Jon Voight covers the new issue of Cigar Aficionado. I actually try to avoid Voight’s interviews for the most part because it honestly pains me to see this former 1970s hippie/hellion turn into such a far-right-wing nutjob and I don’t want to give his political thoughts a platform. But! Voight isn’t just talking politics with Cigar Aficionado. He’s also talking about his other favorite subject, his daughter Angelina Jolie and her six kids. So… I guess it’s worth it, maybe. Some highlights:
He loved Jolie’s ‘Unbroken’: “I love my daughter, and I’m very impressed by her directing. I thought Unbroken was brilliant. Now I’d like to be directed by her.”
His grandchildren: “I’m crazy about her and my grandchildren. I love to play with my grandchildren, when I see them… I’m not an armchair grandfather — I’m interactive… The happiest sound for me is sitting in my house and hearing children and their laughter coming from the field.”
His Catholicism: “I think when we want to do something for the good — to help other people — we get the help we need. At one point in my career, I made that commitment, and I got help… The hardest lesson is to acknowledge my own weakness and to forgive myself for my mistakes. And to overcome my meaner leanings. But self-forgiveness is a big deal.”
Being conservative in Hollywood: “There are a lot of conservatives in Hollywood, and they’re not very welcome. It’s a big surprise that we’ve come to this juncture where people with patriotic thoughts could not find a home in Hollywood.”
What he thinks of progressives: “I think the word ‘progressive’ is a very devious term. It was created as a substitute for ‘communist.’ What they propose is the reverse of progress. It’s some that that does taste of communism and Karl Marx’s pernicious philosophy.”
It always bugs me when conservative-leaning Hollywood actors bitch about how Hollywood doesn’t like them because of their politics. I mean, poor put-upon Jon Voight, the Oscar-winning actor currently starring in an award-winning prestige drama on premium cable! Poor Republican dude, people will still hire him and give him great work when he’s well into his 70s, he’s such a martyr! And I absolutely loathe this: “It’s a big surprise that we’ve come to this juncture where people with patriotic thoughts could not find a home in Hollywood.” Shut it. Just shut it. As for the stuff about his grandchildren… I would be very interested in knowing just how often Angelina allows her dad to see the kids.
Cover courtesy of Cigar Aficionado, WENN.
Someone let him know the Cold War is over. I think he’s lost in 1952.
He sounds less like a “conservative” and more like a fascist with each passing interview.
So true. Conservatives (Republicans) talk so much about upholding the constitution and yet more of them than any other collection of Americans would accept a military takeover of their government (for the “right” reasons of course). It’s no wonder they call black when they see white and declare communists when they hear progressive. It is the way their minds work, it is the way their minds filter and they assume everyone else does the same.
The Cold War aside, modern-day conservatism has zero basis in economic reality. Sure economics is a fuzzy “science” but at least liberals have a closer relationship with economic facts and don’t dwell in a fantasy world of libertarianism and big-business-small-gov solves everything. Does he even know what communism entails? I think it comes down to hormone imbalance in the end. I wonder if Angelina is a little conservative herself because she’s made no secret of her love of Ayn Rand, whose works remain one of the biggest poxes on literature and political science. Like Obama says, Ayn Rand is one of those writers you agree with when you’re about 18 or 19 (and slightly misanthropic).
+ 1 for mentioning the Ayn Rand thing. I’d forgotten that! I side-eye anyone who is a Rand fan, but it is particularly bizarre to think of well-known parents of being fans. John Galt wants to destroy the world to make a political point, for goodness sake! Anyone who thinks that’s a good solution is, like Ayn Rand herself, a nutter.
I read a bunch of Jolie bios back in the spring and went from being an admirer to feeling like she (maybe) has no fixed identity and is much weirder than her current PR image as a mom/humanitarian suggests. Definitely, she is capable of drastic political changes at a moment’s notice. I could totally see her “pulling a Voight” and becoming a conservative later in life. I think she gets her intensity and extremism from him, actually. They both think they can change the world by giving interviews, for one.
Well on the plus side, it’s hard to walk away from Cambodia conflating their experience of communism with that of American progressives. There’s no chance of confusing the two.
In the Vogue interview with Jolie, one of her old directors or something was yammering about how cool she was because she said she hated the “French country” vibe of Sofitel (ca. that movie she won an Oscar for). Bet she’s embarrassed about that now, or she should be. Nothing like travel to show you how ridiculous that kind of “cool” is. Presumably she got over it, since she apparently lives in…the French countryside.
Once more: “this is what happens when you forget that actors are stupid.”
You beat me to it!
And by the way Sr. Stupido, you don’t need to be a “conservative” to be patriotic. Assh*le.
That one drives me up the wall. In an actual democracy, challenging authority is the most patriotic thing a citizen can do.
Well, Voights idea of conservative is bad for most people with the same citizenship as his own. And then he calls these ideas “patriotic”. So patriotic is when it is bad for most people???? WTF???
So true….
John:
STFU
There’s probably one right-wing actor speaking out for every 25 left-wing who speak out, but yet he’s supposed to STFU?
He’s stating that progressive=communism and conservatism=patriotism. Imo he should stfu.
Okay, you’re right. Let him keep talking and continue to show how out of touch and stupid he really is.
You don’t have to be a conservative to love your country. And progressive does not equal communist.
He’s stating his opinion which is formed by his own experiences. FWIW (admittedly, probably not much) my friends who are the most far-leaning to the Left self-identity as “progressive” and are fans of Trotsky, Alinsky, and even sympathetic to the “utopian” ideals of socialism and communism. They’re major Obama fans and currently supporting Sanders. I do not engage in certain topics with them, but I love them for reasons that are more important to me than political ideologies. I value their loyalty to their friends, dedication to their family, and their unwavering generosity towards others. They are fantastic neighbors. But they ARE pseudo-communists/statists/socialists who identity as progressives. I just don’t see why Voight’s comments are offensive unless you think communism is a dirty word.
Sochan, it depends how you define ‘left wing’ and ‘socialist’ and ‘conservative’. I’ve noticed many conservatives call those who are centre, as hard left wing. To some conservatives, anything left of George Bush is being hard core socialist. In my country, Australia, we see American conservatives as being extreme-extreme-hardcore right wing. You guys would see our conservatives as being left-wing socialist loonies. Indeed, it was a conservative Prime Minister here who introduced our strict gun control laws. And, our conservatives, with the exemption of probably .07% of the maverick extreme conservatives, are all very proud of our gun laws. Imagine any conservative in America being very proud of gun control laws. Yeah, nah – ain’t going to happen. But us conservatives are deeply proud and patriotic of our strict gun control laws. Very proud. Also, to us, Obama is centre to centre-right. So I think it depends on how you define a term. Australian conservatives and American conservatives are poles apart. So remember, what you define as socialist bordering on communist, another defines that as centre. And what you may deem as conservative, others define it as flat earth dangerous extremism conservatism.
When he says that people who are liberal or progressive aren’t patriotic and hate America then yes he should STFU. He can have whatever opinions he wants but to smear an entire large group of people is wrong.
If I went to Voight and told him that I thought he was stupid and ignorant because he was a conservative he’d flip out.
Tarsha, I’m in America commenting on an American website about an American actor. So, what Australia or anyone else thinks or defines labels really doesn’t matter to me. No disrespect, but I fail to see your point. Anyway, I am tired of this topic and am moving on with my day. Have a great one!
Sochan, my point, is that what you may label someone as bordering on communist, the holder of that view may classify themselves as centre. If you read my post, I think my point was pretty obvious and self-explanatory.
I live in Kansas.. You know the state that is welcoming back the old west. Where no permits or background checks are needed to carry.. But you might want 911 on a 1 button speed dial & your attorney.. as fools play and discharge firearms in very public places now. Kansas home of the far right wing nut job so far a down the middle kinda gal is no longer welcome. Brownback, his henchmen, and a good portion of our state scare the hell out of me.. because they believe Progressive =Communism and Concervatives = Patriotism, the only true party, the right party, oh and yes the saved party because God only loves that denounce all other parties, cloak themselves in our American flag, and call in the name of Jesus on all that is holy that the Republican Party is the only true salvation. Guess in going to hell or moving.. Depends on whether I move or die whichever comes first.
No not all are that bad^^^. But I hear it and see it day in & day out, btw KS is one of the reddest states there is in the Union. 🙁
Yes. All BIGOTS need to STFU
Thank you Sochan for being the voice of reason!!
Tarsha – with all due respect and while you are entitled to your opinions, the people of Australia have absolutely no say in American politics. It is what it is.
Alicia – where did he say “people who are liberal or progressive aren’t patriotic and hate America”?
Typical right wing responses from Sochan And Kahlan – “We don’t give a flying fig for anyone else’s opinion, especially furriners. Our way or the highway.”
Since what America does affects so much of the world, I think it’s perfectly reasonable for the rest of the world to have an opinion on our politics. I noticed a couple of posters here definitely had (uninformed)opinions on life in communist countries.
“So, what Australia or anyone else thinks or defines labels really doesn’t matter to me.”
Well, that’s bloody rude.
Right-wing Americans are always going on about being the “leader of the free world” and we’re inundated with US politics and foreign policy decisions on a daily basis, yet when anyone outside your Fox-news bubble attempts to offer some perspective, you say you’re not interested.
Way to confirm to the ugly American stereotype. For the record, there are plenty of international readers on this site: from the UK to Nigeria, from Peru to Australia. It is one of the reasons I enjoy reading the comments.
Sochan,
I think the point is, while you might be an American commenting on an American actor, communism is not an American word and you do not get to define it as you please. And that if you do see all or most progressives as communists, it is not because they are, but because you’ve been conditioned to do that.
I’m actually a “progressive”, and 90% of my friends are, and none of them are into socialism/communist utopias.
EDIT:
I also strongly feel that in the US word “communist” does not actually mean “communist”.
I’m Austrian; after WWII we were divided into four governmental sections for a while: French, British, US, and then-Soviet Union. After 1955, when Austria become an independent republic, we still had plenty of neighbours living behind the Iron Curtain. I personally know people who lived under a REAL (perverted) communist regime, at the time, in Hungary. Don’t ever try to tell them that any US politician who wants free health care for everyone is a dangerous communist. They would laugh in your face and give you a goddamn education about having family members vanish over night, about being tortured in a gulag, about certain foods only being available at certain times, and only to certain people way up the hierarchy ladder, and so on.
That’s the historical part of how communism played out: it became just another form of facism, because, IMHO, the core problem of communism/marxism is that it does not take into account human nature. You cannot concentrate power without people being corrupted by it. You cannou have a communist system without it becoming perverted over time, because humans will always be human.
That being said: NOBODY, absolutely nobody except those who lost theior privileges after 1989, wants Soviet Union style communism back. Modern-day communists in Europe are mainly about social justice, and less privilege for the rich. Don’t ever try to tell a modern-day European communist that any US politician who wants free health care for everyone is a dangerous communist. They would laugh in your face.
I’m Danish and after the fall of the Soviet Union there are really not any communists left here. Hell, even the Socialist People’s Party is placed in the political centre.
BTW, sometimes certain definitions means something very different in different countries. Fx in Denmark The Left Party is actually a fairly right-wing part (but is called the left because, historically, the sat to the left of the Foreman of the Parliament/Folketinget). Liberal Alliance is actually a hard-core right-wing party that emulates the more right-wing section of the American Republican, just without the religion. The Radical Left is a centre party, once with slightly leftish leanings and now with rightish leanings. The Socialdemocratic Party is NOT socialist, it is a centre party that was once on the left.
To sum up,
Socialism is, historically, not the same as Communism. It is not simply about the ideology but also about how it organizes a society.
Liberal can mean something entirely different in other places than in America.
well said Tarsha
SusanneToo – I clearly stated to Tarsha “you are entitled to your opinions”. That said, when it comes to our political process, it is the American opinions and votes that count, not the world. You can mock me as you wish, however I do have the right to my opinion with or without your approval.
Before y’all get your GOP panties in a twist maybe go back and reread Tarsha’s comments. She wasn’t giving opinions, value judgements or trying to “have a say” on American politics, only saying that the term ‘conservative’ is subjective and doesn’t mean the same thing everywhere! Sheesh.
And seriously, I really don’t know where people allegedly find these pseudo-socialists who love Obama, the man is not on the left.
Yes, you do, as do I.
Then we agree! See who says those with political differences can’t agree? 🙂
BTW – I wouldn’t say I’m a right winger, I’m more of a middle winger.
Gretchen – my panties are exactly where they should be, thanks for your concern though! I read what Tarsha stated and responded accordingly. Have a great weekend!
Nicely put Sochan!
The line in the sand that separates proper socialists from the rest is whether they advocate nationalising the means of production, as Marx and Lenin did.
No American political figure does this, not even Bernie Sanders. Obama is further to the right, and Hillary further right still.
The only major politician in the English speaking world who advocates this is UK Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, who is further left than left wing politicians in Canada, Australia and even New Zealand.
The only people I have ever known who use the word “progressives” like Jon Voigt does are people like Jon Voigt and Fox commentators. What is wrong with wanting progress?
I am really tired of the likes of Voigt and Kelsey Grammar constantly claiming they aren’t welcome in Hollywood because of their views when they are never out of work AND their work is consistently in high profile projects. Maybe they aren’t welcome because they’re jerks?
because progress = an equal playing field and the end of white male privilege, equal rights for LGBT folks and women and minorities, unfettered access to women’s health services…you know…GOOD things.
but not good to white men like Voight. it’s the whole “take our country back (to the ’50s)” mentality.
@doofus EXACTLY. Straight White Men whining about “PC culture” and how oppressed they are by feminazis and all the minorities, they grew up thinking being a straight white male is the default version of human being, they grew up getting taught about white men’s history and white men’s achievements. they think they are getting screwed out of their god given privilege of treating non-white s and women as inferiours.
Same thing with the term liberal and being one in their eyes.
Honestly I don’t think words or terms matter to them. If we came up with a new political party it’s name would be used as a negative term in a few short months.
In the end the biggest crime is society as a whole not bowing down immediately to the Red, White, and Blue God fearing and Flag waving wealthy conservative white man. Anything opposite that is the enemy and wrong.
I like the word progressive…
I think he has been lucky all his life and forgets himself….Those who prosper whilst many do not should have the decency to Keep Quiet unless they have something generous and kind to say…
They didn’t say they don’t get work. Getting work and being welcome in Hollywood circles are two totally different things. Do you have an office co-worker who everyone else would rather not invite to drinks after work or who you hope won’t show up to the office holiday party? It’s like that.
In the past, he, Grammar, and Patricia Heaton have all claimed they can’t get work because of their political views
Maybe they were turned down or snubbed for roles they wanted and it was clear that their political ideology had a lot to do with it. Again, there’s nothing unreasonable about his claims. People are treated with prejudice all the time for various reasons. I don’t condone it – I’ve been a victim of it myself – but it happens.
Can’t get work, yet all three have huge resumes, and Grammar and Heaton were on 2 of the biggest and most lucrative shows in TV history. I weep for them and their hard knock professional life.
I like Heaton in In The Middle. Know nothing about her outside of that. Does she have conservative beliefs?
@Ferris, yes, extremely so. She did apologize to Sandra Fluke after she supported Limbaugh calling her a slut – but never reversed her position that insurance shouldn’t have to cover treatment to prevent ovarian cysts. She consistently tweets her support of the most extreme in her party
@Ferris – yes, she has been very outspoken against women’s right to abortion, planned parenthood, she opposes stem cell research, and joined Rush Limbaugh in a nasty Twitter attack on Sandra Fluke, calling her a “slut” and a “prostitute” after testifying before Congress that she believed Georgetown University should offer students free contraception. A real piece of ultra-conservative work.
That’s to bad about Heaton. I’ll just have to try to block it out when I watch her show. I think she’s a funny cometic actress.
What do you do when you like someone on TV but find out you don’t like them in real life? I always have a hard time with this, separating the “actor ” from the person. Can you support a show without showing support for the actress/ actor.
@Ferris – that’s a difficult one. I can’t separate the actor from what I know of them in real life so can’t bring myself to watch anything with Tom Cruise, for example.
“Progressive” is not always a positive thing. For example, cancer is progressive.
I’ve had cancer. And my doctors made progress in treating it conservatively. But progress is not always bad and Voigt was using it as an insult.
*shrugs* I like him. I think he’s an interesting man, and I like many actors who hold opposite views to my own. There was a time when it was considered honorable to stand by what you believe — especially in the face of overwhelming opposition. Nowadays you’re just called names.
Like cry baby. Which is what I am calling him right now. Poor rich white guy, everybody who isn’t just like you is a communist. Boo-hoo.
I’m sure he sees his grandkids TONS.
Depends on what you believe and whether your beliefs harm others.
Personally the problem is you had people who were considered the first priority in this country for so long and used their power to cater entirely to their own needs, there was backlash and now theyre pouting the world doesn’t have sympathy for them.
I don’t mind opposing view points but condescending tolerance grates and misrepresenting facts to suit a victim narrative is annoying. Furthermore it doesn’t help that many of the opposing view points seem to boil down to controlling others who don’t share the same opinion. That’s what the issue is. No one would care about Kim Davis for example if she didn’t make it her business to effect and control others.
Very nicely put.
Yes – believe what you like, live your life how you choose, but don’t impose those beliefs onto everyone else.
I don’t care for him, but I do agree that politics in this country has been reduced to name calling. He’s guilty of it, too. It’s on both sides.
It’s rampant, to epidemic proportions.
YEP!! In these comments he has been called a fascist, stupid, jerk, bigot, martyr, cry-baby, a$$hole, and narrow-minded…..all for having an opinion that others don’t agree with. SMH
I am an avid reader of these posts and comments. I’m a Republican (not religious conservative) and rarely agree with what people post here, but I enjoy learning *how* others think.
I’m a Christian conservative, but socially liberal and often times I read the comments and just agree to disagree. But today, I see someone being attacked simply for having a difference of opinion and felt the need to post. I’m pretty sure I’ll end up regretting my decision…lol.
“in the face of overwhelming opposition”? What opposition do you speak of, pray tell? As far as I can tell, the country is fairly evenly divided, so I think it’s kinda hard for either side to claim bakery in the face of “overwhelming” opposition.
He’s a good actor, can’t deny that. Such a good villain in many films.
Remember when Michael Moore criticized then-president Bush on stage at the Oscars and got booed? That was maybe 10 years ago. Now it’s swung the other way and suddenly Jon Voight is upset he’s no longer sitting at the popular table. Yet he still stars on a successful show and has received many accolades in recent years, even though he says BS like this. No one cares that you’re conservative, Jon, they don’t like you because you’re an a$$hole.
Actually, MM got booed because he criticized a sitting president during a celebration of movies. I do believe this honestly: even the most hard-core Democrat sometimes gets tired of politics every time they turn around. I have friends that are a range of Left and Right (moderate to far-leanings) and they’ll get annoyed if certain topics are raised in certain places. Sometimes you just want a darn break from it. But I do not believe MM was booed because his view was unpopular with the audience. I think it was just like, “PLEASE, not tonight.”
That’s not really accurate. People were up in arms about what he said (in fact Jon Voigt was said to be livid). People wanted to tow the line after 9/11 and no one wanted to speak out against the Iraqi war, especially not in Hollywood.
@ Sochan
That may have been some of it, but it was in the middle of the “if you say anything even remotely negative or critical about the president or the war then you *are not a patriot*” stuff. The only time I have ever been really, truly, afraid to speak my mind was during that period, because people were so unhinged about it.
@Algernon, those were some bad times. Proving your patriotism by dumping out your Perrier – ignorance has no bounds. I remember being inspired by an elderly volunteer. She wore a button stating, “Peace is Patriotic”.
so, only conservatives can be patriotic?
My thought exactly! Ugh, STFU Jon. He’s a brilliant actor but such a nutjob.
I think Hermann Goering had the same idea awhile back, something about bringing the people easily to the bidding of their leaders by denouncing them for lack of patriotism.
He did, and look how that turned out. Those with the privilege to say what they think should be extra careful to think before they speak. I have had a very low opinion of Mr Voight ever since it came to light the way he treated his wife and family. His poor character was revealed, and hiding behind Catholicism and self forgiveness hardly mitigates his profligate behavior.
A country is its people and the land. Favouring the top 1% and destroying the environment doesn’t sound very patriotic to me.
I imagine he is a great granddad and that through the kids is how Angelina is able to have a relationship with him. Many adult children often say they had a troubled relationship with their parent who ends up being a loving grandparent, and so they bond through the mutual love of the kids.
+1
I agree. He sounds like he’s making up for the time lost with his children. Although he was present in a way, I think he is trying to be a better granddad.
I can’t help but wonder how that man helped create such a wonderful person like Jolie though…He’s so backwards and narrow-minded with a daughter that is so open-minded and kind. I guess it’s all her mother and her humanitarianism.
Jon loves his grandchildren and I’m sure they love him.
Chances are they call him from all over the World, can’t tell grandpa we’re leaving and where we’re going, because he may call a press conference and announce it.
He knows that if he screws up with the grandchildren, he’ll have to deal with Brad, so he is keeping his lips zipped and making general statements.
I dunno… I always got the impression that he was a manipulator and not a good guy. I’ve always gotten the impression that he was a jerkoff to Angelina’s mother, had been involved in a lot of dangerous and seedy things when Angelina was growing up and that she has his number as to what and who he is underneath the lousy veneer he puts up. And she keeps him at a 10 foot arm’s length because of it, watches him closely when he’s interacting with the kids and doesn’t put up with any of his bs. I think the only reason she tolerates him at all is to preserve PR and not destroy a series of people with truths only she and her father know.
AJ’s brother has spoken out about having no car (and maybe financial issues due to their dad not paying enough child support?) when they attended a really rich LA high school, and he was basically saying Jon Voight didn’t treat them right when they were kids.
I find it interesting how communism is such a dirty word in the US, whereas here, a lot of people think they lived much better during cummunism. Of course, Yugoslav communism was much more open than Soviet communism.
Wow! You need a reality check! There is no good communism, no one has ever lived well under communism and no one will ever succeed under communism. Please look at Cuba, China, Russia and North Korea for starters. Remember learning about bread lines and people being relocated from one town to the next whether they wanted to or not? The human rights records of these countries are absolutely awful. So yes, it is a dirty word here and all over the world. Why do you think people escape those countries to come here?
As another former-YU person, I must tell you that Franca is right. Most people remember it very fondly. Everybody’s even getting nostalgic about it lately. While it sucked for the formerly rich, it helped the formerly poor a lot.
I know! All those communist leaders spying on their own citizens! We would NEVER …wait, never mind. 😉
Texas, maybe you’d be willing to listen to what a person from a former communist country has to say instead of explaining her what her compatriots should feel?
Others are jumping on your statement and with good reason, and as a Texas native, I don’t think your screen name is helping as Texans are not exactly known for their forward-looking views and policies these days.
On a personal level, My husband’s grandparents were Communists in Wales in the early 20th century. Because of their actions (and the other C’s), they were instrumental in pushing for unionization of coal minors, so that their incredibly difficult lives had some small amount of protection.
I’m no expert on communism, but from my understanding of history, tribal societies typically had a basic communist like structure. For instance, in a typical tribal society had a distribution of wealth so the gap of “rich” and “poor” was minimal. Of course, a tribe was usually very small so it could be said it works better on a small scale rather then a large one. So to say communism is inherently “evil” sounds like a knee jerk reaction that comes from being spoon fed a bunch of jingoistic crap without using one’s own critical thinking abilities.
I knew an East German man who had fond memories living under communism. That’s not to say that the system wasn’t corrupt, but then what government isn’t? I don’t think communism works in the long run but that isn’t to say it had absolutely no advantages for the people living under it.
Yeah, in the U.S. we never hold citizens without charges (wait, at Guantanamo we do) or torture people (ditto) or spy on our citizens (NSA) or shoot people merely for protesting an unlawful arrest (any recent unarmed shooting by a cop).
Hey Franca! Where are you from if you don’t mind me asking? 🙂
I am from Croatia , which was a part of Yugoslavia until 1991. As I said, Yugoslav communism was much more open than Soviet communism, because thw Yugoslav partisans were the most effective anti-Nazi resistance movement in Europe and managed to free themselves without anyone’s help, which enabled the Tito-Stalin split which later led to the Non-aligned movement. Yugoslavia was even given a couple of billions of dollars from the US.
And yes, many people think they lived better. Working class people without any political aspirations felt like their jobs were safe, the paycheck came on time, etc. The manager of a factory jad 3 times the salary.of a worker, not a 100 times.
Of course communism wasn”t good, but from a purely economical point of view, regular people think they lived better.
Texasgurl – whatever your thoughts on communism (whether philosophical communism or sovietism or any of the other variants that have been practised) Franca is quite right, A great many people in the Soviet bloc countries felt that they were better off before the fall of the bloc. Some still do. And the figures bear it out. Russia’s life expectancy decreased by about ten years in the decade following. Average household income decreased. Unemployment rose. Homelessness exploded. You worry a lot less about freedom of speech if you don’t have anywhere to live. And people in the countries that made up the old Yugoslavia, you know, might well have thought they were much better off before, when there wasn’t a vicious civil war and NATO bombing the place into smithereens.
You might not like China. I don’t much either. But it’s an incontrovertible fact that they have lifted 500 million people out of absolute poverty in the space of less than 20 years.
Some people look at the US system with similar levels of disgust to the one you’re showing here. I’m sure you’d be first to tell them why they are wrong. So it would behove you to stop and wonder WHY people who used to live under communism didn’t think it was so bad, rather than tell them that they can’t possibly think that.
To add: coming from my relatives in the area, not from personal experience: communism also allowed for a historic leap in social mobility from the previous period (capitalist? authoritarian?), millions of farmer kids being able to go to college or have indoor plumbing, that’s enough seed for political allegiance.
Quite. Most people are not political. They want food in their belly, a roof over their head, a secure job, and education for their kids. If the system delivers that, they’re happy.
@Sixer – I couldn’t have said it better myself. @ Texasgurl – I’m not saying one ideology is better than the other but as a person who is from former YU (Bosnia), I can tell you we had a decent standard of living, free medical care/education, a literacy rate of over 90 percent, a guaranteed right to a job, one-month vacation with pay, etc. AND country was debt free. I didn’t leave my home country because of communism.
Social mobility was good, yes. My uncle has a PhD, my grandparents were factory workers and their parents were piss poor farmers.
Communism brought literacy and health care to many poor countries quite rapidly.
Sixer – thanks for your comment. You are basically praising a system that says, “It doesn’t matter what kind of money you make, we will spread the wealth so that it is equal for all!” Yes, that is communism/socialism and that is not patriotic in the American sense. It goes back to what Voight is saying. He is saying those who are true American patriots – believe in the constitution, individual liberties and a democratic society ..and then the other “progressive” side is into this spread-the-wealth mentality and take away our freedom of speech/right to bear arms, which are values of communism. If there are people who have lived it in other countries and loved that government got the final say on spreading the money and services and basically didnt allow them to think for themselves, great for them. A lot of people love being guided by the government so that they dont have to worry about forming their own opinions. However, that is not the traditional, patriotic, American way that many now find to be archaic and out of touch with reality. So now in America there is an uprising of “progressives” who want to share everything and give up their constitutional rights. There is a shift happening, that is what he is saying.
Well, nations change. What’s wrong with that? Your kind of patriotism is certainly not mine, and, by your assumption, yours is going the way of the dodo. There isn’t a single “American way”, or at least I haven’t been brainwashed to believe so. And please try to understand that economic realities and the right to bear arms are quite different topics.
@Sixer, I see you have had a lot of right-wing rhetoric hurled your way.
@winniecoopersmom, this “progressive” has sworn in three states and two federal jurisdictions to uphold the Constitution, I read the document frequently, do notice that the words “well-regulated” appear in the Second Amendment, and also notice that the party Voigt supports is quite happy to take MY earnings and give them to the likes of sit-on-her-butt-for-life-and-never-pay-into-FICA-or-MedicareAnn Romney in the form of spousal share Medicare. Members of my family have served in every US war since immigrating to this country in 1848, including the last three, which Voigt supported, and they’re all Democrats. I also have made the effort to learn flag etiquette and protocol for the national anthem and find it really irksome when self-proclaimed PATRIOTS do it wrong. By the way, there is absolutely no reason on this earth to stand up for “God Bless America.” It isn’t the national anthem. I am also disgusted with politicians who, five years after a law has been passed, still have not bothered to read it but want to repeal it based upon lies and when asked why they never bothered to read it, which, by the way, is the JOB for which they collect salaries from our taxes, complain that they haven’t read it because it is over 1,000 pages long. Again, they can’t read 1,000 pages in FIVE years. And please, the government may not be guiding your opinions but somebody is definitely telling you what to think.
@sixer
Ah, music to my ears. I always enjoy how much more nuanced the Europeans’ view of communism seems to be. I can really argue for or against communism on cue, depending on how close-minded I find my interlocutor, but all this self-righteous American lecturing on what communism really is like to those of us who lived under it amuses me on good days, and downright pisses me off on bad.
I can’t fathom sitting in Russia or China and telling an American what a terrible system they have without ever setting foot on American soil (and trust me, there is enough bad in American system to point out).
@WinnieCoopersMom
I’m not praising anything. I simply called out Texasgurl for invalidating the actual lived experience and rationally-held opinions of a group of people – including some commenting here – as if they didn’t exist, and provided a few factual statistics that may point to why people hold such opinions.
@ Lilac
Progressive, as a term, has always implied to me a socially liberal mindset and in no way incompatible with a market-based economic outlook. Therefore irrelevant to any discussion of soviet based communism and central economic planning.
BTW: I don’t like your anthem, but it’s better than the obsequious thing we have to sing! Ours should be Jerusalem or I Vow To Thee My Country and yours should be This Land is Your Land!
@ Timbuktu
I perfectly understand the point of view that life was in many ways better when the Iron Curtain was still in place. In measurable terms of practical prosperity, it was for a good number of groups. People have every right to place those factors above (arguably illusory) political freedoms if that’s their perspective.
I’m a left libertarian, verging on anarcho-syndicalist, so my views would certainly be seen as extreme in a US context! But by the same token, soviet communism wouldn’t be a system I’d choose either.
At lot of what is said here about the social and economic benefits of certain European variants of communism actually sound a lot like what was until recently classic social-democratic politics in Denmark. The creation of the welfare state (welfare is here seen as a positive word, i.e. spreading the wealth so the majority can live decently). It was the introduction of a fixed, minimal pension for all citizens (which helped a huge amount of elderly people out of poverty), free healthcare (which has meant that my family hasn’t been rendered broke due to extensive medical bills because my mother has a very serious, chronic illness) and free education with a small government stipend for (which means that I have gotten excellent education) – it is a system that has allow for a huge upswing in social mobility. My maternal grandparents were dirt-poor, my mother became a schoolteacher and I’ve have an advanced university degree. However, the social-democratic model of socialism that exists within a democratic system with human rights such as freedom of speech and freedom of religion, which was something that didn’t exists in communist regimes such the DDR or the Soviet Union.
Sadly, the Socialdemocratic Party has pretty much abandoned its left-wing heritage and adopted a far more right-wing politics, which sadly includes making life much harder for the poorest member of society, which actually was the reason the party was formed in the first place.
Again, I have seen NO ONE tell me why so many people in this world fled communism to come to America. Let me try and explain the differences in communism and socialism. Socialism believes in the redistribution of wealth, taking from those who have to give to those who have not regardless of one’s desire to work. It’s a mentality of the government “giving” people “free stuff” such as healthcare, food, transportation, etc. when there is no such thing as free. The money has to come from somewhere so they take it from you and use it for whatever they want, social programs, their own pockets, whatever, for the common good. Under socialism, you still have your basic human rights in tact – if the govt says you can have them. I get that this site is mostly liberal/socialist and that’s fine ( for you) but you need to understand what you’re talking about when it comes to communism. Under communism, you don’t have free speech. In China, Russia, Cuba, North Korea and all the others that are communist, they will shoot you dead in the street for speaking out against the govt. Under communism, everyone is poor. They may – MAY – have basic needs but very poor quality. They don’t have any rights. The govt CAN come in your home whenever they want and ransack your stuff and then shoot you if you protest. Under communism, there is no free market for anything, it is all controlled by the govt. You eat when the govt can provide it for you. if not, remember bread lines, that’s what all that was about. Under communism, you have no rights to a speedy trial, you just disappear. Under communism, specifically in China, only the govt can tell you how many kids you can have. If you have more than that, one of them goes to an orphanage if they don’t kill it instead. That is why people flee these countries and come here, because we have a constitution that reinforces our basic freedoms, that IS SUPPOSED to be followed as it is our law. We are getting further and further away from the constitution every single day and now, our free speech and freedom of religion is coming under fire – along with the 2nd amendment which is always under fire – and our 4th amendment has been ripped to shreds by the federal govt. This is why communism is bad. It has NEVER been good.
@sixer – the reason many people living under communism thought it was so great is because that was all they knew. They were afraid to stand up and say anything about it for fear of retaliation. Many people get into a comfort zone and are happy with govt running their lives. For anyone to say that communism is better over freedom, which is basically what most in this thread are saying, is very scary to me. I wonder the age group of the commenters are in this thread because as someone who grew up in the 80s with freedom and an intact Bill of Rights, I can tell that most of you know nothing about what we learned in school about communism. Remember this at least: Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Castro, Putin and Kim Jon Il and Un? ALL were/are communists and they are not and were not good people.
For the love of Alamo, read some books outside of your comfort zone. And instead of Texplaining show some respect for the people who actually experienced these regimes. Leave the neocolonialism to Reagan and the 80s.
As a resident in a country with free healthcare and education I gladly pay my taxes because it goes to the common good, i.e. something that benefits not just me but also my fellow citizens!
A nation is simply not just a collection of individuals, it is a community, albeit a large one. Unbridled individualism where people only care for themselves and not their fellow citizens does not a healthy community make.
Furthermore, a system of free healthcare not only benefit the individual but also the community at large since people go to the doctor before they get too sick, and there’s a lot of preventive care – which in the end saves money because it prevents long-time sick-leaves. That is actually the reason why there’s a lot of programs in my country directed at health in the work place, both physical and mental – because stress related illness is now one of the biggest reasons for long-term sick-leaves. This actually works.
@ Texasgurl: I’ll address/rebut your specific claims in a separate post. But, in general, you’re talking about what you learnt in *American* school-books during the later part of the Cold War (early 80’s). Have you stopped to consider that they might be biased?
Several people (Tash, Franca, Crocuta) have told you they lived in a previously communistic country, and that it was not as bad as you think. And your response is to say “the reason many people living under communism thought it was so great is because that was all they knew”.
Do you not see the irony? You’re the one who’s only lived under ideology (capitalism). People who have lived under BOTH ideologies are telling you you’re wrong, and you’re ignoring them.
@ Texasgurl: Okay, now I’m going to try to address your specific claims. List form seems easiest.
1) “Why have so many fled communism to go to America?” You’re going to have to be more a lot more specific. I have no idea what peoples or what time-frame you’re talking about, so I can’t really respond. Defectors at the height of the Cold War? Political refugees? Current immigrants? In general, people immigrate for many, many reasons. You need to narrow it down. There are a lot of Kiwis here in Australia, and I’m pretty sure they’re not fleeing an oppressive ideology. Also, you might be surprised by the amount of immigrants TO Russia.
2) “Difference between communism and socialism”. Your definition is flat-out wrong. You have a right to an opinion, but the definition of words isn’t a matter of opinion, it’s simple fact. The words have defined meanings and if we’re not using the words the same way we can’t have a conversation.
Using a simple Marxist definition there is one key difference between the ideologies: who owns the stuff? Under socialism, the government holds the means to production. Under communism, the means to production is held publicly by the working class – and there is no need for government at all. Under capitalism, the means to production is held privately.
The countries you keep listing as communist are technically socialist. There has never been a purely communist country. (There has also never been a purely capitalist country either.)
When you start talking about authoritative socialist regimes or – conversely – libertarian, capitalistic regimes, it’s a completely different topic. There are two separate dimensions: fascism/democracy and communism/capitalism. You can have a dictator-led capitalist society (see Syria) or democratic socialism. Saying communism means you’ll have a harsh authoritarian government and pointing towards Russia, China etc., is like saying a capitalist democracy is going to be evil and pointing towards Hitler’s Germany.
3) “They shoot you in the street for speaking out against the government”. Er … compared to American police, who shoot you for being black? (A low blow, but I couldn’t resist.)
Americans killed by police in 2014: 1100
Chinese killed by Chinese police in 2014: 12
(Couldn’t find decent stats for the others.)
Look, American police violence is simply insane. It’s got absolutely nothing to do with America being a capitalist society, but it means you can’t play the “government violence” card without looking like the pot calling the kettle black. Even if American police weren’t utterly off the charts compared to the rest of the world, I’d refer you back to point 2: socialist/communist doesn’t necessarily mean fascist/authoritarian.
4) “Breadlines”. I had to google to figure out what Russian breadlines you were talking about. Seems they happened in 1991 (just prior to the collapse of the Soviet Union). To me, the iconic picture of breadlines was taken in New York, during the Depression. Scarcity can happen under any system. It would be silly if I thought a pic from the Great Depression told the entire story about capitalism. It is equally silly to think a pic from the SU collapse tells the entire story about communism.
5) “Most of you know nothing of what we learned in school”. Have you missed the fact that hardly anyone replying is American? Franca, Crocuta and Tash are all former-YU. Timbuktu is also from a former communist country. (Sorry Timbuktu, I’ve missed where exactly you’re from.) Sixer is English. I think ArtHistorian is Danish (?). I’m Australian. (Sorry if I missed/screwed-up any!)
We all had schoolbooks, but they put a different slant on things. This is a sign that you should stop and question whether your American schoolbooks could be biased. And as I said earlier, you should definitely stop and listen to what the people from former-communists countries are saying since they’ve actually lived both sides.
Perhaps it would be wise to make a difference between socialism and communism, though…
They are one in the same. They have the same values.
WinnieCoopersMom, I challenge you to provide an accurate (based on actual scholarship, not a news show) definition for both terms.
@A: I challenge you to Google “Communism vs Socialism.” Every single result will state that communism is a more extreme form of socialism. They are both Marxist-rooted ideologies. Why does no one want to accept or admit this reality?
@Winniecoopersmom you do realize that the good ol’ “American” way (capitalism) is also inherently flawed, right? Especially if you aren’t a good,white, Christian American from at least a middle class background? The American way is a very nice ideal but the reality is that the powers that be have corrupted that dream with racsism, sexism, etc, in an effort to keep the “undesirables” in society from breaking through the glass ceiling, or even getting ahead on a smaller scale? And I’m saying this as a proud American, but if someone is eager to point out the (justifiable) flaws in foreign government or society they should be able to do it for their own.
@WinnieCoopersMom – But if one is an extreme form of the other, than they are not one and the same.
Capitalism is an economic system, not necessarily an ideal model for the government of a society. There is in fact no inherent morality or ethics in “pure” capitalist thought. Not all commerce is beneficial – remember that there are still markets for drugs, sex slaves, etc. A completely untrammeled capitalist system would be solely run by the axion of “supply” and “demand”. The reason why human trafficking is such a huge problem is because there IS a demand for unpaid human labour in various forms, be the sexual or other.
The regulation of commerce according to social and moral is not only basic human decency but also an imperative in order for the survival of an orderly society on the basis of the tradition of Enlightenment that forms the philosophical underpinning of all modern democracies.
“WinnieCoopersMom says:
October 23, 2015 at 5:44 pm
@A: I challenge you to Google “Communism vs Socialism.” Every single result will state that communism is a more extreme form of socialism. They are both Marxist-rooted ideologies. Why does no one want to accept or admit this reality? ”
Because it’s not actually reality?
With your comments, and Texasgurl’s comments, it shows what happens when there isn’t an understanding of the difference between political and economic ideologies, and the differences between your feelings and facts.
I visited the USSR, and wouldn’t recommend the system at all. But simplifying its system, or China’s, etc., down to simply ‘communism’ ignores their history and why the ‘communists’ came to power and what type of government they actually instituted. It really is ignorant of history.
I’m a moderate liberal/progressive, my parents were moderate conservatives who left the Republican party when Reagan got the nomination. They still believed in having humane policies, which the current Republican party does not. My personal preference would be for a more egalitarian society, but the US is so addicted to its mythologies of unbridled capitalism and go it alone/up by the bootstraps beliefs, that’s not going to happen again anytime soon. And that’ll be to our detriment.
The difference is simple: it is possible to have democratic socialism, as we see in the Scandinavian countries. Democratic communism is not possible; it is a contradiction in terms.
@WinnieCoopersMom: Unfortunately, the term ‘communism’ in the US is mostly used to describe something close to ‘evil’, as a purely political and propagandist term. This is completely ignorant of all the different possible levels of social-economic development of a society aside from what we know as capitalism. The original idea that Marx had, was of a society that doesn’t exploit people for the sake of profit (or surplus value, as he named it). He wrote his books while witnessing first hand what happens when profit becomes the central goal in a society, and human beings become a commodity. The poverty he experienced in the days of early capitalism in England led him to believe that this might not be the society people should strive for. It would lead too far to explain his analysis here, but from historical facts we know that many countries/peoples tried to change that system into something more human. Socialism is based on state-owned property of production means, which sets an end to exploitation of people. In socialism, you still have private property, but the most important needs of a person are provided for by the state (education, health care, pension etc.). There’s still inequality, but to a far less degree than in capitalism. Communism, on the other hand, would be an ideal (what you call an ‘extreme’), without any ownership anymore, and no money. People exchanging services and goods without any interest in, or possibility, to make profit. This obviously requires a state of mind that believes in people as true equals, the ego taking a hike back. It requires people who are more interested in growing as human beings than in competition with others. It’s getting too long here…but in the end, it’s people who decide how they want to live, and what they understand as freedom. In that regard, ‘communism’ was never practised in reality anywhere, not even close.
Because the US was founded in a kind of violent struggle against the original colonist, the British Empire. When your founding is basically a declaration of independence, you hate the idea of too much governance and you are suspicious of government. This comes back to bite you because it’s a FACT (that only conservatives can’t see) that you need good government to contain the free market or you get the GFC, the Great Depression, etc again and again.
Communism works well as a theoretical construct…less well when applied to the human condition. But as a lot of people on here pointed out, there are a lot of societies that were more stable under communism. Not to say that it was the best thing in the world, but it wasn’t communism PER SE that people were fleeing, but the human interpretation of it. People (as they always will, because they are human beings) have a need for power, greed, etc, and can take just about any construct or political model and bend it to suit their own agenda.
As for Voight’s comments, to me, they just make him sound like an old fart who is out of touch. It sort of makes you dismiss whatever he says that may come after that, rightly or wrongly.
He’s full of it. None of the conservatives in hollywood have suffered or lost work for being a conservative.
Exactly.
Arnold Schwarzenegger, Clint Eastwood, Sly Stallone, Kelsey Grammar, Patricia Heaton, James Woods, Dean Cain, John Ratzenberger, Bruce Willis, Angie Harmon, and Jon Voight are all outspoken Hollywood conservatives and all have had major success in movies and TV. They are always steadily employed and I highly doubt any of them have ever been turned down for a job because of their political views.
Aren’t Tom “Water Rustler” Selleck and Kevin Costner part of that group?
stallone’s not as bad as the others. he believes in gun control
Yes.
So sorry, Jon- patriots can also believe in tolerance, free will, and fairness. Regardless of political bent, you shouldn’t label someone “unpatriotic” if they don’t want to send children to fight wars to die for oil companies, don’t want “conservatives” policing their bodies & denying people rights to marry, etc., and unregulated companies killing people with poisons in the water. That said, there is no denying that Jon is very talented & I love him on Ray Donovan. IMO. both Brad & Angie stay VERY close when Grandpa Jon is around the kids- he’s so “passionate” and SURE he knows the “truth” (it’s scary*), he would endlessly try to indoctrinate & scare those kids. It does make me happy that his “conservative” buddies are probably VERY, VERY disturbed by his award winning Mickey Donovan character.
—
*He went apesh*t (yelling “truths”- interrupting, bullying & being sexist) on a female Daily Beast reporter during the RNC- it was really frightening- made me feel sad for Angie & her brother. The video was pulled down very soon after it was posted & now an edited version is floating around that includes Jon being all contrite & apologizing- ugh.
He’s not good at getting his point across. I have family like that. They do more harm to their “cause” because they just aren’t patient, well-versed, calm, listening to the others during a conversation, and as a result they just come across un-hinged. Not everyone is naturally skilled at debating. It is actually IS a skill. It’s not about disagreeing. It’s about how you come across in the expression of your ideas.
Yeah, actors are terrible at that. They never have to audition or perform.
@brincalhona
lol
I know, right? It’s so mean of us to expect an actor to deliver a line graciously.
Why do American treat Karl- Marx as some evil demon or sth? Is it because he was against capitalism? You may disagree with his beliefs but he never did anything bad. His words were simply misused by others.
Communism is demonized in the US. I agree about Marx – his ideas sounded good on paper.
EXACTLY. You can’t say that a theoretical construct is good or evil, it is the people who pervert it to their own advantage who add the good or the evil. Kind of like people with the bible. Okay, not kind of like, EXACTLY like people with the bible.
Also, why would anyone relate him to ‘communism’? He wrote a criticism about a society that exploits people to a degree they have nothing left in the end, a society where a very few live splendid on the account of many, and he explained why that is…so people should stop misusing his name and/or his theory for their manipulative purposes. By the way, never ever has there been true communism practiced anywhere in the world. The Soviet Union, Cuba, East Germany, Poland, former Yugoslavia etc.- it’s called socialism. And it’s not about nuances, there are profound differences between the two.
Karl Marx is actually a very interesting thinker, especially his early work where he introduces a correction to the tradtion of German idealist thought, arguing that any philosophical and ideological/political system has to take into account the material conditions of human life! That includes the means of production as well as who works and who benefits from the work and to which degree?
He was a thinker, not a politician – and as it is always with any ideological system, problems arise when people try to make it into reality because these grand systems of thought rarely take human behaviour (especially the irrational part of it) into a ccount.
Yes!!!
Thinkers like Marx and Freud (whose theories aren’t used for treatment anymore) have turned out to be incredibly helpful in my profession, i.e. the field of cultural analysis.
When art history embraced Marxist thinking, the field was able to free itself of the mythology of the Great Genius creating art without any relation to historical and social context.
Fx medieval and renaissance artists were educated in workshops. The entire production of art took place in workshops with the master, the journeymen and the apprentices. A large workshop meant a larger output and the master didn’t paint all the elements of a piece. When Tintoretto’s daughter died, the output of his workshop didn’t decrease because he was so deep in mourning that he could work, as was once suggested. It was because his daughter was an incredibly talented artist who contributed to the work the workshop put out. He actually had her married off in order to prevent her from accepting a position as painter to the Spanish court. Then she died in child birth.
The production of art has changed with the historical, social and economic circumstances and so has the art market. Marx’s work has actually helped us to understand these aspects, which has lead to a much greater understanding of the various aspects of the places art inhabits in a given society. That is something that is much more fun to research than simply judging whether a piece of art is good or bad. Though aesthetics certainly has its place in the field. It is simply, IMO, a less interesting one.
I personally think the only reason Angelina is allowing Jon near her children is because of Brad.
Brad seems like a man who values the family bond and he must have convinced both Angelina & Jon that they should put aside their differences for the children’s sake.
So far it seems to work..
I could have sworn Angelina told Cynthia McFadden (in an interview while promoting SALT in 2010), that Brad had nothing to do with her decision to allow her father back in her life.
She talks about it being HER decision at the 6 minute mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tExdHnPqg
@Maya, I agree with you. Didn’t he attempt to reconcile JA with her mother while they were married?
NO the didn’t..
and as the comment above shows. Angie herself said that Brad didn’t have anything to do with her talking to her father. It was the death of her mother and her brother. She said that Brad was supportive but it was her decision.
She also said in the 60 minute interview that they don’t talk about the past. ONLY talk about the kids and general things. She said they don’t talk about her mother. I think from what she says they have limited contact. She has opened the door for him to know the kids; but I don’t think she sees him as a father in the real sense of that word. She never talks negative about him in a negative way. But It also seems she keeps him at arms length. The relationship between parent and child is a tricky one. Angie knows her father better than anyone here. So if she feels she needs to keep him at arms length; I’ll trust her on that one.
He wants to be directed by his daughter? I thought she had already “directed him” to STFU. Am I wrong? No? Perhaps the script wasn’t to his liking or his lines were too short? Perhaps I’m just confused.
oh wow, good one!
Damn! Now that some good snark right there. Hat’s off.
Goid grief, I am *so* sick of actors who get steady work and who talk up their conservative politics all the time and yet whine about how they have to keep quiet in Hollywood because they’re so oppressed. Please.
And of course you can only be patriotic if you’re a right-winger. That’s in the Constitution, right?
He could be on the double bill with Donald Trumph…
The reason he’s good in Ray Donovan is because he has the same personality as his narcissistic character.
I hate all his passive aggressive comments about his family. Every. Single. Time. he talks about them he says something nice, and then immediately follows up with how they treat him so badly.
‘My daughter’s a great director!… But how selfish that she doesn’t hire me.”
‘I love my grandkids and I’m an awesome grandfather!… But they never let me see them.’
You’re right, it does seem like he always wants to follow it with a “but”. It’s like he just can’t resist.
“I hate all his passive aggressive comments about his family.”
This. And not even subtle, at that… all of them meant as comparative and conditional. Those little love darts of compliments and yearning and well-meaning, carried to their target by feathers dipped in a touch of poison.
Completely agree. I like your metaphor, Belle de jour.
I think he’s on very thin ice with Angie and Brad also. I get the impression he was a rotten father when she was a child. I remember his saying something about her having “mental problems” and needing to “seek help” when she was in her twenties. She cut him off then, but apparently gave him another chance. He might not be so lucky next time.
Reading the rules for comments (to excerpt): friendly, welcoming … lighthearted … without fear of harassment … different opinions are welcome, hatred and bigotry are not. Hmm, I guess that only applies when someone agrees with you. Otherwise, they risk getting called a right wing nutjob, or worse. This isn’t the first article on this web-site to denigrate political viewpoints that differ from yours. Shame on you all, and that means the author of this piece too. This man stated his opinions, but because they disagree with yours it’s okay to put words in his mouth and then insult him over them? Who’s the bigot now? It may surprise you to know that Gallup figures from 2013 indicate 41% of voters are republican or lean republican, and 47% are democrats or lean democrat. I’m proud to be one of the 41%. Go ahead and make the same assumptions about me (you’d be wrong). Insult me all you want after this post, but I won’t be back to see it. I’ve had enough of your friendly, welcoming – hypocritical – tolerance and equality.
Gotta love butthurt republicans.
And I think that she thinks she dropped the mic… as she scuttles out, propelled by unassailable principles and convictions, slamming the door on meaningfully discussing or defending them further.
I’ll never truly understand these drama queen exits on an internet chat forum.
+++++ to all the responses to Missy. I wish I were half as eloquent as all of you.
“Gotta love butthurt republicans.”
Judging from the comments here, there appears to be many more butthurt Democrats.
Jon Voight is telling people who are liberal or progressive that they hate America and don’t love their country which is a steaming pile of BS.
So you flame out and leave because you’re too cowardly to have your viewpoint challenged? No wonder you seem so close-minded.
Flounce away.
“…it’s okay to put words in his mouth, and then insult him over them”. That’s not what happened. He was QUOTED directly from an interview. And now people are reacting to the inanity of his stated comments, such as that being progressive is another term for Communist, and that he equates patriotism with conservatism.
So if you don’t want to actually defend yout POV and can only deal by slamming the door, and calling the writers and commenters on this site hypocrites and bigots, well then, go on.
Jon Voigt called those of us who don’t agree with him unpatriotic and communist. He has the right to express his views but he hurled insults and I do not have to tolerate them even though you may agree with his insults.
Why would it surprise anyone to know our country is basically split 50/50 in terms of opposing view points? I think we all have experienced that in real life without a poll driving the point home.
As for the rest of your comment as others have pointed out you seem to have no problem with Voigt insulting a large portion of the population (the part you’re not a member of) but are demanding respect and tolerance where you have none to bestow. That is the exact flaw that has led to this backlash.
Also, please stop using opposing view points/opinions as an excuse for why some opinions must be accepted. For a time in this country’s history half the population wanted to OWN other humans and when they were decried they wanted to shrug and leave it to a difference of opinion. It doesn’t work that way. Wrong is wrong and opinions can absolutely be wrong when those onions are about infringing on the rights of others.
I <3 you.
but I hate it when onions infringe on the rights of others.
(PS – I'm TOTALLY just teasing – I knew what you meant but that is an excellent typo.)
But what if they’re patriotic onions?
Haha, my fat fingers were simply not made for an iPhone keyboard. I try to do a quick read through and make sure I’ve fixed the typos but one amazing one always slips through 😅
I gotta say…if the onion was patriotic enough…I’m talking a massive sweet onion with a flag lapel, I’d be hard pressed not to listen 😉
but it’s OK to bash liberals with the term communist isn’t it? hypocrite
You’ve got to live with it. I’m centrist on the economy and liberal on social issues, so I’m a Democrat in the US, Liberal in Canada and Conservative in the UK. People who voted for the Tories in the UK are routinely called “murderers” and demonised on Twitter and elsewhere online. Everything is increasingly polarised, and it’s a damned shame.
Well, I guess none of you have 70 year old relatives in your family?
I do. Thank goodness we can just pass over the turkey to them and be comforted that no magazine will be interviewing them about anything.
“Thank goodness we can just pass over the turkey to them and be comforted that no magazine will be interviewing them about anything.”
A timely pee-paw reminder for the upcoming holidays:)
Thanks for making me laugh.
Yes, Mr. Voight definitely sounds like a product of his generation. A lot of older people that grew up in the Cold War Era are still paranoid about the “Red” commies coming to invade the good ol’ US of A. It is sad how little basic understanding people even have about communism, they are just regurgitating the fear fed to them by the media and government.
I grew up in Denmark at the tail-end of the Cold War – and we certainly couldn’t afford to exhibit hardcore “good” vs “evil” stance with a strong enemy neighbour that could deliver a nuclear payload on the capital within an hour. It is only with the distance of 30 years that the debate on the Cold War in Denmark has turned into unrelenting positions of “black” and “white”. Proximity to the situation at the time called for a lot of care and pragmatism. I guess it so much easier to judge if the enemy is on the other side of the world or 30 years away.
I don’t know if it’s just location, ArtHistorian. I’m in Oz, and in school every class that touched on communism/capitalism or the Cold War turned into a discussion of the effects of nuclear war. I’m not kidding. We spent about 15 minutes on the pros/cons of each side, and several weeks on “how to survive a nuclear winter”.
I was refering more to a direct lived experience, about how the Cold War infused the experience of daily life. Fx wednesday at noon all air sirens would be tested throughout the country, that way we knew that if they sounded at any other time we should take cover immediately (- I still find it disconcerting that they only test them once a year now since I can never remember the date). We received instructions on what to do in case of nuclear contamination. There were held peace ralleys all the time were specific songs were sung, etc. It was the news that Soviet u-boats stranded in Sweden, that Danish ships regularly picked up people fleeing the DDR in rowboat (or even on inflatable mattresses). And so on and so forth….
The threat was simply ever present throughout decades (as my parents can attest to), and it insinuated itself into the lived experience in a way that I suspect people living farther away from the threat or having grown up after the collaps of the East Bloc, simply don’t understand.
I do! But my 75 year old mom’s still got common sense and her wits about her – thank goodness. Heck, she even likes bands like Nathaniel ratelieff and the night sweats. She was a career civil servant and still a Democrat. We are both very fortunate.
My 86 year old great aunt would like two helpings of turkey and then she’s going to see the final Hunger Games film. She describes Paul Ryan as “that little twerp.”
He looks great.
.
I was interested in Ray Donovan when it was about to premiere but then I saw he was in it and lost all interest. I don’t want to support him in any way. I don’t think Angelina is as close to him as he makes it sound.
It’s probably that when they talk–they talk about superficial things, the kids. My grandfather was like him–well, worse than him-did absolutely nothing for his kids. My mom got to hear from his various girlfriends that he took them out to dinner and their kids all the time, when he wouldn’t spend a quarter on them (literally). After they all started having kids…I guess he mellowed out or got old or something. But he was a fantastic grandfather……
It’s just really sucky, because it’s what I’m probably going to have to do in the future with my own bio father/sperm donor.
he is really a wretched, horrible excuse for a human being. just shut up already idiot.
What has he done that’s so bad?
OMG! Will people stop rewriting definition to words. Hot damn.
Well, I’m sure you’ve seen that for the past several years, certain conservative columnists/personalities have decided that fascism is on “the left” with communism. Not on the far right opposite from the far-left communism, both on the left. Now some people see overlap and politics beliefs as part of a more of a circle than points on a line, so to speak, but to call fascism leftist is just stupid and revisionist history, and an attempt to paint all those on the “right” as being freedom-loving types, and to link fascism and communism.
It is pure ignorance! Fascism and Communism are political ideologies that a diametrically opposed! However, they have both been implemented to create totalitarian societies where human rights have had no value. However, that doesn’t mean that the two ideologies hold the same values, which is patently not the case!!!!
I watched the first episode of Ray Donavan and that was enough. It seemed like a show that just wanted to wallow in depravity. It wasn’t edgy. It was just sick.
hey jon voight, people in communist countries don’t have any healthcare. but of course you probably thinks that’s great
That is sarcasm, right? Healthcare is free and comprehensive in communist countries. Hospitals may be poorly equipped (because western equipment is expensive and rare) but what care you get is free.
@ vauvert
Exactly!!!
Say about the (former) communist countries whatever you like but they did really improve the living circumstances of the people. They made sure everybody got some elemantary education and even those already close to retirement did learn to read and write!! That is certainly a cultural achievement.
They ended the remaining forms of bond slavery [sic!!!]. They ended enforced marriages and child marriages. Since the break up of the soviet empire certain form of enforced / child marriages are back in those former satellite states of the former USSR.
And yes, health care was and is as good as they can afford it and it is free for everybody.
Some poor US americans who are ill would be much better off in these communist countries because they would get health care there which they don’t get in the USA. Think about that. And it took Obama TWO terms to get things going in health care.
I’m not getting the bfd. So he’s a conservative, okay. I’m not, but other people are and have every right to see things through their own eyes/mind/perspective. Even as a liberal, I found nothing offensive about what I read here. Telling someone to shut up because they speak their mind is just … well … that’s silly imo. It didn’t come off to me as if he was proclaiming to be a martyr – just saying that in his line of work, his viewpoints are in the minority. As a liberal in rural Kentucky, I get that. I don’t consider myself a martyr, simply the black sheep so to speak.
Being conservative isn’t bad per se but it depends on what kind of conservative. The conservative party in the USA once got done brilliant things for example the Clean Air Act (or one called like that) and that was very environmentalist.
But today the GOP is … well, no longer like I described above.
See my posting #30
I used to be a Jon Voight fan. Now I can’t unsee the fascist boob heads that he and Chuck Norris have become. I first noticed them becoming unglued during president Obama’s first run. Nothing wrong with disagreement over political platforms but their utterances seemed fascistic.
I wonder if his daugther Angelina Jolie holds similar simplistic conservative views?
John Voight didn’t really distance himself from the GOP, did he? I can understand and admire [sic!] conservatives if they distance themselves from the current GOP. Krugman put it well:
Paul Krugman:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/12/opinion/the-crazies-and-the-con-man.html?rref=collection%2Fcolumn%2Fpaul-krugman&contentCollection=opinion&action=click&module=NextInCollection®ion=Footer&pgtype=article
[…]
To understand Mr. Ryan’s role in our political-media ecosystem, you need to know two things. First, the modern Republican Party is a post-policy enterprise, which doesn’t do real solutions to real problems. [sic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!] Second, pundits and the news media really, really don’t want to face up to that awkward reality.
[…]
Yeah, because when I want to learn about the GOP, I go straight to Paul Krugman. LOL. While we’re at it, let’s check in with Rush Limbaugh and get his oh-so-balanced assessment of the Democrats.
Paul Krugman. Yikes.
Paul Krugman may be a liberal, but in the end he also has to adhere to facts, so the comparison to Rush Limbaugh is inaccurate. The sad thing is that there used to be conservative academics/columnist who were fact based, even if I didn’t always agree with their interpretation on things. That’s not the case anymore. Prof. Krugman is correct in this article, the Republican party is run by the crazies.
@ Alicia
Seriously? ARe US universities and academics that bad that a respected uni professor like Krugman can be reasonably compared to Limbaugh?
I agree with Jon Voight. I also believe Angelina is not stupid and will someday realize her father was right all along.
For those seemingly confused about capitalism, socialism, and communism:
A high school teacher helps clarify ‘socialism’ for Donald Trump (and you!)
The day after the first Democratic presidential debate, Donald Trump called Bernie Sanders a maniac.
“This socialist-slash-communist,” Trump said to raucous cheers. “I call him a socialist-slash-communist, because that’s what he is.”
Well, no. The terms “socialist” and “communist” are often confused, thanks in large part to the Cold War. Layer on top of that the nuance of the term “democratic socialist,” which is how Sanders describes himself, and it’s easy to see why people might generally be confused. (Even if they aren’t intentionally blurring that line, as it’s safe to assume Mr. Trump might have been doing.) As our Dave Weigel and David Farenthold reported this week, voters are not clear on the difference, either.
To offer America a bit of a primer, I reached out to Dr. Lawrence Quill, chairman and professor of political science at San Jose State University, over e-mail. He explained the difference between communism, socialism, capitalism and democratic socialism — in very professorial terms.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/10/24/a-high-school-teacher-helps-clarify-socialism-for-donald-trump-and-you/?tid=sm_fb
@cr
Thank you for your link.
I would like to add that the former soviet states had certain dictatorial and fascist elements in their political system. But these things aren’t party of the communist nor socialist ideology. Unfortunately people don’t separate these things properly. So when certain people like Trump accuse somebody of being a “communist” or a “socialist” they actually mean to imply this person were a “dictator”.
Historically, speaking “dictator” was actually a title and public office that the Roman senate bestoved upon certain leaders in ancient times.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dictator
It’s just factually untrue, not a matter of opinion: the term “progressive” has its own meaning and does not exist as a cover for the word communist. To imply one cannot be progressive and patriotic simultaneously — or critical of the US and patriotic simultaneously — is reductive. Likewise, if that was an answer to a question about Catholicism, I’m not sure how he’d answer a question about being an addict.
Plenty of other Hollywood people who started out as left-leaning and ended up more conservative as they aged (Ronald Reagan and Frank Sinatra spring to mind). I think it’s less about the nitty-gritty of policymaking and more about making political decisions emotionally, i.e., Voight reconciles the (scary, for him) changes in the world as he’s aged by looking backward towards an idealized past that exists mostly in his mind–he’s forgotten the rampant crime in places like NYC in the 1970s, for example.
I know I’ll get burned for this, but it wouldn’t surprise me if twenty years from now we see Angelina come out as a major neo-conservative herself. Why not? She only in her 30s and she’s already undergone so many major public persona/style shifts. She could change tomorrow. Yes, she’s been estranged from her dad for ten years, but they are a lot alike. In interviews earlier in her career (before they fell out circa Maddox’s adoption) she talked about those similarities more often: being picky about film roles, passionate about acting, etc. Both of them are intense, jump-in-with-both-feet types.
The Republican Party of today (a joke) is not the same Republican Party it once was. How anyone can’t see that is mind-boggling. I thought we would see a major shift in the Republican Party after the last election. Even Joe Scarborough said if the party didn’t change there would be no chance to get back in the White House and that if the base listened to people like Rush and a certain network all the time nothing would change. I don’t agree with Joe a lot of the time but at least he showed intelligence in his observations about what the Republican Party had turned into and why they lost the last election
So what has happened? Donald Trump is in the lead using scare tactics. It’s even worse this time around. So, no, I don’t see people like Angelina turning to this Republican Party ever. My own father, who had voted Republican and Democrat, when alive was disgusted with what the RP had turned into, and he was old and conservative.
Jayna, I 100% agree with you about the GOP, but not Angelina. I used to be a fan until I read a spate of bios (Halperin, Morton, several pop hagiographies) over the summer. I thought it would be neat, but I grew increasingly squicked-out by direct Jolie quotes that appear in all the books. She’s an Ayn Rand fan, which suggests to me that she has (like most Rand fans) some fantasy of her own exceptionalism/ability to survive the collapse of the world or whatever. Add into that her longtime obsession with dark things–knives, violence in sex play, death, etc.—and her seeming lack of concern that her kids do things like find dead birds and bring them to her? Rather creepy. She laughed at the last one when describing it in an interview, IIRC.
Also, I thought it was strange that when she was interviewed to promote Unbroken, she talked about laying awake at night and not knowing what she wanted to do with her life, unaware that Louis Zamperini was her neighbor. Now that I’ve read more about her I think that’s a sign of something fundamentally odd about her, emotionally. She has so successfully managed her own PR that people forget that this was the woman who said she wanted to hire someone to kill her, post-Gia. So, I think anything is possible with Angelina now and in the future. Even the GOP!
Jolie and Brad on Rand:
http://www.motherjones.com/media/2009/07/im-rand
Jolie on hiring a hitman: http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12227267.Jolie_reveals_drama_of_how_she_tried_to_hire__a_hitman_to_kill_her/
I have no bone in this fight, but you comment if just off the wall.
( similarities more often: being picky about film roles, passionate about acting, etc. Both of them are intense, jump-in-with-both-feet types.)
You just described the similarities between her and million of people around the world so I’m not seeing your point. Angelina is 40 not in her 30’s and from interviews posted here she talk about her past.
( undergone so many major public persona/style shifts.)
Do you mean she grow up and her style has evolved like everyone does? I hate to tell you this, but that’s part of growing up, that does not mean if you a liberal you go to become a neo-conservative.
I’m starting to think you only had one agenda here and it has nothing to do with this post.
Ian Halperin and Morton are both discredited tabloid journos who had to apologise for lies about Angelina in their book (ie about her sleeping with her mum’s boyfriend, which was an outrageous lie). The books were heavily discredited and it would be a serious mistake to put any stock into such rubbish.
@Neah23, an agenda? How would you even *have* an agenda about celebrities? It’s not politics, it’s acting and celebrity coverage. So, I don’t get ANY credit for spending money to see Girl, Interrupted or Hackers in theaters back in the day? 😉
I liked her, I read some books about her that quoted her heavily–on collecting knives, cutting herself during sex because it made her feel more alive, and being into kinkiness and wearing blood–and all that made me uncomfortable, so now I don’t like her as much anymore.
Also, I’m not talking about speculative stuff or anonymously sourced stories, re: her mom’s boyfriend, I’m referring to interview quotes throughout her career she’s given about her own interests in collecting knives and thinking it was romantic to wear her then-husband’s blood. I’d just never seen so many of them in one place before and they creeped me out. I don’t like 50 Shades-type stuff, either.
It’s just one of those cases where knowing more about an actor’s outside of work personality and interests turns you off—happens sometimes. I wish Kelsey Grammar was more like Frasier Crane or Jenna Elfman was more like Dharma Finkelstein, too, but they’re not. I can remember a time (pre-his divorce from Nicole Kidman) in my teens when I saw Tom Cruise movies and wasn’t distracted by his religious beliefs/Scientology. That’s what makes some people good actors, I guess.
Goodness, there seems to be an extreme amount of rosiness regarding communism. In practice, it does not work out. There is a reason it is dying out.
I think there is a lot of immaturity here when it comes to politics. It comes across as a bunch of uneducated people yelling at those who don’t agree. Pathetic really.
I actually think the political discussions here are more intelligent and nuanced than those on many general interest websites.
Communism, as practiced, did not “work out” in the Soviet Union and many Eastern European countries. That said, some commenters here have noted that they and their families had a better standard of living under communism than their present standard of living. We shouldn’t ignore those points of view because they are not the same as our own.
Chinese authorities would say that they have a communist system, and their economy seems to be doing pretty well. There are more political philosophies in heaven and earth than are contemplated in modern American political discourse.
I think it is the exact other way around. There has, for a long time been an extreme amount of rosiness for capitalism. And we all most certainly know by now, that capitalism does not, and never will, work out. You have the testimonies of those who lived under communism. Who are you, to denounce their testimony? It speaks of ignorance and misinformation to go against their testimony imo. NB I am no supporter of communism per se, however the American system of no health care for people is simply not working out.
I assume all true republicans, bring against wealth redistribution and thus communism, refuse to use Medicare or Medicaid and also refuse to cash their social security checks (taken from the working young who have been told they will never receive those benefits, and today’s recipients are taking out far more than they ever contributed)…….crickets….yeah, that’s what I thought.
Ann Romney is on Medicare. Ann Romney never contributed to FICA or Medicare but she uses spousal share Medicare benefits.
@ Lilacflowers
And the media didn’t really report that during Romney’s presidential campaign, I suppose?
That must be the “freedom of the press” which is highly esteemed in the West and which is what the West is famed for *SorryForCynicism*.
Quite a few of the most prosperous countries practice capitalism. I believe it works. Who are you to tell me that my experience isn’t good.
But just because one experiences it doesn’t mean they are perfectly informed.