Munroe Bergdorf identifies as a black, queer, transgender model. She’s 29 years old and British. She was recently hired to be one of the new faces of L’Oreal’s YoursTruly True Match campaign, the campaign that aims to provide makeup for a wider variety of skin tones and races. L’Oreal fired her within days after Bergdorf wrote a Facebook post about how “all white people” are racist. Her Facebook post – which she has since deleted – went viral and now the whole thing is a gigantic mess.
Earlier this week, beauty giant L’Oréal Paris made headlines for hiring transgender model Munroe Bergdorf to appear in its YoursTruly True Match ad campaign. And now they’re making headlines several days later for parting ways with the 29-year-old British model after she wrote a lengthy post on Facebook in which she decried the “racial violence of … ALL white people.”
The post has since been taken down, but the model reportedly wrote, “Honestly I don’t have energy to talk about the racial violence of white people any more. Yes ALL white people. Because most of ya’ll don’t even realise or refuse to acknowledge that your existence, privilege and success as a race is built on the backs, blood and death of people of color… Your entire existence is drenched in racism. From micro-aggression to terrorism, you guys built the blueprint for this s***…. Come see me when you realise that racism isn’t learned, it’s inherited and consciously or unconsciously passed down through privilege. Once white people begin to admit that their race is the most violent and oppressive force of nature on Earth… then we can talk.”
It didn’t take long for L’Oréal to quickly point out that her statements were at odds with the message they were trying to communicate, and end its relationship with the model.
“L’Oréal supports diversity and tolerance towards all people irrespective of their race, background, gender and religion. The L’Oréal Paris True Match campaign is a representation of these values and we are proud of the diversity of the Ambassadors who represent this campaign,” the brand said in an official statement to PEOPLE. “We believe that the recent comments by L’Oréal Paris UK Spokesperson Munroe Bergdorf are at odds with those values, and as such we have taken the decision to end the partnership with her. L’Oréal Paris remains committed to the True Match campaign and breaking down barriers in beauty.”
I’m not an “all white people” kind of person, because I find that all of the people who make those kinds of sweeping generalizations are a–holes (that’s a joke!). It seems to me that it’s especially difficult to condemn “all white people” with the same brush after Charlottesville, where a white woman literally gave her life to fight the agents of white supremacy. Munroe’s argument could have been framed better, and she has attempted to clarify in more recent Facebook posts and interviews. She says, in part:
“When I stated that ‘all white people are racist’, I was addressing that fact that western society as a whole, is a SYSTEM rooted in white supremacy – designed to benefit, prioritise and protect white people before anyone of any other race. Unknowingly, white people are SOCIALISED to be racist from birth onwards. It is not something genetic. No one is born racist,” Munroe said.
She continued, calling out L’Oréal for dropping her from its campaign. “If L’Oreal truly wants to offer empowerment to underrepresented women, then they need to acknowledge THE REASON why these women are underrepresented within the industry in the first place. This reason is discrimination – an action which punches down from a place of social privilege. We need to talk about why women of colour were and still are discriminated against within the industry, not just see them as a source of revenue.”
On all of this, I agree with her. If her argument from the beginning had been that American and British society is built on white supremacy, then of course that’s the truth. What offended people was the idea that “all white people” deserve to be painted with the same brush. It caused a lot of #NotAllWhitePeople-ing and #ReverseRacism-ing. So… yeah, I’m on both sides of this – I think L’Oreal did what they needed to do by firing Munroe, and she has every right to use her platform to speak about these issues.
Photos courtesy of WENN.
Reverse racism is not a thing.
Confused.
In what way? That it doesn’t exist? As in racism is just racism whomever utters it or as in non-whites cannot be racist?
So when my auntie (whom I quite liked and respected) said “whatever you do, do not marry a white man” was she being racist or not?
BritAfrica, The term always confused me, because reverse racism would signify the opposite of racism, which has two definitions. But reverse racism is like, being super nice to poc? Or providing reparations? Just being pedantic. Racism against whites in the states (I won’t speak for other countries) isn’t a “thing” because one of the definitions, particularly the one everyone likes to quote, presumes one group has power over the other. Which we know is true in the states. So there’s that. It’s a very muddled and confusing mess, and I try not to speak out of turn in it. Just providing context.
Ahh, so basically, the racist generalisations do not matter or count unless they are directed at Black people/non-whites then?
Ok oh. Got it!
No, racism is institutional. Certainly all kinds of people can be prejudiced and discriminatory, but racism is supported by the power structure.
@tealily-You are correct. They are different things and it’s not ‘splitting hairs’ the difference matters.
It drives me up the wall, this racism vs prejudice thing.
Prejudice goes both ways. Racism is a system of oppression so can only go one way. It’s clear enough when laid out properly.
The thing is, words have precise meanings and they also have common currency senses that aren’t quite accurate. And it ends up with people knocking seven bells out of each other even though both sides perfectly well know which of the technically accurate (system of racism) or common currency (personal prejudice) senses of the word racism that the other side is using. And round and round and round goes the pointless argument.
Munroe had a wally online because she’s sick and tired of racism. I don’t blame her and I personally don’t think she needed sacking for letting off some perfectly understandable steam – but I can see why L’Oreal felt they had to do it. Them’s the breaks when you get well paid jobs being the public face of a company. You have to, you know, not lose your cool in public and put the company in an awkward position or not represent the brand as you’ve been employed to do.
She’ll be fine. She’s increased her profile and won’t lack for work going forward. But she might well want to take a breath next time it all gets on top of her and be accurate in what she’s saying. Yes, all white people in Western societies are beneficiaries of racism. No, all white people aren’t prejudiced.
@BritAfrica
People are constantly mixing up bigotry and institutional racism.
Bigotry can show up in many forms:
– An individual believing certain races are inferior to their own.
– Discrimination based on race
– Saying or believing prejudices based on race.
Ex. If I as a black woman believed that Asians are terrible, cheap, and should not be trusted. An older latina who continuously makes anti-black statements. A native american man saying latinos breed like cats in heat. Each situation makes a generalization about a group and then reduces those groups to inhuman status. I am not from the UK but I think you get the point.You can put in your own examples there.
In your example, your aunt made a vaguely bigoted comment. You didn’t write why she said it though so it stays in the gray area until you give more information.
Institutionalized racism:
– One race is favored over another in the criminal justice system, job opportunities, educational opportunities, buying/renting, etc. Just look at Congress, most CEOs of Fortune 500 companies, whites being the predominant group in Hollywood to get jobs over everyone else. (I am using US terms but the same can be used for the UK as well.) The favoring can be done overtly or through unconscious bias. Unconscious bias in Hollywood would be having an entire white cast, even if the story is supposed to be ‘universal”. Not giving a job interview to a woman named LaKeisha even if she is qualified because her name is LaKeisha and the hiring manager does not believe that she would be a “good fit”- even though he or she never even spoken to her.
From one of my examples above: Black people can only be racist if we all got together and formed BLACKISTAN. In BLACKISTAN we have different groups of blacks and asians. In Blackistan it is difficult for Asians to get loans, to own businesses or drive cars because the black heads of state overt or covertly believe that Asians are inferior or get denied jobs because they have an Asian sounding name and more than likely don’t speak Blackinese or Gullah or a click language, whatever language you want for Blackistan. Voting is difficult for Asians due to voter suppression imposed by Blacks. Asians get arrested at higher rates than blacks because Blackistan’s law enforcement officers were trained to view Asians with suspicion because of the belief that they are untrustworthy etc. That is racism. This scenario does not exist in the US or the UK right now.
I firmly believe that whites think racism is just using slurs and generalising. It is more than that. I agree that minorities can be bigots, but we just don’t have the power to disadvantage any group with our bigotry in the fields mentioned above. We can physically and mentally harm each other, but what we don’t have the power to do anything on the same level as systemic racism has done against blacks, native americans, asians, and latinos. I honestly believe stupid white people began to muddy the waters to take the burden of ending white supremacy off their back because they are too afraid to confront their own racist family and friends, or worse their own racist thoughts. White people have been conditioned to ALWAYS believe that they are the white knights/heroes in every scenario. White is right after all. They also were conditioned to believe that the word racism is bad. They don’t mind behaving like a racist but being called one is terrible to them. If they confront their own racism or their beloved families racist actions/open thoughts it changes things. It is an identity crisis of epic proportions; them realizing that they are the “bad person” or wrong is earth shattering and puts them in a very uncomfortable position. It never occurs to them that they can change to be a better person. Instead of pushing through and trying to change for the better they get defensive and start the “what about” or “we are all racists”, “all lives matter”. Or they shut down and only listen to people who confirm the good things about white people. In other words, it confirms the positive feelings they have about themselves because they identify as white. I think one of the main reasons why racism still exists is due to ego, self-interest, and delusion.
People tend to conflate racism and prejudice. Anyone can be prejudiced, i.e. hold negative biases against people due to race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, sexual identity, etc. Racism is a self perpetuating system of oppression. So one needs to be in a position of authority to enforce the prejudice. That tends to be white people in western society.
Pls ignore this — topic is addressed later on. If you see this, then please realize I don’t know how to delete a rash comment.,
I don’t know how to dBritAfrica — I have nehe other definitions? What dictionary are you using? Then is there another word (approved, of course) for black antipathy to white people?
Yes, she was. By one of the definitions of racism, which is defined as thinking that the traits and qualities of one race is superior to others, that is racist.
I’m sure people will immediately cry out NO IT IZNT! because it is personal racism rather than institutional racism, which some quarters of the Internet like to pretend is the ONLY definition.
So me getting the sh&t beat out of myself everyday at school because of the color of my skin (I’m white) isn’t racist? Yes, I was told that was the reason why I was punched, kicked and spit on.
But the way you were treated is not defined as racism. Racism is rooted in systematic oppression, something white people in the US have not experienced. What you experienced (and I agree it was horrible) would be defined as discrimination, not racism.
Thanks for the explanation Juls. At the time it only felt like hate, hatred from people who didn’t even know me, didn’t even know my name, they just saw someone that they knew they had to hate. All these many years later it still hurts.
Yes Harla, arbitrary hatred because of the color of your skin. It is prejudice and it is discrimination. Perhaps they hated you because, outside of your school and your neighborhood, you would have privileges afforded to white people that they would not have, due to systematic racism. I hope that I explained that correctly. For the record, I am white. My white husband once worked in a job where he was the only white guy, surrounded mostly by black males. He was treated horribly, as you were. Because he was white. He called me one night, crying because the discrimination and abuse was so bad. So yes, it was painful for him. But he worked hard and moved up in the company, whereas his black colleagues were far less likely to have those opportunities because of systematic oppression (perhaps why they took their frustrations out on him). He later trained one of the men that treated him so badly, and the man admitted what he had done and apologized, and was shocked that my husband treated him well and trained him well despite the history between them. I think it hurt so badly because my husband is not prejudiced and didn’t understand why he was hated for no reason other than being white. It was an eye opening experience for him. And also how he learned about racism versus discrimination. Sorry for the long reply. I hope you can put the hurt behind you and help us all come together by using you experience to further the conversation.
I don’t agree that racism is “genetic”. My “white” son chose a tiny dark skinned baby doll to care for, right out of the gate at age 5- fully his choice from a store. He was born color blind- racism is LEARNED. PERIOD.
I used to believe that there’s no such thing as reverse racism, but kinda made me think twice when I watched this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nbnGUUdQTU
I’m brown, by the way.
Thanks for posting the video; it was helpful to see how the term racism is used and defined.
IMHO reverse racism does not exist because it’s just racism, period. Anyone can be racist against anyone else, at the end of the day.
That said, POC have faced so much institutionalized / legalized / subtle / overt / etc racism over the course of centuries that it cannot be compared with anything else. Sure, you could give examples of white person X being treated badly by person of color Y because X is white, but that’s miles away from what’s gone on and is still sadly going on now. Like Rachel said, when white people start being discriminated against, start having their rights taken away, start losing jobs on a large scale (not just isolated incidents) maybe then those claims would make more sense. As it stands now, it just sounds slightly silly to me.
Anyway, that’s just my 2 cents as an Arab woman who is also as pale as milk, heh.
I disagree. My grandfather was so racist against white people that as a kid, my mother didn’t let him see us unless he promised not to speak that way in our house. He hasn’t spoken to my mom since she started dating my white step father 15 years ago because he was so ashamed of his daughter being with a ‘cr@cker. ‘ Racism goes both ways, but if people don’t want to see the truth, nothing will get better. Don’t blame one race for this attitude
That’s not racism. That’s one dude being an a-hole. And that’s prejudice.
Btw, part of racism’s power is that it strips people of common knowledge that could potentially be used to empower or foster understanding. It’s 2017 and POC as well as white people don’t even know the difference between racism and prejudice. That’s because institutionally it isn’t taught in grade school. And that’s very much on purpose. That is racism.
And shame in every single person using this post to attempt to shame POC or whine about white oppression. White oppression is anecdotal, not institutional.
Radley, whitesplaining much? “Quiet, black person! Your definitions are wrong and your anecdote is wrong and let me explain to you what you SHOULD think!”
Also, there is more than one definition of racism in existence, and one of those…. is prejudice. Yet interestingly very few people know the difference between institutional and personal racism. That’s very much on purpose. That is racism.
And I hate to break it to you, but people with anecdotal oppression aren’t likely to care about others institutional oppression if their own experiences are ignored or swept away. Frankly put, nobody ultimately cares about others’ travails unless they have a reason to (family/friends being in the group, virtue signaling, etc).
I literally can’t. This is the reason racism isn’t going away any time soon. Guess what…I’m brown so I guess that gives me the right to say sh*tty things because I’ve been oppressed
Radley, thank you. My PR grandfather thought every other culture was inferior. I thought of it as racism within our family. I am a POC, but grew up w a white family, not legally adopted, just “taken in”. I come off as a tan white, so many white people tan now, so I’m a blended POC, most people would not guess the barrio upbringing. I grapple w race issues, but went to college to get “woke” on xenophobia now normalized within America. Thanks for the explanation, it really supplements my education. Truly.
Exactly. Also what many young people fail to understand is that their older relatives may be wary of whites or hold certain viewpoints about whites due to how things were when they were younger. Talk to a an elderly black person who grew up pre civil rights movement and they have good reason to feel the way they feel.
Also preferring to date within your own race / ethnicity is not racism or bigotry. There is nothing wrong with preferring your own is to speak. In fact dating has little to do with racism and bigotry; plenty of bigots date outside of their race.
There are two forms of racism:
1. systemic and institutional racism, and
2. the basic kind:
– prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior.
– the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
It is ridiculous to pretend that both kinds are not real. Anyone can be racist. Some argue that everyone is racist on some level – even if it is just on the unconscious bias level.
I’ve lived in a bunch of different countries on different continents and I am here to tell you that racism exists everywhere in all sorts of different forms and it is not just perpetrated by white people.
Obviously racism that is backed by a whole system of racism and by a majority race is the worst kind and the most insidious; but let’s not ignore that there are other kinds too.
I agree with Sixer above & my education taught me that the definition of #2 in SFK’s post is the definition of prejudice, not racism. #2 is about interpersonal connections, emotions & beliefs while #1 is about how these things then are used to affect people in their public lives (ie- housing, jobs, laws). They are two different things. #1 is about the system & the public sphere while #2 is about the private sphere. They both suck for people & both exist but they are two different beasts that feed off each other.
Thank you for saying EXACTLY what I wanted to. Especially the part about other countries and the racism there.
I literally copy pasted two definitions of “racism”. This comes under “prejudice” but it is still racism. How can people not understand that one word / term has multiple meanings. What a lot of you are describing here as the “only” definition of racism is systemic or institutional racism. That does not mitigate other forms of racism.
This is basically what I was trying to get at above.
Half these arguments are unnecessary because one side is using one sense of the word and the other side is using the other.
Instead of going round and round and round in circles, we all need to stop kicking each other half to death and start drawing out the common ground, which, underneath all the sound and fury and nitpicking, actually does exist.
No SFK, with all respect, you’re trying to lump two different things into one category. Racism, by definition, has systemic ramifications. Prejudice and discrimination do not.
Why is it so important to you that “prejudice” and “racism” bear he same exact meaning? They’re two different things. Similar and related, sure — but not the same exact thing.
Odette: Academic background here. The “prejudice+power=racism” definition was invented in the 1970’s by Patricia Bidol as a way to try to describe what was happening when institutions had discriminatory policies. It’s NOT universally accepted as the only definition. It was just invented as a way to give a name to this–which is why it’s called a stipulative definition. Those don’t replace every other definition, they just give you new vocabulary to talk about a problem.
There are also a ton of problems with assuming this as the only way to describe racism. You’re automatically telling people they are helpless and powerless, and ignoring the places in their lives where they do have power. Which is why institutional racism is the best description for it–it’s about institutions. Racism on a personal level is just that–about the person and his/her actions.
Academic or not. Making the distinction between racism and prejudice is helpful. Bottom line.
As for your second paragraph — not really sure what you’re trying to say. Basically, you’re just saying that you like to use “institutionalized racism”. Fine. I think the distinction between racism and prejudice is more effective.
As for the word “prejudice” or “racism” automatically informing people they are “helpless and powerless”…well, visible minorities — on a macro scale — are largely systemically powerless on account of racism. That’s why we’re using our personal power to fight against it.
I completely agree, SKF. I appreciate how forward-thinking and enlightened this commentariat is, for the most part, but sometimes…
ETA: No, Odette. That is not so clear. What you are describing as racism is institutionalized racism. It is not the only accepted definition of racism.
Odette, deal with it: there is more than one definition of racism, and clinging desperately to just one definition in defiance of all other definitions does not make you more “woke.”
Odette: SFK has laid out the two tiers of racism really well. Yes, on a macro level the definition “institutional racism” and the definition of “prejudice + power” is really helpful. But on the individual level it’s super problematic. Why pretend that the actions of institutions represent all people of one race no matter how much/little money or influence they have? Why don’t their individual actions matters?
Otherwise you get situations like poor Heather Meyer, who was killed protesting neo-Nazis but under your one definition is still a racist. Her actions don’t matter here….and does that really pass the gut test? Most people say no, and that’s why two tiers of definition matter. Because our individual actions matter.
I don’t disagree about the problems, it’s just as is I just think this one definition misses the human factor and so is super unhelpful. If calling someone prejudiced had the same negative power as calling them a racist does, I guess I could get on board with what you’re saying with racism vs. prejudiced. It’s awkward and unwieldy to use two definitions for people from different races, but sure.
Nope. I refuse to concede on this point. For me, it’s about message. And when we start calling oppressed minorities “racists” it derails the conversation. Racist / Racism is reserved for people(s) with institutional power. Otherwise, every conversation ends up with someone, who is trying to uphold the racists status quo, spewing anecdotal tales about that “super racist” black person they know, trying to prove the non-point that since one person of color that they “know” is prejudice, then the whole conversation is moot.
Odette: Look, if someone wants to be bring up “super racist” behavior you concede it sure sounds “super racist” but make it clear you want to talk about the big picture. I guess I wonder, how do you keep a conversation on track when everyone knows that the definitions/logic is bad?
This is why the logic stinks: do you lay the blame for this mess on powerless white people, of which there are many? The homeless, the mentally ill, the poor? They are also victims of this system, if in marginally less shitty ways. They’re certainly not the architects of the system, or in any way able to change it. So why do they get the same portion of blame as Trump, the Koch brothers, Rupert Murdoch, or fill-in-the-names of the people who keep the system going? I don’t like being held responsible for someone else’s mess, why should they?
This is not a linguistic battle that’s worth fighting (not least because it’s faulty and illogical). And also because it’s definitely not going to change hearts and minds. People can go ahead and say that they don’t care about changing minds, but being unified is the only way change will happen. It’s that simple.
We (US citizens) literally have a white supremacist in the highest office of the land (our president) and yet we’re still here debating whether non-white people can “equally” discriminate against white people. No, we can’t! We are in a system that benefits white people and keeps non-white down and always has; from the court systems, to the police, to our politicians, to the economy, to education, denial of land rights, slavery, Native American genocide: EVERY FACET OF AMERICAN LIFE WAS BUILT TO FAVOR WHITE PEOPLE AND MALIGN NON-WHITES. While some non-white people may hate whites you will never face an all black/brown jury with a black/brown judge. You will never live in a country with brown/black politicians that HATE you. You will never live in a country that was designed to take your dignity. You will never live in society that deems your whiteness less human. Our prisons are disproportionately full of black, Latino and Native American people and Arpaio was just excused for his human abuse against Latinos by our racist president and white people here are still trying to act like brown/black people not liking them is the same thing. It’s not.
Yes!
If you think you live in a country designed to take your dignity, you can leave at any time. I’m not white, so don’t even try and say I don’t have any idea. Also, prisons are disproportionately filled with blacks? Weird because there were over 20 shooting deaths in my city just last month between black men. Soooooo…..the only time their lives have meaning is if they were killed by a white person. Oh ok. Thanks for explaining.
@ Amanda:
1) People can’t just pick up and move to another country whenever they want. Immigration laws apply. Plus, not everyone has the money to immigrate. Besides, why should people leave the country in which they were born, instead of staying put and fighting for equality?
2) Yes, prisons are disproportionately filled with blacks. This is not a matter of opinion; it’s a fact. Just because black-on-black crime exists doesn’t mean that systemic racism in the law enforcement community doesn’t exist.
@Amanda, you mentioned that you were brown, are you latina or Southeast Indian? Both ehnic groups have their own issues with racism, colorism, and the upholding of white supremacy.
@ Amanda, I’m Native American, I’m not going anywhere. This is my land, my continent, my HEMISPHERE. You sound like a white person gaslighting and pretending to be a POC to win an argument. I don’t have to go anywhere; the racists and all their complacent friends (that includes YOU) can leave though, they can go back to Europe. Institutional racism is real with real data and historical records to back it up despite what you, an anonymous allegedly brown (you’re a white woman, I’d bet money on it), says.
Amanda
This is why Black Lives Matter
When a black person kills a black person (on any other person) they go straight to jail.
When a black person is killed by a white person they are very likely to get off IF they are even tried.
The consensus is black lives have no value.
@Aiobhan Targaryen Standing ovation! HAND CLAPS!
REVERSE racism is not a thing. It is just “Racism”. By definition.
Thank you.
Oh yes it does…when I offered a young woman neighbour help with her puppy (me being one who can) she said I was criticizing her because of her race (Persian). I was totally taken aback, and attempted to protest. Her puppy was shrieking (she had him tied to a balcony railing) with fear and frustration and she was yelling at him. I knew the situation could be resolved so much more easily. With my two dogs on a sit, stay I walked to beside her balcony and said “may I offer you a suggestion to help calm the puppy” and she just started in on me. She finished her tirade by saying she was moving in a couple of days, and she’d be glad to get out of our neighbourhood. She said I was a racist. I explained I’d help any dog, of any breed, anywhere, anytime. Couldnp[t help myself, even said “I’d also help any bitch” but it was more under my breath type muttering…….by then I admit I was walking away. Even thinking about it now, 4 years or so later, I feel shook up. I was hurt, more than offended, that her go-to, automatic response was “you’re racist”. I’m against breed specific legislation in ALL forms. Period.
That’s sad. I understand how it shook you. To offer help in good faith and be verbally attacked and called something you’re not really stings. She must have had some very bad experiences with actual racists and projected her anxiety, hurt and anger on you.
Horse Marine, when you torment a dog like that, it’s more likely that you’re just a rotten excuse for a human being who tries to use real problems to silence others rather than a poor woobie who has been traumatized in the past.
Agreed.
But the logic of many people who make the same point is that they tend to point the blame at white people as individuals and not the society that has resulted from racist institutions. That’s like saying it’s the fault of ALL white people that Donald Trump is president. He probably wouldn’t be president if it weren’t for a lot of white people’s xenophobia and racism, but that doesn’t that everyone voted for him or everyone endorses racism. I think there are a lot of white people who are for equality but changing government and world wide institutions usually needs to come from top down. It’s very hard for individual people to dismantle those path dependent institutions. Where would you even start? It really needs to be done through the programs and initiatives that Obama was endorsing. Things like universal health care, affirmative action, all those policies are the key to creating a level playing field.
This is why we need to be very suspicious of corporations (and celebs) using social justice. L’Oreal wanted literally a token woman but the moment she spoke up about the very thing they claimed to be interested in she was fired.
Its ok to generalize about white people. Nothing bad happens because of that.
It is never ever ok to generalize. It hurts people who are trying to make this sick planet a bit better. If she hates me cos im white, why would i support her? Respect goes both ways.
Personally, I didn’t get “she hates me because I’m white” out of what she said here.
I think that generalizing about the majority (i.e. white people) is pretty much required at this point. And it’s required because many of us like to negate and dismiss by invoking the dreaded “#notallwhitepeople” while simultaneously enjoying our privilege.
@ Kitten
I don’t disagree about the privileged part but I don’t think it is ever that simple. I think using general terms about a group of people/race is dangerous because of how it can be taken.
White people bought Black people in the gold coast, but then Black people sold Black people in the gold coast.
Men enjoy massive privileges and some are toxic yes, but then men fought alongside women in the suffragette movement for women to have the vote. Some women voted against women getting the vote.
My point is……we all played a part in things getting this f*cked up. Yes, undeniably, some of us more prominently than others, but we are all culpable.
It doesn’t mean privilege should not be acknowledged but that is not what Munroe is doing here. She is attempting to divide and conquer ala Trump style to garner dubious fame, and that is what I find intolerable.
If we won’t accept this ploy from Trump and the crazy Brexiteers, we should not accept it from Munroe.
Ok fair enough, BritAfrica, and your points are well-made.
I guess I just feel that as a white person who is fighting racism the only way that I know how to, I have a responsibility to indiscriminately support black women who are outspoken about racism, even if it’s (rightfully) couched in anger and frustration towards white people.
As I always say, “woke” is a journey not a destination so I’m still learning how to fight against feeling defensive or hurt when I hear statements that are rooted in truth, but perhaps delivered in a way that may seem combative or divisive.
Appreciate everything you said in your reply, though.
Kitten said the words out of my heart. “As I always say, “woke” is a journey not a destination so I’m still learning how to fight against feeling defensive or hurt when I hear statements that are rooted in truth, but perhaps delivered in a way that may seem combative or divisive.”
I agree that we all played a part. My part is pretty stormy for me right now. As a white woman who is American and grew up in a white city where we like to pretend that we were on the road to equality, black & brown just want to live on the other side of town and everything is just dandy- this year has been like a anvil dropped on my head. And a lot of my counterparts are still signing kombaya, getting pissed when black people talk about discrimination & saying it’s fine so…..I am trying to find my place & may choose to give people a pass on their frustrations. I am so very pissed so if I was a transgendered black woman…..I give them passes right now to not say things in the perfect, most delicate way but I understand what her message was & I back it up.
I agree that divisive language doesn’t help & I see where she could have been more thoughtful when saying “All white people”. Maybe “white people as a group”? I don’t know the answers but I am starting to see the problems.
Whites can’t win. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. All you need as proof is the treatment of Bernie Sanders or other whites by BLM.
@britafrica
You know what, I’m sick of this ‘on many sides, ‘ B.S. In the 17th and 18th centuries the whole of Europe was competing with each other to create overseas empires (gold, silver, timber, coffee, tobacco, cotton, sugar, cocoa, rice fields, construction, ship building, domestic servants and much more)- it was the fuel that drove their economic engines. Yes after the Portugese, British, French, Spanish and Dutch raided the coasts of people, killed, abused and made outposts, they then recruited African slave traders.
Or do you think hundreds of ships armed with cannons, weapons and armies of men knocked on a few coastal villages doors,, and politely asked ‘sorry to bother you, we have a little favor to ask pretty please with a cherry on top? ‘
Stop with the false equivalency.
No, the Africans didnt really have a choice, even barring those that were out to not get killed and profit from rounding others up…but we don’t hold them responsible for the almost 4 centuries of genocidal slavery in The New World, just as we don’t hold anti-racism protesters in Charlottesville or Jewish prison guards at Auschwitz responsible.
Are you kidding? You must be trolling. I want to believe that you are trolling.
I see a ton of trolling going on through these comments. Don’t let them bother you. I actually laughed at a few of them for being so transparent. They aren’t even good at it.
It is NEVER okay to generalize about any type of people based on race, ethnicity, gender, age, orientation or religion in a work situation. There are laws on this. And when your job is to be the name/face/voice of your employer than your “workplace” extends to any forum in which your words are going to reflect back on your employer.
She signed a contract that very likely spelled out the behaviors that could result in discipline. It would appear L’Oreal interpreted her statement as a violation of the terms of that contract.
But she wasn’t generalizing & she wasn’t saying all white people do x, y z. This post missed her point & I’m disappointed in it. Missed it. The headline itself sucks & creates a bias.
Her point was that all white people benefit from a racist system & few acknowledge that. As a group, we benefit from racism but then deny it & therefore are racist ourselves. She wasn’t saying each individual white person was racist or did racist acts, she was talking about the system that each of us lives in & benefits (or not) from. Outside of your own individual person, outside your house, your town, your state- you are a part of a larger system that benefits white people as a whole and each of us individually and this system is made on the backs of slave labor. She wasn’t saying all white people do racist acts, she was saying all white people benefit from racial violence.
Our hurt feeling over this shows how self centered we really are (as a group, not individually…just like her comment was meant to be taken too).
The travesty of a white person being accused of racism is not the white person accused of racism, it’s racism.
What about countries that are perdominatly white that were not built by slaves? I think we talk about racism we do so in the context of North America and England but the world is biggerbthan that. How have the Swiss benefited from racial violence? How have Ukranians benefited?
Name 5 countries that are mostly white that do not have a history of racism and/or colonialism. North America and England??? That’s the tip if the damn iceberg. Come on. Not to be rude but when in doubt, wikipedia that sh*t.
As for her comments, she meant it the first time and she’s not wrong. But if you’re a spokesmodel for a company/brand like L’Oreal? You sadly can’t get away with that, that’s not their brand.
@littlemissnaughty Switzerland, Finland, Norway (unless we are going so far in history we are including Vikings), Ukraine, Poland.
UmYeah- global marketplace. Are their goods made in China or the like? Any sweatshop products come to the countries to be sold at a decreased value due to slave labor? Yes, white supremacy is a global crisis.
My grandfather also had the choice to come straight from Norway to America, hop off the boat & then benefit from American racism so I ponder that point as well. So many places for white people to go & lord over others! That is a benefit methinks. My grandpa wasn’t on the top rung on the food chain in America but he sure as hell wasn’t the last rung & he benefited from that. He could change his name, hide his accent & fair better then others.
I am lost in all comments but here: there are countries in Europe who were simply slaves to others. Apart from England France Netherlands Spain and Portugal, the others did not have any inpact on what happened. Hence the whole idea of racism makes my skin crawl. My ancestors were slaves. White and slaves.
@MC2 so now white colanlism is being blamed for Chinesse sweatshops, China a ridiculously wealthy country with that violates human rights of its people and allows for those companys to set up business. I think the Chinesse goverment may have some accountability there. And as usual everything comes back to America, the world is a big place beyond the US.
I’m in the same boat as Milla – the word slave literally comes from the word Slav because of what Slavs were to other nations centuries ago. No colonial power here, no foreign servants or slaves, nothing. Only to us foreign opressors well into the 20th century.
MC2 makes a good point with the global marketplace, but that would make black people in the US just as racist as white people from countries like mine – because we all – as societies, not necessarily individuals – take advantage of the global marketplace.
@umyeah
Actually, Finland has a pretty problematic history with Sami people and arguably, non-Sami and white Finlanders have benefited from institutional racism and oppression of the Sami people.
I only know that because my dad’s family is originally from Finland as well as (allegedly) being part Sami, but if institutional oppression has occurred in Finland, I think it’s likely that it has occurred in other places that people don’t know about.
Where are the moderators for the “its ok to generalize white people. Nothing bad happens because of that”. Its freaking 2017, generalizing any group of people is wrong.
It’s pretty upsetting that by 2017, the 21st century, this is still going on, but it’s so sad that it ever even started
I feel like you’re purposefully being obtuse. We’re living in fraught times. An outright racist is the president of the united states. Racism is a complicated subject, and it does involve discussions about the inherent privilege of white skin, by which all white people benefit. These are not easy conversations, and nit-picking over verbiage only serves one purpose: derailing the conversation. And derailing the conversation is a way of protecting privilege. (If we don’t have the conversation, then nothing changes.)
It’s time to grow some tougher skin. We need to have a national conversation and national ACTION. We need to start big picture and make some generalizations about white people benefiting from systemic racism. Non-white people have had to deal with generalizations — both conscious and unconscious; blatant and of the microaggression variety — their whole lives; white people who truly care about doing the hard work it’ll take to turn things around need to start steeling themselves for the occasional generalization. That’s just the way it is.
Getting upset over generalizations about white people, at this point in our nation’s history, is like trying to equate water torture and paper cuts.
@Odette first i would like to point out that I am not American and dont live in America (or England). From what i see om the news the US has some unreal issues right now but the rest of the world is not accountable for those issues. Now, as for generalizing we need to say its not okay to generalize any group or how does a society grow? As a society how does it benefit us to say one group is allowed to act one way while everyone else is prohibited. Isnt that the attitude by and large that people are tryong to change?
@UmYeah
1) Whether you live outside of the US or England is of no concern to me. This conversation is about a model who works in the UK and US. So, throwing the “I don’t live in America” card is, again, deflection / derailment.
2) As for : “As a society how does it benefit us to say one group is allowed to act one way while everyone else is prohibited.” You’re making a straw man’s argument. The situation is a lot more nuanced, and trying to distill everything into the most basic, black-and-white terms (which is what you are doing) is counterproductive. But beyond that, when you do it, you’re basically saying: “My hurt feelings are on par with the problems created by centuries-long oppression and discrimination.”
Odette
1) if she was only referring to Ameticans and English them she should have said so, this is not deflection but actually explaining that many white people live outside the Us and the Uk.
2) thank you for telling me who i am and how feel, how would not have known if you didn tell me. But if you think generalizing is okay have at it but i wont be joining you bc i believe in equality
Um Yeah.
1) No, she doesn’t have to say she is speaking about her culture. It’s assumed. What, is every person, before they start talking about a social issue, supposed to bust out some caveat about “I’m only talking about my country”? Silly.
2) Huh? We were having a conversation about racism and our different positions, and I commented on your argument. You ARE equating hurt feelings to actual oppression. This is not an opinion; social scientists have studied this phenomenon; it has nothing to do with me “telling you how you feel.”
Odette assumptions are the greatest of evils. Sometimes you need to be clear and consice with your language especially when talking about such issues. She didnt need a caveat but she also didnt need to say All White People, thats my point here.
I dont have any hurt feelings about this so im not equating it to anything. What i do think is generalizing has never been positive in the past so why do we think it would positive in the present or future?
I’m not going to even engage on the stupid point that she had to clarify which, exact, countries she was talking about. It’s dumb — and I think even you know it’s petty to try to hang something on that.
You’re focusing on ONE little phrase — “all white people” — to the deflection of everything else she said! Instead of thinking: “She’s frustrated; racism probably does affect her more than myself; she clarified what she meant; no biggie” you’re railing on this three-word linguistic blunder. You’re hung up on that one point, and completely disregarding the actual substance of her comment. That IS equating your feelings to actual oppression.
We could go back and forth all day. The bottom line is that you’re reaction to this event is problematic — and reactions like yours are part of the glue that keeps racism in place. So, if you’re really for equality, then you should re-think your reaction.
Im sorry that you agree with the op that its “alright to generalize about white people” bc that is a really short sighted view. Racism is a really complicated subject and if you are going to speak on it you need to be clear and concise as many celebrities have found out in the past few months. What makes it okay to call out Jessica Chastain and not this women? You can accuse me of anything you want and call my reaction “problamtic” but the reality is genaralizations are wrong and calling someone out on that is not wrong.
Yes, Um Yeah — it is a nuanced and complicated subject. That is why getting hung up on the “all white people” phrase is wrong. Anybody who really wants to eradicate racism understands why it’s not helpful to do what you’re doing.
People DID call out Munroe. And she clarified. Done. Just like Jessica Chastain clarified her stupid remarks, and I was OK with her after her realization / apology / clarification.
Actually, it’s not okay to generalize anyone on the basis of skin color/race. I have 2 biracial daughters (black & white) and the older one has just started school again. This year, she has been tormented by a group of black girls who tell her that, b/c she is very light, she’s “half devil,” and that her white side doesn’t love her, b/c all whites hate blacks. This has been both painful and very harmful to her—she’s begun to try and avoid school, and worries I don’t love her….This is “okay?” No: Negative generalization is NEVER a good or just thing, all it does is narrow, harm, and divide our world and people.
*hugs* im so sorry your daughter is dealing with that, i really hope it gets bettet soon
Ksenia, that’s horrible. Kids can be horrible, for a thousand reasons and also for just one: to be mean because it makes them feel better about themselves. I homeschool and it’s hard but it’s becoming very mainstream across the country, in every demographic. If you are able to consider it, it’s a great option.
I, as a white person , respectfully disagree that lumping is all together is okay. We are not a monolith anymore than other ethnicities.
I understand your reasoning and many, including other white people, may agree (see, not a monolith). I suspect that many, or enough to effect cosmetic sales don’t agree. While you may find this a reprehensible business decision to fire her, I find it to be societal awareness.
Perhaps, Loreal felt their diversity campaign would have been blighted by bigotry by continuing to employ her. That said, they, nor I, have to support her platform. I do support, unequivocally, her right to make this her platform. n fact, losing her job on account of her strong feelings may lead to more activism for her and more attention.
I wish the whole thing had happened differently.
Black transgender women suffer a higher than average level of discrimination. Not only are they marginalized but they are victims of violence and dismissed by the justice system.
Hopefully, she can still be a voice. If you read the statistics it is shocking and shameful.
No, it is NOT ok to generalize – regardless what ethnicity you are referring to. She made a stupid, hateful comment and L’oreal wanted no association with her. Their prerogative, and rightfully so. If I made comments like that on FB, best believe I’d be fired, too.
No, it is not okay to generalize against white people. Hopefully you were being sarcastic.
Queen dropped a pot stirrer…and we all danced like puppets!!! 🙂
So someone declares that all white people are racist, a morally repellent stance that requires conscious involvement, and somehow L’Oreal is the bad guy here. Very enlightened.
Yes.
If we Black people don’t want this kind of crap, then we shouldn’t dish it out. I find her “if you are not with us then you are against us” attitude stupid, childish and ridiculous.
Grow up Munroe, this world is not kind to morons! Please do not speak for me and I won’t speak for you.
+100 BritAfrica. Agree with everything you said.
Yes!!
Shouting at white people about how racist they are is not going to end racism. Also, racism is not the same throughout western culture. White people are native to Europe, which creates a different kind of structural racism than in the US, where white supremacy has been used to justify countless crimes and sins including genocide, slavery, and extreme oppression.
This post & the entire thread is so sad- don’t thrown her out. She was discussing the system & reacting to white people denying racial privilege. We do deny racial privilege (as a whole) & I would guess that it is infuriating so words don’t come out perfectly all the time but I get her point and I co-sign it.
I’m with you, MC2.
I must add that I’m very surprised by the white fragility on this thread–usually we’re better about that around here.
It’s one thing to say that she might not be the best choice for a spokesperson, but it’s another thing to completely denounce what she said because she didn’t word it in a way that made you feel good inside.
Kinda like Matt Damon and his stupid commemts? He meant well but used the wrong words and everyone on this site wanted to “cancel” him.
@ MC2
I understand where you are coming from and I do not disagree. But I do question Munroe’s motives here.
What were her words designed to achieve? Meaningful debate? That’s my question.
Please do read my response to Kitten in the post/thread above this one.
@UmYeah-The difference is that Matt Damon is still gainfully employed whereas Munroe Bergdorf lost her job.
Yay white male privilege.
Yep. I read her comment and thought “Damn, that’s harsh. …. But not wrong.” She wasn’t particularly nice about it and I have no issue with that because racism is not nice. And the sh*t she must’ve experienced in her life… yeah, I can’t get mad. But as I said above, she was never going to keep that L’Oreal job the second she posted that comment. That’s a multi-billion-dollar corporation and huge brand. Reminding white people that they have a responsibility? How very not L’Oreal.
@kitten and Matt didnt say anything close to what shebsaid
BritAfrica- I read above & commented 🙂 I appreciate this convo.
My take was that her words were a reaction to something & were coming from a place of hurt. Originally it was a fb post, not an article that she submitted or even an interview so I assumed that she was reacting & I took her words that way. Then she got dragged for it. But I don’t think she should back down or apologize for it either. It reminds me that when I am angry, to write my facebook posts & then re-read, edit & hit post in an hour.
Damn I thought CB was woke but the white fragility today was a lot more than I’ve ever seen on here.
This is why so many of us don’t trust white allies. You don’t get a cookie for not being racist. My goodness.
Lesson learned. I forgot for a second how deadly white complacency is.
@ Umm Yeah.
Matt Damon’s comments helped support the racist status quo, wherein white people benefit. And his language is the type of linguistic super glue that keeps systemic racism in place. Plus, when he tried to clarify what he meant, it was clear he didn’t understand why his statements were problematic.
Munroe Bergdorf’s comments addressed the pervasiveness of white privilege. Did she word it poorly? Yes. But she went on to clarify what she meant, and her explanation was spot on, accurate. Just like I forgave Jessica Chastain for stepping in it, I’m not going to hold this poor choice of wording against Munroe. Her clarification made sense.
Trying to equate Damon and Bergdorf in this sense, in a way, is giving equal moral authority to racism and fighting against racism.
@Kitten I have to say, it’s reading this kind of comments that make poc doubting the well meaning of white people in social justice.
Maybe but I would also add:
It’s reading comments like Munroe’s that make many white people say – why should I bother and why should I continue to care about social justice?
It’s not only the loud negative tossers that we should care about. We should also acknowledge those who work quietly, silently to even the playing field – without even knowing that they are doing it and with no one ever acknowledging their efforts because they are just doing the right, correct thing.
It’s reading comments like Munroe’s that make many white people say – why should I bother and why should I continue to care about social justice?
HMM.. I don’t know is it because it is the right thing to do? Because it is the decent humane thing to do? If you believe in equality then you should not need someone to pat you on the back and tell you that you are a good white person. Nothing is going to change if we coodle whites. Excuses like this are pathetic and quite frankly telling of how bad white supremacy is if you genuinely believe that this is an acceptable response. If they believe that what they are doing is right then they will continue doing it, not for attention because they know they are doing something for the greater good of everyone involved.
“It’s reading comments like Munroe’s that make many white people say – why should I bother and why should I continue to care about social justice.”
Then eff ’em.
Maybe they aren’t meant to be allies if they can’t swallow the harsh reality that POC face in our society. If they are so easily discouraged or so easily offended by the truth then maybe they’re just not ready to get real about racism.
Because it takes facing some uncomfortable and unfriendly facts about white privilege and white supremacy in order to begin the healing process. Denial and deflection, gaslighting and tone-policing aren’t effective in combating racism.
And as I’ve said before, within the BLM movement and the larger discussion of racism, I absolutely believe there is a place for unapologetic radicals just like there’s a place for polite peacekeepers. Not everyone has to have the same voice and the message doesn’t always have to be delivered the same way.
Strong, outspoken, unapologetic, impassioned and yes, JUSTIFIABLY angry people of color deserve to be heard, whether some white folks like what they have to say or not. These activists are the ones that will turn off and isolate the fake allies while inspiring those of us who are in it for the long-haul. Sometimes it takes getting angry and offended in order to circle back towards introspection and ultimately progress.
I’m here for every black voice who doesn’t conform, who doesn’t say things the “nice” way because they are powerful in their message and because that’s what true solidarity is.
Look at the words you use “quietly”, “silently”. Oh my god. How is it possible to talk about racism and to still expect woc to do things politly, quietly? Dont be too mean to white folks poc. It seems to me from your comments that your main goal is to take care of white fragility. The truth is, the ones that are genuine and willing to be good allies will listen to us and make sure to educate themselves.
@ Aiobhan Targaryen
“Nothing is going to change if we coodle whites. Excuses like this are pathetic and quite frankly telling of how bad white supremacy is if you genuinely believe that this is an acceptable response. ”
Whites are not being coodled, they have been challenged for so long now but do you acknowledge that YOU have been helped by those who wanted a better world for ALL and not just whites?
Will you at least, acknowledge that? Or is your thinking also unrealistically pathetic in believing that poc could have done it all on our own?
I must confess that I am finding it weird arguing against poc in this debate but sometimes it needs to be done. Read Munroe’s words again, and then ask yourself why they needed to be worded that way.
Allies are allies. Is everyone as woke as you? Of course not, but that doesn’t mean you discount them. The progressive church needs to stop slamming the door in the face of those who haven’t reached the proper level of enlightenment.
My face is sun burnt today because I spent my lunch hour yesterday standing in front of the White House demanding justice for Dreamers. Do I understand everything about their situation? Have I internalized all of their fear and anxiety? No, but that doesn’t mean I need to sit down and shut up until I am properly woke.
@ Rachel
“Look at the words you use “quietly”, “silently”. Oh my god. How is it possible to talk about racism and to still expect woc to do things politely, quietly?”
I wasn’t talking about woc. Read my post again.
@ BritAfrica
“Whites are not being coodled, they have been challenged for so long now but do you acknowledge that YOU have been helped by those who wanted a better world for ALL and not just whites?”
If that were the case then why are we still in the place that we are today? More black people have helped me to get where I am today than whites ever have. If those black women and men had not forced whites to do the bare minimum then I would not be here. I am not going to pat a white person on the head and give them a cookie for doing something they say they already believe in. Why should I have to do that? They are not children and should not need rewards for being decent.
I have read her words several times and agree with her. POC civil rights is not about white people and the fact that you are trying to make it about them and their feelings or making their feelings equal to POC is very suspect. Also, you are not arguing anything; you are deflecting.
@ Aiobhan Targaryen
“POC civil rights is not about white people and the fact that you are trying to make it about them and their feelings or making their feelings equal to POC is very suspect”
So by calling on Munroe to show the same attitude/behaviour towards Whites as we Blacks want shown towards us is deflecting now…is it?
This is the problem with some of us though isn’t it? We say we want equality but will not acknowledge those who have helped us achieve it (because why should we pat them on the head and give them a cookie?).
We do not want to be divided by dog-whistling but will not call out Blacks who do it (presumably because White pain is not like our Black pain).
The ‘rules’ of engagement in our societies either applies to all of us or none of us. She can either say what she did to ALL of us or none of us. So yeah, I’m deflecting alright!
@ BritAfrica.
Deflecting is part of the problem. So, by deflecting, you’re helping the Donald Trumps of the world. By deflecting — (over nit-picky, minor b.s., for the record) — you’re fertilizing the soil from which racism springs.
@Brit, but why do you need praise and accolades to do the right thing? When people have been hurt, systemically in this country, for decades, some will be upset. I think that’s pretty normal. Truly helping means sometimes weathering that, not just being an ally when it’s easy.
@ BritAfrica
She did have the same attitude and still does but she is also frustrated with white people and people like you who put white people’s feelings above everything and everyone else. A white person’s feelings is not more important or equal to a POC life.
Whites and POC are not on the same wave length when it comes to race and should not be treated as such. POC have been the victims of white supremacy for over 300 years and it is still happening. White people benefit from the system that their forefathers and mothers created-whethre they knew it or not. It is not the victims job to help the perpetrator fix the perpetrator’s behavior. I explained up thread why it is not the same but you are still putting up wrong assumptions. You have not even explained why you think it is wrong. You just state that it is wrong and nothing else. And you are still answering qustions with questions and providing not one detail on how you came to that conclusion. You have spent the entire thread defending whites from “your own people” for what gain I have no clue and quite frankly don’t want to know at this point.
The rules of engagement were created by whites for whites to benefit whites. They were never meant for POC. Instead, why not throw the whole rule book and come up with another rule book together. Whites are no longer setting the agenda for how race relations are going to work.
@ Aiobhan Targaryen
More whataboutery!
@ BritAfrica
Nope. Not even how you use that phrase at all. You are just throwing out catch phrases now because you don’t have a substantive rebuttal. SAD!!!
BritAfrica
– “if you are not with us then you are against us” attitude stupid, childish and ridiculous. –
THIS is exactly the language we as AA/WOC/POC/WOMEN/LGBTQ/MINORITIES need to be speaking! This is 2017, Nazis are LOUD AND PROUD, suffice to say : IF YOU ARE NOT WITH US THEN YOU ARE AGAINST US. Full stop.
This! Do we want to compromise with the worst about human race? Either white supremacists or white people who cawardly refuse to aknowledge their privilege or the pain of poc.
@ Passerby
Then I am more than happy to be against you!
You’re right. We are not all one homogeneous group and we do NOT have to think and believe the same things.
Rachel
I feel like we are in a twilight zone! There is no middle ground with racism. No one foot in, one foot out. No, lets hear what the other side has to say. Sometimes you have to get LOUD and ANGRY. Racism is systematic. We NEED allies. and again- IF YOU ARE NOT WITH US THEN YOU ARE AGAINST US.
BritAfrica
“Then I am more than happy to be against you!”
No kidding.
@ Rachel
“Either white supremacists or white people who cowardly refuse to acknowledge their privilege or the pain of poc”
Really, the pain of poc?? Even the rich ones living in mansions in Asia and Africa (where I was educated for 12 years and yes, lived in one such aforementioned mansions)? We were in pain…..were we??
You are only thinking of one type of poc which is why people like Munroe come up with such drivel and expect it to go unchallenged by a poc.
BritAfrica
“Really, the pain of poc?? Even the rich ones living in mansions in Asia and Africa (where I was educated for 12 years and yes, lived in one such aforementioned mansions)? We were in pain…..were we??”
Just to be clear
White people will always* override POC- Racism
Wealthy POC will always* override poorer POC- Classism
Lighter skinned people will always* override darker skinned people- Colorism
*until this crap is eradicated
Oh! I get it now @BritAfrica. This is all about you. Got it.
Geez. Just because you lived a life of privilege doesn’t mean that systemic racism doesn’t exist in parts of the world — and gotten to a point where klansmen and nazis are openly marching. This is not the time to be chastising other people of color for not being nice enough to white people. (Which is, essentially, what you are doing.) White people with a conscious get that its time for putting aside silly, minor hurts because a model mis-spoke. We’re in def con 10! And anyone who doesn’t understand that, at this point, is a) a racist or b) lugging around a lot of self-hatred or c) too damn self-centered and compassion-less to look outside their own bubble.
Odets, just wanted to say you did a bang up job explaining all this. Thank you.
she did not just say white people. She made sure to include the ‘all’. That’s not going to go well, just for the inclusion one word.
The rest of her message is fine and correct. It’s too bad that she’s being punished like this. I worry it gives credence to the reverse racism people because let’s be straight, her saying white people are racist, is NOT the same as a white model saying all black people are such and such.
why is it not the same thing detritus? it’s a sweeping generalization about a race, regardless of whether it was said about black people or white people or asians. it was a stupid comment that basically says white people are doomed forever to wear the sins of their forefathers around their necks and because they were the descendants of racists and oppressors, that they can never ever escape that and thus, must all be racists today. sounds pretty shittily racist to me.
I won’t be able to do this justice, Bros. look for some of our commenters of colour who, if we are lucky, will take the time to explain. Theyll do a much better job if you truly want to understand, because they can provide nuance and lived experience. My knee jerk reaction was the same as you, not all of us! That response is about me though, and not about the truth this woman feels. To nit pick over all, or most, or many, that’s not truly helpful. It’s a form of tone policing, where you ignore the message because it’s too strident, too poorly worded, too whatever.
It’s a dumb and silly thing to say, when you say ALL, but it’s coming from fear and anger and frustration. I can understand that feel when you look at the world and its stupid broken and everyone is fighting against you it seems. And come now, If you are white (I am), can you say at no point in your life have you been racist? I cannot, although I work to understand and change that, I am far from perfect.
Her message is NOT fine and correct and she absolutely deserved to be fired from a campaign prompting acceptance and celebration of diversity. What a sham to see so many comments defending her. Black, white, brown, yellow,or purple, what she said was inappropriate.
You disagree with this:
“Because most of ya’ll don’t even realise or refuse to acknowledge that your existence, privilege and success as a race is built on the backs, blood and death of people of color… Your entire existence is drenched in racism. From micro-aggression to terrorism, you guys built the blueprint for this s***…. Come see me when you realise that racism isn’t learned, it’s inherited and consciously or unconsciously passed down through privilege. Once white people begin to admit that their race is the most violent and oppressive force of nature on Earth… then we can talk”?
I don’t.
yah detritus, I do disagree with the idea that racism isn’t learned, that it’s inherited. Any isms are learned. they are man made systems. they are not heritable traits. it’s an idiotic statement and I can’t believe you are defending it.
In group and out group bias are genetic, and we learn behaviours socially. So it depends on your breakdown of those terms. I think we are immersed in a racist and sexist society from the day we take our first breath, and we can’t help but absorb some.
Doesn’t mean we can’t change it. Heritable doesn’t mean permanent. And while I might disagree with her exact language on the mechanism, I don’t disagree with her message, on how society is racist and built on suffering of others.
I disagree.
Her wording is not perfect and discriminatory, but that does not changes the fact, that the white population as a whole profits from institutional racism. Even in the countries, whithout a significant POC minority, we still profit from the cheap labor in African and Asian countries.
I think her firing is another proof of how rasist society still is.
If you compare the controversial or outright racist statements and actions by white models and actors and the negilent consequences the had to suffer, compared with being fired for a not perfectly worded comment on Facebook, she is definitly Held too a much higher standard.
People need to think twice before talking about something as serious and dangerous as racism. When she later said that ” no one is born racist, ” that is correct. There’s no right to label ALL white people are racist. She’s never met ALL the white people, so how would she know if we’re all racist?
I guess where it gets tricky is the fact that while we (“we” meaning white peeps) are not all born racist, we are all born white. Meaning, we all partake and benefit* from a systemically racist society whether we want to or not.
In that sense, I agree with her entirely. At first glance it might seem like an unfair generalization, but the fact remains that we enjoy the privilege and the benefits. And with that privilege comes a level of responsibility to acknowledge our inherent advantages and fight for those that do not benefit from the those same advantages due to the fact that they were born black or brown or gay or the wrong gender, etc.
JMO.
* “Benefit” is the wrong term to use, but let’s just say it doesn’t impact us, we remain insulated from the issues that greatly affect POC and other marginalized communities.
I like the way you’ve put this, Kitten. We all grow up in a systematically racist place, by the time we grow up we’ve absorbed some of that, it’s almost impossible not to.
I would just like to know what to do to help, as a white person who does benefit from in-born privilege, truly. I understand now the difference between someone name calling crap at a person and a systematic bias set up to give preference to one group over another, which I mistakenly equated before –
A beautiful little blond girl lives next door with her grandparents, who are teaching white supremacy. She is very well taken care of materially but neglected in other ways – she came over and told a story about visiting our new neighbor gal and being ‘SO SCARED AND UNCOMFORTABLE” (her words) when she went into the new neighbors’ house and there was (in her words) “a bunch of black men” in the living room, so she went home. She was going to play with the little girl but she said the black men made her uncomfortable. My youngest son was in the room when she told the story, and I was so upset – I said, “OH, H, you are ok there. Black people will not hurt you. You know those crackheads across the street? Be afraid of them, they are dangerous. Those people are just our new neighbors, they would never hurt you, they would protect you.” I went on a bit because I was saddened, but she kept interjecting about how they might not be safe – she went home.
We are making decisions about not playing with her anymore because of the white supremacy teachings –
I sure would like to not be a person whose privilege barrels over someone else’s life –
I did not get the whole thing typed in before accidentally hitting the comment post if this did not make sense.
Kitten- you nailed it. I know it’s a difficult pill to swallow but I have heard from people that the simple acknowledgement that we, white people, benefit from a racist system is a good start. This is what she was trying to say with her comment imo. She said come back to me when you realize that by choice or not, conscious or not, you are programmed & benefit from a racist system.
Now to deprogram us…..first things first is to stop gaslighting, stop denying & start accepting. We have a racist society that ALL white people (as a whole) benefit from. I’m not talking about you or your cousin Mike here, but we ALL (as a group) benefit from racism and if we don’t see that then we are not at step one. Recognizing a problem is the first step towards fixing it. Like calling out a racist neighbor & telling that girl that black people are not inherently dangerous and white people are not inherently safe. How crazy making it must be to be grow up black in America or the UK and hear white people talk about how they never benefit from racism & then watch them benefit? Crazy making.
My choice is to speak up whenever I see racism whether it makes me comfortable or not & regardless of what it might cost me. I’ve benefited a ton in ways that I will never know from being a white woman in a racist society so I’ll try to be humble, swallow my stupid pride & listen. How many times did I see or hear racism or notions of it (no n word so maybe I took it wrong?! Sarcasm here…..) and didn’t say anything. That’s white privilege- I can be uncomfortable, not say anything, walk away & it doesn’t affect my life. No more being quiet- ever. The drunk uncle that spews racists shit on holidays will not be able to do that & infect others on my watch.
The problem is that she didn’t say “all white people are PRIVILEGED.” She said they were racist. Racism is not the same thing as privilege; it is a set of attitudes and beliefs that a person/people hold, and she is claiming that white people actively have those just because of what color they were born.
I don’t care who her obnoxiously-expressed, prejudiced, racist (#2 definition) viewpoint came from or why. The simple fact is that she accused a large grouping of people of a morally, ethically wrong stance based on a separate but related issue. I am glad she lost that L’Oreal campaign.
I think it’s so interesting (sad) that almost nobody here debates the contents of her statement. You all zero in on “all white people” and nitpick at it. What about the rest of it? Is this really just about you as the reader of her comment and your feelings? About all of our white feelings?What if we take out “all” white people, would the point she’s making ring true because she gave the white person reading it the option to dismiss it or feel less guilty because “not me”?
What she said is important-but when you use the word ‘all’ you’re going to attract all kinds of criticism for obvious reasons. Stereotyping isn’t productive. What she said is also a read on the corporation that hired her, which was probably unintentional, but they didn’t take it that way hence her being fired. If your warring with words you need to be precise, and if you’re not going to be precise you need to accept the fallout.
However, if Cheryl I-punch-people-in-the-face Cole is still on the payroll, then you know their standards can’t be all that high so this goes to show exactly where L’Oreal stands.
I believe it is a somewhat conservative company but Cheryl Cole is a disgrace and she should be gone. No double standards.
Munroe Bergdorf signed a contract with L’Oreal. Both parties must conform with the contract terms and both have enforcement rights. It sounds like she violated the terms and L’Oreal exercised its rights. If she disagrees, she can try to enforce the contract for damages in a court.
“If she disagrees, she can try to enforce the contract for damages in a court.”
True but she will not win. Her comments WERE racist – period. In any other company/industry she would have been fired as well.
Maybe not fired but yes, disciplined in some way. Again, it depends on the contract. For the average employment situation, it should start with a letter of reprimand, suspension, demotion before termination. But in this situation, termination may be the only option.
This discussion of systemic racism races valid issues but misses the problem here. This involves employment. Employers must comply with laws prohibiting discrimination in the workplace, which can include hostile atmosphere. Employers must provide a discrimination free workplace for all employees and customers and that means they must expect employees to refrain from discriminatory behavior and comments and must take actions when an employee says or does something discriminatory. Generalized statements on race, gender, ethnicity, orientation, age, or religion have no place in these settings and the employers are liable for them. Munroe had a contract, was an employee and made a generalized statement about people based on race. That’s inappropriate and the employer acted to protect itself.
Her apology doubled down on her stupid statement. I think L’Oreal had no choice but to fire her. Embracing diversity doesn’t leave room for allowing your brand ambassador to call your paying customers racist when some of them are not. Didn’t Caitlin Jrnner already prove that being a transgender celeb doesn’t preclude you from saying dumb shit? When white celebs make problematic statements we expect them to deal with the fallout. No difference here.
This all day long.
this chick is a model!? *pulls out magnifying glass*
I’ve seen absolutely gorgeous transgender people, and honestly, she isn’t one of them
Considering what she said is the very definition of racism, yeah, I think they did.
She’s not wrong that when it comes to incidents of racism or calling each other out people seem to do it with considerably less gusto then when defending themselves/their group (even if correct!) from being called racist 💅🏾.
Also again, reverse racism is not a thing. Don’t @ me with any anecdotes of how you were the one white kid in class and how horrible it was for you, or how you went to (insert foreign country here) and it was just terrible!!1! Not paying attention to those lame anecdotes because Reverse. Racism. Is. Not. A. Thing. (Days like this I wish some posters were still here 😢)
On another note she’s beautiful 😍
I agree, Lynnie. While not all of us white people in the states are individually responsible for racism, we are responsible with how we react to the history of it, and the consequences on institutionalized racism stemming from that.
“Also again, reverse racism is not a thing. Don’t @ me with any anecdotes of how you were the one white kid in class and how horrible it was for you, or how you went to (insert foreign country here) and it was just terrible!!1! Not paying attention to those lame anecdotes because Reverse. Racism. Is. Not. A. Thing. (Days like this I wish some posters were still here 😢)” Already there.
So I have to ask what do you call a 11 year old girl getting beat up everyday at school because of the color of her skin?
Prejudice.
HK9. Exactly, it’s prejudice, not racism.
I also wish some old posters were hear to answer some of these questions. I agree with you and ‘reverse racism’ might hurt feelings but it’s not systematic racism, which makes it not the definition of racism. Racism is not about hurting feelings, it’s about steps in place that deny equality on a public level. I don’t think people are educated enough in racism, the language around it, the ideas and the implications. Unfortunately, I meet very few white people who even understand that their hurt feelings is not racism & that white people’s feelings are not in the same category as Jim Crow laws. I thought that I was not educated on it enough to speak up but now I realize that I have more education then most of my white counterparts and I have never felt that I had enough. I find this entire convo full of gas lighting, crazy making & infuriating.
What’s the difference between “anecdotes” ( apparently irrelevant to the discussion) and “lived experience” (apparently relevant)?
I am a white woman. I am also a Jewish woman. My people have been discriminated against and even enslaved for thousands of years. We continue to be persecuted (I see you No-nazis et al). Hey Munroe, am I “All White people” too? Get educated before opening your mouth.
Right? Irish. No dogs, No Irish signs. Death by famine and famine ships. The world is cruel and inhumane to everyone eventually.
exactly. we come together or we compare/compete our trials, which is more productive? she said something stupid. they are a business end of story. you can denounce a system without blanket generalizing an entire people, and isn’t that the point?
Hmmmm…I think I disagree.
I don’t think you can effectively equalize what an American Jewish or American Irish person deals with to what an American black transgender woman deals with on a daily basis.
Generally speaking, Irish Americans and Jewish Americans can pass for white. That’s not to diminish the atrocities that Jewish people have suffered but if I understand you correctly and you are insinuating that the experiences of POC and Jewish people are somehow equal in American society, then I take issue with that.
Some stats:
“During the first two months of this year, transgender women of color were murdered at a rate of almost one per week in the United States. In fact, this minority group may be the most victimized by hate violence in the country, according to a new investigation by the Southern Poverty Law Center. “We’ve had people burned in their homes,” Raffi Freedman-Gurspan, a policy adviser for the National Center on Transgender Equity, told SPLC journalist Don Terry. ‘We’ve had people’s genitals mutilated after they’re dead. It’s absolutely rooted in transphobia and hatred and it’s absolutely a national crisis.’ ”
https://www.ovc.gov/pubs/forge/sexual_numbers.html
In 2015, seven trans women were murdered during the first two months of the year. Quite simply, they were murdered for being who they are. They were specifically targeted because it’s not always easy for a black transgender woman to pass as anything other than what she is.
In the end, it’s still far FAR better to be a Jewish or Irish person in our society than it is to be a POC, particularly a black trans woman.
If you don’t believe me, follow Shaun King or Chanelle Helm, DiDi Delgado, Deray McKesson etc on social media. In addition to the heart-breaking videos, the kind of unfiltered and unapologetic racism that these people deal with on a daily basis simply for being black and pointing out racism would break most of us in a second.
Kitten i agree, being a black transgender women in the US right now would mean they are subjected to hatred daily. That being said she said All white people which negates a large portion of the world that is not part of the US or England. Yes white people in the US get better opportunities because of the social history however how does a Norwegian benefit? Im just saying that world is bigger than just the US.
Yes this is true…so maybe she’s guilty of insularity (like most Americans) but I still don’t think she’s wrong. As I said, I don’t mind the criticism about her maybe not being the best spokesperson, but I do think her point is a valid one.
Kitten, my father (and his whole personal/extended families) were persecuted and killed “just for being/existing” who they were in pre-war/war time Europe. My ancestors were purged in/from Spain and Russia with Progroms and the Inquisition, just for “being”who/what the were. Come again, and tell me it’s not the same thing?
JFC this isn’t war-time Europe, this is Trump America 2017.
Hey I can play this game too, dude. My Lithuanian relatives were murdered by the Teutonic Order and Eastern Slavs! My French relatives were murdered by Germans!!!
But what the f*ck does that have to do with what POC face in modern day American society? What the hell does that have to do with WHITE AMERICANS enslaving and oppressing black people for a century and more?
Were your relatives enslaved and oppressed by black people?
…Or were they murdered by hateful whites?
Yeah that’s what I thought.
Look, nothing you are saying is germane to the topic at hand. We are discussing systemic oppression of BLACK PEOPLE BY WHITES. If you want to discuss white-on-white genocide then you can save that for a different thread, ok? In the meantime please just stop with the gaslighting and the false equivalencies, because they are just that.
Yes- by denying the privileges that are afforded to you on a daily basis because we live in a racist society, you are being “all white people” in her convo. The whites who deny systemic racism, the part they play in it & how they benefit from it are the problem.
Ok how ’bout this for “modern times”: whole countries are looking to wipe Israel off the map just for existing. They have backing (silently and vocally) by MANY groups. That enough hatred for you??
Nazis painted swastikas all over a playground in Brooklyn. One drove a car into a Jewish pre school several years ago. There have been some physical attacks on the rise. I don’t know what to say.
The BDS and the UN. I know you what you are saying. It is scary.
Grrrr. Just because other groups experience prejudice does not mean that the issues of VISIBLE minorities should be ignored! Yes, antisemitism is on the rise. Nobody is disputing that. Yes, synagogues and day schools are targets. This type of PREJUDICE is awful and terrible!
But the issues VISIBLE minorities face are also awful and terrible. Visible minorities have to worry about being shot by cops. Jewish people don’t. Jewish people don’t get paid less, just because they’re Jewish. I could go on with other examples…but this is not about comparing.
Basically, it boils down to a lack of compassion. People getting caught up in outrage about the “all white people” phrase lack the basic compassion to sit back and admit, “Yes, people with darker skin are treated worse than me, in this country.” It’s an inability to humanely rationalize: “Yes, the ‘all white people’ statement stung, but that is nothing in comparison to the stress and b.s. visible minorities must face; and, as a person with white skin, I do benefit from an unbalanced system in this country, and I should be mindful of that.”
Since you do identify as Jewish you should know better than to write this defensive and unhelpful comment. Also, how can you identify as white and Jewish at the same time. You want to identify with the same group as neo-nazis but also want to remind us of the terrible history of Jews all in one statement. How Sway? Which one is it? Are you part of the minority or part of the majority? You cannot be both. If you are going to take on the moniker of being white as part of your identity then you need to own the bad stuff that comes with it-this includes white supremacy. From what I understand of Judaism Jews have always been the group that thave been the outsiders, it is a part of your identity and you wear it proudly. Judaism focuses on social justice and righting wrongs. Why would you want to identify with a group that actively or indirectly oppresses others? Last time I checked that was not the Jewish way.
Actually you can say the same for Irish people. They were not white in Ireland but became white in the US and Canada and slowly forgot what it was like to be in the minority because yall did not have to suffer anymore. You had blacks, latinos, native americans and asians to step on, then you became the oppressor. You cannot recall a tragic and unfair past and use it as a shield to protect you from the criticism of whiteness since you openly identify as white. Either you are a minority or you a part of the majority. You cannot have it both ways.
So, again, given the history of both Jewish and Irish cultures that you want us to remember, why do either group want to identify as white and why are you not on Munroe’s side on this?
“How can you identify as white and Jewish at the same time. You want to identify with the same group as neo-nazis but also want to remind us of the terrible history of Jews all in on statement”. So does this mean you think all white people are Nazis? Bc history would greatly disagree with you.
No if you had read the full paragraph you would have understood that.
But you are assuming all white people are part of white supremacy, what about the Irish people who have never left Ireland? How have they perpetuated white supremacy? How have white people in the Ukraine help oppress others? Maybe people agree with Munroes general point without her generalization of people all over the world. Also when were Irish people not white in Ireland??????
It is not an assumption. I think it is becoming obvious that POC and whites have a different understanding of what white supremacy is. If you are a person of color and only subscribe to the white view then you need to look in the mirror and remember where you are in this fight. It is not on the white side.
White supremacy is not just the KKK, Richard Spencer, Dump, etc. Many cops are decendents of Irish people. We aren’t talking about the Ukraine or Irish people who still live in Ireland. Your deflection is duly noted and completely blocked because it is irrelevant to this discussion. I even spefically wrote about the Irish in the US and Canada for a reason. Keep on subject.
They were never white in Ireland because of how they were treated. Whiteness is not just how pale you are but your socio economic status. Whiteness is a socio-economic status. Given how the Irish were treated by the English, they were never white in their own country. The English who dominated and essentially destroyed old Irish culture would have been the white ones.
When Munroe said “all white people” she included people who still live in Ireland or Ukraine so im not deflecting and since Munroe said All she made them relevant and part of the discussion. So if Munroe wants to be specific about white America being part of perpetuating race issues then feel free but its a big world and all people cant be paintef with the same brush. Irish Culture has been destroyed, whole English invaded and dominated for 100s of years the Irish maintained their own language, history and culture which is very different than the English culture.
First, pay attention. My comment was in response to Imqrious2, so,no, your comment was not relevant to what I wrote. That poster did not mention the Ukraine or people still living in Ireland. She/he mentioned being Jewish and I formed my response from her/his comment. You are right that you did not deflect, you changed the subject, which is equally as annoying.
The second part of your paragraph makes no sense. You gave me a truncated history lesson that proves my point. Irish Gaelic is a moribund langauge; Ireland was taken over by the English invaders and the Catholic church. Neither were there before but still exist there today. Gaelic is not even spoken throughout the country as the official language, which it was unoffically before the English invaders came to their island. Irish Gaelic is not even standardized, which is a shame.
My comment is relevant bc it equates to the actaul thread. So no i didnt change the subject i brought it back to the point which i understand you dont like. I dont were you get your facts on Ireland but Gaelic is still taught in Ireland and used frequently, while English is the main language now theynstill have their own heritage to be proud of.
At least you admitted to changing the subject. No, your original comment is not relevant to my first comment because we were not talking about what you brought up in this particular section. I specifically wrote that I was responding to her/him. Your response to my comment makes no sense and is irrelevant to the point I made with that poster. I specifically pointed out which poster I meant as well so you cannot claim that I didn’t. What is so hard to understand about that? Did you not read what she wrote? Apparently, not since you will not admit you were wrong. You could have posted a brand new message but you chose to respond to a different conversation with a response that had nothing to do with what we were talking about. The OP in this section mentioned being Jewish and then it flowed from there. You inserted your comment where it did not belong and wanted to change the subject instead of posting somewhere on this thread.
Gaelic is not the predominant language in Ireland, English is. Yes, there are a few places where people speak it primarily but it is not even remotely in the same numbers as primary English speakers and not even close to the numbers as it used to be. In fact, English is slowly starting to creep in and take over those places where it is primarily spoken as well. I also never wrote that it is not being taught I said it was moribund, which means it is on the decline and it is in Ireland. What percentage of native Irish people can speak and write and think in fluent Irish Gaelic? Please use government figures and not a head count of the people you know.
We don’t matter.
I am going to tell my older relatives their experiences weren’t bad or horrible because they are white. It will comfort them.
For goodness sake. Nazi is a term against Jews. They were chanting in Charlottesville about us. They were wearing Nazi memorabilia. They have desecrated our graves. We were kept out us of clubs, neighborhoods, and schools until the 80s. The alt-right’s main target is Jews.
My children’s Hebrew school gets bomb threats every month. Two terrorist attacks in Paris against Jews. Three temples in Europe were torched.
Correction-Jews are only one of their main targets. Their other targets are black/brown anyone they don’t categorize as white. Don’t be foolish for the sake of drama. As a black woman I’m not safe in a crowd of Nazi’s and guess what, my ancestry is also Jewish so just stop it. Let’s be precise and distinguish between racism & prejudice because they are NOT the same. Let’s stop the Olympics of sufferation because you we’re not talking about you today. We are speaking about this woman’s experience which is valid. Let’s be precise and deal with the fact that those who can benefit from their white privilege do just that when it suits them.
Why is it so hard for some of us to look in the mirror and admit what’s there.
“All white people are racist.”
That is what we are talking about in this instance. Not white privilege or nuance. All white people are racist.
“Jews will not replace us” How does that relate to you? Do you even know why they chose that formation or why they chose torches? The symbolism does not mean as much to you as it does to me. The alt right being Holocaust deniers doesn’t affect you as it does me. Their terrorist methods are different, but violence is violence.
You just did to me what you are accusing me of doing to you.
What is the problem in talking about what she said that upset people? You aren’t even acknowledging that people are saying that “ALL” is the problem. Not some. Not a majority. ALL.
I already know what racism is. You seem to think everyone who is trying to make a point is making the same point. I am not one of the people on these threads pushing about semantics because I have argued here about the difference many times. Racism, prejudice, and bigotry aren’t even the same.
I am not sure what you want me to say to you. I don’t agree that all white people are racist. I have recognized that white skin in America comes with perks many times, but my government is also threatening me. But we are talking about me being a racist.
Not mention plenty of the DACA kids are Latino but consider themselves white. Muslims can be white. That is the problem with her statement. It isn’t as simple and cut and dry.
Why is it a problem to acknowledge that?
Nazis murdered gays, Romanis, the disabled, Muslims and Africans. There were concentration camps in North Africa. Obviously Jews suffered in unspeakable ways at the hands of Nazis. But so did others who rarely are remembered by history.
This is why education and respect for the truth is so important. People’s perspectives are skewed by a lack of knowledge.
There are so many threads around here that discuss anti-Semitism but yes, on this thread in particular, within the context of the larger discussion, it is nothing more than derailment to bring it up.
White people are privileged–even Jewish people–in a way that POC are not.
American Jewish people are rightfully fearful in a Trump America; fearful that they will be targeted or that their monuments or temples will be desecrated (and they have been).
That is not the same as being scared that you will get gunned down by law enforcement after being pulled over for driving with a broken taillight.
That is not the same as being scared that you will be thrown in jail for an ounce of marijuana simply because your skin is darker.
That is not the same as being prevented from voting because your voting district is predominantly POC.
Not everything has to be the same. We can acknowledge that both groups face hatred, but make a clear distinction between prejudice and racism as well as acknowledge the different circumstances that each group faces.
Mainly, it’s so disappointing to me that this thread has devolved into #notallwhites.
For all intents and purposes, systemic racism IS applicable to ALL whites. There is just no getting away from that, no matter how hard it might be for us to own up to it.
I strongly object to being called a racist.
Calling someone a racist in these times is the same word used to describe 45 and virulent racists that are working to change the landscape of this country.
The statement I agree with is America is a racist country, and white people have inherent prejudices, and some are openly racists and bigots. If you bring up that issue then words matter.
Kaiser pointed out that part of the interview, and it highlighted that statement. There were people from different backgrounds who didn’t agree with it.
Then imquirious made a statement and got jumped all over, and that opened up the conversation about antisemitism.
I haven’t seen a thread on here about any subject that doesn’t take turns and twists into different areas.
I think a lot of neo nazis actually hate Jews more than they hate black people. And they hate black people A LOT. Anti semitism has been pretty rampant in many areas of Europe for millennia. And it’s still depressingly deep seated and widespread. As are other prejudices that don’t go back so far. This model saying all white people are racists should read about the great, Jewish Helen Suzman, who contributed so much to the struggle for freedom in South Africa. Does she “deserve a cookie’? No. She deserves a hell of a lot more than that. When this model has contributed even the tiniest fraction of what Suzman did to advance the cause of justice, then I might listen to her “ALL white people…”. I have a strong aversion to generalisations, even if they are made in response to what is still a terrible situation for many POC.
@magnoliarose
You say you object to being called a racist. But, you’re engaging in classic deflection (which keeps racism alive). You’re essentially arguing that being called a racist is just as bad as actual racism! You’re making it about YOU.
@Radley
There are African American Jews and African Jews here and in Israel. Indian Jews. Arab Jews. I see them weekly at my temple. We have a peace and justice group with people who are different races and religions to combat intolerance no matter who the group is or the injustice being committed.
The other groups you mentioned that perished are honored in memorials are not forgotten. We teach our children about them too. But we are talking about what is happening right now.
You are right it does help if someone understands history. Did someone deny that?
@Annetommy
You said it better than I could. I hear the rhetoric right now, and we are their primary target. They are throwing out the signals continuously and mimicking Nazi behavior to terrorize old Jews. Their new tactic is to stand outside of temples during Shabbat, and there have been instances when people had to sneak out of the back to avoid them, and they are increasing. Desecrating the graves is another tactic, and 45 wouldn’t even mention it, but he knows that signal too.
@Odette
A person can still acknowledge racism and 30 other issues at the same time. It is not either/or. Talking about a system is one thing, but she was talking about human beings in her initial statement that caused the controversy. How is that deflecting? She didn’t get fired for her position. She got fired for what she said as a spokesperson for a cosmetic company. They didn’t police her thoughts or private politics.
@magnoliarose
But Munroe clarified her statement, and she is right! All white people DO benefit from their skin color in North America and many western countries. But instead of hearing what she has to say, and acknowledging the truth in what she is saying, people like yourself are hand-wringing because she worded the point poorly, at first. It’s crazy making, because it feels like folks, like yourself, are purposefully being obtuse. And from this angle, it comes across like you’re more upset about “injustices against white people,” than you are the insidious and pervasive nature of racism, which is what Munroe is talking about. You’re deflecting / derailing. You say we can acknowledge many forms of bigotry. Yes, we can. But you are doing the exact opposite. In a thread about racism, you’re trying to make it about antisemitism. In other words, you’re sidelining a conversation about race — because YOUR griefs are more important.
This thread has evolved well beyond the “should L’Oreal have fired her” question — it’s impossible to ignore that. So, your point on that end feels a bit disingenuous. (I recognize that I am not doing a great job explaining this last point.)
This thread exhausted me today. I’m pissed I allowed myself to get caught up in it — and it’s maddening to see that so many people out there still don’t understand how gas-lighting, tone-policing, derailment are all tools used to keep the current and destructive status quo in place. Beyond frustrating.
@Odette
The conversation did flow and from that came the posts from Imquirious’ original post about being Jewish. I didn’t begin that thread.
After Charlottesville, she said ALL white people. After Heather Heyer was mowed down fighting for the right side and seeing the Nazis that is how she addresses the entire event and is surprised that maybe that wasn’t the time to discuss the entire issue from one point of view. She made it about her. Right after that event, she didn’t address the hate groups or the reason for the march in the first place.
You are addressing her other points but there is also context involved about the messenger. Her timing was wrong and her takeaway from Charlottesville was wrong.
Her comment was flagged by Facebook because it was against their policy just as it is about all bigoted language or hate speech. Because her statement was bigoted.
You want to move on from her original statement to discuss parts of it but it has to be taken in entirety. It is not my job to pick through her words and discard all of the other aspects of this story when that is all she got from Charlottesville. It is her job to articulate a sensitive point carefully and thoughtfully on a public forum as a spokesperson with a larger than average audience.
@Radley
Almost 5 million others from different ethnic groups. The Roma still suffer in Romania, and they live in absolute squalor. Mentally ill and disabled. Priests, communists, gay, Slavic, Polish, sterilization of black children, Asiatic, Soviet, Africans and people just because they resisted or seemed “off”.
Unfortunately, African Jews are fleeing their communities and even having to be rescued at the moment. The population has increased here and in Israel.
That is why Munroe’s reaction to the violence in Charlottesville by white supremacists was insensitive. I don’t understand why she should get a pass for saying that right after all of the violence that happened. Someone died for goodness sake.
But she says ALL white people are racists as her take away from that horrific event as a biracial transgender British woman. She lumps that with white supremacy and is puzzled by the response.
I just want to add a small observation about how Nazis seem to think about the Jews and black people … Just to be clear: I’m from a Slavic country in the south-center Europe, not the US.
There was hatred of the Jews present practically through all recorded history. There were almost none black people in my area for a long time so the Nazis didn’t pay that much attention to them, except when repeating the usual hatred from their fellows in the US.
However recently, with massive migration from the Middle East and Africa (not just the recent Syrian war, but even economic and other migrations before that), they began to complain more about “Muslim” and “African invasion”. But they actually blame the Jews for it.
I their mind, it’s the Jews that caused feminism, they control the world, they are sending Muslims and Africans to Europe to destroy its Christian civilization. Whatever happens here, the Nazis (and the alt-right in general) ALWAYS blame the Jews. In practice it looks like this: if a Jewish person is accused of a crime, they blame the Jews. If a black person is accused of a crime, they blame both black people and the Jews.
Hope that adds a bit to your perspective. But again, this isn’t America.
@ Magnoliarose
You’re still deflecting and ignoring the fact that Munroe clarified her statement — and what she said was spot on accurate. ALL white people do benefit from their skin color in North America and the UK. You refuse to see this point.
L’Oreal is and has been known to be trash for a while now. This is the same corporation that puts out skin whitening creams (which can cause serious medical issues and capitalizes on centuries of colorism, racism, and classism in Asia and Africa).
On the other hand, I think Bergdorf’s wording in her initial posts were counterproductive. Express yourself, but no hearts and minds will change with language like that. As a white woman, I agree with her statements about inherited racism and white supremacy; I’ve had to aggressively check my own unconscious assumptions and prejudices, and I still constantly catch myself thinking unfair and racist things. That’s the heritage (for me) of being white in America. But statements like hers only make people who feel the same and those who feel opposite more entrenched in their position.
I don’t want to police of WoC’s expression of her experience and beliefs. She can do whatever she wants. It’s just my opinion.
There isn’t room for one second for this kind of ‘speech’ – ever.
It IS reverse racism and is running rampant in the US as of late.
It’s disgusting and of course L’Oreal did the absolute right thing in firing her.
If a white person sounded off like this (in the reverse) I would expect to see them turfed.
Hi Pandy, we did see white people do this. We’ve seen it lost specifically and recently when white people were asking where all of the moderate muslims were after terrorist attacks. We’ve seen white people do it with the issues in Detroit and Chicago. I think very few of them ever have to account for their words, and on the other side of the coin, very few of them have the same platform that Munroe was given.
I support Munroe, although I think her statement should have been worded differently in the beginning, simply because of her contract. That being said, policing the “aggressiveness” of a WOC is a problem in itself. White people don’t realize the subtle racism in play unless they make a CONSCIOUS effort to examine their life.
I am white white white. I grew up in the “South” with a father who claims not to be racist, but who is, in “subtle” ways. I was never even around a POC until I turned 17 and went to Governor’s School with people from all over the state. I never thought about my privilege and how I’ve benefitted from the system until probably the last 8-10 years. I read, I learned, and I made a conscious effort to confront my biases, even though I never felt overtly racist. I lead a very diverse, very large team at a Fortune 50 and it’s my responsibility to make sure that we aren’t just addressing overt racism, but that we’re also looking under the rocks and the surface to make sure we are giving minorities the same growth and development opportunities, that we are not unconsciously discriminating during hiring, that we don’t let the built in system protect the status quo. These things HAPPEN and they happen daily-white men in their 40s and 50s still drive the decision making throughout the corporate world, and if you don’t conform to their ideals, you’re effed. If you’re a POC, you better not talk “ghetto” and better keep your hair “professional,” you better not have an accent or dress “sexy” (I’m using quotes because that’s subjective perception, NOT reality). It makes me tired because SO MANY PEOPLE say shit like, “I don’t see color.” I’ve lectured at least 3 of the managers that work for me about that shit. THAT’S a white person privilege in one sentence, and people never realize it.
I can walk away from the fight tomorrow and my life won’t change-it might get easier. But POCs and minorities can’t walk away from their skin, their experiences, and their life, so we have a d*mn responsibility to get in the trenches and follow their lead. I don’t wear L’oreal typically, but I do use Lancôme, and they just lost a client.
Meh, give her a break, she’s a model…all models are dumb. See how that works Munroe? (who is very beautiful BTW and probably should be given another chance, I really don’t think that is how she meant to state her opinion.)
Her statement was so clearly talking in terms of classes of people, not individuals. I don’t know how people don’t get that, or how anyone who finds that upsetting would cope with a sociology class.
She’s doing an amazing job expounding on her talking points, but some people just really don’t want to hear it.
I do find it *interesting* that I’m seeing a lot of hate towards her in places where everyone would roll their eyes at anyone who came in with ‘not all men’. There’s a lot of white women who understand talking in terms of classes of people when it comes to feminism, but seem to forget all that when racism comes up.
“I do find it *interesting* that I’m seeing a lot of hate towards her in places where everyone would roll their eyes at anyone who came in with ‘not all men’. There’s a lot of white women who understand talking in terms of classes of people when it comes to feminism, but seem to forget all that when racism comes up. ” The truth. When it comes to race some white women are being obtuse.
Speaking from experience, I can attest that ‘white feminism’ is a favorite hiding place for white women who don’t want to take responsibility for their own role in white supremacy. Either ingratiate yourself to white men for protection or huddle in a corner with other white women. I’m not proud to say that I’ve only recently become aware of just how common this phenomenon is. It’s gross and dangerous.
I’m borrowing this explanation- this is a great comparison. “Not all men” = “not all white people” and if you feel offended by one and not the other, maybe you should take a look in the mirror.
“I do find it *interesting* that I’m seeing a lot of hate towards her in places where everyone would roll their eyes at anyone who came in with ‘not all men’. There’s a lot of white women who understand talking in terms of classes of people when it comes to feminism, but seem to forget all that when racism comes up.”
Great point. Along with all of the attempts to police how this young woman chose to express herself, quite eloquently, may I add. Whitesplaining, perhaps?
White or otherwise, if you are capable of critical thinking and setting aside your privilege and whatever discomfort you may encounter when grappling with the truth of white supremacy and the ways that it systematically benefits those with whiteness and disenfranchises those without it, her statement would not offend.
She is stating reality and the respectability politics argument is just another way of denying the realities of peoples of color. It’s abusive and dismissive.
For every person feeling outraged or offended by this woman’s words, do you muster the same outrage against the injustices committed against POC on a daily basis? Is this more a matter of you being triggered by her words? What uncomfortable truths does considering this woman’s words bring up within you?
The truth is, confronting white supremacy is uncomfortable, especially for white people. Confronting any unjust situation where you may benefit is bound to be uncomfortable. But being able to tolerate discomfort in the name of growth, personal and societal, is what is needed to dismantle white supremacy, and all of the other matrices of oppression.
Love this! Completely agree.
All of this.
If someone always tells you the best good things, you aren’t getting the whole truth. If you want to learn, and to be corrected, expect to be uncomfortable.
To answer your question do I get as angry?
Yes, I do. I care about what POC experience and I grew up in a house of people who cared. If you said something was happening I would have your back. I would shield you if I could or die trying and I am not joking. I would go wherever you needed me.
I would do the same for you as I would for Jews.
But I ask you. Would you do the same for me?
@ Magnoliarose
So, let me get this straight (as an observer of your conversation). ParlerBleu makes a cogent argument, so you respond by passive aggressively implying that people of color don’t care what happens to Jewish people!? (“But I ask you. Would you do the same for me?”) And please spare me any plausible deniability arguments (“I was honestly asking a question!” type nonsense).
I shouldn’t butt in — so, sorry for that; but your response floored me.
@Odette
That wasn’t passive aggressive it was a direct question. You interpreted incorrectly. If I want an answer to a question, I ask what I mean to ask. You skipped over the other part of my statement to focus on the last part and then connected it to Jewish when I was talking about just as a human being.
At some point, is it silly to analyze a statement and decide you are correct without clarification. You are determined to prove something, so you dig through every word ignoring that most words have more than one meaning or that people speak in colloquialisms. There aren’t always hidden meanings.
I am curious to know what are you trying to achieve?
Would you prefer white people not be allies and if that is the case then just say that instead of parsing. You can’t expect the issues that affect people individually to be less important to them than what affects other people.
@magnoliarose
You’re textbook gaslighting and have no idea. As such, there’s nothing more to say. All I can recommend is that you read up on “gaslighting” and “tone policing” and “derailment” as it relates to conversations about racism, because that is exactly what you’re doing.
Also, your quip about me not wanting white alies? It’s ridiculous. People are trying to point out where you’re going wrong in your argument, and you’re refusing to listen. And how do you respond? With a look-what-you-made-me-do response.
Co-sign, Kate and others .
“I do find it *interesting* that I’m seeing a lot of hate towards her in places where everyone would roll their eyes at anyone who came in with ‘not all men’”
I see that all the time white women yelling “white men are trash” but the moment something about white women comes up its “NOTALLWHITEWOMEN”
Reminds me also of Lena Dunham talking about male privilege but in the next question saying that nepotism insnt an advantage at all.
White women love to point their fingers at white men but cant take anything themselves.
This thread is already exhausting. The only thing I get from this story is that white people, yes I said white people love to be victimized.
We can call it “Taylor Swift” syndrome. (Not dogging Taylor, I unashamedly love her music, but damn, girl can definitely monetize victimhood.)
@rachel yep i bet all those white Jews loved being victimized during the holocaust or the gay people of Chechnya love being murdered for being whp they are.
@UmYeah Jews and gays are MINORITIES.
Is being gay a race now? Because racism and prejudice are totally different.
You are quite literally proving OP’s point.
You are taking a thread that should rightfully be about blacks being the victims of oppression and consistently undermining and redirecting the focus to make it about whites being the victims of oppression.
@Rachel jews are minorities and white. Gay people are minorities but also can be white. They get to feel like victims when they are accosted for who they are. @Faye who said anything about race???
@kitten this was a thread about a womam who said all whites benefit from racism. Rachel then commented that whiye people love victimized, im pointing out white people who have also beem victimized and probably didnt love it
So many orange tears being cried here today.
I just find it funny how the same corporation did nada to fire James Charles over his racist comments against Africans. It sort of proves the point that about the normalcy and power of white supremacy. But regardless I don’t know why blacks are asking for a seat in white spaces. We should be supporting our own businesses and people to truly get anywhere in a racist system. Just my honest opinion.
Thank you for the example, I was thinking that too. I feel like I’ve heard dumber and more offensive things from models and actors before, this is just pointed at white people.
Hell, one of the favourite Chrises referred to Black Widow as a slut, to no punishment. The president says gross things about Mexicans and gets elected. That racist woman Kat Von D had in a contest was still allowed to win and people were pissed when she was being removed because of her legitimately hateful political leanings.
That’s an excellent point you bring up in regards to James Charles. Smh at this whole mess.
I understand your point about supporting our own, but at the same time I think the feeling of wanting a seat a table stems out of wanting the convenience that are afforded to other groups which I don’t necessarily think is wrong. After all black people have money and limited time to spend it too lol. How to reconcile the two is a topic out of my wheelhouse though.
Is it the same company? That guy works for Covergirl which I believe isn’t owned by L’Oréal.
(He absolutely deserved to get fired!)
Cover Girl isn’t owned by the L’Oréal corporation, Coty currently owns them. (Proctor and Gamble prior to 2016) Maybelline and Urban Decay fall under the L’Oréal brand. Just want to make that clear so there aren’t misunderstandings. He absolutely should have been fired.
Eh, as a white person, I really have no problem with her original statement. All white people — yes ALL — benefit from institutional racism. We are all brought up and exist in a culture of racism. It affects us. It’s our job to be aware of that, resist the inclination to accept it, and to actively do everything we can to dismantle that system of oppression. But it’s certainly there, whether or not we are okay with it.
L’Oreal wanted a black face not a black voice; she’s likely an activist but whenever someone who’s not white speaks about race white people get anxious and knee-jerky.
“L’Oreal wanted a black face not a black voice”. Very true. We have to wait years to be represented and when we voice opinion we’re silented.
Agreed. It really highlights the utter hypocrisy of L’Oreal. Hire a beautiful black face to get your diversity credentials but shut it down as soon as it starts to speak. Disgusting.
Absolutely. And conditional acceptance by the larger power structure as long as you go along to get along is a function of racism.
From a purely marketing stand point, I think L’Oreal blew it. No one is going to boycott L’Oreal because one of their models posted about structural racism on her own Facebook page. If anything, the controversy was more likely to boost sales among the demographic L’Oreal is trying to woo by hiring her in the first place.
No they did not have to fire her if the company believed in inclusivity and moving forward. If they had conviction, they would have kept her and sent out a lengthy statement saying that white supremacy is an issue that needs to be dealt with…But remember this is company that values profits above everything else, so they got rid of her to make sure they will keep people from going to another makeup brand- even though they kept Camila Cabello on even though she called her former co-worker a n-gger. It is hypocrisy at its finest.
” It seems to me that it’s especially difficult to condemn “all white people” with the same brush after Charlottesville, where a white woman literally gave her life to fight the agents of white supremacy. ”
What happened with Heather Hyer was a tragedy but she did not give her life to the cause the way you are trying to make her out to be. She did not go to that rally knowing that she was going to die or even think she was going to get hurt. Why would a white woman even think such a thing? Her attendance at a rally does not elevate her to hero status at all. Me writing this does not minimize her death because she was a woman who was loved by her family and friends and she was legit trying to show her version of support. Having said that: she was a white woman at a rally who was in the wrong place at the wrong time and unfortunately was murdered by a terrorist in a Dodge. Anyone who wants to elevate her to martyr status needs to stop… like right now. Her attending a rally is not the same thing as a BLM activist attending a rally or a DACA recipient going to work knowing they could be caught and arrested. The way some people talk about Heather reminds me of the three students that were murdered by the KKK and put in a ditch in the 1960s. Two white kids and one black guy and most of the conversations were about the sacrifices of the white students. Same thing like what happened in Seattle with the two teenage girls who were being harassed by the white trash on the train and the three men who helped them ending with two of the three dying. No mention on how the girls felt just that the three white men were “heroes”. And it was not until the lone surviving white guy said to stop focusing on him and more on the girls did any one remember that the two victims were women of color and fine- other than their families because they were so busy praising the white guys for doing the right thing. They were so focused on proving #not all whites that they were inadvertantly proving the point.
I personally talk about whites as a whole because every last white person has benefitted from white supremacy- even the good ones. Just because you don’t think you benefit from it doesn’t make what I said false. If it makes you uncomfortable to be lumped in with the KKK and Dump, too bad. Work harder on convincing other whites to help end white supremacy instead of trying to kill the messenger. Silence is complicity when it comes to race. White supremacy is not going to be ended by POC it is going to have to be ended by whites. A white identified person’s discomfort is not more important than a minorities’ life. If you believe that, then start acting like it. Words mean nothing if you aren’t willing to backing it up with actions.
“A white identified person’s discomfort is not more important than a minorities’ life. If you believe that, then start acting like it. Words mean nothing if you aren’t willing to backing it up with actions.”
Truth. 👏🏽 👏🏽 👏🏽
Thank you, Aiobhan, well said.
Fully agree with everything.
Heather Hyer, like the white guys murdered by the KKK, was taking a stand about an injustice that did not affect her personally. The white guys murdered by the KKK may have been personally better off supporting the overtly racist society of the South at the time. The repression certainly wasn’t impacting on them the way it was on POC directly affected. The white guys weren’t oppressed themselves but chose to stand with the oppressed. They paid with their lives. The concept of the Righteous Gentile is recognised in relation to the Holocaust: people not directly affected by the atrocities who chose nevertheless to do the right thing. To do that is worthy of recognition and admiration.
A lot of tumblr kids are going to find out that they can’t get away with yelling monologues at people and dogpiling them into submission at their job. Which is probably why most of them don’t have one and go by “freelance/ online/ blogger/ activist” instead.
Oh look, it’s the sobbing right wing Swift stan from the other thread.
France and Germany were colonial powers who benefited from the human capital and natural resources of the lands they colonized in Africa and around the world. So yes, built on the backs, blood, and death of people of color.
Not surprising that a racist would be this breathtakingly ignorant. Read up on French & German colonialism & stop embarrassing yourself. Infact, pick up a few more history books on pre-colonial Africa while you’re at it.
Munroe: ALL people who aren’t like me are racists!!
Me: Oh puke!
You’re not right. Actually, you’re horribly wrong. Do yourself a favour and read about France and Haiti, which is just ONE example.
Do you want to start with France and Africa? Because I can, and in chronological order too.
I think Loreal was looking for a spokesperson to make them seem progressive and hip and with the times. They wanted her to be very “peace and love” I’m sure, because that’s what they wanted to project by hiring her… She wasn’t.
As a white person, I can’t help but be a little bit taken aback and hurt by what she said. And as a business owner, I also understand why Loreal had to fire her… But I don’t doubt that her feelings are true, and that her pain is real. And for that, I hope it gets better.
Good lord, I don’t even know where to start with this.
Her comments were racist.
MC2, Kitten, Rachel, Megan and a couple of others I haven’t written down, thank you so much for getting it. This thread is incredibly sad with all these White Women tears flowing at what Monroe said, which is absolute truth.
ALL WHITE PEOPLE benefit from the system of racism. That’s a fact. If you can’t see that, then you’re blind.
LYNNIE, I agree with what you said. I wish past commenters were still here.. They were so good at schooling the ignorant. Eg, GNAT, Eternal Side Eye to name a couple.. The level of intelligence has lowered with some of these new commenters..
Hi DurbanGirl 🙂
I miss Eternal Side-Eye every day. She was such a powerful voice on these threads, in addition to being a gifted teacher AND writer.
Miss Gnatty too.
I miss Eternal and GNAT too, a lot. And Tifzlan.
I can’t tell you my level of frustration right now.
Ditto. Ramona too. We’re losing a lot of strong voices and it’s disheartening. To think they left because of comments here is really sad.
Ramona is great as well.
@Rachel and others-Hang in there. I can only imagine how exhausted you ladies must be but just know we will continue to try to help where we can. It shouldn’t fall on black people to school us whites about this shit–y’all have enough to worry about.
I’m so glad I was too busy to keep up with this thread today because it makes me want to bang my head against a desk.
Frankly comments like the ones on here exhaust me. The old commenters you mentioned were gems and I missed talking to them.
I may have to peace out of here too. The amount of snowflakes that have apparently taken over CB is absurd
If you leave then I’ll know it’s the beginning of the end 😢. I don’t blame you though I’ve been taking longer and longer breaks as well.
Please don’t leave, Nicole. I seriously look forward to your comments on all subjects from politics to Taylor Swift to racism.
Anyone who questions institutionalized racism in western society should read the latest news on Disney. Apparently they have created a new character for live action Aladdin so they can cast a white person. Why would a white guy be in an ancient Middle Eastern city, FFS?
I’ve been wondering about some of those commenters too.
This thread is so filled with ignorance.*pretends to be shocked*.
You guys really get hurt when people call out the fact that white people benefit from racism. It’s not a lie. ALL WHITE PEOPLE BENEFIT FROM RACISM. YOU DO. Then again, this post was out of context and made her comments seem bad.
Like a commenter said.. most of you have Taylor Swift Syndrome.
It IS a “if you’re not with us, you’re against us” mentality, because it’s true. You can’t be neutral and standby with racism. You just can’t.
And l’Oréal still has a contract with James Charles and Cheryl Cole. Two examples of the privilege that comes with being white.
You’re absolutely right. These comments are a mess!!!! Get it together, people. We’re better than this!
Just because someone ‘benefits’ from racism, that doesn’t make that person a racist. It doesn’t make them guilty of anything but being born a certain color.
Nobody gets to choose the color they’re born with.
Racism was constructed centuries ago. Those who perpetuate it today are only to blame.
Why is benefit in quote marks?
I wrote a whole text explaing why, but I just said what’s the point and deleted it. Either do some research or stay in your privileged bubble.
White folk were forced to give women a semblance of equality when a massive world war killed and otherwise engaged their male population.
All colonial nations used slaves, to my knowledge. All colonial nations participated in or supported genocide. Most established countries still use slavery of sorts in their industries. The chocolate company Mars, for example, refused to remove slave and child labor from their supply chains until after 2020. The legislation changed so the companies who did agree just moved from Cote D Ivoire to Indonesia where international laws are more lax in that regard, so it’s probably still happening.
Black women not being treated equally in song lyrics are a symptom of a disease. I agree it’s gross, but white men and women contribute to the disease, but flipping this back to black men is in poor taste.
She absolutely should have been fired, no question. Her statements were unacceptable and ridiculous.
I’m also very, very surprised at some of these comments. No, not all white people are filled with hate. But ALL white people DO benefit from the system of racism, and therefore all white people participate in the system of racism. It’s our responsibility to tear it down. She could have worded it more clearly, but she is not wrong. And there is a HUGE difference between a transgender black woman saying “all white people” and a white person saying “all black people.” When white folks say it it’s dangerous and it costs black lives.
Thank you Shambles. I don’t understand these comments. Normally I agree with more ppl on here but today is like opposite day or something.
It sucks, because many people say, ‘what can I do to help, I want to be a good ally. In the face of Trump and of Charlottesville, professing their want to listen. Yet here is an opportunity to meet (justified) anger and frustration with understanding and it all that goes out the window because of hurt feelings.
Or because anecdotes. The anecdotes that are always one person, or a group,and the inability to see how that personal experience magnified into a national undercurrent might be different.
Yes to everything you said, Detritus.
No kidding!!!!
All humans are potentially racist but no one is born racist. it is a human construct and a human problem. You are not immune or exempt if you are black, brown or of any color on the planet. When we identify someone as “different”, “other” and thereafter as flawed because of difference thereby being genetically, intellectually, culturally, racially inferior– we are racist. What happened in Rwanda between the Hutus and Tutsis was racism. The Pashtuns slaughtering and oppressing Hazara in Afghanistan is also racism. I come from Ukraine, a country that had no state sponsored connections to the slave trade but certainly has a horrible track record when it comes to anti-semitism, Pogroms and the oppression of Jewish people. Slavery is not just white construct it is a human construct. It is a human problem. To say otherwise is myopic, reductionist and a gross sweeping generalization not based in fact. In the past few centuries it has been a problem in which the oppressors were Anglo and Western- European nations who colonized and systematically enslaved and then continually oppressed people from African and Asian nations. History goes much further back than a few centuries. Slavery, oppression, war, rape, violence, racism, misogyny, subjugation, oppression–these are human constructs and human problems. They go back a lot further than 500 years.
They go back pretty well to the beginning of humankind!
Greek democracy was run on the work of slaves and it was a Roman policy – become allies or become slaves. Norman feudalism was form of slavery
This thread is so disappointing. There are so many ignorant comments and people STILL don’t know the true definition of racism.
Same. That’s why “stay woke” is a thing. Sometimes self described allies are only allies up to a point. When it gets inconvenient or people get in their feelings, we are on our own. And that’s the moral of this story.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/racism
I am white and I live in the uk. I totally acknowledge and abhor the horrendous part Britain in the past played in slavery and what that did for this country. Does that make me racist at a personal level? No it does not.
Is there racism still in my country? Yes there is. Is it all white against black? No it isn’t – check all the organised gangs of child abusers in my country over the last few years.
And often the prejudice isn’t just about skin colour but intertwined with religious beliefs – check honour killngs.
But don’t tell me all white people are racist please. Sweeping generalisations can be very dangerous.
People are surprised L’Oréal didn’t give a damn about racial questions?
What a shock (deep sarcasm here). Since their racial discrimination imbroglios and trials a decade ago(lost trials), I’ve never bought anything owned or associated with l’Oréal and never understood how any woman of color agreed to be their token black/brown ambassador.
Court of appeal in Paris found them guilty of racial discrimination in their process to select job applicants. They used the infamous BBR tag in their job ads. BBR for Bleu Blanc Rouge (the flag), the well known code in the job world in the 90’s and early 00’s for white only. Sure, they resorted to the old excuse that some subcontractor did it without their knowledge or consents. Judges didn’t fall for that.
I find it difficult to feel sorry for her. If the way women of color are treated is so important to you, refuse to be the face of a company condemned for racial discrimination (again not ages ago, in the 21st century) in the first place.
What do you think Nietzsche meant by “Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you.”
Don’t allow the rage against the (monstrous) baseness of what you’re fighting against cause you to lose sight of or dilute, distract or detract from your better message.
In short, I think he was saying, go high.
Jesus Christ. France was one of the three biggest colonial powers. Germany wasn’t as much of a big player as France because they entered the Scramble for Africa quite late when the most areas had already been taken, but they were just as aggressive in some of their colonies. One of the, if not the first genocides of the 20th century was committed by German military in today’s Namibia.
Has nobody mentioned Spain?
Uggghhh. Racism is founded in racial stereotypes and we all have them and are all guilty to varying degrees, Yes POC can be as racist as whites in holding on to these stereotypes. To discriminate though — you must have power.
And yeah — you collect the check you follow your employers rules. As is often said on here — everyone has freedom of speech, but you are not free from repercussions of what you say, And THAT should apply to everyone. She was racist in her comments.
She’s always been outspoken, they knew who they signed and who they were trying to exploit for profit. Read her Guardian interview, it’s illuminating.
Past practice is a good indicator of future performance, but knowing she was outspoken in the past doesn’t mean she can’t or shouldn’t be held accountable for what she says on a go forward basis. They shouldn’t be surprised. But they can still be disappointed and choose to not continue the relationship. Doing it previously isn’t a pass on doing it in future.
Great way to put it.
“I support the fight against institutional racism…as long as it prioritises my precious white feefees”- White ‘liberals’
Do you wanna know how many white feminists have spoken about Blackness and womanhood as though they were mutually exclusive (that’s white supremacy in action, in case you needed me to spell it out)? Do you wanna know what the general response was from white users when Black women pointed out the inherent racism in presenting white womanhood as the default? “Stop nitpicking and focus on the message!” they said. “You’re being oversensitive!” they said. “Stop being divisive” they said.
Bill Maher literally used the N word on live television and most white people here were more than happy to forgive and forget, because of course it would be their place to forgive a white man for oh-so-casually using a word loaded with 500 years of violence against black bodies. Naturally, any Black person that wasn’t willing to fall in line and walk it off was being divisive and an enemy to progress and a general big black meany.
Seriously, spare me your white tears. Munroe is right, whiteness as a construct is inherently violent and destructive and poc have and continue to be at the receiving end of that violence. Anyone who truly cares about dismantling white supremacy would see that. Some of ya’ll would rather ensconce yourselves in white victimhood than face the uncomfortable truth though.
I did a quick skim and by God people are completely missing the point of Bergdorf’s comments. All the #notallwhitepeople-ing here.
I dont care to debate her opinion but does anyone honestly believe her post was materially productive to the phlight of poc.
Not everyone can inspire change and progress in the minds and hearts of people. Her approach certainly did not seem to do that if that was her intention. I miss obama
So educate me. I understand the term white privilege and How institutional racism will benefit white people. But white privilege is not the same as white supremacy which is the message I’m getting in the comments.
By labelling all white people as white supremacists surely you are weakening the labelling of the alt right Neo nazi scum as white supremacists. Which is dangerous.
Personally, I think it’s the same thing. Both terms point to how white people (in the US) benefit over POC because of institutional structures meant to primarily benefit white people.
IMO, as commonly used, it seems to be a matter of degree (e.g. white privilege generally is used when referring to comparatively small things that many white people often don’t consider racist (e.g. getting asked where they’re from all the time or demands to touch their hair) v. white supremacy meaning racism that even white people know is bad).
For me, privilege is something you have, supremacy is something you believe.
privilege is the outcome of unequal systems, supremacy is an unequal system.
Words in academic meaning and in colloquial meaning get muddled though, I think that blend is what we are seeing. Same with racism and predjudice.
If your definition of a white supremacist is somebody who wears a white good and burns crosses in a black family’s front yard, maybe. On the other hand, it could be argued that the vast swaths of white Americans who refuse to educate themselves or acknowledge the socioeconomic impact of racism have done just as much if not more damage than actual Nazis. After all, it wasn’t minorities who put Donald Trump in office.
This will probably get lost in the morass of comments, but this post/comments in this post made me think of Dr. Phillip Goff’s comments on how the definition of racism is in and itself racist – the definition “privileges the character of perpetrators over the harms of targets,” so that people are more focused on making sure [here, white] people’s feelings don’t get hurt rather than what the actual stakes are (e.g. communities being marginalized).
This was really thought provoking. I’ve never thought about it that way before.
Her language is inflammatory and divisive as evidenced by the reaction here. In this day and age, that’s irresponsible and I can’t get behind someone with that language. Shame her message gets lost in it cuz what she says makes sense but her delivery divides not making progress or unity
While that may be true, I also don’t think the onus should be on her to not be pissed off and frame her argument in a perfect way. I can listen to what she’s saying and understand why she’s upset without taking it as a personal attack on me.
Other posters today did an excellent job of articulating her same message in a less offensive way. Her delivery resulted in too many posters backed up into their respective corners with their metaphorical fists up.
But if the problem truly is not with what she said but with how she said it, then I don’t really see what the issue is.
Because it’s often in HOW we say things where our true intentions or feelings show.
Well put. Her comment was obnoxious and divisive. People have been labeled as racists and vilified here for much less inflammatory and hate-filled statements than the one she initially made.
Saying “all white people” or “all men”, “all black people”, “all Chinese”, etc. will immediately alienate within earshot who doesn’t already agree with you, and their ears will close.
Her first statement sounded racist to me. And so many posters here seems to agree with it, and thats heartbreaking for all white people who support equality, anti racism and progress. Just reading all these comments make me lose a little faith in a time when this is all history. I’ll never judge anyone by skin color, but by actions, but it seems because I am white I cant do anything right.
*shrugs* I’m a white woman. I don’t see anything particularly wrong or offensive about what she said. Fundamentally, it’s more or less true – people with privilege tend to be blind to the suffering of minorities around them. We all grow up with sexism and racism in our daily lives, even if it’s not overt; we all have to be aware enough to root it out inside us and face it. Racism wouldn’t still be alive today if it wasn’t tacitly supported by active and silent prejudice. As a company, L’Oreal has the power to pick and choose who represents their brand, but honestly…it says a lot that a black woman being blunt about her experiences, being honest about the anger and frustration that comes with the daily experience of prejudice, has generated so much backlash both from the company and the public.
Racism is ugly. It’s possibly uglier now in the U.S. than it’s been in the mainstream for awhile. You should expect the repercussions of that to be ugly. It’s a privilege to expect victims of 200+ years of systemic color-based hatred, oppression, and suffering to package their suffering in a way that’s palatable and makes you feel good about yourself. Some black and brown people may hate you for your white skin no matter how “woke” you try to be. They may do and say things and behave in ways that hurt you. Part of being an ally – a true ally – is recognizing that their anger and hatred is founded in legitimate grievance of their treatment at the hands of a flawed society. Part of being truly “woke” is being willing to fight for them no matter the actions of individuals. Part of that is being willing to forgive that because it’s a privilege not to have to carry that anger and degradation around with you all the time.
Co-sign. My fee-fees are not hurt when women of color speak their truth and share honest opinions.
No, but she said it as a response to the Nazi/KKK protest in Charlottesville. Everyone seems to ignore the context of her statement.
I guess she hasn’t studied history, or much of anything, if I had to guess. The Egyptians were the original slavers, and they were black. Slavery began in Africa when they captured other tribe members and sold them to whites and arabs. The caucasian/European countries were the first to end slavery and the Arabs were much more cruel, often castrating the males.
People will believe anything these days as long as it gives them entitled gimme something status. If you want to see how the blacks mangage their own people — look at Africa, even South Africa where the so called oppressive white regime was overthrown. There are more murders in a single day in South Africa now then there were in years under white rulership. They now have one of the highest rape and crime rates in the world now and their economy is in shambles. Things are really not what they seem.
Seriously, Sirius, nostalgic for apartheid or as you call it, “white rulership”? Your own study of history hasn’t earned you any bragging rights. You don’t have to be the brightest star in the field to get on the right side of history with respect to the bloody legacy of apartheid in South Africa. Nor Nazi Germany. Nor the southern Confederacy.
Your comment is f@cked and your stats are made up.
Get out of here with your revisionist White Rulership, say what you mean. You want apartheid back.
@ Sirius, you must be dumb or a troll. Did you really imply that black people can’t govern their own country Because they stupid, you really typed that and thought you were dropping knowledge, da phuck! You ain’t sh!t for that booboo and you ain’t sly with your soft racism too
It just seemed to be a case of ‘right message, wrong word choice’ (as in, the moment you read it you knew what people would zero in on and that the deplorables would come make it all about themselves). Her second statement is fine.
She stuffed up and refuses to admit it even her own mother who is white offended. Being a hypocrite isn’t attractive either she was happy to do the campaign with Cheryl Cole until she was fired, but now Cheryl’s a racist, which is it you can’t have your cake and eat it to. Cheryl was also acquitted of the racial part of that charge.
We’re all racist. I admit it that in my deepest, darkest thoughts I say racist shit. Am I proud? No. But you know what the difference is between me and the people on here swearing up and down that they’re not racist or that reverse racism exists? That I’m willing to acknowledge the truth about my prejudices and that when I catch myself thinking something racist because society constantly tries to engrain racism within all of us – I stop myself and tell myself that that’s f**ked up and then I think about all of the reasons why that racist shit I thought wasn’t true. Because of that, I’m becoming a better person, a less racist and prejudiced one. You wanna combat racism? Combat it within yourself first.
I see nothing wrong with what she said. Personally, I’d dig even deeper into that statement. I want to be a true ally to black people – the people whose bodies and blood this nation is founded upon – and even though my parents immigrated here in the late 70’s from Thailand, I still owe a debt to these people and their descendants whose lives were and still are used as labor for white people. So to me, that means acknowledging my complicity in their suffering and changing my mindset, getting rid of prejudices, donating money where I can and listening to what they say instead of getting offended and angry when they say that white people are racist.
Her comments are a bit hurtful I for one am a white person who comes from a European country that has never participated in racism, slavery etc so it does not apply to all of us. However if a white model made these comments they would just issue an apology and get to keep their job. Still shows that racism in America is alive and well and she has the right to make her opinion known firing her is way to harsh a punishment.
This was certainly an eye-opening thread. As off as many comments were, I believe many CB commenters / readers learned something over the course of this discussion. At least, I don’t think I’ve ever made so many screenshots of comments within a discussion before. I’m honestly thankful to everyone for taking their time and explaining their perspectives, even when it got hard to keep calm (for either side, no matter how aware or snowflake-y), or when comments were painfully challenging. I am really thankful Bergdorf started this discussion, and I do think it helped many people further their awareness or learn something, by discussing her statement, or by simply taking in her words. I think both ways are helpful in understanding things a lot better. So here’s an honest thank you.