Joanna Lumley is probably best known at Patsy Stone in Absolutely Fabulous. She was also a famous model in the 1960s, which she then parlayed into a successful theater, film and television acting career. If you’re doing the math, she’s 70 years old now. And like many 70-year-olds, Joanna Lumley thinks the younger kids have gone soft. She thinks that younger women especially have gotten too sensitive about one thing in particular: catcalling/wolf-whistling/street harassment. Lumley is all for a good wolf-whistle and she thinks every woman should be fine with it too.
“How can wolf whistling be offensive to women? It’s a compliment,” says velvet-voiced Joanna Lumley, stoutly. The morning we speak there’s a report in the news about the pet names and casual sexism which offend women. And Joanna’s having none of it. “They’re saying ‘Cor you look all right, darlin.’ What’s wrong with that?”
One-time model, presenter, campaigner, actress – most recently reprising Ab Fab’s fabulous Patsy Stone for the big-screen – Joanna, OBE, is far from a saccharine “sweetie darling”. This is a practical, no-nonsense lady who sugar-coats nothing. In the 60s, when she was a young model, people were made of sterner stuff, she insists.
“We were tougher in those days. You knew someone would whistle in the street and you weren’t insulted. We have become more sensitive flowers nowadays, people are very offended by everything. When I was modelling photographers were much ruder, they’d say ‘You look frightful, what’s the matter with you?’ ‘You look podgy, you look fat as a pig’. It was good-natured banter, you kind of got on with it, it didn’t upset you.”
Again, remember that she’s 70 years old! She’s hip in a lot of ways, but women who have lived through decades of entrenched, institutional sexism do tend to have something resembling Stockholm Syndrome when it comes to casual sexual harassment. That being said, I’ve never been jazzed about the idea that women need to come together and fight some major battle against catcalling when there are much more vital concerns. Now, some of it – perhaps much of it – is legitimately harassment, especially when it’s men following women on the street or men physically moving into your personal space. That’s wrong and you’re not being a “sensitive flower” for feeling unsafe, victimized or creeped out. But if you’re walking down the street and some construction dude whistles at you? That’s not the same thing. Is it wrong that I feel that way? Men sometimes honk at me and I take it as a compliment, not harassment (then again, they’re not following me home). ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Photos courtesy of WENN.
I think a whistle is fine? Is that bad?
But once the guy starts getting close, or God for bit touching, or exposing himself, then yes, that’s a problem. And it’s illegal. Like, a guy hitting in you in a bar is fine, even if he is an ass about it. But once you say no, it is very much not ok for him to touch you or anything else. Big line there.
I also have a problem with guys yelling out publicly explicit comments, but they can probably claim free speech. Not illegal to be an a$$hole.
No stranger has the right to judge my appearance, in a negative OR positive way. Period. Who asked their opinion? So: No catcalling, no honking (Honking??? Seriously???). Compliments are for friends and aquaintances only and the intimacy of the relationship sets the bar for the intimacy of the compliment. So, unless you’re my boyfriend, I don’t want to know if you think I am hot.
Exactly. I don’t know you. Why would you feel the need to express youropinion of my appearance to me?
“No stranger has the right to judge my appearance, in a negative OR positive way. Period. Who asked their opinion”
Yet we do it all the time to celebrities on this site. No it’s not to their face but we are still judging their appearance, negative or positive.
That being said a whistle is fine but some men go over board with the cat calling. It can border on being uncomfortable.
Well good luck with making that stick. There is nothing in the constitution about cat calling so there is nothing giving or taking the “right to cat call.
@Mike-
Wow.
Why are you here?
Not bad, I agree with everything you said. It’s the mating dance. There’s a way to do it with style and there’s a way to do it cheesily, grossly, frighteningly, etc.
I had a guy once walk past me, stop dead in his tracks, and come back and say, “May I make a compliment? You look amazing.” He was polite, and considerate, and he made my day. (A pretty, girly dress in a vivid color and my favorite black Victorian jacket FTW! I love that thing.) THAT was a genuine compliment. The thing that separates compliments or light-hearted flirtation from harassment is consideration for the recipiant. Guys who shout at you about body parts that are usually always covered, or what they would like to do to them, are saying you’re not human.
One time a guy hollered at me that he “would like a piece of that!” I didn’t even think before I hollered back, “You can’t handle a whole woman, loser!” The guys he was with all laughed.
Oh, and guys who stand up for women when this goes on? My heroes.
a compliment can be nice, if it’s done politely and expecting nothing back.
Right. The difference between a catcall and a compliment boils down to intent and respect. When I was in college waiting at a train station in Chicago, I had an older man come up to me and quietly and politely say “Excuse me Miss I don’t mean to bother you but you have the most beautiful legs I have ever seen”. Then he and I both went on our separate ways. Was it a little awkward? Yes. Did he mean to harm or humilate? No. He sincerely meant to give a young lady a compliment and he did it in a respectful manner. Do I still think about that compliment on bad self esteem days? Absolutely.
Five years later even walking in a downtown suburb with my husband, I may get guys hollering out of car windows (No I don’t want no scrub), or using innuendos or nasty gestures. Is that intended to make me feel safe, complimented, beautiful, respected? Hell no. It’s a domination and disrespect issue, not just for me but my husband as well. It is meant to make someone feel awkward and degraded in public, all for the sole pleasure and entertainment of the person (and their friends) doing it. And therein lies the difference. Both are awkward but one has respect and the other does not. It’s a shame that too many can’t, or don’t care to, learn that difference.
@itchy Your outfit does sound amazing and I love your comeback.
Superb retort. My daughter displays a rigid middle finger like a flag at full mast without even looking at the perp! Won’t even deign to make eye contact.
This is exactly the difference.
One is really nice and sweet, one is creepy and gross.
Itchyandweird, your response about certain men ‘not being able to handle a whole woman’ is brilliant. Must borrow.
Perfectly summed up.
It depends on the culture/ social meaning of whistling/ social contract. I grew up in Russia. Whistling is not OK. Direct looks are not OK. Smiling is Ok. Asking what time it is and trying to chat up is OK, as long as it is polite and not pushy.
But Russia is a big country and in some regions men are rather pushy. They would come up to you and start talking about how beautiful you are , or stare very directly. And it is also the areas where women are treated more like property / objects than in Russia’s big cities which are more progressive.
I think Joanna was just talking about whistling and a tame comment like “you’re hot” not sexual assault and harassment. I think there’s a big difference although some don’t like any comment at all.
A spontaneous, “you’re hot” is intrusive and objectifying, which is meant to dehumanize and alter the balance of power in the harasser’s favor.
Not always. When most normal people describe someone as hot, they mean to say that person is attractive, not to dehumanize them. But it definitely can be said to intimidate someone, make them embarrassed, or get laughs from friends. I think manners-wise though when people are in public with someone face-to-face “You’re hot” is probably not one of the smartest thing to say to a stranger, because while some people might take it as a compliment or invitation to flirt, it could also just cause social awkwardness or discomfort.
Agree to disagree.
Men who are overwhelmed by a woman’s beauty, so to speak, typically express it in ways that aren’t catcalling. Men who catcall, even in a way that’s seemingly benign, do so because they genuinely think that a woman in public is fair game for domination, intimidation, etc. Lots of women have had the experience of a rejected man immediately doing a 180 once rejected (“you’re just a fugly s**** anyways!!!”), and I think that I-deserve-this dynamic is in play with street harassment, much more so than the fantasy that a guy is so swept away by your attractiveness that he can’t hold it in. #LP’stwocents
Amen to all you said, LP!
I agree. Catcalling isnt intended to compliment whatever she may think. Its intended to objectify and demean. To bring you down a peg for being attractive and yet unattainable. If he thought you were attainable, he would have walked up to you and attempted to flirt with you. He knows he cant have you but has to remind you that your appearance pleases him like a jester pleases a king. If you watch carefully, theres also usually a difference in socio-economic status between the catcaller and the callee, thats not a coincidence.
Exactly. Why don’t people get this? Catcalling has nothing to do with you and everything to do with the guy (and his ego and need for domination like you said). Just how rape is not about sex and it’s about power. I cannot believe we still have to explain this. I am not for public consumption. I don’t want a whistle, a comment or anything else because it forces you into an exchange. Are there guys that strike up a convo with genuiness? Sure but if I don’t want to talk to you I won’t.
@Nicole YASSSSSSSSSSS.
I have gotten much better over the years, but was victimized by a rather well-known predator in the fashion industry in my late teens and EARLY 20s when I modeled, and the trauma has never left my thoughts. Interaction with men has been challenging ever since. I have more good days than bad, now, almost 10 years later. There are days and weeks that go by when I don’t feel like my experiences define me. But then something will happen to force my hand in to situations that I can’t easily get out of with men. Catcalling is a HUGE trigger. Catcalling, whistles, anything… I don’t want the attention. I don’t owe you (men) ANY of my time if I don’t want. So, just, STOP.
Amen, Nicole. Like the internet sez, “I can’t believe I still have to protest this crap.”
This.
yes to all of this!
thank you.
Jesus. YES thank you……I’m floored that some women actually find that flattering.
Yes I agree! I just want to walk down the street without being judged. I don’t think that’s too much to ask. And being catcalled at and whistled, is being judged. Even if you buy the fallacy that it’s a ”compliment”, it is still bullshit.
didn’t like the honks,, ppsstt, hey baby or looking at me as if they just got out of jail when I was in my twenties and don’t like it now.
Exactly, it’s a form of objectifying.
I never thought about it like that but thinking about it now I think there is a lot of truth in what you said there
Exactly!
I love her but she belongs to an other generation.
I’m her generation and my experiences completely contradict hers. Catcalling is harassment and always has been. It never felt good to me. She just has been in jobs where she wants strangers to pay attention to her, huge difference from many other women.
ITA. It feels gross.
Makes sense. If you want and enjoy attention from strangers, people bothering you on the street may seem like a positive thing.
As someone who uses the street as merely a way to get from point A to point B, having strangers approach me in any way is completely unwanted. To me, the sidewalk is not like a bar, where people have a reasonable expectation that the person they’re approaching may be receptive to interaction. So it’s annoying and imo rude when using the sidewalk is taken as a signal of availability for interaction. Walking briskly away does not work, because people go ahead and walk with you. I don’t even care about catcalls/whistles, I just don’t want to be followed around or approached by strangers. The ‘smile’ comments are also a drag. I’m on the sidewalk to use it for transit, not as a public meeting place with strangers or to get my looks commented on. Please use a bar or other public meeting place if you’re looking for conversation, a date, whatever; not the sidewalk. The sidewalk is for pedestrian traffic, not mating rituals imo.
TJwoolman: I had an entirely different thought before I read your post. I thought okay this is from an older woman and maybe in her day it was okay to be honked at. Hmm. I disagree with her that woman were tougher in those days. It seems as though they just tolerated more offensive behavior. Probably every generation thinks theirs is the best, strongest, yada, yada……I still like her though!
Yes. Sexual violence was not- I’m certain- as virulent as it is today. What was considered a compliment 50 years ago to a 20y ear old now feels like a threat to one’s safety. It’s a shame that she has to be so utterly tone- deaf about this.
I disagree. My mother has stories. It just wasn’t spoken of so openly as it is these days.
@Jay-
Hmm. I think I didn’t express myself clearly, but oddly you are making my point, in part. Yes, it was around, but hidden, and not socially acceptable. Now violence against women is interwoven in society without a second thought- internet memes, films, novels, magazines, video games, popular music- the constant exposure to it as part of everyday life desensitizes people to it, and it becomes the norm.
Are you a male Jay, or a female Jay? If the former- no offense intended- you cannot know what it feels like, no matter how wonderfully sympathetic you may be to your mother’s awful experiences.
I’m her generation too and sexual harassment and assault were more prevalent and less reported than now.
It’s how the Jimmy Saville’s and Rolf Harris’s got away with it. My teenage years in London in the 70s would have you all screaming sexual assault every day now, but we were expected to keep it a secret to this day. And yes, I’m a woman
@Kimble,
I have no intent to minimize your experiences if your claims are valid, but I don’t think sexual assault was more prevalent in the past than present. Less reported, certainly. What bothers me about your statement is your claim that 1) you are a woman and 2) that decades of experience, despite the sea change in acceptance of egregious behavior, convinces you to think the mode should still be ” put up and shut up.”
If present day society had not inculcated its members via regular exposure to think abuse of women as the norm ( lyrics, web content, video games, porn, mags, et cetera), the frequency of assault would not likely be what it is. You can parse assault figures if you wish, citing non-reporting or false reporting ( bs, btw) bias, but take a look at how many women are reporting , and bringing attention to it , as in the video cited/linked above, and every article, every university event you see in headlines. Hell, my college freshman daughter just received an email from the uni that a female student was drugged and sexually assaulted at a post-game frat party- the party that her dad and I begged not to go to (and she wisely did not ). And oh, hey, a friend of hers in another school texted her asking for help because a bunch of girls had been roofied at another on-campus party. Open your eyes. That you may think any of it, in any generation is either acceptable , or that you should receive some medal of honor for endurance is laughable.
If you truly are a woman with your claimed experiences, I feel doubly sad for you , that you 1) think you should just accept it and move on and 2) that your brainwashing is something you think may actually infect others vis-a-vis your comment.
If you are a troll, well, I hope this was satisfying, and I truly feel very sorry for your empty and unsatisfying life. Lashing out or inciting an emotional response in others for some kind punitive fun is a sign of a very defective character. Get help.
So because my experiences don’t align with your opinions, my claims are possibly invalid? Wow, way to blame a victim.
The “I am a woman” was confirmation for a person further up the thread who used gender to invalidate another poster “are you a woman?”
Thanks for the advice to get help. I’ve had lots over the years as sexual assault from childhood is very damaging. It’s why I would never treat a woman telling her experiences as you have me, even if they were not as MY experience… Calling me a troll was particularly helpful and supportive and I’m the one who needs help? I’ve been a commentator in this site for at least 5+ years, but maybe not being in your clique invalidates that also?
Nice job. You have a nice day now.
Oh, Kimble,
Look at the disclaimers throughout my comment. If it doesn’t apply, then it doesn’t apply. Every single paragraph after the first begin with “if.” Even the first paragraph, after my *apology*, has a big ole “if” clause. Why does it strike a nerve so if it does not apply to you? I did not make concrete accusations anywhere. I never said, “You are a troll.” Never.
I note that it appears you still think that you are supposed to keep whatever your negative experiences were to yourself- that’s not healthy. I hope you can get some closure and process whatever it is that you have lived through. Peace.
forever my queen patsy but no sweetie darling, no
I sort of agree, some of the time. Sometimes you’re feeling good and some guy yells out something that is nice and you just smile and laugh. Other times, maybe you’re not feeling so good, and the guy maybe adds kind of a gross gesture to the thing he yells out. It doesn’t really matter how you’re feeling, but being in a better mood makes you more welcoming, in general. Sometimes the guy makes you feel unsafe. I doubt that she takes every catcall as a compliment, there have to have been some that left her feeling icky and unsettled.
I will say, as I’ve gotten older and more invisible to the world, my catcalls have gone down, and I sort of miss them sometimes
THAT was what I was going to point out. Its easy to be offended when you are young. As you get older, it definitely feels more complementary. And it goes without saying that if the behavior is vile or gross and makes you feel unsafe it is not ok.
well, i can’t wait to be old so i don’t have to put up with this s*** anymore.
Mine have decreased at 50, but I still get stared at, with pointed looks at my chest, and I am sick to death of it. It is in no goddamn way a compliment.
First time I was catcalled, I was fourteen-ish, and it was by adult men. Ten years later, and I’m still so uncomfortable with it.
Isn’t it amazing how many women say that? My old neighborhood had these, er, sidewalk entrepreneurs who sold, shall we say, substances and services, and these old men would pull their cars up alongside the kerb and harass little girls. By “little girls”, I mean “eight-year-olds-in-braids-and-bows.” (I notice they never did that to little boys, however.)
Same, I was about 14 and a few men driving by in a truck yelled out at me while I was walking home from school. I was startled, then confused, then when I realized what was happening I was humiliated and scared. It’s not acceptable.
I was 12. And about 7 when a teacher started telling other classmates I was his girlfriend.
Holy [redacted], especially the latter part.
I was 14 when my freshman HS English teacher said to the entire class: “Let’s give **** an A, just because she looks so pretty in her outfit today.” (I was wearing a V-neck top, and I had “blossomed” early. I felt like I needed a shower. Being fair-skinned, I blushed like a lobster, and that got even MORE comments. I just wanted to crawl under a table and shrivel up. It is NOT cool to comment!
That is horrific. That is a predator in action- don’t you wonder if/how many he molested?
@Deanna, me too. My walk home from school was along a main road and I remember a number of occasions when truck drivers honked at me, this was when I was about 12-15. One day there were 2 men (mid 30s) sitting by the entrance to my street who said some crude things and groped me. Between the honks and groping I understood that there was nothing complimentary about this sort of harassment, and while one didn’t involve touching it’s on the same spectrum and still made me feel unsafe. It isn’t that I care about my looks being “judged”, its the feeling of being this exposed, dehumanized thing that men can wantonly project their sexual fantasies onto. It’s objectifying and gross.
There was an article in my local paper the other day about multiple women in the city dealing w cat-calling and how they can’t go to certain places b/c they’ll have felt triggered by men either on their way there or by someone working in the establishment…so I think it depends on the person, situation and their perception. Something you think could be a harmless honk or whistle can be very triggering and bring up a lot of bad memories for said women
As a 30-something female I totally agree with her; the new generations need to grow thicker skin & stop being so damn sensitive to every little thing. Forget Generation Snowflake, more like Generation Opportunistically Seeking Anything to be Offended & Hurt by. And then Initiate Social Media Campaign & Witchunt against Said Offender. Ridiculous.
As for cat-calling, where done from a distance & nothing else – please, that’s a total compliment. Thus far, I’m thankful to still receive them. I’m dreading the day I don’t!
‘Generation Snowflake’ bless.
I’m a 40 something woman, so an older generation than you, and I dislike catcalling and idiots whistling at me as I go about my daily business. If your self esteem is bolstered by strangers bawling at you like mountain goats have at it, but don’t belittle other women who are TELLING you they don’t appreciate it at all.
And I am considerably older than you Arlene, and I totally agree with you. You’re dreading the day you don’t get these “compliments” misselena? How ridiculous.
Arlene, I’m another 40-something who is right with you. Screw the entitled a-holes who think they can comment on my appearance wherever and whenever.
I think the fact that more women are speaking out for themselves is a sign that women in general are getting tougher, not weaker. Most of us would have just endured things like this in the past, as uncomfortable as we might have been. Speaking out does take courage, random people will call you weak and thinskinned.
Personally I don’t care for catcalling, it’s a hassle to respond in the right way, because if you don’t you get yelled at. I do like it that over where I live there has been a gradual change where (construction) men will greet you in a nice way and you can be nice back.
Wilma, that is SUCH a good point! It takes guts to fight back. And if a guy flips from “You’re beautiful” to “You’re a bitch,” in an instant, I think he has the potential to be dangerous.
Perfectly stated.
@itchyandweird-
You are 100% correct about that assumption.
“I think the fact that more women are speaking out for themselves is a sign that women in general are getting tougher, not weaker. Most of us would have just endured things like this in the past, as uncomfortable as we might have been.”
I totally agree with you, Wilma, even though the issue of catcalling vs. complimenting feels like a bit of a grey area to me.
Oh so because we speak our minds and don’t want to deal with racism, sexism, homophobia and everything else we are special snowflakes? Personally I’m not dealing with people’s shit because I shouldn’t have to. I’m sure people thought the women fighting for voting rights were special snowflakes too but okay.
I’m 37 and still get cat-called and still hate it. But I got it EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. multiple times a day when I was in my twenties, to the point where I started to feel an overwhelming rage towards men, like leave me the f*ck ALONE.
So no, sorry Missalena but the younger generation is NOT being “special snowflakes”. It actually offends me that anybody would say that about strong-minded women who refuse to be harassed simply because they are existing in the same space as men. I love that Millennials are shining a light on street harassment because nobody ever talked about this 15 years ago. It was just an accepted norm that men will yell shit, honk their horns, whistle, and women just have to deal with it.
You know what I love about my generation? That we are raising boys to not do this. More and more little boys, where I live, can be heard telling their fathers off for catcalling women. Everytime I see that I get some hope that maybe if I have daughters, they will have it so much better than I did.
+1 Nicole, your assessment of the anti-pc crowd on both the right and the left is spot on. It’s more comfortable for many to paint the ones silently accepting a traditional sexist, homophobic, or racist belief they have (and the things that belief promotes) as strong, mature, adult, or as ‘secure realists who are ok with themselves’ and dismiss anyone who criticizes those beliefs as weak, fragile children who think they’re so special. It’s a self-serving, manipulative “I don’t want this to change, you’re only strong and adult if you don’t make me uncomfortable for my prejudices” cop-out.
When women speak up for themselves they are developing a thicker skin.
Agreed. I’ve argued with the catcallers before. Firstly, if you do speak out, the catcalling will become insults and possibly threats. Secondly, once you voice your dislike of catcalling, it becomes very obvious that it was not intended to be a compliment.
‘the new generations’ blah blah blah rant rant rant blah my generation is better blah.
of all things i believe my generation need to learn from older generations, condoning men’s gross ways is the last of them.
Preach.
As one of the older generation, I am delighted when I see young woman who are confident and not prepared to put up with BS. Joanna is wrong on this one.
Oh yes, I love it when men describe in detail what they would do to my body. It’s totally a compliment, especially when I don’t know them!
If we need to grow a thicker skin, you need to grow some empathy and sensitivity.
I’m not part of the “new generation” and I don’t think we should remain silent so men don’t get their feelings hurt.
“Oh, men can no longer harass women on the street freely, poor them!”.
I will assume you have never been physically / sexually assaulted, because had you been, I cannot imagine you would take this attitude.
I was first assautled on the street in a dense residential neighborhood in broad daylight after school when I was 14. My friend helped me fight him off successfully as he tried to rip my shirt off and tackled me to the ground. It was terrifying.
The second time I was 22 – and was groped at work in the charting room by a resident on my surgical unit. Disgusting. I reported him and NOTHING came of it.
To this day, I bristle and become defensive at any whiff of a predatorial nature I perceive in a man in my presence. I am honestly offended by *your* insensitivity, and hope you can one day begin to consider others’ perspectives.
And for a little more perspective, I am 50 years old.
In my opinion I’ve noticed that the ahem…”special snowflakes” are actually the people who are more offended by others who speak up against inequalities and isms rather than the fact that those inequalities and isms exist in the first place..
I really love how my generation is criticised as a Special Snowflake generation when it was the generation above us giving us those stupid participation trophies and such to begin with. And it’s always comments made on the social media they yell at us for being obsessed with too.
But you know, OP is right. Since they had to deal with it and they are OBVIOUSLY better than my generation, you know with our cell phones and our twitter and our hashtags, we should just stay silent and let men harrass us from their cars. It’s definitely tougher to just let someone hurl crap at us than to actually assert ourselves. That’s why it’s so easy for women to get paid equally at work…oh, wait.
Y’all had your own stuff going on in your 20’s. It’s going to be different than ours. That doesn’t make it bad and it doesn’t make us ‘offended’.
@G, ignore it all. Seriously. It doesn’t deserve a response. All the social media/hashtag/youtube/tumblr/fb mavens are a groundswell of change, and I personally love you all for it.
“In my opinion I’ve noticed that the ahem…”special snowflakes” are actually the people who are more offended by others who speak up against inequalities and isms rather than the fact that those inequalities and isms exist in the first place.”
Amen. They tell people that the very traditional, status quo beliefs they’re defending are revolutionary, rare politically incorrect truth bombs that the weaker, less logical, less honest/real, less adult, less ethical masses (a.k.a., anyone who opposes their beliefs and says ‘hey, that shit contributes to these problems over here, you know’) just can’t handle, that anyone who is truly tolerant and supportive of the first amendment will only say nice, pleasant things about them and their toxic beliefs, and insist that the weak, self-centered snowflakes are the ones who point out that their beliefs play a role in different groups’ inequality and suffering, not themselves for caring more about their ‘right’ to not be criticized for saying XYZ.
You honestly sound like a troll. I don’t believe a woman can actually think like this. If you’re thankful for “still” receive them (typical of stupid men to find a 30 yr old woman really old), then I think your self esteem is miserable.
I would say a troll if someone else hadn’t agreed. Now I just find it sad af.
Frankly I’ll take the special snowflake title if it means fighting people that are so upset that they can’t be assholes because they are privileged. Time for that is over.
As another 30 something female, are you for real? I’m sorry that strangers calling out to you is what you perceive as a compliment. Troll harder.
That’s because you’re old as f*ck.
wow Joni! Science wants to know how you will avoid aging? Is it a Benjamin Button deal for you? Scientists are waiting to hear from you!
I am a long way from being Joanna’s age too but comments like this make me long to have a Future Eye camera so I can see the 70-year Joni types dealing with life, and how shocked they are that they got older too.
I hope I am as much fun and as chill as Joanna when I’m even 50 or 60. I may not exactly agree w her on this in all way, tho there is catcalling and there is catcalling, but….
Yep, that’s us- getting all her up about little nothings like “women getting treated equally”! In your day ladies knew what their place was, amirite?? All these women and minorities kept their yaps shut, and it was truly magical *sheds a single tear for the lost days when everything was perfect*
What do you think your parents and their generation said about you? And their parents said about them? Older generations always think the younger ones are full of nonsense. Have fun voting for Trump though!
hold on, i think people are misinterpreting you. the fact she’s old af means her ideas are old af, too. as in, outdated. i think.
LMAO
@ Joni Excuse me, I am only a couple of years younger than Joanna Lumley and I don’t agree with her at all.
And one day, if you are lucky enough to live that long, you will be as old as f*ck too.
I totally agree spidey. I disagree strongly with Joanna, and the assumption that all people of a certain age share the same ideas is offensive. Guess what, we’re individuals, we didn’t all share the same ideas when we were young, why the hell should we now? And I could probably come up with a better phrase than “old as f*ck”.
Yes! Thank you, this is the best description of how it effects me and I know many others.
Love JL, but she is living in another century. This is what catcalling looks like today https://youtu.be/b1XGPvbWn0A
When I went to the link, it went to a long ad for the movie Allied. I actually thought the scene where they flipped a table and were shooting up the place pretty accurately reflected what I would like to do to the guys who call out to me on the street…. 🙂
The real video was quite accurate also. When I was younger and walked a lot, I figured it happened at least once every half hour in my small town where the guys shout from cars more often than being on the street themselves. Sometimes they slow down to “offer a ride”. The worst is when I would be waiting to walk across an intersection and couldn’t get away from the non-stop version. I considered writing down licenses and complaining to police, but figured that would just make it more likely that they would hurt me physically and try to follow me home. I’ve had to duck into a store sometimes so they wouldn’t see where I live. I had to be in a good enough mood to walk because it really felt bad whenever it happened.
They never do it when a woman is walking with a man or a child, indicating we are already owned by a man. If it was compelled by our blinding beauty, they would do it in the presence of a male companion. Men often don’t believe us because they don’t see it happen when they are with us. Why they think we would lie about something like that, I don’t know. My brother finally believed me when his girlfriend mentioned that it was a relief to walk with him because then she didn’t have to deal with it.
That video enrages me.
Speak for yourself, lady.
Not all of us see it as a compliment. They’re just reminding us that they have control over us, that we can’t even walk down the street minding our own business.
Some evidence is the fact that they don’t do it if we are walking with a man or a child, signs that we are already owned by another man. If they really were compelled by our overwhelming beauty, the presence of a male companion would make no difference.
The male companion thing is horrible. That they can respect a “man’s property” but not a woman by herself?!
Some of the earliest sexual harassment lawsuits involved construction sites. Women would avoid whole city blocks because the workers would try to outdo one another or shout gross things in unison. It was never just one guy saying something nice. It would be dozens of guys shouting out their opinions of women’s bodies and what they wanted to do to them. Not to mention that they weren’t getting their work done and they were putting their own safety at risk by not paying attention to the job. Employers had to be made to focus on those latter two problems before they began to deal with the situation.
I avoid construction sites at all cost. Doesn’t matter if I’m wearing heels and my route gets extended by 5 blocks.
Weirdly, I’ve always had good luck with men on construction sites being either very courteous and/or leaving me alone. A lot of construction companies must have really started cracking down on it.
Losing lawsuits or jobs will do that to a company..
Catcalling is nothing more than a benign compliment and that is why the men who do it to women would have absolutely no problem with gay men doing it to them, right? Or would they freak the fuck out?
Excellent point.
Great. Plus, why do they hate so much when their beloved mothers, dauughter and sisters are catcalled, I mean, complimented?
I’m inclined to agree, Kaiser. Not ALL catcalling is evil but some of it is, especially if it involves invading personal space. But even when it’s goodnatured, it’s now anachronistic and has probably had its day. We are moving on; it’s just taking forever.
Once upon a time – I don’t think it happens any more or it does and I’m now too old to get it! – in the UK, the one up from a wolf whistle was the shout of, “Get yer tits out for the lads!” I used to shout back, “Only if you show me your needle dick first!”
Great response Sixer.
I work in a city, right smack in downtown, and this is an everyday occurrence for me. Sometimes it’s just a whistle, sometimes it’s more. It’s always uncomfortable, it’s always someone who is not my “peer” socioeconomically, and I hate it. I don’t want to be whistled at. I don’t want to know that a strange man across the way thinks my body looks good. It’s gross.
And frankly, I don’t think the men mean it as a compliment. If they did, they’d fucking stop doing it when we asked them to. Instead, they INSIST it’s their RIGHT to objectify us.
“And frankly, I don’t think the men mean it as a compliment. If they did, they’d fucking stop doing it when we asked them to. Instead, they INSIST it’s their RIGHT to objectify us.”
This. How many times has it been brought up by women on social media, women’s organizations on the news, etc, that a helluva lot of women don’t like being catcalled. Sure, some women do, but there’s a very good chance that she won’t. But guys still insist on doing it and will angrily defend their “right” to do so.
Why does it matter that your catcaller was not one of your socioeconomic peers? Would you hate it less or not at all if it came from a peer?
There are tons of articles out there that would explain it much better than I ever could, but it matters because ultimately it’s about power and control. The men doing the cat-calling are often of a lower socioeconomic status asserting control over a woman who is of a higher socioeconomic status, but they hold the privilege in regards to gender.
But…but…how could they know your socioeconomic status just by looking at you?
@Kitten – possibly by the way you’ve dressed? Clothes are a pretty dead giveaway of class where I’m from.
I can’t tell if that’s sarcasm or not Kitten, but to answer the question, it’s a bunch of little things. The way someone’s dressed, the bags they’re carrying, the type of car they’re driving, the shoes they’re wearing, etc. There’s a lot of research that shows catcalling is often done by men of lower socioeconomic status because it’s a small way someone who maybe doesn’t feel very powerful can assert some control/power.
It’s been said a million times before and I’ll never understand why women like her don’t get it: It’s nice that YOU personally don’t feel attacked, threatened or offended by catcalling. But the guy doing the catcalling? He didn’t decide to only catcall the one woman in a ten block radius who thinks it’s a complement, he just doesn’t GAF how you feel about it. You aren’t a person to him, you’re an object for his pleasure. And in this day and age, he KNOWS women don’t like it and does it anyway. It’s all about power and aggression.
And whenever some old person whines about the younger generations being too sensitive, it’s completely obvious they’re just bitter that they can’t be openly homophobic, sexist or racist anymore. Boo hoo.
YES. yesyesyesyesyesyes.
+1
And when the woman can’t be there for pleasure she deserves to be punished.
After I cut my hair I got homophobic insults. It was terrifying.
And if you don’t react the way he wants – oh hey handsome, thanks for the compliment *seductive butt waggle* or whatever the hell they fantasize a woman will say, you are a bitch/ugly/ice queen/cunt. Sometimes even not paying attention to them is enough to get them riled.
I have never faced violence except by men I have turned down or not shown appropriate interest in.
Irene, please bear in mind that most of of us older people never were those things, and have done quite a lot to get us to the stage where it is less acceptable to openly use bigoted language. Although…Donald Trump seems to be (paraphrasing Justin Timberlake) bringing nasty back.
Agree with the entire last paragraph.
Joanna Lumley has been a real social activist for many years – it may be that she just feels that catcalling is way down on the list of the world’s problems. I think we all have an internal ranking system of what’s important and what isn’t.
True. I disagree with her on this issue, but I’m not about to blacklist her and continuously undermine any good she has done, or will do, in her many causes by ending any positive discussion about her “… yeah, but she condones catcalling, so she can’t be [our friend/an ally/a genuinely good person underneath that catcalling is ok fascade]”. I think we just have to accept the plurality of voices and opinions, even amongst people in our corner.
Catcalling is not a compliment.
I don’t mind being hit on. But I do mind feeling like my appearance is up for public commentary just because I left the house and I’m female. I mean, I see her point, but catcalling just embarrasses me and I don’t like it. If you want to come over and strike up a conversation, yes. Just hollering at me, no.
I’m sorry, but no. If she’s fine then great for her, but this generalization needs to stop. I hate being catcalled or followed. And it has nothing to do with how you’re dressed – last summer I ran to a deli to buy lunch and I was catcalled all the way by different men and most of their words weren’t pretty or flattering. I was wearing a long, flowy skirt, a tshirt and a sweater over it to further “hide” my body.
Men need to learn to keep their thoughts to themselves and not to harrass women just because they find us attractive.
ETA: and lets not forget that GIRLS also get catcalled all the time. I got my first catcall at age 11. It’s sickening.
The thing I resent the most about catcalls and the dreaded “smile!” is that I’m forced to interrupt my thoughts to evaluate the level of threat the cat caller poses to my safety. Even if I determine that he poses no threat, I resent that the cat caller feels that he is entitled to my attention/reaction. I could be thinking about the cure for cancer or how to fix climate change or ways to end hunger and/or the path to world peace, but oh, cat caller, I’ll just drop everything important to me and shift my attention to you. Of course my mom’s funeral, the results of my cancer screening, my divorce and/or being fired are no reasons to not give you a great big smile. Ugh. It’s like a mental mugging.
I agree 100% with what you said, Molee. And I’m usually so shocked and surprised by the uninvited intervention into my thoughts that I don’t think of the perfect put-down until it’s too late.
Love this comment. A mental mugging, a reminder that I’m just a feature of the landscape and not a person is exactly what it is.
Yes! Thank you, this is the best description of how it effects me and I know many others.
I’m struggling to be accepting of differing opinions on this topic, but I can’t help but be completely horrified that some women actually ENJOY being catcalled.
Could you guys maybe keep that on the DL? Because guys reading this thread will inevitably think “See? Women LOVE to be harassed!” which sucks for the rest of us.
+1000 seriously, go see a therapist about your self esteem issues and stop encouraging entitled arseholes to harass those of us who rightfully see catcalling as an act of aggression.
Seeing large groups of men triggers my anxiety because of the countless ugly experiences I’ve had with catcalling.
That just brought me back.
In highschool there was one area in my school I would have shakes having to walk passed.
There was always a large group of guys standing there, and they would be sucking their teeth at me, muttering about how they wanted to do such and such to me, trying to ‘take my hand’.
And they would get so pissed if you ignored them, or said you weren’t interested. It was so horrible.
That teeth-sucking thing and the “sssssssp ssssssp sssssssp” stuff is the worst. Like you’re their pet or something. So degrading.
I am with you on this.
Is it coming because some people don’t get cat called often? I don’t really understand fully. Does it have to do with needing affirmation you’re attractive.
I was out with a friend, and we were catcalled 3 times in a half hour, just walking at lunch.
She LOVED it and I couldn’t figure out why, but it was because she rarely had that sort of attention. She said she never felt attractive to men, she’d been told her whole life she wasn’t thin or pretty enough by her family. So getting a bit of sexual attention from strange men was really nice.
Is it all about the dose making the poison or what? I personally hate it with a fiery passion. Please do not tell me about your boner fee fees. I do not care and am frankly grossed out.
Mmmhmmm. You said exactly what I was thinking but was afraid to say for fear of offending people.
So thanks, detritus.
I was reading yesterday about a 20 year old girl who was kidnapped and raped by two brothers, then she managed to kill one of them with the same knife he was trying to kill her.
She was accused of murder, of being a prostitute, of dating one of the guys, etc. So she was sent to jail.
And it all began with the guys catcalling her from a motorcycle, she was on her way to work, she ignored them, and suddenly one of them grabbed her, beat her and dragged her inside a building where they already knew him.
This is common in my country, girls get raped and murdered every single day. And in words of a female journalist (whose article I can’t seem to find atm): When a guy catcalls you in the street you don’t feel complimented, you start wondering if this is it, if this is the moment you’re going to get raped or killed.
My, God. Post a link please.
Besides the fact that this even happened in the first place, the other thing that I hate about this case (I’m just now hearing it from your comment) is the fact that she was sent to jail basically for not being killed by her rapists. Do you know if she’s still in jail? I hope she doesn’t have to stay and take a murderer’s punishment for what was really self-defense.
I hate catcalling, and it definitely perpetuates the sexist perception that because I’m female, my appearance is up for male approval and/or ratings. I’m 60 and attractive still, but what about this can she not understand?! The WORST is when I was catcalled as a little 13 year old girl. Yes, we DID have to be tougher back then, but it’s much better to improve our awareness and our society rather than toughen up to deal with sexism, racism, homophobism, etc.!!
I think I remember her saying some problematic things about women drinking & rape before, so sadly doesn’t surprise me that she has said this. (Also did anyone else see her on Graham Norton, I think a few years back, saying that she only eats one meal a day to stay slim?)
Catcalling makes a woman self conscious about her looks. Awful. It’s a form of harassment. Men have no right.
Next time some douchebro catcalls me, I’m going to sucker punch him in the stomach and insist that it’s a compliment in my culture and that he should toughen up if he’s so hurt by it…
Oh no, another one to add to my list of “I thought you were great, but that was a mistake”. Her own identity also plays heavily into this as she seems unable to reflect on how the objectification of women for their looks plays out on women on all sides. In a world in which a woman’s “beauty” determines her worth, that also means that ugly women become worthless per se (as seen perfectly with ISIS who sold and raped women that they picked as beautiful and slaughtered and put into mass graves women who were deemed ugly and/or old).
Why am I constantly surprised that rich celebrities have very little to offer when it comes to reflection and critical thinking?
If you’re a woman who likes it, well then, it’s your business. If another woman doesn’t like it, then she doesn’t like it. Period. You don’t get to tell her she should love it. A friend and I were talking about this the other day (we’re both in our 20s). She said she found it amazing and that sometimes she even thanks the guy. When I tried explaining her why I thought it’s not something nice at all, she just cut me off, called me a renegade and told me I “don’t know how to appreciate the finer things in life” and that I’m “missing out”. So there.
For a women’s studies class in college we did a project where we catcalled men and taped their reactions. Many of them yelled that we were “stupid sluts” in response. It was very telling, I think.
I’ll try to respond in order:
1. “If your self esteem is bolstered by strangers bawling at you like mountain goats have at it, but don’t belittle other women who are TELLING you they don’t appreciate it at all.”
I never said that appreciating a cat-call – done from a distance (and remaining that way) without any other follow-up, had anything to do with bolstering my self-esteem. I’m a confident person who happens to be very comfortable in my own skin. If you wish to make the connection that not getting offended by cat-calling is somehow a reflection of an underlying low-self esteem that needs ‘bolstering’, that’s up to you. It certainly isn’t a reflection of my personal experience and likely says more about you.
2. I wholeheartedly agree with everyone that any sort of cat-calling that involves aggressive, physical behaviour – or becomes hostile if a response isn’t forthcoming when it was expected, is completely abhorrent. Any such behaviour towards young girls (or males) is totally wrong.
3. “I will assume you have never been physically / sexually assaulted, because had you been, I cannot imagine you would take this attitude.”
Since you asked, I was and at a very young age by someone within the family structure. I was fortunate to be able to get help & support and have been lucky to have a positive, fulfilling and happy adult existence, with a wonderful family of my own. So yes, I am able to have an opinion that differs from most on this thread with regards to cat-calling. What I find bizarre and quite sad is that presumably amongst (presumable mostly females) company on this thread, unless one makes it known that one has such experience (physical or sexual assault), you can’t be a credible commenter? Not everyone who has suffered abuse feels the need to identify with it, or let it be their filter/guide on everything in life. And certainly, I don’t associate that experience as being a reason to feel out of control towards (mild) cat-calling. To me, it is what I said it is – a light compliment.
All of that being said, having read many of the responses here I recognise that for many of you, you’ve obviously experienced a type of cat-calling that has gone well-beyond my own personal experience. If you have had anything that made you physically threatened, or scared, or it simply brought up bad memories, then I am genuinely sorry if my comment in any way felt like it was trivialising your experience. That was not my intention, and I guess I’m fortunate that I haven’t experienced what you have. Only going with my experience thus far, and in response to this post, ‘light’ cat-calling doesn’t threaten or bother me in the least. There have been times where I’ve actually turned around, smiled and said ‘thank you!’ – and on several occasions, the response was a surprised wave goodbye. Maybe I’ve been lucky, maybe it’s a cultural thing (I live in the UK), who knows..
Well, with all due respect, it sort of sounded like you were trying to say that, since you find those things to be compliments, then every other woman should. Maybe it wasn’t what you were trying to say, but it still sounded that way.
Actually, I was responding to the post which was to explore JL’s viewpoint on whether cat-calling is offensive or a compliment. Since many of the comments that had already been posted were strongly implying that men who cat-call must only do so to demean or objectify, I felt compelled to disagree. Which I do. I think brushing a whole gender by making such a statement is unfair and wrong. As I conceded in my recent comment, there are obviously many occasions where cat-calling has gone well beyond a cheeky wink or compliment (in my experience ‘hello, beautiful’ has never felt threatening at all) – and the men who behave badly in those cases are absolutely despicable. But that does not mean that all men who cat-call are, and I do feel that the nuances of such behavior is simply lost on so many people, in this case women, who leap to being offended at every little thing that is said which doesn’t agree with them. Not everyone who says something you don’t like or agree with is therefore bad, or the enemy – they are just different. And by special snowflakes, I mean the inability to accept differences of opinion, behaviour, etc. To put it simply, I just believe that not all cat-calling (and callers) are the same. There are shades of it, and the type that is meant as a compliment simply because a man, or men, has noticed you look attractive, and wishes to express that in a light-hearted way, is not something I think needs to be demonised to the degree that it has. I’m pretty sure a lot of women know exactly the type of cat-calling I’m referring to, and I’ll bet at least some of them wouldn’t have a problem with it – whether in their 20’s or 50s’ (the women).
Oh, so there’s nice catcallers and sick pervert catcallers, and it’s the woman’s responsibility to differentiate and stop being so damn sensitive about it. She might even run the danger of offending the nice catcaller! Go figure. Listen there’s this gender elephant in the room and you’re not seeing it. If those nice people want to pay compliments just to brighten somebody’s day, why don’t they do it with other men? Like, looking good today, sir, or, smile, handsome, or nice ass, bro.
Well, tbh there are definitely times when males compliment other males (nice haircut, cool shoes, etc, You look sharp/fancy etc), just like sometimes older or younger women approach each other and compliment them on whatever.
I think that due to all the abuse women suffer through the hands/minds of terrible men, the fact that we have to fear our safety automatically makes us suspicion of men’s intent, even when its coming from a genuine place. Then again,there are also people who are just simply not comfortable of getting compliments, regardless of gender for whatever reason.
@ Missalena:
I think “Hello, beautiful” is really patronizing. Any time a man, or woman for that matter, calls me “sweetheart” or anything like that, I find it patronizing. I don’t know these people, they are strangers, and it’s creepy and patronizing for them to talk to me in such an intimate way.
BTW I’m 27.
Ok, I see your point, and I notice you keep talking about your experience (which is fine), but hasn’t it occured to you that maybe those women legitimately dislike it, and aren’t trying to make a point of demonizing men, nor anything of the sort? In fact, I think most of us wish we no longer felt the need to fight and get angry about all things we have to go through just because we’re women. The reason why we talk about Men as a whole isn’t because we think all men are the same (obviously not, needless to say), but because, in one way or another, they all benefit from the sole fact of being the gender they are. My main point is, if a woman doesn’t like it, then she doesn’t like it. Period. If a man cannot accept that, that’s his problem. He can think whatever he wants about her, but can also keep it to himself.
I am saddened that that you have entirely missed the point. A woman in a public place is not an object like a piece of sculpture or building to be commented on by passers by. And nice walk back on your comments about the younger generation of women. Hope you learned something from all the responses to your original post.
If it’s a compliment then why don’t I get catcalled when I’m with my father or my husband?
I love to NOT know what a stranger thinks about the way I look when I step out of my house. I was once leaving to work when I saw and heard two men making fun of a young woman because her pants were baggy. They were saying stuff like “a cute girl with such ugly ass pants, you look like you shat on them”. Immediatly I wanted to change my path, but it was too late for that and I had to pass them by. Well, I “earned” a compliment, followed by a comparision between me and the girl with pants. While I felt relivied, I also thought it was awful for both of us, since the last thing that mattered to them was us as individuals. If we’ve switched clothes, I’d be the one being mocked and she would get the “compliment”, but we’d still be seeing as things to look at.
Women see good looking men in the streets everyday and somehow manage to not to whistle/shout obscenities at them.
If it were just a harmless compliment, it wouldn’t be so gendered.
A man saying “hey beautiful” may be a compliment, but I have had obscenities hurled at me, been followed for over a mile, been cussed out when I do not reciprocate, been pinched and grabbed by strange men, and have had men try to block my path. I eventually got a car because walking everywhere was scary. NOT A COMPLIMENT.
When you base your worth off your looks, I guess it’s a compliment or whatever, but for me personally, a cat call is not necessary for me to feel good about myself. A compliment is different. When I walk down the street, I don’t even want to say ‘hi’to a person I don’t know. I am from NYC though, so if a random person says anything to me my immediate response is, “WTF” with an uber bitch face.
What it comes down to, for me, is this: the fact that some men feel completely comfortable shouting their opinion out at random women suggests that public spaces are somehow “male” spaces, that women just get to walk around in. Men can walk around without being shouted at; why can’t women? And it really sucked when I was a teenager, whose boobs seemed to appear overnight, to get unwanted attention when I already felt super awkward.
And actually, “hey beautiful” or other such comments that yes, are relatively harmless, are unwanted too. I am a person walking around and existing, I don’t need/want any opinions on this.
Men don’t even have to think about this stuff; so why do I?
“Men don’t even have to think about this stuff; so why do I?”
@Katie – ^ perfectly and beautifully succinct.
If you think randoms on the street hollering that they find you bangable is a compliment, work on your self-esteem. Period. Sexual energy and appreciation are fantastic, but from people who matter.
I’ll add this for levity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35KqGNa1FGA. It’s a take on the ‘walking for 10 hours in Manhattan”, only now she talks back, and it’s hilarious.
I do like Joanna and I’ll always love her for Patsy, but she does speak on some subjects from deep within the safe bubble of her own privilege.
I wonder how she’s react if, the next time she walks past a building site, she’s greeted with a chorus of ‘Blimey, look at the state of that’ or ‘Put it away, Grandma’.
Reading all your stories makes me so happy to live in a country where catcalling doesn’t exist. I can’t imagine what it would feel like to have to go through that every time you walk out the door.
I don’t get upset over a whistle or a honk or even a sincere compliment verbally if it’s respectful, but it’s when they cross the respect line that I get upset. A man saying, “You are really pretty” to my face is nice, but just last week when I was leaving work, one of the contractors working on our building was sitting in his truck when I walked to my car and he said loudly, “God Damn!!!” and I thought, “You moron. I could get you fired in a heartbeat. What an idiot!” I didn’t find it offensive, just dumb. At work isn’t the place to offer up your curse of a compliment. And cursing as a compliment is ignorant. It might be flattering, but I think men that do that have a low IQ.
I live in NYC. I consider even the ‘mild’ form of catcalling harassment. There are days when I’m interrupted several times in an hour, walking down the street, told to ‘smile’, said ‘hello’ in an overly aggressive manner. To an outside observer it might not appear to be harmless. But the fact that I can’t go about my life without men constantly demanding my attention no matter whether I feel like dealing with them or not is the textbook definition of harassment. I know that every woman deals with it but I do think being an African American woman makes it worse for various reasons. Most of the time I ignore them. I make sure I’m wearing sunglasses so as not to catch anyone’s eyes. Theres a reason men aren’t harassed and it’s not just because women are more mature. It’s also because in our society a mans time is still considered more valuable no one would dare interrupt a man walking down the street and demand he said hello to him just because.
“Theres a reason men aren’t harassed and it’s not just because women are more mature. It’s also because in our society a mans time is still considered more valuable no one would dare interrupt a man walking down the street and demand he said hello to him just because.”
Say it again and again and AGAIN, Luca76.
I think it can depend on who you are.
Do I want to feel unsafe? No.
But a catcall…?
I’ve always been what you’d call curvy or even fat.
Men don’t catcall us much.
I used to live in NYC the Catcall Capital of the World.
So when (if) it happens, it makes me feel that “wow, I do look good.” Again, assuming it is not done by some creep who is blocking my path and not letting me pass.
You need to work on your self esteem and not get validation from men who objectify you.
I find it remarkable that women don’t have the need to catcall. Why is that? IMO, it makes the boys look like losers.
Honestly, I think I have only ever been complimented by a man doing this once. He and his friend said I looked nice. I said thanks. That was the entire exchange and it felt nice. He didn’t whistle at me or expect anything.
Every other instance has been gross. I used to dye my hair all the time. I don’t anymore because any color I had that was slightly unusual got a bunch of comments from people, especially men. I’d get people yelling out of their cars. It wasn’t complimentary at all, and this is coming from someone who rarely gets yelled at out and about anymore.
Other women can have their own boundaries and lines of what they like. I just…am not a fan. At all.
Ok but genuine question here: CAN women really set their own boundaries in a situation like that? Can we really say that this is something we can chose to enjoy or not when there’s a faction of us who clearly find this kind of attention from men to be threatening and/or misogynistic?
The problem with saying “it’s ok if you like it, but I don’t” is that it sends mixed messages to men. I think it would be more helpful if women said “don’t do that because you don’t know if that woman enjoys it or not”.
Don’t you think it’s better for men to assume that women DON’T like it then to assume that we do?
Most of all, is it really THAT important to some women that a stranger find her pretty?
I’m not directing my questions as you personally, just wondering “out loud” what’s the best way to handle it.
*at
If you wouldn’t do it while your mom is standing next to you, or better yet to your mother, then it’s not a “compliment”, you’re most likely being creepy and/or overtly sexual.
Best advice ever about everything you do in life.
I tell my kids re: Facebook that if there is something you wouldn’t want your mother knowing/seeing, then it’s something you shouldn’t put up on a public forum.
I didn’t read many of the comments, but I think a lot of women would agree that it’s more intimidating than flattering. It especially frightened and embarrassed me as a teenager.
Catcalling only bothers me when they get straight up agressive, which only happened once. Wasn’t going to give this dumbass the satsfaction of a reaction to his gross come-on, so he said “bitch I’m talking to you”. Thankfully the couple other times it happened, it was the Joey “how you doing?” variety. I smile and keep walking, and they go back to doing their thing. The “how you doing?” type catcalling doesn’t bother me, and I do find it to be a compliment. Unfortunately some guys don’t leave it at that.
If someone is being aggressive or disgusting, absolutely not.
If someone says that I have a nice smile , it doesn’t bother me,
I’m not going to put Joanna down for her POV – we are all entitled to have one.
Nor am I going to make disparaging remarks about her age – ageism is just as disgusting as sexism.
There is a nice way to do it. On my drive home from work yesterday I was at a stoplight looking straight ahead. The guy next to me had his music on pretty loud but I wasn’t looking at him. I heard him turn off the music and yell over to me – “Hey, I just wanted to let you know that you’re pretty gorgeous!” I looked over, thanked him, and we both said “Have a good night!” and went on our ways. Now that was nice, it actually made me feel good, not creeped out. He obviously wasn’t trying to do anything but brighten my day and it did.
I’ve also been hit on in the other creepy way with catcalls or sexual comments, being followed around either via car, on the street, or out of bars, being photographed without my permission, getting groped, etc. Those guys need a punch in the face and to learn some manners.
Kaiser, I love your comment about ‘Stockholm Syndrome’.
At 38 years old, a whistle is a compliment in my book. It startles me lol, but when I think back on it a few minutes after its happened,… I strut LOL! If you move into my space, we have a serious problem, but ill take a whistle.
Because the approval of lowlife men elevates women?
It’s a power play…usually, by men who don’t feel so powerful (have insecurities). Just another way to show dominance.
Sorry if I’m repeating what others may have said; I haven’t read any of the comments.
I don’t want any unsolicited comments about me by anyone at anytime. What gives anyone the right to intrude? As Molee expressed so eloquently, it is like mental mugging. With the cat calling it does require one to stop often and look around to make sure you are safe and not being followed. Ive been followed before, it was terrifying! As someone who is socially shy and I get anxious speaking in public, having unwanted public attention makes me feel like I’m going to have a panic attack.
Not sure if this will make sense, but when I get cat-called, I feel like I’m being forced to be ‘easy’ (as if I gave them consent to talk to me that way, when I actually never did). I also feel ‘brainless’ (like a piece of meat) which is within the vicinity of “gas-lighting”, I suppose.
#rapecultureperpeptuation #rapeculture #apeculture