Here ^^ is a photo of Sarah Silverman at the Vanity Fair Oscar party on Sunday. That pose… wow. Anyway, as much as I think Sarah Silverman and Michael Sheen are one of the oddest celebrity-couples out there, I have to admit that they do complement each other pretty well. He’s allegedly pretty anti-marriage, and while he’s a devoted father to Lily (Lily’s mom is Kate Beckinsale), my guess is that he’s probably not interested in having any more kids. I think that’s probably one of big reasons why he didn’t work out with Rachel McAdams – she probably wanted to get married and have a kid and he didn’t. So now he’s with Sarah Silverman, who doesn’t really want kids either. She tweeted this late Monday, seemingly apropos of nothing:
“As a comic always working & on the road I have had to decide between motherhood & living my fullest life & I chose the latter. Men don’t have to do that. I’d so love to be a fun dad, coming home from the road & being my best fun dad self. So this is just a lil f–k all y’all bc u can’t be a woman w/out sacrifice & that’s the fact jack. And I ❤️ my comedian brothers that acknowledge this truth. They’re my family & for a lot of us women comic sisters, our only family
[From Sarah Silverman’s Twitter]
True story: did you know Silverman is 46 years old? While it’s not outside the realm of possibilities that a 46-year-old woman can become a first-time mother, I also think that choosing to be child-free is something Silverman decided a long time ago. I wasn’t even aware that Silverman still does consistent stand-up, or that she’s always on the road. Is she? I’ll take her word for it. As for her choice… that’s what it is, a personal choice. Some women and men don’t want kids. Some women and men prioritize their careers. Some women and men don’t believe you have to have children to be part of a family. She’s also right that it IS different for women and that most men don’t have to make these kinds of choices.
Photos courtesy of WENN.
Sarah Silverman is my celebrity doppleganger if we are being generous, and I have kind of a love/hate relationship with her.
She’s speaking the truth here for sure, but shes popping a squat like my drunk friend used to when we took pics at the bar. We never understood it, and I still do not understand now that Sarah is doing it too.
Sarah got seriously owned with those tweets. She said men never have to sacrifice. A military wife pointed out her husband didn’t see their baby until she was months old as he was on tour. Sarah Silverman represents what is wrong with modern feminists; entitled and out of touch, constantly seeing everything as a battle between men and women.
Yeah, that was stupid. Plenty of men make serious sacrifices to provide for their families. My dad is now dealing with the side effects of years of manual labor / construction work he did because it supported our family and so my mom did not have to work when my siblings got ill. I consider that a serious sacrifice. You are correct that it makes her appear out of touch and elitist.
@Sam not addressing any of the rest, but I agree with you about wanting to be mommy tracked. I chose to be and I’m soooo thankful we can do it (it’s a financial house of cards tho, very stressful). Personally I didn’t even know I really wanted kids much, but once I did I was desperate to stay home and raise them- forever I wish so I could volunteer at school, etc but I have to go back when they go to school. Anyway I think it’s a real issue that we act like it’s a choice for everyone. It’s not. I’m really frustrated that it went from mostly choice for women to work, to mostly need. As in- one income really doesn’t support a middle class existence anymore. I wish it did, but it doesn’t. So back to the point, I chose mommy track (again- not addressing the discussion in general, just that one piece for me)
‘It went from mostly a choice for women to work’. What? No.
Women have ALWAYS worked, and not by choice, but out of necessity.
I don’t think she meant that men don’t have to sacrifice *at all*, she meant that men don’t have to choose between children and their career. The military example kinda proves her point. The father missed out on his child because he was doing his job, he didn’t have to give up his job to have the child.
Also, I don’t think ‘feminism’ means what you think it means.
I think you give too much in your example. I don’t think many women are greatly pressured to quit their jobs when they have children. If the current debate going on is any indication, working women WANT longer maternity leaves, greater flexibility and work from home options to spend with their kids. The OPPOSITE seems to be true – women largely want more time with our kids and aren’t getting it. And men do too.
I think the predominant issue is that women are still expected to shoulder a majority of domestic labor – whether they work or not.
@Sam the Pink – they just get Mommy Tracked. They may not have to quit, but they give up any career momentum and chance for advancement. And if you think women don’t have to make huge sacrifices in their careers in order to be moms, you are sadly mistaken.
@ Sam the Pink “I don’t think many women are greatly pressured to quit their jobs when they have children. ”
You “don’t think” ≠ reality, just saying.
Because guess which gender of parent ends up giving up their job when they have a baby and find they can’t afford childcare? There’s a reason the phrase “mommy track” exists, too.
Bridget: except you miss my point. A large portion of working women WANT the so-called “Mommy track.” They would rather trade the advancement for more time off, flexibility, more maternity leave, etc. The women I work with are all pragmatists and get that their time is finite, and that you cannot have all the time in the world for work and all the time in the world for your family. There must be trade-offs. And there’s been substantial polling on the issue, and most of it reveals an uncomfortable truth – a majority of employed women polled stated that career advancement is less important to them than building a quality family life. You are operating under the idea that both are equally possible for the same person, but you are sadly mistaken if you think that.
I’m a lawyer, I get it very well – the time and effort needed to become a partner will generally preclude you from having any kind of satisfying home life. Most female partners I’ve met don’t have kids (or at most, they have 1). If they have a few, they generally paid for help caring for them. Most will openly concede that work impaired their home lives. I don’t want that kind of life (and that’s just for me – I know some people love that kind of life). I could be a partner or I could have time with my kids – both are not feasible, and I do not believe any amount of change in the workplace will alter that. But I think this concern about the “Mommy track” is very often just a refusal to acknowledge the finiteness of time and that ultimately, we do have to make choices about priorities.
What do you think pragmatism is in the first place? They accept the trade off, knowing that for many, many women the only way they can keep a career at all is to accept the Mommy Track. Most men are not subject to the same standard. That’s just a fact.
What you’re trying to say is that the women you know are okay with being Mommy Tracked, and so therefore it’s not a problem.
No, Bridget, I’m saying that the Mommy Track is pragmatism. You are operating under the assumption that a woman who elects to take more time off and devote less of her limited time to the business should be treated in the exact same manner as a woman who does not. Which….is kind of bizarre.
Let me point something out to you – the woman next to me in my office is the same age as me. We started the same year (one month apart, me before her). She is married, they have no children, do not plan of children. Over the term of my law career, I have had 3 children and taken maternity leave for all 3, adding up to about 1 year in total. She has not. So when you add up actual experience, she has worked 1 year (and some change when you count time off) more than me. She has 1 year of experience that I do not have. When the time comes for things like raises, promotions, etc. – and they compare me to her – you are essentially arguing that she and I should be treated exactly the same and no consideration in the least should be paid to the fact that she has at least 1 year of experience over me (and that gap will likely widen, as my husband and I would love to have 1-2 more kids). Is that fair to her? Or to me? Or to the business, or the clients? What you refer to as the Mommy Track, I view as the simply pragmatism of business. So how would you treat the two of us?
@Sam – what is your point? I’m not trying to be rude, but I think you’ve lost yourself. You said “I don’t think women are expected to quit their jobs” but the point everyone else is making is that while women may not have to quit their jobs, their career trajectory is changed by the very fact that they have children, and in a way that is not changed for men that have kids. Women may not be forced to quit, but their earning and advancement potential is drastically undercut, while still carrying the hours and workload while balancing home and parenting duties.
Bridger – I find it very telling that you don’t answer my question posed by the scenario above – because I think you know the answer, same as me, but don’t want to really say it. What you call the “Mommy track” is often, instead, the realities of business. Women with children DO, on average, work less over the course of our lives and accrue less experience in our professions. That is not a conspiracy, or patriarchy – that is biology. And a business will naturally seek to promote and advance those workers who have devoted the most time to it and rack up the most experience. And this will always impact women more precisely because, right now, we’re still making the babies. I don’t know what you think the answer is – to treat every single worker the same regardless of the realities of experience? That makes little sense. Businesses can be as mommy-friendly as possible (and I support that, because it retains talent) but at the end of the day, such policies cannot rectify the experience gap that will result. I have no issue with my co-worker having more experience than me, and I am not upset that her career will probably advance more quickly and further than mine. I am content with that because I realize her priorities and mine diverge.
@samthepink, just want to provide you some encouragement if you are a younger lawyer wanting to have kids. I’m in my mid-40s; I am an equity partner in a large law firm; and I have four kids. I did the mommy track early on and then worked hard and caught up. The mommy track/part-time thing was wonderful when the kids were little, and I did certainly get penalized for it professionally- but you have time in your career to make it up (granted, I started very young with kids). I just wanted to encourage you! Have all the kids you want and don’t give up anything in your career. It can be done!
Sam the Pink. You are talking about something entirely different than what Silverman was referencing. What you’ve said entirely supports the point she made. Women have to make vastly different choices than men and it is not because of “biological” reasons, it’s because societal expectations on the role of women and childcare.
I’ve been practising law for over 20 years. In all that time, I have never once encountered a male lawyer ask whether having children would impact his career. And every single female lawyer I know has had to weigh those choices and decide how to juggle the two if the decision was to have a child. The end choice may well be pragmatic, but the fact that only women are put in the position of making that choice is the real issue Silverman was addressing.
Sam the Pink. You are talking about something entirely different than what Silverman was referencing. What you’ve said entirely supports the point she made. Women have to make vastly different choices than men and it is not because of “biological” reasons, it’s because societal expectations on the role of women and childcare.
I’ve been practising law for over 20 years. In all that time, I have never once encountered a male lawyer ask whether having children would impact his career. And every single female lawyer I know has had to weigh those choices and decide how to juggle the two if the decision was to have a child. The end choice may well be pragmatic, but the fact that only women are put in the position of making that choice is the real issue Silverman was addressing.
@ Sam
What you say makes complete sense to me, most of it. But I still agree with sarah silverman, and I don’t think she’s out of touch. What it boils down to, is that you can’t “have it all”. It’s either an amazing career, or fulfilling home life, or do both but always feel exhausted and guilty for not being able to give 100% to both aspects of your life. Men, for whatever reason, seem not to have to make that choice. They don’t have to breastfeed, they don’t have to recover from grueling labor/C section and they often seem content to only see their kids in the evenings and on weekends. And some of those same men are lucky enough to have partners that can make up the shortfall. It truly does seem like biology, but you can’t deny that it’s a sh*t deal sometimes.
Of course there may be a woman out there that can have it all and not feel guilty and exhausted. I have yet to meet one, though. I certainly don’t expect to be one. Most likely, I’ll have kids, have a nanny, have a passable career-not a stellar one and I’ll have to make do with that because you can’t have everything in life.
Addendum: And Sarah SIlverman made that choice. She stands by her choice, but she’s aware that it was a sacrifice. For some women it’s not, and that’s fine. But for her, it seems it was, and that sucks.
and the sweets back about the military father prove her point exactly!
What bothers me is that a military husband missing out ISN’T the norm though. And realistically, most dads don’t have the same expectations and pressure that moms do. It’s not to imply that no dads share responsibilities (my husband is pretty great about it) but I feel like people are focusing on the exceptions. And that expectation is tough on both parents. Think about how many dads are expected to miss out on kids events, or how many dads are have to remind “dads aren’t babysitters”?
She may not have worded it correctly, but I strongly disagree that it makes her seem out of touch an elitist, and I’d wager that an awful lot of women who are asked to make career sacrifices in order to even have a family that their male counterparts aren’t asked to make, would agree.
Well she was talking about comedian dads. And the military man has the wife to take care of the children and they had those children knowing that the dad would be away doing military things for large amounts of time. I don’t think she was trying to battle women who are not feminists it sounds like she was speaking about her personal emotions and being a comedian. Devils advocate. Carry on.
That was your read from this?
It’s not about putting men against women, its about understanding that there are a lot of expectations that differ based on your gender and they aren’t always fair or healthy.
If a military mom had been away from her child since birth, she wouldn’t be viewed as making a sacrifice like that woman’s husband is, she would be viewed as a bad mother.
And the mom is again, at home taking care of the child, while the husband is out pursuing his career. It isn’t exactly the best anecdotal counter example.
I know a decent amount of military people, and honestly, your example rings hollow. I have never, ever heard a military mother referred to as a bad mother – ever. The vast majority of people think of them the same as men – that they’re doing honorable service. Have you actually seen an example of a military mother getting lambasted for being in the service?
I’m not talking about opinion within the military, I’m talking about public reception.
And the reason there isn’t an outcry is because it almost never happens. When it comes to moms being away from their children and being called bad mothers, go read the Daily Fail, or TMZ. You don’t need to look far to see women being called worse for less. And please, let us not pretend the american military is good and fair and just to the women in service. If they support mothers, that may be the only thing they get right.
Also, as a heads up, my brother is a communications specialist for the Canadian military, and I worked directly a cohort of retired senior officers during my federal government tenure. So I am also familiar with a variety military ideologies.
…You do know that The Mail and TMZ are basically troll sites, right? That they’re not exactly accurate reflections of public sentiment in any appreciable way.
You used your ‘experience’ with the military to refute my example, but then come back with the fact that you feel a comment board doesn’t represent peoples feelings? The few military people you talked to do, but a comment board on an internationally available website do not.
Either you believe we play on an equal playing field, and are cherry picking data to support your opinion, an opinion I deeply disagree with; or you are playing devil’s advocate and nit picking, which is valueless.
I think the idea here is that men don’t HAVE to. Many do, but it’s not an expectation for most men like it is with women. A father be totally hands-on*, or work long hours and only really see the kids on the weekend (or less) and society doesn’t really give a damn as long as he’s not a deadbeat. Women are under constant scrutiny for their child-rearing methods. We’re expected to be career women and full-time moms, anything less is shameful.
*I admit stay-at-home dads may be subject to even worse shaming than stay-at-home moms, but I have no evidence either way
Couldn’t agree more. Considering how few options women had in the 50s, a contentious, self-absorbed “feminism” was probably needed at that time. But now that women have so many opportunities and choices to make in education, work and family, there really needs to be an emphasis on our selves in terms of explaining our individual desires, not just crapping on things some men may want for themselves or like to do. That’s great for them. When do women get to enjoy their gains and progress and stop trying to get their foot on everyone’s neck? Even men who are in a much worse situation than we are in terms of being self-actuated and enjoying a life of emotional, creative and economic liberty?
“When do women get to enjoy their gains and progress and stop trying to get their foot on everyone’s neck?”
Um, what? I know I’m trying to get the foot off of a number of women’s necks. Sometimes literally. Women experience gendered violence on a level that men never face. Don’t talk about how we should sit back and rest on our laurels when our sisters are being beaten to death, abused and assaulted. And that is the visible violence.
Women experience more serious forms of spousal assault than men.
4 in 10 women victimized by their spouse report being physically injured (42%), more than twice the proportion of male victims (18%) (2009).5
Women are three times more likely to report being beaten, choked, sexually assaulted, or threatened with a gun or knife by their partner or ex-partner (2009).6
Most victims of domestic homicide are female, while most perpetrators are male…
95% of spousal homicide victims in Ontario are female (2011).8
Of the homicide cases with domestic violence involvement which occurred in Ontario from 2002 to 2009, 80% of victims were women, 12% were children and 8% were men.10
Of the cases reviewed in Ontario’s 2011 Domestic Violence Death Review Committee Report, 88% of spousal homicide perpetrators were male while 89% of victims were female.11
The rate of domestic homicides against women has dropped in Canada…
The rate of homicides against female spouses dropped 46% from 1991 to 2011.12
Less than one-third (30%) of female spousal violence victims state that the incident was reported to police (2009), down from 36% in 2004.16
http://www.citizenship.gov.on.ca/owd/english/ending-violence/domestic_violence.shtml
Not equivalent and not fair. It’s pretty obvious that she is talking about men in the comedy/entertainment world. The model is man on the road, wife and kids at home, and it is rarely questioned. If a woman left her kids and husband at home and rarely saw them, she’d be skewered, but celebrity men do it all the time. She had an unfair choice to make, and she made the best of it.
She didn’t compare herself to military families, though. She said male comedians aren’t faced with the same choices and realities as female comedians, which is true.
Military families make huge sacrifices well outside the norm of average American families. They’re always going to be an exception to everything, and I don’t think they should be used to counter a salient point made about women having to choose between family and career. Because in every other sector, that is a real issue facing women more than men.
Allow me to assure you that women in military families make plenty of sacrifices if their male partner is the one away. There were three of us, and while my father missed out on a lot, the flip side to that is my mother did the entirety of the work of child raising while he was gone. After they divorced, she actually made a comment to me years later that she wasn’t afraid of being a single mother simply because she already knew she could handle the burden alone. (Don’t even get me started on the substandard health and child care available to military families.) Your friend’s husband is making a sacrifice, but so is she as a mother and wife whose partner spends an extensive period of time away – she just doesn’t notice it as much because we’ve been socially primed to find that sacrifice acceptable in military families.
You’re painting all feminists with a pretty broad brush because you don’t like a single comment. I don’t think what Sarah Silverman said makes her out of touch or elitist. Women are confronted with more difficult decisions in regard to career and parenting. It’s even more of a quandary if you’re a single parent.
Also, this has probably already been pointed out in the thread, but a military parent not seeing their kid is hardly unusual. It’s part of the job of being in the armed forces. Deployments happen. Having a family in that world is a choice that they make.
There are still men and families who think like that, who think that it’s normal family dinamic to have an absentee dad (in some way). Captains, soldiers, performers of any kind….but(!) not all men and not all families. My hubs and me are archeologists, and before babyGeeky we spent up to 6months a year on the field together, and then some apart (each on theor own excursion). After babyGeeky, my husband is the one who seriously despaors if he can’t see him for the most of the day and he agonizes over the idea of a few months without seeing or being with his child. He’s trying to change his career bc of it.
I think it’s the worst when you have no choice, when you can’t find another job and you have to be absent. And I think children totally sense when their dad is not around and it’s not the same. My dad was a very vital part of our parenting unit, just like my hubs is in mine!
Otoh, honestly, I wouldn’t mind spending a week or two on the field. Yeah, I’d miss my child, but no one would die and he wouldn’t be traumatised. i’m just more ambitious than hubs and I’m still trying to admit that to myself and be ok with it. I can totally sense people judging me when I let my parents watch him for few hours a day while I was creating my first exhibition. He was six months old, but some people were judging me like I left him alone and went out to party-I was building my resume in (admiteddly, probably false) hope it’ll help me to get a normal job someday.
Well, this is new. She always maintained for years that she did not have children because she suffers from major depression and did not want to risk passing the illness along to kids (which I totally understand).
While maybe she did not intend it, she does sound insulting. Plenty of us find our “fullest lives” as mothers. I know I have. They are not mutually exclusive. I do quibble that men are immune from the pressures. I have friends who have spent long periods away from their kids (military, missionaries, etc.) and they do get comments about “missing out on your kids’ lives” – but not to the extent women do. But her comment itself is very poorly phrased and I don’t blame the people pushing back on it a little.
I don’t think she intended on being insulting to anybody, def poor phrasing. By saying she wanted to live her fullest life, I believe she meant her own life, not everybody else’s.
She is completely wrong on men not having to sacrifice anything. I applaud people in the military who are willing to be away from their families for so long. My SO spends twelve hours every day working away from home, he hates to be away and only really see our daughter on the weekends, but I by him doing that I get to be home with her and be mom all the time. It’s wonderful. Sacrifice comes in a lot of forms.
As opposed to the narrative women hear where childbearing the fullest expression of womanhood? I don’t find it particularly problematic, just bluntly honest. Having children means sacrifice and compromise, simple as that. You will have to give up some dreams in order to fulfill theirs. Nothing wrong with that, but if its HER dreams she wants to pursue, the realistic answer is that children can’t be a part of her life.
It’s not about her speaking for herself – it’s how she framed it. There is no conflict between having a “full life” and having kids. What the reality is that she chose a profession that is very hard to handle with children – and there is no shame in that. I don’t doubt she is okay with her choices. But the framing sets it up as though a “full life” and having children are in opposition – they are not.
She framed it just fine – she used the possessive “my” in describing a full life, one that is for herself. Some people are fulfilled through children. Some people would be hindered in gaining their fulfillment with children. Simple as that.
During her prime family planning years, she would have been working ridiculously long hours and on the road a lot. I get what she’s saying, she didn’t feel like she had the ability or even the option to do both, whereas her male counterparts were able to take off. Do I agree that no men make sacrifices as dads? Of course not. But is there the same expectations that men make the same sacrifices? No, there’s not.
I never would have put her and Sheen together, but they seem to work. I love that she and Beckinsale are close as well, Lily is a really lucky kid.
It’s not so much that her male counterparts can take off, it’s that they have kids and leave them home with their mothers while they continue to tour. but as a woman, the pressure would be greater on Sarah Silverman to take time off and be with her baby. And also the physical reality of pregnancy and recovery would have limited her road time in a way it doesn’t men.
I thought that was what I said? Comedians tour and go on the road. I.e. “Take off”
I guess I don’t understand how you’re using “take off.” In your comment it seems like you’re saying they have the option of taking time off, but what Sarah is saying is, “I’d so love to be a fun dad, coming home from the road & being my best fun dad self,” which to me means male comedians go on the road, come home and be fun dad, before going on the road again. I apologize if I’ve misconstrued your words.
The reality is the same either way, though. As a woman, the physical reality of having a child would limit Sarah, at least for a little while, and then the pressure would be greater on her to stay home and care for the child, which would directly impact her career in a negative way.
Comedy is a job that entails long nights and trips on the road. Women indeed have limitations – carrying the baby, healing from childbirth, and if they’re nursing they need to stay with the baby. A baby can represent a very real tether to the home, making it difficult if not impossible to go out and tour.
Exactly. It’s not really compatible with the touring lifestyle. I’m trying to think of a female comedian who tours regularly and has kids and I can’t. The only ones I can think of (like Ali Wong) got TV work, either writing or performing, which can have long hours but is also a much more grounded, stay in one place job that also comes with built in hiatuses a couple times a year.
I guess congrats to her if she feels that way. If she’s happy, healthy, and regret-free sounds like she made the right choice.
I imagine a lot of people are going to be piling on soon, talking about how insulting this is, and how you can live your best life as a mother, etc etc. If you’re insulted by this tweet, maybe you should think about that before you start telling child-free people how they don’t understand love because they’ve never had children, or similar drivel. We have been putting up with your insults and condescension for years, this is just the flip side of that coin.
yup 🙂
Yes ! How many times have we heard “you’re not living a full life until you have kids”? It goes both ways. I say to each their own. I don’t see any reason to have kids. All I see are people (not all) resenting their children and kicking them out as soon as they turn 18 so they can finally be “free”. If kids are such a burden to you, why’d you have them?
Or, you’ve never known love until you’ve had a child. I hear this from people who are too busy with their kids to spend time with their parents. Head scratcher.
I have a child and while I adore him and wouldn’t change my life, I know that there are some things and way of life (and being carefee) I’ve experienced before him, and can’t experience/do now. Not many (I’m not the one to stop all traveling and adventures because of a baby, we’re on a trip on another continent right now), but some. I can’t stay up late and party like before bc I’m breastfeeding and mister is up by 6am! So yes, I agree:some think of pre-child days as fullest life, some think of post-child days as such… What matters is that it should be your choice and your bussiness, nobody else’s.
Amen!
Hear hear
Total agreement. Sarah said HER fullest life. Hers alone. The reverse narratives are so often phrased as “motherhood is the greatest most fulfilling event ALL women can experience”.
I don’t disagree with her. She is allowed to be different from someone like myself. I actually think it takes courage to not have children, even though I doubt she struggles with normal struggles that every other woman would face when having to explain why they don’t want children. Still a struggle, though, and not easy no matter what. I chose to have all five of my children because this is my idea of my best life… I grew up pretty shi**y with no actual parents and disliking people in general, so having children was one way, selfish way I might add, to create a personal team of people so that I wouldn’t have to fool with as many people on the outside of it. I know it’s not the most common way to go about it, but it’s the most therapeutic way I know and my children love the hell outta me, lol. Different strokes and all…but I can’t deny how impressive I find it to go the opposite route. People should do exactly the thing that makes them happiest and I have no criticism of their choices.
She still annoys the crap out of me though.
I am a mom, love my grown kids, and acknowledge that they created a right turn in my life.
I support any person’s choice on how they want to conduct their life, who they choose to love, who they choose to be with.
I cut her slack also in her choice of words. She wasn’t writing a edited peer reviewed article. just stating an opinion, we all parse out such minutia in what people say and try to vilify them for it. Face value is sometimes all that is there. She is talking about HER world, her experience and observation in it, not every single permutation and combination of how those words will feel to every other human.
Deep breath, move on.
Peace
“most men don’t have to make these kinds of choices”
No one forces women to have children with men who care more about being on the road for months. You can actually make men choose between career and kids.
It can also be that men do not feel comfortable making the choice because it is not culturally acceptable.
There’s a famous case of a few years ago where a major law firm (couple hundred lawyers) finally got around to instituting paternity leave for new dads (like 2 weeks off). They were shocked that in the first year of the program, 2 or 3 men took advantage of it. When they did surveys to figure out why, most men responded that they felt like it was not culturally acceptable (in the firm and in general) for men to take time off for births, and that they feared being judged for it. So in reality, men want to spend more time with their kids too. So I think it’s inaccurate to say that men are not forced to make choices – I think men do consider these things, but the overwhelming cultural messages keep them from being honest about it or upfront about it. Men get very strong messages that they must provide for their families as much as possible and that not doing so makes one weak or bad – and that’s culturally become this idea that a man must work as much as possible. So in reality, these ideas hurt them as well and they do struggle with it, but it’s far more hidden from the mainstream discussion. For women, feminism has done a good job of bringing the discussion to the forefront, but that doesn’t mean men do not have to think about these issues as well.
What if they choose the career after they have the kids. You can’t give them back.
And of course the sanctimommy brigade is going to take offence at a woman saying her “fullest life” involves not having children. OF COURSE.
Pro tip: she was talking about how to live HER fullest life, not someone else’s. NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT YOU.
Yeah, I don’t see the outrage about that. If you want kids, your fullest life will include them. If you don’t necessarily want children, and are passionate about a career, your fullest life is without kids.
I’m more annoyed by the people who are like ‘no its all fair, moms and dad both make sacrifices, don’t forget about the meeennnnnssssss’.
I have kids. I enjoy my life a lot. Her choice not to have kids doesn’t change that at all and doesn’t make my choices less worthy. I don’t really get the need to vilify someone for saying that she doesn’t want kids like that.
Was it Blair Koenig of STFU Parents who coined the term “sanctimommy”? Even if it wasn’t her, I still treasure her deeply. As do many of my friends with kids, so she’s out here bringing people together haha! In my experience there are three types of sanctimommies – the first is a deeply insecure one-upper who has to prove that *Betty Draper Voice* “no one has anything better”, the second secretly hates her life and is overcompensating, and the third has always been an egomaniac/in love with the sound of her own voice, so being annoying about kids is just a natural progression for her.
I thought there would be sanctimommy outrage too but there wasn’t. Only one person thought it was offensive in the comments, that’s pretty damn good. She was clearly talking about herself, not anyone else.
I recently made the hard decision to stay home with my baby until I go back to school this fall and back to work in a few years… I took no offense. I never thought I would have children. It’s not more or less fulfilling than a life without kids can be, it’s simply a different kind of joy and fulfillment. As far as getting “mommy tracked” I agree with the previous poster that the problem is shouldering the full time job of domestic work, and trying to work 40+ hours a week at the office. It’s very difficult to navigating. If you breastfeed for the first year as recommended, that alone consumes hours of your day. Should someone who has to take frequent breaks at work to pump, who has to leave at least a few times a month to take their baby to the doctor, who has to leave work immediately at the end of working hours to pick up their child from daycare be treated the same as a woman who does not take breaks, does not leave a few times a month to go to doctor visits and who works late? I don’t know. Sarah speaks the truth. Having kids will slow down your career in ways that are direct or ways that are indirect. Then you face the very difficult reality that your baby is changing by the day, is only a kid once, and babies need constant attention and interaction throughout the day to optimize the crucial window of development they’re in. Even if you go to a wonderful daycare, the reality is there are other kids who need attention. So you either choose to pay huge amounts of money for a private nanny, choose to pay for a daycare knowing your baby isn’t getting their needs met quickly all of the time, or stay home and sacrifice your career if you have the luxury open to you… Most single moms do not. I can’t imagine how difficult raising a child and working full time by yourself would be. Those women deserve all the credit.
I agree with her. She is talking about her experience in the entertainment industry where she is a performer. So her work is her physical body. Taking time out to have children affects your ability to work, and you have to make that choice.
Men can have children at any point in time in their lives.
They do not have to decide within a specific time frame and then be forced to answer the questions, ” Are you going to have children?” followed by “Why not?” and finally told, ” Well really it isn’t too late, women are now having babies well into their forties”
Siiiggghhh
No man that I know of has had to make that choice and then defend it from insensitive people.
Agree with everything she says, and also with those who point out she’s mainly referring to her own background and environment. On a superficial note, I can’t believe she’s almost 50!! How even.
Unfortunately she is playing up to the presumption that as a childless woman she has to somehow explain why she is childless.
No she doesn’t. End of.
The fact that she has gone out of her way to do so and make comparisons to men/women and parenthood seems to suggest she believes that there is a need to feel guilty about her choice. There isn’t.
There is also a subtle implication that one can only live life to ‘the fullest’ if one is childless. That of course is a crock of shit.
Technically she has a boyfriend with a teen or young adult thereby making her not entirely childless, as said child stays and interacts with both parents.
All in all just a bunch of mindless bullshit voiced by Sarah.
P.S. I thought she was mid thirties.
As a childless woman I spend a lot of time explaining my life choices to total strangers who can’t believe I won’t “give that nice man of yours babies.” My husband, who does not want kids either, does not have to explain himself. but when people find out we don’t have kids, it’s “what are you waiting for,” and when we say we don’t want them, they look directly at me and will say the rudest things to my face about how selfish I’m being and what a wonderful father my husband would be and how dare I deprive him of this experience (he doesn’t even want to have). People try to make me feel guilt about my choice on a near-daily basis. I’m not a “real woman,” i don’t know what love “really is,” I’m selfish, I should divorce my husband so he can find a “nice girl” to give him babies (that he doesn’t want!). I would very much prefer not having to talk about it but is a constant presence in my life, the judgment and attempts at shaming me for my choices. Society still very much expects women to hit pause on their lives to procreate and a lot of people get offended if not outright angry when you don’t comply.
And she isn’t saying you can’t live “the fullest” life with kids, she’s saying, “I can’t live *my* fullest life.” Those are her words. “My fullest life.” It’s not a judgment on motherhood, she’s saying kids weren’t compatible with her goals.
Tell those nosy judgey people to mind their own damn business. I can’t stand that sh*t ! How is it selfish to NOT want kids? Don’t most people have kids because they think their kids will take care of them in old age? Isn’t THAT selfish? Also, how dare a man not want kids…it must be his miserable wife who won’t get pregnant for him. My God what year is it?
I have taken to inventing horrible accidents and illnesses to explain why I can’t have kids. My goal is to make the busybodies feel as awful as possible for sticking their noses in where they’re not wanted. The last time someone brought it up (a week ago), I told her I was in a horrible car accident that robbed me of the ability to have children. I said, “Thank you for bringing up the most painful thing in my life.” She got very quiet and looked very embarrassed, and I hope she never asks anyone such a personal question again.
“Don’t most people have kids because they think their kids will take care of them in old age?”. Not the people I know. It’s an individual choice. I had (I’m semi retired) a career which included several senior management posts, and for the most part I had an interesting and fulfilling time, if a demanding one. That career did not,however, compare to the interesting and fulfilling time I had as a single parent raising my now grown up daughter. Who I don’t expect to look after me. But each to their own.
Annetommy go to any internet message board about not having kids and watch how many people gleefully tell us to enjoy our senior years alone and unloved. People might try to say otherwise in person but online there’s a very strong bent towards having kids so you aren’t alone in old age. It’s total bull, nursing homes are full of lonely parents, but they genuinely seem to believe it.
Her choice and good for her knowing herself and being clear as to why she decided as she did.
I always enjoy these motherhood vs. life posts. All my friends with kids are constantly complaining about how hard it is and how they had to “give up” so much. They act like a baby was forcibly dropped on their doorstep by a stork. I find this irritating, but I also completely empathize since I don’t want kids. I have no idea how I would make progress in my career if I had to double as a mommy. It would be impossible for me based on the amount of energy I was blessed with (not much). Some women CAN do it though.
Has anyone asked her if she wants to START a family at 46? It’s not as if she’s 36. The pressure and the need to defend your choice is greater I imagine.
I think she wants to start a conversation and talks as if she has to decide every year anew… Eh..
anyways…46? damn she looks great!
Reading these laughing at how personally attacked some debaters feel they are when a general statement is made …it’s natural ..but funny to read…love how some argue an exception as a rule….and others think moms are entitled to special treatment….keep them coming !!!
I often read about childless women being pressured that way. My personal experience is quite different though. I have a boy of 13 and a half and one year ago had a baby daughter (at age 40) with my new partner. You wouldn’t believe how many people wondered to my face why I would want to “go through all that” again. Also, I seem to keep meeting childless women (and no, I never even ask if someone HAS children, let alone do they want them) who explain to me that they would NEVER want to have children, rather have their cool jobs and time to themselves and whatnot. And then I’m the one thinking: Good for you, but as you can see, I have chosen differently. Am I really the only one that happens to?
sorry but how many times do mothers say, “you dont know love until you’ve had a baby” or “being a mother is the ultimate experience you can have” blah blah blah
people who dont want or cant have kids hear stuff like that every day
Honestly, the greatest revelation ever I had: you’re selfish if you have kids AND you’re selfish if you don’t. HUMAN BEINGS WILL BE SELFISH NO MATTER WHAT.
lol
How is it selfish to not have kids though?
I am 39 years old and my husband and I made a choice to not have children. At 39, do I think it was the right one? I don’t know. Part of me feels like I should have and most of me knows it was the right choice. However, I’m 39 now and I’m not about to start popping out babies so forget that. It still does not stop my friends with kids from telling me it’s not too late for me even though they know it was our decision to not have children. I get a lot of friends with kids telling me they are envious of my life and all the time I have, etc. I have to make it clear to them that because I don’t have children I fill my time and in fact do not have an over abundance of it. I fill it because I don’t have kids. Just because I don’t have kids doesn’t mean that I sit around binge watching Melrose Place eating bon-bons. I find other constructive stuff to do. I especially love the comments I get from the baby set when I say I’m exhausted or tired. Because you know a person without kids can’t sleep shitty or have stress too??!!
I’ve been there for all my friends through the trying for babies, the showers, the births, the birthdays and I love them all and I’ve managed to keep them all despite how our lives differ. My best friend recently had baby #4 and we have drifted apart. Somehow after 3 babies before this one, “we don’t have much in common anymore” and I apparently cannot relate to her life because the 4th child makes a difference to our friendship but the 1st, 2nd or 3rd didn’t.
Sorry, I suppose in some sense I was venting!
As far as SS goes, she made the decision and I’m sure her life is full and she’s happy with that.
A woman should never be shamed for their decision to not reproduce.
It’s weird when women say “oh you’re so lucky you don’t have kids”…ummm WHO made you have kids then??? Some people act like they had kids because they just HAD to. Guess what? It’s a CHOICE ! LOL I appreciate your venting, it’s nice to hear from other women who chose not to have kids.
@me Thank you!!
And, YES! If I’m lucky then what are you? LOL, that’s what I want to say!
Word up! I also don’t appreciate listening to conversation about how hard taking care of a baby is and how little free time they have and how expensive it is. What in the world did you think it was going to be like? I feel like those things shouldn’t be a surprise. Annoying mommy blogs have been around for 15 years.
And just because I don’t have a child to look after doesn’t mean my life is some damn cake walk. Everyone has trouble and hell in their worlds.
Life isn’t a competition. You do you and leave everyone else out of it.
And it’s an unintended jab if the reason you don’t have kids is because you weren’t able to have them or couldn’t afford them, even if they don’t mean to be jabbing.
I tweeted the other day “Just because women CAN have children doesn’t mean they HAVE TO!” and OMG the replies I got from people just made me laugh.
It’s amazing how a statement about how she feels it’s best to live HER LIFE gets all these Moms up in their feelings.
Sometimes you can choose to have kids and then regret that decision.
The time one is the one that gets me. A friend of mine goes out socially way more than I do, in between very long work hours, a bunch of volunteer commitments and assisting with the care of a disabled and sick relative my raging fun night is being done with commitments by dark and hitting my bed for some quality sleep, and yet we still have to schedule everything around her because she has kids and I just couldn’t possibly understand how busy her part time working ass is.
I think people have just forgotten the concept of “live and let live”. I kind of agree with Sam the Pink that the “Mommy track” is the reality of business..yes it is but it remains a bitter pill to swallow. But it is also true that men are not called upon to make the same choices. But other than a some notable exceptions, are there really many men who can take the place of a mother in a child’s life? Do we not owe it to our kids to be the best possible parents?
For the record, I am a working mom of a toddler firmly on the mommy track. I worked out a deal with my employers that they build in flexibility in my schedule so that I can leave half an hour early and make up for it by working from home. The people who hate me the most for this deal are the other working moms who have multiple nannies at home and sit late at work on a regular basis. I am apparently ‘not committed’ to my job even if I work from home till midnight.
Eh, live and let live , I say. Frankly the sniping between parents and nonparents is ridiculous. And yes, the childless by choice crowd can be just as self-righteous as the child side. I say both side mind their own damned business.
Sigh… She’s become a terminal victim, spewing a random mess of talking points she’s stumbled upon.
Women can create life. Men don’t have that superpower. Many women choose living their fullest life as a mother, shaping a family and their community. Lots of people have to make choices in life. Poor little millionaire having to choose whether to be a mother or not…