Rest in peace, Baroness Margaret Thatcher. [Buzzfeed]
Kelly Clarkson’s ACM dress was really unflattering. [LaineyGossip]
Michael Douglas & Matt Damon will win all of the awards for this. [Dlisted]
Angelina Jolie’s LOTR style analyzed as “Hogwarts style”. [Go Fug Yourself]
Stop telling women when and how they should get married. Also, I do not care for Jezebel’s redesign – it’s more difficult to skim their stories. [Jezebel]
A treasury of Tom Cruise making weird faces. [Pop Sugar]
Recap of last night’s Game of Thrones. I haven’t seen it yet! Spoilers! [Pajiba]
Gwyneth Paltrow threw a star-studded birthday party for Moses. [A Socialite Life]
Alyssa Milano’s son is beautiful. [Celebrity Baby Scoop]
Kellan Lutz wants Kellan Lutz to get a Lutzy job. [ICYDK]
James Franco, academic artist, is tired of his academic-artist-image. [Evil Beet]
Emma Watson had to learn how to pole-dance. [The Blemish]
Lindsay Lohan & Avi Snow are over & his dong will never be the same. [CDAN]
This Amanda Bynes headline made me laugh. I know, I’m horrible. [Starcasm]
Jessica Alba is on vacation, and good lord she has a great body. [Popoholic]
Is Hilary Duff wearing pants?! [Celebslam]
Ashley Greene might be dating Josh Henderson? [IDLYITW]
Adam Lambert split with his boyfriend. [Bitten & Bound]
A complicated legacy…but no one can deny that she raised the profile of women on the world political stage is an extraordinary way. RIP
Totally agreed.
Perfectly said.
+1
^^This in spades.
Kudos!
agreed
Well put.
Part of her legacy will be challenging the archaic notions of women in politics and women in general. Who knew that a woman could govern with such will and gravitas.
Most sincere condolences to two children who have lost a mother– but i won’t shed crocodile tears for Thatcherism.
I will agree with other comments though re: her guts and gumption. definitely what is missing from most political discourse today.
Me too. I’m from Liverpool and everyone is out on the streets celebrating. In the end if the day she was loved by her family and they are in mourning. It’s inappropriate to celebrate her death but no tears from me.
Celebrating in the streets? Wow.
Damn. Celebrating in the streets is a bit much.
Dancing the streets?! Yikes I share the Liverpudlians sentiments (sans the dancing) as well as the Argentinians must I’m sure. I had no love for this woman. Although I was preteen back in the 80s, my awareness of politics was burgeoning esp. with RR in office. She definitely made an impact. She and her political hubby across the pond RR definitely did a lot of damage socially and sold out both our countries to big business more and more.
I do not agree fully with those of you who feel she did a lot for feminism. She acted like one of the boys which is not a show of feminism, it is just a woman acting like a man. Of course woman must show they are tough but to mimmick men. No need.
Not to mentions, she stole milk from children (free milk) destroyed the steel and coal industries and was a union buster. Ireland. Yeah and the Falklands. How patriotic was that heinous act? AND she and Dick Cheney called Mandela a TERRORIST. Utter BS. At least her family loved her and will mourn her death but not me. I clearly believe it is fine to speak ill of the dead especially when it is so well deserved.
Well, think of it this way. Although they are in no way comparable, people danced in the streets when Bin laden was gone.
It’s one of the ugly things about humans, celebration of death.
I can not agree more with you.
And regarding the celebrations, in Miami the Cuban Americans rented a stadium whe Fidel Castro got sick, thinking that he will die and that they will have a big celebration.
Just a month ago when Hugo Chavez died, some also celebrated but that celebration drowned because of the amount of people mourning!
So there it goes!
Agreed. As with any human passing, I am sorry for the friends and family left behind. But frankly I was not a fan of her policies or her arrogance. I don’t think she was a model of how a woman should lead. She had very little regard for the industrial towns which she battered mercilessly.
And enabling home ownership will never make up for the travesties of justice which were carried on at the Battle.
I think a lot of non UK residences need to rethink this glorified image of Thatcher.
Also, may I just add that she and her helmet head likely had a great part in the depletion of the ozone layer with her over the top hairspray usage.
Those who work at aerosol factories are probably the only industrial workers who are in tears today.
*residents
.
LAK I understand, my family also arrived in England with nothing and I do understand what you’re saying but it’s very hard for me to forget her role in Hillsborough and the miners. The wounds of the 80s will never heal in the north.
But rejoicing when someone dies, just because you don’t agree with their political career is disgusting and I have been appalled by some of the comments on the net/ on the news.
I have to agree. Let’s not forget her constant insistence that Nelson Mandela was a terrorist and her avid support for apartheid. And the situation in Northern Ireland.
I know dead politicians tend to be whitewashed but I’m hoping Thatcher will not be whitewashed. That said, I still find the celebration of her death is disgusting.
She’s such a divisive character in British politics. Half of my facebook feed is celebrating her death and half mourning her.
@Back777 – sorry i deleted my post. Going by the majority comments, It would seem this isn’t the place to post a positive thought about Thatcher.
Thank you ! Being dead won’t make us forget how ruthless she was.
This woman was such an inspiration to me. Made me proud to be British.
RIP.
Well, I wasn’t a fan of her personally, especially since she and Reagan were joined at the hip, but no one can deny her legacy and what she did for Britain.
Plus that great mind being slowed by alzheimers. That’s sad.
“Shall we join the ladies?”
LAK,
Looks like I have found 1 thing I completely disagree with you. I HATED this woman for everything she stood for, for being a elitist, for discriminating against poor, gays, for murdering 600 people by commanding to sink that ship, for the war in Ireland, for treating the people dying from hunger strike so badly, for creating such a large gap between poor and rich and I can go on and on and on……, she is one of the reasons I am ashamed to be a british citizen.
Having said that I admire her for achieving that position in her time and sorry for her children’s loss. May she rest in peace but her death won’t change what she did and this white washing of her actions is really very disgusting.
No no! She is not an insperation she may of been the first female priminster I say this as a femenisit but as a person living in a northern city she fecked the north of England up. She was a tory and lets be honest tories have never been a peoples party. (Please ignore my spelling mistakes after along day my dyslexia takes the better of me).
@Faye – I am old enough and educated enough to know who inspires me and why. Further, I am a tory. Life long.
@Angelic – we don’t have to agree on everything. I could write a counter point to everything you’ve written, but I feel @shannon further downthread is doing a better job of it. I hope this point of difference doesn’t ruin our cyber friendship.
RIP Baroness Thatcher.
(I’m an ass. Austin Powers “Margaret Thatcher naked on a cold day” has been running through my head on loop for hours, and I also laughed at Bynes)
RIP Ms Thatcher. Condolences to your family.
One of our Greatest Britons who left our country in a far better state than when she first came to power. By far our ballsiest PM and today’s cluster of politicians could stand to learn a great deal from her legacy.
They’ve announced that she’s having a ceremonial funeral like Churchill. no word on lying in state although apparently she didn’t want that. St Paul’s will probably be full of dignitaries.I am going try and get a place on the route.
She won’t lie in state. It was on the Guardian’s site about an hour ago.
And that is *all* I’m going to say on the matter.
Totally off topic, but I’m loving The Guardian’s GoT blog.
Just thought I’d throw that out there 😉
I’m late to the party, and only on season 2 of GoT, but the Guardian TV blogs are always SO good. I loved the season 1 blog they did!
The minor casting of GoT makes me SO happy, can I just say? Iain Glen, Roger Allam, the girl who played Anne Boleyn in the Tudors whose name I always forget.. the whole thing is just stuffed with fabulous actors.
What’s a got blog? will i find it easily if i go to the guardian’s website?
Game of Thrones blog, LAK 🙂
Just google ‘The Guardian’ and ‘Game of Thrones’ and it should be near the top. Their blogs are usually top notch, I was always reading the one covering The Hour (so irritated that it’s not being renewed for a third season. Harrumph.)
I genuinely let out a squee when Ciaren Hinds was cast, he’s such a loveable, old curmudgeon! The same for Anne Boleyn (Natalie someone?) Ah, it’s going to be a good series 3!
Ciaran Hinds! Squeee! I haven’t got there yet.
Natalie Dormer! She with the weird pursy lips but great acting
Amelia – yes I like it too. The comments are worth reading as well.
Farewell to a woman who seemed to hate men just as much as she hated feminism.
And homosexuals.
Edit; & Miners & unions…
..and single mothers, and artists, and young black men, and poor people….
..also stay at home mums, the working class and free milk for school children.
And the Irish (Nationalist and Unionist- if she were being honest), The Belgrano and Chilieans, other than her “good friend”, that all-round nice guy General Pinochet…
and nelson mandela.
Breaking unions was the only good thing she did IMO.
If we’re being honest, feminists hated her a lot more than she ever did them (I think she just didn’t care much to associate herself with that label, but didn’t hate feminists). They could never forgive her for being the first female prime minister of England but for being a conservative.
She said feminism was poison. I think it is entirely fair to say she disliked feminists.
Perhaps she called it poison since so many of its self-proclaimed proponents went after her with hatchets, then and now, and couldn’t give her once ounce of credit for being a female prime minister. Still doesn’t mean she “hated” feminists, not in the deeply personal way many seemed to feel toward her — to the point where many are celebrating her death on Facebook, Twitter, etc.
and Nelson Mandela
Although she was fond of General Pinochet.
And she and Ronnie were besties.
Indeed to most of all of the above.
Ha ! Love you girls lol
I doubt Baroness Thatcher hated feminism. She got to where she was, didn’t she? She also inherited a Britain that was in a severe downturn, and turned it around. Yes, it was awful for a while, but she did it. And she did it in a culture that did not treat women seriously. Women in politics now have a lot to thank Margaret Thatcher for.
I don’t agree with her policies, but I can’t with “she probably hated feminism and men”. She married one and had a son. And worked with them 24/7.
BLUE hare,
I think she absolutely hated feminism. In. her time she gave only 1 female cabinet position and never did anything to encourage woman. She was a woman acting like a man, not a woman doing a man’s job IMO. She was no better then other men who didn’t take women seriously.
That was because she worked with men. Who still don’t like women in power.
Yes but she didn’t like women either. She gave only 1 woman a cabinet position and her policies were well the less I say the better.
As an AMERICAN, I adored her..
Caps lock Kanye, is that you again?
“I do not care for Jezebel’s redesign”
me either, WAY TOO BIG to read conspicuously.
Just went to check it out. Hate it. They should at least give users an option. The side scroll bar of stories was great.
Looks like they are trying to get on top of spammers and trolls, though. That is good.
I don’t like it either. I hardly ever like redesigns at first. So I will see how I feel in a week or two.
It’s SO BIG! I have a netbook and the banner artwork for a single article takes up my entire screen.
I wonder what Paltrow served the kids at Moses’ birthday party.
The article said “overly healthy food….and (gasp) hamburgers.” That made me laugh.
RIP, Baroness Thatcher. They don’t cast them in your mold anymore.
Not everyone liked or agreed with her politics, but I wish more women could acknowledge how significant a figure she was in advancing the profile of women in power. Many will miss and mourn her, or at least acknowledge her legacy if they didn’t like her. I will try to focus on things like that, and not on comments like George Galloway on Twitter.
Another one-Annette Funicello just passed away.
R.I.P. Annette
I always feel bad for famous people who pass away on the same day as another MORE famous person because they only get a footnote and or people don’t appear to notice.
RIP Annette too.
Yeah Farrah Fawcett died same day as Michael Jackson
Yeah, poor Farrah Fawcett. Everyone forgets she died on the same day as Michael Jackson.
Mother Theresa, who died a few days after Diana.
I just saw this. Thoughts with both families.
RIP Maggie! I may not have always agreed with her politics but she had more balls than any man I’ve ever met.
The Iron Lady was at the time, and still is, one of my heroes and someone I’ll always admire. The world should be ever thankfull for her.
She loved Pinochet and hated Mandela. Great political sense (and values!), indeed.
RIP Prime Minister Thatcher. You have to admire someone who is not afraid to lead when popular opinion is against you. She left the country in a better position than Blair,Brown and Cameron. These guys and the majority of politicians today lead by polls and what is popular in order to win the next election.
Ding dong the witch is dead. Irish and I’m sure many British say good riddance.
i’m a scot and i’ll shed no tears for her. to call her a monster would be to excuse her actions by impying she had no choice. should i feel bad for someone who destroyed communities in scotland, wales and the north of england? not to mention ireland and her support of appartheid. or should i feel bad for her racist, coup financing family? instead i’ll take a moment to feel bad for all the lives she shattered.
Absolutely! I loathed her and my husband thinks she was great, so interesting times in our household.
Agree 100% with Sputnik above and Janey below. I lived in England and south Wales through her “rise to power”; her brutal destruction of the Welsh mining communities, her arrogant oblivion to the plight of the poor, her grasping privatization of nationalized companies (remember when British Rail actually had fewer than 10,000 accidents a year, anyone?), her holier-than-thou pomposity towards those who disagreed with her, her callous disregard towards human life in pursuing the Falklands War…. shall I go on? Oh, yeah, and that grating VOICE.
She is NOT a role model to me, nor will she ever be. True female role models in my view were the kind, caring academics where I studied, who showed me that it was possible to be firm, committed and successful without abandoning one’s humanity. Oh, and she was clearly a great role model to her son Mark – look how he turned out.
Sorry, but no tears here.
Ding dong the witch is dead? That’s a bit much, don’t you think?
Actually, every message I got about the death of Thatcher started with “ding dong the witch is dead…” given her actions while in office and the legacy she has left behind, I actually admire the restraint of the sentiment. It sickens me that the rhetoric at the moment is all about how great a PM she was and how, as a woman, I should admire her achievement. She was a war criminal, she supported apartheid, buddied up with dicatators, smashed the unions and destroyed industries. She is not an inspiration to women – she hated feminism, called it a poison. So, no I don’t think “ding dong the witch is dead” is in anyway an inappropiate statement.
So because other people are saying it makes it OK?
I think it’s awful.
I don’t agree with Maggie’s politics, but nor do I agree with the ridiculous amount of people on my Facebook who have been celebrating her death (people that weren’t even born when she was in power!!).
Rest in peace, Maggie.
I don’t celebrate anyone’s death. If I didn’t celebrate Bin Laden’s death, I’m certainly not going to celebrate hers.
Such a divisive, conflicting figure. On the one hand, admirable for her tenacity, toughness, and hard-working get it done approach. On the other hand, I’m still aghast at her policies and at the effects they had on British society. So contradictory. You’d think, ok, too much dependency on the nanny state is not good, let’s clean things up, make people responsible for themselves, have accountability, etc. But the reality was devastating and I don’t know if she ever looked back on it and thought she could have done things differently. It’s bizarre. How bizarre is it that citizens under some dictatorships/authoritarian regimes had better lives (in some respects) than did the people under Thatcher? Or am I wrong? It’s such a weird time in British history. And I don’t know…is Britain a horrible place to live now? According to my relatives there…yes.
I think it hurts right now because we’ve had a period of good economy which as it turns out was borrowed economy.
I was a child in the 80s, but i do remember the talk about the 70s and reading up about it, including the leading policy makers of the day. It would seem that Britain was completely and utterly bankrupt and was getting IMF loans to tidy it over. Coming from my background, the IMF was known as the world body that lent to bankrupted 3rd world economies which if it is a true estimation of IMF gives you the kind of picture that Thatcher inherited economically speaking.
Her domestic policies were also shaped by her backround ie being a grocer’s daughter. I don’t think she tried to be more sophisticated than the needs of a shopkeeper to run their shop efficiently and profitably knowing that they stand alone in their enterprise. Her tenure lead Britain out of the shadow of the IMF and into surplus that Tony Blair and Gordon Brown inherited. By contrast, when you see Gordon Brown’s policies, many are formed from the mind of an out of touch university professor of economics i.e. good on paper, disastrous in reality.
Her Foreign policies were questionable, and i can be as aghast as everyone is at those, but she had Ronnie to support her all the way so one could say that they egged each other on, rightly or wrongly and were just as culpable as each other.
Agreed, LAK. People tend to forget that (then) Mrs. Thatcher took over when Britain was practically bankrupt (wasn’t there a huge coal miners strike at the time?) She might have busted their balls, but she knew that saving Britain was going to take Churchill like decisions . . . like do we let the Nazis bomb Coventry and have people killed so the Nazis don’t know we have their code? Or do we save citizens’ lives but give away we know the code?
I am NOT comparing her to Churchill, but I think she was confronted with a lot of damned if she did and damned if she didn’t situations.
Thanks, that makes sense/sheds some light on it. The union thing is what I remember most, but I was young at the time. I think I remember my dad saying the unions had put Maggie in a hard place, so she had no choice to do what she did, but I don’t know…
I think she was an idealogue more than anything and that trumped her good leadership qualities (e.g., toughness, etc….I kind of think of think you have a bit of an a-hole to be a leader of a country, frankly, and in any case, you’re always going to p-o SOMEONE). Hence, supporting apartheid, removing milk programs, etc. I mean, REALLY, Maggie??!!! So, she could just have easily made tough decisions that might not have had such horrific consequences on people’s lives. She’s one for the lesson books, for sure. I’ll have to read up on her again…it’s been a while since history/polisci days…
That is a very interesting and informative perspective LAK. I’m living through a period of being beholden to the needs of the IMF and the Troika in my country, so I can appreciate the difficulty of the task.
Like you, I am also a child of the ’80s, and was very aware of the woman and her legacy. So much so, that I refuse(d) to go by my birth name of Margaret, and use the Irish version, and even to this day I dislike being nicknamed Maggie.
To preface: I know and work with a lot of politicians and appreciate the hard task that they have, and I know that situations are never black and white, good or evil, and attaining the greater good requires sometimes distasteful “diplomacy”. I know that in my job sometimes I have to be the “bad guy” in order to either get things done, or prevent expensive mistakes.
However, some decisions are better than others. Due to her ideology she and her cabinet may have made things worse in a number of cases. For example, it is true to say that Britain was drowning under the weight of running the welfare state. However, in the interests of “winning” the battle against the unions and dismantling British industry, vast swathes of the nation were left without industry and making even more beholden to the welfare state.
The idea that private business can always run services better led to some horrific train crashes (and no better services) and the truly ludicrous situation of a number of water companies having hosepipe bans during long periods of rain because of the lack of investment in the pipe infrastructure to maintain profits.
With regard to foreign policy, I actually agree with the decision to support the people of British descent in the Falklands. But the action of the Belgrano was a legitimate war crime,and her arrogance and disdain for Diana Gould in the TV debate was appalling.
As for Northern Ireland, I’m not going to condone or support the actions of the IRA or the INLA or even Sinn Féin. The desire not to capitulate to terrorism is understandable but, not unlike the tactical error of murdering the leaders of the 1916 Rising, her allowing the deaths of the hunger strikers only made martyrs of them and drove many alienated young men and women into the eager arms of the Provos on both sides, seeing the biggest rise in their numbers in many years. Yes, she signed the Anglo Irish Agreement, after being forced to by the USA. The good work that went towards the peace process afterwards in spite of her influence, not because of it.
I agree that she was brave in never shying away from making tough decisions, but I don’t think she always made the right ones.
Mairhead – i agree 100% with what you say, although unlike you, Maggie was very much a hero in our home, but we had arrived with nothing, so the only way was literally UP!!! And to be fair, my family didn’t land here and sign up for benefits. it was so much harder to get those during the 80s, they just got on with it. Economics and politics was a frequent dinner table subject. We didn’t always agree with her decisions, but frankly there was nothing practical coming through from the opposition to replace whatever policy they objected to.
With regards privatisation, it is a really contentious issue for all the reasons you have given, and yet it is strangely affected by the same issues when public ie govt services are running the companies. The private sector are only interested in making money with as little overhead as possible, but the public sector don’t care enough beyond getting paid so they don’t always give value for money nor are they interested in it. The amount of wastage that happens in the public sector is truly shocking, but simultaneously one can’t hand over entirely to private sector because they will only care for their bottom line at cost to the people they service.
Politicians are stuck between a rock and a hard place for these sorts of decisions because they have to strike the right balance.
Was it the right decision, i still don’t know for some industries whilst for others i say resounding yes. At the time it happened, public sector had failed utterly so they had to try something different. What they didn’t do as you rightly pointed out was plan for the replacement industries for all those displaced people. Much like our Iraq strategy.
I’ll reserve comment on thatcher and ask if anyone else thinks alba has a tummy tiuck belly button?
Yes I think she does. They give me the heebijeebies.
Perhaps it would be more thoughtful to discuss Baroness Thatcher.
Why? There are plenty of other websites for that. This is celebitchy. @MorticiansDoItDeader: the only thing I noticed about those photos is how ridiculously obvious the photoshopping is. Look at that header pic! They shaved half her upper body off, to such a degree that they don’t match her hips anymore!
Cherry: Why? Because if you’ll look up at the top of the page you’ll see the thread is about Margaret Thatcher. And to use Jessica Alba to hijack a thread is very disrespectful. You don’t have to like Margaret Thatcher, but the woman died today and to have the thread degenerating into the crap it’s becoming is very disrespectful.
And don’t start with the things you don’t like about her. There’s a lot I don’t like about her as well, but it’s called respect.
Actually, bluehare, this is the links page, so any of the stories linked to are fair game for commentary.
Janie, you’re right, I stand corrected.
Still think it’s in bad taste though.
CB doesn’t usually cover the deaths of politicians or political figures (or did I just miss the coverage of Hugo Chavez and Kennedy speechwriter Theodore Sorensen?). It’s only being reported here because Meryl Streep was in a hagiography of her.
Wow, I can’t believe you are getting snarky about people commenting on the LINKS that are posted on the LINKS page!
My inner 13 year old is positively having a meltdown about how now, finally, at age 38, alyssa milano and I have little boys the same age and OMGOMG the same baby carrier. COOL AT LAST, COOL AT LAST, THANK GOD ALMIGHTY!
See note to Cherry above. Very disrespectful.
There’s mommy.com or whatever for that.
@Bluhare: go sit down. Girl, this is a gossip site. Sure the woman died today but that’s not the only happening in the world and people have the right to talk about what ever they want, not just what you see fit. Also, to say they cannot talk about what the dislike about Thatcher? get in contact with reality. Not because you like her or because she is dead now that means she did no wrong and people can and more importantly will highlight it.
Diana, don’t call me “girl” and I am sitting down. It’s easier to type that way. I also have a very firm grasp of reality and I totally understand what a gossip site is. Perhaps the mistake here is that a gossip site chose a serious subject in their “links” section.
As I said to Janie above, I didn’t realize it was a links item. I thought Celebitchy had done a separate post about her death. So I stood corrected.
Have you ever done that? Stood corrected? The tone of your response to me makes me think not.
ding dong..
RIP Thatcher?!
Is anyone forgetting that this woman SUPPORTED APARTHEID??!!
Unbelievable.
I haven’t.
It’s amazing how the media is conveniently forgetting her unequivocal support for Pinochet. How she campaigned for his release when he was arrested and claimed that his critics were just bitter and targeting him for “improving the Chilean economy” with a laissez faire market. Instead of, say, taking issue with how tens of thousands WERE BRUTALLY TORTURED AND KILLED under his regime.
I certainly haven’t. I haven’t forgotten that Reagan did as well. Add to the pile menachim begin.
But hey they’ve been whitewashed for years and supporting apartheid in their term has rarely been mentioned in the last couple of years. Lets hope no one forgets that Thatcher supported apartheid.
But it should be RIP to all the Irish hunger strikers.
you mean to the convicted IRA terrorists who chose to starve themselves because they were made to slop out like ‘common criminals’? Let’s call a spade a spade….
They are political prisoners and by international law, it is a completely different arena from criminal convicts.
They should have been treated as political prisoners, it was their right under the Genenva convention.
It doesn’t matter what you think of them personally or what I think of them, but international law decrees that there is a difference between criminals and political prisoners. And for the record, no offense but convicted serial killers and rapists in the UK are treated faaaaaaaaaar better than the Irish hunger strikers.
And I am no way defending attacks on innocent civilians, maybe you should check out what the IRA hunger strikers were put on. Posession of ‘handguns’ is IMO (nor is in International law) not really a terrorist act (as Bobby Sands was charged with).
And pray tell what is so wrong about these demands?
They are POLITICAL prisoners, and the demands they listed is NOTHING against international law, in fact, it is in full compliance with the geneva conventions.
So excuse me if I feel a bit disgusted with the Thatcher’s government, considering how I see pedophiles, rapists and serial killers are treated infinitely better than the Irish hunger strikers.
Leen, they were not political prisoners, that was the point. Anyone who was interned (political imprisonment) was allocated special category status – “SCS” – which gave them the correct rights under the Geneva Convention, but it was not allocated to those convicted of criminal actions.
The strikers – Ashe, for example, who killed 12 people, and Lynch who took part in punishment shootings – were all convicted of common criminal offences. Possession of an unlicensed hand gun is indeed a criminal act in the UK, so Sands was convicted accordingly.
The strikers wanted SCS as that would have allowed them to more easily run external IRA paramilitary units from within prison (all were high-ranking IRA officers) without interference. At the time, the mainland continued to be bombed by cells being directed by some of these men.
I agree about the rapists, serial killers etc, but that has nothing to do with internment –vs. – incarceration, and neither have anything to do with Mrs Thatcher’s death. In fact, she supported stronger sentences for serious crimes like these (including capital punishment) and increased spending on law & order by 52% in real terms during power.
The deaths though escalated the conflict massively. For all intensive purposes the Provisional IRA was a spent force by 1980/81. SF support was in the doldrums and the organisation was generally quite demoralized.
The death of the Hunger Strikes resulted in a massive increase in support for the Provisionals and major escalation in the troubles.
What’s ironic of course is the Thatcher government basically gave into the five demands within months of the end of strike. They just didn’t admit it.
Not one prisoner in the H-Blocks was convicted under standard criminal law. Instead they were convicted under “Scheduled offenses” as defined in the “Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1973”
As a result they were trialed in a non-jury court (Diplock Court). Which consist of a single Judge hearing evidence and then passing sentence.
In comparison in the United States it’s unconstitutional to submit someone to a non-jury trial.
A “common criminal” in Northern Ireland (say a Drug dealer) found in possession of a firearm in comparison would have been trialled in front of a jury.
-Paul
Thank you Paul, you explained it a lot better than I did.
And yes, Thatcher did submit to their demands privately. Also you cannot say they are ‘terrorists’ then ‘criminals’. These are very two different definitions, which one falls under international politics and the latter is confined to national politics (and the international bodies cannot intervene as it is part of the state’s sovereignty) but international bodies certainly can intervene when it comes to terrorism, trasnationalist organizations, and so on. So you can’t really pick and choose, either they are criminals or in your opinion ‘terrorists’, but they are not both from a legal and international perspective.
Also let’s be fair, if Kosovo Liberation Army were on hunger strike, Yugoslavian national laws might dictate they are criminals, but it is very clear in international politics and international standards that international law applies.
Leen, the United Nations has long-since defined Terrorism as “Criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public…” so one can indeed be both a criminal and a terrorist.
Paul, I had forgotten that the court was a special one, albeit a legal one ratified by our elected Parliament, so thank you for the reminder and your thoughtful words on the implications of the strikes. It is a sad but true fact that they increased terrorist activity and IRA membership, leading to many more deaths on both sides.
What started this is that we have an ‘RIP’ for terrorists on this particular thread. Will it be acceptable for me to post ‘RIP bin Laden’ when Obama dies, or ‘RIP 9/11 bombers’ when Bush dies? I think not, it is offensive, whatever your views on Thatcher.
sharron, I don’t think you got my point. I am not saying that the tactics are not criminal, they are, it is just they are different from the common criminal acts. For instance, war crimes, just because are international doesn’t make them any less of a ‘crime’ but they have an international dimension which is then subject to international law, and not necessarily national laws (although international agencies can choose to allow war criminals to be persecuted by their national governments and whatever the result comes up, such as death penalty, the UN can’t do anything about it… as it was the case with Saddam Hussein). Although criminal acts such as murder are fundementally different than tranational acts and terrorism. Terrorism always has a dimension of psychological terror, for a political goal, and often transnational acts falls under the jurisdiction of IP (as they are, transnational).
There are over 100 defintions of terrorism though, and the UN till this day struggles to define what terrorism is, and this author makes a very good point about the distinction.
By distinguishing terrorists from other types of criminals and terrorism from other forms of crime, we come to appreciate that terrorism is : 1. ineluctably political in aims and motives
2. violent – or, equally important, threatens violence
3. designed to have far-reaching psychological repercussions beyond the immediate victim or target
4. conducted by an organization with an identifiable chain of command or conspiratorial cell structure (whose members wear no uniform or identifying insignia) and
5. perpetrated by a subnational group or non-state entity.
Of course in any peace-treaty, political prisoners are subject to release, the common criminal is usually not. As in the case of Northern Ireland, after the Good Friday agreement, 428 prisoners were released.
But again, going back to the Kosovo point, just because a country like Yugoslavia defines the KLA as a terrorist organization and a criminal one, does not mean that international law does not apply. There is a reason why the Geneva Conventions were written, especially in regards to disputes.
And for your comment about RIP about terrorists… well as you can see that definition is fluid. (See Nelson Mandela, ANC, IRA). Again, I do not condone bombing innocent civilians (and for very personal reasons I nearly lost family in suicide bombings, so trust me I know the damaging effect of terrorism can have on a person) but being in posession of a handgun is hardly comparable to a 9/11 or a suicide bombing.
Good riddance to bad garbage.
Homophobic, anti-feminist, anti- Irish,anti-worker, racist,pro-apartheid warmongerer, who had as little respect for the working class people of her own country as she did for anyone who was not white, middle-class and very British indeed. As a human being I do feel for her family, as I would for anyone, but as an Irish person, I cannot say I’m sorry to see her go. She may have been a powerful woman, but as a feminist I believe that women and men should be treated equally in every way. Therefore I’m not going to allow her gender to overshadow the heinous acts she committed during her time in power simply because she and I have a vagina in common. She was everything I despise in a government leader and if she were a man, she would be called a villain, not a great leader and we simply can’t allow this fact to be overshadowed by gender politics.
Marry me.
Nobody who supports Pinochet and apartheid should ever, EVER, be hailed as some kind of role model just because she is a woman.
Well, its takes an IRISH person on here to talk CLEAR, LOGIC and GOOD SENSE.As usual.
Here! Here! My friend!
Im SHOCKED that some of the women on here are giving her a free pass simply because Thatcher was a woman.?
This woman single handedly destroyed so much of English and Irish society as well as throughout the world. I would be more likely to say Im EMBARRASSED shes a woman than proud.
Who cares shes a woman anyway?
She was as diabolical and EVIL, as PALIN is straight up dumb….and both are equally dangerous!
And, I dont blame anyone at all for celebrating this nuts death….simply put she hated humanity and loved rich people…good and bad rich people. Just so long as they were rich they were fine by her.
I cant find anything good to say about her at all and frankly Im glad the world is without her.
You know the ironic is? A lot of sexists and misogynic men actually like her. I’ve watched a documentary where a couple of Islamists who say that women don’t belong in politics, then someone pointed out that Maragaret Thatcher had left a legacy and he just said, ‘yeah but Thatcher is different, she’s a great leader, she’s not really a woman, is she?’
So, take that as you want. Looks like misogynists like her quite a bit.
THANK.YOU.
I’m not celebrating her death by any means, but let’s not pretend she was anything other than a horrible person and a horrible politician.
Thank you HolyMoly! Couldn’t have said it better myself.
You’ve made such a good point here – that you aren’t going to allow the fact that she was a woman diminish the heinousness of her actions.
you said that perfectly. don’t forget her support of the khmer rouge as well. she sent funds to pol pot who was responsible for the murder of two million cambodians.
SO TRUE.
Is Amanda Bynes mentally ill? ‘Cause that sure sounds like dissociative behavior…
As a teen, I admired the woman for her position but didn’t care for her politics or the way she went about them.
She and RR seemed to have a scorched earth mentality. A lot of people have not recovered from their time in office. IMO neighter of their regimes were people friendly. A lot of the excess and inequality we see now began with their policies.
Really folks? Dancing in the streets? Murderer? I’m pretty sure Thatcher (RIP – yes RIP!) died not in front of a firing squad or war tribunal or in a hole in the ground (Hussein) but at the ripe old age of 87. If she was some sort of cross between Hitler and Mussolini then where were the war crime trials???? We may not be happy about some of her politics and believe me, I’m as liberal as they come, but I challenge anyone on this board to name the 10 PMs before Thatcher (don’t include Churchill). Whatever you want to say, she made a huge difference and for that I say Rest in Peace Ms. Thatcher. Geez. . . it’s going to get super ugly on here when George Bush (either one) dies.
Thank you, Maxine. It’s nice to see some civility here.
Just because she wasn’t trialed or convicted of anything, that doesn’t mean she didn’t commit heinous acts.
You can make that same statement about (insert name of world leader here).
Oh! So because it happens lot, that makes it ok? I think not.
I’m not sorry to see Thatcher go.
She was a despicable human being.
There’s nothing about her that qualifies her as a role model. Just getting to the top doesn’t qualify you for that. It matters mightily what you do when you get there.
Well said, finally the Iron Lady is gone may she rust in peace!!!!
that free warm milk in school was disgusting, good riddance to dairy unless you are a calf
I feel for her family but I feel more for the thousands of families she devasted during her leadership and after seeing as we are still suffering from the effects.
I’m from Sheffield and as a city we are suffering massively from an unemployment crisis because she sold off such a majority of the steel industry. All of her acts that got rid of the UK’s industries have continued to ruin our economy, especially now we have Cameron who is stripping the country of its benefits when there are no jobs to be had because Thatcher sold them all! Similarly she inadvertantly encouraged the exploitation of benefits because she left so many without jobs. Her policies may have improved the UK’s reputation during the 80s but it was at the expense of the citizens she should have protected, as well as giving us nothing to export and so ruining our economy long term!
Death is awful and I do feel for her family and to an extent she may have improved the chances of women in politics. But her policies were destructive and ruthless and she cared little for anyone in a stature lower than her own and that’s why people are celebrating, not because an old woman died.
Here’s something you may wish to consider, as you reflect on her legacy:
She inherited 27% inflation, due to Labour’s money-printing.
The Union strikes of 78-79 led to a 3 day week, with bodies going unburied, rubbish piling on the streets, hospitals ‘working to rule’, no fresh food or fuel in the shops….
Nationalised industries were so heavily subsidised (and unionised) that nothing worked, there was no investment or pretence of proving value for money to the tax payer. I too am from a northern industrial town, and quite frankly the miners and their ‘flying pickets’ brought it on themselves, their base abuse of a ‘job for life’ was disgusting.
The top rate of tax was 89%, we had a huge brain drain going on.
The free milk subsidy was ploughed straight back into a school-building programme.
The IRA were blowing up innocent civilians in mainland Britain, it wasn’t a ‘blue on blue war’, anyone was game
…and while I disagreed with the selling of council houses to their tenants, as we need(ed) the stock, it kick-started the economy and led to a whole generation joining the private sector, which generated jobs and tax revenue.
Finally, I have read ‘Long Walk To Freedom’ as well as Thatcher’s autobiography, and while it is acknowledged by both parties that she did not love Mandela, she openly admits that she opposed sanctions as political bullying. Mandela has acknowledged that she made it clear she would support him if he renounced violent struggle, which he refused to do until much later. People on both sides who were at the long meeting between them both in 1990 say her only ‘failing’ was that she treated him as a politician rather than a saint.
RIP Mrs Thatcher, Britain is a better country for your input.
This is the most intelligent, balanced, well stated post I’ve seen in this thread (including my own post in that assessment!) Thank you Sharron.
+1 Thanks Sharron!
Sharron, apparently complimenting your post is considered spam, but please consider this post my standing ovation to yours.
Interestingly people here in Australia are more impacted by this than they were by the death of Reagan. One guy at my work was even going out with friends to celebrate her death over drinks. Whereas Reagan’s death was met with a collective shrug of the shoulders.
I lived in London for 6 years so I know people there are divided on Margaret Thatcher but celebrating her death was distasteful. I understand if this was Syria, Libya or Iraq but Britain??? I know several relatives who disliked Ronald Reagan but they didn’t go celebrating in the streets. They were respectful.