I really don’t like it when Game of Thrones book-readers complain about the changes David Benioff and D.B. Weiss have made to George R.R. Martin’s characters and stories. Benioff and Weiss have never claimed to be making a straight-up, word-for-word adaptation of Martin’s books, and Martin has always maintained that they have their own vision for the show. It’s my understanding that Weiss and Benioff are in constant contact with Martin about the TV storylines, especially now that the show is outpacing the books in some places.
After this Sunday’s episode, in which Sansa Stark was raped by Ramsey Bolton on their wedding night, Martin knew that people would be complaining. So he wrote a livejournal blog post about it. His thoughts? Page-to-screen adaptations are always difficult and changes are always going to be made. So who cares? Here’s Martin’s post (I made some minor edits for space):
I am getting a flood of emails and off-topic comments on this blog about tonight’s episode of GAME OF THRONES. It’s not unanticipated. The comments… regardless of tone… have been deleted. I have been saying since season one that this is not the place to debate or discuss the TV series. Please respect that.
There are better places for such discussions: Westeros, Tower of the Hand, Watchers on the Wall, Winter Is Coming, the comments sections of the television critics who regularly follow the show: James Hibberd, Alyssa Rosenberg, Mo Ryan, James Poniewozik, and their colleagues. I am sure all those sites will be having a healthy debate.
I have a lot of fans asking me for comment. Let me reiterate what I have said before.
How many children did Scarlett O’Hara have? Three, in the novel. One, in the movie. None, in real life: she was a fictional character, she never existed. The show is the show, the books are the books; two different tellings of the same story.
There have been differences between the novels and the television show since the first episode of season one. And for just as long, I have been talking about the butterfly effect. Small changes lead to larger changes lead to huge changes. HBO is more than forty hours into the impossible and demanding task of adapting my lengthy (extremely) and complex (exceedingly) novels, with their layers of plots and subplots, their twists and contradictions and unreliable narrators, viewpoint shifts and ambiguities, and a cast of characters in the hundreds.
There has seldom been any TV series as faithful to its source material, by and large (if you doubt that, talk to the Harry Dresden fans, or readers of the Sookie Stackhouse novels, or the fans of the original WALKING DEAD comic books)… but the longer the show goes on, the bigger the butterflies become. And now we have reached the point where the beat of butterfly wings is stirring up storms, like the one presently engulfing my email.
Prose and television have different strengths, different weaknesses, different requirements. David and Dan and Bryan and HBO are trying to make the best television series that they can. And over here I am trying to write the best novels that I can. And yes, more and more, they differ. Two roads diverging in the dark of the woods, I suppose… but all of us are still intending that at the end we will arrive at the same place.
In the meantime, we hope that the readers and viewers both enjoy the journey. Or journeys, as the case may be. Sometimes butterflies grow into dragons.
I like the way he handled it. Martin usually defends Weiss and Benioff and I truly believe they all have a close personal and professional friendship. Martin managed to defend their vision for the characters while basically saying he would have made (and has made) different choices for Sansa Stark. And let’s be real – Martin is a feminist, but he puts certain characters (male and female) through the wringer on a regular basis. Yes, Sansa Stark was raped on her wedding night and it was awful. Awful things have happened to many of the beloved and hated characters in the GoT world. I don’t think Weiss and Benioff are awful people for writing a scene where Sansa is raped, but some of that is contingent on what happens next and just how awful it will be for her from here on out. Is she a survivor or a victim? And how do you write that?
Photos courtesy of WENN, HBO.
My only complaint as a book reader is that there was already so much sexual violence in place. Did we need more? I’m starting to feel gross for watching it.
How can you say that as a book reader when the books are far more graphic. Even that Sansa scene was way worse in the books.
I’m confused. I don’t remember Sansa marrying Ramsey in the books. Has he written another book? In the last one I read, Sansa was still at her aunt’s. I thought I had read them all, but now I am not sure.
That was Jeyne Poole, not Sansa.
I forgot to add that to me, there is a difference in reading it and seeing it. I’m not saying that makes sense, but when I’m reading, I can take a break if it becomes overwhelming. I feel like I have more “control” than when I’m watching it on TV.
???????????????
Sansa is still a virgin in the books….
Why would anyone watch or read anything with sexual violence in it? Do people not know it feeds the beast, so to speak.
If in a story the woman or man who has been assaulted comes back and cuts the head off of the perpetrator than it shifts the narrative, gives quick consequence, and as many woman who have been able to kill their attacker knows it gives great relief and empowerment.
Wonder if the boys are brave enough to write that into their show?
In the books, Cersei sends Sansa’s friend Jeyne to the Boltons disguised as Arya. The wedding night scene is worse as Theon is forced to actively participate and neither can reveal that she is not Arya because Ramsey will kill them both
Jeyne Poole is fake Arya in the book. On the wedding night Ramsay rapes her but Theon is an active participant! Imagine if the show had gone there.
I can’t believe I’m defending Theon, but he was more of a “forced” participant. I did read the books, but am not finished watching season 4 so didn’t see it. But I understand for time’s sake why they combined Jeyne Poole/Sansa. And the Vale is almost as boring as Mereen, anyway.
Goodnames- I’m the same way. I can handle a lot more if I’m reading it bc I can choose to imagine or not imagine specifics. Example: The Road. I managed to read the book but didn’t even attempt watching the movie.
The sexual violence in the books was so much worse. Are book readers seriously forgetting what Ramsey did to women in the books? Or what he did to the character Sansa is now playing? Let’s just say his dogs and Reek were involved and leave it at that. HBO’s version doesn’t make me loose my stomach and want to bash my head like the books.
Sansa was nothing but a perpetual victim in the books. No she didn’t get raped but so many near misses and threats of rape at every turn. GOT is not your traditional predictable storyline of victims finding retribution. Show watchers still haven’t learned this lesson after Ned Stark and the Red Wedding. The whole series corrupts traditional story arcs, crushing your dreams of Disney endings and “happily ever after”.
Well said OTC.
I’m not saying the show is more violent than the books, only that the books had so much violence, why are they adding more. I had forgotten what Ramsey did to the girl he thought was Sansa, though. So in a way, they are staying true to Ramsey’s character.
And its quite fascinating that despite everything people still thinking that some disney/hollywood ending will happen.
But I must confess, as devoted book series I hate GoT basically since season 1, well maybe 2 (because Florence Nightingale , for f**k sake, using Bronn’s words) the only joy I have from the show is ability to read in internet opinions and predictions unspoiled people. Many, many laughts over the years, I still remember after Lady’s execution someone wishful thinking about happy ending Queen Sansa with her sister, member of Queensgard Arya. Oh, these sweet summer children from internet 🙂
No, we’re not saying that, but you’re missing the point. GoT show runners have been claiming up and down for 5 season that they are forced to leave out certain characters and certain plots because there just isn’t enough air time – yet, somehow, there’s always enough time to throw in an extended scene of sex or violence – sometimes both – which is usually demeaning to women. You mean to tell me they don’t have time to show an amazing flashback scene when JoJen Reed is describing the ‘Knight of the Laughing Tree’ to Bran, which is almost certainly the story of when Lyanna first meets Rhaegar – but they have time to show an extended scene of Theon banging a sea captain’s daughter? Violence, like it or not is an integral, part of GoT, but there’s certainly more to the novels, and the show, than gratuitous sex scenes and violence.
Apparently, the next book has a Sansa chapter that is going to be very controversial.
“Controversial” chapter from the next book is on GRRM site since few months. It’s not really controversial 🙂
I agree with Ephipany. The choices they make with the time is their business, but I’m side-eyeing the fact that they manage to make the story worse, not better. If that’s what you’re doing with your adaptions, then you’re not doing that great of a job.
Also, I hate the “it was more violent in the books so stop complaining!” argument. The show has the ability to improve the plot, and yet time and time again they make choices that make it worse than the books (and for books 4 and 5, that’s saying something). It’s lazy, that’s what it is.
Can’t figure out why GoT has female fans. It’s so rapey and violent! Why reward that? It’s someone’s gross and creepy sexual fantasy. Ick.
My guess is that “All men must die,” but in the end the women shall rule. Dany, Arya, or Sansa is going to “win” the game.
GRRM actually gives the women something to do beside being rescued. They have their own sorces of power and are often bad-asses in their own right. The women will win the game in the end despite the men’s best efforts to stymie that.
http://imgur.com/gallery/nu2Mipb
It’s not about what happens to them but how well they are written, how compelling they are in their own right. I prefer that over some stupid Mary-Sue who can “win” in other stories.
Canoki The women will win the game in the end despite the men’s best efforts to stymie that.
Pinky says:
My guess is that “All men must die,” but in the end the women shall rule. Dany, Arya, or Sansa is going to “win” the game.
Don´t put your expectations/desires/ projections too high
We ´re not in Disneyland anymore toto…
And everybody is dying
Thank you. I was beginning to wonder why anyone thinks this series is feminist. There is so much sexual violence in these books they should have a trigger warning. While Martin may not be sexist he is no more a feminist than EL James.
Dany got raped. Cersei got raped. Sansa got raped. Any other main characters gettin’ raped? I certainly take issue with the TV show – especially when the inject rape scenes that were originally consensual/non-existant. Also, Sansa apparently got raped to motivate Theon? Lets focus some more on how her rape affected Theon… This show sucks.
I really thought the rape was unnecessary. I would have liked it alot better if sansa seduced ramsey for her own purposes. I feel like that would be better for moving the plot than oh poor sansa a victim again.
GRRM is an SOB to his characters and maybe even his fans. The GoT world is not a nice place, almost ever, he good guys rarely if ever win, if they’re lucky, they survive. I wish I hadn’t gotten so addicted to the books before I realized this, makes the series frustrating.
I feel like this has been really overblown. IMO, this season has been superb because we finally don’t know what could happen. Sansa’s storyline has kept me on the edger of my seat.
It’s certainly more interesting than the book. Not the rape scene, but her marrying Ramsey. My recollection is that her story sort of just stalled in the book while she was at her aunt’s.
Thats how I feel. It bugs me too when people are saying that that rape was about Theon and his pain,which isn’t true. By focusing on him he is in turn a reflection of the audience. His pain in that moment is everybody’s pain.
The reason people are saying that is not only because the camera held to Theon’s face. These choices mean something, and many people feel that choosing to highlight Theon in that moment indicates that Sans’a rape and further mistreatment will be used to further Theon’s storyline. Sansa has ALREADY experienced horrific abuse in her time at Winterfell, and her character has had to grow in response to that. We ALREADY knew Ramsay was a monster. Having him rape her adds no new dimension to Sansa’s story, and tells us nothing new about Ramsay. What it does it act as a catalyst for Theon to finally break out of Ramsay’s hold. Add to that the fact that for a show I still think has some amazingly complex and well written women on it, they have never been good at addressing how those women process and deal with their rapes. I have no faith that they will do so with Sansa. I do think they’ll make it all about how this gets Theon to act.
Sadie – I’m on Abott’s train (down-thread) where I am reserving judgement until I see where the writers take Sansa’s story. I wasn’t thrilled about what happened and to your point I was not surprised in the least that it did happen because we know Ramsay’s character (and his marriage storyline from the book).
But I don’t necessarily agree that this adds no new dimension to Sansa’s story. Yes she had suffered physical and psychological abuse, but being raped is a whole different torture. Plus in the past she always had a man help her/save her – take pitty on her. But the one man who could in this situation did not. Perhaps this will be a catalyst for her to really evolve and take her life into her own hands. That said, I don’t like the idea that rape is the plot point potentially being used to evolve her character.
As far as Theon goes I would definitely be disappointed if, as you have pointed out, Sansa’s rape is meant only for his character development/redemption. Yes, partly because that would be mysoginist story-telling. But also because personally (I wrote this late on yesterday’s GOT thread) I don’t want to see Theon redeemed. I think his character was a sh*t after Ned Stark’s death, a character with very little honor and I’m not invested in the idea that he’s a good guy that had bad things happen to him. And I certainly don’t want him to be a white knight for Sansa. I want her to save herself. Anyway, that’s just my two cents. I am sure others feel differently.
Yes to everything you said Sadie.
I’m not a book purist and don’t mind plot changes, that’s not the issue. But as GNAT said above, there was already so much sexual violence in the book I don’t know why the writers feel the need to add more – I’m starting to think that they get off on it.
Even as a completely stand alone project, the writers use rape waaaay to much and completely uncritically. In the first season we have Dany raped by Drogo, fuelling a short storyline about how Dany seeks help from her maid to seduce Drogo so that he will stop raping her. Once she is adequately “trained”, they fall in love. Gross. Then we have Cersei and Jaime, which the writers wouldn’t even acknowledge was a depiction of rape! Not to mention all of the countless other scenes of prostitutes being abused (eg in Joffrey’s bed chamber) and the general overuse of female nudity in the show. For the most part I still very much enjoy watching the show, but I hate scenes like these where I feel I’m being tricked into watching torture p*rn.
ETA: Just saw your comment, mia girl. I hope so, but I’m inclined to agree with Sadie. Considering they have replaced Jayne Poole (“fake Arya”) with Sansa, it’s not looking too good as that character was (abominably) used in the books to fuel Theon’s reawakening identity.
@Mia – I think it’s fair enough to reserve judgement on where the story will go, but IMO from the way rape has been handled on the show in the past, without any consideration for what these women go through in the aftermath, I don’t have high hopes. And I totally agree with you about Theon. I don’t give flying fig about him having a redemption arc.
@Gretchen – Yes, to everything you’ve said. I still shudder when I remember that they denied that Cersei/Jamie scene was rape.
Sadie – Can’t blame you for being weary. Totally get it.
Gretchen – I have not read the books. I was aware of giving Jayne Poole’s general book storyline of marriage to Ramsay to Sansa in the TV show, but I did not know that Jayne Poole’s sexual and physical abuse was used to fuel Theon’s reawakening in the book. That’s on Martin then.
Gretchen – completely agree. I’m not a book purist on any level but this isn’t about that, it’s about the fact that they took three of the books strongest female characters: Cersei, Daenarys and Sansa and fabricated a rape plot line for each one because what, the only way to make a woman become powerful is to show her completely powerless? That’s seriously the only narrative trick you can think of to accomplish character development for women? It’s not only torture p0rn-esque (which as we know a lot of GOT is) but it’s done in such a specific lazy cliché misogynistic-writing-101 way that it’s just dull and repetitive as well as horrible.
I agree, and I’m a die-hard lover of the books. I never was one of those who would fly into a tizzy if something was changed from the books to the show. Though I wish the writers could have altered Sansa’s storyline in a less awful way (I am getting a bit weary of sexual abuse – violence as a plot device) I’m also quite eager to see what happens, because for a change I have no clue.
I can only assume / hope that she’ll get her revenge, maybe with Theon’s help. Muahaha. 😉
I’m with you Talie, LadyMTL the books and the show are both well done and entertaining in their own right, I don’t get too up in arms about changes cause there are things that i can’t imagine how they could translate or bring to fruition (for example how Boring Jon’s storyline might come off in the show but really his is more of an internal monologue thing)
I like the book-to-TV changes (except for Dorne and the Sand Snakes – that whole plot line has come off as Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles crossed with Scooby Doo – Jaime and Bronn coming in the gate at the end of the train and then sneaking away on their horses, bah!). Keeps it interesting. Just when I think I’m so smart and have it all figured out, they prove again that I know nothing.
As a reader the challenge for me is that the series is not complete so I don’t know what “really” happens in the books. As a result, changes to the TV show are frustrating because I don’t know if they are being made to consolidate content or telling us the outcome for the character.
For example, Rob’s wife was not at the red wedding and, therefore, not killed. The book has a few hints about her fate so what’s the point if her character is not coming back?
Yes, she was there and was killed while Rob was forced to watch.
Jane… Megan is talking about George RR Martin’s A Song Of Ice And Fire book series.. I’m not sure what book you’re talking about, but Jeyne Westerling married Robb and she was definately NOT killed at the red wedding, like Talisa or whatever the Hell her show counterpart is named. Jeyne was not even there and is still alive in the books.
I tried with Got but I can’t. I seriously don’t get the appeal. The stories and good characters get drowned out by the gratuitous violence and sexual assaults. Enough already.
They are also putting female nudity in every episode, there’s so much focuse on women’s breasts, asses and in one of the previous episodes the camera zoomed in on some prostitutes vagina that I thought GOT has finally become porn.
ITA. I don’t mind if the novels and the show diverge at certain points – they have to, as the mediums are so different. The problem is the show chooses to emphasize, or just outright make time for gratuitous sex and violence which never even occurred in the novels. Example: Season One, Little Finger is in one of his whorehouses, and he’s “instructing” 2 of the women how to get each other off in such a way that it will excite their male clients. That scene was unnecessarily graphic, and never appeared in the books. It’s a whorehouse, we get it, no need to demonstrate what you do in there. Why skip over plots and characters which, at least to my mind, add so much to the development of the story, claiming there just isn’t time to fit it all in,, yet they make the time to include scenes of extended sexual activity and graphic violence, some of which is only briefly mentioned, or doesn’t appear at all in the books. GRRM and the GoT producers sound remarkably disingenuous when they try to defend themselves. Remember, GRRM is getting paid a boatload for this – of course he’s going to defend the producers.
@epiphany: yeah things like that. You said it better than I did. And maybe knowing that GRRM is so involved in the production makes it worse. He always creeped me out for some reason and maybe that’s why. It’s also quite lame that he uses rape as a way to further his female characters repeatedly. That’s crap writing imo. It comes off to me like they all have a rape fetish.
It also comes across to me as lazy writing. The show already has a massive following and yet they still seem to feel that they won’t be able to hold viewers’ attention if they don’t include gratuitous female nudity. I mean, seriously, a scene is not going to be made more compelling if you throw a topless woman into it, if you want to retain viewers’ interest, write better!
Hi Epiphany, I just wanted to point out a few things…
1. Dany and her handmaiden at a few points engage in sexual experience similar to the brothel scene as far as the acts themselves. Except it is real pleasure. I don’t want to get too explicit here. The show skipped this and could have taken advantage of a “hot” scene with Khaleesi, way hotter than those two wh0res faking it.
2. The show has done a superb job capturing the same FEELINGS (the key for me) as in the books while telling the story slightly differently. GRRM has a fabulous way of capturing the small little nuances of life that are just so hard to describe. My best example of this? When Cersei states that no man has ever made her feel as good as when she was nursing Joffrey at her breast. How does a dude even put that together in his head? To me, that is what the author does in a nutshell.
GRRM elicits a wide range of emotions from the reader and I believe the show does the same. You may not like the feelings you feel but they are there and I believe that’s the point.
The spirit of the show is the same as the books. Not more or less perverse or violent, sexual, dangerous, and real in a world with magic and without modern technology.
Fyi. There aren’t sexual assaults or gratuitous violence in every episode.
Phew.. and I thought I was the only one. It may sound dumb, but this is a relief to me. I felt totally alone. I’m literally the only one in my circle of friends who hasn’t become a super big fan of GoT. I did try, watched the first three or four episodes, but it was way too much for me. While I don’t necessarily need an overuse of nudity when the same story can be told with people wearing clothes, I usually have no problem with the display of sexuality if it helps the plot. I was just grossed out by the sexual violence. My first questions, “Why so graphic? Couldn’t the story be told without the boobs?” were answered with, “But the show is seriously good” (which I believe), and when I asked my friends about all the violence against women, I always got the answer, “But everything turns around later – the women get to be super powerful, they end up being the ones pulling the strings… later.” I was so surprised by the common acceptance of what happened in the first few episodes I had watched that all I ended up saying was, “Ok, that’s nice, I guess, but sorry, I believe I won’t make it that far in this show.” I’m not judging anyone who likes it. I think it’s cool that so many people get to see a show they like – and I really wish I could be one of them, because it’s filmed and produced beautifully. From what I’ve heard, the storylines must be fantastic; and I also like the fantasy aspect. I was just very confused and sad because I was left with the feeling of being overly sensitive.
Last month a friend of mine suggested to give it another chance. I trust her judgment when it comes to oversexualization and the portrayal of women in media. She’s a feminist who just finished her master’s thesis about the female roles in p0rn. I decided to give the show another try, but maybe I’ll just end up being part of the 0.1% who don’t get the appeal.
Edited: I first wrote “I don’t have a problem with nudity”, and changed this statement to me not needing an overuse of nudity (see above).
Exactly. I got through probably first 5 chapters of the first book and threw it into the trash. I didn’t need all this junk I my brain. I am just reading here because I still don’t get what people find appealing in GoT and I am curious about it.
I’m trying to withhold judgment until we see what comes next for Sansa.
This is my view as well — the only thing that would piss me off is if another man comes along and saves her. I want her to find a way to save herself, and possibly Theon.
I think the more rational complaints I have seen are worried that her rape will be some sort of awakening for Theon, therefore making her rape about him rather than Sansa.
My hope for it is that if they go down that route it’s more of a Sansa uses Theon’s obvious upset as a way for them to align and take the Ramsey’s down rather than it being Theon who snaps out of it and saves her.
Well hopefully she’ll get to the top of the broken tower, light a candle, and Brienne will show up and fight some assholes!
@Lauren, If I were Sansa I would’ve been lighting up a damn flamethrower even before the old lady finished telling me the rescue instructions.
I’m with you, Abbott. Wait and see. Hopefully Sansa Fierce will dish out what those awful sickos have coming to them.
I do feel bad for book readers who started with the series in 1996. It would be hard to see these things happen to characters you’ve invested almost 20 years in. But there are no guarantees about what will happen in the next book or the next show. GRRM likes to keep you guessing – who is bad/good? Who will live? The best we can hope for in terms of predicting what will happen next is consistency with character. What happened Sunday is COMPLETELY consistent with Ramsay’s character and inevitable from the second Sansa agreed to marry him. I’m surprised he didn’t rape her before they married. Such restraint. Plus, given Ramsay’s pre-bedding discussion with Sansa about her marriage to Tyrion (largely thought of in Westeros as a monster), Ramsay needed a witness so there would be no question the marriage was official and I bet he didn’t believe that she was a virgin.
Did you see the promo for the next ep, Abot?
Hey, @mimif! Missed you yesterday. In the promo did it look like Ramsay was about to journey off somewhere or was I wishful thinking?
mimif – I am the worst at interpreting those damn promos. Please explain to me what you saw in the promo.
Yes! Quick clip of Sansa telling Theon she still has friends in the North.
Do you think they’ll actually get to the battle (Stannis/Boltons) or they’re going to spend an episode talking about going to battle?
PS Theon and Tyrion’s hair game this season is pure glamour. Way better than Jon Snow’s, IMO. *fashions Needle out of paper clips*
@Size, I didn’t watch it til late yesterday afternoon! Looked to me like Ramsey was getting ready for battle.
@mia, @Abot, yes that little clip of Sansa whispering to Theon. I avoided the convo yesterday, but re: Theon, it will be interesting if I have to eat my words and see if that little man can make something of himself. I don’t see how he can, or how the writers could, as it just wouldn’t keep with the storyline, but I’ll give Abot a shot. I think with 4 eps left, the 10th will be Hardhome & Stannis/Boltons cliffhangers, so that means 3 eps to talk about going to battle.
ALSO: Am I the only person here who knows what Baelish is up to??
mimif, WHAT IS BAELISH UP TO? Think he’s going to side with Stannis or the Tyrells? Let Stannis and the Boltons wear each other down and then swoop in with his Eyrie army to secure the North for himself?
I wish I could post a vid clip here real quick. Listen. This is what is up. ***POSSIBLE SPOILERS***
Petyr specifically told Roose that the last time the Eyrie sided with the north, they brought down one of the most powerful din-asties in existence. SO, I *think* he’s hoping that Stannis will crush the Boltons (they’re storyline needs to go, and I don’t think Stannis is going anywhere what with R’hllor and all), then side with Stannis (the one true king). By this time, he will also have been ordained the Warden of the North by Insano Cersei, and who just happens to be the last Stark (cough Tully) in Winterfell? Sansa! So he gets the Eyrie, the North, Sansa AND Stannis, and then they all converge to take down the last of the Lannisters and gain control of Westeros. Not sure how the Tyrells will fit in with this, I’ll have to think about that. And I’m really hoping Sansa is more than a f-cking pawn and that’s all I have to say about that.
I mean, it’s brilliant. He’s brilliant. He’s my all time top fave character right now and yes I would.
The Lannisters are dunzo (despite Tommen being king). Think Stannis can take the Tyrells?
I don’t think the Tyrells would fight Stannis, his army would be too great. And you know, winter is coming and stuff. I think what would probably have to happen is that Mom of the Year dies, and Stannis takes Margaery as his Queen (or she takes him as his King, whatever) to form an alliance. That’s if she makes it out of the Keep (which she will). ALSO, you know how Cersei’s whole deal with Marg is she thinks she’s the “younger more beautiful queen” from the prophecy? And then everyone else thinks it’s a red herring, because DANY? Well paolanqar was surmising…what about Sansa? I mean, how great would it be if Sansa usurped her? But I don’t think GRRM would do that, it’s too good, too satisfying. Anyway, fun thoughts.
What do YOU think?
The promo makes it seem like Sansa is looking up at something — I’m guessing it’s someone’s flayed body. Myranda, most likely. No way Ramsay wants her around anymore now that he has completed his freaky trinity with Sansa and Theon.
Your plan makes much more sense. When do we get to flay the Freys?
@Talie, I went back to look at the promo and you’re right. Sansa is looking up at something while crying as Ramsay kisses her on the cheek. Maybe Myranda…. or maybe the old lady who keeps telling her The North Remembers? The scene right after is Sansa telling Theon she still has friends in the North. Maybe Theon rats her out to Ramsey and Ramsey flays the woman before he heads to battle, reminding Sansa to ‘behave’ while he is gone?
Isn’t Sansa looking at the tower Bran fell from? Wasn’t there that she was supposed to light a candle if she needed Brienne’s help?
I’m glad someone is finally talking about Littlefinger which is so much more interesting than this stupid rape debate.
I agree with @mimif but see littlefinger’s plan slightly differently. I think his end game is he and his bride Sansa sitting on the throne (Sansa fulfills Cersei prophesy).
He already schemed his way to a hold on the Vale. He was willing to risk harm to Sansa to secure her hold on Winterfell (knowing she may be harmed but ultimately too important to the Bolton’s fragile hold on Winterfell to be killed, plus he’s hedging his bets that Stannis will take care of the Boltons so Sansa won’t endure for long). He’s got into the Boltons good graces by providing Sansa and (seemingly) securing their hold on Winterfell. He’ll allow the Boltons & Stannis to have their war and weaken each other (his and my bet is on Stannis and the North will more likely rally around him), then his army from the Vale will either strike Stannis army OR support his claim (again, seemingly) to get the support to take down the Lannisters (who will be marching on Winterfell at Littlefinger’s suggestion!).
He set this up with Cersei so she would send Lannisters troops to take Winterfell under the guise that his army from the Vale will help in taking down Stannis or Bolton (depending on who is left standing). He could continue with this plan and Cersei will make him warden of the north, or he could turn on her and use his troops plus an alliance with the winner of Stannis vs Bolton to finally take down the Lannister troops. His assistance in getting the Lannister troops in this trap would secure his chances of gaining warden of the north from
Bolton or Stannis (whoever wins). Basically, he’s setting this up so whatever happens in battle results in his status upgrade as Warden of the North.
He takes Sansa (Winterfell) as his wife (Rsay will die) and they have a stronghold on the North.
The next stages to sit on the throne I’m not entirely sure of but, let’s remember that Littlefinger and Lady Olenna conspired to kill Joffrey so he has alliances with their house as well (and they will for sure take action against the Lannisters and support Littlefinger’s machinations if it means destroying Lannisters).
I think he is loyal to Sansa and sees her as his future queen but is also willing to risk harm to her to get what he wants.
My guess? Stannis wins, Boltons are done, Sansa is widowed and ruler of Winterfell, Littlefinger leads Lannister troops to their demise while the faith militant take care of Cersei and Tommen, Littlefinger takes control of the North, the Tyrells lose their status on the reveal that Tommen is not true heir, Stannis is rightful heir, Littlefinger brokers deal with Tyrells that would usurp Stannis and place him & Margery on throne (except he takes Sansa instead).
Oh and Dany goes crazy and revealed to be the villain and dies.
But Littlefinger et al did not plan for the triumph of Azor Ahai 😉
I’m sure I have much of it wrong but Littlefinger is SO much more interesting to discuss no?
Yassss Davy! Where have you been all my life?? Finally, someone is on the same Dany is Villian train as me. 😀
I don’t think Baelish wants to be King tho, he wants to puppeteer the King. You see it over and over again; he (like Varys) wants to control the realm from behind the curtain (much safer there btw).
I do agree with you about Sansa: Even tho he gambles very very heavily with her life and well being, I think ultimately it’s his love/creepy affection/obsession with Catelyn Tully that motivates almost everything he does.
Wanted to add your end game synopsis is brilliant too, Davy. Like the Sansa switch up but I dunno, seems to easy to me (as I mentioned up thread). PAOLANQAR REVEAL YOURSELF!
@Davy: I agree with the first part of your synopsis: It’s a calculated gamble to send Sansa to Winterfell and Ramsay. But I disagree with the latter half, because there’s no way that Littlefinger wants to be either Warden of the North nor does he want to be King. He’s smart enough to know that he’s in the sweet spot right now: he’s got the money and the power, but not the pressure of being King. And Littlefinger isn’t a commander, he won’t be leading any army.
I’m not sure what Littlefinger’s endgame is, but I especially wonder what it is with Sansa because marriage seems like something he’d consider too provincial.
@mimif: One huge issue: Stannis doesn’t have the army the Tyrells have. He has the charisma of a piece of beef jerky and has had a very hard time bringing folks to his cause. The Tyrells on the other hand are incredibly powerful.
Newsflash Bridget: he’s got R’hllor. Juuuust kidding. I said upthread that I thought the Tyrells and Stannis would join up. Enemy of your enemy and all that. Get rid of Tommen and wed Marg to Stannis, problem solved, cuz we all know Stannis’ wife is going down. I think.
God are we gonna still be talking about this 3 years from now? I’ll be an old woman.
I actually think that if Tommen is killed the Tyrells are going to pack up and go home. And Stannis has made it very hard to ally with him since you’d also be stuck with the red woman.
Yeah, I thought the same thing about the Tyrells packing up. I would also agree with you about Stannis and the baggage of the Red Bitch, but um, they wed Margaery to Joffrey so….
Anyway, by the time all that comes to pass, Westeros will be in flames anyway. 😉
I’m having a difficult time with the showrunners’ choices, but they can hopefully save this if they handle Sansa’s arc correctly.
Just a little aside, I love how little Ramsey looks in the promo for ep 7, when he’s kissing Sansa goodbye. Iwan is only an inch shorter than Sophie, but he has to visibly reach up to her cheek. Conversely, the episode previous when itty bitty Jon Snow was face to face with Gigantor Tormund. Just a thought, perhaps some foreshadowing there. And I’m not a geek. At all.
BUT WAIT! Next week is The Gift…. ******* ________
Wee Jon Snow. Maybe they gave him wedges like Tom Hardy?
mia girl and I thought maybe roller skates.
Is that how they get along the miles of the Great Wall? Roller skates?
Game of Thrones Boogie!
I don’t really like clicking on random links because I’m always worried it’s going to be something disgusting. Like someone pooping.
Yes Bridget… Didn’t you know?!
All the men of the Night’s Watch are wearing roller-boogie disco-shorts under those cloaks.
mimif and I have seen the future – the season finale entitled, “Let’s Go (Cause Winter is a ‘Comin)” will be a musical, roller-skating extravaganza!
PS – I’ve heard that Littlefinger totally kills it on speed skates.
Speedskating? You know nothing. That man has lyrical routine written all over him.
Little Finger seems more like a ribbon gymnast, IMO. Mesmerizing in a what is really happening here and is this even legit kind of way. Melisandre would be the one campaigning for to pole dancing to be an Olympic sport. Margaery is obviously on vault and okay no more Nyquil for me, I forgot we were talking about Winter Olympics.
@Bridget, you’re so practical, have I mentioned that before? Better not click on any Chris Pratt posts…
Bridget and mimif – I hadn’t finished. Little Finger kills it as speed-skating, lyrical ribbon-twirling Warden of the North to the tune of Abba’s “The Winner Takes it All”
P.S. Nyquil – The Nectar of the Old Gods and the New
😂😂 Well done, mia girl. +1 cup of mead for you
I don’t read the Chris Pratt posts, but that’s just because I find him kind of boring.
@mia girl: well that just ruins it. Maybe if the song was “Take a chance on me”…
I haven’t watched any of this season, and I’ve been trying my best not to be ‘spoiled’ but the headlines are pretty much everywhere. My only question is, isn’t Sansa already married to Tyrion. How is she married to Ramsey?
that marriage wasn’t valid because it wasn’t consummated. Same as Margaery’s previous two marriages.
Since Sansa and Tyrion did not consumate the marriage, it can be annulled. It still is true for marriages nowadays, I think.
It’s only matter of time before they write a scene where Arya is assulted. The showrunners and GRRM are obsessed with rape of the female characters. Last season they had rape as a background decoration while other characters where conversing. Don’t tell me that was necessary.
It’s misogynistic to the core.
I respect your opinion, and rape is terrible. But it is a medieval magicalworld at war. There is going to be horrible violence and rape. Just turn your head to waqrtorn places nowadays.
In the novels, men and children are tortured and killed right and left. And still women are not usually portrayed as weak.most female characters have had an edge, they are magical or cunning or become leaders, with the exception I Sansa, but that has to change.
I do not see this show as misogynistic because of that. There is gratuitous nudity and too much sex, but when We got HBO we knew that.
Right now in Northern Nigeria hundreds of women, children, toddlers and BABIES were freed from that psycho Islamist group. Guess why babies and toddlers were captured by that group? To groom them as future sex and work slaves. Guess what happened to women in parts of the work Angie Jolie visits? Rape is used on them as a war tactic and the young boys are drugged, brainwashed into being killers. This is what is going on everyday in our world at times of war. Westeros is a war torn universe where the same thing is happening. Furthermore it’s also medieval times which makes the fate of women lives even worse. But in the storylines are also strong girls and women: Arya, the Red Witch, the Sandsnakes, Briand, Theon’s sister, Margery,
But the writers aren’t showing rape to demonstrate the horrors of war, they’re doing it to titillate. The women in the background rape scenes aren’t given names or stories, they’re used as scenery. None of the women in the story so far (we’ll see how they deal with Sansa) who have been raped have been depicted dealing with the aftermath of their trauma, no PTSD, no real sense of what they had to deal with psychologically to survive. It’s rape for the male gaze, which is incredibly callous and insensitive.
Same as the books. Rape of women, turture and butchering of men, everyone is beyond scare or PTSD. They just put on foot forward and carry on. A lot of those women currently being used as sex slaves or raped during wars don’t really have time to dwell on their horrible pain. They are too busy surviving. War is hell, GRRM’s purpose in writing GOT. Women suffer the most at times of war or power struggles when men are in charge and women sold from their father to their husbands.
GOT was never meant for mainstream audiences it just got popular and brought mainstream audience along and now they are horrified when the curtain is lifted A BIT. If the show runners actually put on film what’s in the book about Ramsey Bolton, the show would be cancelled by now.
I’m not ignorant of this issue and I’m not buying the comparison (justification?) between what is shown on GOT and real issues of rape in conflict. Many women can’t just carry on, suicide rates of rape survivors particularly during times of conflict skyrocket and you never see anything like that trauma dealt with in the show.
They’re not not covering the aftermath because women just “carry on”, they’re not covering it because they don’t give a crap. They’re in it for ratings, controversy and titillation, not because they’re making some grand statement of women’s reality in war. So often women survivors are ignored or silenced, GOT is not in any way changing this tradition. seesittells it covers this much better than I do in her comment downthread.
ETA: I’m only referring to the show here, not the books.
The way he writes about rape in the books is deplorable. Chapters and chapters devoted to war, a few sentences to a rape that totally changes the character. It’s mind boggling and disgusting.
He may want to avoid the criticism and analysis he’d get if he tried to write from the perspective of the victim. He might feel he is on more stable ground writing the war scenes. Let’s not pretend certain factions wouldn’t be kind to him if he got anything wrong. He could write 99% well but if he missteps 1% on writing about a rape, the SJWs would hang him over it.
if he feels like he’s not able to write rape from a victim’s perspective, then he shouldn’t write it at all. because no other perspective matters. jfc.
throwing in a rape scene just to shock the audience is no way to to bring it into the narrative. it’s not even used to develop the rape survivor’s character (a really cheap way to do that anyway. you don’t have to sexually violate a woman to make her strong) . it’s used to shock the viewers/readers or further a male’s story arc (in this instance Theon’s redemption arc…).
and it’s not “if” he missteps. he ALREADY IS misstepping. big time.
I completely agree with you maev.
I guess I feel that it would be pretty weird to write about war and such, all the other stuff, and purposefully leave rape out. It wouldn’t be accurate to the environment and treatment of women. We know that this is something that was prolific then….heck, it’s prolific now. As someone else pointed out elsewhere here, rape/war crimes are still very much occurring today.
what rape scenes are you refering to?
My husband was the one who was pushed too far. We ourselves have all girls and he said he couldn’t stomach it anymore because sansa to him was still a child because of where the show started. I agree, there is plenty of violence, sex, gore and pain already in there. No need to add more. My household has probably tapped out after that episode. Not that it’s going to hurt them, but if we don’t like it, we should stop watching, not watch and then bitch every week.
I am pretty sure the asoiaf is anti war in it’s themes. Most people probably skip over Feast for Crows and even A Dance with Dragons but thats essentially what the message is. And it shows you what the far reaching ramifications of war are. He most certainly doesn’t glamorize it,but he handles all things,rape included very well! He has also stated that he would never have a chapter with a character getting raped.
I finally stopped reading the books because I couldn’t take all the horrible things happening to the characters. Something good will almost happen (stark children finding each other) but nope, not really, just close. I couldn’t take it.
Disgusted by this series (book and show) from the beginning. Pretty convinced he loves rape, and probably believes in ‘justified’ rape in real life. He also loves media fallout.
Maybe I had such a strong reaction to this scene because I saw Mad Max the same day as this episode.Mad Max was about women being held by men as sex slaves, and yet the movie didn’t need to show women being raped or tormented. We know that happened.
The same could’ve been done with Sansa and Ramsay. The audience is smart enough to know how Ramsay would act on his wedding night. Letting us see Sansa scared and hearing her screams was totally unnecessary.
I also keep thinking of that scene in in Season 4 which the women of the Craster’s house were being raped by a gang of outlaws while Karl delivered his monologue. We didn’t need that scene. It meant nothing to the plot. It was so pointless. But for some reason, the writers felt we need to see a group of women being raped. Because…?
Ramsay is a bigger monster than Joffrey, it would never have been pleasant to watch no matter what they made of it. Anything else would have been out of character.
So considering what I’ve read about the marriage to Ramsay chapters and the complete sodomization of Jeyne Pool, I’m just glad they wrote her out of the tv-story so that wouldn’t happen on-screen.
You can make arguments for “adaptation” from page to screen, you can make an argument for the fact that GOT is set in a overwhelmingly violent medievalist fantasy world and was never going to be Anne of Green Gables.
What you can’t make a credible argument for is that the writers/adapters, producers, etc., don’t fully understand that their upping of the sexual violence ante in this show 1) courts the controversy that keeps the buzz going for the series, and 2) titillates millions of young men, some of whom may admit it and some who may not, who find the endless procession of lovely women being forced to submit sexually entrancing.
Every time the writers/adapters/producers/directors are faced with a “choice”, they opt for the same choice: another graphic episode of the rape of beautiful women and girls.
You simply can’t make a credible argument that this is about “quality television” or “difficult choices”. The choice doesn’t seem to be difficult at all for these producers: rape sells, let’s do it and often, and let’s show it as graphically as possible. They have no “artistic” credibility here.
Yes, this. This exactly. Thank you fellow posters for being much more eloquent than I today. It’s into fetish territory and I can’t with it anymore.
+a million
To say that this show/book is “empowering” women is ridicolous. The whole setting is sadistic and misogonystic. I read the first 4 books (bought the box, thought story is closed after book 4). GRRM is a disturbed person and all the people saying “it is like the middle ages with a little bit of magic” are delusional.
Of course war crimes/rapes are real. But the whole GOT world has no balance with at least slightly less corrupt people.
@seesittellsit you’ve nailed it.
“titillates millions of young men, some of whom may admit it and some who may not, who find the endless procession of lovely women being forced to submit sexually entrancing.”
I take offence to this statement.
Do you really think the majority of men get titillated by watching young women getting raped and humiliated onscreen? Most of the guys I know don’t like watching rape scenes, no matter how hot the actress is. It would be foolish of me to suggest that there aren’t men turned on by this or that misogyny isn’t rampant in many forms, but please don’t tar the majority of men with the same brush.
I watched the episode with a group of guys and one girl and we were all horrified by the rape. I’ve found the show’s depiction of rape, particularly in Season 4, very problematic (the poorly handled Jaime/Cersei sept scene).
That said, Ramsay is a violent, misogynist sadist. He wasn’t going to be gentle with Sansa on her wedding night. The scene clearly wasn’t written or portrayed as a titillating scene. It was presented as horrifying. It drew parallels with the real world in which women were treated like property for centuries.
Now people can argue that Game of Thrones is a fantasy show with dragons, White Walkers and magic; and that real world issues don’t need to be present. I believe this to be untrue. The supernatural elements add layers of excitement to the plot but I think introducing real (and often very uncomfortable) themes to a piece of fiction opens up discussion and allows you to fully interact with a piece of fiction, as opposed to just mindlessly watching something inoffensive.
The show has always been brutal. Tons of horrifying things have happened throughout the series beginning with the first episode. Murder and torture are rampant. I believe GRRM (and the showrunners) are trying to hold a mirror up to society and show how f-ed up our own society is, particularly in war time.
Why is there no outrage over Theon’s storyline? The general consensus seems to be “yawn – not Theon again” and “dick in a box” jokes. What Theon has gone through in the last two and a half seasons of the show has been just as horrifying and traumatic as what Sansa went through in this episode. I’m not trying to be like Kit Harrington here. I do recognise that women are and have been culturally and historically as a whole treated worse than men. But that shouldn’t take away that both male and female characters have a generally awful time in Game of Thrones, reflecting the real life traumas of men and women, with women as a whole receiving a worse deal. I know rape is still horrifyingly commonplace, even in the modern developed world.
I do think an argument can be made for sensitivity and subtlety regarding this issues. The show has been guilty many times of too obvious writing and on-the-nose treatment of themes. It can certainly be argued that GRRM goes overboard in his portrayal of gritty realism in his books.
The implication from your post, however, seems to be that the showrunners and the author have gleefully rubbed their hands together and inserted rape into the plot for ratings or sales. If anything, the rape scenes really hurts the show and affects it overall, as it causes huge outrage. I believe that there might be a lack of sensitivity but the writers only did what they felt best for exploring certain themes or characters. I also don’t like the implication that the a large proportion of the young male audience are subconsciously whooping and cheering when they see a young, attractive woman humiliated, degraded and forced into submission on TV.
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. Please note that I said “millions of young men” not “all” young men. But I’m sorry to say that the status of sexual violence toward women and girls on our campuses alone, never mind in many other countries, gives the lie to your “the outrage hurts the show” line. It doesn’t and hasn’t hurt the show: as many savvy PR people know, you can’t buy the level of publicity that outrage and controversy get you.
Thank you!
I couldn’t agree with your more! I’m so sick of people saying that rape is a part of the time and it’s in the books. Who cares!?!?! That’s soooo not the point. The problem here is that every time there was a choice to rape or not to rape, they chose to rape. and almost this is the 3rd major female character to be raped.
Sean has a point. A valid one. I -see- you didn’t -see- it. Or just brushed it off, because it doesn’t fit with yours. But, as you said, we’re all entitled to our opinions.
+1 Sean. Wish I could have replied to you directly.
This is pretty much exactly how I feel. This is laziness on the part of the showrunners – Sansa’s storyline on the show is already very divergent (to use GRRM’s word here) from the book plot. There is no reason the show couldn’t have taken her arc in a very different direction and had her kill Ramsay. She was there to ‘avenge’ her family, right? So would it have been less plausible for her to say, pull a dagger from her dress and stab that sick bastard before he got a hand on her? But it’s easier to let Ramsay be Ramsay and Sansa be victimized AGAIN and let that marriage-night rape happen. Lazy, lazy, lazy.
“HBO is more than forty hours into the impossible and demanding task of adapting my lengthy (extremely) and complex (exceedingly) novels, with their layers of plots and subplots, their twists and contradictions and unreliable narrators, viewpoint shifts and ambiguities”
Umm….I don’t see these books as being complex at all. Lengthy? Yes (even though the books don’t need to be). Complex? No. Subplots that don’t need to exist? Yes. But again, complex? Most definitely not.
They’re not hard to read (got nothing on Finnegan’s Wake which I swear was an epic literary troll), but I think “complex” is fine in this context. It’s got several definitions, including both:
1) Consisting of many different and connected parts
2) Not easy to analyse or understand.
You seem to be using definition 2. I think GRRM meant definition 1. And I think just about everyone would agree that the series is complex by the first definition. There are over 1,000 named characters, multiple books, shifting viewpoints. Those are all different types of narrative complexity.
I think because I’m using Tolkien as a reference point where he, too, created a far more complex world than GRRM. I do think it is super easy to understand and analyze though but yes, going by definition #1, it is complex.
I’m not sure why the scene bothered people (beyond it obviously being upsetting to watch). Sansa married a horrible man in a world where marriage is void if not consummated. Of course this was how it was going to play out. In the GoT world it wouldn’t be considered rape at all. Apart from the inclusion of Theon, it’s just an ordinary wedding night for most women in this world. Which is awful, but that’s the show. I don’t see people freaking out every time someone’s murdered or tortured horribly, and that’s just as terrible. Sure, you could not actually show the rape, but you could also not show the violence, and just have a show where a bunch of people talk about all the awful things that happened off-screen.
Personally I don’t think we should shy away from portrayals of rape in entertainment. It’s unfortunately part of life for a shocking number of people, I don’t think it does any good to brush it under the carpet or avoid it because it’s too upsetting. It should be upsetting and uncomfortable, and we shouldn’t have the option of burying our heads in the sand. Talking about something versus actually seeing it makes a world of difference.
I accept and understand that the books are also extremely violent. I accept that the show has been amping up the violence consistently since day one. I am not normally squeamish about it, and I accept accurate depictions in the course of storytelling/historical depictions.
Having said that, I am sick of the the show runners using rape and violence against women (not to mention the unending shots of female nudity when it is not needed or conducive to the plot in any way) solely for controversy and fap material for the neckbeards who get off on that kind of stuff. And sorrynotsorry, that is what this is.
And super not her for all the “She married a sadist, what did she expect???”. The victim blaming needs to stop ASAP.
If he can write a Live Journal post why can he finish these damn books? (Partly in jest some of my best friends are writers who do need a kick in the read to let a book go).
Right?!
I think Martin really missed the mark (big shock there). People aren’t complaining just because Benioff and Weiss strayed from the books, they’re complaining about their artistic choice to add in a sexual assault again. As much as we talk about the handful of strong women characters, this is a show that views sex and nudity almost entirely through women’s bodies. We are a modern viewing audience and we view this through a modern lens. Out of thousands of pages of books and hundreds of characters, this is specifically what B&W have chosen to include.
And GRRM, shouldn’t you be frantically writing?
Agree with everything you said.
Also, lets get real: GRRM doesn’t want to hear anyone’s thoughts on GoT in general.
Yep.
People often compare the abuse that Theon and Jeyne suffer, saying that the books aren’t sexist because bad things happen to men too, the difference is that when bad things happen to men they get their own stories, Theon gets to tell his own story, Jeyne doesn’t, she is simply raped and horrifically abused for Theon’s character development, “so that he can be redeemed.” People aren’t upset because they don’t think that rape should be shown they are upset because GRRM and the showrunners continually use rape as a plot device and then never explore the after effects that rape has on the victim. Also if the world is so realistic why are no men raped? Say at the Nights Watch, I mean that place is basically filled with criminals, its sort of just like a prison(don’t get me wrong I’m not saying I want to see men raped, but people keep going on about this show being soooo realistic, so they really should include some if its realism they’re going for).
It’s also upsetting, because the showrunners really really went out of their way to have Sansa get raped I mean she was in the Vale, which is a perfect place for her to I don’t know gain some agency, the Vale lords liked her, her cousin was the lord, but god forbid Sansa actually get some agency and power. So the showrunners came up with a contrived plot (How the hell did they get to Winterfell so fast? Would the Bolton’s really trust the sister of the dude they slaughtered? What about her marriage to Tyrion? Why the hell wouldn’t she just go to Stannis? Why would Littlefinger leave his most powerful pawn alone with the Boltons?) just so they could have a teenaged girl be raped.
In the books Sansa is a more important character than either Ramsay and Theon, but the showrunners sacrificed her character arc, so they could show Theon’s tears and Ramsay’s sadism (which we were already completely aware of) The rape was just a completely unnecessary shock tactic and attempt at controversy. I mean what is the point of it? So Sansa hates Ramsay? She already does, she didn’t need to be raped for that. Or is for Theon’s development? I really hope they don’t take this route, but I think they might.
One last thing the Showrunners said they loved this plot from the books and they had been planning on using Sansa since season two when the actress was 14/15. They cut out women from the books who had actual power like Arianne and Lady Stoneheart, but kept the plot of a teenage girl being horrifically abused because they loved it so much.
I’d be more interested in having a discussion about how this works into the plot if the show hadn’t already been so cavalier with women’s bodies. Because out of everything that the show has taken liberties with, ironically this is the one time I can see how the assault fits into the plot. But it’s frustrating, because Benioff and Weiss have handled the subject so poorly on the show.
To answer your plot questions: Sansa wouldn’t ever go to Stannis. She’s still too important a bargaining piece, and he’s pretty questionable. And as far as the larger plot, she HAS to get back to Winterfell, and I think that’s why they’ve combined her character with Jeyne – because a Stark always has to be in Winterfell (there’s a mystical connection). The only saving grace will be how they handle Sansa’s arc from here, because I’m going to be PISSED if they make this all about Theon’s redemption.
Yes, she is still an important a bargaining piece, which is why it makes no sense for Littlefinger to give her to Ramsay. I mean sure Stannis is questionable, but Roose literally murdered her brother sooo…. Also the Lannisters already made Roose warden of the North, he really doesn’t need Sansa, all that Sansa does for him is make him a traitor to the crown since she is wanted for regicide.
Littlefinger is supposed to be smart, he could have made an alliance with the Vale Lords, like having Sansa betrothed to Robin, which would have gotten her an army (since the Vale army is untouched this would be very useful, they also have a lot of food which the rest of the kingdom is sorely lacking). If she had an army she could negotiate with other Lords like Stannis, but no she is just Ramsay’s wife, and has absolutely no power. Her best chance is to overthrow the Boltons, but how is she going to do that with the old Lady and Theon? Or is it going to happen like in the books and she is going to run away with Theon and land in Stannis’ clutches anyway. As for the Stark in Winterfell thing, there hasn’t been a stark in Winterfell for two seasons now. I guess I just fail to see how this storyline was necessary at all.
There is no redemption in Game Of Thrones. None. Zero. Show me one case of it. Okay, maybe the Hound, but that’s arguable.
The Boltons are expendable, Theon is totally expendable but I’d bet dollars to donuts the former die and the latter is left to live, if only because he is such a miserable creature and death would be…well, it would be redeeming. Catch my drift?
They’re taking shortcuts in the series that are better explained in the books. The Boston’s hold on the North is tenuous – they are absolutely not a slam dunk, and the Lannister backing doesnt mean nearly what it did at the beginning of the season. The Boltons need Sansa to legitimize their hold and bolster their Northern support. And in the book (what I’m assuming they cut out for expediency sake) they actually were making Vale alliances but it was pretty clear that the endgame was to get Sansa into Winterfell. My point is, Roose and Ramsay may be in charge now, but I agree with @mimif that they’re more likely to end up dead by the end of this season. And don’t forget: in the books, Jeyne Poole ran, not Sansa Stark. That’s an important distinction.
And a Stark in Winterfell is key to the North holding and staving off Winter. It’s not just tradition, it’s a mystical connection.
You had me at Boston’s hold on the North is tenuous…
(Go Hawks!😀)
Beast Mode loves and appreciates you too.
But to elaborate, the Northern lords hate the Boltons. We’re talking generations of loyalty to the Starks – and Bolton is allied with the family that killed Ned Stark, and Ramsay is the individual that killed 2 of his children. AND Ramsay killed one of the other northern Ladies – Maege Mormont, which didn’t make the Northern lords particularly happy either. The Boltons are on precarious footing.
I’m just here so I don’t get fined.
It’s very probable that they do need Sansa in Winterfell for the endgame, but did they really need more rape for that? Couldn’t she have done something before the wedding? Yes I know that it was Jeyne Poole that ran, but so far they haven’t really changed the storyline that much. So I really wouldn’t be surprised if they just have Theon jump with Sansa like he did with Jeyne in the books (I hope I’m wrong). They way they set up Sansa last season, having her be more of a player and manipulating the Vale Lords I thought they were going to do something like have Sansa conspire with the Manderley’s (Frey pies anyone?) or make a plan with Brienne, there were just so many ways they could have gone about this that didn’t include gratuitous sexual violence. I don’t know I guess we’ll see how the story turns out.
There, I agree. Though interesting question: would it feel as gratuitous if they hadn’t already included several other sexual assaults, and the continual female nudity?
My point about Sansa not being Jeyne is this: she’s in a bad position now, but Sansa has power and smarts Jeyne never had. Where Jeyne Poole really had no choice but to run, Sansa Stark’s got supporters.
@Bridget, did I tell you I named my polydactyl Pixie Bob Richard Sherman? He’s got such an attitude, he’s a total thug. 😉
What are we going to do when we find out Ramsey is part Stark? I feel like they are reeeally playing up the Boltons because Ramsey is going down. Love to see Roose go too, but I don’t think he will. Yet.
Gah, Roose, I meant Roose is part Stark. But me being the Mensa that I am, that means Ramsey is part Stark. So just disregard everything I wrote up there, because I am a dumb nerd.
I agree that it wouldn’t feel as gratuitous if there wasn’t so much casual sexual violence and female nudity in the show. I honestly thought the showrunners would tone down the sexual violence after the backlash they got for the Jaime/Cersei rape scene, wishful thinking I guess.
This. Thank you.
I love the GOT books. Mostly because I’m a fast reader and they provided me with a solid 9 months of bed rest entertainment when I was sick and pregnant with my first child a couple of years ago. I read the last book while I was in the hospital after my totally medically necessary life saving c-section (my daughter would have died without medical intervention but recovery with a newborn is a bitch). So I was reading these books while I was up in the middle of the night breastfeeding and they provided some much needed entertainment. I love them! My problem with the GOT tv show is that I already knew what was going to happen and it was way more rapey than the books in a bad way. So I’m happy that the tv show is finally developing its own plot. It makes it much more entertaining not always knowing exactly what’s going to happen. I am still sad about all the rape. Enough is enough already! Overkill! No show needs THAT much rape! I feel like the stuff with Sansa would be fine if they hadn’t overdone the sexual violence last season. Last season was just punishing and totally not fun to watch.
How are you and the baby? I know how you have a special place in your heart for books that fill your needs at a crucial time. I was going through a really hard time emotionally, not physically like yours, when I read Lord of the Rings, and I’ll always feel those books “saved” me in a way. Hope you and your baby are going well now. I’m glad you found something to take your mind off your troubles at the time.
It’s funny, because I vividly remember reading A Clash Of Kings in the waiting room of the hospital while my then-boyfriend (now husband) was in surgery. I can still picture the book in my hands in that tiny little “private” room.
This season is rubbish.
Love GRRM and the books, generally enjoy the show too, as a separate experience. I kind of feel at this point, now that he’s explained his position so thoughtfully, it’s fine for him to state that he’ll have no further comment on the show. On that front, “Enough already.”
The entire Stark family’s terrible fate makes me feel so sad for their family. I hate watching their family’s down spiral. I wish Jon Snow would grow some huge balls and do a major revenge.
One thing that could possibly make Jon disobey his NW vows could be to rescue his sister (the only sibling he knows to be still alive). Wishful thinking perhaps.
All serious debate aside, I cannot help but think that “sometimes butterflies grow into dragons” is yet another classic GRRM carrot.
At least he didn’t say “sometimes ice roses grow into dragons”
A lot of commenters have said it very eloquently already, so I’m just going to add my voice to the chorus of DISAGREE with you, DISAGREE with GRRM. I’m a huge fan and reader of the book series since they first started coming out in the late 90s, and initially I was a big fan of the show. I NEVER expected a super close book to screen adaptation. No excuse can be made for their decisions to add even more horrible sexual violence against women than already exists in the books. It’s unnecessary and depressing and says a lot about our culture as a whole that we lap this up and anyone who takes offense is told to take a seat.
I’m sure I am in the minority but the back stories are superfluous nonsense. This story is about Dany (who I personally adore & love her dragons more) & Jon Snow. The two characters who actually look beyond themselves toward Peace.
Jon is either a Targaryen or he will end up with Dany. Ever since the first book that is the feeling that I have gotten.
Of course this is simply my opinion. One of the biggest disappointments for me was that Nymeria never reunited w/Arya (who I also adore)
This show pisses me off because I’m a big fan of the fantasy genre, but I’m not a big fan of gratuitous, graphic, brutal violence. I watched the first show with my husband and that guy pushed the little boy out the window and I said, “I’m done!” I’ve not watched it since and with all the controversy about rape and rapey incest, I have no regrets.
I just really hope they make something out of Sansa’s rape. It has serious potential if they don’t just leave it at gratuitous violence.
Not only does is further cement the North against the Bolton’s, it will (or should, anyway) turn Sansa against Littlefinger.
I detest this inescapable show. It’s everywhere on the TV, Internet, radio and daily life. I have no problem with occasional nudity on TV if it is necessary and represented equally. You know, like if the woman is naked, the man is naked as well – not necessarily showing his dong because THATS JUST GOING TOO FAR, THE MENS DONT WANT TO SEE IT. I hate how they constantly use women’s bodies as background accessories in order to cater to the male gaze.
Zooming in on their butts and breasts. It’s ridiculous. I understand that “in that era men had power blah blah blah”, I’ve heard it all. Mad men for example didn’t offend me, despite the sexism that portrayed that era. My issue is the camera constantly zooming in in their breasts and bottoms. There are ways they can show nudity without being sexist pigs (including mens bodies as well) and by not requiring practically every female character they can convince on that show to go topless.
Over it and I’m glad that this comment section is waking up to their crap. I just wish they would include more male bodies sexually or cut the double standard crap altogether and reduce the nudity to main characters and not background titty accessories. It also fetishes rape, mad max didn’t didn’t to show the wives getting raped to portray it in a meaningful way. Excuse me for my inarticulate rant – typing on my phone. I watch all kinds of shows that contain nudity but this show rubs me the wrong way.