The whole Gypsies-as-a-political-issue thing isn’t something I’m terribly familiar with, so I actually had to do a little bit of research on the issue, specifically the Gypsy issue within Romania. I apologize in advance if I’m incorrect, but from what I can see, Gypsies (Roma) seem to be a culturally, politically and socially oppressed minority within Romania. The Roma maintain their own language (Romany), names, music, customs, set of laws, and the overwhelming majority refuse to marry outside of the Roma, although many have begun to become more integrated into non-Roma communities.
It was back in August when Madonna was performing in Bucharest, Romania, and she spoke out on the issue of Gypsies. According to Fanfarazzi, Madonna “explained that no one should be discriminated against and that it made her ‘sad’ that Gypsies, also known as Roma, face this kind of plight. That’s when thousands of Romanian fans, who did not agree, loudly booed the pop star. She didn’t react.” Poor Madge. Entering a country’s internal political debate like a freight train, and she isn’t even thanked for her trouble.
So this Gypsy history and Madge history is the jumping off point for this latest story about Ethan Hawke. Apparently, Ethan is all over the Roma stuff because his mom is president of the Ovidiu Rom charity. According to the website: “The mission of Ovidiu Rom is to empower the poorest members of Romanian society through education, job training, community development and public awareness.” Ethan thinks Madge is amazing for standing up for Gypsies, and he’s even traveled to Romania to see the Gypsies’ conditions first hand:
At an August concert in Bucharest on her “Sticky & Sweet” tour, Madonna called for an end to widespread discrimination against Eastern Europe’s Gypsies – and her stance provoked boos from thousands of fans in Romania. Now ‘Reality Bites’ star Ethan Hawke, visiting Romania to help promote his mother’s charity supporting education for Gypsy children, placed the pop superstar alongside Bob Marley and John Lennon as part of a tradition of artists speaking out against racism.
“She transcended being a pop star,” he told reporters. “She drew international attention and shone the spotlight on a level of racism and the need for greater education,” Hawke said.
“I don’t have an agenda, Madonna doesn’t have an agenda. We aren’t politicians,” Hawke said.
Hawke, 38, was to speak later Saturday at the Ovidiu Rom charity Halloween ball. He and his mother, Leslie Hawke, the charity’s president, were already dressed in costume: the actor in top hat and tails and his mother in a Japanese-style kimono, black wig and geisha-like makeup.
A pair of Madonna’s Christian Dior shoes with autographed skyscraper gold heels are to be raffled off at the ball, which is to be held in the giant palace of the late dictator Nicolae Ceausescu. Among the other prizes is a gold chain provided by actress Vanessa Redgrave.
Hawke has been coming to Romania to support his mother’s work since 2000, he said.
“I feel I can do something,” he told reporters, “instead of being part of the problem.”
Romania has the largest number of Roma in Europe, numbering officially half a million, but whose population is believed to be as high as 2 million. The European Union’s Fundamental Rights Agency has said Gypsies face “overt discrimination” in housing, health care and education.
Romania, home to the Dracula legend, may have influenced two-time Academy Award nominee Hawke’s latest movie, ‘Daybreakers,’ in which he plays a researcher in the year 2019 facing a plague that has transformed the world’s population into vampires. The movie comes out in 2010.
Prince Vlad the Impaler, the Romanian warlord whose cruelty inspired Bram Stoker’s 1897 novel, ‘Dracula’ has spawned dozens of Hollywood movies about vampires in the Transylvania region.
[From PopEater]
I’m generally pretty “meh” on Ethan, but I’ll give him credit for this. He’s supporting his mom, and he’s being generous with his time and energy, all to bring awareness to a cause that I really didn’t know was such a big deal. Way to go, Ethan. And way to go, Ethan’s mom (who sounds really cool).
Here’s Ethan taking a stroll through New York City with his daughter Clementine along for the ride on October 11th, and with wife Ryan Shawhuges on August 30th. Images thanks to Pacific Coast News.
Ethan does not know of what he speaks, just like Madonna doesn’t.
Anyone from actual European or slavic countries who actually have come across gypsies will tell them that.
He is another who needs to stfu.
Who are you that we are to take your word? Not that I think Madonna and Ethan Hawke necessarily have the greatest knowledge of European current events, but fighting to end outright discrimination is always a good thing. Katyusha, you sound like a racist to me.
And FYI – if you want anyone in America to take you seriously, please learn English grammar and syntax.
@J
I am nobody, but I’m telling what I have (and I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one) experienced. I also know I’m not the only one who think Madonna and Ethan Hawke are talking out of their butts.
Just because YOU don’t know anything about gypsies doesn’t mean I’m a racist, so please, save it. When you actually know their true way of life, then please, give me a call. Until then, don’t be so f-ing judgemental.
FYI – the first sentence of my first post is not how I speak. I just threw that in there. I AM American, and you would be the last person I look to consort with about rating my grammar. I’m educated, but thanks for playing 🙂
you should research better, you don’t know what you’re talking about. the Gypsies don’t bahave like they do in movies you see and they were given too many opportunities already. or maybe you should have to deal with them stealing from you or getting medical treatment without working a day in their lives and post an article after.
“Ethan does not know of what he speaks, just like Madonna doesn’t.” That is not proper English, so next time why don’t you just throw in something that makes sense. You want to sound intelligent and academic, but clearly have no idea how.
How am I the one being judgemental when you feel comfortable basing your opinion of an entire group of people on the worst stereotypes. IE: would it be alright to discriminate against Muslims and categorize them all as terrorists?? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Your stance is just as harmful. Maybe if these people were not treated like garbage and were accepted into mainstream society, they would not be forced to live on the fringe outskirts of society as you describe. Open your minds people; not fifty years ago these same type of comments would be used in America to describe African-Americans.
What I do know is there is a huge, and largely undiscussed, issue with multicultural intolerance in Europe. I believe there is discrimination against the Roma.
I think it’s interesting that some commenters disagree but don’t justify their opinions, stating simply that ‘if only you knew what they’re REALLY like…’ Because no one ever used an argument like that when discussing gays, or blacks, this is totally refreshing and has completely convinced me of their side. (sarcasm)
Sometimes I agree that celebs shouldn’t voice opinions about what they see as human rights violations. But then I read an article about AJ and the hundred comments about how important her work is in raising the profile of underprivileged people’s suffering. Sometimes I think we should all butt out of other countries’ affairs, but then I remember the Holocaust and how well that worked out. Tough issue, but I don’t think I hate a star for speaking out. They have the power to draw attention, why shouldn’t they use it for something that feels important to them? Nobody is making you listen.
J,
I don’t have to sound intelligent, because I am. Did you miss where I said that’s not how I normally speak? I threw that in there for sh*ts and giggles. And if what I said didn’t make sense to you, then perhaps you need better comprehension skills.
You’re missing my point, entirely. What I say about gypsies is not an opinion, I’ve seen it with my own f-ing eyes. Seriously, do some research on gypsies. I’m not making this stuff up. Just so you know, anyone who knows anything about how gypsies live would never compare them to African Americans or Muslims. You shouldn’t either. Gypsies have their own little world.
Seriously J, do some research. And again, I’m speaking from experience. In fact, why don’t you take the next flight out to Romania and find that you have no money left because they picked it from your pocket. They live their lives as theives.
You can call me whatever you want (not that it means anything to me), but you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about. So, take it up with someone else 🙂
trust me, we opened our minds enough, they were offered jobs, but they refused them, they don’t even let their kids in schoool more than 1 or 2 years. of course there’s a few of them who live like nomads and make pottery which they exchange for food, but those are few only. the majority just steal from people. tell me now, why should i accept that? i’m not against the working gypsies, i’m against those who steal and are lasy, no matter the race.
Princess Pea,
I can’t go on about this, because it’s really difficult to convince someone of something when they have never seen it for themselves. Again, generally people don’t compare this group to blacks or gays (or any other minority) because it’s not the same thing.
They’re not being discriminated against because they are Roma, perse. People don’t like them (as I mentioned before) because their whole culture revolves around stealing, and like someone else mentioned, they live off of the Romanian government and don’t contribute to society.
““Ethan does not know of what he speaks, just like Madonna doesn’t.” That is not proper English…”
Oh really? How is that not proper English? It’s an expression. Just playing devil’s advocate.
I know nothing about Roma, but it sounds like efforts at getting them some education might be a good start. Education tends to help people to not steal.
This is not a minority persecuted based on the color of their skin, language or religion. They are despised because they lie, cheat and steal as a way of life. Hawke can say what he likes, but if he spent more than twenty minutes with a group of Romas, he’d be wondering where his wallet went.
But Katyusha, that’s exactly my point. People know better than to talk in blanket statements about a whole group of people as if they are ALL the same and ALL EVIL when it comes to black or gays. I’m not comparing GAYS to ROMA, but I am comparing the way that YOU are talking about them to the way that people talk about other minorities. See the difference? Also, when I posted, you hadn’t made a single point about “their culture” yet… go back up and read. (Comment 1: those guys are dumb and I know better; Comment 2(#4) I know what I’m talking about and I’m not a racist; Comment 3(#8): No really, I know what I’m talking about) As for lola’s comment… I live in a country where everyone gets medical care. Even if they have no job and never have. Even if they’re CRAZY or a CRIMINAL. That point was lost on me.
Katyusha- you have a very biased and seemingly uninformed view. Gypsies are treated as the lowest rung of a caste system, and with respect to the ethnically cleansed crazy governments of some Eastern European countries, there are many examples of genocide with respect to gypsy populations.
As for a culture of stealing, I’m willing to bet that if given a place in society, such cultural phenomenon would be drastically reduced.
If Madonna, Ethan Hawke and his mummy think a caste system and or genocide is unjust- they have a right to speak out.
I haven’t seen gypsies with my own eyes, I admit. But going on what I know from my own research and the limited articles written about modern-day gypsies, not the fantasy, romantic bohemian gypsies that people love to imagine, but about honest to god, real-life gypsies, they sound like human cockroaches.
I’m on Katyusha, Andrea and Lola’s side.
From what I’ve read, the Roma are, uh, “problematic” and have no interest whatsoever in participating in the broader society of any country they live in. This is particularly so in Romania apparently.
@J, while I’m not casting my vote one way or the other, I just wanted to mention that they choose NOT to be part of mainstream society, which is why they maintain their own language, system of laws, etc.
Princess Pea,
I understand what you’re saying. There’s a chance I’m not being very clear either, and I apologize. If you look at RobN’s post, that’s the gist, and she’s doing a better job explaining.
@Juice
The problem is, Gypsies don’t WANT a place in society…They pretty much isolate themselves. Like someone else said, they pull their kids out of school and don’t want jobs offered to them. For the life of me, I can’t figure why they’d want to live this way, yet they do. They then complain that they are persecuted. It seems like they bring it upon themselves.
DEAR GOD.
I am Romanian, educated and a highly tolerant person. I like gays, Muslims, blacks, whatever, I make no difference … except when it comes to gypsies. So people who compare with other “minorities” have absolutely no clue what they are talking about and they are truly offending all the other groups.
I have been living in Romania my entire life and I will describe you my encounters with gypsies:
– they kidnapped a friend’s little girl. then mutilated her (broke her legs) and made her beg on the street. this is not an isolated case, they are known for mutilating even their own children and kidnapping kids. I see them every single day.
– they are extremely dirty, you would not believe. they do their needs everywhere, even in the middle of the city.
– they are begging, trying to steal from you and when they don’t succeed they will curse you / spit you. also, if you do give them money, they will harass you until you give them everything you have.
– they do not want to work and they do not want to educated – schools and universities have special places for them and they remain unoccupied every single year. yet they complain that they don’t get jobs.
– people are terrified of this kind of gypsies – and there are many like these! – no place is peaceful / clean / safe when one of them is around.
– just these weeks a family of gypsies occupied an abandoned house near my flat. 3 families in my building already moved. Why? because now the playground is full of ****, they are screaming in the middle of the night, fighting all the time, the guy beats his wife and throws her out all the time, people can’t get any sleep, they occupied all the green space and converted it into their garden, throw the garbage there, make fire (in the middle of the city!), plus their 20 kids are always trying to steal from my neighbours and touching people’s private parts, I am not kidding people. and these are not exceptions, it’s just like this all the time.
People, do you know about all these? Does Ethan know? How can anyone from the outside talk to us about tolerance? How? Please people, teach me how to be more tolerant and I will!
Just my two cents, seeing the comments so far. First of all I am Romanian born and living in Romania so a) I know what I’m talking about and b) pardon me J if my English’s not perfect.
Now, about the Roma. First of all, the reason they are not integrated is simply because they don’t want to. In the time of the late dictator they were forced to get jobs and let their children in school. Nothing major actually changed and after the revolution they happily returned to their own way of life. Stealing from people and not letting their children in school.
Someone said “if given a place in society, such cultural phenomenon would be drastically reduced”, they had it and nothing changed. Even as we speak they have a number of privileges (extra places in college, they only have to ask for them, whereas I and the rest had to take a serious exam for that — yet how many gipsies to you think have ever went to college, even so?). Truth is they do not want to be a part of our society, period.
Something else: since we entered EU they have free right of living in any other EU country. They have became notorious in Italy for stealing and raping women, and also they have been sent home from France, being given money so as never to return there again (and they took the money and yet returned, but that’s another story). Now, if they were the friendly and easy to live with people that you think them to be (and us, Romanians, the bad people treating them bad without a fault of their own) how would you explain the reaction of these more civilized countries? Truth is they are a plague (I know it’s a harsh word, but they are), and they ruin everything they touch.
Speaking of that, another example: years ago the government at the time took some of them off the streets and let them live in a building (for free) similar to a four star hotel (same level of comfort). What do you think they did? They stripped the place in the first few weeks and took flight, never to return again.
“Gypsies are treated as the lowest rung of a caste system”?? No they are not. I have no words to say how wrong that is (if anything they are positively discriminated). I know that I can speak ’til kingdom comes of the way _they_ treat us, and not the other way around, but I know you (as Americans, as people who have never met them) will probably never believe me so I will stop here.
(and yes, there indeed are some cases of gipsies who do work, and act normally, but usually these are ashamed themselves to identify with their former people; the vast majority of the gipsies are either incredibly rich — literally covered in gold, with houses and cars like you wouldn’t believe, though they have never worked a day in their lives — or incredibly poor, with about ten children each — and, of course, never have worked a day in their life so others mush provide everything for them).
And I’m only just getting started…
Thank you, Tryit.
Now J doesn’t just have to take MY word for it.
I live in Paris and we have a fairly large Gypsy problem in my neighborhood. The problem is that Gypsys (according to their religion) feel they have a God given righ to steal. I’m not making this up. Because according to religious legend they took the stakes out of Jesus’s hands and feet after crusifixion God told them they get to steal.
And they do.
They set up camps anywhere. They let their dogs to unleashed, they ignore all the laws everybody else follows.
The government in France bends over backwards for this group and they take and take and take but never give back.
I’m Arab myself. The other night I attended a Halloween party that had black people, arabs, asians, white people, mixed people…everybody just having a good time. But we all have a mutual dislike of gypsies. It’s not hating a race, it’s hating a culture.
Rom people who have decided to be productive, not steal my electricity by popping tend in the field next door (then threatening to kill my husband because he removed the wire –not kidding), and do something are fine by me. I don’t hate the ethnicity.
But ask anybody who has any knowledge of living near a gypsy camp or next door to gypsies. They will tell you the same shit.
And it’s not comparable to hating gays or blacks or arabs unless these groups stuck together, never branched out, shirked local laws, stole with no shame, and begged as A WAY OF LIFE (very different from letting 19 hijackers define and entire race of people).
Ethan Hawlk needs to come and see not just what living as a Gyspy is like. But what is involved for tax paying, responsible residents who must live NEAR them and have their houses broken into, their children kidnapped, their dogs killed and so forth.
I want Gyspys to integrate. I want them to put their kids in school and get jobs and be responsible citizens. I want them to teach their kids not to steal, to follow the laws. But they dont want that. So in turn, I dont want them around me.
It’s not the ethnicity. It’s the culture.
I’m an American, but have visited and worked in several European countries with large populations of Roma. I won’t make blanket statements (positive or negative) about these people or thier culture because I don’t have all the information. However, from what I saw this group (and the discrimination they face) shouldn’t be compared to other minorities – it is not the same. It seemed to me that a large part of the discrimination they face is related more to their behavior and their treatment of others outside their group, and less to their race or way of life.
-just an opinion
Stop arguing in a circle. Those who are unaware, consider yourselves warned. You can’t win an argument with people who have never lived or traveled abroad. Don’t bother. What is disturbing here is that Hawke and his mom are both Americans. Is it not stylish to support your fellow citizens? Madonna and Ethan make me sick.
What about the seniors of the US that can’t afford their medications? What about the millions of animals put to death in shelters all over this country? What about the colonies of feral cats that need to be fixed and fed, struggling just to get by? What about the homeless problem in our cities? Would it kill Ethan, Oprah or Madonna to raise some dollars to pay for some trap, spay and release certificates to help some souls out over here so we don’t have so many kill shelters on our collective conscience? Raise some bucks for womens’ shelters to escape domestic violence? Do NOT support these celebrities. I recently removed my email address from Oprah’s newsletter and you should too.
I think that any time someone uses a term like “human cockroaches”, they lose a lot of credibility– that’s one of the terms the Interhamwe in Rwanda used for the Tutsis they exterminated. It’s especially distasteful since many thousands of Roma were killed along with Jews in the Holocaust.
That said, the Roma situation is extremely complex, and to act like the people who live near them and dislike them are all crazed racists is naive. They have cultural mores that make them pretty unpleasant to live around– although that does not, of course, excuse crimes against them. It can go a long way to explaining why few people who live around them take their sides, though.
Mary Ann,
Sorry for using the term, I didn’t know it was used in such a way. But I’ve heard people refer to the Roma as vermin before. Their words, not mine.
Thank you Tryit for your post.
Also, they are not discriminated against because they are poor and uneducated, they choose that lifestyle. Tryit explained beautifully the sentiments of most people in Romania regarding the gypsies. Those who are sympathetic to them have no idea what the Romanian people put up with. The majority of crime is committed by the gypsies. They are also known to kidnap children and sell them into slavery.
Tryit: Thank you for your firsthand account. And I hope those who started throwing around accusations without any actual knowledge to back them up will take your experiences to heart.
Oh Please…Ethan and Madonna…Did anyone include that Madonna’s concerts have either been lacklustre in sales lately, and the fact that an entire stage collapsed and killed crew? Madonna tries to prop up her PR just like all celebrities by focusing on other issues, instead of the rampant issues in the United States: Healthcare is a GOOD place to start.
The reason why the Roma are loathed isn’t because of their ethnicity per se. The Roma are all over Europe, but the fact that they’re happy taking social security payments without working or even bothering to work. Already, as has been all over the news around the world, it can be seen that it begins from a young age; children are expected to be spoken for, and there are many girls who are pregnant before they reach the legal age of sexual consent.
It’s like the saying (and I’m not religious), “God helps those who help themselves.” Substitute God for the state, and that’s what governments should be doing, helping those who actually make an effort to help themselves, not those who are happy to sponge off the state and, the citizens because the state obtains funds from its citizens.
Also, I wonder about the mentality of those who still call the Roma ‘gypsies’. The term gypsy stirs up a lot of connotations and stereotypes however, the Roma need to wake up and face the real world. We’re not living in the world of three or four centuries ago where people could live in different places without considering energy utility rates.
There are Roma in England now who think it perfectly fine to use a landowners water without paying. So it’s this mentality and stereotype that the Roma perpetuate, that futile romantic idea of, ‘my home is under the stars,’ that needs to be put into perspective. It’s just not right to use another’s resources because you think you have a right, even though you don’t work.
This culture isn’t unique in its attitude (of it having the right to sponge off the state). In Australia, Aborigines are doing this each day and they begin from a young age. I used to live in an urban area that was practically an urban center for Aboriginals in Sydney and each day, without fail, begging for money in whatever way or form. Frankly, these people don’t want to integrate, but they’re happy receiving dole payments. If you walk into most universities in Australia, you’ll rarely find any indigenous students. The Roma are similar.
Personally, I think the solution is the simplest solution – restrain social security payments until they get some sort of job, even if it’s part-time and if they’re caught stealing, restrain payments again, use negative reinforcement.
Also, for those mentioning ‘caste systems’. The caste system isn’t imposed by the state, but you’re speaking as though it is imposed by some external element. In India, the caste system is reinforced by the Indians themselves. And as a historical side note, the Rom are (historically) linked to India. It’s said that they originated from India more than a thousand years ago. Just thought I’d mention that.
A gypsy once put her finger in my gelato outside the Duomo in Florence. That was such a mean thing to do. she was up in my face, yammering something and then she put her finger in my gelato and ruined it.
“there are many girls who are pregnant before they reach the legal age of sexual consent”
Just a little story to demonstrate this point.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,26292647-401,00.html
It is much more helpful to hear why you believe what you do instead of declaring others incompetent. I have learned a lot from these other posters, so thank you for sharing your experiences and taking the time to educate other people (like me) who did not know much about this.
Also, Americans (especially ones on the internet) are not know for their grammar and spelling skills. Seeing some one consistently use there, their, they’re correctly makes me question if they are American more than bad grammar. Sadly comments with bad spelling, bad grammar, illogical arguments and personal attacks (U r stupid) seem more likely to be American to me. I am not proud to admit that because I am an American.
Also, you don’t have to be from a particular country to offer opinions and try to help people you believe (right or wrong) deserve it. It makes much more sense to deal with the problems in your own back yard before trying to save the world. But it is better than doing nothing. So Twinkle Toes while I don’t agree with your entire argument (although you did point out very valid concerns) I do agree in a comment section debate of a gossip site, you will never win against the uneducated. They will just wear you down, you will present facts and they will call names. It is not worth getting sucked into.
anna, that comment made me laugh out loud.
i have been bugged by gypsies for money plenty of times. i have been grabbed at by old gypsy ladies in the street even though i didn’t want my fortune told. i have plenty of friends who have been robbed by gypsies in various european locations.
but, i have also allowed gypsies into my home (the one in europe. i’m not a native of the USA…) and given them something to drink when they come by trying to sell me useless crap. i’ve even bought some of their useless crap. they’re just people. some are idiots and some are cool, just like anyone else.
while child stealing and mutilation are not, unfortunately, figments of a racist imagination (i have seen mangled children who clearly were not gypsies begging for the gypsies–but that was 20 years ago), i really can’t believe that that still goes on. for all of the gypsies can get up to, i still like them. AND–their music is amazing!
I won’t enter into this discussion, I understand many people’s disappointment with the Roma people for refusing to help themselves when they have been given the opportunity. however things like this are what I find disturbing:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/27/world/europe/27hungary.html?scp=1&sq=eastern+europe%2C+roma&st=nyt
yes, this is in hungary, not romania. and it sounds like both sides are just as violent and horrible to each other.
True nothing will change until BOTH SIDES decide THEY WANT to. I can also see how maybe the Roma are not willing to trust “mainstream society” b/c when s*** goes down they will be the first to loose those jobs, and be blamed for problems….just a thought.
It does sound like Ethan Hawke’s mother’s charity is at least attempting helping. because if you can educate the children maybe, they will learn that getting an education, and finding self respect for themselves outside of what they have been brought up in, they can change things.
i really feel for the children being brought up in this world knowing nothing else.
@ Bete, if the girls are pregnant before the legal age of consent that makes it statutory rape…which means you are blaming the victim for the crime. just wanted to point that out and again, how does increased education and a foundation that is aimed at helping all these accusations people are throwing around a bad thing?
Thank you to Ethan Hawke and his Mother for their support. I wonder if they have Romany heritage themselves. I am not sure if Madonna has done a good thing or a bad thing, I wonder at her motives if it was a gimic. Having said that she has used her fame to bring attention to the oppresion of Roma in eastern Countries. It is a shame she doesn’t highlight her beloved Italy who burned down a Gypsy camp 2 years ago. Also her ex husband Guy Ritchie made the film ‘Snatch’ which highlighted the term ‘Pikie’ which is a very racist term to a Romany. It is such a typicle racist comment to say all Romanies are on benefits and they take farmers water. Oh come off it, most Real Rom in Britain have settled down and either live in houses or settled on sites. Being Romany isn’t a lifestyle choice it is in our DNA. Whether we are in caravans or houses. The problem is many of us have Romany heritage and have mainstream jobs and live in houses. We hear the nasty comments and racism. Because people don’t realise we are Romany. No we don’t all walk around with a tambourine!!!! I am Romany and I am proud. proud that my ancestors survived centuries of oppression simply for being a Romany, my great great great grandfather was branded simply for that!!!!!! We have gone thru all that and we are still here.
I know there are some very famous entertainers who have Romany heritage. I just wish they would COME OUT and be open about it. They don’t because of the fear of prejudice.
In the Holocaust up to 2 million Romanies across Europe were murdered and experimented on.
But, where many victims of the Holocaust were helped after the war the Romanies weren’t, they are still treated terrible. In the Czech Republic they are forced to live on a toxic dump, every child has lead poisoning and is dieing. The United Nations are trying to do something but they have spent so long doing anything the children are affected and dying.
The Romanies are a hated race becuase they have always been immigrants, they have no country to call home. It’s the nature of their race. For many who have settled they have to keep their ethnicity secret. Many Romanys in America have to pass themselves off as Latin American. In the distant past Romanies were slaves and deported to USA from Europe. It is only now because of the internet that many Romanys are learning about the plight of their race and we are worried and also very angry. The number of Romanies murdered in the Holocaust is only being highlighted now, it has taken 60 years. I only learned recently that the Nazi’s interogated British POW’s to find out where English Romanies lived as, if they had invaded Britain, they would have known where to find British Rom. That would have included my Mother, so yes, I do sympathise with the plight of the Romanies. The prejudice against Romanies is the last bastion of socially acceptable racism.
i worked in Transylvania with the Roma babies-some were hardly picked up due to prejudice-but conversley there are areas where there is little to no discrimination-its an overhang from the old regime
Tryit explain it perfectly.I don’t consider myself racist but i Hate gipsies.I live in Italy and we are full of them.They are stealing begging ,insulting ,spitting on people….they poo in front of their places and they’re dirty as hell.Then you see them driving big nice clean cars big suvs…I wouldn’t call that a culture.Sorry but I really don’t.
Further to my comment earlier, many of the Romanian Roma children are taken away from their parents and placed in orphanages, where they are mis treated and abused. Many children and babies were the first to be used for testing early Aids treatments. Many had developed AIDS in the orphanages and then they were left all day in their cots with no comfort or support, just ignored and given the basic amount of care. In the Czech republic ALL Roma children have to go to schools for children with special needs. How do you expect people to behave if they are treated like animals. Just put in Romanian orphanage for an image search to see what the conditions are like, and go to http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/feature-stories/europes-roma-community-still-facing-massive-discrimination-20090408
I live in Sweden where Romanis enjoy more freedom and equality than they have ever enjoyed in Romania. I have lots of friends with Romani background. They follow the law, pay taxes, work, go to school, etc.
The reason why many people of Romani ethnicity in Romania don’t follow the law is because the country doesn’t recognise them as humans. I bet most of you would have a very hard time following the law if you were constantly discriminated, persecuted and blamed for things that other people have done just because you share the same ethnic background (aka, racism). It’s known as survival.
And please don’t reply with stupid comments like “you’ve never been to Romania” or “Anyone from actual European or slavic countries who actually have come across gypsies will tell them that”. You’re the reason the Romani people in Romania are generally having a tough time integrating into society. You’re a racist.
I don’t have any 1st hand knowledge about the Romma, but I do have 1st hand knowledge about blanket statements.
If anyone had said “all Irish are drunks” or “all Germans are Nazis” (my 2 ethnic origins); people would be toting pitchforks. To summarize: blanket statements are bad. the end
I agree with Maria Ibbs, the last bastion of racism is against the Romanies, and it is all over the world, not only in Rumania. I was in Rome on the day they burned out the Roma, just a few miles from the ancient city, and almost a year to the day, there was an earthquake, and many of the non Gypsy Romans then knew what it was like to have to live in tents. Who said there is not a God, he pays debts.
I loved reading the comments more than the actual article. It’s given me a lot to think about, on both sides.
Also, as a law student, I can’t let this go: How the HELL does statutory rape blame the victim? My CrimLaw prof would have hit me with his shoe if I’d displayed such patent misunderstanding of the law in his class. Jeez.
Maria Ibbis–
Nobody is trying to discriminate against the Rom who have intigrated. That’s exactly what most of Europe wants. We want them to keep their kids in school, to be educated.
But there is being discriminated against, and bringing it on yourself. I’ll highlight an analogy.
In America there was a group of women called the Van Dykes. They sprung up at a time of womens lib movement. They decided that as a rule men wern’t worth talking to (and refused to talk to them) unless they were changing the oil in their cars, or servicing them in some way (not sexually as they were..well..the name says it all).
Point is, yes, women in America absolutly have dealt (and still deal) with discrimination. But did the Van Dykes change anything by their self-inflicted isolation? No. They probably just came off as angry bitches to most rational, levelheaded people. Hence, if you’re a perfectly nice man of 30, you’re not going to waste your time with or worrying abut a Van Dyke.
Same with the gypsies. I pay taxes here in Paris. I work, I respect laws, I respect my fellow citizens. I don’t steal, I act polietly in public.
On the other hand, I’ve never, ever met a gypsy who did. They take tax money, steal from neighbors, pay no attention to laws, and harass the people around them.
There are a few examples of Rom entering normal life. And I dont think any of my friends or I would have a problem with those people. But I’ve never met one. And quite frankly, the way gypsies have shunned the outside world and refused to make contact, I really don’t think it’s up to us put out the effort here.
They flauted societies common laws and expect the world to, what? Embrace them? Nope. It’s on them now. They have to make the changes. And I hope most do. But it’s not the responsibility of the Romanian, French, or Italian citizens to welcome with open arms a group that has cnsistantly lied, stolen and taken advantage of them.
It’s on the Gypsies to prove they are worthy of trust.
But if you want to fix it, you have my full support.
the other prob is when anyone is buried you need one or both parents signatures on the death certificate-i can’t tell you what they do with the bodies of Roma and abandoned children but it would break your heart
Peach.
The Roma in Eastern Europe have been persecuted for centuries. They have no trust for the Government and the people. There way of life is not something the Romanis have just thought up, it’s their culture. Do you agree that the Native American Indians should have adapted and the Aboriginees should adapt. Or do you think it OK to persecute them because they are different. I don’t agree that people should steal and beg, but the people in eastern Europe have been treated abominably before, during and since ww2. They went thru the Holocaust and have been treated like vermin ever since. Is it any wonder that they behave badly. As for Italy the Governement turned down EU funding for Roma, to help them settle, does that sound like a country that wants them to intergrate?
I will give you a typicle point of how Romanies are treated in the UK. Until about 50 years ago, Romanys travelled around the country working on farms and were an integral part of country life, they sold goods and were called Hawkers, maybe there is more to Ethan Hawkes link with Rom than you all realise.
As mechanisation took over, the suburbs increased and suddenly when the Rom were no longer needed. They were then told that there was no room for them.
I am Rom, I live in a house and worked for an International merchant bank. My son goes to Uni studying Architecture. My daughter is studying to be a doctor. But my children know better than to openly tell anyone at school about their culture. YOU ONLY SEE THE ROMANIES WHO YOU CAN POINT THE FINGER AT AND CONDEMN. IF I LIVED IN A CARAVAN INSTEAD OF A HOUSE WOULD THAT MAKE ME A DIFFERENT PERSON. NO IT WOULDN’T. I HAVE FAMILY WHO LIVE IN CARAVANS.
Would you dream of saying I hate the Turks they are all drug dealers, or I hate Black men they are all pimps!!!!!!
Dear Kaiser
“Gypsies (Roma) seem to be a culturally, politically and socially oppressed minority within Romania” is far from being true. The issue is very complex, useless to get into it here, but this much I can tell you: it is not so. I invite you here anytime to see things with your own eyes :).
Romanies were slaves, were hung for no crime but being a Gypsy, were deported upon capture for being gypsies, and that is in the uk. We were sent to the West Indies BEFORE the black slaves, we were sent to Australia, America, the West Indies, Chile, Cuba, India, as slaves.
Do you know that a Gypsy saved the founding fathers from starvation, married a Indian Chiefs daughter and went on to own Rhode Island. He has descendants in the highest of American society. He was a Gypsy, HE WAS MY ANCESTOR.
Many millionares in the UK have Romany ancestry, many entertainers in the UK and in fact all over the globe have Romany Ancestors, here are a few for your list of thieves and robbers:
Sir Michael Caine
Sir Roger Moore
Elvis Presley
Dame Helen Mirren
Bob Hoskins
Joe Longthorne
Sir Tom Jones
Sir Sean Connery
Sir Charles Chaplin
So, are these people thieves and robbers, sorry I forgot the Rumanian, Mother Theresa of Calcutta, now I believe awaiting sainthood
We were executed, tortured, raped, beaten, executed, and no one admits it is racial prejudice. OK, so they steal, but good does come from the opressed, given a chance
You forgot to mention, Tracy Ulman, Picasso, Eric Cantona, Yul Brynner, Jose Feliciano, Robert Duvall. All have Romany Heritage. Mother Teresa was from Macedonia not Romania, but she did have Rom heritage.
It’s not something you can dismiss by saying they aren’t Romany because they don’t/didn’t live the lifestyle. You can’t pick and choose who you want to be Gypsy and who you dont. If you have Romany ancestors you are Romany/part Romany. The same as you aren’t Romany by simply living in a caravan.
We have been in the UK for 500 years. We didn’t intergrate because we were persecuted. Even now there is racism against Romanys in the UK. But we have suffered nothing compared to what the German and Eastern European Romanies/Sinti have suffered.
As for Romania, I know about the Orphanages, I knew the Person who went out there with the , he tested AIDS drugs on the children in the Orphanages. SO DON’T TELL ME I NEED TO GO THERE TO SEE.
http://www.faqs.org/abstracts/Zoology-and-wildlife-conservation/WHO-concern-over-new-drug-Pollution-as-Czech-public-enemy-number-one.html
Thank you Georgina, I stand corrected, Mother Theresa WAS from Macedonia of Romany origins, not Rumanian. What amazes me is that the oppressors are insulted when called Nazis or Racists, but what else are they? It is a very sad world when people cant even be honest with themselves. I am a Romany, I am a neurologist, and you know what, my patients are so desperate they couldnt care if I was a chimpanzee so long as I can cure them, but if they knew I was a Romany, who knows, I dont tell them. Most of us dont tell anyone, and like the Jews, we have our own culture at home.
Peach,
The trouble with your way of thinking is, you think you can tell a Gypsy just by the way they look and / or act, for every one you recognise, there are a hundred out there who you dont, we are not tambourine banging stereotypes, we are a race of people, and like any other race, we have people of all types within our community. We are not all thieves, we are not all robbers.
Look at it this way, Rumanians are treated, and regarded, as a lower form of life, your own posting says that is your thought on the matter, so, if you were treated as a lower form of life, (something you have never experienced), would you come back and ask for more, or would you decide it is safer within your own community. Kick a dog and it will cower, kick it long enough and it will come back and bite you. YOU ARE GIVING YOU OPINION ON A SUBJECT THAT YOU CAN NEVER UNDERSTAND UNLESS YOU ARE IN THAT PERSONS SHOES
When I say Rumanians, I of course refer to Rumanian Gypsies.
Hello from Wexford Ireland, I enjoyed the article. Very Good.
I just stumbled across your blog. I am a long-time Gypsy activist. I applaud any celebrity trying to help Europe’s highly marginalized minority. The fate of the Gypsies/Roma, past and present, is Europe’s true heart of darkness.
I will study the posted blogs carefully, and I will start to contribute.
Sonia Meyer
@Maria Ibbis
Look, you are obviously an educated gypsy. I don’t like to use the term “roma” it is confusing, I think the term gypsy is just fine. And many Romanian gypsies use it proudly.
So… of course you have a biased view upon your cultural heritage in general.
I am a educated Romanian citizen myself, working as an architect. “Tryit”
commented perfectly the situation in Romania.
Here is a Fact: the majority of gypsies in Eastern Europe live in Romania. By the simplest 5-th grade school logic means that they thrive there by the result of tolerance of lifestyle, not oppression.
As a longtime Gypsy activist, I would like to make a comment about the Gypsies in Romania. Of all the countries in Europe, Romania was the toughest for the Gypsy people. They were traded as slaves up to 1865. In 1900 plus Ceaucescu, had a masterplan, not that different from Hitler, in wanting to create a master race and a permanent underclass. He forced women to produce many children, filling Romanian orphanages with unwanted or children parents could not afford, many of them were Gypsies or Roma. Madonna did what any decent human should do, have feelings for the sufferings of her fellow human being. I am very happy to see that Ethan Hawke is also one of those defenders of equal human rights for all. Sonia Meyer
In reply to Maria Ibbis, tellthetruth.
I am not a Gypsy/Roma. I am European, I have lived all over the world. I have lived with Gypsies in many countries. I have not been to Romania.
I am here to shine a light on the truth. The truth is often obscure to those closest to its source. When I returned to Germany after having spent the war underground with resisters and partisans, the German people were in denial of what they had done to their fellow human beings. Some still are. I saw these atrocities with my own eyes.
Again, my aim is to educate, try to get to the truth. Make this a better world, we will all benefit. Inequality leads to war, now terrorism. Understanding and mutual respect is everything. I hope we can have a meaningful exchange. Sonia
look stealing is wrong. I agree. but people should not have to work if they don’t have to. and everyone should have access to free healthcare. to discriminate against gypsies because they don’t work is crazy. are we living in slavery days?
Google the wiki article called “anti-ziganism” for the history of gypsy discrimination in europe and you will see that Romania’s treatment of Gypsies has been almost tame compared with all the rest of europe’s supposedly more civilized and developed nations. Other nations used forced sterilization, genocide, and all manner of horrible things (hence why Romania has the largest population of gypsies today). We treated them well by comparison–so don’t think Romanians are to blame more than other nations.
Romanians hate the way gypsies have begun (only in the last few decades) to use Romany as their ethnonym and the confusion and closeness to our ethnicity has caused our entire nation to be associated with them. How would Americans feel if they were all considered blacks because of their Afram population (which is comparable in percentage). We refuse to call them Romany because they are Gypsies and that is that—they love being confused with real Romanians and they are shaming us all over Europe with their antics. They actually have equal rights and similar advantages and government programs that aboriginal peoples enjoy in Australia and America and Canada–while NOT deserving it because they are NOT native to Europe and genetics has proven their link to India beyond a doubt!
I think we should give them a province of Romania and let them develop their own society along their own unique ways–but guess what–they would NEVER go for it because most of them need a host population to parasitise and without such, they would be forced to do something pro-social, which is completely against their culture. They want to live their own way-fine, do it somewhere else–people should not move to places and try to change the host peoples–THEY should assimilate.
I am sick of being called a gypsy by every ignorant european who doesn’t know any better–sorry, they are not good citizens in the majority of cases–discrimination in their case is more warranted and deserved than ANY other peoples of this earth!
LOL. I have been in splits after reading people’s experiences with Romanis on this blog even though I sympathize with them.
I am from India and am familiar with this. The Romas of Europe are similar to “lambadi” or Domari caste in India. They are nomadic people who perform street acrobatics, work in crematoriums, sell “magic” Ayurvedic potions that will cure one of impotency 🙂 and what not.
Trying to integrate them into mainstream won’t work. They are just different and “like that only”:-) Leave them the way they are and everything will be fine 🙂
Well I have read a few of these comments since I last commented. Alex, you are a joke. Your whole reply is a Racist’s rant. You are saying Romanys in Romania cant be called Romany because the word sounds like Romanian. Because other people get confused Romanys can’t use the word. Great. I applaud Sonia Meyers comments, I had heard that Romany people in the war fought in the resistance. Jay, at last someone who realises that we are different, we can’t help it, we just think differently. Yes, over the years we have been street entertainers, in some countries we still are. Many well known entertainers have Romany heritage, maybe its that that made them want to entertain in the first place.
Thats’ the only analogy. We are different and we think differently. But given a chance we can achieve as much as anyone else and sometimes a lot more.
Well I have read a few of these comments since I last commented. Alex, you are a joke. Your whole reply is a Racist’s rant. You are saying Romanys in Romania cant be called Romany because the word sounds like Romanian. Because other people get confused Romanys can’t use the word. Great. I applaud Sonia Meyers comments, I too had heard that Romany people in the war fought in the resistance.
Jay, at last someone who realises that we are different, we can’t help it, we just think differently. Yes, over the years we have been street entertainers, in some countries we still are. Many well known entertainers have Romany heritage, maybe its that that made them want to entertain in the first place. We are different and we think differently. But given a chance we can achieve as much as anyone else and sometimes a lot more.
I know that Romany children in Romani were taken forcibly taken from their parents and then abandoned in Orphanages, the neglect they recieved left them with lifelong learning/mental issues. If that is what Romania calls tolerance. Well, I need say no more.
Can anyone answer one thing, after the war, why was no Gypsy called to give evidence at the Nuremberg Trials, even though p to two million had been tortured and murdered. Many were murdered even before they got o the concentration camps, Many were never registered as they couldn’t sign their names and were registered with an X.
What was built on the camp called Lety in Czech Repl, a pig farm. That was said to be the worse concentration camp of them all. And it was mainly for Gypsys. Have most people heard of it, NO they have not. A PIG FARM that shows the respect that is shown to Gypsys in Eastern Europe.
No .45 Lady Garden.
Why don’t you tell us how the poor Romany children’s bodies are treated. What’s more important is how they were abused when they were alive, is it any surprise that they are treated with no respect when dead.
For these poor childrens sake please tell what you know, then we can judge for ourselves if there is prejudice against the Roma in Europe. The funny thing is the Romanies in the US usually said and still say they are part Native American or Latino rather than suffer the prejudice of saying they are Gypsy.
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