Comments on: Kathryn Bigelow defends ‘ZDT’ torture scenes: ‘Depiction is not endorsement’ http://www.celebitchy.com/274800/kathryn_bigelow_defends_zdt_torture_scenes_depiction_is_not_endorsement/ Stylish celebrity escapism Sat, 25 May 2013 08:48:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Xera http://www.celebitchy.com/274800/kathryn_bigelow_defends_zdt_torture_scenes_depiction_is_not_endorsement/#comment-13141384 Xera Fri, 18 Jan 2013 16:43:56 +0000 http://www.celebitchy.com/?p=274800#comment-13141384 @ Mira You don't get it, read the link I've given, torture hasn't provided actionable intelligence to capture Ben Laden, that part of the movie is a piece of fiction @ Mira
You don’t get it, read the link I’ve given, torture hasn’t provided actionable intelligence to capture Ben Laden, that part of the movie is a piece of fiction

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]]> By: Cinnamon http://www.celebitchy.com/274800/kathryn_bigelow_defends_zdt_torture_scenes_depiction_is_not_endorsement/#comment-13140081 Cinnamon Fri, 18 Jan 2013 01:58:09 +0000 http://www.celebitchy.com/?p=274800#comment-13140081 which is why she is not making a political statement on the use of torture. (she could also be playing neutral for press/pr reasons too though) which is why she is not making a political statement on the use of torture.
(she could also be playing neutral for press/pr reasons too though)

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]]> By: Mira http://www.celebitchy.com/274800/kathryn_bigelow_defends_zdt_torture_scenes_depiction_is_not_endorsement/#comment-13139933 Mira Thu, 17 Jan 2013 22:47:57 +0000 http://www.celebitchy.com/?p=274800#comment-13139933 @Xera - I'm not saying anything about the effectiveness of torture. I'm just saying that it was sadly a part of the war on terror history and we cannot make it go away. Whether or not it was effective to capture OBL is another debate. KB has included that part of history in ZDT. That's all. She is not giving a message on the effectiveness of torture or lack thereof. Neither is she saying that torture led to capturing OBL. It was one of the many factors that played a role, it was not the key factor. Some critics, however are criticizing the movie for what it is not. They are unnecessarily arguing that the movie has taken a pro-torture stance. At least I didn't see it that way. The movie does not explicitly say that torture caught OBL, but I see that it's being read that way. @Xera – I’m not saying anything about the effectiveness of torture. I’m just saying that it was sadly a part of the war on terror history and we cannot make it go away. Whether or not it was effective to capture OBL is another debate. KB has included that part of history in ZDT. That’s all. She is not giving a message on the effectiveness of torture or lack thereof. Neither is she saying that torture led to capturing OBL. It was one of the many factors that played a role, it was not the key factor. Some critics, however are criticizing the movie for what it is not. They are unnecessarily arguing that the movie has taken a pro-torture stance. At least I didn’t see it that way. The movie does not explicitly say that torture caught OBL, but I see that it’s being read that way.

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]]> By: Xera http://www.celebitchy.com/274800/kathryn_bigelow_defends_zdt_torture_scenes_depiction_is_not_endorsement/#comment-13139834 Xera Thu, 17 Jan 2013 21:10:32 +0000 http://www.celebitchy.com/?p=274800#comment-13139834 @ Mira She didn't narrate the story, torture wasn't effective: 'Zero Dark Thirty' Wrong On Torture, Top Senators Say http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/13/zero-dark-thirty-torture_n_2288471.html "WASHINGTON -- The portrayal of torture leading to the U.S. killing of terrorist leader Osama bin Laden in the new movie "Zero Dark Thirty" is bogus, top senators on the Intelligence and Armed Services committees told The Huffington Post" @ Mira
She didn’t narrate the story, torture wasn’t effective:

‘Zero Dark Thirty’ Wrong On Torture, Top Senators Say

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/13/zero-dark-thirty-torture_n_2288471.html
“WASHINGTON — The portrayal of torture leading to the U.S. killing of terrorist leader Osama bin Laden in the new movie “Zero Dark Thirty” is bogus, top senators on the Intelligence and Armed Services committees told The Huffington Post”

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]]> By: Xera http://www.celebitchy.com/274800/kathryn_bigelow_defends_zdt_torture_scenes_depiction_is_not_endorsement/#comment-13139815 Xera Thu, 17 Jan 2013 20:59:49 +0000 http://www.celebitchy.com/?p=274800#comment-13139815 "The portrayal of torture leading to the U.S. killing of terrorist leader Osama bin Laden in the new movie "Zero Dark Thirty" is bogus, top senators on the Intelligence and Armed Services committees told The Huffington Post" http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/13/zero-dark-thirty-torture_n_2288471.html “The portrayal of torture leading to the U.S. killing of terrorist leader Osama bin Laden in the new movie “Zero Dark Thirty” is bogus, top senators on the Intelligence and Armed Services committees told The Huffington Post”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/13/zero-dark-thirty-torture_n_2288471.html

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]]> By: Mira http://www.celebitchy.com/274800/kathryn_bigelow_defends_zdt_torture_scenes_depiction_is_not_endorsement/#comment-13139799 Mira Thu, 17 Jan 2013 20:51:38 +0000 http://www.celebitchy.com/?p=274800#comment-13139799 @LAK - Agree with everything you said but you read me wrong about whitewashing history. I didn't say American movies haven't withwashed history. Of course they have and you have given examples for the same. I said it's important that movies, in the course of dramatization, are not way off the mark and whitewash history. That happens when movies try to take a position on a certain point of view and try to support one side. ZDT does not take a position on anything. It's just plain story telling and up to the viewers to decide what position they want on the issue depicted in the movie. @Leen - You should watch ZDT. You will realize that KB is not taking a position on torture. She is just narrating the story, putting it in front of the audience how the operation went through. Torture unfortunately is a part of that history and therefore her comment that depiction is not endorsement. She is not taking a stand on the legal and moral rights and wrongs of torture. Yes, torture is unacceptable BUT it was used and the CIA (or someone from the Bush government, I forget) has accepted that "enhanced interrogation methods" helped narrow down OBL's courier. I don't see anything wrong or offensive in this statement of KB. She is just saying this is a part of the OBL-capturing history and not showing it in the movie will not make it go away. It's not KB but the cohort in the Bush government that is answerable. I agree with all you are saying but your argument would hold IF KB had taken a pro or anti position on torture in the movie. She's not doing that. She is just narrating the story and torture is sadly a part of that story. She shouldn't be criticized for what is not there. She is not whitewashing; in fact she is showing that these horrible methods were used to get to OBL. @LAK – Agree with everything you said but you read me wrong about whitewashing history. I didn’t say American movies haven’t withwashed history. Of course they have and you have given examples for the same. I said it’s important that movies, in the course of dramatization, are not way off the mark and whitewash history. That happens when movies try to take a position on a certain point of view and try to support one side. ZDT does not take a position on anything. It’s just plain story telling and up to the viewers to decide what position they want on the issue depicted in the movie.

@Leen – You should watch ZDT. You will realize that KB is not taking a position on torture. She is just narrating the story, putting it in front of the audience how the operation went through. Torture unfortunately is a part of that history and therefore her comment that depiction is not endorsement. She is not taking a stand on the legal and moral rights and wrongs of torture. Yes, torture is unacceptable BUT it was used and the CIA (or someone from the Bush government, I forget) has accepted that “enhanced interrogation methods” helped narrow down OBL’s courier. I don’t see anything wrong or offensive in this statement of KB. She is just saying this is a part of the OBL-capturing history and not showing it in the movie will not make it go away. It’s not KB but the cohort in the Bush government that is answerable.

I agree with all you are saying but your argument would hold IF KB had taken a pro or anti position on torture in the movie. She’s not doing that. She is just narrating the story and torture is sadly a part of that story. She shouldn’t be criticized for what is not there. She is not whitewashing; in fact she is showing that these horrible methods were used to get to OBL.

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]]> By: Leen http://www.celebitchy.com/274800/kathryn_bigelow_defends_zdt_torture_scenes_depiction_is_not_endorsement/#comment-13139743 Leen Thu, 17 Jan 2013 20:20:42 +0000 http://www.celebitchy.com/?p=274800#comment-13139743 Kathryn Bigelow was also not on the field and does not know what war is like. Kathryn Bigelow was also not on the field and does not know what war is like.

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]]> By: Leen http://www.celebitchy.com/274800/kathryn_bigelow_defends_zdt_torture_scenes_depiction_is_not_endorsement/#comment-13139729 Leen Thu, 17 Jan 2013 20:15:43 +0000 http://www.celebitchy.com/?p=274800#comment-13139729 Very true. There have been cases where suspected terrorists were tortured so horrendously that they ended up in hospitals as a result and died with no information extracted. I can't remember if it was MI5 or the CIA, but one suspected was tortured so badly he ended up in hospital, he was shivering and looked really badly beaten up that one of the CIA operatives felt sorry for him and brought him a glass of water and a coat, the suspected terrorist broke down and ended up crying and telling the guy that no one has been so kind to him and ended up telling him some crucial information. Also I cannot stress enough how torture has been an effective tool for Islamists to turn into terrorists. As I've said in my first post many of the Islamists who were tortured in Egyptian/Moroccan prisons (and I am talking about brutal torture the kind not even a sane human being can ever think of doing so) that broke their spirit and ended up joining Al-Qaeda as a result. Furthermore the 'ticking bomb' scenario rarely, if ever, occurs. Very true. There have been cases where suspected terrorists were tortured so horrendously that they ended up in hospitals as a result and died with no information extracted. I can’t remember if it was MI5 or the CIA, but one suspected was tortured so badly he ended up in hospital, he was shivering and looked really badly beaten up that one of the CIA operatives felt sorry for him and brought him a glass of water and a coat, the suspected terrorist broke down and ended up crying and telling the guy that no one has been so kind to him and ended up telling him some crucial information.

Also I cannot stress enough how torture has been an effective tool for Islamists to turn into terrorists. As I’ve said in my first post many of the Islamists who were tortured in Egyptian/Moroccan prisons (and I am talking about brutal torture the kind not even a sane human being can ever think of doing so) that broke their spirit and ended up joining Al-Qaeda as a result.

Furthermore the ‘ticking bomb’ scenario rarely, if ever, occurs.

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]]> By: Jules http://www.celebitchy.com/274800/kathryn_bigelow_defends_zdt_torture_scenes_depiction_is_not_endorsement/#comment-13139677 Jules Thu, 17 Jan 2013 19:58:10 +0000 http://www.celebitchy.com/?p=274800#comment-13139677 Have to say how incredible she looks – she's 61 years old. Have to say how incredible she looks – she’s 61 years old.

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]]> By: Leen http://www.celebitchy.com/274800/kathryn_bigelow_defends_zdt_torture_scenes_depiction_is_not_endorsement/#comment-13139673 Leen Thu, 17 Jan 2013 19:55:53 +0000 http://www.celebitchy.com/?p=274800#comment-13139673 @Ranunculus: Indeed, I've heard she faced heavy criticism from Iraq veterans as well. And I guess we won't know until 30 years from now what really happened with the events leading up to 9/11. Some have even coined it as a propaganda war film. @Mira: I agree that it is difficult to focus a 2 hour movie about the entire event and this movie focused about finding and capturing Osama Bin Laden. I don't really know why but it documentaries don't often need more than an hour and a half to present a balanced view of subjects such as torture/counter terrorism/the CIA's history with Osama. It is also not difficult to also present a balanced picture of a subject such as torture. I understand wanting to present a specific viewpoint of look we found and captured Osama, ignore the many lives we've ruined on the hunt, the legal and moral dilemmas of torture and the ethical questions of torture. Again, I did not watch the movie so I can't judge too harshly but Bigelow's statement on the depiction of torture really rubbed me the wrong way because she goes on and highlights 'yes I realize torture is bad, BUT it did help and was effective in capturing Osama', the whole 'the end justify the means' scenario which I am not a fan of. I mean look how many innocent civilians were tortured and afterwards the CIA refused to take any responsibility and refused to be held accountable to its actions. This is what bugs me about her statement about torture, it is effective IF you torture the RIGHT guy whose spirit was broken to extract information. Look how many 100s of people we needed to torture to get the right guy. Look at how many skeezy generals we had to deal with to get us to our target (I'm talking about the drug lords/militia leaders in Afghanistan). For now, I have not seen one movie deal with counterterrorism that actually depicts the dilemmas I've highlighted above. It seems to me and apologies for being a skeptic without seeing the film that it is following the same war mindset that has been drilled in the masses for the last 12 years. But again I will reserve my judgement and watch the movie because I actually really enjoy Jessica Chastain's acting. But I will definately without a doubt take this with a grain of salt when I watch it. And I'm sorry if I came out too harsh and critical about it but I am sort of a political junkie and lord do I detest whitewashing current events because for me it is merely a political propaganda tool. I also come from a personal standpoint because one of my friends' brother was nearly shipped off to guantanomo bay for mistaken identity. So yeah, I am not a fan of skewing one viewpoint of torture. If you want to depict torture, i would rather you depict it in a balanced way. Because let's remember, not only do terrorists get tortured, you can get tortured simply for having a similar name. @Ranunculus: Indeed, I’ve heard she faced heavy criticism from Iraq veterans as well. And I guess we won’t know until 30 years from now what really happened with the events leading up to 9/11. Some have even coined it as a propaganda war film.

@Mira: I agree that it is difficult to focus a 2 hour movie about the entire event and this movie focused about finding and capturing Osama Bin Laden. I don’t really know why but it documentaries don’t often need more than an hour and a half to present a balanced view of subjects such as torture/counter terrorism/the CIA’s history with Osama. It is also not difficult to also present a balanced picture of a subject such as torture.
I understand wanting to present a specific viewpoint of look we found and captured Osama, ignore the many lives we’ve ruined on the hunt, the legal and moral dilemmas of torture and the ethical questions of torture. Again, I did not watch the movie so I can’t judge too harshly but Bigelow’s statement on the depiction of torture really rubbed me the wrong way because she goes on and highlights ‘yes I realize torture is bad, BUT it did help and was effective in capturing Osama’, the whole ‘the end justify the means’ scenario which I am not a fan of. I mean look how many innocent civilians were tortured and afterwards the CIA refused to take any responsibility and refused to be held accountable to its actions. This is what bugs me about her statement about torture, it is effective IF you torture the RIGHT guy whose spirit was broken to extract information. Look how many 100s of people we needed to torture to get the right guy. Look at how many skeezy generals we had to deal with to get us to our target (I’m talking about the drug lords/militia leaders in Afghanistan).

For now, I have not seen one movie deal with counterterrorism that actually depicts the dilemmas I’ve highlighted above. It seems to me and apologies for being a skeptic without seeing the film that it is following the same war mindset that has been drilled in the masses for the last 12 years.

But again I will reserve my judgement and watch the movie because I actually really enjoy Jessica Chastain’s acting. But I will definately without a doubt take this with a grain of salt when I watch it.

And I’m sorry if I came out too harsh and critical about it but I am sort of a political junkie and lord do I detest whitewashing current events because for me it is merely a political propaganda tool.

I also come from a personal standpoint because one of my friends’ brother was nearly shipped off to guantanomo bay for mistaken identity. So yeah, I am not a fan of skewing one viewpoint of torture. If you want to depict torture, i would rather you depict it in a balanced way. Because let’s remember, not only do terrorists get tortured, you can get tortured simply for having a similar name.

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