It’s weird to think that in one single week, Meryl Streep really destroyed a ton of goodwill that she had banked up over the course of decades. I kind of think that someone involved in the PR for Suffragette should have put together some sample Q&A sheets and a handful of go-to quotes for the actors to use during their press. Maybe some PR person did do that and Meryl just decided to wing it. In any case, Meryl is still getting questions about her refusal to identify as a feminist (“I am a humanist, I am for a nice, easy balance”).
When asked about it during the Suffragette press conference during the London Film Festival, Meryl basically said “judge me by my feminist actions, not by my lack of self-identifying feminism” which is one of the strangest stances I’ve ever seen a woman take. Then Meryl sat down with the BBC for an interview and once again, she was asked point-blank if she considers herself a feminist. The first part of her answer is so INFURIATING that I literally shrieked at my computer. Then the dam breaks and Meryl seems to realize that she had talked herself into a corner with her nonsensical rhetoric and she tries to reel it in. You can see the video here. Here’s my transcript:
Whether she’s a feminist: “I’m a mother, you know? And I am the mother of a son and I’m married to a man. I love men. And it’s not what feminism has meant historically, it’s what it has come to mean to young women that makes them feel that it alienates them from the people they love in their lives. That disturbs me. I am – of course, of course – but the actions of my life prove who I am, what I am, what I do, where I put my money, where you put your mouth, so I live by these principles.”
[Transcribed from BBC video interview]
See what I mean? Infuriating. My take is when she says “I am – of course, of course” she’s saying “I am a feminist, of course.” But maybe that’s wishful thinking on my part. Here’s the thing: if you don’t want to call yourself a feminist, sure, God bless. If you don’t want to talk about it, that’s fine. But don’t promote a film about a critical moment in the history of women’s rights and act like you never thought you would encounter these questions. Don’t create these convoluted nonsense-arguments about why you’re reticent to identify with gender equality. “I’m married to a man. I love men.” Great. Now tell me what that has to do with feminism. And how does feminism – or simply the current reading of realpolitik feminism – “alienate” young women from the people they love? What the everloving f—k, Meryl?
Photos courtesy of WENN.
It’s sad to say, but she’s an F’ing idiot. “I’m married to a man. I love men.” Are you kidding me? And she’s out promoting this film with that nonsense. Never mind. Bring me back a pop star to ask the question of. LOL
Yuck.
I don’t think she’s an idiot. Words are powerful. Not long ago we used the word retarded. There is nothing inherently insensitive with the definition but people started using it in a very insensitive way and now most people wouldn’t touch that word with a ten-foot pole. People prefer disabled because it sounds more compassionate and hasn’t yet been compromised. If Meryl feels like, in her experience, she has met a lot of narrow-minded, judgmental women who identify as feminists and she feels that humanist more accurately describes how she feels- so be it! The comments on here are ruthless and incredibly divisive. Why aren’t women allowed to have their own perspective.
As far as the Duggar’s calling themselves Christians. You could approach that argument from a different perspective and say it clearly doesn’t matter what people identify as if their actions don’t support their chosen label. Streep publicly supports equality. Her actions speak for her and, in my opinion, are far more important.
Agreed. I think women take the definition very differently, it carries a complex meaning especially from decade to decade, age to age. Once we definite it, it is easier to apply it.
“The comments on here are ruthless and incredibly divisive.”
Thank you for pointing this out. There was a time when CB was snarky, witty, humorous and the gossip was just silly fun. Nowadays it seems like pearl-clutching and blowing things out of proportion are increasingly the order of the day.
Meryl’s comment is disappointing, that I can understand. But tearing her down for that single quote shows a lack of awareness of the pro-women actions she has taken in the past, and probably shows that one hasn’t even watched the BBC video interview to see what her broader point is. She was actually speaking out against the gender imbalance and pay gap in Hollywood.
Thank you… So sick of people being DRAGGED just because they don’t want to be labeled “feminist”. If you believe in equality and promote that it should be more important than a label.
@LCW-If you believe in gender equality and promote it you ARE a feminist, whether you accept the label or not.
If Meryl hadn’t portrayed herself as a pro equal pay advocate the reaction may be different. If you are supportive of equality for women then you are a feminist. That is the definition. If you feel the need to not use the name for fear that you are viewed as a man hater, then you have given credence to the enemies of equality, like the Rush Limbaughs of the world, who have made that word a negative thing.
If we can take the word bitch back then we sure as hell should be doing it for the word feminist.
Agreed. The good news is the big world out there is not so narrow minded and doesn’t cling to every word. I dislike the today’s combative feminism and wouldn’t associate myself with it either. It’s my opinion, my life, my choice and I have every right to it, so does she.
@maryalice, if you seriously think today’s feminism is “combative,” you would have gotten the vapors at the feminism of the 60s and 70s I grew up with! Rush Limbaugh and his “Femanazis” has done a good job.
She is an idiot. The word “feminist” has been hijacked many years ago by women extremists. But the first feminists and the majority of “feminists” were and are about equality not the subjugation of men. I consider myself a feminist. I do not believe I am better than a man but equal to. And women deserve equal pay and equal opportunities.
CAROL, SPOT THE FUCKED ON!!!:-) Meryl is sloppily utterly disappointing without a script. Argh!
I definitely consider myself a feminist but much of this comment section serves as a good example for how rigid and alienating some people can find the movement. So many people’s reactions these days seem to be- if u don’t agree with me STFU. Can’t we lighten up a little bit & give each other the benefit of the doubt?
Excellent point Marny. Perhaps the word “feminism” needs to be reclaimed from the pearl-clutchers and outrage brigade as well.
Thanks Beth No. 2 and spot on.
there is a group of people that as soon as women gain temporary parity for this sociological period they are going to abandon the term feminism and just say ‘humanist’ or whatever. Then there is another group which I consider myself to be in that is paying attention to what is going on in the middle east north africa where women are living in an archaic hell, who are never going to abandon this label because we realize that when enough depraved males gain political power (such as the far right is trying to do in the US) women are going to suffer. Streep is economically insulated from ever needing to use that label. She SHOULD want her sons and other male loved ones to be feminists. She SHOULD allow for diversity of thought among feminists just in the same way there are 47 different kinds of male conservatives and no one bats an eye. She’s a weak, spineless, shrinking violet. What a shame.
LOL, the self-importance. I suggest you read the thoughtful and well-articulated posts of those like Sam’s at 3.19pm below if you ever feel the need again to lecture other women on why they should cling on to the feminist label.
It’s the objection to labeling I don’t understand at all.
“Do you ever eat meat or fish?”
“No”
“Then you’re a vegetarian”
“WOW, WITH THE LABELS. HOW DARE YOU. “
But Nic, read this thread and you’ll find that most of the “HOW DARE YOU” comments come from those who are outraged that others do not adopt the same label as themselves. Not those who are exercising their PERSONAL choice not to identify with it.
Who are the extremists who hijacked the word feminist? I don’t get why it’s such a dirty word now and it’s too bad that some women feel ashamed to identify as one. I have a friend who doesn’t like to identify as one either, as somehow she thinks it means she’s angry, militant, and doesn’t like men. It used to frustrate me but now i just think these poor women have bought into the sexism of our culture.
Maybe we do need a new word as someone above mentioned– or we need to takt back the word and make it ours: I am the F (feminist) Word. And proud of it.
@carol,
I disagree. I think the word was hijacked by our enemies. The Fox and friends types. The Phyllis Schlafly’s of the world. They want us to fight among ourselves over the word, instead of working together for change. They started by calling feminists, lesbians. Then man-haters. Then ‘stay at home mom’ haters. Until we get to the point where young women are scrambling to not be called feminists.
@Nina
I think we keep the word, just educate our young women and girls on what it means. Quite simply it means equality. Everything else is meant to change the subject. Equality.
You know, Kaiser, Jayna and everyone here…
Most of us could answer this question for her very easily. Did Meryl not give any thought at all to what feminism really means before making this movie?!
I don’t like jumping on people, who don’t make themselves clear. If she had been asked the same question, out of context of the movie, I could understand her answer. Meryl should have anticipated these questions. She should have thought ahead of her answers. This is rather disappointing. The promoting of her film has just started, so hopefully she can clarify her thoughts. Or it could be this is exactly what she believes.
As we all like to quote Shakespeare around here, “The lady doth protest too much…”
She could’ve could’ve answered this in five words or less, but now she’s #merylsplaining – and as this usually goes, only making matters worse.
I agree. I think she’s the worst actress since Ginger Rogers, and she’s foolish to make such idiotic statements. Meryl: Finish taking a shit and stay off the pot. There are a lot of much more talented people out there waiting to take over for you! Can we say Glenn Close, Helen Mirren or Vanessa Redgrave?
If you’re going to publicize a movie about feminists you can at least relate the question back to what THEY were about.
Instead of talking about what some airhead says now, relate back to the intentions and challenges the film portrays.
She sounds like she doesn’t really get what the film is about and what life was like for women back then.
i. can’t. even.
+1000
I’m equally disappointed and impressed. She’s been an idiot this whole time and had us all fooled.
Yes. This was her chance to talk about the way life WAS and what feminism has done for women, who now take it for granted.
I’m a feminist. I would give my life for my husband, my brothers and my father. These two things have absolutely nothing to do with one another.
Exactly. I’m married to a man whom I love, I work in a very male dominated world with some great male friends, love my father, and my brother, and would do anything for them. But they would do the same for me, and I make sure to associate myself with the kind of men who don’t think unfair treatment of women is ever okay.
I’ve majorly lost my love for Meryl. Shame how she’s managed to win the career lottery and worked her butt off for it, but still thinks feminism is about hating men, or whatever. Maybe that’s why she’s done so well – maybe she plays into the role that so many idiots in Hollywood expect.
Not to mention that feminism has always embraced the idea that everyone should live up to their full potential and be what they want to be, regardless of typical gender roles. So it’s all about men ignoring gender biases/prejudices that hurt them, too.
Seriously but we shouldn’t even have to say this, you know? It’s amazing to me that she wouldn’t understand something so obvious.
My Lord she’s just not very bright is she?
She’s completely thoughtless. For some reason because she’s Meryl Streep people want to say she’s making an important point with her word salad here. No. She’s just saying nonsense. I was honestly more shocked when she backed Russell Crowe. Astounded. She can’t possibly be that ignorant.
She is one hell of an actress. For decades she had women duped as being a smart one. Turns out she has been an idiot all this time and we had no clue whatsoever.
Underneath all that I love men stuff, there is also an implication that if you were married to a woman then you might be one of those bad feminists. Hints of homophobia in that response.
+1
Feminism doesn’t exclude men!
These people, seriously.
I HATE when women go with the “but I love men” argument. It’s irrelevant and yet so ironic. Can we NOT define feminism by our feelings about men?
You may call me a feminist… but I love asparagus!
There are a depressing shit-ton of people who do NOT get the irony – or see the problematic nature of other-identification – to which you refer. Often, I get the feeling that these are also some of the same people who relegate their binary approach to logic and the world with “If ________, then _______” as a comfortable default mode.
@Pedro45: YEEESSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!! Feminism has less to do about men and more to do about women arriving at a place where they are rightfully valued, acknowledged and rewarded. The only time a man has anything to with feminism is when he is a feminist himself! These idiot women thinking feminism makes you unfeminine, unsexy, man-eating, man-hating, succubus is just so stupid!!! Meryl you are an idiot in this regard.
Thank you. We should remember, however, that this is not Meryl’s first clueless moment. She said not that long ago that she didn’t agree that there are no good roles for women over a certain age and was roundly slammed for that. I don’t know that I ever heard her apologize or walk that back. Yes, there are good roles but they are all played by Meryl Streep or Helen Mirren.
Yes, exactly! This is not her first shortsighted comment.
It must be nice in the Meryl Streep bubble where there’s no sexism or even need for feminism cause everything’s just peachy.
That’s a clip from a really long interview she and Carey Mulligan did with Auntie Beeb. I saw the whole thing and it was WEIRD. Streep couldn’t string anything coherent together during the entire thing, bridled a few times at innocuous questions, too. Plus, the actual interview must have been a nightmare. The 10-15 minutes we got was cut really amateurishly and obviously – and for all Auntie’s sins, she never puts out this sort of piece in a less than seamless presentation. Makes me wonder what on earth ELSE Meryl said during it for to be broadcast like that!
Just that brief clip of mishmash is all kinds of strange. Would love to have been in the editing room – if only to share the pain – since you say the longer version was even more so! (I tried to find it on youtube and then beeb site, but no could do. Boo.)
One thing I see in it: a public person full of sighs and hesitations, who is somewhat histrionically prevaricating and making it dramatically clear that she is ‘being careful with her words’… when absolutely no pussyfooting around is required or appreciated by any of us who actually like and care about owning direct, clear words.
I can also see why she needs good scripts to look good. Or smart.
I’m married to a man and I have a son. And I am a feminist. Oh Meryl, you are disappointing me so.
Ditto to all (except I have a daughter). And what kind of message is this for her husband, son and all the other men out there?
Would respect her so much more if she said, “Of course I’m a feminist. I’ve been fortunate but I’m well aware that I’m a lucky exception. My husband shares my belief that women and men should get equal treatment, and we’ve raised our son that way too.”
My son and daughter were both raised with the knowledge that men and women should be equal. My daughter thinks women should be more equal than others. We need to teach our children, especially our sons, about what feminism is and what it isn’t.
Streep is a moron. I aman unabashed feminist who would also give my life for my husband, sons and father .
Her statement made little sense to me, but did we expect more? She’s an actress. Known for good acting and playing strong, intelligent women. That doesn’t make herself the same. Playing smart in the words and lives of others doesn’tean she is that.
I think wires got crossed and we assumed a lot.
The thing is–you’d expect someone who is able to bring that kind of depth to characters….would be intelligent. Not necessarily know everything, etc, but would be able to give thoughtful answers, reflecting their intelligence.
At the VERY least, I would’ve expected Meryl to go into what feminism meant, during the time the film took place, and tell us whether or not she agreed, and why.
yes. You would think she would have at least done some research into the role she played, the movement at the time, and how it relates to the world we live in now. Clearly those questions would come up during the press junket for the film.
@Virgilia Coriolanus You know I’ve been thinking about this lately… does one have to be intelligent in order to be a truly great actor?
Val
Not to take VC’s… It’s the ability to mimic. And why actors were once considered a very low talentless profession.
VC
Makes sense and I would have also figured Meryl picked up a few messages from filming this.
Streep is smart. She went to Vassar, her daughters went to Vassar. My son was friends with her daughter, who is smart. That doesn’t mean she is wise. She has lived in the economic bubble of the top .001 %, and it shows.
@Val
I would think that in some way, you would have to be intelligent to understand the reasons and motivations of complex characters. You may not be book smart, etc…..but I think to understand the different facets of different characters…you have to be intelligent.
I just don’t understand what Meryl’s going on about. If I was her, I would be speaking about what feminism meant during the time period of the movie, to what *I* think feminism is, and to what it means nowadays. That’s very basic.
“I love men. And I am a Feminist.” Can we please put this on a t-shirt?
Mic drop!
Wow. So inarticulate, but somewhere in that clusterwhoop of words I think she was trying to make the point that certain people have radicalized the image of feminism (“feminazi” – Limbaugh, I’m looking at you), while she actually believes in the principles if equality that truly define feminism and did from the start of the movement.
Or whatever. I don’t know. I wish I drank coffee at moments like this.
I get what she was trying to say, and if she had said it like you have, and I’m sure other posters here will then she would have gotten back in my good graces but she has failed spectacularly and made me utterly despondent in her yet again.
Izzy i get what you’re saying. I’m taking away something similar from that interview.
I wish that was the point she was trying to make. I believe she just thinks that feminist = man hater.
I’m with GNAT here.
She started her argument with the caveat that she loves her husband and son thus implying that if she identified as a feminist that would mean she hated her husband and son.
She compounds that thought with the argument about feminazis which only goes to show that she’s one of those women who has bought into the male dominated argument that to identify as a feminist is to hate men and ill wish them.
(Mispost. this was intended for the discussion below initiated by Alice and Shambles but I’ll leave it here)
Traditionalists and MRAs tainted that word to divide the movement. So now its a red herring that we spend inordinate amounts of time and effort trying to reclaim instead of dealing with the issues. Its really sad to say because so much was won by so many brave women under the feminist banner, but it may be time to find ourselves a new brand. Then we can go back to dealing with real challenges.
@ Naya: Of course they did. Divide and conquer. And now, please note they are systematically asking this question to successful women in the public eye. Either way they lose. Those who belive the demonized definition will hate them if they say they are, those who understand what it means will be disappointed in them if they say they aren’t. They are being set up for a lose/lose situation, regardless of how they answer and regardless of whatever they have done in their lives to forward equality. Semantics manipulation bullsh*t.
Didn’t that idea that feminism = man hater go out with the 1970s? Is she showing her age here? When was the last time anyone burned a bra? And if she’s referring to Rush, when has she considered his views valid before? And yet, someone must have talked to her about this since “humanist”, yet she’s not changing her tune.
Quite possibly related to the fact that Hillary plans to run for President. Rush is not exactly a Democrat, is he?
Sorry Birdix, I should maybe expand on that. I think people like Limbaugh are perfectly capable of laying “negativity groundwork” and trying to taint prominent women who might speak out for her.
@Birdix Spend time on any site where young men congregate, be it Reddit or gamers sites or even youtube comments and you quickly realise the new generation hostility towards “feminists”. “Feminist” to these guys (and girls who routinely agree with them) is a pampered woman seeking special favor. They really do believe that “feminists” flipped the script and now men are the only oppressed gender. We get further by working on teaching this generation the different ways that patriarchy harms both sexes and that it impacts women much worse, I’m not sure the term “feminist” assists that process. It is truly sad that we are even having a discussion on retiring the word but you win the war by picking battles.
@Naya: I tend to agree. I live in a country that has come far when it comes to women’s rights and equal opportunity, among the top in the world, I believe. And we basically discarded the dictionary definition of feminism a long time ago, and adopted a new word, that translates to something like “gender equality”. This definitely doesn’t seem to be holding back our progress, probably the opposite, so I think it was a good call. It doesn’t carry the baggage of the word “feminism”, and is perceived as more inclusive to men, linguistically speaking.
The word “feminism” is still part of our vocabulary, but usually thrown around in a mocking way (describing women who are pro-women, rather than pro-equality), by people who support equal rights and would have no problem standing up for this. I know people here would side-eye this hard, but I’m not seeing any real-world problems with accepting that this battle is lost and moving on, sans all this confusion.
Izzy, that’s exactly what I read, too. She doesn’t want to align herself with what the word “feminist” has recently become: a man-hating, woman-centric superior. Unfortunately, the internet is full of SJW and pop stars and other idiots who have [inadvertently?] repurposed the word. But she does identify as a feminist by the original definition, which her role choices and other actions confirm. What a cluster, with this word.
And she has a position of authority. She could assert her authority by shutting down the prejudicial use of “feminism” and being clear and unafraid.
+1 THANK YOU. Here in this forum, Feminism means equality between sexes. But on other places, like the deep SJW vortex of Tumblr, the definition has been changed and warped to various ones I do not support. I think Meryl needs to check her privilege and learn to give a coherent interview answer, but I think people on this forum sometimes miss that it’s not so much a matter of “reading up on the definition of feminism” as understanding that the definition has changed in many different arenas and therefore is a tricky label.
Yeah…Meryl is really worried about calling herself a feminist because she doesn’t want to be likened to the Tumblr set of the issue?
Nah, let’s take Meryl for her words. She’s a rich white millionaire who wants it to be absolutely clear how much she adores men and how it’s just pain her to call herself a feminist yet wants to make a movie about a movement of women who also loved men but we’re tired of being treated as lesser.
In other words she is selfish and self-seeking.
And by replying this way to the question she is perpetrating the “man-hater” definition of feminism…
Yup, Feminism has different branches and they also vary with each wave, and some of them can get really weird. You can go from people like Naomi Weisstein (equalitarian) to people like Germaine Greer
(Liberation feminist), with completely different theories.
Sadly, most of them don’t acknowledge this, as GNAT said, it reads only as a “man hating” thing, which destroys the opportunity for proper debate.
I’m so disappointed. How can she be so unaware, considering the movie she is promoting. Is she all about money and not substance after all?
Me too. She has such a platform, could have been used to clarify the true, very simple meaning of the word, and instead she’s giving fuel to those denigrating it. So disappointing.
How can an actress with her experience not have a clear message to share about feminism considering the film she is promoting? She isn’t a new actress who doesn’t really know how things work! She is human and can make mistakes but this just seems to amateurish too me and it shows how ignorance can really come from surprising places.
It seems to me as if women are operating in a vacuum. Does anyone else have sons who tell them the theories of manhood that are taught them by our culture? One of my sons says that women have it harder, that they need extra help from men because of it. Another says that he knows that being a white male is the topnotch position in society- and he’s glad he was born into that power. I have a degree in women’s studies, and its not like my young men are unaware – but they are honest about what occurs in the socialization process by *other men*. My point is that the top dogs in patriarchy are well-aware of their position – and they like it! Men have their inner circles, while women argue terms. They also know that women who booty kiss this issue are willing victims of their lot, and are happy to play follow the leader with them.
I think she’s coming from a stance where she knows the word “feminism” has been demonized in some circles. And it has…there are many people who sadly equate the word with “man hating radicals”, a viewpoint which has certainly been fostered by male dominated media as a means of delegitimising the whole idea in a large swath of the population.
I know we’ve been discussing definitions over the past several posts on this, but ultimately it’s what people have been lead to believe something is that sticks, not what’s in the dictionary.
I absolutely hear what you’re saying, and completely agree with your assessment about how the word feminism has been demonized in some circles. However, I don’t think the solution is to refuse to use the word altogether. Like you said, this demonization of feminism has occurred largely theough male-dominated media. So if we refuse to use the word feminism just because they’ve turned it into the quintessential boogeyman, it’s almost like they “win.” Instead, I think those who know what the heart of feminism truly means should hold fast, so that we can start to reclaim the word that has begun to slip away from us. The demonization of the word feminism is exactly why we NEED feminism.
Right on Shambles.
To clarify:
One doesn’t stop being a christian because the Duggars exist.
One doesn’t stop being a Muslim because ISIS exists
One doesn’t stop believing in civil rights because Malcolm X once advocated for violence as a viable means to an end.
One doesn’t stop believing in LGBT rights just because some extremists are present in the movement.
Names have power. That’s why people like Rush Limbargh (sp?) are working so hard to demonise the name ‘feminist’ and to change it to ‘feminazi’. The better better frighten people with it.
Yes and no. Part of me thinks that arguing over semantics is a waste of time. Time better spent forwarding equality. In some ways, even entering the game of “your definition, my definition” is also a win for them because you’ve just allowed them to establish their own ground rules of what the game actually is and allowed yourself to be distracted by a non-productive sideline word ownership issue. I also think that’s what she was trying to do with her “Humanist” comment. Ok, the “ownership” of that word has been apparently claimed decades or centuries ago, but the gist if what she was saying was “male, female, race, sexual orientation, height, weight, age etc”, underneath it all, we are all just humans.
What Lak said, all o’ that.
Alice, again I hear you. It can be tiring, and seem like a waste of precious time. But in my personal opinion, taking a stand for the word feminism IS fighting for equality. To me, there is no “your definition vs. my definition.” There is only THE definition, and then those who have tried to co-opt it into something else for their own purposes.
@ Shambles: likely my water sign nature. :). You can spend a lot of time trying to erode the rock in your way, or you can just go around it and continue towards your goal. I completely got what Grace Jones was saying about political correctness being BS. It’s not the word you use, it’s the intent behind it that really matters. It’s all still a label, it’s all still a means of putting people into “renamed” categories. And in some ways, the whole movement of political correctness aka “the word police” gives power to people like Limbaugh who co-opt and redefine words into something negative because it’s ultimately based on fear. People like that are control freaks and the only way to deal with that sort of person is to react intelligently and in such a way that they realize that no matter what they do to try to control whatever situation that is in front of them, there are 10,000 ways to go around whatever they think will control you.
Go, LAK!
I’m down with “names have power.” Of course they do, that’s why we care about them, and we shouldn’t have to whisper or tiptoe around something as central to universal human rights as the feminist movement.
Yes, we have to reclaim the word, not run away from it because some people have tried to taint it. Shambles and LAK said it all.
@Shambles, LAK and GNAT, bingo, bingo, bingo.
Well, my point of view on choosing your battles is pretty clear above. It’s the concept that counts, not the label. And if some a**hole thinks he can control and derail the concept by attempting to co-opt the label and redefining it… let him waste his energy on that. The rest of us have better uses for our time and energy rather than engaging in a battlefield defined by someone who is clearly “the enemy” on this issue. Has no one but me read “The Art of War” here? Never let your opponent choose the battlefield, it will always be to their advantage. Always.
Words matter and if we feel they are being misused we should use them properly and stand by them. As a vegan in a world where many vegans are too passionate and aggressive I have to deal with the negative image people have of Veganism in general. What I do is try to be the best example, the kind of vegan I would like to meet and for many people who know very little about veganism and what it implies, I become the example, a good one. I find the issues people have with the word feminism quite similar.
@Alice too: “Part of me thinks that arguing over semantics is a waste of time. Time better spent forwarding equality.”
I do appreciate your frustration, but would like to add a corollary about my own: some of us argue about & wrestle with words for a living, for our art, and for all sorts of good reasons. I often try very hard to use exactly the right words in an effort to ‘forward equality,’ so those two ideas are not mutually exclusive in the least. We are all wrestling with, for and over words on this thread because sometimes, that’s exactly what we have available to us to find our way somewhere, together. In that aspect, I see ‘arguing over semantics’ more as understanding semantics so that we may better understand each other.
Pet peeve + source of infernal, eternal word nerdly indignation from moi: I wish people with a platform – in this case, Meryl Streep (an actor who also needs the right words to make a living, for goodness’ sake) – took more care with words; that they had a little self-discipline when appropriate; that they were more thoughtful about the ramifications of expressing themselves poorly…
Well, at any rate, in some ways I guess I’m GLAD people are still actively tussling over the powerful and relevant word ‘feminism’ – if for no other reason than the ongoing struggle towards its definition both parallels and represents a very real, practical fight that should not be over, either. Even when its detractors attempt to sabotage it, they are also acknowledging its power in spite of themselves. Mmmwwwaaaahhhh.
@belle: standing ovation! Well said, from one word nerd to another.
Of course words have power–immense power! How can this even be up for debate? How can we argue so vociferously about the usage of “rebel” and “slave” in one thread and not apply that same vigour here? Reclamation of words and labels is an important act of community-building within social and political movements.
If we’re all over here arguing about whether or not we should call ourselves feminists (when that’s what we really are), then people with a platform like Limbaugh go unchecked and the “divide and conquer” strategy has succeeded.
What we need to see are more MALE celebrities standing up and identifying as feminist. If Meryl doesn’t want to identify as one because she loves the men in her life, shouldn’t the opposite also be true? Men should identify as feminist because they love and respect the women in their lives.
Here are a couple who seem to get it:
“All men should be feminists. If men care about women’s rights, the world will be a better place. We are better off when women are empowered; it leads to a better society.” — John Legend
“… we see these images [of sexualized women] on TV, in the movies, and in magazines all the time. And if you don’t stop and think about it, it just sort of seeps into your brain and that becomes the way you perceive reality. I do call myself a feminist. Absolutely! It’s worth paying attention to the roles that are sort of dictated to us and to realize that we don’t have to fit into those roles. We can be anybody we wanna be.” — Joseph Gordon-Levitt
(The quotes are from the Cosmo article “13 Famous Men Explain Why They Identify as Feminists”)
@Petrichor: You are preaching to the choir, sister. And thank you. (I was just about to type ‘Amen’ – but then the ‘men’ part of that struck me as funny in this context.)
Can’t tell you how much I appreciate you pointing out the vigorous debate here about other words, vs. the white flag waiving [sic, intentional] about the words feminism and feminist.
So many comments on this topic state something to the effect that “the word ‘feminism’ has been…” What??? Hold up a sec! Passive tense!!! Why passive tense??? So stop being passive!!! “Has been”… by whom? By what divine authority? Define and reclaim and use and exemplify the word yourselves, as an action verb! Practice the feminism. Be the feminist. Take that word around the block in a bright red Radio Flyer and parade it all you want.
Rush Limbaugh and his ilk do not define, re-write or censor my dictionary, my speech, my acknowledgment of a term’s historical importance or my power to keep giving credence to words and terms while they empower me right back. I do not surrender that superpower to him or to them. Why would anyone?
“Reclamation of words and labels is an important act of community-building within social and political movements.” Man oh man, ain’t that the truth. And just as some worry about people labeling them something they’re afraid to be labelled as, others of us can rebel when the words & labels that work for us are in danger of being minimized and marginalized.
@belle
It’s funny, because just this morning I was chatting with a (male) colleague who was telling me that his 9-year-old daughter recently bought a t-shirt with her own money that read: “Feminism: the radical notion that women are people.” Apparently her “friends” gave her a hard time when she wore this to school, calling her a “girly-girl.” The nine-year-old, and forevermore my hero, schooled her peers on the meaning of feminism (never mind that it was right there on the shirt) and how it differs from “femininity.” And she continues to wear her shirt proudly.
What I learned:
#1: there is hope for the future if girls as young as 9 are willing to self-identify as feminist and educate their peers
#2: dads with daughters are some of the staunchest feminists I know
#3: I need to own one of these shirts!
Petrichor, your wish is my google command:
http://www.wickedclothes.com/products/tri-blend-feminism-is-the-radical-notion-charity-shirt (It doesn’t have the graduate school thesis colon, but it does have all the words.)
In turn, I’d be thrilled to wear a t-shirt with the image of this 9-year-old wonder crone. It will be the perfect wardrobe choice as I busy my feminist self by hating on men, being all radical and loud about everything, and – oh, yeah – stubbornly use perfectly good words and stuff. In context.
Thanks belle! That site is awesome. There are so many shirts on that site I want!
And lol @ “9-year-old wonder crone.” I only hope I do as well with my daughter. I’d love to be able to call her that. 😊
I think that is exactly what she is pointing out too. Also, we’ve become so accustomed to tiny sound bites that we no longer listen to a person’s statements all the way through their thought process. She’s pointing out how younger women, like the Shaleine’s, have come to view and define the word, thanks to the constant negative barrage from the likes of Limbaugh and Trump in our media, which is not the original definition of the word or the word as used when Streep herself was coming of age.
Thank you for these thoughtful and measured responses ladies. I get what Meryl is saying, even though I disagree and think that she has misunderstood the word feminism. As you said, the word has indeed been demonised in some circles. We need to reclaim it, but I wish it could be done through level-headed, cogent debate and not pearl-clutching, outsized Internet rage. The latter does no favours and serves to further alienate the true meaning of the word.
As a more general point, I am SO SICK of people increasingly ignoring the context of statements or shades of meaning, and simply latching on a particular phrase and starting the chest-thumping and gnashing of teeth. As far as I know Meryl has been supportive of females in Hollywood; her actions speak for themselves. Sure, her recent comment and the T-shirt controversy show a disappointing lack of awareness, but tearing her down is just so hyperbolic and ridiculous. Call her out, disagree with her, but leave the pearl-clutching at home please. I even saw on Twitter comments that she needs to “DIE DIE DIE”. I can’t roll my eyes hard enough.
And as a final point, celebs are human and their capacity for idiocy is not diminished simply cos they are famous. Feeling disappointed and sore because your faves said something dumb? Well, how about not putting them on a pedestal in the first place.
Hmmmm…I guess I just don’t see how having the expectation that the most well-acclaimed actress of our time might self-identify as a feminist is “putting a celebrity on a pedestal”.
How has she been supportive of women in Hollywood? She had a chance to say “YES, while I am an older woman who has been fortunate to act in many great films, with multi-layered characters…..many other actresses are not, while nothing changes for the men.” She didn’t. She insisted there wasn’t anything wrong. If WE understand the system of Hollywood i.e. for women, the younger the better, with rare exceptions……how familiar do you think SHE is?
@Kitten
I’m not referring specifically to that, but the notion that celebs do not say dumb things. They are all capable of voicing cringey opinions, in fact even more so as many of them live in a privileged bubble. Whether they are “acclaimed” or not is a function of their craft, not of their character.
@VirgiliaCoriolanus
She has on several occasions advocated for more female-centred films to be made. She also funded a screenwriters clinic for women aged over 40. Outside of the industry, she is the spokeswoman for the National Women’s History Museum and donated her Iron Lady fee of $1 million to the institution. So all these count for nothing simply because she doesn’t want to verbally identify as a “feminist”? As she said in an interview yesterday, her actions speak for themselves. But clearly people on the internet are happy to skewer her over words and her personal choice to identify in the way she feels most comfortable. Girls nowadays are taught we can be anything we want, except a non-feminist apparently.
And can you explain how “She insisted there wasn’t anything wrong”? I didn’t watch the full BBC interview but from the video clip above, Meryl actually spoke out against the gender wage gap in Hollywood as well as the power of film distributors and financiers who are mostly male. In no way is she insisting there wasn’t anything wrong.
I’ve nothing against you and I hope you don’t take this personally, but your reaction is a good example of how people nowadays just take a single quote and fly into a rage or indignance of outsized proportions without considering the context of which said quote is made.
I’m torn. I agree with you to a point. We do need to examine shades of meaning and pay attention to context. I’m very much against the pitchfork mentality but I also understand why so many are disappointed and infuriated, myself included. I’m with Shambles, Eternal Side-Eye et al in believing that we have to reclaim the word feminist but I also think we have to be careful and try and and understand why some women do not identify as feminists while still believing and supporting everything the word stands for.
@I Choose Me
Pretty much agree with all your points. I’m for reclaiming the word “feminist”, but it needs to be done in a level-headed, cogent way that commands respect. That has a far larger chance of the word resonating with and winning over skeptics than any kneejerk outrage would.
Notwithstanding the importance of words, I do think deeds count more. Sadly the internet default mode is to go into meltdown and hyperbole over a single quote. I wonder how many of Meryl’s past pro-women initiatives like her speeches, charity functions or funding for pro-women institutions attracted as much coverage and internet commentary as this recent quote of hers.
It infuriates me that the hate-mongers (Limbaugh and his ilk) always manage to pervert everything. I remember Evangeline Lily saying after The Hobbit, “I don’t want to have to act like a man”.
That’s SO not what it’s about. Women are sneered at and put down way too often by those in authority. The men who hate or fear women tell us what we can do with our reproductive and sex lives and when and how we can or cannot do it, and that pass laws to enforce it. Women DO earn less than men for the same job (unless you’re Carly Fiorina or Ivanka) and that has a real impact when you are the main breadwinner for the family. As a divorced mother of three I was told “Well, men have to support a family.” Well, WHAT DID THEY THINK I WAS DOING?
I think women who deny feminism like Phyllis Schafly, also WANT to be dependent on men, they want to be taken care of.
I refuse to be reduced to an object whose only value is as a sex partner or a breeder or a caregiver and cook. We don’t make laws about men’s bodies, and we don’t hate them and we don’t want to BE them. We just want a level playing field and some fair treatment.
Sorry this is so long, but so has the battle for equal rights been, which we still don’t have. And it makes me angry.
I 1000% know that’s what she is saying… as well as the semantics of the word versus standing up for the cause. To deny the word feminism at this point doesn’t come with a fair amount of love and belittling on both sides over last several decades is a fallacy. As well, I actually don’t understand caring whether she uses the word if she’s standing up for the issues of equality and has done so for decades. Me asking Taylor Swift what she’s done for feminism or is she a feminist vs Meryl Streep… Im going with Meryl ladies. Sorry. Meryl knows what the word is and means. Being asked on press if she stands for feminism like its the communist quiz is NOT affective and actually unfair. That’s not the point. Asking what people have done to make equality important is the point. So, keep demonizing people over THE WORD vs their actions… I say you’re stirring in mud.
Feminism = equality. Feminism ≠ hating men or wanting them all dead or wanting women to take over the world.
IS THAT SO BLOODY DIFFICULT FOR THESE PINHEADS TO GRASP AND STATE SIMPLY?!
I am old enough to remember many media stories in which self-identified feminists lobbied to change the spelling of “women” to “womyn” so that men would never be part of their identity. I can remember when a woman who chose to stay home with their children was branded a traitor to her gender. I was uncomfortable with the word for a long time.
This year will go down in gossip history as the year that those celebs that were once universally loved and who could never seemingly do wrong are all showing their @sses. No one’s fave is safe.
Yup
It has been a bad year for that
Yeppers.
Not surprised. I’m just not.
It almost feels like someone is internally impersonating the Meryl Streep we know and love, or that she did a 180 to the land of nonsensical statements about feminism. I mean, when you’re promoting a movie titled Suffragette about the Suffrage movement yet cannot even admit in simple terms that you are in fact a feminist, which only means that you believe that men and women have equal rights, something is terribly disturbingly wrong.
This need to reassert your love for men when discussing feminism is ridiculous and infuriating. If she thinks that saying “I’m a feminist” equates to “I don’t love my husband and son”, then…I don’t even know.
So infuriating which is why I refuse to do it.
It’s nonsense.
Yeah I’ve seen a lot of women try to defend her apprehension but the way she’s desperate to make sure men first know how much she adores them tells me this all comes down to who butters her bread.
This isn’t fear of a word or title, this is her making sure that for all the men who hire her Meryl is considered as available and willing as possible. Metaphorically she wants every single penny of millions while other women starve and she’s making sure that she’s the team player who doesn’t need feminism and loves men first.
Eh, I never had strong feelings about Meryl as a person anyway so this doesn’t disappoint me that much.
Now if Carey and Ramona start saying such nonsense ( which I doubt because Ramona said she’s a feminist years ago when it wasn’t a popular thing) I’d be heartbroken.
+1 I love her as an actress. Her stance on feminism doesn’t change that.
Romola! Romola! My bran blocked there for a second.
So for that matter did Meryl, for decades. That’s what’s so strange about it.
Get it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelina_Grimk%C3%A9
Did you read The Invention of Wings? I have so much admiration for both Gremke sisters. To go against absolutely everything and everyone around them must have been so hard.
This is straw-man feminism! It’s setting up some false idea of feminists as man-hating, anti-humanist harridans on the warpath and then saying she’s not like that. Ugh. It really is destroying some of the good will I’ve always had for her. I have a son, too. I’m raising him to be a humanist and a feminist. Those categories aren’t mutually exclusive.
Spot on.
I am just blown away at her stupidity as are many people who wouldn’t expect such utter bullshit to come out of her mouth! This sounds like what Lady Gaga said about “hailing, praising men” and that’s why she didn’t identify as a feminist…. I mean do you not understand the concept of educating yourself on a topic that has benefited you and continues to do to this day despite the ridiculous setbacks we face? I feel sick that so many of these women with of prominent positions are further perpetuating this idea that feminism is alienating men and somehow we have to make sure the boys aren’t hurt in the process of us being equal! It’s too early for this.
I would counter to the journalists that they should ask men the same question because it’s just as important for men in power to support the forward movement of women’s rights.
Meryl is stuck in her time, which is disappointing, but even your favorites can disappoint.
Many men love the idea of women as sex partners, caregivers and cooks – practically free! And lots of women love the idea of being adored for this (like Meryl). Don’t expect men to give up their power without a stick up their butt, just don’t, because they feel they have it great, AS IS. Why would any normal person give up the greater paycheck? Wouldn’t we expect them to be fully motivated and entrenched in their position? Heck, they tell us that we are attacking their identity and cause them insecurities by our feminisms. Rush and others will even get belligerent and aggressive about it. (But Meryl will comfort…)
Stahp Meryl just STAHP!
Funny how she believes the disgruntled white males version of the definition of what they think a feminist is. Feminist don’t hate men they just want to be able to enjoy the same benifits that men have in this world i.e. Equal pay for the same work, control over their own reproductive system, respected etc. Same way they are trying to make people believe that black lives matter is a militant group. Her and Matt Damon and a few others are suffering from Trumpism. Because to sell movies now you got make half your fans base wonder what the hell they ever saw in you after hearing the crap that comes out their mouth.
So disappointed in Meryl, who I have admired for so long. On the other hand, so inspired and encouraged by the many comments here from people who clearly do get it.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
John Legend:
“While raising money for Chime for Change, a charity that raises funds to improve the lives of women worldwide, the singer declared that all men should be feminists.
“All men should be feminists. If men care about women’s rights, the world will be a better place. We are better off when women are empowered — it leads to a better society.’
That’s how it’s done.
And since most men don’t identify as feminists and don’t view women’s rights as their battle to fight, the world is the way it is now.
That’s not wholly true. Some research actually indicates that men are actually more hospitable to some feminist ideas than women are – especially reproductive rights. Gallup consistently finds that far more men identify as “pro-choice” than women, who tend to identify as “pro-life.” More women espouse anti-abortion views than men, and that’s consistent. Also, as a lawyer, I know this: Men consistently express harsher views towards men who commit rape, sexual assault and domestic violence. True fact: the more women sit on a jury trying a man for a crime against a woman, the more likely he is to be acquitted. That is totally true, because women as a group take a less harsh view of them.
Men are by and large not the people you need to convince to support women’s rights. It’s other women.
@Sam I’m gonna need some references to this research that you’re saying. I’ve found a write up on the most recent Gallup poll concerning this issue (May 2015) and it does not back up your initial statement. Up until 2014 Americans were evenly split (but leaning towards pro-life) with most women choosing pro-choice. In 2015 Americans leaned towards pro choice (for the first time in 7 years) with a slight gender gap showing that men were just a bit more likely to be pro life than women. So I’m going to need which gallup poll you looked at. I looked at this one.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/183434/americans-choose-pro-choice-first-time-seven-years.aspx
It’s possible if we do a break down of the Republican party we might find such a thing to be true, but then that would be surprising.
Now as to the the statement about women being more likely to be sympathetic strikes me as a bit ridiculous. But I need to see the research that you’re talking about. I’ve only found one article so far, but it’s a bit old like 10 years and I gather a lot can change in 10 years.
I love John Legend.
Tumblr is full of young women who constantly bash and belittle men in the name of feminism. That doesn’t mean I’m going to stop calling myself a feminist, those girls are just babies, they don’t get it yet. Meryl Streep should know by now that you can see men as human beings and still call yourself a feminist…she should be helping to take back the conversation, not making it worse.
I agree 100% with this comment. I like the Duggar analogy someone used above. Yes they are a terrible example of Christianity. But that wouldn’t stop a true Christian from calling themselves a Christian. The same should apply to the “feminists” on tumblr you’re referring to. Don’t let that turn you off. Feminism is important.
This. Pity for the humans worried about living their lives because of anonymous strangers on Tumblr.
I like the Bible analogy too. And the Bible states clearly in the book of Romans that we would be judged by what we have done, not by outwardly skin-deep professions of faith. As I stated in my post above, Meryl has been an advocate for women’s rights, makes speeches, donated large sums of money, etc. So all these count for nothing just because she does not identify with a label? Thank God the Bible teaches us to judge by deeds, not words.
like i said, i think women of meryl’s generation are completely misguided, and don’t like the word feminism. there are such negative connotations attached to it, and women of meryl’s age can’t move past it. note that all the younger actresses in the film have said they are feminist without a single doubt.
that said, i hate the whole “i love men”. come on, she has the means to educate herself, especially since she got to play emmeline pankhurst! can she please make an effort? she has daughters, I can’t believe they’re not telling her anything.
Meryl is 69. Women of her generation were at the forefront of the women’s movement in the 60s and 70s. We owe these women a huge debt for challenging the inequality and hatred of women that was rampant at that time. Please don’t disparage an entire generation of women, who fought for equal pay for women and the right to control their own bodies, because some actress doesn’t get it.
Ell, women of Meryl’s generation are the reason feminism exists. How can people not know not?
For god’s sake is it so difficult to open up google and search what the frigging f- ‘feminism’ really means?
But when people criticize feminism, they are usually criticizing the practice, not the theory. Thus, the whole “let me get you a dictionary” line isn’t really an adequate rebuttal.
Much of the practice has been fine. Critics single out the absurd or extreme elements, but the fights for the vote, Equal Rights Amendment (still not passed), abortion rights, health-care access, employment fairness, educational equity, equal funding for athletics, child care, and not having to cook and clean all the damn time (and more) — they’ve done a lot of good for a lot of women and girls, against all odds. And it’s still an uphill battle.
But that’s not true, exactly. Feminism as a movement has always prioritized some groups’ needs over others, particularly when it comes to white women vs. women of color. Let’s take one example – the abortion issue. Feminists spent a ton of energy working to secure abortion rights because they mattered to white women. But here’s the thing – how often did you hear about the flip side, which almost exclusively impacted women of color? And that’s forced abortions and sterilizations. A speaker I once heard, who was a black woman, said, “Our fight was never to obtain abortions. Our fight was to be free from abortion.” But how often do you hear about it? A lot of WoC are alienated by mainstream feminism’s veneration of Margaret Sanger, who, despite promoting BC and reproductive rights, was an avowed Eugenicist who believed BC was the path towards eliminating “undesirables” – which mostly meant racial minorities and the disabled and mentally ill. So I – as a WoC and a mentally ill person – should enthusiastically join a movement that venerates a person who would have seen me dead or never existing?
That’s the problem. Has Feminism done good? Yes, but mostly for a particular segment of women and girls, and I hope I don’t need to spell out which ones. If you look at the data, WoC, especially black women, have not reaped the benefits of all that stuff you cited above. So why should we support that?
Wonderful post, Sam.
Angela Davis, Audre Lorde, Alice Walker, are gifted and practical black feminists who discuss the interlocking systems of gender, race, and class. Not all white women respond adequately to black women’s “multiple jeopardy”.
Thank you, Sam, for your contributions here! The lockstep groupthink is enough to put anyone off a “word” if this is what it represents.
@Sam, thank you! never never brought up and abortion rights are always delivered as an automatic “good” without any disclaimer of eugenics and historical racial sterilizations practices, also huge in Native American communities.
Here’s what I think:
Meryl is a produce of her time. She’s older now. Meryl came of age in the second wave. And in the second wave, there was a strong overtone of misandry at times from certain sectors. The second wave also birthed lesbian separatism, which was basically a movement that encouraged women to give up on men and embrace being solely with women, regardless of whether they were attracted to them or not. The second wave was also the time when feminism was often placed in opposition to traditionally female or “femme” things – like housework, domesticity, etc. That did alienate a lot of women because they saw feminism as basically saying “To be equal to men, we must become men.” So I wonder if Meryl, each time she gets asks about feminism, goes back to that time as her frame of reference. If so, that makes it a bit easier to understand. Otherwise, yeah, it’s not very smart.
I think you’re totally right and I appreciate that your post was so thoughtful and fair. Meryl was on her feet moments into Patricia Arquette’s oscar’s speech about equal pay and I thought her call for diversity in movie critics was spot-on. I don’t doubt at all that she is a feminist in the true sense of the word but she seems to have experienced some negativity surrounding it and she feels more comfortable identifying as a humanist. It’s seems to me that it’s a shame but she doesn’t deserve to be vilified.
I think you’re right in that she is “a product of her time.” It’s just unfortunate she never questioned or outgrew her antiquated ideas like other members of her generation. I also think it may be an attempt to remain commercially appealing and non-threatening to social conservatives. After her experiences testifying about Alar before the US Congress she appears to be intentionally less controversial.
Thank you for that. There were also a number of feminist writers who argued that women in heterosexual relationships could never achieve equality (due to the nature of our patriarchal culture). I can see how Meryl might still be influenced by those writings when considering feminism.
This may be, but she can read and talk to people and keep up with the changing times, yes? Or even acknowledge, “When the term first came into vogue, it was criticized as X Y Z but I think that’s nonsense.”
But that disregards a big thing with humans: We tend to frame things in the way we remember them when we were first exposed. If Meryl’s first exposure to feminism was as a misandrist, anti-feminine movements, that probably made a huge impression on her and she retains that framing. It can be really hard for a person to shake those initial experiences. Personally, if that’s the case, I cut her some slack. I judge actions far more. Meryl seems like she actually does care about equality (albeit a fairly privileged form of it), so I tend to not see her as that bad. Naïve, privileged, yes, all that, but not some kind of anti-woman monster.
Now young women like Lady Gaga have no excuses, since they came of age in the 3rd wave, which cast off a lot of the baggage of the second and is fairly easygoing in women embracing feminine things and loving men. They don’t have this excuse.
Except that I am also a product of that time. She’s six years older than I am. Yes, sometimes people have to get angry before anything gets done, and some ugliness is always associated with that. Some people in any movement go too far or get it wrong. But the basic tenets have never changed that much. Everyone should have the freedom to reach their full potential, however they see that.
I think you are making excuses for her. There were always women who would not do anything they thought would turn men off, and I think that’s what this is about. She believes that if she says she’s a feminist, people will think she hates men. And men won’t like her.
This. Look I certainly don’t think she should be getting threats or anything for her views. But she shouldn’t be coddled for them either. She’s a woman of the FIRST world. She’s educated, rich, and has access to a million resources that can do that. She’s an actress so she has to study humans and by that logic she has to study the things they stand for no????? So no. This is not an excuse. She’s fully capable (as she herself believe by the way) of not sounding so completely ignorant and daft and giving a much more intelligent thoughtful response to this question. She CHOSE to not do so.
I’ll never understand the need to assign some noble motivation or excuse what certain celebs tell us. How about she’s not that bright and just as blinded by her privilege as the people she dislikes.
This. I don’t believe this is about what world she grew up in. I think it’s about privelage and comfort. I said when she first announced she wasn’t a feminist that it didn’t surprise me because her previous comments about not seeing any issues in the roles available for older women were so ridiculous and focused only on herself that I already knew what kind of person she was.
When someone shows you their character, believe them.
Eh, I don’t think it’s an excuse. It’s her being inside a bubble. A lot of older women got very turned off of the idea of feminism precisely because the extremism they saw within the second wave. And that’s partially why the feminist movement today is still so fractured, because they are still around. You still have the TERFs, the White Feminists, the misandrists, etc. They’re still active, still causing crap. They drive people away from feminism. Look at why Womanism exists – it’s because there’s a whole contingent of white women who refuse to engage in intersectional analysis. Transfeminism exists precisely because TERFs a still a part of the mainstream (though it is getting better). There are a ton of women out there who have excellent reasons for not being feminists, although Meryl doesn’t fit within any of those groups.
Honestly, I think she’s slightly dumb, but I also think this is another example of not seeing the forests from the trees. I don’t especially care what she calls herself (although she’s using the wrong term – I think she’s really trying to say she’s an “egalitarian.”). Actions means more, and she has done a serious amount of action to try to promote gender equity. I don’t want people to use the label unless they 1.) use it right, and 2.) actually mean it.
Meryl pretty clearly sees feminism as a misandrist thing. And here’s the thing – she’s not wholly wrong. There IS a current of feminism that thinks that way – it’s not the majority, but it’s there. That is like criticizing an atheist who became so after having an awful experience in a fundamentalist Christian church. Should they be criticized on the grounds that they have only experience with a small representative of Christianity as whole and that they should have been more open and learn more before rejecting it outright? I doubt you’d find much support for that here. But if Meryl was exposed to that kind of feminism when she was forming her opinion of it, that could possibly color her view now. I personally know several women around Meryl’s age who have the same framing – but that’s because that’s what they got exposed to. If you stuck around to care about feminism, I suppose your view changed. But if it drove you off, what reason would you now have to care if it changes? I see this less as a woman screwing over the movement and more of a older woman who probably got alienated early and never looked back. And while I kind of shake my head, I also can get that.
I think you are right, but my problem is that she is part of a film that deals with feminism so I would expect her to do some homework and study the subject. I thought actors of her level did that and clearly she stayed with her preconceived ideas about feminism and didn’t dig deeper. That’s what’s really disappointing to me, because in reality she is a feminist through her actions so she is actually playing a part in trying to make the world better, but not having an understanding of the concept of feminism ends up hurting how people perceive it because she is a famous actress giving interviews about this film and this could’ve been a great platform to set the record straight…
Agreed.
I was thinking this as well but you expressed it so much better than I would’ve.
Mark Ruffalo:
“In response to a question about the lack of female directors in the film industry, Forbes said that women need to make up at least 50 percent of directors in Hollywood. Ruffalo went on to add his two cents: “I agree. I love women directors. I’m a feminist, by the way.”
“I didn’t know there were any [non-feminists] left in the world,” he later added. “I thought we pretty much came to the 50-50, like [feminism]-is-cool conclusion.”
Recently, Ruffalo reblogged a post on Tumblr that discussed women who openly reject feminism. During the interview, he talked about his reasons for posting the essay and why it’s so important.
“The substance of the piece I really agreed with, which was basically women saying that feminism basically sucked,” he said. “And the woman [writer] was saying you enjoy a lot of things that people starved to death in a prison cell so that you could vote today. People put their lives on the line so that you had freedoms, that you could join the workforce.”
“Recently, Ruffalo reblogged a post on Tumblr ”
ruffalo is on tumblr. ok.
At least we have Mark always!!!
I wish I could buy the ‘liberal-social-justice-warrior-good-guy’ shtick Ruffalo is selling.
But when female fans were insulted and upset by Age of Ultron’s treatment of Black Widow, Ruffalo jumped right on the mansplaining train to tell all the silly feminists why they were wrong for feeling the way they felt, because his buddy Whedon, another rich white man, was the ultimate feminist or whatever. For all his lip-service about feminism, he still thinks his voice should overpower actual women in the end.
Oh, but it’s obviously more important that he term himself a feminist versus the way he actually conducts himself.
I love Mark Ruffalo, too!
I’m amazed that someone so loved, respected and seemingly intelligent equates feminism with hatred or dislike of men.
Random, but it’s too bad that a self proclaimed feminist like Beyoncé is bashed to no end by commenters, many saying that there’s no way she’s a feminist because of how she dresses and dances. But the famed Meryl Streep, who many used to see as a feminist has almost outright stated that she is not. What I’m seeing is that women who do not want to be called feminists are bashed, and rightly so. But then women who say they ARE feminists are also bashed because they don’t fit in with your idea of what feminism is. It’s disappointing.
It’s not a difficult concept to grasp, it’s very easy to understand. Even so, I don’t think Meryl is the only one that doesn’t “get” what feminism is all about.
This.
I have a tenuous relationship with feminism but I don’t give these celebrities a pass, mostly because every and I do mean EVERY one who has ever denied feminism has never given a good reason. It’s all the same gobbledegook about loving men and…loving men because you know…you gotta REALLY make sure men know how much you love them in EVERY single conversation ya know?
None of these chicks can look past their own altered noses to the women in the same industry and arena as them let alone to women who are living in entirely different circumstances than them and their clueless (Meryl) or condescending (Annie Lennox) tones are so disheartening.
Feminists need to stop worrying about whether women enjoy their bodies or show off their bodies so long as they are ACTIVELY trying to support girls who need support. Beyonce has done more for being a feminist than half these women people keep claiming ‘have helped women so much’.
Thank you!!! You put it much better than I ever could. I hope everyone reads your post!
I was listening to Flawless by Beyonce last night and it struck me how major it is. You have a celebrity woman putting the title of a modern female African philosopher directly in her own song title, then within the actual song you have Chimamanda reciting this amazing speech about the way we frame girls as a culture in relationship to boys.
Does Beyonce shout out “I don’t need a man!” or anything else disrespectful? Not at all. She even praises her man as helping her alongside the women in her life but the complex message of the song if still the same. What society considers ‘flawless’ and what that message really does to girls vs. what it truly means to feel flawless (happy, at peace, beautiful) and how it’s something you have to have within.
I’ve appreciated the song before but last night it really hit new tones and made me think how someone like Meryl can talk in circles gushing about loving men (in a movie about Suffragettes) while bringing NOTHING new to the table when it comes to actually discussing what she hopes for for young women struggling with their own independence and Beyonce can take an amazing step like that in comparison.
Yes to everything you both said. It’s a political movement, not a dress code.
A lot of women don’t get what it is about. I’ll admit it, I don’t even get what it is about. All these terms thrown about on the feminist threads, names mentioned, subgroups and tangents and gosh knows what else. Then I question myself. I question my friends and coworkers. Nobody I know >doesn’t< firmly believe women should be second to men based on gender. Everyone I've spoken to believes a woman should have the same rights to live, express, work, believe, feel, behave– everything as a man. So are we all feminist? I think so, but many people I talked to also don't like the term feminist. For what it's worth, for some reason, it seems many average people seem to not identify with that term. It seems it's because it has a history (true or not) of being a term connected with bra burning, misandry (a word I just learned and is not in my iPad's auto-speller).
I think it's too bad Meryl couldn't have taken a more enlightened stand and educated people about feminism. Because she didn't, I think she actually sounds completely privileged and dum. But it is what it is. She's a feminist without being a feminist, I guess.
Wealthy white woman from a privileged background doesn’t feel the need for feminism. How shocking. s/
Wealth has always allowed women to overcome barriers that affect less affluent women and families. If you’re born into privilege I’m sure equal pay for woman, maternity/family leave etc has far less impact on your life than in lower socio-economic classes. It’s also rather infuriating that she’s still parroting the 1980’s version of feminism as “unwomanly man hating” 30 years later.
This all the way. This is a story about a bunch of women who go, “Eh, mayyybe I could be treated better but I’m already making millions and living in total luxury. I don’t need absolutely equal respect. This is good enough for me.”
Meryl Streep is having a word salad stroke in front of our very eyes and no one is taking her to the dr to get this checked
Another Laugh Out Loud comment from you, QQ! I’m having a word salad right now, with avocados mmm. And trying to make sense of Meryl nowadays.
GAH, Meryl just shut up already; you sound like a moron.
Trying to resist to comment and call her a few names,trying really, really hard..
So disappointed in her.
I think the term feminism is not clearly understood. Maybe this is the issue.
Also this is a women that has had so much success and such a long and healthy career that her experiences may be quite different then thr average woman.
Well, it’s not understand by HER, that’s clear, but as it comes up over and over she could have Googled it in advance of the interviews.
Wow…I’ve lost a lot of respect for her. I thought she was somewhat intelligent but this weird episode clearly shows that she lacks any kind of critical or analytical thinking skills. Feminism does not equal man hater. It’s sad that someone, particularly with her public stature, cannot grasp this simple fact! How embarrassing.
Not taking part in ‘are you a feminist?’ trap that the media lay. Like Amy Poehler says, it’s just another way to play us off on each other. All you have to do is look at the charities Meryl supports, her 3 smart and independent daughters, her career, her friendships, her calling out Martin Scorcese for never writing a movie about women … her actions speak for themselves – just as she says.
Yeah, not taking part in the outrage.
“..her calling out Martin Scorcese for never writing a movie about women”
“Alice Doesn’t Live Here Anymore”. She should just say the words. It’s simple, really.
Oh wow, one movie!! Go Marty!!!
@Louise
Odds are she was more annoyed he didn’t make a movie for women so she could act in it, not that she was concerned about women not actually being represented. Based on her own kerfluffle during the Suffregretes press tour she tends to be all about not needing for equality between men until she’s actually suffering inequality.
Young men and women hearing her today won’t think, “Oh, right, she told off Scorcese…” They’ll just hear, “Feminism? Not me, I *like* men.”
She should say what she wants to say. You all are being hypocrites.
So judging her for her own words and actions is hypocrisy? Because we don’t judge men by their words and actions? Eesh, stop reaching.
No one is going to mentally review her life and actions, they will just listen to her words.
If she is hell bent on not falling into the media trap, then she should just laugh off the question and say, “Yes. I am.” Move on.
It’s not so hard.
I agree. She should just say she is a feminist. She certainly lives feminism as far as one can tell.
But I wonder why she doesn’t just tell them that: “I am a feminist.”
Do you really believe it’s the idea of feminism to tell other people what to say, or think? Streep made it very clear, her actions speak for themselves. She doesn’t need a label. I completely agree with her.
@ Siri
Obviously you don’t because she said “I am a humanist, I am for nice easy balance.” which is a label.
Sadly the meaning of humanist is not what she think it is and has nothing to do with equality.
I get her and know where she’s coming from. Actions and beliefs are way more important than the label.
jesus Christ you guys. It honestly would not have been a big deal if she could have said intelligently why she doesn’t take on the label feminist. Like damn. She can do the actions and refuse to take on the word and that would be fine. But falling to the propaganda and spouting this “I love men” nonsense as if anyone that takes on the label doesn’t is NOT an intelligent response. No matter how much she or her fans want to believe in the magical power of her mind. It’s a really dumb answer that falls for the anti feminist rhetoric and shows she really doesn’t give the movement in general enough thought to really understand it.
I agree, and add that saying “I am not a feminist” IS an action. Especially when coupled with “I love men.”
Sadly, I think that if was someone else, that person would be shred to pieces. She may be a great actress, but … Ignorance is a bliss. Famous people should definitely be gagged when talking about such important issues…
I wrote before and I’ll write it again: how can actress with her experience doing a film like this and not prepare herself for this sort of questions? And why din’t she studied feminism? Wasn’t that part of her job for this film? I don’t get it.
“Shred to pieces”- by whom? Furious, bossy women- exactly the ones she doesn’t want to identify with?;-)
Except labels matter like crazy. Words matter…especially during interviews…where you use MANY words to explain your perspective. Meryl’s trying so hard to make sure men know how much she adores them that any possible comments she COULD have made about feminism, intersectionality, the suffragette movement were actually pushed aside.
As an action…that speaks volumes.
But words have power, some of the most power any person has.
–Can I still claim to be an advocate of LGBT rights if I call people “fags”?
–How do I claim to be fighting for racial equality but refuse to call myself or others a “civil rights” activist, and always qualify my work with “BUT I love white people”? Or dismiss #BlackLivesMatter and keep reposting #ALL lives matter?
–Can I still claim to be fighting for women’s rights if I don’t call myself a “feminist” and always qualify my statements with with “BUT I love men”?
I think word you use and don’t use have power and meaning. Qualifying your statements about wanting equality takes away from the power of the statement. Like I want equality, but I’m a sweet good submissive girl and don’t want to be too pushy or mean to boys when asking for equality.
Good work.
From a song written for another protest movement, “It isn’t nice to block the doorway, it isn’t nice to go to jail. There are nicer ways to do it, but the nice ways always fail.”
This is an excellent post.
The whole I love men/I’m married to a man qualifier in there, etc., by Meryl boggled my mind.
Thank you. Exactly.
This whole post.
All of it.
Every word.
Excellent point.
That whole opening sentence I’m a mother, you know? And I am the mother of a son and I’m married to a man. I love men. is really what rankles the most.
Well said!
But why would you want to claim you are this, or that in the first place? Just BE that person! LIVE it! There are, obviously, too many interpretations of one little word. And it definitely, among other things, depends on one’s life experience, and generation. Words are futile. Streep understands that.
Now that everyone thinks she’s an idiot, can I stop pretending to think she’s a good actress?
I find her a little cold and mannered. Always have. Thanks!
Heh. I’ve expressed the same view here more than once and was sometimes challenged for my opinion. To be clear, I’ve enjoyed many of her perfomances, particularly her comedic turns but she’s never been stellar for me.
Yay, there are 2 of us! I prefer her comedic performances, too. I just never found her astonishing. You can see the gears moving.
She has gotten some subtle shade over the years from other women in the industry though, such as the Tina Fey/Amy Poehler joke that her roles prove that “there are still great parts in Hollywood for Meryl Streeps over 60″…
So it’s not like Hollywood doesn’t know that Meryl is untouchable and has a status above other women, but I wonder how many of them are in the voting Academy? And will this affect her chances of being nominated?
As much as actresses admire her and hold her up as the standard, there are probably plenty more who would just like to stop seeing her in the running and eclipsing other good performers every year.
I’m still annoyed she won over viola Davis with what was a pretty basic ‘Streepian’ performance.
There is only one intelligent actress, with proven mensa level IQ and that’s Geena Davis. The rest have powder puffs for brains, Meryl included.
*LOL*
Acting is pretending … ;-D
I may be blasted for this, but I wonder why we are pushing so much passion behind how actresses identify themselves and not the issues or policies of studios that are keeping gender equality from happening. Why is the issue laid down at the actresses feet and not at the powers that be and hold them accountable? What does actresses saying they are feminists actually mean when coming out does nothing to impact the rampant misogyny in Hollywood.
It’s more in the context of throwing into the discussion of feminism the declaration of her love for men and her husband was very much a head scratcher and very disappointing to me. .
@Aligoat said it better than I am.
“This need to reassert your love for men when discussing feminism is ridiculous and infuriating. If she thinks that saying “I’m a feminist” equates to “I don’t love my husband and son”, then…I don’t even know.”
Furthermore to piggyback off Jayna if you (Meryl, not you) have such troubled feelings about feminism then what motivated you to work on a movie entirely about women declaring their need for independence from men and respect as their own individual?
Except she wants to play both sides of the issue. She wants to be sweet and approachable Meryl who doesn’t need any feminism while also being tough strong Meryl who acts in a feminist movie and makes (more) money.
I think Meryl is all about Meryl and has always been.
Meryl should just call herself what she really is – a Merylist.
(Streepism = A movement that’s all about Meryl above all other women and focuses on Meryl first.)
Seriously, the Golden Globes and the Academy should just invent a new category, the Meryl Streep Award. And it will go every year to (you guessed it!) Meryl, of course, for whichever performance of hers was better than the others.
But how oh how will the voters choose?! Or maybe since only Meryl merits this, she’ll be the sole member allowed to vote.
So meta-Meryl!
what’s wrong with people? is it that hard to understand? feminism is so NOT about hating men. it’s about women being valued for what they are and female qualities being valued and cherished in both men and women. why does everything have to be about men? poor men,poor men, feminists hate them. that’s such a stupid idea.
I was just commenting with my dad (who’s 67 years old) that there’s always these comments : I’m not a feminist, because I love men”. His answer, jokingly was: “Maybe she’s confusing feminism with lesbianism. ” And then he said: “Of course feminists are not against men. Absurd idea.” We talked about how these famous people have money and time to educate themselves and he stated that some people just like being ignorant.
Your dad sounds awesome.
Show your dad how to comment on this board. He’d be a great contributor!
I know in the case of Suffragate this questions seems appropriate, but I dont get the reason to ask every single famous female about feminism. Especially because it is a serious matter, with brilliant people researching and making studies about it, I feel its disrespectful for them.
Celebrities usually get it wrong, from the “I’m not feminist, I love men” to the “I’m such a feminist, I show my body because empowerment”…
What is going on on that promotion for that movie? Certainly they have some kind of publicist for that movie who advises them?
Do actresses pretend to be not feminists because that would have negative consequences in the movie industry which is very male-dominated in the upper echelons?
The only thing that can reasonably annoy men about feminism is that the word describing the aspiration for equality of men and women is derived from a word that means “woman”. And that is petty. Reasonable but petty.
Seriously…with ALL the other issues this film has you have one of the leads refusing to actually label herself a feminist and using weak excuses like her love of men.
This film is a flaming car tire surrounded by gasoline.
Oh well. No love lost.
Seriously, me either.
She lived through second, third, and now fourth wave feminism. Each time the movement takes on a different meaning and she’s been pretty consistent in her beliefs throughout. So she doesn’t want to label herself a feminist? Her actions do speak louder than any label could.
As soon as more women understand that, there’s a real chance for equality.
Amen!
“I’m married to a man. I love men.” Great. Now tell me what that has to do with feminism. And how does feminism – or simply the current reading of realpolitik feminism – “alienate” young women from the people they love?
Here’s my take on what she is saying: She is saying that today’s feminists are more of a man-hating breed of women. Women that refuse to have anything “man” in their lives because they can do it on their own, they’re strong enough on their own, etc.. When I was growing up, the feminist movement wasn’t what it is today. It used to be about female empowerment, being able to raise a family on your own if you had to, hold down a job and be equally respected with the same rights as all the men in the workplace; it was about being able to have sex like men and being free to love as men love and with birth control! It was about getting govt and society OUT of their lives so they could live it on their own terms, like men. Today’s feminism is not like that. Today’s feminism is more of a man-hating movement than anything else. It’s been overtaken by rabid females that think men get all the good stuff and women get squat and that’s not true. So they do things like free bleeding, free the nipple, free peeing, stupid, mindless garbage in the name of feminism even though they have NO idea how it pertains to feminism – and neither does anyone else! It’s become a lifestyle of hating men so much they want nothing to do with them. Today’s feminists do things like getting a dog instead of a boyfriend, choosing to abort their baby if it’s a boy or choosing a designer girl baby to make sure there is no boy born to them. Not to mention they’re constant need to get naked “because feminism” or screw you for slut shaming me, excuse me while I dress like a hooker and don’t you DARE look at my body while I do it” mentality. It has gotten so out of hand that today’s feminists ( the rabid ones) have forgotten what the feminist movement was all about in the first place and I am glad to see Meryl have the balls to say it. Men are not our enemy. Men and women complement each other, they need each other and there’s nothing wrong with admitting it.
I’m sorry but I disagree that today’s feminism is about hating men. All what you’ve said about feminism is my perception of it. ” It used to be about female empowerment, being able to raise a family on your own if you had to, hold down a job and be equally respected with the same rights as all the men in the company; it was about being able to have sex like men and being free to love as men love and with birth control” – THIS is today’s feminism. What’s with the hatred towards men?
No, it’s YOUR perception of today’s feminism.
Then it’s my perception, my 67 year old parent, all my friends’ perception and also of my 12, 13, 14 and 15 year old students… Because that’s how they see it, but then again, perhaps it’s not a time problem but actually a place problem…. (I’m not american, didn’t deal with Limbaugh’s crap…)
@Solanacaea (Nighty): Yes, I’m sure it has (also) to do with the circumstances you are in. Historically, and geographically, so to speak. And yes, that “Limbaugh crap” did a lot of harm. Plus, it became ‘fashionable’ to call yourself a feminist without understanding any deeper context, and talk about it from a “victim” point of view to “fight” men, or belittle them. And it’s true, f.e. in Europe, you experience this less.
I have to agree. Feminism today isn’t man-hating, at best you could stick that to 90’s feminism which proves the whole point. Movements change and opinions vary, clinging to the worst of any issue is weak at best. I haven’t stopped being a proud supporter of the Black Lives Matter movement because of a few bad apples.
What would that say about my actual motivations and concerns if I abandoned a movement that addresses specific faults in society that damage and injure others to cater to the portion of society that is already considered revered.
Meryl is so busy cooing how much she adores men who wouldn’t mention her once if asked to discuss their own plans for success and advancement.
Also, I’m sorry I tried to keep to an open mind but your last paragraph is ridiculous. You actually use a woman getting a dog instead of a boyfriend as a fault of feminism? I honestly think sometimes people desperately want to jump ship on something so as soon as they hear something negative they’re off the boat and running.
You hear one ridiculous or insane story about feminists aborting a baby if it’s a boy (a story btw that reeks of being false) and that’s your logic for condemning today’s feminism? Right.
I’m simply going by things I have read, things I have seen on TV, heard come out of my daughter’s mouth and her friends on instagram, etc.. And yes, some of the stories are ridiculous and insane but they happened and they happened in the name of that person’s view of feminism. I am not saying all of today’s feminists are like that, I am saying that the feminist movement is no longer what it used to be. It’s all about man-hating, man-bashing, man’s fault for everything and thinking that they are so oppressed here in America when they don’t realize what true oppression is.
“Today’s feminists do things like getting a dog instead of a boyfriend, choosing to abort their baby if it’s a boy or choosing a designer girl baby to make sure there is no boy born to them.”
I find it amusing that you would lump all of these actions together as if getting a pet is as equally atrocious as aborting a baby because it’s not one’s preferred gender….and that’s to say nothing about how inaccurate that sentence is, and all of your comments above really.
So where’s the proof of these things you’ve heard and read?
Because a large segment of the population has this nasty habit of believing every single thing even if it’s so clearly set as bait to trap the gullible.
On one hand you say you’re not claiming all of today’s feminists are like your negative stereotype and then on the other go right back to claiming the entire modern feminist movement is your negative stereotype.
So apparently you’re not too interested in actually researching what the ‘good’ feminists are doing among all the Instagram posts that are absolutely 100% not troll bait made by MRA’s.
Hey, it’s Texasgurl again! Here to drive everyone crazy with her nonsensical comments about women in ‘Murica. Funny, since I doubt she’s ever even been outside of Texas.
Seriously, Texasgurl, wouldn’t it make more sense then for women (and men) to take back the meaning of feminism from those who have hijacked it – and explain very simply what it really means to most of us now?
Just because fringe groups have taken it on as means to do whatever the eff they want, instead of for the benefit of all women, doesn’t make it true. I mean, let’s say you’re a Christian (or Jew or Muslim…), does that mean you believe in and support acts of hatred or terrorism by those who claim they’re committing such acts in the name of religion and God?!
Sorry, I have dogs and currently no boyfriend, haha, but I’m not man-hating or going on any slutwalks – Feminist does not mean Feminazi! ERA = voting rights, equal education and employment opportunities, plus equal pay for all women.
@Texasgurl, then my dad is a feminist who hates men because he got a dog…(cinic mode…)
@Texasgurl: So women should not be slut shamed for having sex “like a man”, but they should be slut shamed if they don’t dress modestly? It’s ironic how there are some people who are on team “Ladies, you can be a little sexy and show a little skin, but you better not be sexual or have it before we say, or else you’re less than”, and then you have the people who are team “You can have the sex, but don’t you dare dress or present in a way that can be seen as sexy or revealing, otherwise you’re less than”. Neither argument is progress. Both promote the idea that the more a body has been seen or touched, the less whole the woman attached to that body is as a human being. Both base human worth on conformity to traditional values like chastity, and that’s a system that comes from a patriarchal conservative society. How is women challenging and rejecting that system an example of feminists hating men? Also, sex workers, like transgender people, are already marginalized groups of people, so using them as insults does not promote equality.
For once I kind of get what she meant by this statement. Everybody is talking about gender equality and that’s wonderful. Now what? Are we going to keep talking? Are we going to keep asking every actress that opens a movie if they’re feminist or not? Of course most of them will say “sure I am” and go on on saying some dumb variation on what feminism means to them. Some others, just a handful, like Cotillard will find the question obnoxious and will give a “rebel” answer: “I’m not”. Or like Meryl’s: Sure I am, but just lets show it with actions instead of statements again and again.
What’s your take on this article ladies?
http://time.com/3588846/time-apologizes-feminist-word-poll-robin-morgan/
I really enjoyed reading about her own personal journey to coming to a true understanding of feminism. I think Jo Mama made an amazing point yesterday about how we’re in the midst of this cultural struggle and shift and now that’s bringing a lot of tension and discussion to the forefront.
It’s a great article that articulates exactly what women have endured and fought for over the last hundred years and what we have achieved. That is the definition of feminism. I find all of the different feminism labels a bit much but hey, if it makes her happy…lol. Also, the only thing I have an issue with are the “full reproductive rights” as I believe the father should have the right to decide whether or not his child gets to be born ( I’ll sit here and wait for heads to explode 😉 lol ) Otherwise, pretty good article.
Since the man is not the one whose body has to carry it doesn’t make any sense for the father to have the final word on whether or not an abortion happens. And that’s not me being biased because I’m a woman. If men were the ones whose bodies had to bear the risks of pregnancy, I’d be saying women don’t get the final word on abortion.
Ugh, I don’t get all the pearl clutching over here since she’s clearly a feminist in her actions:
planetforward.ca/blog/meryl-streep-donates-iron-lady-paycheck-womens-history-museum/
variety.com/2015/film/news/meryl-streep-women-screenwriters-lab-1201475337/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/reliable-source/wp/2015/06/23/actress-meryl-streep-sends-a-letter-to-each-and-every-member-of-congress/
She should continue her advocacy work and her performances as strong/interesting/complex women speak for themselves and leave the hand-wringing over labels to the basics.
The way people are freaking out over here (and other parts of the internet) you’d swear she proclaimed women should get back to the kitchen.
#ShakingMyDamnHead
I thought the way she started of her answer was kind of dumb/weird. I think it’s the fact that she said she loves men therefore she can’t be feminist is what might have inspired the most ire. Streep seems to be perpetuating a stereotype in the first part of her answer and potentially a fallacy of some kind, and that’s probably what is annoying people.
I’m not offended she doesn’t identify as feminist just like I wasn’t offended when Kayley Cuoco said she isn’t feminist, but I think the way she answered may be responsible for people’s reaction rather than her actually not identifying with the word. The first part of Streep’s answer sounds less coherent to me than Kayley Cuoco’s, and Streep is more educated than Cuoco, which makes the way she answered all the more weird. I think could at least get Cuoco’s perspective because she seemed to be answering from a more personal standpoint rather than claiming knowledge, whereas Streep sort of seems to be claiming the latter (i.e “I love men. And it’s not what feminism has meant historically” ). Maybe the fact she has to reinforce she likes men that makes it also seem like she’s pandering to them before giving her answer.
Agreed. Why let one small comment ruin everything else that’s been accomplished or achieved? It only takes one “oh shit” to ruin a thousand “atta boys”
Agree.
Absolutely agree. And like I said above, I wonder how many of Meryl’s pro-woman initiatives in the past sparked as much coverage and Internet commentary as this most recent remark of hers. People get their knickers in a twist over a quote nowadays while little attention is paid to real deeds.
I don’t think she understands what feminism is. And thinking it’s ok to go around promoting a movie that deals with the subject, without doing a little homework is not very smar. Which is what she may be. Maybe we expect too much of the actors and actresses. Maybe the woman has her limits.
This whole development is so disappointing. I wish she would just STFU already OR walk back to the beginning of this idiocy and start over.
I think she drinks too much
When Ariana Grande can answer the feminist question with more elegance and comprehension than Meryl Streep, we have a problem.
Jennifer Aniston did too.
Are women from Streep’s generation less likely to identify as feminist? For some reason, I though it would be the opposite.
Maybe the HeForShe campaign championed by Emma Watson isn’t just meant to appeal to men but also women like Streep.
In my experience, yes, they are less likely. I think part of that is because feminism looked a lot different when women of Meryl’s age group were young. 2nd Wave Feminism was, generally, a lot more hostile to men, to women who wanted to be domestic or stay home or be mothers, and traditional lifestyles. So it could be fairly alienating for a lot of women. This was the generation that had thinkers who argued that all sex is rape, that all men hate women, the Scum Manifesto, etc. Remember “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle?” Yeah, that idea.
The 3rd Wave is far more hospitable because it, by and large, recognizes that women and men tend to be different and that’s not barrier to equality. It’s also less hostile to traditional gender roles – just as long as they’re freely chosen. A 3rd wave feminist would not react so badly to a Stay at home mom, provide that’s what the SAHM really wants and she’s happy. The 2nd Wave had Robin Morgan arguing that Home Economics was the den of the enemy because it promoted domestic skills (yes, that really happened).
I think it comes down to femininity. The 2nd Wave had a lot of people who thought femininity needed to be stamped out for women to succeed. The 3rd wave has a lot less of that. Most young feminists I know get that you can wear dresses and makeup and care about your appearance and want to be a wife and mother and you’re not a bad feminist for that stuff.
Still not surprised.
Somebody get this woman a dictionary, stat!
Or just google the words, for goodness sake! I mean, Meryl has no problem identifying as a humanist, though that also has had different meanings and philosophies throughout history.
How much research did Meryl really do for this role? Or is just mailing in her performance, then showing up for promotion, all the Big M has to do nowadays…
Oh, sigh. Meryl needs to stop pandering to the idiots who have subverted the term “feminism”. Feminism is simply the tenet that women have equal value to men. All the rest is just an ax to grind from one camp or another.
YES!
oh man I need to quit the internet or my blood pressure will be off the charts. These celebs get dumber everyday. Please just make movies and shut your trap.
I am all about Meryl Streep. She is queen of the screen. But, I am so sick of this same conversation and no one making an godda*n sense. Seriously. It’s okay to say “hey, I really have no f*cking clue, so why don’t we table this conversation until I do.” that’s what I would do… instead these people run off with any question and do their best to pull as many SAT words out of the air, put them together and throw them at a dart board in hopes of making a real point.
Enough is enough.
Man, I am on one today!
With statements like that she is only helping to spread the dumb idea that feminism means hating men. Why doesn’t she correct it instead of distancing herself from it? If more people proudly embraced the word and defined it’s true meaning, then the people who want to smear feminism wouldn’t win. It’s only a negative word if you make it that.
Meryl Streep doesn’t truly care about her fellow women in Hollywood because she wants to be the one with all their roles. She would rather things continue the way they are with the only older woman working being her. That’s why she supported Russell Crowe’s statements.
Amen. That’s what irked me so much. I barely commented on the other thread where she declared herself a humanist. I just said that’s her buzz word these days. She used it in paying tribute to a male playwright who died.just recently.
It’s this thread I did react so strongly because of her comments where she felt compelled to declare her love for men, she’s married to a man, a mother of a son, etc., when talking about feminism and declaring herself a humanist. It still boggles my mind that someone like Meryl would feel the need to declare her love for men in that discussion, which feeds into that feminists are man-haters..
Hmmm….the “Queen Bee” syndrome. You might be on to something here.
“…researchers have hypothesized that queen bee syndrome may be developed by women who have achieved high workplace positions within their respective fields. By opposing any attempts of subordinates of their own sex to advance in career paths, women with queen bee syndrome hope to fit in with their male counterparts by adhering to the cultural stigmas placed on gender in the workplace. Belittling female subordinates allows “queen bees” the opportunity to show more masculine qualities, which they see as more culturally valuable and professional.
By showing these supposedly important masculine qualities, queen bees seek to further legitimize their right to be in important professional positions as well as attaining job security by showing commitment to their professional roles…”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_bee_syndrome
This description seems to fit her behaviors to a T.
Sigh. Meryl, I am disappointed.
Well, even Vanessa Redgrave recently said the first and foremost role of a woman is being a mother. Thus negating all other roles a woman may choose to play, which may or may not include motherhood.
And from Ms Redgrave too!
Maybe as they age, these once super-strong women are turning into their great-grand-mothers.
Sad.
She has lost a daughter, so it might have something to do with that …
I still find it pretty offensive and reductive, even though I understand her pain (I do, really).
I think it’s her age. She lost a daughter. And she wasn’t a very good mother. Her political activism and obsessions (Workers Revolutionary Party) and career taking her away for long periods of time was first and foremost. Natasha talked about it in interviews, the loneliness and not in some exquisite mansion either, raised by nannies. Her mom was always broke and her father wasn’t, two different lifestyles back and forth. She just wasn’t around much for her children. The girls forgave her and loved her and had a strong relationship as adults and she’s a great grandmother. I think she’s close to her son also. But the guilt she feels I’m sure is still there.
This.
http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/vanessa-redgrave-before-i-didn-t-care-at-all-now-i-find-myself-thinking-what-a-miracle-everything-is-a2954866.html
But I have to admit I, too, was rather surprised by this: “Even if you’ve got a job you love and a husband you adore, once you have children that’s what you live for. It’s the function of being a woman.”
Sorry, I wanted to put the link in the first time, didn’t work.
@Siri, thanks. She never lived for her children when they were young. Natasha said she was gone, gave all of her money to the Workers Revolution Party and the Marxist group, and when home the house was filled with meetings with other members of the organization, consumed with that. It’s why Natasha had an aversion to politics after grown.
This part stunned me in that interview you posted. I guess everybody on here needs to leave all the young pop stars alone for not embracing being a feminist since Meryl nor someone like Vanessa support the term either. If they are hung up on feeling the need to declare love for men, men this, men that, we’re different from men when talking about feminism, why are the younger generation bashed? LOL
“Redgrave surprises me by saying she has never been a feminist. “Women are different from men and that’s where women can be stupid because they don’t acknowledge it. It seems weird to me that suddenly there’s a torment about women wanting to say they’re the same as men — well, have the same rights, yes, and of course there are still things that women have to fight for and negotiate for, rather than just shriek about. But we’re child-bearers primarily, and we are the weaker sex, and once we’ve given birth to children our life is of necessity bound to them. I wouldn’t advocate it being any other way.”
That’s odd, considering Natasha was far closer to her father because she shared so much with him and was so bound to him, and why him dying of AIDS devastated Natasha and her sister, who took care of him. It was after losing him as young adults they became closer to her. I didn’t realize being a devoted and loving mother was exclusive to having feminist ideals. Julianne Moore, a devoted mother and wife, has no problem saying she’s “absolutely a feminist” and a feminist is someone who wants gender equality and says that’s important for all of us.
It’s funny how her statements belie how she lived her life during her children’s upbringing. And the comment, “rather than just shriek.”
@Jayna: You are right, it belies the way she lived, and it’s sad somehow. It also shows a lot of unconscious guilt, and regrets, as if she so wanted to turn back time to be the mother she most certainly never was, but perhaps now THINKS she was. The odd thing is that she generalizes it for all women. In many ways, it’s indeed disappointing.
Wasn’t Vanessa Redgrave sort of famous for doing lots of radical political activities in the Sixties and Seventies? Those kinds of commitments don’t generally leave a lot of time for making it to soccer games, birthday parties, and parent-teacher meetings…methinks that when her children were young, she was away a lot either working or going to protests. And now she is in her eighties and one of her daughters is gone. Sounds a lot like regret to me.
It’s nonsense because she disagrees with you?
I fully agree with Meryl. Feminism nowadays is not what feminism historically meant. It’s becoming less about fighting for equal rights, and more stupidity like free the nipple or dyeing armpit hair. It’s dumb. Feminism has taken a sharp, radical turn thanks to young white women and real feminists like Meryl aren’t having any of it. They will still fight for women’s rights, but they will not stand for the feminazism of today’s feminists.
@ moon
Sorry, but you come off as extremely misguided and prejudiced. Good luck in life.
How am I misguided?
Listen – I firmly believe in women’s rights. But I honestly don’t know what feminism means or stands for nowadays. And I think we need people within the ranks to dissent and speak up, because many strong educated women are feeling alienated – we don’t want feminism to start turning into a parody and undo what previous generations have fought for.
Only in your head it turns into a parody.
Stop blaming white people for everything that is supposed to be wrong. It is because of white people that the Western civilization is what it is – the greatest and most civilized places to live in.
Meryl Streep will not identify as a feminist, because she doesn’t want to rock the boat. Everything she has career-wise has been given to her by men in power. And she has been given a lot and continuously.
She does not want to alienate or anger these men who can easily discard her.
@liluuuuu …..yeah white people gave everyone the right to vote huh? White people respected all people and never started any genocides and benefitted off the slave labor of the cultures and people. We must all bow down to white peoples for what they’ve given us.
My god. Look this is just as much an obtuse comment as Meryl’s. And it’s a LARGE part of the reason why a lot of woc have a difficult time taking on the label feminist. Which is actually a valid reason for not wanting to identify as feminist. Not this backstabbing queens “I love men” nonsense.
@liluuu: Why would you bring up races on this subject? I actually think you just proved the validity of @moon’s argument.
I think you just stepped into the wrong decade.
Yeah, I’m all for this dragging. I appreciate Meryl’s actions, but words are powerful. So when someone in her position claims to support feminist issues and then go on repeating the common attacks against feminist, there is a cause for outrage. It’s perpetuating an insidious attack that leaks into every argument against feminism. Want Equal Pay? Well, too bad. Women won’t get married if they can do things themselves.
I understand that what she said was a bit dumb, I mean humanism has more to do with rationality than with equality, and the real meaning of feminism has nothing to do with men hate, but at the same time I don’t get the outrage nor why anyone would hate her or call her dumb. We all said stupid things sometimes. What I mean is that there is no need to rebut a stupid statement with offenses against the person. She is not guilty of any crime after all. Also although I consider myself a feminist, I agree that actions are more important than labels.
Meryl is from a different generation. Maybe feminism means something else to her, something that connotes strident hatred of men. Whatever, this is a nonsense debate if no one has defined their terms.
I don’t really care what she identifies as and I think her point about actions rather than holding to a word makes sense, but I’m surprised she’s so inarticulate, given her age, career accolades, and education ( Vassar-educated and on every extra-curricular activity in high school, including probably the debate club)). I was shocked by this too when she had to answer the question about Russell Crowe. I sometimes need other people to translate Meryl-speak for me. and that’s what I find most bewildering rather than whether she identifies as feminist.
She is not a feminist, because men have been very very nice toward her for all her life.
Especially in Hollywood. She is the only over 50 actress who works regularly in Hollywood which is an industry that is run by white and Jewish men. Not women. Why should she identify as a feminist? She has no beef with men. She doesn’t need to stand up for equality. She gets the lion’s share from men who control her entire career and keep her relevant.
Otherwise, she is just an actress.
It is the public’s fault for taking these over-hyped and overrated bimbos this seriously. They are only actors – it is not even a real job. She is a vacuous woman who also happens to be old now. This is in part a ‘senior citizen moment’ for her.
Wow, this is spot-on. (I apologize for teasing you on the Ben/Jon thread, but your comments were so funny, I couldn’t resist the snark!) You have pretty much summed up Meryl’s status above other women and her relationship to Hollywood here, liluuu.
This is exactly right – Meryl Streep is not a feminist.
She is a Queen Bee.
This is an absurd argument. Men have been nice to her, so she can’t be a feminist? Aside from that she’s NOT the only actress over 50 working regularly in HW (Julianne Moore, Tilda Swinton, Laura Linney, Susan Sarandon…take a look at their filmographies), she’s not “just an actress”, but happens to be a mother, and a wife as well. She also happens to be 69, which does mean some life experience. So why wouldn’t she be allowed to talk about the subject? She was asked, by the way. Dismissing her opinion as a ‘senior citizen moment’ not only shows quite a bit of arrogance on your part, but is also mirroring the divisive nature of some strands of the modern day feminist movement.
Society needs to stop putting stock into actors… And into the issues and harassment that women in regular jobs face
Years ago I was in the audience for a panel discussion presented by the gender studies department at my school. I was taking a gender studies class and our class attended together. One of panelists said: “Raise your hand if you identify as a feminist.” Well over half the audience did NOT raise their hand, an audience made up mostly of gender studies majors!!!! The panelist then said, “You see, even in this feminist-friendly room, full of people actively working for gender equality, the majority are afraid to be associated with that term.” I was blown away, and so was my professor. I had raised my hand. Meryl has been pretty pro-woman in her actions, but I bet she feels similarly to the people that were a part of that crowd. But I didn’t expect her to go so far as to say “But I love men!” Oof, Disappointment…
Nothing against Meryl (I like her), but she is a gifted actress on screen AND in real life. I believe it was Warhol (or maybe Allen) who perceived that her innate shallowness is what (ironically or otherwise) projects immense depth while she’s acting. In March 1978, the love of her life, the late great actor John Cazale, died of brain cancer (Streep was his fiancee and devoted to him at his deathbed). In September 1978, Meryl married the next love of her life, sculptor Don Gummer, her brother Harry’s friend. I am being judgmental (forgive me for that), but anyone who loses a beloved fiance in the spring and marries a newly beloved fiance in the fall of the same year is likely not someone of substantial emotional or psychological depth (unless, of course, it is an arranged marriage, which in Meryl’s case, it was not). Meryl and Don were already friends, but still. I’ve known people who have lost loved ones and it may take six months before they can face removing their loved ones’ belongings due to the emotional pain and distress of the permanent loss and parting. If you want an intelligent, articulate, bum-kicking feminist/humanist, her name is Jodie Foster.
Meryl Streep will not identify as a feminist, because she doesn’t want to rock the boat for herself. Everything she has career-wise has been given to her by men in power.
And she has been given a lot and continuously.
She does not want to alienate or anger these movie-industry people in power who can easily discard her. She will naturally be timid, half-assed and docile when talking about gender equality. I think she knows submission and obedience to what Hollywood is and how it is run has been the key for her life-long and unparalleled professional success.
The men, who run these studios, simply love, favor and spare her. She won’t muddy the waters when it comes to her relationships with men in power who made her rich and well-respected.
I’m confused that people think there’s one definition of feminism.
What a shame. I used to respect her.
I’ve always found Meryl Streep to be a bit overrated & self-congratulatory and kind of a dope, and I’m really tired of seeing her in every over-50 role. Is there NO ONE ELSE WHO CAN PLAY THOSE ROLES?! I’m soooo tired of her!
I just asked my husband if he is a feminist, his answer: “I believe in equality and depending on how you define feminism I am a feminist, yes.”
If he can answer that way, why is it so hard for a woman like Meryl to answer that question? If you feel cagey about the negative connotations people have given feminism then answer yes with a caveat, “yes I am a feminist according to the dictionary definition of the word feminist (someone who believes in the social, political and economical equality between men and women)”. According to that definition I would hope that any man that Meryl loves defines himself as a feminist as well, esp her husband.
She is completely out of touch and needs to sit down and STFU. She has this nice, La La land life in CT and has no way of knowing what really goes on in the world. Has she ever worked a corporate job? One where your male colleagues are paid and treated better? Yes an idiot.
Jesus, hold your panties! Feminism does not mean promote hating men at least she’s saying you don’t have to hate men to be a feminist. Anyway, the word feminist has been completely twisted in such a asinine way sort of like the word hero.
Meryl is not allowed to talk anymore. Not even to merylsplain herself.