.

  67. Emily says:

    She’s high. Half her sentences change direction halfway through, or are cut off with a completely different thought, or just don’t make any sense for her to not be on something.

  68. CB Rawks says:

    I agree Emily. It was so annoying to watch. I just wanted to slap her. And as usual Lauer let her get away with the most obvious crap. Such a hack interviewer.

  69. CB Rawks says:

    “attended all the classes and passed all the drug tests.”

    That’s a lie. Innocent, you need a psychiatrist.
    If this is your paid gig it is a sad pathetic job, and you should be ashamed of yourself. If it’s just a hobby, then I suggest you read a book or take a class.

  70. Lia says:

    Dina Lohan is trying to make it look like her meal ticket, I mean.. her daughter, will be able to do movies again as soon as she leaves the Betty Ford. Just wait until Linds is free from rehab. Dohan will be out there demanding free ice cream again, trying to get judges fired, etc. Can somebody please transport this family to a non-inhabited island out in the Pacific somewhere and spare the rest of us?