Amid all the joy and history being made last night with the election of Barack Obama, there are still signs that not all American citizens are regarded as equal. In California, proposition 8 passed by a narrow margin, reversing the state Supreme Court’s decision to uphold the rights of same-sex couples. At press time, the proposition was passed, 52% to 48%.
A measure to once again ban gay marriage in California led Tuesday, throwing into doubt the unions of an estimated 18,000 same-sex couples who wed during the last 4 1/2 months.
As the measure, the most divisive and emotionally fraught on the state ballot this year, took a lead in early returns, supporters gathered at a hotel ballroom in Sacramento and cheered.
We caused Californians to rethink this issue,” Proposition 8 strategist Jeff Flint said.
Early in the campaign, he noted, polls showed the measure trailing by 17 points.
“I think the voters were thinking, well, if it makes them happy, why shouldn’t we let gay couples get married. And I think we made them realize that there are broader implications to society and particularly the children when you make that fundamental change that’s at the core of how society is organized, which is marriage,” he said.
They must be so proud – these bigots openly cheering their decision to legislate hate. How nice for them. Meanwhile, in San Francisco, hundreds of gay couples were in a much more somber mood, wondering where this leaves their unions.
You decided to live your life out loud. You fell in love and you said ‘I do.’ Tonight, we await a verdict,” San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom said, speaking to a roaring crowd. “I’m crossing my fingers.”
Elsewhere in the country, two other gay marriage bans, in Florida and Arizona, were well ahead. In both states, laws already defined marriage as a heterosexual institution. But backers pushed to amend the state constitutions, saying that doing so would protect the institution from legal challenges.
Proposition 8 was the most expensive proposition on any ballot in the nation this year, with more than $74 million spent by both sides.
The measure’s most fervent proponents believed that nothing less than the future of traditional families was at stake, while opponents believed that they were fighting for the fundamental right of gay people to be treated equally under the law.
“This has been a moral battle,” said Ellen Smedley, 34, a member of the Mormon Church and a mother of five who worked on the campaign. “We aren’t trying to change anything that homosexual couples believe or want — it doesn’t change anything that they’re allowed to do already. It’s defining marriage. . . . Marriage is a man and a woman establishing a family unit.”
I’m so glad we have people like Ellen Smedley legislating our morals for us. Aren’t you? I mean, sure, we have two wars going on, a financial crisis and people losing their homes – but the REAL evil in this country is gay people who want to get married. If we can just get them under control everything will be fine. Right?
Newlyweds George Takei and Brad Altman are shown last night celebrating Barack Obama’s victory. At that point the results of the proposition 8 vote were not yet known. Ellen DeGeneres and Poria de Rossi are shown at a ‘Yes! on Prop 2 Campaign’ to stop Animal Cruelty on 9/28/08. Credit: WENN
😥
I just vomited in my mouth. This is outrageous.
This is awful. 🙁
I am so dissapointed about the passage of Prop 8! How is it that California saw how important it was to vote for more humane treatment of animals (Prop 2) but missed the importance of granting basic rights to all human beings!
It makes me very sad that we are still legislating to take away peoples rights based on the Bible and fears of ignorant Americans. What happened to separation of church and state? My heart goes out to all those couples whose unions are in jeapordy now!
Disgusting….
The bottom line is, each side is legislating morals and what should be thought. Should they be allowed to marry, sure. But, should those with a different belief system be shut down due to one side’s perception of justice?
The problem is this nation allows for an inclusion of religion or belief and/or freedom. Our currency says “In God we Trust.” Unless this country does away with religious freedom, abortion will always be close to being overturned and this topic will go on well into the later half of this century.
This is very narrow – 52.1% to 47% percent. THE RACE HAS NOT YET BEEN CALLED. There are thousands of absentee ballotts yet to be counted.
Additionally, there are several things political analysts are pointing out:
Older hispanics and blacks are traditionally very CONSERVATIVE. These groups turned out in droves to support Barack, but voted to ban gay marriage. So Barack’s victory helped fuel the ban.
The NO on 8 saide, on the other hand, says younger voters decided not to vote because the presidential race was already being called on the East coast. This meant many people said “why bother” since their Presidential vote didn’t matter… which means they diodn’t make it to the polls to vote NO on 8.
And in a seperate comment, I like Ellen and Portia and support their right to marry. So I voted NO on 8.
But I am very angry with Ellen for supporting YES on 2, which is an animal rights prop. It looks good on paper and passed handily. Good going, Ellen. Now the egg industry is going to leave California (which already has excellent animal confinement standards in the first place) and head to other states where treating animals like crap is the norm.
Yay! Older, more expensive eggs being trucked in from miles away in polluting trucks!!! But at least the hens won’t be being mistreated in my state! 🙄
The fundamental problem with this horrible Proposition 8 is that they have so intertwined Church and State, that people actually think this is a political issue, when really it is a personal issue and the government has no business being involved.
This fight for civil rights in the U.S. is far from over. Just for starters this prop. poses the question can a state constitution be amended with an unconstitutional amendment ?
Yes on 8 waged a dirty campaign filled with lies and fear. No on 8 unfortunately ran a campaign that was lazy and poorly strategized. They saw their early 17 point lead and kind of sat back until it was too late.
Thankfully the fat lady hasn’t finished singing.
They won…the voters spoke.
Did I mention I’m a TV reporter, so I’m all up in this stuff? As I result, I know each prop inside out and backwards.
So my final word is… it looks like Prop 8 narrowly passed, but again, it has not yet been called. Which the NO side is stressing… meaning they’re gearing up for a court battle.
cali angel: You said it perfectly.
So sad. 🙁
One last thing: while Barack Obama is very progressive on gay rights issues, he is AGAINST GAY MARRIAGE.
He has a good stance on other gay issues such as gays in the military (he wants to repeal don’t ask/don’t tell), believes gays should be able to adopt, and was AGAINST California’s Prop 8… BUT HE SUPPORTS CIVIL UNIONS, NOT GAY MARRIAGE. In fact, most of my gay friends supported Hillary.
So, it stands to reason that as California voted for a President who prefers civil unions to gay marriage, the state also voted to outlaw gay marriage (which would put us back to allowing civil unions only). Not my views, just some analysis for yah.
I think that gays should be happy being gay, but they shouldn’t try to change up society. that’s the point! do I believe it’s wrong , yes, but do i love gay’s yes, it’s up to god to do the judging but it seems like the gays are only worried about themselves what about the confusion it sends to the children, and what the young child will go thru, just leave the marriage alone it was meant under GOD FOR MEN AND WOMEN, and if i had to vote i would vote against everytime.
what WILL the child go through, huh? growing up with parents who love each other? yeah, that´s really traumatizing 🙄
You know, if its all about having a mom AND dad in the home and not a single sex, which will supposedly confuse the child, then where’s all the rallying against single, unmarried parents?
Yeah.
Plus, the very fact that “morality” and the Bible has an influence on our decisions as to who should be married and who should not, is a VIOLATION OF THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. You either make it an issue solely of the government, and free from influence based on religious beliefs, or you make it only an issue between you, the church, and God. Period. But oh no, we couldn’t have that right. Because then no tax breaks for married couples! So the hate mongers on.
toosexy – you sound very ignorant. This is about a person’s rights, and equality in the world. Religion should be taken out of this.
How hateful and ugly.
It’s always been my opinion that what happens in the bedroom should stay in the bedroom. Heterosexual couples don’t discuss or demonstrate their sexual activity for their children, so why would we think that homosexual parents would do that?
I have a good friend who’s gay and has adopted two children. He and his partner are terrific loving parents, and certainly these kids are better off than they were with their natural mothers, one of whom was a prostitute in Detroit and the other a crack addict in Chicago.
I just think that if people want to love and commit to each other, they should be able to do so, no matter what their genitalia.
all voters should be equal numbers in both genders. In my experience I hear more prejudice against gay-marriage (and homosexuality in general) coming from males. Maybe heterosexual males find gayness a threat to their masculinity or something . . . . . .
whereas females seem to have a more sensitive outlook towards gayness and see it more as an equality issue.
toosexy, you sound too ignorant. Separation of church and state. People have a right to be with who they love. Most gay relationships are longer and stronger than a lot of hetero relationships. It is so true. It is narrow minded, uneducated people that don’t have forward, kind hearted thinking. It is so true. That is ok, this is far from over, and gay people will win in the end, just like women and the black race who were also oppresed and had to come up in history. Obama is about love and brining everyone together, he mentioned gay and straight people alike in his speech last night. Keep your chin up gay people. You are awesome and baby steps .. you all will prevail.. and rightly so.. XOXOXO
Proud as hell to be Canadian! And the Mormon lady – don’t they have like 5 wives and stuff – how is that ok?
There is always a battle. And I for one would like to start the battle along with my Mormon friends to ban divorce. I believe the right to divorce should be rescinded. You want to follow the laws of Jesus your Lord and that other dude with the magic undies. You should not be allowed divorce under any circumstances. The religious taliban wingnuts would never allow that to happen! I mean Jesus was all about convenience. Convenience to choose what you like from the bible and disregard what you don’t. It’s so unbelievably stupid. The bible says that I can own slaves of a neighboring nations…I want a Canadian now Jesus! NOW!
actually, this is my opinion and it wasn’t hateful to call me ignorant is ridiculous i have an opinion just like the rest of you and my opinion is i don’t agree with same sex marriage and that’s in no way hateful or ignorant. i have the right just like you to speak how i feel about it, i have two gay cousins and i love them dearly so what your saying is so irrevelant. i don’t judge or hate i just have my stance on it. I love everybody and that’s what counts i don’t have to agree with everyone. marriage is between woman and man it has always been that way and just because your gay doesn’t give you th4e right to change this and when people get married they make this commitment in front of god, so what do you mean by religion, who has to marry you? a priest.that’s the problem with this country now, wanting god out,but it will never happen he’s always in control. you want to be equal and want respect but you can’t even respect someone’s opinion that differs.
Obama is against the Defence of Marriage Act on the grounds that it is discriminatory, it is. The bottom line here is you cannot single out a group of people and legislate to deprive that group of rights everyone else enjoys based on the targeted groups race, religion, gender or sexual orientation. Equally there is no such thing as seperate but equal, we found this out during the fight for racial and gender equality.
I hope California attorney general Jerry Brown is as sharp as I think he is with this one. Peoples civil rights should never be determined by a popular vote.
Now that African Americans have made history, who else are we going to be able to hold down? Give it another 100 years or so before you start to see people being accepting of gays/lesbians. That seems to be the trend. 😥
“when people get married they make this commitment in front of god”
I don’t know when you last spoke with God, but I tend to believe that God would not have a problem with two people of the same sex getting married. God loves all his children, he doesn’t discriminate.
also this seperation thing is a bunch of crock, when politicans run for office, why do you think they say their chiristans? religion is very much part of this country and goverment. they might not be living right but that alone lets you know the majority of this country still knows what this country was made upon and that’s GOD. I california also knows.
@samantha
i’m thru with after this one, it’s in the bible god is very clear about homosexualitly. men should not lye within men. go to bible.com and search homosexuality. or just read the bible.
” toosexy:
November 5th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
also this seperation thing is a bunch of crock, when politicans run for office, why do you think they say their chiristans? religion is very much part of this country and goverment.”
Just because they do it, doesn’t make it right. The founding fathers wanted there to be a separation of church and state after what they experienced in Britain, before fleeing their own persecutions to come to America. People throw in the God thing because they know they don’t stand a shot in hell if they don’t. And it isn’t just Christian, its the RIGHT kind of Christian. You think Mitt Romney didn’t love God? But since Mormonism is not the majority, he didn’t stand a chance. Look back in history, this is not new, and THIS is the problem.
*Imagines how the world would be like if the bible-lickers hadn’t infected millions with their toxin.*
It is appropriate that the people of a state choose their laws, as opposed to the judges. It is the job of the judiciary to say what the law is, and not to make it.
Since 1977 California’s laws have explicitly defined marriage as between a man and a woman. Since 1999 same-sex couples have had the right to become domestic partners, with the same rights as a married couple.
Therefore, it is merely a question of semantics. Do same-sex couples in a domestic partnership have the RIGHT under law to bear the same title as a legally joined (married) heterosexual couple? Why? What rights are being abridged? Are titles a matter of right? Who is harmed either way?
Recently, four of seven judges “read between the lines” of the CA Constitution and found the right to call a legally-committed same-sex partnership a marriage. Three dissenting judges pointed out that new laws should be left to the legislature or the people.
The people voted (again, as they did in 2000) to define marriage as between a man and a woman. Same sex couples may still enter domestic partnerships and will inure to all the benefits of a marriage, except that under law it is not a marriage.
Words are powerful, no doubt. But do they have such power as to rise to a right?
Is a “man and a woman” couple really the same thing as a “woman and a woman” couple, or a “man and a man” couple? According to adoption agencies there is a difference. If the different unions have all the same rights under California law, it certainly begs the question: if there’s no difference in the legal status, why call it something different?
I’m so confused.
samantha and he will still love his children on judgement day even the ones who don’t make it do ,you catch my drift, he will still love the murders and the theives and so on. but he won’t go back on his word. and i’m not saying all gay people will go to hell or nothing god is the judge, i’m just saying it’s not right and i don’t agree with same sex marriages as i am sure you have things you don’t agree with it’s life.
@vantez it would be full of murder, theives, no order. i bet you think we came from the apes too.
“but he won’t go back on his word.”
-For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in me shall not perish but have everlasting life.-
Jesus is the wild card. I consider that going back on his word. He loves all his children, and all his children have a way into heaven, always. I don’t think loving someone who is the same sex as you sends you to hell. You can’t control who you love. When people finally realize that, they will accept it.
@samantha no need to argue let’s just agree not to agree 😀 see yall later
I’m not arguing, I am debating. There is a difference. I understand its hard to debate someone with a closed mind though, and for that reason I will stop.
I agree Samantha- you can’t control whom you love.
My eldest daughter told me she is gay at age 24; she’d had two boyfriends but said sex felt like she was being raped. She finds women more loving and caring and is totally gay and happy now.
Good for your daughter for doing what she felt in her heart is right, and great of you to be so accepting of it. If more people were as understanding and accepting, the world would be a better place.
i don´t believe in god. i don´t think there is a god. or a power. am i still allowed to get married, toosexy?
There is no middle ground with this subject. People are never going to agree. And you just can’t have a decent conversation/debate with idiots :p Yeah, toosexy, I mean you.
😀 @samantha that was good i told someone that last week it is a difference between debating and arguing i have no problem debating but i will not be calle ignorant and be belittled for what i believe in i don’t do it and don’t expect it in return, so what else is their to debate about, i love all people but don’t agree with same sex marriages per my religious beliefs,and i am not living totally correct so i can’t talk about anyone i have my own problems but what i believe in is just that my mind is not closed if you knew me then you would know but to make that kind of statement from one blog comment is outrageous to me. and that’s what i mean if you can debate without name calling then that’s fine.
The problem with religion, is people pick and choose which things to follow, and decide to forget the rest of it. It shouldn’t work like that. If you are going to claim to be of a certain religion, you need to follow all of the rules, not just the ones you like.
I am not a religious person. I have had many years of experience with many different religions, and have come to the conclusion that there are too many hypocrites and not enough true believers of any faith. I don’t want to base my life around something like that.
@samanthat know you see why
@kate why i’m i a idiot for what i believe in could i call you an idiot for what you believe in i could be that would be so immature and ignorant.
meant now
yeh, that’s it.
If you’ve been in love you’d know it’s not ‘mind-over-matter’; you have no control over it.
and we have no right to tell others who or how to love – that would be megalomania (but unfortunately some deluded individuals consider they shoulod have power over others . . . that is one of the big wrongs with this planet
“so what else is their to debate about, i love all people but don’t agree with same sex marriages per my religious beliefs,and i am not living totally correct so i can’t talk about anyone i have my own problems”
You have said enough. You yourself said you don’t live right, but then you continue to say you don’t agree with same sex marriage. You love everyone equally, just not to give equality. Judge not lest ye be be judged yourself. What if someone decided to hold you accountable for ‘not living right’? Oh, thats right. You don’t have to worry about people dictating what is ‘right’ in your personal life, so its easier to do it to others.
@anni yes you could i can’t judge you that’s not up to me, i believe because i know him for myself personally and until you do you will never understand what i just said, but i don’t have anything against you or i don’t think your ignorant. and @samantha you can’t worry about people all christians aren’t living right but i have to try my best for me and my children and be a testimony and i do have them i know god is real and alive and i’m not ashame to say it, hey they talked about him too
Love is blind.
I don’t see how any decent human being could support something like Prop 8. To do so is to support hatred, ignorance, and bigotry. Who would willingly choose hate over love?
Do you ever wonder why the Amish don’t grow mustaches? Because in the bible there is a quote saying you can’t. Maybe we should outlaw mustaches, because God said we can’t have them. Pork is dirty, filthy, and should not be consumed. Maybe we should ban pork, I wouldn’t want to go to hell for a piece of pork chop. Jesus flipped a table whilst gambling was going on. So anyone who has ever purchased a scratch card or local lottery ticket is going to hell. But of course, we tend to ignore those things. Hardcore Baptists think dancing is not allowed, and alcohol is not allowed. Man, I think we are all going to hell for that one.
it’s not even about God.
It’s about ethics; equality to all wo/men.
common sense – issues become muddled when bringing God into things
The bigger issue is love not war/hate/prejudice
“Who would willingly choose hate over love?”
The same people who claim their God loves us unconditionally. Hypocrites.
It shouldn’t be about God jaq, but it is. This is what it is boiling down to – Religion dictating what is right and what is wrong. Unfortunately there are more people who are willing to vote the way they have been brainwashed to vote instead of taking the time to THINK about things and make decisions on their own.
Fear. Driven by fear.
toosexy, I think you could be confusing the issue regarding marriage in law and religious marriage. If a religion chooses not to recognise gay marriage or anything else, that is up to that religion and its proponents to decide because they are acting on an article on faith.
Anyone who gets married in the eyes of a church is married under the norms of that church. However, the law should not be partisan towards the tenets of one particular religion over another as they may be conflicting (e.g. Catholicism tends not to recognise second marriages as it is a sacrament, most Protestant churches do not; some sects of Mormonism and Islam recognises polygamy, most others won’t. Which do you pick as “right”?)
But I’ll do you a deal on one thing – I’ll ignore that Creationist barb if you learn the correct usage of there/their/they’re and your/you’re.
@samantha i’m not perfect but i strive to be the best i can and i have come a long way, but the things i still have trouble with i’m not going to try to make them right just because i’m doing it, i remember this guy on perez said he’s gay but he knows it’s not right that took a lot of guts to me, people tend to try to justify their wrong doings i don’t do that. but just because i’m not perfect doesn’t mean i have to support something i don’t feel is right. I don’t understand right now why i’m being attacked,but you talk about hate and all. i haven’t attacked anyone for being gay, intelligent people should be able to disagree without calling names. I don’t pick and choose right is right and wrong is wrong. period
@mairead this is informal english it’s common for things of this nature. i’m not in professional setting or academic setting so this is perfectly fine, now when i’m in class i make sure all grammer is correct.so i apologize just look over it,but hey i have been getting all a’s on my grammer\writing assignments in school. on my way to that degree.
No one is attacking you, we just cant comprehend how you can say you aren’t attacking anyone for being gay, but you are preventing them from expressing their love in the same fashion that everyone one else in this country has the right to do. That is an attack, whether you sugar coat it or not. You don’t dictate what is right and what is wrong if you are brain washed into thinking what is right and wrong. If suddenly they wanted to pass a law banning unmarried couples from living together, would you support this? If they decided to pass a law taking children away from families that weren’t married when the child was born, and give the children to married couples, would you support this? I don’t think you would. You know that this would be wrong. So why is it not seen as wrong to strip someone of their fundamental rights? I just cant understand it.
@TooSexy
How sad for you to realize that children are born innocent and that they all love and understand love at an early age. They don’t hate until they are taught to hate which translates into love is a natural human emotion.
Just so you know “us gays” go through a hard enough time coming to terms and accepting the fact that we are gay, and it’s a very hard road to travel. Everyone from man to beast wants to be loved, and no one wakes up every day thinking “You know what? I want to be ridiculed, I want to live in fear for my life, I want to be treated like a second class citizen denied the basic rights of ‘normal people’. Let’s see how I can accomplish that for myself.”
No. Everyone wants to fit in, and it starts from child hood. I faced a huge adversity coming out. I lost the love of a father who felt like he had the right to judge me, even though he never did a damn thing for me. I lost the love of several family members and friends because I cannot help the way that I am, and believe me I tried. I had a daughter at a young age, and it is the only life she knows, and to watch her cry last night when Prop 2 passed and she knew that I couldn’t even get married it broke her heart and in turn my heart. I am not a criminal, I pay my taxes and even though I had my daughter at 18, I worked two jobs so I would never have to go on welfare. And people like me can’t even get married. It makes me sick.
And what about the kids? My ex girlfriend of 10 years and I were her “room moms” We did more for her class and spent more time with the kids than most “normal” parents. Guess what? All the kids knew is that their friend had 2 moms, and that her moms always made every holiday special for their class, and we made sure that they had all of the extra school supplies that they needed. That’s all they cared about. Not what we did in the privacy of our bedroom. If you let kids know that love is love, they don’t care if it’s between a man and a woman or two people of the same sex. How is that so wrong? It hurts. Like I said on another post, how would the “normal people” of America like it if they made a law where you could only get married one time? Then all hell would break loose because the government is telling THEM who they can and can’t be married to. Sorry for the rambling but I wish prople were just filled with love and understanding and compassion instead of hate and anger.
“all my grammar/writing assignments in school”
oh I get it now. You’re a child. Your naive and immature way of thinking finally makes sense.
Whatever happened to live and let live?
@samantha what is the meaning of attack? because me simply not supporting something in not an attack, i see if i were saying gays need to wiped off the earth their disgusting or something, like i said i have gay family members and they still come around and we talk and laugh, but they are not upset with me because i don’t agree with their lifestyle. so as i read back i have said nothing attacking gays . but i thing marriage should be between woman and man that’s all , and i mean my guy cousin is a woman not just gay, so i love all people like i said but i still don’t agree with same sex marriages.
@nicole i’m sorry i see my own cousin going thru, but hate is not the word to use with me especially i don’t hate anyone for their choices in life. i have gay family and i love them just the same, but i just don’t agree with the same sex marriages i just think somethings need to remain sacred. i’m sorry for you losing your dad’s love and i don’t agree with that, if my child becomes gay i would still love my child but pray each night that god would intervein. I have a couple of gay friends i know their gay and they know i don’t get down like that. so tha’t why i’m tripping cuz people just attack me like i’m hating on gays and all this when this is so far from the truth.
@holly no, i’m a college grad, going back. sorry
firstly, i have to say i’m really happy that this is such a hot button issue for people… even people i don’t agree with.
secondly, i don’t believe that civil unions and domestic partnerships are the same thing as marriage at all. i’ve been in a domestic partnership (lived with my husband before we were married and covered him under my benefits) and i can tell you that a very clear difference is that i had to pay his benefits with after tax dollars and mine were before tax dollars. now that we’re married, it’s different, i pay both with before tax dollars so the gov’t is getting a smaller chunk of my $. that’s a fundamental difference and disadvantage. and don’t even get me started on the rights of conservatorship differences…
thirdly, as mentioned above, i’m married. i’m a woman married to a man. i’ve said this before and i’ll say it again: my marriage is about love, trust, compromise, faith, teamwork, communication… nowhere on that list will you find “genetalia”. a marriage has little to do with our parts and much more to do with our hearts. i hate when people worry about same sex couples “confusing the kids”. kids understand things on amuch more literal level than adults. they realize the love wayyyyy faster than they realize the sex. adults are the ones who consider the “behind closed doors” part. kids just see a partnership, a loving household, etc. etc.
AAAAAAAAAAA. you know kids are mean these days and believe me i don’t care how much you love your kids this will effect them. look at 50 cents he said his mom being a lesbian confused and he didn’t understand why mom was kissing a woman.
oh my god, did you really just use
“50 cents” (its CENT by the way) as an example of why there shouldnt be gay marriage??! HHAHAHAHA good one…. 😯
toosexy: relax 🙂 Some people interpret a difference in opinion as an attack because they think that if somebody loves them then s/he has to agree with them therefore if this somebody doesn’t agree they think s/he hates them. It’s not your fault. It’s this love implies agreement that is a faulty logic. It’s clear to see when it’s applied to another field.. for example, say, if I am a football lover and a Chargers fan, does it mean that, since you are a baseball lover and a Padres fan, you hate me or I hate you? Of course not. That’s why California voted the way it did. Civil unions are already in place, with all the rights and obligations they have. It might not be nice to say it, but the majority of people think – like the 44th President and his vicepresident think – that marriage is between a man and a woman. If you (and i) are bad then the president and the vice are as well. If they are ok, then we are as well. Saying that we are hateful and they are enlightened is faulty logic.
It was very interesting to read your perspective Nicole.
Toosexy – I’m not intending an attack on you at all – personally, I’m just pointing out a what I see as a gap in your logic. As for kids being mean “these days” – believe me, they were f***ing horrors in my day as well. 😉
BUT, I’m afraid that I disagree with you on the issue of spelling and grammar (I I have to keep double checking I didn’t write “grammer” too). Lack of capitalisation, I’ll grant you as it doesn’t really make a post difficult to understand.
The spelling of English was standardised in the 19th century for a reason – with increased literacy, allowing phonetic spelling would cause confusion. It;s also very unfair on those who may not have English as a first language and the deliberate misuse of words will confuse them and spend more time than is necessary trying to figure out what you’re saying. It also makes online translation services impossible to use.
Everyone makes typos and I personally think some slang, so long as your message is clear or you explain it, is fine.
I was out there cheering with friends to get Yes on 8 stopped. I had the No signs in my yard, No bumper stickers on my car and even went out with a few friends to stick No stickers on Yes on 8 signs. We did so much and fought so hard to make sure that Yes on 8 wouldn’t pass and it literally makes me sick that so many hate breeders can decide how other people live their lives. It’s non of their business what other people are doing with their life and how they choose to live it and it pisses me off that the right wing moralists decided to take yet more rights away from people- where are they going to drawl the line? Hitler’s ideas sounded good to the country in need too and look where that got us.
They don’t understand when they are of the age until you explain it to them. I did, and when I told my daughter, she was about 3 at the time, all she cared about was that I loved her, that was all that mattered to her, and when she went into kindergarten and they were doing a show and tell about family, (just pictures) Kids asked her “so you have 2 moms”? and they all thought she was lucky. And @Too Sexy… I didn’t choose this life. It was chosen for me, it is the way that I am. Did you choose to be straight or did that happen naturally to you? I am not condemning you for your choices. I am not accusing you of hate, I am accusing you of intolerance. You can have 50 gay people in your circle of family and friends, but until you know how hard it is personally, then you will never have a clue. Kids kill themselves every day because they don’t feel like they belong, because the people that are supposed to love and support them turn their backs. They become homeless, and prostitutes and worse. If my daughter turned out to be gay, I would love her the same obviously but it would devastate me because I don’t ever want her to go through the same hard road as I did. Not with all the hate and bigotry in this world.
@mairead i have to say i don’t care one cent for correct anything on here i’m typing in between working , i make a’s on my assignment in my class so please i’m blogging have fun, if you can’t read then bypass noone else is grading paper, like i said i’m using informal enlish not formal which is what your referring to i should know since we’re working on this right now in class. i’m having fun right now.
Thanks Mairead, I really appreciate it coming from you. I am one of your biggest admirers on this site. You, Bodhi, VdanteV, Anni and Codzilla. You guys always have me watching for your comments, lol
Actually “toosexy”, you’re not blogging. You’re posting comments.
I tend to think that people only type as well as they’re capable of, especially when facing criticism for it.
College grad my ass. Clown college, maybe? Oh wait I get it, you’re one of those people that’s real proud of themselves for graduating from beauty school or the local community college that gives out degrees so long as you show up.
As for children being “confused”–well, my daughter is four and she’s never been confused about same sex relationships. Because she already knows that sometimes girls like girls and sometimes boys like boys, but just because something is different doesn’t make it scary, wrong, or deserving of ridicule. She’s not afraid of something unfamiliar to her, be a food, or a new idea.
There was a time when keeping slaves was not only legal but sanctioned by the Bible. We as a society evolved enough to realize it was wrong. There was a time when black people were, under our own constitution, considered 3/5 of a human being – we saw the error in that as well. Unfortunately the religious right, who seem to think that the Bible is set in stone and should be the only way for all of us to live our lives, have this country in a stranglehold. They are just as dangerous and ignorant as the Taliban leaders our troops are fighting in the Middle East. If you want to be a judgmental bigot in the privacy of your own home, go for it. But keep your God out of our legal system.
You know what, it’s going to be okay for “us gays” like too sexy put it. I wouldn’t even be here if laws had stayed in place such as no interracial marraige ( my parents are interracial), if women had no voice and blacks had only stayed as slaves. All like our good nation intended, so I believe that there will indeed be change, just probably not in my lifetime. Another thing, my 16 year old daughter is a treasure. She is smart, articulate, understanding and a gentle and tolerant soul. She judges no one. When no one played with the handi-capable kids in her preschool and her class, when no one would play with the little girl with autism and no one would even say hi to, and they wouldn’t even touch the child with a disfigured arm, my daughter was always there to console and play with each and every one. So I think 😉 “us gays” make good parents too.
Just to clarify toosexy -I’m actually using informal English too, otherwise I wouldn’t use any contraction.
as it hapens, im her too have fun two. im not tring to stop yu or anywon else from having fun, honest. 😉
Ah now Holly – all due respect to those who are at least trying to better themselves at community college – it’s better than sitting around or being stuck in a low-paid job that you’ve no interest in. 😛
And believe me I’m very thankful for the beauty-school who train the people who do my once-a-year-Dermalogica facial 😉
@holly yes i went to a tecnical college and it landed me a good job at a hospital which in turn landed me a very good position, and i decided to go back to a university to go for my degree, and stop being so hostile, or don’t talk to me period. and look at you being angry at techinal shcool grads,hypocrite i tell you, and you want respect.
@Too Sexy: Well I hope you live firmly by the bible and all it’s commandments or you would not be following God’s law either. There’s not many people on this earth who can say with surety that they do and always have. I hope you have never coveted thy neighbor’s husbands, or never had sex before marraige because let me tell you.. Those without sin. Can you honestly, truthfully tell me that you have never broken ANY of God’s commandments? Have you followed the bible religiously, to a T? ( BTW no pun intended 😳 )
@nicole b i’ve already answered that i said i was not perfect go back and reread, i said that, but just because i’m not perfect doesn’t mean i have to support things i don’t believe in, the things i am working on are wrong and just because i’m dealing with them don’t mean i will try and justify them it’s still wrong and i am far from perfect but i am still striving i don’t curse as much, i would have been calling names and cursing like a fool on here, i don’t drink anymore,but all us have some sin that’s exactly why i said i don’t judge you guys at all. i’m not perfect and my sin in no less than yours. i love all of you. because people still loved me when i was deep in sin and even now. so who am i too judge. 😀
@Mairead
No personal disrespect meant to you–I know a lot of people make something of themselves and use those resources to their fullest and I have a lot of respect for that. What I don’t have respect for, is people who are too assbackwards to even realize how ignorant they are. Or people who profess to be educated but can’t even be bothered to type like it. See all this punctuation toosexy? Its not hard, seriously. I did it the first time I typed this out, no edits needed.
@holly no disrespect to you but your like a lot of folks who talk or type before speaking i copied your last comment to microsoft word just because your talking and you have grammer issues all in your last comment and you call me azzbackward. make sure to check your own stuff first , we still cool though!
toosexy, i think it´s a sign of respect for the other readers on here when one tries his/her best to write correctly. i even google some words because i am not a native speaker.
back on topic: i am bisexual. i love people, not gender. and i am not ashamed of it at all, i am proud. because i can see through the stereotypes of gender and truly appreciate the person and mind behind it.
Ah no offence taken Holly, 😀
I suppose I should explain that I’m from a small country where technical colleges and universities all have similar educational standards. With a country as vast as the US there probably greater scope for differences.
But in fairness to toosexy, her punctuation wasn’t that bad. The deliberate misuse of their/there/they’re and your/you’re is a just a real bugbear of mine, (as is blind-creationism, but I said I’d let that one go 😉 )
EDIT – hear hear Anni. Just back on topic, I think that it’s colossally unfair that committed long-term couples cannot get the same legal protection and tax benefits – although of course they should share the same responsibilities. If people like Peaches Geldof can get married on a whim in Vegas and enjoy all the legal benefits worldwide – then why should gay couples be allowed to have a similar binding contract? Call it a Civil Union if we must, but have equal rights.
Now I understand that this would have a very significant impact on child custody and adoption. As for teasing – to be absolutely blunt, kids and adults will bully who they want to bully, if there isn’t an excuse they’ll make one up. Bullying shouldn’t be the reason not to treat all people fairly and equally.
As a Republican who voted for Obama as well as YES on Prop 8, I am rather dismayed that so many comments here reflect the opinion that a Yes vote is an endorsement of bigotry or discrimination. Here’s a useful analogy: I am a registered Civil Engineer in California where a law called a Title Act prohibits people from calling themselves an “engineer”, for purposes of advertising services, who have not undergone the education, training and testing necessary to be legally qualified to design machines, buildings or infrastructure, which, if done improperly, could result in loss of human lives and property.
Believe me, there are MANY folks; contractors, drafters, technicians and the like, who, while NOT a legal engineer, want to CALL themselves such because they believe their experience and education is MORE than sufficient to do so. It doesn’t matter! There are legal requirements involved. When same-sex couples, whose love and sincerity I do not doubt, want to adopt the term “marriage” in describing their unions, they are usurping the right to do so in the face of, 1. The legal requirement, and 2. The fundamental purpose of such unions, which is (IMO, yes)to provide an IDEAL environment to conceive, bear and nurture children. Obviously, MANY heterosexual marriages are FAR from ideal; I understand all of that, but to abandon the ideal, is not being “open-minded” and “tolerant”, it is to be short-sighted, monumentally presumptious and an AFFRONT to those who consider a “marriage” to be a covenant between man, god and the state, that they will live up to the highest standard of love, kindness and nurturing, and that their union will benefit not only themselves but the whole community. Same-sex couples have “domestic partnership”, why do they want to call themselves “married”. I just do not see the benefit.
@vdantev it would be full of murder, theives, no order.
@toosexy: Allow me to introduce your superstitious mind to a thing called the Draconian Code, a system of law made by man to govern himself which predates the Bible by about 1500 years.
Allow me also to reference you to the Law of Hammurabi, which came 700 years later. We were ruling ourselves quite well before the Great Invisible Boogeyman and his fearful children came to be and poisoned the well.
Religion and religious fervor has proven to be nothing but an excuse for people to control others, typically through fear, terror, repression, ostracism, and execution. When a child believes in the Easter Bunny it’s cute and playful, but not for an adult. We’re overdue for the human species to ascend the learning curve and grow the hell up already.
If a black man can be president in a nation that was founded by white men that had black men as slaves, then people should be able to marry whoever the hell they want. obviously times have changed… the government needs to mind its own business… 🙄
I have enjoyed talking to you guys i visit here sometimes, but i hardly ever post. Although we got off to a rocky start i really enjoyed conversing with you guys. 8)
This ruling should be overturned. It’s unethical to deny people rights based on their sexuality.
Take care toosexy – you handled yourself very graciously I thought.
Rob, I found it interesting to read your perspective as well, even though I remain a wary of bringing religion into a civil matter – I still maintain that marriage within a religious institution is one thing and the law should respect that – but the law itself should be above any religious contradictions.
Your analogy is interesting to me as it’s similar to a situation in Ireland that anyone (including engineers) can technically call themselves an architects and I once read a trite letter by someone with an engineering diploma who demanded to be regarded as an architect and that the Law Library of Ireland upheld this view. ( it does no such thing 🙄 And you should see what he throws down on paper! Eugh).
Um, Dante, didn’t Draco live about the 6th Century BC give or take a couple hundred years? Or are we thinking of the same Greek fella?
Here’s what to do if you think we need to “protect Marriage”
1.) Outlaw divorce, or at least tax the hell out of it. Better yet, how about a 6-month mandatory state-sponsored waiting-period before divorce proceedings are allowed to begin. 12 months if children are involved.
2.) require Mandatory state-sponsored marriage counseling during this waiting period, as well as 6- 12 months of “Couples Education” BEFORE couples are allowed to marry in the first place.
3.) Outlaw television programs like “Wife-swap” “Who wants to marry a millionaire”, “The bachelor/bachelorette” and any show that treats marriage like a game.
4.) Make infidelity a federal offense, with mandatory prison time.
If people really want to “protect marriage”, then DO IT!
Monogamous gays who are already living together and have blended their lives together are NOT a threat to the institution of marriage.
They are celebrating it.
I am married with two kids and I don’t believe in same sex married. Marriage is between a man and women. What gives anyone the right to change such a sacred thing. everyone is more into doing what is equally and right. WHat about paligamist? what about their rights? Where is this going to end. Isn’t anything sacred anymore? There is nothing wrong with a civil union or life-partner. Keep traditional married sacred. And that does not make me ignorant and closed minded.
I am so heartbroken. I have been working on the No on 8 Campaign for months. We seemed to have more people voting for no. The polls were saying we are ahead. I worked as a poll worker and I live in a conservative area. I get to look @ the ballots when the night is over. Seeing the yes votes was very crushing. I’ve never been so sick to be an American.
wow..
just when I thought all you american folks were actually going to get it together.. i see this.
From a non american, I am disgusted, this shouldn’t been an issue. NOTHING SHOULD EVER BE BASED ON THE BIBLE..the bible is a book that has been manipulated in order to instill fear in people.. not only that it is consistently tailored to suit the needs and whims of the leaders of the institution. There will come a time when we are all going to have to really come together. Ok so the worlds economy is going down the drain, wars are being waged for no reason, woman and children are being massacred, the environment turning against us..but gay MARRIAGE lets ban that that’s really going to save our species.. WHAT IS IT GOING TO TAKE FOR US TO EVOLVE AS HUMAN BEINGS ..its 2008 so shouldn’t we have attained a higher level of consciousness by now .seriously.. this should not have been allowed..
I am sorry to all of you in California right now
Separation of Church and State.
You want to have a CHURCH SERVICE in addition to getting a marriage license from the STATE, don’t be gay/lesbian.
You want to get married and don’t want or need the CHURCH SERVICE. Be gay/lesbian/non-religous and go to the STATE registry office like everyone else has to anyway.
Marriage is a STATE institution and religious beliefs have no place in the licensing for marriage whatsoever. You can’t be married without the state that is separate from religion.
We should all be equal in this country. Who you love is as superfluous as skin color. We checked off one thing on our tolerance ‘to do’ list, now we keep working on making races equal and start making things right for same sex couples so we can check that off too.
Robb–So those whose marriages do not produce children like say Jay Leno, under your philosphy, they should also be denied the use of the term marriage.
I find this philosophy so morally bankrupt. I live next door to a couple in a loveless marriage that yell and scream at each other in front of God and their kids. But thier relationship is more valuable and righteous than a gay couples?
The hipocrisy of Pick and Choose Christians at work.
With nearly 43 million dollars from the Mormons and the Catholics going to this campaign, I believe that if there is a Jesus, he must be disgusted with all of you throwing about his name in front of such bile. And with that much money coming from religious organizations going toward government issues, I believe the lines between church and state have been severely blurred. It seems to me that the time has come to start taxing all religious organizations. If they have that much money to toss about for something of this nature, instead of say helping the homeless or sick children, they have enough money to pay taxes on thier holdings.
@ ok
POLYGAMY is illegal. It has been since before Utah was admitted into the Union. Mormons giving up polygamy was part of the deal so that Utah could gain statehood. They gave it up, and there was a religious splintering.
The state can’t do anything about those abused women because they aren’t actually married in the eyes of the state, so the state has no grounds to do anything about it unless the woman files a police complaint. Which they don’t, because they live in walled off communities where people who don’t belong to the sect don’t live, so can’t help.
Interestingly, these “married” polygamous women draw on welfare as “unemployed single parents.”
“The problem with religion, is people pick and choose which things to follow, and decide to forget the rest of it. It shouldn’t work like that. If you are going to claim to be of a certain religion, you need to follow all of the rules, not just the ones you like.”
I disagree entirely Samantha. The bible is too contradictory to follow all of the rules. I choose to be a Christian based on being raised by a family that were charitable and loving, and because I love that Jesus worked tirelessly for social justice. I belong to the United Church of Canada where we have fought hard within our congregations to determine that a loving faith includes the dignity of all. As such we happily marry ANYONE who wants to be married. I will refuse to believe what the right-wing Christians believe, I do NOT have to follow their rules.
Wow. Just…wow. I wish some of you (and I am not going to bother singling anyone out) could really REALLY stand back & look at what you’re saying. I wish there was some sort of mind device that could erase any and all previous teachings for just 5 minutes while you take a good look at the things you say.
You would be appalled.
@ Rob
You’re talking about California prohibiting professional misrepresentation that a person cannot be aware of outwardly. Something you couldn’t know about a person posing as professional without a lot of digging through a person’s background. Misrepresentation of education and job status is NOTHING like being able to say you’re married.
Same sex couples are not misrepresenting themselves in anyway…unless you think that they don’t really have feelings of love toward each other and are just trying to get a tax break so that they can “give to the man.” Your argument would make more sense if they were aliens who donned human suits to live on earth. 🙄
I’m sorry I didn’t read through all the comments and have one long condensed comment 😉
I am ashamed to be a Californian. I truly am. It’s not so much a bout calling it marriage tome-that’s not what this was about. It was about giving millions or people the same rights everyone else has. TO give them a chance to have their love recognized by the government and society. Is that so bad?
And the lies about it being mandatory in schools-that was too low for words.
I’m ashamed to be a Californian, and I’m ashamed to be an American because the federal government refuses to address this blatant discrimination of its people.
I though some of you involved in this discussion might find this helpful. 😉
http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=213813
Yes Polygamy is illegal now. Just like same sex marriage. Just wait, this will be an issue for palgimist in a few years. They will want the same equal rights. We are not saying that gay people can’t be in a loving relationship or they can’t have a family, we are simply saying no to marriage. marriage is between a man and women, why are you trying to change what has been a tradition for centuries. And to everyone who is appalled or ashamed to be an american go a visit some other countries where people have no say in anything, and be thankful that we are trying to actually keep something sacred. Please be gay and love who you love, adopt babies and have a wonderful union. and stop trying to fight for something that the voters have voted YES on.
Hey Ron-
No, I don’t think that a childless couple should be denied the use of the term “married”; I think that was implicit in my comment, when I spoke of the “ideal”; meaning, the IDEAL environment for children to be raised. Additionally, when I hear this rebuttal (that of “what about childless couples?”) I am inclined to say that nearly EVERYONE, married, single, gay, straight…we all have an influence over the next generation; namely, those who are children at present, whether we have biologically begotten kids or not. Also, (responding to others) I made no allusion to organized religion in my comment (god, yes; as in a “higher power”, not religion), so I see it as disingenuous of those who subsequently remarked on issues of the bible, religion, etc.
Also, RE: “hello”‘s remark as to my feelings about love: I totally respect the many ways in which love is manifest; in fact, having been in an ever-increasingly loving relationship with the same woman for 22 years, I would NEVER presume to deny the authenticity of someone elses feelings. I still recall how much it hurt, 22 years ago, when after telling my Dad that I was in love with that person, he skeptically remarked: “Well, sometimes you THINK you’re in love, when actually what you’re feeling is something else.”
I have thought about what he said for all of these 22 years; and, while he may have underestimated what I was feeling, he had a very good point: What is love? Is it just a feeling? Something more? It seems we humans ought to have many, many more words to express that single feeling of “being in love”. And I can understand why ANY couple would want to attach to themselves the term that, in English, we use to express the highest degree of committment – marriage. I understand that THIS is one reason why gay couples want to ascribe to their relationships this term. I really do get it. I just disagree that my definition of marriage can ever include two people of the same gender. -Robb
Oh dear… I used to debate this all the time.
I’m bisexual, so I have my own reasons for being appalled by this, but I do believe marriage to be a civil right. Not so long ago, interracial marriage was illegal. Now we know how absurd that was. I could spend a long time debating this, but nobody’s mind will change, and I don’t want to get angry. But I do look forward so much to the day when we can look back like we did on race issues, which are no different, and say, “Wasn’t that crazy when we didn’t allow gays civil rights?”
@ Robb (sorry I forgot the other B last time)
I’m curious about what gives rise to your personal definition of what constitutes what a marriage should be? Is it religious or something else? I’m really interested if your belief is something other than religion or a tradition that is derived from religion.
My biggest issue is that people like to mix religion and religious values into law. I, personally, think that we should stick to original intent and the founding principal of separating religion and state, unless it is something that permanently limits or excludes a group of people from a right that the majority posses. To me, religion doesn’t belong because in America everyone has or believes something different and we should come to a conclusion that includes the whole…if that makes any sense. Really it’s a thesis topic, and I did that already on a different subject, so I don’t want to do another one.
@ok
Perhaps FLDS and Muslim polygamists will bring up their practices and beliefs in the future. However, I believe that their battle will be very different from that of homosexuals due to the prevalence of spousal (and sometimes child) abuse within the practice of polygamy. I am in no way saying that is the rule, but the mere existance of abuse is something that makes an issue extremely hard for people to support.
How sickeningly disturbing; Reading some of the responses here and the ignorance and hypocrisy that it’s rife with just makes me question why people are so angry at the educational system the way it is now – it was a screw up when you were in school.
MARRIAGE, the traditional term to which so many P&C Christians seem to refer to when referencing their reason for such hatred and bigotry, was never a union between man and woman. It was a contract between one family and another. The woman became the man’s property, not his equal in love and respect, not his spiritual life-mate, and definitely not his “wife” in the sense that people like to think of today. Marriage was also never about children. Adam and Eve were NEVER meant to procreate, first and foremost. Some people like to forget that fact when spouting that tired “Adam & Eve, not Adam and Steve” line.
Marriage as we know the institution today isn’t a religious one as much as it is a governmental one. We file taxes as married, we legally change our names because we got married, we bequeath our assets to our spouses. When a church gets involved, they are overstepping their bounds, both legally, ethically, and morally. If a church wants to forbid marrying two women or two men in their houses of worship, so be it. However, they should have no say as to whether those same individuals want to get married in a park, court house, or hotel banquet hall.
Finally, some of the biggest opponents to homosexual marriages are those whom have abused the sanctity of marriage themselves. Or, as I like to call them, The heterosexuals who thought marriage was so nice, they had to do it twice and thrice.
IT IS MY RIGHT to VOTE and I voted against gay marriage in 2000 and again voted YES ON 8 yesterday!!!!!!
Maybe in 100 years, eh!
all men (and women!!) are equal and deserve to be treated so.
we have come a long way in this country, but we still have a looooong way to go.
one day we will make it there though, i know it.
hopefully soon!
“I am treated as evil by those who feel persecuted because they are not allowed to force me to believe as they do.”
–anonymous
i have two gay cousins and i love them dearly so what your saying is so irrevelant.
You love them dearly but you don’t believe they should be given the same rights as you. Your actions are speaking louder than your words.
Marriage was traditionally between a man and a woman. It was also traditionally between a man and many women. Women were traditionally treated as property, valued only for their ability to birth sons and keep the family wealth within the bloodlines. Traditionally, those who were not the majority culture (be that culture Egyptian, Roman, English, white American, etc.) were marginalized and forced into slavery, indentured servitude, or (at the very least) a sub par living environment (ghettos, anyone?).
Traditionally, if you weren’t white, you were deemed barbaric. Traditionally, if you exhibited any signs of mental problems or physical problems, you were locked up in an institution and forgotten about. Traditionally, if you were a woman, you didn’t vote and had no legal standing outside of “your father’s daughter” or “your husband’s wife.” Traditionally, if you worked in a factory, you didn’t get to say anything about the dangerous and risky environment you worked in.
Just because we have always done something the same way does not mean it’s the RIGHT way. And not to get all patriotic here, but this is AMERICA. This place, of all places in the world, should recognize that the traditional way isn’t always the right way. Our country has a long way to go and we’ve burnt a lot of bridges and hurt a lot of people in our past (Native Americans, anyone?), but we have to evolve and we know we’re capable of it if enough people stand up and demand it.
We evolved when we decided that black children could go to school with white children. We evolved when we decided that accused criminals should not have to languish in prisons before going to trial — heck, we evolved when we decided there should BE a trial. We evolved when we decided that we didn’t want women forced into narrow and rigid roles with no agency of their own. We have evolved before and we will do it again. Socially, culturally, we will evolve. We will change and we will become a better nation for it.
We have to stop attempting to legislate religious texts. This country was not founded by a select religion with the hopes of instilling a theocracy. This country was founded by people who had just gone through the Enlightenment. They were deists, not Christians. They did not legislate the Bible, nor did they intend for future leaders to do so. A legal document (the Treaty of Tripoli) stated explicitly that in no way was America founded as a Christian nation. The Constitution states: “No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.” They did not intend for protestant Christian to become the socially required religion of America’s rulers.
Some say that marriage is a sacred religious thing and that the religion should choose who’s allowed to have a marriage. Fine. Then we should treat marriage with the same legal recognition as getting baptized or taking communion: something you do at church that has absolutely NO legal bearing. Civil unions/domestic partnerships are not recognized legally in the same way that marriages are. There are hundreds of benefits afforded to a marriage that unions do not receive.
If you say that marriage is only for the religious, then we should strip marriage of all its government benefits. Civil unions should be made as legally valuable as marriages currently all and every person in the country that is married will received a letter: “Notice: You are no longer recognized as married by the government. Your partnership is now a civil union.” All those forms that have a blank box for marriage would now have a blank box for civil union. All those politicians and celebrities who give exclusives about their marriages will now give exclusives about their civil unions.
The fact of the matter is, marriage is not a religious thing. It’s wrapped up in our legislation and tax codes so unless you are willing to remove those benefits and transfer them to civil unions, you should not be allowed to decide that marriage is only between a man and a woman.
ETA: And, um, I didn’t realize this was a such a TL;DR for Celebitchy until I posted! Sorry. But it’s really disheartening to read things like that. I’m not gay, but I believe in equal rights for all people. I know most of us will get there in time. There will always be hate and divisiveness, but I refuse to be a part of it and I will do what I can in my little way to say that it isn’t right. It’s not right and as a nation, we must change our attitude.
By the way, I highly recommend For The Bible Tells Me So.
There are few things as pathetic as the bigots on these posts trying to convince everyone they’re not bigots.
Get a dictionary and look up the word. No, you don’t love your gay friends, no believing in a twisted angry version of God doesn’t make your bigotry acceptable and NO forcing it down peoples throats as your opinion doesn’t remove the wrongness from the way you’ve chosen to go through life as someone who would deny others the same rights they themselves enjoy. There is no excuse. None. You don’t believe in gay marriage, then don’t marry a gay person. Plenty of gay people don’t believe in what you are either but no one is trying to stop you being a closed minded self rightous ass, are they ?
@ so what, toosexy, and anyone else on the anti-gay side of the fence
Yes it’s your right to vote. It’s your right to make a decision based on what you think a 2000 y/o dead Palestinian implied (or a man in the sky), that will never affect you, only them. Sure, I’ll concede, that it is your right. But only because it’s on the ballot. The point I think we’re all making is that the government shouldn’t be putting that on the ballot. I’m sure they voted yes for slavery, but that doesn’t make that any less awful. Nobody can help being gay. Say what you want, but the science and experience are on my side.
If two people that you think shouldn’t get married do, let’s say they are both christian and hetero, do you believe you have the right to legally intervene and keep them from having the right to get married? If not then what’s the difference? If it’s bc the marriage in question is gay, then why do you think you have the right to control a minority? How is that different than controlling what black people did?
And to anyone using the bible as your reason, yes it says in Leviticus that a man shall not lie with another man. A few verses earlier (11:10-12) it goes on about how eating shellfish is also an “abomination” putting it on even footing with gay sex. Both are “abominations”. So have you ever had lobster? Crab? maybe some shrimp? What an abomination. Must be great to pick and choose to justify bigotry.
Well that was democracy at work. The people spoke. Calling them bigots is like calling for those who did not vote for Obama racist. Why put the issue to vote if you are going to call those who support it bigots? Gay people should sit down and think about the reasons they want to get married. Be gay by all means, but please don’t stuff it down people’s throats.
Oh great. We’re back in the Dark Ages.
Would somebody please explain to me how two people of the same sex getting married is going to endanger the whole institution of marriage? And spare me the phony marriage = children argument. Because if that was the case, every heterosexual marriage that is childless by choice or otherwise would be invalid.
@Tim
“Calling them bigots is like calling for those who did not vote for Obama racist.”
That would not be the case unless everyone who didn’t vote for Obama did so SOLELY because he’s black. Prop 8 was voted on solely because the people who voted for it were opposed to homosexuality in the same way the racists in question voted for McCain solely because Obama is black. So really the only way your argument makes sense is if everyone who voted for McCain was racist and I can’t see that being true. But if you wanna go ahead and call every Republican a racist, go ahead. (Forgive all the times I said “solely” in that paragraph; that’s just lazy of me 🙄 )
“Why put the issue to vote if you are going to call those who support it bigots?”
I didn’t. What’s the point of saying that? None of us, even the people voting for it, singlehandedly put that issue up. That doesn’t even make sense. Plus voting against allowing a minority to have rights is kinda bigot-like. 😉
“Gay people should sit down and think about the reasons they want to get married.”
So should straight people. Because I guarantee you it’s for the same reasons. Do you really think gay people just have some hidden agenda for marrying? Or do you think because they’re gay, they for some reason don’t think their decisions through. And by that logic, Las Vegas chapels should be shut down, cos straight people are making rash decisions about marriage all the time. Bottom line, gay people get married for the same reason as straight people: because they love each other.
” Be gay by all means, but please don’t stuff it down people’s throats.”
And with a statement like that, how can you expect not to be called a bigot? Wanting the right to get married is the same as stuffing it down people’s throats? I’m gonna have to disagree. The equality is what each of your statements are missing. I promise you, Tim, gay people are just like straight people in that they want to love freely, have families, and have the RIGHT to get married. Maybe it wouldn’t be such a prevalent issue if it weren’t an issue at all. Stop keeping rights from gays and I’m sure there will be a lot less “stuffing down throats” and advocating a civil right.
‘be gay’ what an idiot, as if there is a choice.
I believe that everyone has a right to choose, either way….
Be grateful that you are all allowed to vote and discuss and most of all to be able to live with the person that you love and want. There are others in many,many places which till today are not allowed even in a whisper that they are different.
Please be grateful, and live to fight, to vote and to love another day, Even with the passing of Prop 8 you are still not vilified like most other people living elsewhere. Here where I am, it is an offense that will carry a jail sentence if you are found guilty to be in a same sex relationship. So you learn to keep you head down and protest with your heart…sigh…
@TM
*hugs* I hope things get better where you live. I’m so sorry that’s how it is in some places. Don’t give up hope.
as per ophelia…
yeah really. why do you people think that god judges you worse for being gay than for eating crab? just because one of them “feels grosser” to you than the other doesn’t mean that god has a slant on it. for all we know, god is the MOST pissed over people not honoring the sabbath. that means every time you were filling out paperwork or doing research for school on a sunday, god was angry.
there’s no 1-10 scale on what makes god the most angry. and you can’t decide by your personal feelings because everyone has different personal feelings.
some very interesting opinions here. Im actually in Australia where gay marriage is illegal but I am very much of the opinion that it should be allowed.
Who am I (or anyone else) to say that two people who love each other and want to make a commitment to each other arent allowed to do so?
I dont want to use the old well my such and such is gay so my experience is line…. but I am going to lol
I have a family member that came out after 25 yrs of heterosexual marriage. She is now in a long term relationship with a wonderful woman and they have a daughter concieved via IVF. They were “married” many years ago. By married I meant they had a commitment ceremony and they and the rest of our family think of them as married. Unfortunately should anything happen and they were to break up or the one of them that is the biological parent of their child were to pass away – what happens then? the other one of them has no rights to any sort of compensation, custody/guardianship of the child, the house they share and pay off together with only one income..
these are the things that need to be addressed – not God and the church.
As for their daughter, she is lucky enough to have two mums and so far hasnt noticed any difference in her family life compared to her friends. My daughter also hasnt commented on her cousin having two mums.
Another thing to add is that I am a single parent and should I therefore be judged and have my rights taken away since I dont fit the “ideal” description for raising children?
It is just plain wrong to take away peoples civil rights and to treat people differently based on their sexual identity.
So does Prop 8 mean that all the couples who legally married in the last few months will now have their marriage annulled without their consent?
If so, that is the most disgusting abuse of civil rights.
The first of many lawsuits against prop 8 have been filed. The legality of even having a proposition on the ballot that so blatantly takes away the legal rights of a minority is one question going to court among many.
California attorney general Jerry Brown has said the marriages performed before 11/5 are valid and will remain so. This case will probably make it’s way to the Supreme court in time where precedent will settle it in favor of civil marriage being everyones right. 😀
the truth is, marriage is a legal term. if you held a religious marriage ceremony without first getting a government regulated marriage license, it would not be recognized by the state. that would be a religious marriage. marriage may appear to be a religious institution since christianity is the majority religion in the US, but regardless of whether god is a part of your ceremony, the marriage aspect is defined by the government.
it may be detrimental to the cause that the term marriage has such strong roots in the church. perhaps marriage should never have been used as a term for a state recognized union. if that were the case, people who had ceremonies in the church would be married while everyone else would be civil partners. marriage would simply indicate a religious partnership. but since marriage IS the term used for ALL unions recognized by the state, it is only fair that the same term is attributed to same-sex unions.
Robb- as for your comparison of the fight for equal terminology to the misrepresentation of skills and education, i find it not only ridiculous but offensive. the two situations are so completely different from one another i don’t even know where to begin.
if it was your way of implying that gay marriage causes serious harm to people (children i assume?) the way that operating a business under faulty pretenses is, then you really need to check your facts and think it through. recent studies have actually shown that children raised by same-sex couples tend to have HIGHER self-esteem and healthier adjustment than average. this is likely due to the fact that many same-sex parents have faced discrimination in their lives and in light of that, have learned to be more open and understanding of their children.
as for Obama being against gay marriage, it is true that he favors civil-unions over marriages. so did Hillary. so did Edwards. the only candidate on either side who supported full same-sex marriage was Kucinich. while i do find this sad, i also don’t necessarily take the outward political position of these individuals to be completely indicative of their personal beliefs. the fact of the matter is, if Obama had stated his support for same-sex marriage as opposed to civil unions, he probably wouldn’t have won. campaign strategy plays a huge role is those kinds of things.
from a personal stand point, i am a canadian lesbian with permanent residency in the US. i grew up back and forth between the two countries and while i currently reside in canada, i spend significantly more time visiting my US home than my original Canadian hometown (where nearly all of my Canadian family is). because of this (and because our Canadian election last month was a huge disappointment, albeit an expected one), the US election is very important to me and unfortunately as only a resident, i do not have the right to vote.
in Canada, i have every right to legally marry whomever i love. and i am very grateful for that fact. but the idea that when i do get married, if i choose to move back to the states, or even when i am simply there to visit my mother and friends, my marriage won’t be recognized is absolutely terrifying.
As a history buff, I couldn’t help be want to share that the Constitution does not provide for separation of church and state anywhere.
What it does say is that the state will not set up any official state religion.
Don’t assume that every gay/bi person is in favor of gay marriage. I’m bi and I’m not in favor of it. Why? Because marriage is between a man and a woman. Make up a concept called whatever you want, such as Xmerlion, define it as a same-sex union identical to marriage, and I’ll be in favor of it. Words still mean something.
@Johnoboy: As a history buff, I couldn’t help be want to share that the Constitution does not provide for separation of church and state anywhere.
The Constitution also doesn’t make provisions for a reasonable expectation of privacy either, So I’ll be down to your house later today to pick up whatever personal records you have lying around. And no, you can’t stop me from doing so since there’s nothing in the Constitution to prevent me.
See how dangerous that line of thinking can be?
@ vdantev
You crack me up. Always a witty post. I bet you’re a riot in real life.
For all those people who said that they were raised to believe marriage was between a man and a woman…
I was raised to believe that touching people with bare hands spreads bad joojoo around. Should we legislate it too?
@hello: If I’m well-rested and the brain cells are all firing in the right direction; otherwise- not so much 😆
Hey lets all call people bigots and idiots. Because in the quiet of their minds the draw will be to our side. We’ll be brilliant persuasions an all will be spiffy neato an true. 😯