George Clooney and The Monuments Men sausage party made their way to Berlin this weekend. They promoted the film at the Berlinale Film Festival, with Cate Blanchett still withdrawing from all of her promotional duties for the film (official story: she’s grieving for her friend Philip Seymour Hoffman). So, Matt Damon, Jean Dujardin, Bill Murray and John Goodman joined Clooney in Berlin, and it looks like they were having a really good time. Clooney always has a good time, even when the film isn’t getting the best reviews.
Clooney has had some stuff to say over the past few days, so let’s do some highlights. First up, remember how Clooney shaded Leonardo DiCaprio and the P-ssy Posse in his Esquire interview a few months ago? Well, Clooney was asked about Leo recently and he said: “Somebody made it like there was a big fight. I’ve known Leo a long time and somebody just made that a fight.” For the record, George did shade Leo and his crew. It’s not like we made it up. He told Esquire: “The discrepancy between their game and how they talked about their game made me think of how important it is to have someone in your life to tell you what’s what. I’m not sure if Leo has someone like that.” That’s shade. Clooney is saying that Leo surrounds himself with Yes Men.
Second story… at the Berlinale, George was asked by a Greek reporter if he thought the UK should return Greek artifacts/antiquities held in the various British museums. Clooney said in part that Greece has a “very good case” for demanding the artifacts back and “It wouldn’t be a bad thing if they were returned… I think that is a good idea. I think that would be a very fair and very nice thing. Yeah, I think it is the right thing to do.”
And finally, here’s the Jimmy Kimmel bit everyone is talking about. It’s Kimmel’s latest “Celebrities read mean tweets” feature, and Clooney and the rest of the Monuments Men people are in there. Benedict Cumberbatch is in there too!
Photos courtesy of WENN.
as a Greek i feel really happy that someone finally said it publicly!!!!!! Go George!!!!!
Ι agree Blondie. It is sad that our monuments were stolen so many years ago and they are still spread all aroung England. The British government has the obligation to return them and we do not have to ask George Clooney’s opinion about the matter. It is common sense.
Common sense yet it’s still not done.
Also, as a Greek it would be nice to see them returned.
This story is kind of like Yale and Machu Picchu.
Different details, but the same jist.
To be nitpicky, Elgin did not technically steal anything, he had the proper permission from the government in charge. It’s not his fault that the Turks controlled Greece at the time.
As for if anyone else who removed Greek artifacts had permission, I don’t know.
@Jessica: since the original has been lost and all is left is a – much uncertain – Italian translation of the original firman, I would assert that Elgin had a proper permission. Also, would you say the same thing for all the people who bought former Jewish collections from the nazis: that it was not their faught if the nazis controlled (nearly) all of Europe at the time?
I meant to say “I WOULDN’T assert that Elgin had a proper permission” , of course!
Agreed. I’m British and I live in Greek Cyprus and I love being able to see antiquities in their original context; it’s so much better and in Cyprus they are relaxed about these things. I can take my son to see the mosaics and no-one tells me off if he runs around or accidently touches something because it is all outdoors and the people here just have the best attitude towards children. Slight digression 🙂
It’s horribly arrogant of the British to assume we should be custodians of another countries culture and history. Byron was championing this point of view long before Clooney, incidently, it’s one of the many aspects of his general awesomeness (Byron, not Clooney).
I think that things should be viewed in their original context, and that they’re a part of someone’s cultural heritage.
But I couldn’t disagree more with the rest of your statement. It is a big deal that people not touch antiquities and works of art, because the oils in our hands break down the work of art over time. It may be a big deal to you, but over time and over large numbers of people, it destroys the work of art. Preservation is a big deal. Not all works of art get the same traffic as something like the Acropolis, but when you look at it as a part of a heritage that’s being passed down to further generations, it’s important that we care for them. And also, its just respectful of the people that work there and the other patrons that you not have your kid run crazy. I say this as the mom of 2 boys that if left to their own devices would be running amok everywhere.
Hey Bridget, I don’t actually let my kid run amok in museums or touch oil paintings or anything. I wasn’t really clear enough – I was talking about going to see ruins and things, exhibits and stuff that are outdoors.
I don’t let him do any of the stuff you just described! I actually meant it’s great being able to walk around an outdoor archaeological dig, rather than having to go indoors because there’s more freedom, that’s all.
Went to the British Museum a few months ago, and loads of tourists (both from abroad and elsewhere in Britain), were manhandling those marble exhibits on the ground floor. Despite all those signs. And the guards were letting them! Standards are definitely slipping. So with preservation and proper care in mind, Clooney or not, we have an obligation to return them.
In a similar vein, on behalf of my other heritage, I’d like to ask all art that were cheaply bought from Japan back in the 1860s to be returned to them.
What blondie said!!!
I’m with Georgy-Porgie too, but we shouldn’t stop with returning Greek artefacts to Greece … all artefacts should be returned to their country of origin, but wait … what if the country of origin is some war torn hell-hole where there’s a high possibility they’ll be destroyed or looted?
As an archaeologist I have the artifacts in mind, and only that. It’s nothing political. My opinion: the artifacts should be kept were preservation, upkeep and security is the best. Greece is extremly underfunded in these departments and MANY sites just rot away unguarded, sites are being raided, artifacts are being stolen and sold on the black market. I am not saying that the best known museums in Athens for example can’t take good care of the artifacts, they do a great job. But there is limited space and storing capacities. I would love to see the Elgin Plates back in the Akropolis Museum next to the Parthenon, though…I would just love it!
Returning the artifacts to Greece is, in my opinion, the least problematic. Returning artefacts to other countries which are in a state of crisis, war or extreme poverty is more problematic. They have the right to get them back, no discussion, but with the immeasurable values in mind…no. As an archaeologist…just no. Panties in a bunch or not, these values have to be preserved in the best way possible.
Agreed.
You know it would be nice IF the Greek government had the impetus and the finances to care for the antiquities properly. Unfortunately they do not. Like many antiquities, they are a part of the heritage of most western countries. All of us need to look after them and unfortunately the Greek governments (and the Turkish and Egyptian) had very little respect for the antiquities that existed. For instance Pavlopetri, the Greek government did nothing about this site. It was left up to privateers in 2009 to map, and properly excavate this important city. Only one example amongst many, look up the dams that they have built over important sites and the way in which antiquities have been treated. No, leave them where they are, they are available to all to look at and are being cared for appropriately. George needs to keep his nose out of things that he doesn’t know about.
@blondie
That is rubbish, sorry.
Greek antiquities should be ALL given back or stay where they are….
Or do we forget that inside the Berlin museums (the Pergamom, the Altes and the Neues) there are so many looted Greek artefacts that Greece should hire a thousand planes to carry them all back?
Clooney shouldn’t provide archaeological answers. Pls George, stick to movies.
P.S.: I’m an archaeologist and I agree with Selena. Unless we want to see all the artefacts going into shreds like the whole city of Pompeii, given that Italian government is bankrupt and they could NOT provide any money for the restoration (Germany stepped in).
Yes! I LOVE mean tweets! This edition wasn’t as funny as past ones – some of the best ever from past Mean Tweets were Dennis Quaid, Amy Poehler, Julia Louis-Dreyfus and Christina Applegate. The crazy tweets and their reactions to them had me in stitches!
Bill Murray and Sarah Silverman were the best. Hilarious. Actually, some of those tweets were pretty funny on their own.
I love them too.
Benedict Cumberbatch is so sexy. He could spell his name all night long to me… sigh 🙂
I think the Elgin Marbles should be returned to Greece also, as, I think, do most Brits when there are opinion polls on the subject. Having said that, IIRC Elgin was given official permission from the Greek administration at the time so I don’t think there is a viable legal case – we’d have to do it voluntarily. And there’s a worry that museums across the world would be put at risk by the precedent (I don’t buy this one myself – that’s just the way the cookie crumbles).
Decency says return though, doesn’t it? Seems obvious to me. I’m for restitution.
But, as you say, it’s the practical implications that are the problem. If we started giving back every piece that was acquired, ahem, less than ethically, the museum would be half empty. Most museums would.
Good point T.fanty, but most stuff is loaned to museums with the full permission of the real owner – or indeed donated period. When something is as contentious as the Elgin marbles, there should be some dialogue between the nations involved at least. Greece has repeatedly asked for them back and we’ve just not engaged in that argument.
So you are saying that British cannot return the monuments that rightfully belong to GREECE because English museums would be empty? That is not an argument my friend, you cannot keep what is not yours…What about Greek museums? What about Greek people who are not given the chance to exhibit their national treasures to the rest of the World?
“the museum would be half empty. Most museums would”
Actually most museums in England, France, Germany, USA would be empty. Museums in Greece, Turkey, Egypt, India, China, Mexico, etc. would be brimming, they’d have to build new ones actually.
Not convinced about that one; not by a long chalk Fanty. The storage collections usually far surpasses the exhibitions.
In fact, in just the four collections of artefacts my office has catalogued in relation to our geographic area we’d need probably three of our proposed museum spaces to put out all the readily displayable stuff alone.
Yes Kelly they would have to build new museums and I can just imagine those governments prioritising antiquities! Not. There are food lines in Greece. Egypt is in a state of serious unrest. Turkey is on the brink of financial disaster. India has a bourgeoning middle class but there are still malnourished children from the lower classes and adequate medical care is a joke. China could certainly care for the antiquities, but other nations? No hope. Egypt has done a wonderful job with water leaking onto sarcophagi and mould growing on documents etc. Greece just doesn’t care with the black market still doing a great business because of lack of funds and want to properly excavate sites. Turkey has treated their antiquities with total disdain have a read about Zeugma!
Exactly. And not just the British Museum or British museums whose exhibits are remnants of colonialism. It’s every main museum in every city in every country.
That there is probably no legal case in the particular instance of the Elgin Marbles is probably irrelevant. I think there does need to be reparation, but it’s all got to be voluntary. Probably collaboration involving sharing expertise and partial restitutions are the way to go. But agreement is so hard to find.
I think the British Museum is one of the worst, though, when it comes to the ethics of how the collection was acquired. And it’s so incredible that it’s called the “British” considering how few of the pieces in the museum are British… They should take a page from Mexico City’s Museo Nacional de Antropología. They recreated Mayan and Aztec monuments at the museum and visitors are encouraged to visit those monuments where they were built and still stand.
@Sixer hum… how did Elgin obtained an ‘official permission’ from the Greek administration??? The marbles were gathered from Athens between 1801-05. There were NO Greek administration, since Greece back then was part of the Ottoman Empire. Do you mean Turks gave the permission? A part of Greece was liberated in 1821.
I know. There’s a big hoohaa over the permissions and whether they were genuine/legal and the territorial responsibility now is not what it was then. Don’t take offence. All’s I’m saying is that a legal action would probably fail and any restitution would likely have to be voluntary. – in as simple a way as possible. And that a voluntary restitution is the way to go, in any case, in my opinion.
The British Museum cannot legally return the statues to Greece as in their governance rules once an object enters the museum it cannot be removed again. To get the marbles back to Greece the law would have to be changed through Parliament and then go through the House of Lords. This is further complicated because as many people have pointed out, Elgin did not steal the statues, he had the proper permissions to remove them. That said, as a Brit I also agree that they should be returned to Greece but it will take the Politicians to achieve this -maybe all those people who agree should start a petition on Facebook and at least force them to debate the issue in Parliament – I seem to remember they have to if they get 100,000.00 people signing before they are obliged to do this – or has that idea gone by the board as well?
“their governance rules once an object enters the museum it cannot be removed again”
LOL, well how convenient for them that they’ve made that rule for themselves and applied it to every article that they illegally placed in their museum!
Brilliant really.
If I picked up a neolithic artifact from Britain and placed it in my museum in a different country and then proceeded to state “my museum has a policy of never removing an artifact once we’ve placed it here” what would the UK say?
It’s all quite shamelessly entertaining to be honest.
@ Dap, excellent point whether or not the Turks gave permission is one of the main arguments surrounding the case. The claim for their removal being legal is the existance of a document from the Turks giving permission for the Marbles to be shipped abroad, that would suggest that the removal at that point was legal HOWEVER, that does not address the issue of the number of stones they were allowed to be removed and without the original document it seems we may never know.
@ Kelly – The British Museum was founded in 1753 with the collection of a scientist and physician Sir Hans Sloane, the rules of governance were set out on its foundation, twenty seven years before the purchase of the Marbles. The rule that objects cannot be removed was not a ‘convenience’ for the Museum to hold onto the stones, it was to keep Sloanes collection together and also so that the governments of the day could not flog the entire contents of the Museum to pay off debts etc…
Kelly. I rather think you’d be allowed under British legislation, unless it’s of extreme cultural significance, which is why there is always such gnashing of teeth when things like gold hoards turn up.
Our (Irish) legislation is quite different, finds technically belong to the State after the legal machinations around the Derrynaflan hoard in the 1980s.
No he was not given permission at the time. The Turks (not the Greeks!) allowed him to enter the Acropolis to make drawings and mouldings, measure the remains of the ruined buildings and excavate the foundations and told him that when he could take away ‘a few’ pieces of stone with old inscriptions. “Take away a few pieces of stone” doesn’t mean remove the sculptures from every walls of the Parthenon and its surrounding structures! In any languages.
(And these are exact quotes from the papers Elgin produced to the English parliament in his own defense)
Having just waded my way through Wikipedia, regrettably it’s a bit more complicated than that and seems to centre on a translated word from Italian into English on a permission document requested by the Brits. The original documents disappeared and exists only in Italian translation so there is no unequivocal way of knowing if the Italian document is correct. In addition to this Professor Merryman of Stanford University has pointed out- putting that discrepancy aside the Ottomans had controlled Athens since 1460 (320 years by the time the Marbles were removed) so their claims to the artefacts were legal and representable. This is a very, very short intepretation of the article and it’s worth a read. If it were simply a case that the aquisition was illegal it would be far easier to get the marble’s returned . Personally I think the moral argument for the return is stronger than the legal one , Greece is the cradle of Western culture, and it’s historial monuments should be returned from everywhere they have been scattered as part of European – and the wider world’s – shared history – jmo
There are 2 different problems:
– Does a Turkish official has the right to give away Greeks monuments? (Merryman’s arguments). I suppose you can answer “yes” or “no” depending of your moral/political/national point of view.
– Did the Turkish official even agree to give away the Parthenon marbles? That’s the factual question I’m interested in. Yes, the original Turkish documents has disapperead. But Elgin and his two assistants (Hunt and Lusieri) wrote about it in the different letters they send each other while some were in Constantinoples, while other were in Athens or in London. And those letters tell the same story as the Italien translation: they were allowed to take only the stones already detached from the temple. They slowly realized they could trick the local authorities into thinking that they could take more and here they went.
Unfortunately, those private lettres aren’t available on the internet (or maybe there are, but sorry I’m too lazy to look for them ;-)), but the (British!) historian William Saint-Clair had access to them and quoted large pieces of them in his book:
http://www.amazon.com/Lord-Elgin-Marbles-William-Clair/dp/0192880535/ref=la_B001IXQA7U_1_1
And when we say “take away” we are actually referring to crowbarring decorative bits of stone off and making shit of everything else (well, the stuff that wasn’t made shit of by the Venetians first of course). A precise, delicate operation it wasn’t.
Yes true. But then Egyptian artefacts should be given back to Egypt, Roman artefacts coming from Italy should be given back to Italy, the whole Etruscan collection at the Altes Museum in Berlin should be given back to Tuscany (Italy), as well Schliemann’s Troy treasure to Turkey….
Where do we start?
Well, it IS greek cultural heritage that was taken away from them.
It is Greek cultural heritage that the locals were destroying to use for building material at the time. It’s not like the Marbles were forcibly taken from people who we’re trying to conserve them!
It’s like half the stuff from Egypt – if the archeologists hadn’t whisked it off to some museum it would have been stolen by thieves and lost forever.
Excellent point.
Yep, my thought too.
I am greek. But I am very well aware that the brits saved those antiquities from destruction, in a time period were even more destruction stood before. Take a look at the parthenon: it was almost complete until 1687.
The brits collected everything was left, to save it from further harm. Today I don’t really care where the pieces are, I am just thankful they still exist.
Tapioca thank goodness you said that!
I am of Indian descent, and a lot of the things that are sitting in museums here in the UK could theoretically be the subject of being returned. However, I know exactly what would happen if they were sent back to be looked after by the Indian government. It would be disgraceful. The British museum, like all museums around the world have a massive collection of historical artefacts that are given the respect and care they deserve. I would rather see them well looked after here, than repatriated to a country that can’t sort itself out first.
I am a product of colonialism- I was raised in Kenya and England, therefore I know that a lot of what happened was cruel, and unjust- perhaps artefacts were stolen or taken, but it was in the past. All I know, is that they are very carefully looked after at the British museum, and who knows if they would have still existed had they remained there.
Tapioca
Ok. Let me break this down in a much simpler form.
I’m Greece. You’re the UK.
You live serveral town away from me. My house is being destroyed by terrible circumstances. People are looting my home and burning it down.
You come in and take some of my better stuff to protect it and save it.
Years go by and my home is rebuilt. I ask for my stuff you kindly saved for me back. You say no. You like it, want to keep it, and say if you give it back i won’t take as good of care of it as you do. Not to mention it looks nice in your collection and you make a profit charging people to see it.
Am I getting that right?
The locals? Do you even know anything about our history? It was a time of war, and the turkish allowed Elgin to take the marbles. And besides there is no danger anymore… Can we have them back now? They belong to the Greek museums, they are part of the Greek heritage. End of story!
Tapioca, so what you’re saying is, better the thief you know?
You’re right, someone else would probably have stolen them if the Brits hadn’t been there TO STEAL IT FIRST.
Make no mistake, what they did was thieving, only they didn’t hide it in the basement like your regular local thief, instead they placed it in their museum and made money off it by inviting people to see it and pay for the privilege!
That’s even better thievery than your average thief who sells the stolen object only once, but the British/French/German/US museums profit from their stolen artifacts again and again and again, every time a tourist (from the country that they stole it from, lol) pays them for the privilege to enter their museums.
I live in London but I’m not British. I personally don’t think it’s that black and white. The British Museum has played an important role in conserving many treasures which are the heritage of humanity, not simply any one culture. Also, London is the single most popular tourist destination in the world, so the artefacts are accessible to a lot more people than they would be if kept in Greece or indeed anywhere else – especially as the British Museum is free to visit. So I don’t buy a general provision that that the BM, or other museums should repatriate their antiquities. I think it should be considered on a case by case basis. In the case of the Elgin marbles I would support their return, as they are clearly of great cultural importance to Greece and its people, and Greece has recently built a very good new museum that will enable them to be housed safely.
FLORC, one minor clarification. The British Museum does not charge people to see its exhibits (except for special ones like Pompeii and Herculaneum that were just there for a short while). It’s free to go to and, in my opinion, breathtaking.
I was in London last year, went to the British Museum and have incredible photos of the Elgin Marbles, which is the big reason I went there. Wish I hadn’t been so boggled by them and the Egyptian antiquities that I forgot to go take a look at the Magna Carta, though!
I have visited Greece several times and spent time with the locals on the smaller Islands. Many of the ancients marble statues were destroyed over time and either ground down and used in roadways or for other structures. Thankfully others were preserved in museums.
We need to preserve our world history. If Greece has a facility that can house the Marbles, then they should try to reach an understanding. But one must understand that the British Museum has been the caretaker of this piece, it’s protector. I can see why it is difficult for them to relinquish this treasure.
Thanks bluhare.
So with that 1 bit about charging to view it i think my point is still solid.
Tank you Tapioca! The voice of reason! This is a topic that has been argues to ad nausea. I don not think it is ever going to happen. Setting precedents like that is risky for museums. As someone who is wanting to work in museums, it is important to preserve. A lot of people will never get the chance to travel to several cities and countries to see ancient monuments. Seeing these things in major cities like London for example, is far more likely. I do however think that the British govt. should perhaps pay royalty fees.
Kelly, as I noted above, the British Museum and the other ‘national’ museums in the UK are free for everyone to visit. Sometimes there’s a charge for special exhibitions, but never for the permanent collection.
I should always look one post down before I respond!!! 🙂
I know the permanent exhibition in the Br.Museum is free, but any other extra additional exhibition is not.
And all other world famous museums (famous for artifacts and works of art that do not belong to them) charge an entrance fee, and a very pricey one at that (Louvre, Hermitage, Prado, Berlin’s Museum Island, Munich’s Glyptothek, Vienna’s Kunsthistoriches Museum, the MET, etc.)
I love you, George, but what about the MET?????
And the Louvre? I used to feel the same way though. Hated it when medieval manuscripts (my subject) were sold out of the country or out of Europe to Asia or the US. But…museums like the Met, the British Museum and the Louvre give people a place to visit where specimen can be found of all the world’s cultures. There are so many people who would never see these things if they weren’t in a museum in a metropole.
And a bunch of other museums across America that hold dubiously acquired artifacts. Many Egyptian artifacts and artifacts from the Middle East were stolen and are now snuggled in quiet corners of American museums…including the Met, and Louvre and other museums across the world. Georgie just needs to shut up for 5 seconds.
I thought Egypt had done a pretty good job of getting most their stuff back? The last time I saw an Egyptian exhibit in an American museum, everything was either labeled “recreation” or “on permanent loan from the Egyptian government”. I just assumed they worked out some sort of tit-for-tat deal where the museum got to keep some minor-ish stuff and the more important items went back to Egypt.
I´m an Archaeologist who had insight in the cellars and depots of the Egyptian Museum in Kairo. They have thousands of uncared artefacts in every dark dusty corner. They aren´t interested in it… only foreign archaeologists and art historians are.
There are crates in rooms no one entered for decades. No joke! Countless crates… unopened for 100+ years because they have already too much stuff and are only interested in the “famous stuff” they can show tourists.
No one knows what´s in those crates, because they´ve lost all documents and the people who brought them are long dead. No one wants to open those crates because it would be “too much work for minor stuff”! They do not care! It drives me crazy!!!
Exactly. I’ve met a few Greek archaeologists and they all agree that the Elgin marbles were ‘safer’ at the BM than in Athens, this due to the fragile economical and political situation.
Yeah,as an African,we should also have our own lions,giraffes,hyenas,leopards back and on behalf of the eskimos,penguins should be taken back to the poles!!whats is up witj people owning things lyk that.I believe unless the artifacts were obtained fraudulently and/or in an illegal manner,then Greece has a case,as does the rest of other countries.But if otherwise,i dont know where controversy could arise.I also believe that this can set a very bad precedence and should not be encouraged.
Well a Danish zoo just ended a healthy giraffes life by using a bolt through its brain thn dissected it and fed it to the lions in front of an audience. Despite the fact that many people had tried to buy the giraffe from the zoo.
That was Marius the baby giraffe that they killed in Copenhagen. That story broke my heart. I can’t understand the justification as there was a zoo in Yorkshire willing to give lovely Marius a home. 🙁
I felt the same way. Horrified. Especially a there was a non lethal solution easily available.
The only good to come out of it is at least the lions got to eat him.
This is unbelievably picky…but penguins and Eskimos come from opposite poles. Penguins from the south and Eskimos from the north 🙂
Not personal. I also get annoyed when Santa is flanked with penguins…even though he’s not real he’s supposed to be from the North pole LOL
^^ This
Thank you 🙂
I feel really glad to have someone support that particular mental hole 🙂
I’m a Brit and I’m with George 😀
So how far does George like to go with this – returning the Mona Lisa to Florence?
I bet there is not one museum in the whole wide world that doesn’t have artifacts that “belong” to other nations or other cultures.
but did they plant a flag on the thing first before taking it? cuz you know it’s only legit when there’s a flag somewhere in play.
Eddie Izzard voice: “Do you have a flaaaaaaag”? 😆
Didnt think anyone else would get the reference. Ladies, you made my day!
Mona Lisa was paid for by french king François 1er. Da vinci was his guest and sold him many pieces of art.
Actually Da Vinci gave Mona Lisa as a gift to the King of France. So no stealing and no buying in this case. Just a gift to a friend. And Italy has long given up (if they ever did) demanding Mona Lisa back because it’s never going to happen.
The Mona Lisa remained Da Vinci’s property until his death and was bought by the french king from Da Vinci’s pupil.
There are 2 Mona Lisa’s BTW. An unfinished version Da Vinci worked on before the one that hangs in the Louvre now. The earlier unfinished version, called the Isleworth Mona Lisa, was found by a British art collector in the property of some rich British aristocrat.
Nope, that has never been proved. They just took it.
Italy has spent years trying to have it back.
An Italian painter willfully giving a painting to a French king isn’t the same as a British Lord removing a Greek national treasure after having – probably – forge a fake authorization from a Turk official.
Stick with the facts, Dap. YOu don’t know that his agreement was a forgery. You just hope it was.
1) I said “probably”.
2) As I said higher in the comments the original firman has been lost and all is left is a – much uncertain – Italian translation.
3) There are a lot of translation discrepancies between the surviving Italian document and the English text submitted by Elgin’s team to the British parliamentary committee (see the work of David Rudenstine on this subject).
4) Even if true, the document only allowed Elgin to enter the Acropolis to make drawings and mouldings, measure the remains of the ruined buildings, excavate the foundations and take away ‘a few’ pieces of stone with old inscriptions.
Have been to the British Museum? Does this qualify as “a few pieces of stones” to you?
Leonardo never gave anything to anyone.
Nobody is even sure the Mona Lisa was ever in France during Leonardo Da Vinci lifespan, given that the picture was painted in Italy.
They can keep Mona Lisa since they legally bought it, but they sure have another ten thousand stolen artifacts from Greece, Italy, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, etc.
No, they didn’t legally buy it!!!!
Mona Lisa is actually the most famous stolen artefact of the planet. Italy has spent the last 5 centuries to try and get it back, including the DaVinci family….
@Hiddles, I’m curious : what are your sources to say that the Mona Lisa was stolen? Wikipedia says it was bought by François 1er for 4,000 ecus in the early 17th century. There is not the slightest mention of any controvery concerning the ownership of the painting.
I’m graduating as an historian/archaeologist and we don’t use wikipedia lol
Francis I paid Leonardo to work for him and after his death he got all what Leonardo had carried with himself. In reality, there is no written document to prove Francis I actually bought the Mona Lisa.
The picture appeared in Fontainebleau about 100 years later.
Surely, it wasn’t stolen by Napoleon as someone believes. However the fact that it was legally purchased is still a matter of debate at this day.
P.S: to be honest, it is also a very ugly picture…… I’ve seen it at the Louvre about twenty years ago and it is a dark, small picture with almost no colours in it… :/
Considering the Greek government doesn’t even have enough money to protect the temples and antiquities that currently are in their country, I don’t see how they would have enough money to move all those Greek antiquities existing in museums around the world and then pay for their upkeep, protection and presentation.
Besides, as others have mentioned before, there are shady practices behind the acquisition of a lot of art currently residing in museums around the world and since the museums don’t actually make money but rather take up public and private resources, I can’t get upset about it. Sending all the items to were they are originally residing would not be practical at all.
I feel similarly about land, I live in a country which lost land last century due to an invasion and while there are some people still demanding we should get it back, the people currently living there have no ties to my country, don’t speak the language and are dirt poor so what would be the point of it imo.
There is a much larger and more general point about restitution for injustices of the past simply setting off a new set of injustices for the future because of the passage of time. Restitution to first peoples in North America and Oceania, for instance. The situation in Northern Ireland post partition, for instance. The situation in Israel, for instance. I agree that restitution is not a cure-all. But I do think equally that doing nothing at all and shrugging one’s shoulders is not a cure-all either. You know? (Not that I’m saying that’s what you are suggesting).
Do people realize this will never happen? Legally, there’s no case: History happened, it was a very different context (more than two hundreds years ago) and even if the British Museum (for example) did decide to give those artifacts back, it wouldn’t be possible as they belong to the British people (so there needs to be a vote in the Parliament I believe).
Besides it may be Greek cultural heritage but it’s also part of humanity heritage, and frankly it’s not like Greece doesn’t already have tons and tons of other artifacts. They’re not deprived of their history. If people (like George Clooney apparently who clearly doesn’t know much about this subject) want to be outraged, why not demand that the Ermitage in Saint Petersburg give back all the paintings stolen during WWII? There *is* a case for that. Not for events that happened several centuries ago.
Myrto from your name i gather you are Greek, right? Could you explain your first argument ”even if the British Museum (for example) did decide to give those artifacts back, it wouldn’t be possible as they belong to the British people (so there needs to be a vote in the Parliament I believe).” Who says they belong to the British people? And as far as your 2nd argument , just because our heritage is rich does not mean that we should not claim what is rightfully ours!
“Who says they belong to the British people?” The law.
That means the British Museum can’t just decide on its own to give anything back (if they ever decided to do so) as a law prevents them from them from doing exactly that. I don’t remember what it’s called but it’s in place and therefore there would need to be a Parliamentary vote to allow them to do that. So basically, the director of the museum can’t just one day wake up and decide to send back all those Greek artifacts.
Again, those artifacts don’t just belong to Greece and the Greeks, they belong to everybody, a point people are often missing in their claims for art restitution. It’s not just Greek history, it’s humanity’s history.
Following that logic, each country should only have pieces of art of their own history.
Because let’s be consistent: if Britain has to give back stuff (which, again were often acquired under very specific circumstances and context), so do all the museums in the world. So let’s ask for all the Picasso and Monet paintings that are displayed in American museums, and for all the Vietnamese art in Chinese museums (back when China was ruling Vietnam) or all the European art displayed all over the world in various museums. Ridiculous, right?
I do not know how it goes legally and honestly i do not care about the sequence of actions that are required. The Greek government has repeatedly asked for the return of the marbles and has every right to do so.The Greek artifacts belong to Greece and that is why they are called Greek. They were made by Greek people and they are connected to the Greek history. If other countries had their monuments taken from them they also have the right to claim them back. Just because England does not have enough artifacts to fill its own museums does not give them the right to keep the foreign ones.
@Myrto: no, not ridiculous for nations to desire that their works of art that were obtained by another nation by unsavory means be returned to their rightful owners. Calling it ‘humanity’s history’ doesn’t make it any less wrong.
And if the British Museum doesn’t follow proper procedure in giving them back, marina, they would be guilty of the same thing that got them the artifacts in the first place, assuming that they were taken by fraudulent means.
If they go back to Greece, it should be done legally.
You misunderstood me,Bluhare. I meant that it must be done what is necessary and i would not care less about the inconvinience, of cource. All i care about is to be able to admire my ancestors’ magnificent work in my own country!
Marina I am sorry but you opened the can of worms first. Unlike Greece, England has a long history where it ruled and brought civilization to half of the world, admittedly often by ruthless means, dragged the world into the industrial revolution and produced countless works of art. England. Not ancient Greece to which current Greece has in common some rudiment of language plus the location. Since Ancient Greece, what it’s known about those who inherited the country and changed it after embracing Christian Orthodox faith is that they were ruled by Turks longer than anyone else in the region and in modern times cheated to be able to qualify for the Euro, bankruptcy, asking for financial help from IMF and EU over and over again without implementing half of the required reform, claiming that all the money they receive was actually deserved for the German crimes of WW2, all this while Greek pensions were statistically higher than the German one.
It’s really not attractive for a country to have their only claim to greatness based entirely on location, and expecting the rest of the world to fund you forever because of it. I shiver to think what would have happened o the Elgin Marbles in Greece. I’ve been to museums in London and I’ve been in Greece and the ways artifacts are treated in these countries are worlds apart.
are we really going to compare civilizations? If you want to find out about Greece’s influence in the World you can open a book or two. Your second point really hurt me because i’m Greek and and my country lives in troublesome times. Not only you are implying that there is no relevance between the Ancient Greeks and the Modern ones, you are also referring to us as corrupt.(Well that was really offensive) Do you have any idea how hard measures did the Greek government take in order to be able to repay the debts? Do you know that i am 20 years old in a country where i cannot build my future? Well excuse me for trying to preserve my past which is the only thing i have left. Do not worry ,I will work my butt off to repay the great kindness of the Europeans… who loan us money out of the goodness of their hearts!
@marina
No, Ancient Greeks and Modern Greeks are not even relatives. This is not just about you, but if I was following your reasoning I’d be a Roman, which is highly unlikely after 2000 years….. And to live in the past, for every culture, is a serious mistake.
Past can make you feel part of a heritage, it can give you a historical identity, however it can’t provide you with a future.
That is up to you and all the young Greeks out there.
And yes, your government seems corrupt, as the Spanish/Portuguese/Italian ones. One of my best friends is Greek and lives in Athens so she continuously updates me about the whole situation.
You know i do not want to sound like a sovinist but i like to believe that the Greek spirit lives on through the generations. Maybe it is a romantic idea and i am dillusional but you cannot change my mind on that one. Besides all these great minds of physics and mathematics that are exported from Greece and work in the universities abroad are a great proof of the fact.
Economy is not that simple so as to call someone corrupt and get it over with. Greece is a small country that was unable to bare the Economic crash which many countries had to face .And yes there is corruption among the politicians but that does not make a whole nation responsible, nevertheless we all have to face the consequences.
@marina
It is definitively romantic. But I guess that in dark times lots of people look at the past and have a romantic idea about a Golden Age that is not there anymore.
Well there are brilliant minds everywhere, from Australia to Thailandia and so on, so I don’t think that can be proof of descendance from Ancient Greece.
Of course you’re not changing your mind or how you feel, OMG that would be wrong. Just saying that a lot of people invest a lot of their time and energy about heritage whilst they should maybe invest more of them for a better future.
I will just respond to your last sentence because i cannot go on and on about the same stuff, i think i made my point. It is not like we do not care about our future, i think that we are in a reconstructive period and at some point Greece will rise from its ashes. It will take time but it will happen and that is called hope my friend. These romanticized ideas that you might mock are the ones that give my people hope and strenght to carry on.
Well I might suggest that ‘mock’ isn’t the right term to use for what I stated in my post given that I’m a student of ancient History and languages. The past doesn’t come back, ever. To dwell in past glory is just wrong (not just about you or Greece… it makes me laugh when some Britons say “once we had an empire!” pfft… ok…).
But maybe it’s just the language/culture barrier or you’re too young to understand.
ΚΑΛΗ ΤΥΧΗ
Greece has a lot of buildings, but the best of their artifacts almost all reside in Britain. So your argument is: history happened, why does Greece care because they already have lots of other crap, and since we’re all people we can technically say we all same a shared heritage so it doesn’t matter where things are?
That’s a thieves argument like…
The bank has millions! Would they really care if i took a few hudred thousand?
Or.. my neighbor has 3 cars and 2 motorcycles for just himself while i have nothing. Surely he wouldn’t miss 1 car, right?
Myrto I agree, there is no case in the current international law proceedings, and this will never happen.
But I disagree that the artifacts belong to the British people. They are a product of Greek craftsmanship and Greek history, they belong to Greece. Britain has many riches of its own, no need to take what other nations created.
Marina, i am not implying, I am stating: there is no link between modern and ancient Greece besides location and some rudiments of culture maybe. As the poster above said, we would be all Roman, Gals or anything that dates 2000 years. Secondly, I’m if you’re hurt by the statement that Greece is corrupt. In my view, yes, of course it is, as most Eastern European and Latin countries, it’s a cultural thing, linked with poverty, tradition, limited historic relevance and a need for personal survival in a country that meant nothing politically for hundreds of years leaving individuals to tend foe themselves.
But this is only a part of the problem. What is worrying is that in front of studies coming from extremely reputed sources proving over and over again that when countries are next to economical catastrophe in the context of the European and international crisis it is mostly because the fake financial security came down crumbling when it wasn’t possible anymore to leave on credit and to cheat your own financial system. Economically viable countries suffered but survived.
And I choose to believe that you take the “romantic” approache because you’re 20. But some realism and hard work would be advisable and might help get the country out the deep pit where it currently is.
You might want to read some international economical papers and find out that the country needs to reform itself if it wants to survive. Getting money and being snotty about it proves that you do not understand the dimension of your tragedy. Europe will help because after Greece sneaked its way into the euro system – I’m an economist and I know what I am taking about – the whole system is intrinsecally linked that having a party kicked out would have devastating consequences. But I, as the rest of the Europeans funding your inability to get yourself out of the damn mess, would appreciate not to be lectured about how the world and especially Europe ows you anything. The money you get is supposed to help you reform a rotten and unefficient system and not to finance your lifestyle for ever. Again, the average Greek pension was higher than the average German pension. Do you want to compare economic performance? And speaking of small countries, take Switzerland for example, a small country as well. What did they have and you didn’t ? I am sorry but it drives mad to see these tirades over the damn marbles. The country’s in f****k shambles, all Europe is desperately trying to save it – obviously not for the goodness of their hearts, but fact is, they’re working on it – and the Greek authorities find the time to thank a frickin Hollywood for a casual answer. Maddening ! Set your priorities straight people! Maybe waxing poetically about a great past which you have nothing to do with would be more acceptable if your current situation wouldnt be this disastruous…
So….is Cate Blanchett not doing promotion because of PSH or because of Woody Allen? mmmmmm………..If she wins that Oscar, will she be singing WA”s praises again after being called out by Dillion Farrow….it will be interesting!
Woody Allen. No doubt about it in my mind.
I bet it’s a bit of both. I wonder if woody will be snubbed or praised this award season? There will be some reflection of opinion.
I agree. I think it is a bit of both. I absolutely believe she is grieving for her friend PSH and has looked very down since his passing. However, combine that tragedy with the controversy surrounding Allen, and Blanchett probably decided she needed a break from the red carpet and press. If Blue Jasmine wins any Oscars, I can’t see how people would avoid praising Allen, but it would have to come across as very tactful and muted in a way. I don’t think Blanchett would feel comfortable going all out in singing his praises on stage, but she’d probably thank him for his work on the film. That’s my guess.
A lot of European countries have their own ancient/historical monuments & art work from their own countries – dig into the bogs. So, no, museums across the world would not be empty. And yes, it is right that the UK ought to return every piece of artwork & artefact that they have looted from across the world. Wouldn’t it be better to see artwork etc in their own countries – an incentive to travel & experience objects within their own cultures. Museums across the world engage in loans & touring exhibitions so there is no need to retain stolen goods.
That is just rubbish. It also means that you wouldn’t see the Egyptian collection or even Mona Lisa at the Louvre because they’re not French……
I think he has a point, but he is casting too wide a net. What I mean by that is, yes, certain things that are culturally significant to the country like The Elgin Marbles, should be returned. In addition to this, things that have been taken forcibly from the country.
However, if things have been acquired legally and the country that originally owned them is happy for them to stay, why should they be removed? In addition to this, as someone mentioned earlier, museums get things on loan all the time. The Kelvingrove Museum in Glasgow often has displays which are loaned to them, or on tour, I have been to two, there was the Doctor Who Exhibit, which was really good and also an Ancient Egyptian Exhibit which was amazing.
So I understand the arguments against, but I feel that these issues could be adequately managed with the right approach and some reasonableness (yes, I know that is asking a lot!)
I agree with you.
If Greece was a stronger nation this wouldn’t he an issue. They would have been returned ages ago.
And i also agree.
Ideally, all artifacts that were not legally acquired should be returned to the original country/culture. Then, those countries can lend said artifacts to other museums.
Oh well since George thinks it, then it should be done immediately.
Not only Greek antiques, if British museums were to give back all artifacts to the countries they came from most museums would be closed. Its widely known that British treasure hunters stole artifacts far and wide and brought them to England to display as if it was theirs.
I’m not defending modern museums hanging onto items that were clearly looted or acquired under, ahem, questionable means (#mostmuseumshavenaziloot), but even a hundred years ago the attitude toward excavating and finding archaeological items was very different. It wasn’t just Brits, either; pretty much anyone interested in archaeology followed the age-old principle of “finder’s keepers”. I’m not saying that that is right or good, but it is a different context to how we understand such things today. Most of the people who originally found these items were not being a-holes. They genuinely believed in preservation and wanted to make great historical treasures available to people to see and study. They just didn’t have the same, “If it’s buried in Egypt, it belongs in Egypt,” attitude that we do today. I’m sure there were some jerks just in it to find shiny bits and sell them to private collectors back home, but a lot of people, like Lord Elgin, acted out of a spirit of preservation and education.
The others did the same. Did you ever visited an Italian or German museum?
The subject of MM is interesting to me, but the reviews say not so much. I do think the Brit’s should return the goods (likewise, all countries – unless they were obtained thru appropriate channels).
I finally saw Blue Jasmine this weekend. CB was really great in it (all the actors were), but boy is that a bleak story.
But how would they make money then? 😀
He’s right of course, never mind just the Brit. Museum, the Louvre, MET, Pergamon Museum, Munich Gylptotheke, etc. should all do the same.
They won’t of course.
If the Greek art had stayed in Greece it would have been destroyed ages ago. Elgin–who did have permission from the proper authorities in charge at the time, the Turks–saved the Parthenon sculptures by removing them. All that history was saved because it was removed. I realize this is a touchy subject for some, but given the state of the Greek government, who’s to say what would happen to those artifacts if they were returned.
And as far as those artifacts being historically relevant to the World’s history, they get viewed a lot more in London than they would in Greece. Especially given the state if the Greek government, people are more likely to travel to London and visit the Britsh Museum than travel to Greece.
Clooney has no idea what he’s talking about and needs to shut up. I realize it’s a nice sound byte, especially for the Greek papers, but he needs to stop talking about things he doesn’t know about.
Yes, Elgin’s situation was so clear that he was called a vandal by Byron (amongst other) at the time and that the British parliament decided to create a parliamentary committee to investigate the whole situation. The way the Elgin marbles were took away from Greece was a big scandal at the time, not just now.
Like anyone should pay any attention to what Byron says about wrongful acts.
Certainly there is a HUGE case for repatriation of the original possessions to countries of origin~COPIES can be made, we have the technology certainly to do so, and the COPIES remain with the museums that have possession currently while the originals are sent “home”. Case closed. When we were in Italy we found out that most of the artwork currently on display outside of museums are copies of the originals, that have been removed for safe keeping. What no one talks about is the whole scale looting and destruction of Iraq that occured during the war~millions of things were destroyed or stolen outright, but no one talks about THAT. Throughout history “to the victor go the spoils” has been the creed, and certainly there has not been any enlightenment even in these times to end that train of thought. Not just cultural artifacts, but the rape of women and the slaughter and displacement of innocent civilians continues unabated. As a planetary population we HAVE the resources to deal with these humane issues but fail to do so.
“Monuments Men” was awesome, but in the interests of full disclosure I am an art history nerd. 😉 Tears came to my eyes when I saw some of the artwork that had been destroyed, I had no idea so much was lost during that time. Part of the reason we have to keep “re-inventing the wheel” is that so much IS lost and destroyed. The sacking of the library in ancient Alexandria is one of the worst cultural destruction episodes in human history; and when the Yellow Emperor (Huang Di, terra cotta warriors dude) came to power in China over 2500 years ago he destroyed all of the Acupuncture & Herb information that his administration could get their hands on so that he could compile and take credit for HIS masterpiece which we still use today~who knows how much information was lost then as well. The pyramids of Egypt are over 8000 years old, and such a marvel of construction and astronomical and geometric precision that even with all of our current technology we STILL could not build them today. “Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it”.
Are you kidding? The looting of museums and other artifacts from Iraq, Egypt Libya, Syria during the recent wars is always on the news. Perhaps your news doesn’t cover it.
The sad thing is that in this modern era, all that loot is going into private collections. Never to be seen again. At least the British (and other museums) are displaying their artifacts.
I’m still outraged that the taliban were allowed to blow up 2000yr old buddhas. So many organisations and governments around the world offered to buy them, but no, the Taliban blew them up just to spite us all (yes, I know they used religion as the excuse, but it was an act of vandalism and spite)
And by the way, it was very rich of China to demand the return of artifacts from Yves Saint Laurent’s estate on the grounds that they’d disappeared during the cultural revolution…..hello, the main event during the cultural revolution was to destroy all such culturally significant items so that Chinese could be better communists and Maoists!!!
The buddhas were the first thing that came to my mind when I read the article. I think one of the arguments for the British would be that the Elgin marbles are in a stable environment, a stable society, while the Greek governement has its problems at the moment.
An interesting anecdote about China: in the Forbidden City, one pavilion displays a huge collection of imperial objects that a man saved during the cultural revolution and then gave to the chinese governement at the exact right moment. Had he been discovered with the items in his possession, he would probably have finished his life in prison for being against communism. Had he kept them too long, he would have ben in huge legal trouble with the present governement. Had he not done anything, they would have been destroyed or sold to private collections…
Yup. +1
I’m forever grateful that Chiang Kai Shek had big fast boats. The Chinese antiquities in the Taiwanese Museum in Taipei are heart-stoppingly beautiful, and if he hadn’t stolen them, Mao would have had them destroyed. I have no illusions about Chiang Kai Shek’s motives, but I am still awfully glad that things went the way they did.
Now a question for those who know about preservation and erosion … I remember reading around the time of the Athens Olympics that pollution in Athens was so bad that it was corroding ancient edifices. If Greece was to receive these things, are there sufficient controlled environments? When I was in Greece a few years back, I noticed that some of the things had been vandalized with spray paint graffiti. That doesn’t happen often in museums.
Phly,
I too love art history. When ABC Nightline used to air. They did a segment on Iraq during the US invasion and the looting of the artifacts that the museum held. A few curators of the museum tried to get pieces back that we being stolen by residents and soldiers. It was very sad and with Iraq being originally Mesopotamia, this was not just Iraq history this was “human history”.
While I agree in principal that in an ideal world all artifacts would be with their country of origin and be ‘lent’ to world museums for specific displays etc. It’s not that simple. If the UK agreed to return what Greece is asking for, could they ask to be compensated for the money spent “looking after” (for want of a better term) these artifacts. Presumably a lot of antiquities need carefully handling, some in special temperatures/conditions?
Ultimately it’s one of those complicated world issues that won’t be solved easily. Despite George Clooney’s on the spot declaration.
“could they ask to be compensated for the money spent “looking after” (for want of a better term) these artifacts”
Not really because they obtained them illegally in the first place. Nice that you looked after them, but you had no right to be in charge of them at all – that kind of line of thinking applies here, I presume.
If someone stole the Mona Lisa would they ask the Louvre to pay them for the years they spent taking care of it in the basement?
The museums in the US would be virtually empty then – especially the Getty Museum!!
What makes your indigenous archaeology less worthy of exhibition? Notwithstanding my reply to Mark Wilson below, history isn’t just made up of the big flashy showpieces, society and heritage is made up of all the little pieces of life that fall in the cracks in-between.
A friend of mine is a US archaeologist and she has worked on a remarkable collection of sites over there with really intriguing finds. She shared some of the text for an exhibition she’s working on for her latest qualification and it’s really interesting stuff to me.
Typical know-it-all Yank
I guess this is only an issue because it’s British. There are thousands of artifacts
facts from British history that are no longer in the country, many stolen.
How about we start with this: http://www.themorgan.org/collections/collections.asp?id=79
Stolen from a 12th C Bible in made in England and now in an American “Museum”
There is more Chippendale furniture in America than there now is in England, rich Americans basically went on a shopping spree around a socially and economically devastated Britain post WW1. All acquired in very dubious circumstances.
And WTF is this doing in America??
http://www.metmuseum.org/collections/search-the-collections/23936
Basically STFU
Mark Wilson,
Regarding “And WTF is this doing in America?”
Answer – The aristocratic Brit family Pembroke sold said item (King Henry VIII’s field armor) to American Henry Mackay in 1924. In this instance at least, a Yank did not steal another nation’s artifact.
Here’s the well documented provenance.
Henry VIII > The First Earl of Pembroke, Henry’s esquire and estate executor > 1924 Pembroke family sold it to American Clarence Mackay >1931 Mackay donated it to the Met
That suit of armor was purchased legally, and its provenance is clearly listed on the site. There’s a bunch of stolen stuff in every museum (also a bunch of fakes–17% of every work of art in public display is forged, and in most cases, the curators know and display it anyway), but there is also a lot of perfectly legal, purchased or loaned items. It sucks that, in Britain, one tiny percentage of the population owned a lot of the cool stuff that they then sold off as their estates crumbled in the early 20th century, but those were legal sales. This is a touchy enough subject without dragging legal sales into question just because you don’t like the fact that some duke sold his art collection to an American banker in 1922.
Not the same thing at all, I’m afraid. Those examples are personal effects and furniture, which while I as a heritage specialist would prefer to keep them in their historical context, have always had some fluidity of ownership.
The Elgin Marbles are site-specific religious artefacts , which remain of of deeply historical and social significance in their home city, as the vision of possibly one of the greatest statesmen ever, Pericles. Their entire raison d’être is to be in that location, especially the tympanum and metopes from the Parthenon which were so precisely conceived by Phidias. To this end they have absolutely no context in their present location and just cannot be appreciated properly.
This is not a recent movement at all; I remember my Greek Archaeology lecturer (a Brit as it goes) being quite passionate about their return 20 years ago.
Now if you want a real heritage crime committed by a US citizen – look into that all-round jackass William Randolph Hearst’s purchase of an old Cistercian monastery abbey and it’s shipping to the US. That’s not even the worst part; that’s the quarrying of the stones to build a new chapter house in New Clairveaux in California. The mason has the gall to call this “reconstruction” even though he’s using a rotary saw to cut off the historic, hand-tooled surfaces to get a shiny, new regular stone. Why the fuck he doesn’t use new stone is beyond me. Disgusting vandal of the worst kind. I’ll tell you here and now it wouldn’t happen in Britain or Ireland- I’ve put manners on builders and architects for less!
Actually, Stephen Fry has already said all that needs to be said on this matter:
http://youtu.be/J0IYBCCBA0g
I know this is a touchy discussion but what a great place this is!! How many other gossip sites have Jennifer Aniston and Greek antiquities discussions (both getting tons of responses) on the same page??
While I was studying abroad, a professor told me, “The only British thing about the British Museum is the name.” Most of the exhibits in that museum are not British. I was intrigued to find Confederate currency as part of an American exhibit there!
I think the Elgin marbles should be given back to Greece, but this issue is more complex and far-reaching than just the Elgin marbles: other countries’ artifacts are affected, as well. Would the home countries of precious artifacts have adequate facilities to care for their artifacts? Does the current possessor of precious artifacts have the right to insist that home countries develop and maintain safe facilities for the artifacts? Is it safe to transport all of the artifacts? Is it better to have, for example, the British Museum’s collection of artifacts viewable by many people than to return all the artifacts to their places of origin and thus have them viewable by a smaller number of people?
There are a lot of important issues here, as tangible pieces of human history are involved. These artifacts were crucial in the development of later societies and of our current paradigm, and the question of what happens to these artifacts is thus relevant to us all.
I have been to the museums in Berlin and that house treasures such as the Mshatta facade of a deserted Islamic palace, The Ishtar Gate from Babylon, the bust of Egyptian Queen Nefertiti. and the Pergamon Alter, from Greece. Berlin has many works of art that were plundered from around the world, and has yet to return them.
I just read a book on this that made me rethink a lot of this: http://www.amazon.com/Finders-Keepers-Archaeological-Plunder-Obsession/dp/0316066427
I think George is right, I think the Greeks are right, I think the other cultures that are asking for their antiquities back are right. It’s difficult, because I do think that it’s important for people around the world to be able to view these things. But these countries could loan their antiquities out. It would be a nice source of income and agency for them, and places like the Louvre and the Met could still have artifacts from all over.
I think that’s a great idea. Should the British give back the artifacts to Greece, let’s have American government and people return the land to Native Americans. Fair is fair
That was my first thought-where do we draw the line? I will have to move since my home is on land that belonged to Native Alaskans, then was taken over by the Russians, finally sold to the US.
I happen to love the British Museum, and I hope the artifacts stay exactly where they are. Aren’t museums places where people can find out about different cultures, possibly learn something new? Is Greece going to give back everything it stole from the nations it conquered?
I wouldn’t mind if the Greek antiquities in the British Museum were sent back to Greece. Not really sure how they all ended up there in the first place, nor do I really care. But if you start sending back artifacts back to their countries of origin, why stop at the British Museum? The Met in NYC has mummies too and tons of other artifacts from other civilizations. If the British Museum did accept to send back all the stuff to Greece, that would set a precedent for other countries and everyone would start demanding things to be sent back left and right. Let’s return all the Monet paintings to France. Let’s return all the Incan pottery back to South America. Let’s return XYZ to Japan… all the museums would become empty and nobody would go!
The British Museum has taken stuff from around the world or accepted donations of antiquities that were taken and it is one of the tourist drawcards. So although the museum is free, there is profit made by England as a result of these thefts.
….and whilst they’re at it, they should also return the persian artifacts including the declaration of human rights!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wait.. can Florence have the Mona Lisa back?
Because fair is fair and Leonardo Da Vinci was born and lived in the Dukedom of Tuscany, not France!!!
Except that the Mona Lisa was not taken from Italy by the French, it was taken by Leonardo da Vinci when he was invited to the French Court and then given or sold to his patron, the french king. That is a completely different situation. Or should all the Sargent paintings go to the US because he was American, despite the fact that they were bought by people of different nationalities?
(If this was a joke, I apologise for not getting it.)
Hiddles, I’m curious : what are your sources to say that the Mona Lisa was stolen? Wikipedia says it was bought by François 1er for 4,000 ecus in the early 17th century.