Yesterday we heard that Tom Cruise’s former auditor, an ex Scientologist and former second in command of the entire organization, Marty Rathbun, had predicted an early settlement in Cruise’s divorce. Rathbun had posted an entry to his blog on Sunday detailing the way Scientology head and close friend of Cruise’s, David Miscavige (shown above), regularly handled PR crises for the cult. This was their biggest to date, and Rathbun knew that a settlement was forthcoming and that Cruise would pay whatever it took to make it go away. He was right of course, and the way he called it all was kind of amazing.
Rathbun even predicted that Scientology would then play the victim and “make the media and their sources wrong for having allegedly jumped the gun to insinuate Scientology into the matter.” Lo and behold, Tom Cruise’s lawyer just issued a statement this morning that. “The Church of Scientology played absolutely NO ROLE in the divorce settlement talks at all. Period. The mere suggestion that the Church was involved in any element of the talks and ultimate settlement is categorically false. Anyone suggesting otherwise is just wrong.”
This means that Rathbun called Tom Cruise’s divorce playbook ahead of time, down to each point. (You can read more on the Village Voice’s blog.) Kudos to him, really. It just goes to show how deep Cruise is involved with this cult and how he follows their guidance in all matters.
Rathbun just did a radio interview for political talk show host Michael Smerconish. He explained how the cult operates under David Miscavige, about Cruise’s position in Scientology, and about how Miscavige brought Cruise back into the fold after he was “out” of the cult during his marriage to Nicole Kidman. Rathbun also discussed the way that Scientologists harassed and stalked him daily for about a year after he left. I was so impressed with how calm and well spoken he was. You can listen to the interview here and I’ve transcribed some of it below. This guy sounded very intelligent and his story was fascinating.
On how Tom got enticed to come back into Scientology
It was just prior to that [2004] when I left the organization. I was Tom’s auditor, or Scientology counselor, for the last 6 or 8 years that I was there. I worked recovering him back to Scientology, he had about an 8-9 year period where he was… out of communication with Miscavige.On how Miscavige was obsessed with Tom Cruise
One of the things that was really bothersome to me around 2004 when that award was bestowed [a Scientology “Freedom medal of valor award,” video below] was just how much Miscavige was making it an obsession to become Tom’s best friend and to go into his circles and get into that celebrity high life of going over to Tom’s house on movie night to watch movies, going to his premieres, going to parties…. He had this obsession with the guy.On if Miscavige wooed Tom to assist with recruitment
That was the organizational motivation, with him it was something beyond that. He’s very into power and image and he was very into Tom Cruise in particular. He loved to mingle with the celebrities, but Tom was his boy. Tom was his obsession.On what auditing means in lay terms
I like to use this paradigm, the U2 song “Stuck in a Moment.” Auditing is simply a one-on-one counseling technique where the auditor directs the person’s attention towards incidents in his past… so that he frees his attention to the present and he wakes up spiritually.There’s supposed to be absolute trust in order for the process to work.
On if he’ll ever reveal what Tom Cruise told him in auditing sessions
[No] There’s been many enticements for me to do otherwise. I posted on my blog an offer from the National Enquirer to give me $20,000 plus promotion for my book if I just disclose a few secrets, but I just won’t do it.On how Scientologists stalked him for a year
Last year they spent nearly the entire year tracking every single literal footstep that my wife and I made. They had teams in our hometown, on our doorstep, any time we went somewhere there was teams of private investigators picking us up. We sort of broke the back of that through media exposure, but that went on for an entire year, 2011.On why he left Scientology: violence and beatings
There’s been tremendous efforts by the Church of Scientology to suppress this information, but at the international base where Miscavige hangs out near Riverside, California, the highest levels of Scientology degenerated into this sort of culture of violence. Miscavige began beating people, punching people, physically punishing them to the point where he was requiring it of others. It was a widely spread practice at the international base.One evening Miscavige made a show of beating up a close friend of mine and that was sort of the last snapping straw for me.
On if he’s disillusioned with Scientology’s management or their beliefs or both
I question everything, but I still find a lot of good in Scientology. I wrote a book called… What is Wrong with Scientology, and I break it down and try to differential for people between the religion, philosophy on one hand and the organization, Miscavige on the other hand. And I think that different ion had to be made…One of the things the outside public has trouble grasping is one of the reasons people put up with it is they do get something out of it… I still think the philosophy has a lot to offer, but the abuses of the organization are way over the top.
On Xenu, thetans and the galactic confederacy story
Well you know, a lot of people are making an analogy of what’s going on in Scientology over the last three years with the reformation, because it’s essentially in a way we’re reforming the church of Scientology, but we’re following the path of the reformation… It’s to say, the Bible is not a monopoly. You don’t have to follow all this kooky, spooky liturgy to study the Bible and practice it the way you want to.On if Scientology is a cult
The church of Scientology most absolutely is a cult and it was what provoked me to leave it. But when I left I never really doubted the benefits I got out of the auditing process and the study of the actual philosophy… I draw that line.On independent Scientologists
There’s a burgeoning movement of independent Scientologists who find all these organizational policies and practices abusive… I just literally practice out of my house.On Tom Cruise’s position in Scientology
Tom is what we call a public Scientologist, he’s not a staff member. The organization I was in… you sign a billion year contract to signify your commitment. That’s the priesthood. Tom is a parishioner.On Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes’ divorce settlement
On Sunday I did a blog post where I predicted this would happen. They did it almost precisely… The amount of media attention that was focused on the Church of Scientology was just way too intense. It was clear to me they were going to have to punt and punt quick.On if Cruise was pressured by Scientology to settle the divorce
I don’t think he was… I think it was a mutual thing. I think it was Miscavige and Tom making a decision [together]. I think he’s self-motivated and he’s in a complete alignment and thinks parallel with Miscavige now.
The violence and psychological abuse that Rathbun talks about were covered in a series of articles in the Tampa Bay Tribune which ran in 2009, we covered it at the time and you can read it here. At that time, Rathbun also claimed that Scientology coordinated Tom’s divorce from Nicole Kidman, declaring her an impediment to his commitment to Cos and encouraging Tom and Nicole’s split. Rathbun’s version of this story is consistent with at least two other ex-Scientologists who have spoken to the press, actor Jason Beghe and now ex Scientologist Nancy Many, who recently spoke to Radar Online. Nancy told Radar that “They had this wonderful anniversary then as far as I am concerned, he gets work done one on one and is told ‘You’ve got to get back into the fold, Nicole is stopping you,’ all this was manipulation.”
So according to at least three known Scientologists who have spoken on the record, Cruise was told to dump Nicole Kidman because Miscavige wanted him as his boy and Kidman wasn’t committed to the cult. I love that Katie was able to blindside him and get out on her own.
You can purchase Rathbun’s book, What is Wrong With Scientology, on Amazon.com. The image on the cover is of Scientologists coming over to Marty’s house to “bust” him, they call themselves “squirrel busters,” for practicing their religion outside of the cult. You can watch a video of that below. Marty loses his cool and takes their camera, but can you blame him? (Update: he apparently just threw down the guy’s sunglasses. No biggie.)
The “Squirrel Busters,” aka Scientologists, visit Marty’s house to harass him.
Here’s Tom Cruise accepting the “Freedom Medal of Valor” Award in 2004, along with some segments of his Scientology promotional video:
Here are some new photos of Cruise on the set of Oblivion in June Lake, California yesterday. Got to keep up that action hero image. The Sun notes that he’s not wearing his wedding ring, but he’s on set it’s hard to tell if he’s taken it off for good. He is divorced now though.
Photo credit: L Prima/FAMEFLYNET
Mr. Rathbun is still a scientologist, an independent one for whatever that is worth. He just does not belong to the COS. Per his blog and other media sources.
it’s why i think he’s honest and i like the fact that he doesn’t sell what Cruise said during his auditions
I agree. His reluctance to share Tom’s secrets gives him that much more credibility. He could really make money spilling the beans if he chose to but clearly he has his eye on the prize which is spreading the word about the dangers of this cult. Good for him.
Agree. It shows he has integrity, even though I have to admit I’d love to know the secrets!
I can’t even begin to effuse how refreshing it is that this guy isn’t selling Tom’s secrets. Made my week.
+1
I love that he is exposing Misgavige, the Evil Trolldoll. That top video scares the crap out of me. I’m so glad he taped it, because these four guys, just coming to harass him? – dangerous and immature, and how stupid do they look with cameras taped to all of them. How many cameras do they need? Answer – none, really. Because all they’re doing is using cheap scare tactics.
In the second video, you can see Misgavige looks like he’s about to cry he’s so in love with Rumplestiltskin he’s about to bust. It’s all so very transparent.
Crush the Cult and JAIL MISGAVIGE!
gg, serious question here: What are the chances that Miscavige really will go to jail? I’ve been thinking about it ever since the divorce story broke. I’ve been reading about Miscagive’s abuse for years, yet NOTHING has been done yet. He’s an evil evil EVIL man, yet it seems like he’s immune to actually having the law arrest him. I just don’t get it. Is the FBI investigating him and his cult? WHY haven’t they done anything about it yet? It’s just mind-boggling, isn’t it?
You’re probably right, it is going to be not easy. But aim for the stars and maybe there will be some investigation. The co$ layers can stymie, and stymie and stymie till the cows come home about the c0$, but if criminal indictments are handed down against the person of Miss Cabbage (thank you for the moniker), the co$ will be very crippled.
from cnn:
SCIENTOLOGY PRIDES ITSELF ON PROVIDING COUPLES WITH COMMUNICATION TOOLS TO SUCCEED AT MARRIAGE. THE CHURCH’S CELEBRITY CENTER WEBSITE STATES, WHETHER APPLIED TO MARITAL OR PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS; TO ONE’S FAMILY OR CAREER OR SIMPLY ONE’S PERSONAL PEACE OF MIND — SCIENTOLOGY CHANGES CONDITIONS FOR THE BETTER. PRESSLEY SAYS THE CRUISE-HOLMES SPLIT POKES A HOLE IN THAT CLAIM.
(quote from scientology critic)
This is Tom’s third divorce. What does that say about a Scientologist– a senior level Scientologist like Tom, TC, what does it say about his ability to succeed in relationships? I think it’s a huge statement.
I’m done with CNN, they are getting as bad as FOX.
Have a look at the video titled “Some Crazy Scientology stuff and there is an interview with Katie Holmes from years ago. They ask her about auditing etc and she is looking directly in the eyes of the interviewer and then to the left. Both signs that she is perhaps distrustful and/or lying and recalling emotional experiences. Katie was always biding her time!
“I can’t even begin to effuse how refreshing it is that this guy isn’t selling Tom’s secrets.”
Thank you endlesscircle, you stated it perfectly.
That’s endlesscircles with an ‘s’. My apologies.
Imagine what a hero Tom would be to his fans and more importantly, his kids, if he stood up and said out loud that family meant more to him than Scientology. If Tom does not find the backbone and courage to do this, Miscavige’s obsession will eventually decimate Tom’s career and personal life. Miscavige will settle for nothing less than total Cruise control, rendering Tom nothing but a wired puppet in his own life. I can only imagine how difficult it must be to break free from a cult like Scientology, but Tom’s well being, happiness, and career depend on him doing just that. He could finally reconnect with himself, his family, his friends without the distorted prism of Co$.
Tom would be a real life hero if he would reclaim his life by standing up to and exposing Scientology. Where are the police, FBI and government regarding Scientology?
I can’t stop thinking to Connor and Isabella turned against their mother. I feel bad for them.
That’s why Katie was running away with Suri… I kinda feel bad with Cruise for getting involved that deep with Miscavige. I think at the beginning, when they introduced scientology to him, he was looking for something in his life since his childhood was so rough and Miscavige lured him into thinking scientology with his guidance as his salvation. It’s like they brainwashed him or something. I wonder if he ever wake up one day and thinking of getting away from scientology like some other people???
I have to agree with you Rhea, the more I read about this the more sorry I feel for Tom Cruise, he seems so brainwashed and lost in this creepy cult, I’m glad Katie and Suri were able to escape but I wish Tom would just snap into reality and realize how scary co$ really is.
+1
ITA. And even looking at the photos on set, he seems a bit bewildered…trying to get on with business as usual while his life as he knew it and reputation are imploding. Pathetic, really.
Honey, he’s been running alongside the devil himself (Misgavige) for the past several years. They’re two parts of a whole at this point.
Sympathy for the devil? Never. He’s the one enabling Misgavige’s evil dictator role and pouring millions into the cult for further abusive purposes.
Me too. At the end of it all, he’s a lost brainwashed soul.
They’ve got a hold of his core, and he can’t imagine what life would be without it. Reading yesterday’s post, Rathbun practically outed Cruise/Miscavige with his wording. If Tom’s gay and they’re boning, no wonder he won’t leave.
Lord, I’ve been trying to work in “miscavige of justice” in here and I just can’t get there!!! Such a bad pun, it deserves a good sentence. I should have read down a bit. Fits in great with Nicole losing her kids.
@gg —
You and I are on the same page — totally.
Maybe if we keep banging the “Stop feeling sorry for him!” drum loud enough, we’ll get more people to see that point of view.
Tom’s been an accomplice in the evil, not a victim. He has received special treatment from minute one. They feed his impossibly big ego, and he eats it like a binger.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Mr. “So Kind” hasn’t beaten people himself.
Did anyone see Russell Brand’s interview with Graham Norton (which was hilarious)? He mentions that no one’s said no to Tom since 1985. Check out his facial expression when he says that. No love between those two. Russell just wants the work.
@gg & Veruca : I’m not saying he doesn’t have any share with the mess in his life, for sure he’s not free of fault.
BUT, at the beginning when he joined scientology I’m guessing he was hoping it would help him dealing with whatever was going on with his life at that time and his past.
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/tom-cruises-childhood-blame-divorce/story?id=16742057#.T_26MNuF_FI
Miscavige knew it and used that as a weakness to control his mind, perhaps saying only the people at scientology who truly understand and loyal with him. He started as a victim of manipulation, and now he joined the “evil” himself. Like @bluhare said now he can’t imagine what life would be without it.
I wish he has a stronger mind to break free from the past and the church of scientology. He almost made it to separating himself from the church with Nicole’s help. Snap out of it, Tom!
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/01/how_scientology.php
Tom Cruise was a victim in the beginning. Not any more. He is David Miscavige’s best friend, as much as Miscavige (or Cruise) can have friends. I think Tom knows every single thing that goes on in that cult, but everyone who’s abused by Scientology is a little person, not a celebrity, not someone who can do anything for him, so he does not care.
I think Rumplemintz doesn’t know what goes on in the cult, which is another reason he’s so snowed by his girlfriend Miss Cabbage.
Reportedly, only a few people (high-level Sea Org, etc. employees, not parishioners) actually know what goes on. They don’t let all their robots know about the abuse, they couldn’t dare let that happen. Not knowing keeps the $cilons in the dark, and better able to deny, deny, deny.
A person can be successful without harming others. By promoting an abusive cult like Scientology, Tom Cruise has proven he doesn’t have a problem with harming/abusing others to get to the top. Therefore, he’s a bad guy. He’s an asshole–not a victim.
Right on, Rhea. I’m sure this all started with Tom seeking something, but, sadly, he sought it from an organization currently led by a bona fide sociopath who won’t stop insinuating himself into his obsession’s life until he’s become one with the very blood in Tom’s veins. Miscavige can’t hide his tyrannical, maniacal self anymore from public scrutiny. Not only will he be Tom’s undoing but he also has unwittingly positioned himself as the take down artist of his own cult. What happens when law enforcement starts an organized investigation into the disappearance of his wife, financial corruption, abuse of members, etc? The death blow has been dealt to Co$ w this latest debacle; it’s demise is only a matter of time.
@Marie Antoinette Jr. : Like I said he started as a victim of manipulation, and after a long time inside it he joined the “devil” himself. So at that point just as @Emily said, he’s no longer a victim.
But sometimes we forgot and underestimate how big your past or childhood could affect your life in the future as an adult. Some people can break free from their past and problems, and some unfortunately can not break free.
My sympathy feeling is towards his rough childhood and him at the beginning of his life with scientology. He’s looking for a help in the wrong place, and Miscavige clearly knew how to use that for his own advantage.
You know, if he joined other religion (like Kabbalah for example because it seems a lot of celebs following a trend) to help him dealing with his problems, this whole mess might never happen.
They’re kids. And were bombarded with the glamour around TC along with a nasty dose of bad information. Takes a very strong mind to resist manipulation and question everything you’re told. Most people don’t have it.
Frankly, I hope Nicole feels vindicated now that all this has come to light.
I’m sure it was nothing she didn’t already know, but now it’s all over the place.
Vindicated is the right word. I hope she does feel that way. For years, you couldn’t read an article about her without several comments popping up wondering why she abandoned her children or insinuating that she simply doesn’t care for them now that she has biological children. That must have been so painful for her.
i’m with you guys.
she lost her 1st husband ‘and’ kids to that dreadful Miscavige.
but don’t cry for her, Argentina! love won out in the end for Nic though…she’s married to wonderful, sexy, talented man that worships the ground she walks on & has 2 scrumptious lil’ Strawberry Shortcake darlings with him.
what i commend her for is when she’s asked about her children in interviews she always, ALWAYS speaks about Conner & Bella ‘1st’, then Sunday Rose & Faith Margaret.
she never excludes them. they ‘are’ her children from babes, Scientology be damned!
she went through hell & came out shining on the other side. 😉
Exactly! And Nicole had to endure all the biting comments and speculation that she abandoned her children, knowing she couldn’t exonerate herself or the Cult would hit her even harder and cut off all communication with them.
And this is yet another reason I refuse to feel any pity for poor little tom cruise. He stood by and helped orchestrate a mother’s exile from her children. Someone he used to love that was his family. Unconscionable.
Ya think he might be brainwashed?? 😉
I read somewhere on Tony Ortega’s blog, that Connor was taken aside while visiting the celebrity centre and regularly told that Nicole was a sociopath. I’m sure they did the same to Isabella.
This was done by other scientologist’s, not Tom Cruise, that way he can keep his hands somewhat clean.
Interesting that they would refer to her as a “sociopath.” isn’t that a psychiatric diagnosis? As in psychiatry, that think scientologists don’t believe in?
Great point, MDID. So it’s do as we say, not as we do.
@blu, I’m glad you were able to decipher what I was trying to say. Autocorrect seemed to replace the with think. Also, I’m loving “miscavage of justice!”
plausibile deniability – TC will always say he didn’t know or had nothing to do with it but it was done with his knowledge, consent and, probably, insistence
It all sounds very Lord of the Flies to me.
But I do appreciate that he made the distinction between Tom’s CO$ experience (“he’s a parishioner”) and that of, oh say, just about everyone else (“we were employees”).
Like that explains TC’s hypocrisy and the separate set of rules he has in the CO$.
p.s. Not only is the air quality bad (fires) but now the a/c broke. I’m screwed.
Where are you, Bella? SoCal?
“I still think the philosophy has a lot to offer, but the abuses of the organization are way over the top.”
He sounds just like Paul Haggis.
And Debbie Cook.
The crux of the dispute with ex-co$ isn’t the belief system but the organization/David whathisname.
Only Lisa Marie Presley has sid belief and organization are bad…assuming we interpreted her song lyrics right.
BTW:- i read somewhere that her wake up call was due to a spell in rehab where she had one on one counselling from a psychiatrist. I hope that story is true because
a) i didn’t think co$ allowed their people to go to rehab
b) she listened to an outsider 🙂 practising something co$ believes is evil
Paul Haggis said something very telling: he said he’s in real therapy now, and for the first time ever, taking responsibility for his mistakes and becoming a better person. Auditing does not do that. It just gives people a temporary high, and they feel better and talk about “wins”, but it helps the way alcohol or drugs “help”. You feel better for the moment, but the problems are still there. You’re running away from them, fantasizing about being a spaceship captain a million years ago rather than figuring out how to fix real problems in your real life.
OKitt – NoCal – we had 4 or 5, then two of them merged. Since I live in a caldera, the smoke is coming over the mountains and settling in on us. (Sears should be here between 1 & 5.)
I’m really not comfortable with that distinction, either. It’s all very vanilla and sanitized.
We’ve got the bad air up here in Western WA too. No fires here, but from Russia???
Yup. Forest fires in Siberia. We’ve got forest fires here, too.
BC is getting smoke cover from the Colorado forest fires and, and, and, summer came!!! It’s been in the early 100’s for 5 days now. I am delirious with joy. I turned my AC on yesterday, I was worried about my cats.
Oh, Lady D, would that I had A/C right now – it’s over 100, the air is casing a rosy golden glow over everything, and the Sears guy still isn’t here yet.
ARRRRRRRRRRGHHHH! I’m ready to go sit in my car with the A/C on! 😀
Something in the milk ain’t clean
Is that a quote from the eighties movie Impulse, with Meg Tilly?
I don’t think much of Tommy, but I am glad that Marty isn’t revealing his auditing secrets. Seems honorable for a guy who is out there trying to show how despicable Co$ is.
Also, can one of Tommy’s staff who reads these pages please let him know that his lifts make his legs look weird? I mean, I know they’re not going to pass on meaningful suggestions, but how about the fact we all know he’s wearing high heels?
I totally agree with you. With as much dirt as he has he could’ve sold Tom out but he didn’t. That says a lot about the type of person he is.
I found that honorable too.
But if I were him, I’d let it be known that if the harassment and following continues, or if something happens to him or anyone he loves, a file gets emailed to the press. Safety first!
Agreed. He would lose all his credibility as an “insider” if he spilled the secrets.
Now CB has pointed this out, I can really see that David M has a total Bro crush on tiny Tom. He kicked Nicole’s ass to then crub. Hand picked Katie & was best man @ their wedding. And if I recall right supposedly went on their honeymoon. Weird much!!!
I’d say it’s more than a bro-crush.
More like a ‘I-want-to-stalk-you-obsessively-for-a-billion-years-and-get-married-with-Xenu-as-our-best-man crush’.
David M DID go on the honeymoon,Aussie Girl! Good recall. It was so weird.
Rathburn’s comments on the philosophy of scientology are surprisingly positive. I had some time with the EST Seminar group many years ago and it was the same thing – good philosophy really but run by crazy people. It was a turn off and I left.
Are we sure David and Tommy aren’t more than friends?
ETA: I’m sure this comment will be reported as “abuse” in 5…4…3
@Mort-that was the first thing I thought.
Oh, just look at the adoration on DM’s face in that second video. He’s had her all right.
They are deeply and possessively IN LUB.
If you read the post yesterday, Rathbun almost outs them.
I think they are lovers. They look like they are totally high on each other.
Actually, Scientology is a horrific philosophy, created by one of the worst excuses for a human being ever to infest the earth. I’ve read Dianetics, and it is stomach-churning, and not solely because it’s horribly written. Hubbard thought all homosexuals and disabled people were stinky (yes, really) and should be “deleted.” He also thought sympathy was a negative thing. He said women existed to be “fornicated” — and in context, that meant raped.
There are a couple good things in Scientology that Hubbard stole from elsewhere (psychology, Taoism), but he twisted them into something vile and buried them under mounds of self-serving, sociopathic garbage.
In comment to Emily, I wonder if this disabled person view is in relation to John Travolta’s son and the supposed lack of help for him. It’s so very disgusting and I can’t imagine.
@Catherine – they seem to think that all illness, especially neurological and psychiatric, is due to the body thetans and is fixable via CO$ tech. One person who left the church was epileptic and she’d have nasty seizures when following church orders not to take her meds, when she was fine and taking her meds she was told her lack of faith in CO$ tech was what was holding her back in her progression and why she still had epilepsy. I’m pretty sure I’ve read they claim they can cure non neurological disorders like asthma thru “tech” (you know, that old gulag style medicine of just sit in a quiet room and meditate until the bronchospasm stops . . . or you die of status asthmaticus – either way, we’ve cured your asthma)
@oldcranky, thank you for the information, the autism thing with JT’s son really bothered me personally since it is what my son has and I just can’t imagine someone not doing everything possible to help one they love more then anything or are at least suppose to love that much. And to think of that little child as not good enough due to CO$ beliefs is heartbreaking for me.
@ Emily – I tried to read Dianetics and felt *exactly* the same way. I found this video of Hubbard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQEbmYf6zsQ
And interestingly I actually very much agree with what he is saying here. However in Dianetics there is no trace of the human being in the video. It’s not even one particular thing or belief the book promotes (although the ones you mentioned are vile)- it’s the evil and twisted way in which it cobbles together a bit of truth with a lot of evil lies. I truly believe this man was possesed by demons dictating through him – Hubbard suddenly wrote this book in just a few days “off the top of his head”.
His fiction is ok, harmless but pretty pulp-ey – hard to believe it was written by the same dude. He does seem to have been 2 seperate people.
“Auditing is simply a one-on-one counseling technique where the auditor directs the person’s attention towards incidents in his past… so that he frees his attention to the present and he wakes up spiritually.
There’s supposed to be absolute trust in order for the process to work.”
Gee, you know what that sounds a lot like, Mr $ci? Sounds a lot like THERAPY, only with deep hypnosis and electroshock techniques employed for EVIL. Now tell me again how therapy is a bad thing, $ci-crazy? Oh, right, it’s a bad thing when it’s done out of the cult, ’cause then it does not serve your purposes, does it?
Morons, all of them.
Right? I mean its not like they use all what they found out to harass and intimidate. Nor do they use it to hold over your head so you stay within the cult. Its ridiculous.
Never thought of it that way, good point @RocketMerry
Thanks for your comment RocketMerry as the whole article kinda looks like Marty is trying to advertise himself and his book via CB.
It’s great that the commenters don’t believe his sh*t.
I believe his shit. I believe he’s still a lost soul with no ground, THANKS AGAIN TO THE CULT, but woke up to the criminal abuses of the Cult. Look at the damn video of the goonsquad with how many cameras? Like it takes four goons with six cameras to film something? It’s nothing but base level intimidation, learned on a sixth grade playground.
I don’t see where he’s decried psychiatry at all.
@gg This “lost soul” still follows the co$ doctrine, therefore he must believe that therapy is extremely harmful to a human soul.
Of course, the whole point for Hubbard to make therapy off limits was to make auditing that much more effective. You can’t really see the point in being audited if you are getting serious and professional help from a therapist: it would show you that you are being abused and that the co$ is NOT trying to help you.
Now, of course he is being harassed, and probably more than “regulars”. Miscavige does not want people “in the know” to get out safely. Does that mean he is less dangerous than Miscavige? If anything, the fact that he actually believes in the whole auditing, no-therapy, no-medications thing, REALLY believes in it, makes him more dangerous. I do hope he gets the $ci cult out of his head, eventually.
co$ is a a very perverse cult, the rotten is IN THE DOCTRINE ITSELF. And this guy is trying to advertise the co$ “doctrine”, plain and simple.
I also believe him but like he said, he still believes in some parts of Scientology. So to him Auditing is what he thinks it is rather than what we all know it is. Does that make sense?
Rocketmerry- I think he’s cherry-picking what he wants out of the cult. If he can use some of their “tech” then he can have at it and nobody will stop him as long as he doesn’t strongarm people into following his personal beliefs. I don’t think he’s doing any of the criminal misdeeds that Misgavige is doing. Nobody in my mind is more harmful than David Misgavige in this instance. So no, I disagree he’s right up there with the cult leader.
I’m not so sure he believes all their doctrines or he wouldn’t be outing everybody.
@gg – this man, Rathburn, was top 5 in co$. Just because he is singing like canary now doesn’t excuse his part in implementing co$ terrors. As he happily and very publicly admits, he was Tom Cruise’s personal co$ auditor/mentor etc at the direction of David Whatshisname. Refusing to spill Tom Cruise’s secrets still doesn’t make him honourable. The fact that he is able to beat the Squirrel busters so well is because he was part of the system that implemented their actions so he can avoid, leave , stop the harrassment more successgfully than some other rank and file person.
I see it like mafia. Just because an operative squeals to the authorities, he still needs to do his time in jail for the wrongs he committed whilst in the mafia. he may get a lenient sentence because of co-operation but he still needs to do the time.
And if he is so public about the co$ mafia, of which he was very much a part of, why isn’t he singing to the authorities. He has insider knowledge, and apparently can predict co$ moves.
The organisation is harming many people, which he is possibly very able to prove and yet, he won’t. why is that exactly??
His defection isn’t the same as Paul Haggis, who doesn’t appear to have been involved in the running of it.
Debbie Cook, has acted in a more honourable way by emailing co$ people directly to try and make them see sense.
Rathbun squealed to the press and I know he’s said he wants to talk to the FBI. I think he’s willing to do anything to take Miscavige down, even if it means jail time for himself.
That doesn’t mean I like Marty Rathbun. I don’t. He’s still peddling something I find despicable, and he doesn’t allow real discussion of Scientology on his blog. He defends L. Ron Hubbard, who was one of the scuzziest and most abusive creeps to ever live. But if Rathbun can help take Miscavige down, then he’ll have done more good than harm, so long as Rathbun doesn’t try to replace him. Without a cult leader, Scientology will disappear.
@LAK – hmm, I didn’t realize he was so high up. Other people upthread have said he was honorable, not I. I wish he’d blown the wad. His not revealing anything at all makes him a bit more suspect to me. But on the other hand, I’m sure he knows if he revealed any of Tommy’s secrets, the “cleaner” would be knocking on his door instead of four goofballs with cameras taped to their heads giving him rush week shenanigans.
I just appreciate the whistle blowing from a defector to the cult run by Misgavige and I do think it’s helping to undo the protective bandages around the co$ that have been so tight for so long.
Perhaps he isn’t “telling all” because of a little thing called a non disclosure, not because of honor.
we discussed CO$ in one of my sociology classes in undergrad and when the discussion turned to what auditing was and the anti-therapy bent of CO$, I remember asking the lecturer why they used a form of “psychotherapy” (auditing) if they were against psychotherapy. How is it they don’t see what auditing is?
Wow, this is the first time I have seen that speech, with TC saying it in his own words. Wow. Complete brainwashing, complete arrogance, complete cult. Scary stuff. I would never want to know that guy. On the other hand you really should include Jerry OConnells parody
Yeah, me too. TC and Miscavige couldn’t keep their hands off each other during that whole contrived occasion. I kept thinking Get a room, you two! And excuse the hell out of me, but Medal of VALOR? In what sense has it required valor to be an actor who is treated like royalty by the cult? Miss Cabbage is Tom’s beeotch.
hahahahh Miss Cabbage, I love it. I think that one should stick here.
Yes, scary stuff. I havent seen many things that are at this level of evilness.
I agree about adding the Jerry O’Connell parody, Roxy 750! They should also include the brief one from “Superhero Movie”..That guy was DEAD on as crazy Tom.. “Oh..I can fly!!” LOL! 🙂
And the friggin’ salute. Are you kidding me? YOU’RE NOT ACTUALLY IN THE NAVY, YOU NUTBALLS. It’s an insult to real military men and women.
“The Church of Scientology played absolutely NO ROLE”
Bullshit! lol. Do they actually expect people to buy this???? I kinda feel insulted. I know most celebs/PR/lawyers think that the average ppl are dumb, but they’re not that dumb. And I’m talking about people in the low-rent gossip rags. People in most sites? Not buying it at all. They may question Katie’s timing/motives but the one thing everyone agrees on is CO$.
The mere fact that they need it mentioned is indicative.
Do Tom COS really expect people to buy this shit? I often wonder about Isabella & Connor. They must own computers, iPhones etc. Do they read stories, comments, old interviews( even the Tom & Nicole phone tapping records). Or are they that restricted? Connor seemed to be a bit of a wild child not far back?
I think they have blocks on their computers, that filters out stuff about C0$? I saw it referenced in the comments of one of the Voice articles.
Reminds me of another cultish religion, the JWs that discourage their members from using the evil Internet. And before anyone gets offended, the JWs wreaked havoc on my family and others I know. They also practice a form of discomunication and at some point their JW “brothers & sisters” matter more than their own families. I almost lost my mom to it and I still don’t have her back 100% because she’s still in.
What are the JWs?
Jehovah’s Witnesses.
I didnt’ realize they were like that. My step grandmother was a Witness and, while I knew they don’t do holidays and birthdays, I would always send her a letter at Christmas just to say hello etc. etc., and was never acknowledged. Now I know why.
I know a $cilon. They have one mantra when people counter with all the damning information they’ve discovered about the Cult: “All those sites are wrong. they are all uninformed”. Period.
Thus they ignore absolutely anybody saying anything bad about their Cult – SPs will say negative things because they are ALL uninformed and never to be listened to. “Always attack, never defend.”
if you let them into your house, those JW are hard to remove.
@LAK – Even harder when they infiltrate your family. My mom refused to attend my child’s birthday (we had to cancel anyway due to weather) and then had the audacity to book the same venue for a JW only party. She probably paid for the whole thing too. One day I told her, you went from helping anyone in need to being all about “my congregation” as if other people don’t matter. In high school, my friend’s mother moved out of her house while my friend was out. She came home to an empty apartment with no family and nowhere to go because she had been shunned for being a bratty teenager. The JWs are not allowed to talk to her to this day, almost 20 yrs. later. She was homeless in her teenage years and both her and the sister jump from man to man. Her sister actually married a JW but left him and their child, and now she doesn’t see them at all. I could keep going with the horror stories, I have never met a “righteous” JW as they claim to be.
@bluhare – What most JWs don’t know is that they DID celebrate birthdays and holidays until about the 50s? I can’t remember exactly but these people have also falsely prophesied the end of the world numerous times. And much like the CO$, they discourage their members from digging into the religion on the “devil’s Internet”. Members must get all their info from JW texts, like Watchtower.
@blu, ahhhhhh. Jehovah Witness. I should have put my thinking cap on this morning. Pardon me if I’m a bit slow today. My parents rent to a couple that are JW and they’re always trying to invite her over or trying to get my eldest son to come over and play with their nephew. I told her they’re probably looking to convert her and she always says “well, they have another thing coming if they think they can convert me!” (she’s a Latina, and they might be even more devout than Catholic Italians). I’m a heathen, so I’m not sure if they’d consider me a lost cause or extra points (and a better place in heaven).
Ah, the JW and Christian Scientists. We would have to go to court to have medical rights taken away from the parents at CHLA often. They would not consent to lifesaving treatment for their kids, so the hospitals step in.
They’d let their child die from needing blood or cancer treatment for their beliefs.
PS-many of us Italian schooled and raised Catholics are now lapsed. Every one I know, including me and my husband, and his brother’s family. Catholic school cured me of wanting to be a Catholic, but I got a geat education.
Christian science….SMH. That’s another wacky one.
@AnnieN – i remember those watch tower texts. And the end of the world predictions……
@LAK – this one’s for you:
http://www.toilette-humor.com/funny_religious_humor/look_behind_the_curtain.shtml
@Olcranky – LOL. Loved it. Thank you:)
I love it when the JWs come by. It’s so fun to debate with them because they are so ignorant — it’s easy to trip them up. Lately some idiot JW woman has been calling my house and reading scripture on my answering machine. She uses up the entire recording time. Bitch. Last time she called and I happened to be home–I picked up the receiver and blew a rape whistle in her ear.
That’s the last call I got from that annoying c*nt.
I don’t think I know any good Catholics, lots of posers though. I was raised Catholic but the last time I went to church was for a funeral and hubby’s Jewish. The priest who performed our interfaith wedding was a software engineer by day, as he was kicked out of the church for wanting to marry. He now moonlights as a naughty priest to us Catholics who only like the loving, helping side of the religion.
My best friend in high school was Catholic. She is definitely a good person, and is still Catholic. She most definitely does not obey all the bs the Vatican has tried to shove down Catholic women’s throats. She doesn’t take bs from anyone, ever, actually.
Her first wedding also had a priest who actually talked about sex as a positive thing and central part of marriage and wonderful gift from god, distinct from reproduction. Little Lutheran-turning-atheist me was shocked, pleasantly.
I always encourage discussion with the JW’s. Then I tell them I’m either a devout Wiccan Priestess or a Satanist.
Their reaction is priceless.
And, for some reason, they never seem to want to come into my house…
@Emily – you should read this book about Sex and the Bible. It is eye openingly shocking. Who knew the bible was that smutty 🙂
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Unprotected-Texts-Bibles-Surprising-Contradictions/dp/0061725390/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1342035367&sr=8-13
@Verruca – i used to tell JW i was muslim which was another religion they had no argument prepared for. After 9/11, when everyone educated themselves on Islam, that didn’t wash anymore. I have been wondering what religion to claim so i can drive them away. Going to steal your idea 🙂
I try not to bash JWs because someone close to me is one and it seems to comfort her, which is all one can ask from a religion. Its super hokey, but she’s old and it seems most of them are. From what I know, they only have to shun you if you dedicatate yourself to their religion, but then don’t live by the rules or doctrine or whatever. If you never pretend to be one of them, no harm no foul & no $$. Anyone who abandons their family is just a shitty person, no matter what their religion.
Co$ sounds like an abusive stalker boyfriend that takes your money after he cuts you off from the rest of your life.
LAK, try that or Atheist. Wiccan is akin to devil worship to them and you’ll get the standard Evangelical creationist argument about atheism.
@Emily, by “good Catholics” I mean people that follow everything to a t. I remember a time when we weren’t allowed to read the bible and mass was in Latin (no, I’m not that old). My grandma was one of the last good Catholics I knew and that got her 14+ kids! :O
aww too much crazy to talk about.
I’m just wondering about the “celebrity requirement. I don’t see that it is working. I mean I don’t know much, but it seems that they have not really brought in any new celebrities. The only celebrities I see in Scientology are the ones that we have seen for YEARs. Unless they are hiding it. But I don’t see that Tom or John, Kirstie, or the others have brought in any new celebrity meat so to speak. If anything I think all the media focus will make people less likely to join.
Dear God, Miscavige must be a midget, he’s way shorter than Tom. Short man syndrome maybe?
…and TC surely loves standing beside THAT. i noticed that as well.
it seems pretty clear that TC’s got something sad in his past (abusive dad, then joining a seminary? i smell a rat, and i think he was abused in the worst way). So now that his deepest secrets are known, this Miscavige predator goes for the jugular, and keeps TC living scared – which is so counter to the front that TC portrays – its all very interesting to me. Other CB threads on the subject show commenters who seem to know that Miscavige has shamed TC at Co$ parties by actually showing clips of TC’s audit sessions, etc. CULT BULLY 101. dang.
I agree with you on all counts. I’ve been researching scientology for years. Always thought that was the case. There are two good documentaries on youtube, one on CO$ in general with celebrities and CO$ higher-ups actually speaking about the “religion” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wnsh8V1H9SU&feature=bf_next&list=PLE6F5F6C2C3CBFCDA (1 or 2 parts have been taken down, I’m linking the 2nd segment, 1st one is currently missing) and the other on TC, his upbringing and allegiance to CO$ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg761d-WxQQ (this one keeps being taken down quite often, watch if you have the chance. it’s in french, with subtitles).
I’ve been reading Rathbun’s blog for a few days now. Although I don’t trust him entirely, he certainly has the best insight into what is really going on.
BTW, something interesting I found there:
It’s not just DM who is abusive. Tommy is a mini-me, according to Rathbun. Read this letter from Rathbun to Fields, TC’s lawyer. It says people were victims of his abuse as well. (Can someone tell me if this came out in the media at the time?)
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2009/08/26/top-gun-and-hired-gun-put-on-notice/
Edit: and for those who are really keen, the whyweprotest thread on it with further info. https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/marty-rathbuns-letter-to-tom-cruises-attorney.45759/
Makes sense, power can corrupt some people and for someone like Tom who seems to crave control and obedience he likely adored being given that amount of control over others.
Let’s face it he exercised as much control over Katie as he could but he could never really take it to another level for fear of her being photographed with bruises or something.
Obviously I can’t say for certain, but sadly it wouldn’t surprise me.
Riana: I wondered the same thing when I read the extent of Cruise’s control over her. It says he didn’t trust her (obviously!!), but I wondered if it escalated. You can beat someone up so it doesn’t show when you’re dressed.
sarahtonin – thanx for these posts! but after reading Mark’s letter to Burt Fields, are you really still skeptical of his motivations? to me he sounds pretty grounded & honest, AND he’s got balls of steel (which i like, but not on jerks like TC – hahaha!)
Interesting. Someone posted a link above to an article at ABC, and in it TC talks about how he was bullied, and how he hates bullies. Looks like he has become what he hated so much as a kid.
Here’s the link again, BTW:
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/tom-cruise-katie-holmes-upbringings-torn/story?id=16742057
@Riana: Doesn’t surprise me either, we always think of him like this but it’s great to have a witness say it.
@Stinky: I don’t entirely trust him because:
(a) He wasn’t just a clam, he was head of RTC. But he was a victim too and he’s making up for some of it by divulging info so it works for me, for now.
(b) He is still a scientologist (freezone)
(c) He clearly has an agenda but we only assume it is just to ruin DM/Co$. That’s my agenda too, but considering all the evil f-ckery OSA is capable of, best to keep back far enough to see the whole picture, you know?
Best to reserve judgement. Or maybe my tinfoil is too tight. 😉
@Izzy: Thanks for the link. Victim becomes abuser. Standard practice.
Ewww.
That is all.
He’s such a creepy little man …im happy for katie …one can only imagine what went on behind closed doors in their home ..no matter what they say ,the damage is done and people are beginning to see scientology for the evil religion it is..a part of me wishes they had gone to court ,I would have loved to hear the dirt katie has on tom
I KNEW Miscavige/CO$ forced Tom’s hand in settling! Too many fires on too many fronts to attempt to contain them all, so let’s just put this one out now, yeah?
Wouldn’t surprise me one teeny bit to learn that some of CO$’ “war chest funds” *ahem* FOUND their way into Katie’s bank accounts.
Oh definitely. It has been said that CO$ will do ANYTHING to make this PR nightmare go away.
I think Katie made it clear that her priority was Suri first and then walking away with the money that she rightfully earned. I’m sure she got a HEFTY bonus from CO$ on top of that, so good for her.
The cult has got the means (stolen $$$$$$$) to do ANYTHING IT WANTS. And I mean ANYTHING.
I do not think however that the Cult needed to pay off Katie. Rumplemintz has plenty of his own cash to do that.
Miscavige beats everyone up? He’s about five foot nothing and skinny too – I’m suprised someone doesn’t just sit on him. He certainly seems to have a million psychological issues and is most likely a repressed homosexual. Allegedly he followed Tom and Katie around on their honeymoon like a leech. Creepy!
Fanatacism combined with insanity can make almost super-human strength. Remember also that this is their highest church official. Not that I think the pope abuses people, but if he did he would most likely get away with it too.
The other $cilon zombies just stand there and watch because to them, he’s their little hitler and can have worse things done to them by his goons with a wave of his hand.
This all reminds me of J. Edgar Hoover and his obsession with everybody else being gay and using that against them, when he himself was questionable on that front. Highly questionable.
In doing so, they set back gay rights decades, which is sad, doing that to their own kind and using it as ammunition.
I like to call him TH, Tiny Hitler.
Alternately, huge ass*ole.
On the (ex)Scientology blogs they often refer to him as “Slappy” or “McSlappy” or some variation. It’s funny.
Well, look how muscular Tom Cruise is. He’s shorter than me by a good few inches, but he could probably kick my ass anyway. Miscavige is a mental mess, but he looks like a physically healthy and strong guy. Plus — ever been hit by a toddler? When you can’t fight back, someone can hurt you, no matter how much bigger you are than them.
the people he beats up are emotionally cowed by him and let him beat them. It’s part of their submission to the church
I thought I’d read (a few years ago) that DM also forces others to beat those he feels need a good thrashing. It’s seen as a testament of faith and loyalty to DM/CO$
@ Emily – yep, Tom is quite small but I’ve ALWAYS got the impression that he could REALLY beat your ass and do serious damage. Not only is he muscular but he’s just got such a harsh controlling vibe about him. DM I’ve noticed has a really hard, insane look in his eyes which probably explains it.
Wow, there is so much wrong with this that I don’t even know where to begin.
Tom was out, noticed they stalked him for a year and then went back, he’s a frakin idiot and gets none of my sympathy..
And I think ole DM needs some heavy auditing, cause that seems to be a bit more than a bro-crush, but I guess the rules don’t apply to him or TC right?
I remember in pics published of Connor’s last birthday, there was a smallish boy standing next to him. At the time I wondered if it was Miscavige’s son or a relative since they looked alike.
David Miscavige has no children and his wife hasn’t been seen since 2006. She apparently filled job positions without consulting him and disappeared. Her name has also been removed from “church” boards that she was a member of previously. Rumor has it she was sent to the Gold Base for “reeducation”. Scary.
Aka. She’s taking a dirt nap.
Tommy Davis is said to have disappeared as well. I’m glad, that guy was a little punk like Miscavige.
Mort – And conveniently, he can have her legally declared dead after 7 years, thus inheriting all her worldly possessions.
Convenient, no?
@mayamae
Are you saying Tommy Davis has recently disappeared, too??? Because that would be huge news/chum to the media and a blow to CO$. Do you remember where you saw that info? I’d love to read about his disappearance and what rationalization CO$ is using for it.
Tommy Davis disappearance isn’t being talked about by co$. It is mentioned as an aside on various anti-co$ blogs.
Might be like David Whathisname’s wife whose disappearance wasn’t discussed for a very long time.
Heber Jentzsch, the President of CO$, is MIA as well (in the hole). His 27-year old son died and the boy’s mother had to find out about it via FB. CO$ won’t have a memorial for him b/c they’d have to make Jentzsch available (more importantly, they’d have to tell Jentzsch his son died)
I look at Tom in a completely different light now. I was always able to separate the man from the religion, but I can’t make that distinction now. Don’t think I can watch another Cruise flick. He’s just too nutty.
it would be ironic if in first Holmes goes to Batman movie premiere because it seems Cruise wasn’t able to bear she travels with Batman Begins team
And remember Turtle Dove, you pay $$ to go see the movie – a percentage of that goes to TC and part of that ends up in the cults clutches.
I think it is unfair to single out Tom Cruise films.
Here is a list of other co$ that also need to be boycotted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scientologists
http://www.adherents.com/largecom/fam_scientologist.html/
ps:- the 2nd list is more comprehensive, but also includes those who rejected co$ and of course needs to be updated to rremove Katie from it.
Interesting link. Tom really is the shining star among those listed.
Too Funny, LAK, I posted the same link in the other thread a few hours ago. Great minds and all…
LAK, I only made reference to TC because Turtle Dove mentioned his movies.
I’m one of those people whose opinion is forever changed when I find out an actor/singer is a cult member.
Rest assured, NONE of them get any $$$ from me!!!
@Originaltiffany – great minds indeed. Lol.
I had a back and forth conversation with another poster on CB a few weeks ago, before the divorce. They were strongly of the view that they would always support these people because they were artists!!!!
still SMH about it.
on a different note, i remembered yesterday that Brad Pitt used to date Juliet Lewis who is a co$, not sure if she grew up in it or was converted and i wondered if he had ever flirted with it…..guess what, he is on the list of those who did just that.
I have wondered if True Blood is written/produced by people in Co$. Some of the show’s plotlines involving themes of mental health care, medical care, religion, drugs and alcohol, mainstream forms of therapy and social work…
@XOxoXO- since co$ targets the successful in Hollywood, it wouldn’t surprise if that production had co$ members on it.
Catherine Bell, Jeffrey Tambor and Dave Davies? Really?! I knew a lot of names that were on that list were in (it does need to be updated for those who blew) but those name surprised me.
BTW – Earthlink is owned by CO$ members so, if you feel strongly (or want your privacy protected if you have the audacity to say anything unflattering about the church) you may want to find another ISP.
@olcranky – I wasn’t aware of that. i just googled ‘list of scientologists’ Thanks for the tip and i will remove all cookies from my computer right now.
@olcranky – i had another look at the co$ list from wiki. I am surprised to find Peaches Geldof on the list. Who knew? but i also loved this description of one Reed Slatkin – Criminal Ponzi scheme perpetrator.
I recently listened to the WTF podcast with Jeffrey Tambor, and Marc asked him about COS and he said he tried it briefly but then left, it wasn’t for him. He didn’t seem all that eager to discuss it, but long story short, he is not a Scientologist.
This one is ridiculously comprehensive and updated regularly:
http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=69963
Bones fans might want to ctrl+f Daley…
Which begs the question:
Can you make a real religion and system of beliefs out of a fake religion crafted to fool and control the masses?
I keep hearing people, defend or compliment an aspect of Scientology and it makes me wonder whether people are so afraid to believe in God (or whatever deity you choose) that when someone offers up belief in ANYTHING with aol imaginary guarantee of it making this chaotic world make perfect sense and a guarantee into some blessed future they just suction cup themselves to it.
The man sounds intelligent, yes, but the history behind Scientology is open-and-shut.
It was never intended to provide any good and never came from a place of faith or betterment. It is intact, the closest thing to a daily mocking of any religion. The fact he still practices (what I’m sure are good old common sense ways of viewing the world and dealing with it) any aspect of Scientology makes me nervous.
Why would it make you nervous-because you don’t understand it? If it works for him then it works for him, just like any personal belief system or faith. Remember that both religion and cults alike are open to corruption from power-hungry people. However, his personal beliefs are just that-*personal* and if it helps him cope with life then who are we to judge? He’s not imposing his belief system on others nor is he exploiting the beliefs of others for personal gain. In fact, it seems like he’s putting a lot on the line by exposing a lot of the atrocities that CO$ perpetuates.
I think the CO$ cult is as suspect as everyone else does but I draw the line at judging people based on what they believe. Live and let live.
The problem with religion for people like me as a whole is how eager they were in the past to prossecute non-believers, and catholicism, cristianity as a whole and islam have been guilty of that practice in the past (well, not getting into certain aspects of the present of islam because I don’t want to turn it into a religious debate). You get my point. Inquisitions, burning at the stake, executions. I know that if there was time travel to 1500, that would be my fate, or comform, and very quietly. The other religions may have been guilty of that in the “past”, but this is 2012. Not condoning shady present tactics, or church abuse, etcetc.
But in all of those, you can leave the religion (well in some by leaving the country). I left the one I grew up in. But CO$? Wired fences, armed guards? harrassment? Keeping people as literal prisoners is inacceptable. That’s called removing people’s civil liberties, removing their freedom. And in the USA, no less. They have no legal power to do so yet get away with it. Plus slave labor. That’s what’s freaky.
And I don’t get why any celebrity, who relies in public image, would want themselves associated with that.
To clarify it makes me nervous because as far as I’ve read and seen Scientology has no basis in reality.
Its a feel-good/sound-good piece that’s ultimately built to prey upon the weaknesses of humans and exploit them. Any other religion as far as I know, no matter region or culture is crafted to create inner strength but Scientology is built to break humans down, make them helpless and cling to the organization which in turn uses them, harms them, robs them and then grows stronger ultimately so they can do it again and worse ( see other Scientologists that have come forward).
My question was posed entirely on the belief that what he is practicing now is likely common sense approach to life with no immediate spiritual deity (unless he still believes in Xenu) and wrapping that under the name of Scientology.
Can you admit you were following the teachings of a cult in one breath and then say you continue to follow it privately in another?
Cults are designed to give the illusion they ‘make sense’ it’s how they lure people in, how far are you still from your mental demons of you still subscribe to those teachings individually?
@Kitten – You said it before I did. Should have read your comment first 🙂 Btw, got motivated and left a long response to your comment on yesterday’s post.
Oh thanks, Mira! I’ll have to check it out. I kind of ran away after I posted because I know this topic is so sensitive plus I sort of hate doing “posts” about that issue-it’s just easier to have a free-form discussion in person.
“So, God can be anything you want to make or believe in. People find faith in many things, not necessarily in a deity or by praying. If something does not fall in majority opinion, it’s always seen as deviant irrespective of it is or not.”
Damn, you said it so much better than I could have 🙂
@Kitten – “I kind of ran away after I posted because I know this topic is so sensitive plus I sort of hate doing “posts” about that issue-it’s just easier to have a free-form discussion in person.”
True. I’ve been hesitant in stating my opinions because the topic is so damn sensitive. But, I cannot stay away because I’m curious about what everyone has to say.
Alcoholics think alcohol works for them.
I’ve seen people get wonderful things from religion. But those religions, though based on some things I do not personally believe in, are not based on outright lies and defamation. You can be Jewish or Wiccan or Baptist or Catholic or Buddhist or pagan or etc. and still take care of your mental and physical health outside the religion. You can learn about the universe and your place in it from anywhere you choose.
You cannot do that with Scientology. In Scientology, psychiatry is the root of all evil — the better to keep people from getting real help and learning about how the human mind actually works. In Scientology, you aren’t allowed to learn anything from anyone but them. When a group of any kind tells you, “we are the only ones with the truth, do not expose yourself to anyone but us,” they are doing it so they can control you.
Emily – Who are we to say that people who believe in Sci do not experience wonderful things? You and I haven’t practiced it. Our opinion of it is based on primarily what’s available on internet. For ex, if you tell E.Moss (Peggy) that she cannot experience anything from Sci “as a fact,” you will be offending her big time.
What we can say or debate is the rights and wrongs of Sci just like we do with mainstream religions. Perhaps all this discussion/protest may force the church to renounce all/some of the atrocious/inhuman practices. Or it can lead to the end of CO$. There are both these probabilities including many other.
The point LAK, Kitten and I are trying to make is Rathbun and ex-members of CO$ are not challenging/questioning/renouncing the philosophy/teachings of Scientology. They are protesting against its tyrannical leader DM. Also, Rathbun talks about revising some tenants/practices of Sci or something to that extent. What does this mean?
Riana – I’m very sorry for getting your name wrong. Just realized 🙂
I don’t particularly care about offending people. When people who believe in lies get offended because I say, “those are lies,” that is not my problem. I don’t care why they believe those lies.
Scientology is lies based on lies based on lies. People may “experience” wonderful things — big whoop, people experience wonderful things from all sorts of stuff. It doesn’t mean it’s good for them. And it certainly is not scientifically proven, which Scientology claims it is. There are no such things as engrams, period.
Everything I know about Scientology I don’t only know from the internet. Not that there would be anything wrong with that, considering “the internet” isn’t just gossip blogs and comment sections. Jstor is “the internet” too. But I have read Dianetics and other stuff L. Ron Hubbard crapped out.
I have also read the Bible, the Koran, the Talmud and other Jewish texts, a whole bunch of Hindu texts, lots of Buddhist stuff, Taoist stuff, Wiccan stuff, voodoo stuff, pagan stuff, ancient Egyptian religious stuff, on and on. Many of them for classes in which said texts and the cultures that produced them were discussed. All of them have good things in them. Not Scientology. It is the manipulative lies of an abusive madman who did everything he did for money and control.
Emily – I did not question or doubt your knowledge. It’s amazing that you have read the texts of mainstream religions. Yes, jstor is internet too but how many people have access or time to read journal articles. I have unlimited access to most restricted web journals and I dig through them almost every day for my research work. Anyway, these points are irrelevant.
I love what you said – you are not scared to offend people. That’s kind of a revolutionary attitude 🙂 It reminded me of Steve Job’s remark on Obama that he’s reluctant to offend people.
I’m not defending Scientology, I’m just saying it’s futile or it can be futile to question someone about their faith, especially faith. What you call lies can be their truth. How do you then separate the lie from truth?
Of course you can smoke pot, get high and experience any damn thing. Is living on pot/drugs good for people? No. (I’m was just borrowing your argument) My question however is how do you convince people that only things that are scientifically proven are right or true?
It’s not just about mainstream religions having good stuff in them versus CO$ having bad stuff. L.Ron set the ball rolling and some people bought it. Once this gains momentum, interpretations of the text will keep changing unless there is an external force like the government deciding to ban it. What I’m saying is, it’s a dynamic process, it’s not static. Perceptions and interpretations of the text are revised through time. If it attracts a reasonable number of people, there is potential that whatever the text says becomes their faith or truth. At this point it is difficult to question/challenge the philosophy (definitely not impossible). You can however question/challenge the organization or leadership ways of the group easily.
I was recently reminded, all religions meet the definition of the word cult it’s just that over time and due to the increased mobility of people and exposure to people who are different, most main stream religions have dropped the more overt controlling aspects of how the church handled things. Shunning by the Puritans and excommunication by the churchback in the day was the same sort of thing as being declared SP and disconnection is in CO$
@mira —
I don’t think things that can only be scientifically proven are right or good. I don’t think love can be scientifically proven, for instance.
But when something claims that it has been scientifically proven when it has not, when the things it claims are “science” are actually lies dreamed up by an abusive piece of filth, that’s when it’s time to take apart those lies.
For instance, Scientology claims to help marriages, but in fact Scientologists have a ludicrously high divorce rate, far higher than that of the general population.
When your religion claims that sympathy is a weakness and the way to communicate with people is to manipulate them — well, I don’t know if those things can be scientifically disproven. But they are ethically despicable.
Scientology did not start out as a religion. It started out as a fraudulent self-help book by a science fiction author who lied and lied and lied some more. The “engrams” he claimed exist do not exist.
The entire philosophy of Scientology is extraordinarily abusive and cruel, and Scientologists claim it has been scientifically proven, but it has not, and it actually goes against what we know about how the human mind works. This is a fact, and there is no getting around it.
No one can scientifically prove of disprove God or Hera or other religious entities. When someone starts saying, “I can scientifically prove the existence of Zeus!”, then I’ll deal with that. But then again, the ancient Greek religion also had some good things about it. Scientology has nothing good about it.
Finally, as Jason Beghe said, “show me a motherf*ing clear.” Scientology claims it can give people superpowers. That is a scientific claim that can be and actually has been tested. The so-called “clear” does not exist, and no Scientologist has any superpowers.
@Emily – I don’t know if you’ll come back and see my response. I’m writing one nevertheless.
My biggest problem with the anti-CO$ argument is underestimating/questioning the thinking capacity or intelligence of 40,000 (don’t know if this is the latest statistics) odd people who chose this as their faith, to tell them what they have chosen is wrong. If they are wrong, they should come to that conclusion based on their own judgement, which they will. At least that is what the ex-members have done.
Second, I’ll not get into the ethics argument you raised because that’s like opening a pandorax’s box with regards to all religions.
Third, if all the problems that you have raised is factual or practiced in the CO$, then it’s only a matter of time that it will implode from within. There’s no need for external intervention.
That brings me to the point I made earlier – what do you have to say about Rathbun continuing to be an independent Scientologist but opposing DM’s leadership? Will you say that Rathbun is an idiot because according to your argument, the basic tenants/philosophy of Scientology is wrong. He, however, is not attacking that. His problem is organizational, not philosophical.
@Raina – There are several approaches to understand religion/ethnicity. One of the dominant one is instrumentalist/constructed approach, which posits that religion/ethnicity is not primordial but created by man and there’s a reason for it, which I won’t go into. In that sense there is no such thing as “real religion” and “fake religion.” There are multiple truths, not just an absolute truth. I’ll say this because I’m a post-modernist.
So, God can be anything you want to make or believe in. People find faith in many things, not necessarily in a deity or by praying. If something does not fall in majority opinion, it’s always seen as deviant irrespective of it is or not. If Cruise has found any form of healing in it, then we are no one judge him or question his faith. You know, suicide-bombers are also “brainwashed” and “indoctrinated” and there is considerable research on how and why someone can be brainwashed to an extent to blow themselves up. There’s nothing peculiar about Cruise’s faith in Scientology. I’ll go ahead and say this – if there’s anything peculiar and/or fascinating, it’s the public’s scrutiny and/or fascination of Cruise, his faith, his crazy etc.
True but regardless of the past of any religion there’s an aspect we need to focus on: this is a cult.
One can find healing in any area and I hope people are comforted.
But cults are designed to give the illusion of comfort while ultimately harming the individual who follows them.
Look at what Scientology does to a celebrity family let alone the thousands of individuals who will not have the benefit of millions of dollars or media attention.
Scientology was entirely designed to prey on how people perceive religion, whatever religion it may be, warp and manipulate these people.
It seems like it’s teaching are honestly in direct mocking of it’s followers, this is one area where you can not separate the teachings from the practices as all are geared towards the same goal:’money? Power? Control?
Who freaking knows.
@Raina – You should separate Scientology, it’s philosophy from it’s leadership. The ex-members who are now ganging up against CO$ are unhappy about DM’s leadership. At least, Rathbun is.
I’ll not get into the cult/religion debate. Every organized group/movement is designed to achieve its aims, whether or not they are morally correct. You cannot quantify mass participation after a point. Till date there are papers written about how and why so many people participated in the Rwandan genocide. There is no clear answer. So, yes, people get enticed/duped/attracted to the “power of illusion” you mentioned. And as we are typing in our comments, we are all being manipulated by the media. Tom’s couch jumping incident may or may not prove his crazy, but it definitely highlights the power of media in forming opinions for people.
Mira-your post from yesterday is fascinating. I am having serious “education-envy”–I would LOVE to be in a class where people are discussing this.
And I cannot agree with you more about media shaping people’s perceptions.
Pre TomKat divorce-I used to never click on Suri/TK posts because I couldn’t stand the way people talked about her. They called her a “little monster”, “spoiled brat”, “evil”, “creepy” etc etc. IMO, it’s just so inherently wrong to talk that way about a CHILD. On top of that, the prevailing view of Katie was that she was a souless robot with no mind of her own, a cult tragedy and a sh*tty mother.
Once this scandal hit and the media and Katie’s genius PR team started trumpeting her as the “heroine who escaped from the evil cult” then there was a COMPLETE 180 in people’s perception.
Example: when Katie would carry Suri around she got SO MUCH sh*t. I used to say that I would do the same thing if the Paps were attacking me and my child-it always seemed like a protective stance, but others said it was because Suri is “spoiled and lazy” and that Scientologists carry their kids all the time etc etc. Post TomKat divorce-the comments again changed COMPLETELY-all of a sudden everyone was defending the fact that Katie carries Suri around (“Suri is scared!” “Katie is shielding her from paps!”). Again, complete 180 at the behest of the media’s portrayal of Katie, spoon-fed to the public.
@Kitten – It’s exactly like the brilliant comment someone made on CB, that Katie gave our imagination a shovel to dig Tom’s grave 🙂 That explained everything in one line. Katie didn’t speak a word but her team sent out the CO$ story knowing very well that it would corner Tom. I’m not supporting Tom or condemning Katie. In fact, I’m mighty impressed by Katie. But it’s just to say how after a point popular opinions catch on among people, irrespective of who the target is. However, the hate/protest for Tom on internet is at a different level. That is what fascinates me. Why him? What about him? It can easily be said the protest is against Cruise and then CO$, in that order.
I just read a comment on another website condemning JT and Kelly for the death of their son Jett. I don’t know the story; I have to look up the details. However, if it’s true that JT and Kelly refused medical aid because Sci denounces medication, isn’t it a more serious issue? This alone can bring CO$ down because its teaching cost the life of a boy. I’m amazed that JT and Kelly weren’t held accountable for negligence. Again, I’m making this argument based on the comment. I am yet to read about the incident.
Coming back, yeah, our discussion was on mostly on how to understand the hate/protest/vitriol for Tom especially on internet. Oh, don’t even bother about life in grad school. It’s a choice that most of us question every day until we graduate, hopefully 🙂 This was just an isolated incident. It happens like once in million thetan years (is that even right?) 🙂
Completely agree that there seems to be more vitriol for Tom than for CO$ (although there’s plenty directed at CO$ as well). Personally, I see any member of a cult as a victim and I extend this line of thinking to Cruise. Never been a fan of his but he never appeared like a particularly terrible human being to me, just someone who is very insecure and lost.
Wow..I NEVER heard that story about JT/Kelly Preston and his son.
Just found this:
http://www.showbizspy.com/article/192241/john-travolta-refused-medical-aid-for-son.html
Awfully sad if it’s true..
Grad school is something I seriously considered for a few years but gave up out of mostly laziness 🙂
My BF went to Wharton and Harvard for two masters and I was just listening to him talk about having lunch with different political figures like Jeb Bush and the McCain campaign manager when he was at Harvard. Between all the off-the-cuff comments he was privy to, I got pretty damn jealous! Higher education has its perks and I have no doubt that the hassles you endure now will be well worth it down the line 🙂
@Kitten – Wicked! Your BF is from Wharton and Harvard 🙂 I say suck it out from him, I mean information/arguments/sundry. I’m as cynical as Humphrey Bogart is in Casablanca. So I always dismiss the “well worth it down the line” notion. That’s also because academia is as bureaucratic/political as the State Department 🙂
Thanks for the JT link. It does not mention CO$ beliefs influenced JT’s decision in any way. I was surprised because the comment linked CO$ and Jett’s death. That makes for a criminal charge against the chruch and also against JT, right?
@Mira-Yup, Harvard & Wharton and he is MUCH smarter and MUCH richer than I’ll ever be 😉
Education aside, he is an excellent debater, always has been but higher ed and being in a competitive academic environment really sharpened his skills.
I’m a cynic by nature myself, but trust me when I tell you that Bachelors degrees are the new high school diplomas-everyone has one. Any edge you can get in this economy is HUGE so hang in there! 🙂
RE: the link-weird that CO$ was omitted but that seems to be rather common- almost like the C/B post about how the media may be changing the way they portray Scientology-“religion” vs “cult”. The silence that so much of the media has in regards to CO$ makes me wonder if it’s fear-driven or if it’s just an attempt to seem unbiased? CO$ is very quick to levy the “RELIGIOUS DISCRIMINATION!” on the public and media alike, I would bet that they have lawyers that are just waiting to pounce.
@Kitten – Best wishes to your dude (can I say that?) and you. I’ll drink some beer and cheer for you 🙂
I’m surprised about the reaction to Jett’s death if indeed JT kept him away from medical aid because of CO$’ BS on medicine. That incident should have bought the cult down, no? Not this divorce. While religious differences will not be considered to grant Katie sole legal custody of Suri, she will definitely get it if she can prove that the religion is harmful to the child physically or mentally. Extending that to Jett’s case, clearly CO$’s beliefs and his parents’ adhering to that belief cost him his life. Why weren’t they (CO$, JT and Kelly) charged for culpable homicide?
About the lack of coverage of CO$ by mainstream media – it’s a sum of all probabilities I guess. Intimidation, threat by CO$ and/or no substantial proof to expose the cult other than testimonies by ex-members, lack of government action or perhaps the FBI is still in the process of gathering material required to challenge the cult (which is religion for its followers). This incident may (or may not) pressurize the govt to act or deal with the church on the alleged human right violations. However, it is my view that it’ll take time to revoke the church status and ban it completely.
@OriginalKitten: I never knew what to make of Katie, or TomKat, or Suri. You know what made me respect Katie a little? When they unveiled Suri in Vanity Fair. (OK, Midget Man gets a VERY SMALL amount of props as well, since he was part of that decision. But I’m not willing to give him much. Everything else is just too icky or weird.)
First, I liked that they wanted to shelter little Suri for just a bit from the media storm. I keep thinking of photos we’ve seen of Charlize Theron’s baby boy – he looks positively horrified at the press. It’s actually kind of funny, but it makes me wonder how overwhelming it must be for a baby.
During the article, Katie is quoted on the matter of all the crazy rumors: “And the stuff they said about Suri?! You shouldn’t say that about us, and you can’t say that about my child. As a mother, you hear it and it’s just not O.K.”
I liked her “momma bear protecting her cub” stance. I don’t have any children, but I imagine most mothers would feel the need to stand up for their children under those extreme circumstances. I guess the divorce was another example of that mom instinct kicking in, to protect Suri from Xenu and his merry band of Thetans.
@Rianna – When you look at the history of Christianity, it was considered a cult in it’s early form until the Emperor Constantine was converted and made it the official religion of Rome.
If not for that, we would be worshipping roman/greek/pagan gods rather than thinking of them as mythology to entertain us in cinema and books.
Over time, the practices of the church were abhorrently against the belief system until the people rebelled.
Now if you see co$ as a religion, then ex-co$ people like Rathburn and Haggis and cook are going through the same thing because they are highlighting the evils of the organisation whilst staying true to the belief system.
btw:- i am really glad that Rathburn is speaking out. Now as he happily tells his part in the reeling in of Cruise, will we see a public apology to Kidman i wonder.
ITA, LAK.
I think one majorly defining factor with any relationship, small scale interpersonal relationships or larger scale religious choices is whether you are encouraged/encouraging someone to think for themselves and learning to hear and follow and trust inner guidance or truth, or whether you are taught and trained/teaching and training to discount inner truth and obey what is being dictated externally to suit someone else and their version of your reality.
The basic human need to discover ourselves and learn to live comfortably in our own skin and mind is manipulated and molded to fit the distorted reality and needs of COS.
Instead of using knowledge gained to set someone free to live their lives with more freedom and integrity, they use those doubts and fears and vulnerabilities to chain them to the church and in effect make their worlds smaller and more fearful.
If this is an individuals desire or pathology, they will find it effectively in factions of Judaism, Catholicism, Buddhism, Wicca, New age thinking, Atheism etc..there are segments of people in every religion/belief system who use whatever purity may be found in that belief system to serve distorted purpose and serve to elevate themselves and separate themselves from others.
I don’t doubt that there are elements of truth and universal spirituality in Scientology, there is enough innate wisdom in everyone that there would have to be something that appeals to the sanity within.
I’ve read some of their literature and there is actually a lot of things that resonated as truth for me so I can understand some of the initial hooks. But I also think that there has to be something terribly broken in the people who go the whole route with COS and never question the path enough to research and make choices.
It seems like an extended abusive family and probably attracts many who come from extreme abuse who find comfort in the known.
This is a direct result of someone trying to fill a void in their life. Lifting up a stalker cult leader? It’s just evil and disgusting no matter how you look at it.
ps-what a fake, brown-nosing award just to make a pathetic loser feel better about himself for 5 seconds.
All of this has just exposed how utterly stupid Tom Cruise is to be involved in a science fiction book cult. Katie must be mortified now that she looks back to have ever become involved with TM and his band of star wars characters.
True, he now looks less-than-bright and someone who was taken advantage of and brainwashed by a cult.
Closest comparison in terms of religious concern would be if someone very calmly and eloquently stated.
“This is what’s wrong with the flying spaghetti monster religion as a whole, but I still practice individually from time to time”
You’d be backing up slowly and looking for any exit, that’s how I feel about every person even loosely associated with Scientology. It’s all just too creepy.
An atheist would have the same reaction to all religions.
If you think about it critically, all religions are asking you to believe in something that doesn’t exist. it doesn’t matter how you dress it up.
So if someone believes in fairies vs multiple gods vs pagan gods vs aliens vs one god it still amounts to man’s desire to believe in something bigger than themselves in order to make sense of this world.
“Something that doesn’t exist” ? Maybe to you. I think you mean it is not visually of this world. There are those of us who do believe there is more to the Universe than what we see physically with our mortal eyeballs, and have many personal experiences to back up our beliefs.
Forcing people to believe things, and weakening them to the point that they’ll take in anything is simple abuse of the human mind/body. This is abuse, not religion/spirituality, and it’s human-based.
“An atheist would have the same reaction to all religions.
If you think about it critically, all religions are asking you to believe in something that doesn’t exist. it doesn’t matter how you dress it up.”
EXACTLY.
@GG-to an atheist it DOESN’T exist. That is exactly LAK’s point. To you it might, to me it doesn’t. That’s not a way of denegrating your beliefs-it’s just the fundamental difference between an atheist and a religious person.
And just because I may not believe in things that I “can’t see with my mortal eyeballs” doesn’t make me any less of a thoughtful or caring person than you or anyone else.
For me, my parents are my God(s)-they provided me with what your GOD provides for you-unconditional love, respect for others, tools to cope with sadness and grief and a love for this earth and my friends and family. I don’t want for more than that nor do I require an explanation for all of life’s mysteries.
You’re misreading me Kitten. I never ever insinuated you were any less of a caring, genuine person, and I honestly don’t think that of atheists at all. I do not judge atheists any more than I judge another religion I am not part of.
I am judging the c0$ however, based on their criminal activities and abuses.
I am going to reiterate that I am not here to discuss my personal spiritual beliefs or debate “religion”, or judge anybody’s spiritual beliefs or the belief they don’t need one. To each their own.
That’s EXACTLY what the co$ wants us to do – argue amongst ourselves, thus handing them their “see? all religions are goofy and fairy tale, so don’t pick on us” argument.
I agree, GG. I hesitate myself and comment way less often than inclined about religious matters PRECISELY because it can get so dice-y and I’m always paranoid about offending others. And of course we’re good people-we’re C/B’ers! 😉
@gg -the original comment from @Rhiana was that being asked to believe in alien like dieties would make her run as fast as possible in the other direction because it seems such as insane notion.
Without judging her belief system or morals etc i was pointing out that to an atheist, that’s how all religions/cults and their practitioners are viewed. Plus to an atheist, there is no ‘other’ something to believe in.
As for your second point, what you fail to see is that all these co$ defectors are not denouncing their faith in co$. They are denouncing the organisation of their faith. Read the post above again. Rathburn states quite clearly that he is still a co$ practitioner. Ditto Paul Haggis in his famous interview, ditto Debbie Cook in her email to all the co$ members.
So if david whatshisname were to go to jail, and another kinder, more respectful person headed up the church and stopped the horrendous practices, would Rathburn rejoin?
@gg/LAK/Kitten – I’m late for this discussion; nevertheless I want to butt in. It’s my opinion that both LAK and gg are right. I said before to Raina that there are multiple truths and not just one absolute truth. I’m not saying ‘your perception is your reality.’ No. For LAK and Kitten (and me), the higher power does not exist because it cannot be proven scientifically (what an irony that it’s called scientology) or because it doesn’t make sense “rationally” or that everything can be sourced back to man as his creation. Everything is constructed for us.
You are also right about seeing/believing beyond the physical. I’ll now say something that may offend you, but please know that this comes from theoretical discussions we have in classroom. It’s not necessarily right. It’s an assumption you can challenge. Here goes – just like the physical construction of the world, our imaginations, thoughts, and collective beliefs is also constructed in our mind. There is nothing irrational about it because there are different kinds of rationality – one you can prove in physical form and one you can feel but does not exist in physical form. For example, norms such as family honor, status, nationality etc are all constructed by us, the people. Why does someone kill for the ‘honor’ of his/her family? We cannot see honor but because there is a very strong feeling of it. Through socialization and inter-subjective (collective) acceptance/practice of norms, they become as real as the things we can see and feel.
Sorry about going on and on…it’s too tempting a topic/discussion for me not butt in 🙂
Exactly
Perfectly stated, Mira.
I was recently discussing religion with a close friend of mine and knowing that I am an atheist, he asked “Well what if I told you that I’ve seen things, experienced things that have brought me closer to God? What if I told you I’ve seen God?”
I said “…and? I don’t doubt that you perceive that you’ve seen God. I also don’t doubt that your perceived experience has greatly influenced your life. This is your truth, your personal experience.”
But the same goes both ways-as real as his perception and experience is to him, my experience, my TRUTH if you will, is as wholly specific to my life and my identity. Just understand that one person’s perception or experience, as convincing of its existence is to the believer, it’s non-existence is as equally convincing to the non-believer.
@ Mira – There is also the idea of indoctrination which most people reject except when it pertains to cults. The examples you have given are brilliant. Alot of what we think we believe that is nonetheless intangible is a direct result of indoctrination from society in the form of family, schools, churches and community.
Many Agnostics can’t quite give up the idea of an ‘other’ precisely because they grew up in a situation where they were told that the ‘other’ existed and they must take it on faith that ‘other’ exists. As they have grown to think about it rationally, they have rejected most of what they have been told, but not entirely because the indoctrination runs too deep.
@Originalkitten – i am with you with regards living. I hold that they really believe that they have had those experiences and that’s what works for them. I hope they are as understanding of my POV too.
@Kitten – My state of mind right now is, to hell with our (my) analysis. MK is the man. The genius. He is my absolute truth 😉
@LAK – ITA on all points. Indoctrination comes in several forms like you mentioned from family, school, community, and then there is also organized/premeditated indoctrination that cults like CO$ engage in. Only we call our (society in general) indoctrination as ‘social condition’ or ‘socialization’ or ‘conditioning.’
“Forcing people to believe things, and weakening them to the point that they’ll take in anything is simple abuse of the human mind/body. This is abuse, not religion/spirituality, and it’s human-based.”
There are many sects even in the mainstream religions that believe that suffering is an enlightened path to heaven.
Someone mentioned suicide bombers amongst the muslims, Opus dei within Catholism. Some people starve themselves calling it fasting for periods at a time because they believe it will give them greater spiritual access etc.
They may not be in a hole whilst doing it, but they have been brainwashed into believing it and happily participate in it. So who’s to say what they are doing isn’t harmful?
LAK, OriginalKitten, mira, et al. – I see you, I feel you and I appreciate your insights. I think we’re actually reading off bits of the same page here.
I just don’t want to dilute any of the concentrated vitriol going on right now, reserved specially for the co$ and hand it out to anybody else at the moment.
The keyword being: Choice. (instead of coercion and breaking down of will). I can say I sure am glad we don’t live in the 1100s. Holy shit. Literally.
@LAK-Well that’s the difficult part, right? When I told my friend that I didn’t doubt that he perceived to have seen God, he was offended, “No I didn’t PERCEIVE to have seen this. I SAW it.”
Well if I didn’t see it, if only HE saw it, then it’s a perception.
Perception by definition is becoming aware of something through senses. It’s much more abstract, not true reality, or at the very minimum not a shared perception. It’s not the same as holding an apple in front of me and saying “do you see this?”
@originalkitten – what gets me about religious people of all stripes, is the offense they take if you sound less than convinced of their experiences and perception. And yet, on the otherhand they are intolerant of your POV and perception.
@LAK – that’s a generalization I don’t agree with. People of “all” religious stripes do not do that. I do not do that, for example; and don’t paint intolerance on everybody. You’re letting your contempt for religion color your reason.
@gg- I think your own postings prove my point.
When i posted initially about what atheists believe or not believe in, you were offended enough to correct me.
When i say that in my experience religious people are offended that i do not share their perceptions you do it again. With added caveat that it’s my contempt for religion that colours my reasoning.
You do not hesitation to make a judgement on my views.
Yes, the problem must be with me.
Nice try. You didn’t say that. You said, “what gets me about religious people of all stripes, is the offense they take if you sound less than convinced of their experiences and perception. And yet, on the otherhand they are intolerant of your POV and perception.” and I called you out on it. It’s untrue.
BS obfuscation of your comment I’m referring to. My views display nothing of the kind. It’s clear you’re only using what started out as a reasonable discussion to condemn religion in general.
THAT, my dear, is intolerance.
I do not judge anybody for what they believe or don’t believe. Period.
@gg – now you are judging my intent???
so if i don’t agree with you i am contemptous? and hiding my intent to condemn all religion in this thread??
Please read your own words!!
The fact that you can not tolerate that i may be an atheist and was quick to interpret my statement as a personal attack on YOUR beliefs even though i said no such thing neither do i know what religion you are shows exactly which one of us is showing religious intolerance.
You know what – I’m not going to argue with you any more on this. It’s not worth it.
Have a good one.
An atheist would have the same reaction to all religions.
No. Absolutely not. You are wrong.
Signed,
an atheist
of course, as any Pastafarian will tell you, there is nothing sinister about the flying spaghetti monster
can I get a rAmen for that?
I figure if this monster hangs out with the Vodkasauce monster, we have yum.
rumor has it, he regularly bathes with vodkasauce
:: stomach growls :: 😆
WOW. I am sitting here wiping tears from my face, I’m laughing that hard. AWESOME. You gals really know how to use your noodles.
Miscavige must be darn close to midget size. he’s so much smaller than Tom who is only 5’7″ so that would probably put Miscavige at 5″ max! wow. talk about short man syndrome. no wonder he’s obsessed with all this power.
I completely agree – ig’s a case of double short guy syndrome!
I think it depends how high Tom’s lifts are that day!!!
Wow, watching that video of TC’s speech reallh shows you how delusional he is. I predict a spectacular end for him.
If he thinks “resolving” the divorce quickly made it look better, it didn’t. Who the heck gets divorced one week after filing?
I do think there is an element of repressed sexuality here, on the part of Misgrave and poss TC……
Tom has let this cult destroy not one, but two of his families. It’s pretty sad to choose a cult over your spouse or child, but that’s what he’s done.
Actually, its destroyed 3. Even though he & Mimi Rogers didn’t have children, they were married and a family unit. Its sad, if you choose to have a family, that is the most far reaching legacy you can have, not fame, fortune, or your devotion to some self-gratifying, controlling cult.
or maybe he marriage isn’t for him. He should give it up rather than take down others with him.
There’s a Miscavige interview on YouTube and I attempted to watch it last night on my iPad. I was propped up in bed, and before I knew it, it was 7 am and the iPad was at my side. David Miscavige was so freaking boring that I fell asleep during the first 10 minutes. So, if anyone’s an insomniac, look it up. It’s from a 1992 Nightline with Ted Koppel.
I do have my theories on why he wants Tom so much.
And if I were Marty, I’d get myself a good guard dog.
I’ve watched that entire lengthy video several times for some research on co$ and it is blatant that both Cruise and Miscavige are completely “in love” with each other. And the more I watch it, the more they seem to drool over each other, especially Miscavige over Cruise. That Miscavige was obsessed with Tom comes as no surprise, but I truly don’t think it was all because he wanted to be part of Cruise’s lifestyle. I think he genuinely wanted to get into Tommy’s skinny jeans. Another interesting tidbit: in the video, when he’s awarding the medal, you can clearly see that Miscavige is wearing the flattest shoes he could find, while Tommy is wearing his high heels, as usual. Trust me, even if nothing ever happened between the two, it wasn’t for lack of wanting.
OK, I just watched that and holy crow, they are even more nuts than I thought. And yes, it did look like Miscavige has a bit of friendly interest in Cruise. And what’s with the saluting? Puh-leeze.
I love how they harp on psychiatry. As if anyone is truly going to understand how the brain works. So he mocks the words chemical imbalance but we’re supposed to believe in thetans and Xenu? The bottom line is psychiatry is a very imperfect science. Still, I’d rather be in the hands of a competent psychiatrist any day over these nuts who blindly follow a sci-fi writer.
+1
A true sign of a cult is the control aspect of its members. Right down to dictating what kind of medical care is deemed appropriate etc.
For example, Jett Travolta may be still alive today if it wasn’t for CO$ . He was never properly diagnosed or treated.
Miscavige has played Tom perfectly. No wonder he’s the COB (Chairman of the Board – aren’t I getting good at Co$ speak!!). He’s always fawned over Tom, and even though Tom is basically a “parishioner”, he’s playing the role of #2 in the organization.
The whole military style of award-giving and saluting and the grovelling of the unwashed Co$ masses, the adulation and freedom to have Co$ workers making his life perfect wherever he goes, plays directly into Cruise’s overarching ego and self-adulation.
He’s always been a conceited little bugger and totally taken with himself, and Miscavige has totally ingratiated himself into Tom’s life by playing the sycophant.
Tommmy-boy, you’ve been had – I sincerely hope you manage to disentangle yourself from this piece of sh*t Miscavige and learn to live a normal life before you ruin anyone else’s.
I’m tired of people saying that Tom was blindsided, and Katie made her great escape,etc. Everything in TC’s life is planned to perfection via COS. Didn’t anyone else see that US Weekly spread a few weeks ago about how great Tom Cruise is? I was flipping thru my copy and I came across a two page spread where actors gave anecdotes about how great TC is. I thought, how strange, a bunch of people adoring TC for no reason. Then not long after the divorce was announced. That article was planted by COS and TC pubs to soften his image. He was not blindsided.
Was that article in US printed around the time ‘Rock of Ages’ was released?
If so, it would have probably made sense for promoting the movie.
If CoS is so powerful, what happened? I’m confused.
If Katie was a CoS pick for Tom’s bride, what happened?
If CoS is so powerful how did they let Suri go?
They screwed up. They think they can control everybody they want. But they can’t, obviously. Thankfully there are still freethinkers around.
I am not an attorney but I find it hard to believe they are legally divorced already. Even though they’ve come to an agreement, doesn’t it have to be approved by a judge? Experts – please fill me in.
I wondered that as well. Are you considered legally divorced before it’s final? I would think not, or else there wouldnt’ be a waiting period.
No, you cannot have an instant divorce. There is a short waiting period before you go before the judge, who officially signs a Divorce Decree and as it says on the bottom of the decree the marriage is declared null and void as of that date the Decree is signed.
from: http://newsandinsight.thomsonreuters.com/New_York/Insight/2011/05_-_May/No-Fault_Divorce_Finally_Comes_to_New_York/
“The unilateral nature of DRL 170(7) represents a fundamental departure from the existing law that, to date, was the closest to no-fault that one could come in New York: the execution of a separation agreement and the conversion of that agreement into a divorce after a one-year waiting period. By definition, such an agreement was only possible with the consent of both spouses. Moreover, the new no-fault law essentially halves the waiting period, by requiring that the “irretrievability” of the breakdown be in existence for only six months, as opposed to one year. ”
So as I read it, they still have six months.
@gg and Bluhair-no, it is final upon the judge signing the order, which in an uncontested case like this is probably within 45 days. The 6 month period refers to what happened before the complaint or petition is filed.
Okay. But 45 days = waiting period, ergo, no instant divorce.
Those “squirrel busters” guys are aptly named because they are nuts
I know, right???
Of course Tom loves Miscavige…he is one of the only men on the planet that is shorter than Tom! Perhaps this way of thinking is also responsible for Travolta’s “friends” being fat and balding 🙂
If that were true, he’d be drooling over Danny DiVito! But Jeremy Renner isn’t tall either, is he? They’re supposed to be boning.
Those squirrel busters are the most dorkiest thing I have ever seen in my life.
And they think they are so scawy. Baahhhahahaha!
I’m wondering if Rathbun has sufficient security for himself. I have a nagging feeling the CO$ isn’t quietly ignorning his whistle-blowing. Kudos to him for exposing the cult but at the expense of being a martyr…I just don’t know. {sips tea}
Why are Tom and David saluting each other at this ceremony???? They are not soldiers in the military. They have not earned that right!!!
David is a sociopath who should be arrested and incarcerated for crimes against humanity; in particular against children for serf-wage labor and girls who are forced to have abortions against their wills.
Why are the FBI or CIA not on this?!?
Nicole had to endure all the biting comments and speculation that she abandoned her children, knowing she couldn’t exonerate herself or the Cult would hit her even harder and cut off all communication with them.
————-
I still wonder about Nicole and why she allowed it to happen. Yes, Cos worked on the kids, telling them their mother was a sociopath and evil, but when she saw the estrangement happening, why didn’t she go in with guns blazing threatening the cult with what she knows about them and threatening court? As a Mom of two myself, I just can’t understand allowing your children to be essentially brainwashed into hating you. There’s a law against Parental Alienation. I could not have been an instant thing…surely she could see the kids pulling away? Why didn’t she ask them about why they were doing that or take them to a pyschologist when they were with her? I still think that Cos had stuff on her that she was scared would come out and that was why she just accepted what happened.
Read up on the Cult and see their “coertion” techniques. They are nasty. If a bunch of people are forbidding you from contact with your teenagers, and holding them and brainwashing them, what are you gonna do about it? Guns blazing? Not going to happen. They have massive security.
Also, at that time, Tom had more star power and the CO$ was still “underground” as far as to the level and intensity of their scare tactics and violent behavior.
Kidman may have kept her mouth shut simply because she was fearful of what they might to her, Connor or Isabella.
She’d also been audited while she was sorta/kinda with Scientology and no doubt Co$ threatened to release the audiotapes and bring down her career if she didn’t relinquish a certain amount of parental care. I’m sure she shared private information that would have tarnished her squeaky clean image and embarrassed her in front of her children so she caved. The separation from Bella and Connor was subtle too – it didn’t happen overnight, it was a gradual process as they were inculcated further and further into Co$.
Miscaviage is a closet homosexual and Tom Cruise is his girlfriend. A blind item said Nicole Kidman once came home early from a trip and wasn’t let in to her own house while Cruise entertained men. I’m guessing that’s what “movie nights” mean in their parlance…
Grown men in squirrel outfits…do they have any idea how stupid and silly they look?
Here’s the link to an article about Marty Rathbuns squirrel problem:
http://www.texasmonthly.com/cms/printthis.php?file=letterfrominglesideonthebay.php&issue=2012-02-01
They actually rented a house 150 yards away so they could stalk him. I’d love to have seen them the day Martys neighbour turned the sprinklers on them!!!
Is anyone else reminded of that movie The Talented Mr. Ripley? With Miscavige in Matt Damon’s role and Tom in Jude Law’s. I’m just waiting for Miscavige to turn on Tom.
Now THAT is a brilliant comparison!!!
Miscavige doesn’t just obsess over Tom Cruise – he wants to BE him!!
(BTW, love that movie)
What an interesting idea.
I could totally see him turning on Tom at some point. If he is as obsessed with him as it seems, he has put all sorts of expectations and such on Tom and their relationship, and someday if Tom does something he doesn’t like…scary.
@ Loulou: I would totally believe that!
FREAKS!
Wonder if these two have boned.
Why is TC so hellbent on continuing on with Scientology??? Why can’t he see what dangerous criminals they truly are? His own auditor defected…the president of the cult has “disappeared”. What the hell, TC?!? Cut your losses and regain some credibility.
My son and his wife have had to go into drug rehab.
They were searching for a place that could take them, and my son was looking into Narconon.
He asked my opinion, and I told him to RUN away from them as fast as he could. He had NO idea they are part of Scientology.
They did find a place to take them, but I am so happy he called me before he called Narconon. From what I have been reading in the past few weeks, drug addiction might be the least of their problems if they got caught up in Co$.
I am so happy to hear you steered them away from Narconon! It’s deadly.
Best wishes for their health and success in a legitimate program.
Whenever I am considering donating anything, be it money or clothing, I always do serious research into the organization, because no way am I going to support anything to do with the Cult.
I suggest everybody do this with every organization you are considering doing anything with, ESPECIALLY help organizations. The co$ disguises themselves and their influence very carefully and they try to infiltrate everything.
So please be careful! 🙂
I’ve recently become enthralled in reading about Co$ since Katie filed for divorce. The more I read, the worse it gets. If you want to learn of one of the many of David Miscavige’s evil deeds, look up Lisa McPherson. They held her in a hotel room for 17 days after she had a psychotic break from exhaustion. She never left that hotel room alive. She was tortured. One ex-member stated that Lisa was not the only one. He was responsible for another woman that was being held at the hotel and said if he had not forced her to drink water, he knows she would have died. Co$ also has a facility called RPF where they send members to be punished for doing or saying anything negative about the Church. Co$ calls it “Rehabilitation”. They are worked 12-18 hours a day, 7 days a week for $5 a week pay. They are also only allowed 6 hours of sleep MAXIMUM every night. This one ex-member could only describe why he stayed with Co$ for 21 years as a comparison as to why abused women stay with their abusers for years, leave and go back, leave and go back again. Scientology needs to be stopped. It is a severe disservice to human kind.
-Ah, the JW and Christian Scientists. We would have to go to court to have medical rights taken away from the parents at CHLA often. They would not consent to lifesaving treatment for their kids, so the hospitals step in.
They’d let their child die from needing blood or cancer treatment for their beliefs.-
This is bullshit. I was raised as a JW and both sides of my parents families are all JW, my brother is still a JW. I left when I was 13 and most of them have cut me off, wouldn’t attended my wedding and have never seen my children. Suits me fine as I do not associate with dickheads and am raising my children in the Methodist faith with an agnostic husband. However, the blood transfusion and cancer treatment thing you said is flat out untrue. There are medical alternatives like blood expanders and other procedures that are permissible and cancer treatment has never been banned, unless there are a few congregations that accept this I am not are of. It’s not a doctrine by their faith.
I do not support that religion in any way other than it is free to exist and say dumb shit. Be careful when making absolute statements when you are not sure of them as it makes you just as bad as they are for spreading misinformation. JW are not allowing their children to die by denying medical care. I would assume folks take that to the extreme in some situations as people in any defined group will do.
I think you didn’t read most of that thread.
It was a discussion about cult like behaviours from main stream religions talking mostly about JW. She brought in Christian Science but perhaps should have differentiated better so you see that it was the latter religion she was talking about with regards the Blood transfusions and cancer treatments or any kind of medical intervention. That is an absolute doctrine in CS sect.
I’m not seeing the line drawn in the thread, maybe the Devil is playing poker on the internet or something. *kidding*
It’s also untrue that JW are not allowed to use the internet. They have a JW website and a goofy dating site. Jeez y’all. Criticize them for real stuff, the birthday and holiday stuff is true and oh so dumb to me. Bogging people down in the minutia is a pretty common tacit any cult will use. The disfellowshiping or disconnection stuff is true as well and one of the worst offenses. When a person is at their lowest spiritually, they’re kicked out, shunned whatever you would like to call it. That’s pretty far from the Jesus I know who sought the sinner and spent respectful time with women in the atmosphere of men who treated women as property and without consideration. Jesus spoke of service to your whole community, not just the pious and righteous. As a matter of fact- “Mark 2.17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” I’m not looking to preach or convert, just quoting the Bible reference since I’ve had to remind my Mom of the words from the actual Bible instead of the Watchtower from time to time. It’s cool to play that game with the JWs in my family that still speak to me, the I-Can-Quote-The-Bible-Too game.
Both of my brothers have been disfellowshiped and it been a horrific experience for their relationship with God. My Jesus is a kind man, offering forgiveness and instructs me to follow his example of self service to everyone. I do not know their version of Jesus, or rather do not accept that vindictive mess. I found a whole church full of loving people who head out on the weekends to patch roofs in the neighborhood and do not blink at a gay couple in the pew.
I don’t care if you worship snails or think your bath tub is God. When you start screwing up other folks with the poison you picked as truth, be it atheism, Islam or whatever, then you need to sit down and hush. Not one person breathing knows for certain what happens after we die so it’s all running at the mouth until we croak, to be honest.
…..but Lindsay, how can you say Islam or atheism is poison???
They believe what they believe as fervently as you believe what you believe.
As you say, we don’t know what happens after death, so best thing to do is to be good to each other rather than oneupman each other as to who has the better diety/religion.
You’ve never heard the term -pick your poison? I meant whatever poison you pick as the truth, be it atheism, Islam, Christianity whatever. No need to raise a hairy eyeball.
it’s a perfectly groomed hairy eyeball 🙂
That Freedom of Valour video was freakin’ insane!
And if Tommy is 5 foot 6, Miscavige is what? 5 foot 4? Oh my gosh, we are dealing with two tiny despots here with massive small man syndrome.
Oh god, this whole thing is such a bloody mess. Those photos of Tom on set made me weep for humanity.
The dude’s gone from married to divorced in, like, two weeks, and there he is trying to keep it together like some badass.
Gosh, if I were Tom, I’d be taking a year off and reassessing. But I guess he’s in waaaaaaaay too deep for that.
How have we come to this? How in gods name is all this stuff allowed to go on in 2012?
Katie is doing the same. She looks anything but someone who has just gone through a divorce.
The man is in the middle of shooting a production worth $100M. he can’t hide. He maybe pressured from co$ but the studios wouldn’t look to kindly to him blowing this off either. That’s another reason why Katie timed the divorce this way. He was/is stuck on a film set and can’t bully her in person.
That said, we haven’t seen him for a week. reports said he was in Cali and yet no pictures until he was back on set.
Who is to say he wasn’t holed up in NYC this whole time? This isn’t a preposterous suggestion. Katie let people think co$ vehicles were following her last week when infact those were her new bodyguards.
Smoke and mirrors people!!
On one hand, I feel bad for Tom. It sounds like he has very much been brainwashed by Co$. On the other hand, I think Tom was brainwashed because they fed his ego in all the right places. It seems that Tom already was being consumed by fame when Scientology got their hands on him and they just made it worse. It seems he got better for awhile after he married Nicole. I actually like some of his movies from that time period such as Interview with the Vampire and Magnolia. I seriously think he was at his peak when he was with Nicole and he was an idiot for throwing that relationship away.
I think Tom is a sad sight now and I think the divorce from Katie is the beginning of the end for him. The public began giving Tom the side-eye when he divorced Nicole and in my experience public good will is only going to go so far. Between his courtship antics with Katie, the anti-psychotropic rants and Scientology, I think Tom has fostered a lot of ill will with the public. People want to root for celebrities that they believe are honest and forthright. Tom’s legitimacy has been questioned one too many times. He’s finished in Hollywood.
On another note, I think a lot of celebrities connected with Scientology are going to have a hard time finding work in the near future. I see a certain blackballing process happening similar to Joe McCarthy in the 1950s. I think the media and Hollywood in general has had enough of Scientology’s presence.
He was already huge star by the time co$ sank their hooks into him.
It’s amazing that apparently kidman had succeeded or nearly succeeded in weaning him off the co$ tit.
I think you are right about public perception, but i also think as Lainey says, if he listens to his professional rather than his co$ advisors, he will turn this ship around. Most of the stories have been around co$ and not Tom. I personally think he is an overbearing controlling rumplestilskin which is always there whether he is with co$ or not. Some people will assume he is redeemed if he either gives up co$ or they aren’t reminded of it.
Never underestimate the public’s desire for a redemption story. Look what it has done for Katie in 10days no less.
With Hollywood, it’s only ever about money. If he continues to bring in the money, they will overlook anything. We have seen that time and time again – see also Woody Allen and Roman Polanski.
@LeeLoo – It’s not a chicken/egg problem. You need both conditions or variables to exist to brainwash people. Parallel Tom’s situation to the brainwashing that happens in mainstream religions for achieving their goals. They do not recruit just about anyone. It’s premeditated. They reach out to vulnerable people, poor people, people who hold angst or people seeking vengeance against another religion or the state etc. They look for a fertile ground and once they spot the target, they go all out to recruit them. Tom was what DM or CO$ was looking for because Tom himself was looking for something.
LAK – LOL! We posted at the same time 🙂
@Mira – i am starting to feel as though in trying to have a philosophical rational discussion, we may be appearing to defend Tom Cruise or co$ because people can’t see past it to all the other issues around this situation.
LAK – ITA. I’ve consciously tried to put across my points more softly [that’s what I think :)]. We are separating philosophy from it’s people. It’s possible that we’ll come across as defending CO$ and Cruise. However, our discussion has nothing to do with taking a position. And if it comes to taking a position, it’s clear (hopefully) that we are against the cult.
Damn! Huge Kudos to our Celebitchy writers!!! You guys make Clark Kent look like mud pie- you gather your info/leads and go to TOWN! LOVE IT!
Ahhh, young lovers…these two should just get it over already and F***K! Sexual tension I haven’t seen since Moonlighting! Notice how MisCav is SHORTER than Tommy? You KNOW it’s real love. Yes, I can agree somewhat w/ others, I think Tommy’s been severly brainwashed and w/ special treatment as well. It’s sad, “A Mind/Sanity is a Terrible Thing to Waste” never rang more true.
BS- Me smells a bull and some s**t. It was the foundation for this divorce! What else? What else came to surface? Money? No. Affairs? Apparently not. Psyhical/verbal abuse? Well, it had to have been abuse for Katie each time Tommy opened his mouth but still…No. Drugs/alcohol? No.
Katie is savin’ her bay-bee!!!
I want to hear these auditing tapes- what if someone burglard the CO$ and got hold of all these tapes with celebrity secrets? I’m lickin’ my chops at the thought of it!
But seriously, 1.) Have we heard any public support for Tom since this divorce debacle? Other than CO$ 2.) If folks collectively ban going to TC movies, this is going to negatively impact his career/studio favorite HUGELY (come on guys, we can do this! Boyott TC Films! I have for years…..3.) What GOOD has CO$ actually done for society? Most, ALL churches are very vocal about the good they do for humanity…what, if anything, has CO$ EVER done in support of anyone/anything else?
And that’s shameful
Yes, he has received public support. From Paramount. Universal and Warner Bros.
Honestly all this does is renew my fascination with Nicole and Tom’s marriage. I know everyone always talks about a contract and whatever but I don’t think so. They didn’t even have a prenup if I remember correctly and he was already a huge star when they married.
This also says a lot more about why Nicole was so blindsided. I have a lot more sympathy for her than Katie who went in eyes wide open. If he had been out for nine of the ten years of their marriage I wonder if Nicole even knew how hard they were dragging him back. If she didn’t, he was probably already gone before she even realized she was supposed to be fighting COS. I remember reading something one time that Nicole said when Tom dropped the divorce on her out of the blue it was like overnight he became a different person than the man she knew. You combine that with the shock and emotional trauma of the miscarriage right after and I’ve always though the fact that Nicole did the best she could should be a triumph for her even if she didn’t ‘win’ like Katie did. Katie had a lot more advantages in her corner.
excellent point, and a really sad one.
we all know CO$ destroys families and some weather divorce because it unravels over time, but imagine your spouse is lovey/happy one day, every day, and then BOOM, wakes up and divorces you.
if this is indeed what tom did, what a crass fool, a fool 100% – regardless your religion, YOU should always be in charge of YOUR life and the fact that tom can’t quite grasp the concept that even freaking TODDLERS can (“I want my binky! NOW) is sadly pathetic, Fool…
I’ve always had mucho respect for nicole, always class act, and thats hard to do in hollywood, specially as a female..
as they say “God helps those who help themselves” and Tom clearly does not believe in God!
“Xenu….helps those who pay the big bucks!”
Lila, you are spot on! Yes, Nicole, way back then when co$ (cannot capitalize this money/blood-sucking CULT) was BIG & POWERFUL, operating at full speed ahead under the radar of the consciousness of America…..she didn’t stand a chance IN HELL.
Yes, Katie got w/him when he was a full-fledged scientolobot…she knew what she was dealing with straight out the gate.
One other point to bring up. Does anyone notice in all the videos of Tom C., or really ANY scientolobot, how they are talking about co$, & they speak in GLITTERING GENERALITIES, are DRAMATIC, talking about “getting the job done,” and “cleaning up this place,” BUT YET…they never really specify exactly what they are talking about and how they’re going to go about it. That’s one of the “things” that really yanks at me about this ridiculous cult, and how people can be such SUCKERS for it.
Me, personally, I’m kind of curious, and if I don’t know much about something, I’m gonna ask many questions. If I don’t get clear, concise answers, then I know someone/somebody is trying to “pull one over me,” and to me, it is patently clear and obvious that this CULT appeals at a base, emotional level….not too much damn science in scientology.
For the life of me, I’ll never understand really how they got so BIG for a long while. They say a great deal…about NOTHING.
@Kimbob – I mentioned your comment below but just want to say here since you said it more eloquently than me that I agree with you. I watched the videos and I hear the same thing all this “getting the job done”, etc. but nothing about what they actually do. The only thing I concluded regarding that joke of the year award (the freedom of valor one) is that he is being rewarded for being the most dedicated cult member not that he did anything concrete to help humanity. But just know this he cares very, very, very much for them. That is weird in itself because any church I have ever been to it is always inclusive of all of “God’s people” not just the ones sitting in that room.
yeah…that struck me as well, good call. i just remember “clean this place up” and i thought, huh….what’s gone down here then? it sounded v. president-win-election “and I Obama, promise to clean America up! bring back jobs…” or a union leader “we’ll clean up Ford Motor co., better benefits!”
….? what do you all need to clean up? a bloody crime scene?
@TG…yeah…you’re right! The Medal of Valor for being the most dedicated member. They probably came up w/that “honor” because Tom’s donated probably MILLIONS to them. Yeah, definitely a “made up” award.
@erika…you’re cracking me up! And that’s what I thought, as well….clean up WHAT?! He didn’t say! I think really, as far-fetched as it may sound, I think Tom C’s referring to “cleaning up the whole world” which is absurd in and of itself. No specificity….a bunch o’ dumbasses.
@gg…I agree w/your observation, too. I think he knew that marriage to Katie was all kinds of wrong not far into it. Problem is, he’s already had 2 divorces, & another blogger pointed out far above how co$ goes on and on @ their “celebrity centre” about how scientology “repairs relationships” & “remarkably improves communication between couples,” so…..I don’t think he was looking forward or relishing too much the abject truth that he was staring down the barrel of DIVORCE #3…LOL!
Yes, very sad. Forewarned is forearmed. It’s a shame Nicole was SP’d like that. But I’m doubly glad it didn’t happen twice.
And I think he knew there was trouble in the marriage with Katie, but ignored it.
Lila – Also remember that Nicole was in it for 10+ years, not 5. That makes her 23, if that, when they got involved. Plus she was a genuine novice in the American acting game. AND, her family was on another continent.
Katie was 4 or 5 years older than Nicole; she had already established her US acting career; her family was 2K miles (if that) away; plus she had the benefit (however dubious) of having seen (or at least heard) what Tom did to Nicole and their kids.
Nicole was 22 if my math is correct and fresh off the boat. Katie was 27.
ITA with all of that. The biggest difference between them for me is the eyes-wide-open factor. Nicole got involved with Tom new to America and at a time before Scientology was publicly talked about much. Katie was already in Hollywood on Dawson’s Creek when the Nicole/Tom split happened. From what I remember that divorce was even bigger and more extensively covered than this one because it wasn’t a quickie settlement plus there was the miscarriage drama. By the time Katie married Tom there had already been several books written about Scientology and the debate about it’s cult status was already widespread.
Tom apparently pretty much left Scientology for most of his marriage to Nicole. She was never that deeply involved with it on a day to day basis from everything that I’ve read and nothing like the way he lives it today. When Katie married Tom it was a huge part of his life and Katie seemed to dive right in. All the monitoring and auditing and the COS guards/friends all started before they married and she still went through with it. I will always remember that quote about how marrying Tom Cruise was what she’d dreamed about as a little girl.
That’s the main reason Nicole gets my sympathy in a way that Katie never has. Honestly this feeling that everyone needs to fistpump for Katie just bugs me. I believe it when I read that Nicole got blindsided and never knew what hit her and fought as best she could. Katie on the other hand knew.
maybe miscavige is the only truly right partner for tom. no woman will be able to compete.
A truer statement I’ve never heard…LOL! Seriously, looking at that video Celebitchy provided, the one where he’s getting his Freedom/Valor whatever medal (again, what is that for, & what/how exactly did he “earn” such?!), it’s SO OBVIOUS those two (Cruise and Miscavige) ARE IN LOVE W/EACH OTHER….they only have eyes for each other.
Watching that video gave me the creeps! I’ve seen both videos before, but the way this one was edited….it shows the mutual adoration….ugh….two lovebirds definitely. Come out of the closet already.
-huh…..me thinks something fishy going on between them two
Oh yeah! You know, I think it’s admirable when gay couples are “out there” & up-front about their relationships, but there’s something really cheesy, & downright GREASY when seeing two guys that obviously have “love in their eyes” for each other…trying to play “the straight-man card,” ya know?
Cruise is a total victim and Miscavige is Satan himself. If Cruise has any sanity left, he”ll get the hell out of COS.
Cruise is a total victim and Miscavige is Satan himself. If Cruise has any sanity left, he”ll get out of COS ASAP!
Now that Katie is out of the picture, Tom & Miscavige can elope and run off into the sunset together. I think the rumors about Miscavige’s beating people is a symptom of his severely repressed homosexuality. . . .
Is everyone in the Co$ cult secretly gay? The two tommys and now miscavige, and all the rest? Why do they need to build an entire cult around hiding their sexuality?
I would be interested to know if DM has some sort of medical disorder affecting his brain or if it’s just psychological problems alone.
@gg – Not related to your comment but I really wanted to share this bit of news. Daily Mail says Xenu is very angry about Katie’s conduct (regarding divorce) and feels betrayed by her meticulous planning even as she professed her love to him. This betrayal has now turned into anger. As per Daily Mail, Katie is in for a long battle with Xenu. The article claims their settlement is a sham because Xenu will erupt like an Volcano and take Suri no matter what the settlement says. Xenu will spend his $250 million wealth to its last cent. The battle lines are drawn. It’s scary but also funny! Maybe because I’m picturing the scene of Xenu Volcano taking Suri away.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2172221/Tom-Cruise-Katie-Holmess-amicable-divorce-sham-actor-plans-daughter-Suri-Scientology.html
What are Katie’s options? Go underground with Suri?
DM has asthma, I know that. Hypoxic brain injury from not taking ventolin? Who knows.
As for TC giving up that easily, I don’t buy it either. I think he’s going to get sneaky as f-ck and indoctrinate her on the sly. Bet he tries to persuade the nanny first, then they can work together. Let’s just hope the nanny isn’t a tommy fan.
—–GAY COUPLE ALERT! —
Tom Cruise is ‘closet’ gay…what if…Miscavige is gay (would explain his wife’s ‘absence’) and they’re IN LURVE!!!
Seriously!!! OMG! I just cracked the case! Cruise IS gay! Miscavige is his LOVER!
explains cruise’s withdrawal (struggles w/ feelings for MisC), MisC is ‘obsessed’ w/ getting tom back, Tom comes back to church, bye bye Nicole, their love intensifies, bye bye MisC’s wife….
they keep their love private from the public but…behind CO$ doors, Anything Goes!!!
It’s seriously…not a far fetched idea…..
Honestly, I think you’re exactly right. There seems to be an inordinate amount of gays w/in the co$ (looking at YOU, Travolta), & I think it’s because of co$’s alleged anti-gay stance & how they ridiculously claim they can “cure” being gay.
I think the closet case’s have flocked to co$ like a swarm of locusts because they feel they’re protected like Teflon, due to the co$’s stance on such. I think all of us can now look back in co$ history and membership & it’s just so blatantly obvious.
Most people think that already. It’s clearly not a normal heterosexual relationship. We think DM is TC’s manwife (or vice versa). What best man goes on the honeymoon after all?
I do think it’s a serious possibility that TC and DM are an on/off gay couple and have been for a long time. All the signs would point to it. DM is honestly the only person I’ve ever seen Tom act remotely natural around – google pics of them. I’ve never seen Tom act like that around ANY woman.
Then again it’s also a real possibility that they both want to but don’t act out on it because they actually believe the Scientology doctrine that homosexuals are the least evolved people on the planet and are all going straight to hell.
Perhaps DM’s wife knew he was “out 2D” with Tommygirl and that’s why he had her disappeared? I assume even thinking would be an infraction.
[Out 2d: Co$ Ethics stuff meaning your ethics are out due to illegal or immoral sex, as per Co$ standards. eg having sex out of wedlock, adultery, homosexuality etc. It’s a very serious “crime” that would get you sent to RPF]
Okay, so I just watched that piece on Tomm girl accepting his “Freedom Medal of Valor” (Ugh) and I just watched the portion of that creap miscaving introduce tommygirl and explain what the award is all about and he spent 6 minutes saying absolutely nothing just like Kimbob mentioned so clearly above. And I also noticed that it was the first award so makes me think they made this award up just so they could give it to him and also basically the award is just for being commited to the cult and that is it. Neither tommy girl or miscaving said anything. Not once did either of them mention that they had done anything to help the world other than to recruit others into the cult. It is really weird it is like they just sit in a room all day telling themselves how wonderful they are without any explanation or proof of earning it. And tommy girl has met all the leaders (not sure which leaders he is talking about and he declares miscavich to be the most compassionate of them all. So it must be true because Mr. $75 Million said it is so. Also, as someone else mentioned above who the hell do they think they are saluting one another? They are not military and have not earned that right.
Thank you for pointing out the saluting nonsense. TC also salutes the giant portrait of Hubbard who lied outrageously about his own time in the military. Our country has true military heroes, and they receive real medals, not this sci fi garbage.
I kind of feel for Tom. (Sorry, I didn’t read ALL the previous posts – too long!) I think he probably started out innocently enough with CO$, but due to the “auditing” process, they must have something big on him, enough to ruin his reputation (much like John Travolta).
Well after reading ex-members stories (one in which the ex-m stated that he doesn’t think that the likes of Travolta, etc, knows a lot of the going ons and wrote an open letter to them), I do feel a little for Tom. He most likely was a bit of a lost soul(money and success doesn’t help with that), and according to said member (paraphrasing): “It doesn’t start out bad, they are actually very nice and pleasant. It’s after time that you start to realize slowly that something is not right”. By that time, they have enough on you to blackmail the hell out of you. They even tried to ruin a journalist life (and almost did, including making her suicidal) in the 70’s. Just for looking deep into the Church and writing about the going ons. It’s awful, just awful. There is also speculation as to whether L Ron Hubbard died of a stroke or killed. It’s a mess.
Didnt mean to post this twice.
Well after reading ex-members stories (one in which the ex-m stated that he doesn’t think that the likes of Travolta, etc, knows a lot of the going ons and wrote an open letter to them), I do feel a little for Tom. He most likely was a bit of a lost soul(money and success doesn’t help with that), and according to said member (paraphrasing): “It doesn’t start out bad, they are actually very nice and pleasant. It’s after time that you start to realize slowly that something is not right”. By that time, they have enough on you to blackmail you into oblivion. They even tried to ruin a journaliss life (and almost did, including making her suicidal) in the 70’s. Just for looking deep into the Church and writing about the going ons. It’s awful, just awful. There is also speculation as to whether L Ron Hubbard died of a stroke or killed. It’s a mess.
Cruise looks to be half a head taller than Misc, how little is that man?
Tom may have a few strange traits but professional he is so I don’t begrudge him being back on set trying to do his job… given that he’s had a bewildering-beyond-belief fortnight…
Not for nothing, but HOW SHORT is Miscavige if he’s up to TC’s shoulder???
i picked up this lame bit from perezhilton.com= speaks of Tom’s umm, Godly powers now that he’s a top level OT thetan III he can even control energy matter! all humans ARE energy matter but Katie must be a different type…how LAME is this?
Do these folks realize that CO$ was joked up by a hack sciene fiction writer who said best way to make $$$ was to start your own religion and also performed hanger abortions on his own wife???????????????
“As an “Operating Thetan” in the Church of Scientology, Tom’s fellow believers look up to him as one of the spiritual greats — believing he’s able to move objects with his mind, telepathically communicate with animals (and humans), and just leave his physical body whenever he pleases! And since he’s been practicing the religion for thirty years, he’s obviously visited their “Bridge to Total Freedom” to reach enlightenment (can’t wait to see what happens when he reaches the mysterious 33 milestone). In fact, Janet Reitman discovered that Tom is operating at the super high level of OT VII — which privileges him to such powers as telepathy! Apparently he’s reached a God-like state within himself and the church. How divine is he?? Well, according to Reitman’s findings, they believe Professor X Tom is able to control matter, energy, time AND space!
Incredible!”
And yet he still wears lifts. One would think that such an all-powerful being would either make himself grow a few inches or realize his height doesn’t matter a bit.
‘and yet he wears lifts’..BEST COMMENT EVER!!! OMG…I laughed and laughed and LAUGHED! You are SO FUNNY!
Zap–Love it! Tom Thumb and Miss Cabbage would be so p*ssed. It’s time they were quietly and peaceably taken down from their self-ordained pedestals and escorted to an interrogation room somewhere, because from the sound of it, many laws are being broken all the time, and human rights violations are common. How do they get away with it?
@erika, thanks for all that info on their “views” on an “operating thetan.” That’s MIND-NUMBING….how in holy HELL can these goons believe such, right?!
Off Topic:
Katie’s Mom is awesomely GORGEOUS! V. classy n’ stylish! I like how she has styled for her age! Class Act, n’ money can’t buy that!…I’m so glad katie has a Mom that she obviously has a close, trusting bond with.
Well look, top photo: the classic gay handshake!
Well if you do your own inner searching, or just hire a good psychologist or spiritual advisor, you can get all the benefits of scientology without being indoctrinated into a controlling and abusive cult.
This was a great read and explains more about this cult, or religious choice etc.
Good thread.
One of the things I enjoy about this site is CB always gives you links to click with back info or more info.
Throw in the enlightening comments
Number 1 site for me.
Some people are just too stupid to live and you wonder how they successfully get through their day.
L Ron Hubbard was a WRITER first and foremost and he COULDN’T get his book published, so he vowed to make it into a religion and he’s got these goofballs buying his fantasy book as “the gospel”…when you’re stupid, you suffer!