Candace Cameron and her brother Kirk are evangelical Christians. The Camerons – with the help of many Evangelicals – have been a part of a cottage industry in Hollywood and the publishing world by making “family-friendly” and “Evangelical-friendly” movies, TV shows, TV movies, books, etc. And before someone complains about my use of “cottage industry” – yes, I get that Evangelical/Christian entertainment is a growing and profitable industry representing hundreds of millions of dollars. I’m just saying that for the most part, it’s separate from the rest of Hollywood and the rest of the publishing world.
So, Candace has a new book out. It’s called Balancing It All: My Story of Juggling Priorities and Purpose. From what I understand, this is not a “how to”. She’s not Gooping all over us, encouraging us to live exactly like her. Maybe I’m wrong about that, but this book just seems more like a Christianity-infused memoir. And it’s a memoir about how she came to be a “submissive wife” to her husband Val Bure. “Submissive” in the biblical sense. Seriously. Candace spoke about it to HuffPo:
Actress Candace Cameron Bure spoke on HuffPost Live with host Nancy Redd about her views on marriage, which she’s outlined in her new book, Balancing It All: My Story of Juggling Priorities and Purpose. The former “Full House” star has been happily married to NHL player Val Bure for 17 years, and they have three children.
She writes in her book, “I am not a passive person, but I chose to fall into a more submissive role in our relationship because I wanted to do everything in my power to make my marriage and family work.”
Bure elaborated on HuffPost Live, “The definition I’m using with the word ‘submissive’ is the biblical definition of that. So, it is meekness, it is not weakness. It is strength under control, it is bridled strength… I love that my man is a leader. I want him to lead and those major decisions to fall on him… it doesn’t mean I don’t voice my opinion, that I don’t have an opinion – I absolutely do.”
Cameron has defended her view of marriage in the past. On Christian Women Online she quoted the biblical passage, “First Peter 3:1 says, ‘In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives.'”
“It is very difficult to have two heads of authority,” she told HuffPost Live. “It doesn’t work in military, it doesn’t work — I mean, you have one president, you know what I’m saying?”
[From HuffPo and The Daily Mail]
At the end of the day… it’s her body, her choice, her marriage. If being “submissive” to her husband and letting him make all of the “decisions” in their marriage is what works for her, than God bless. Do I think this is a dangerous idea to promote? Absolutely. But there are millions of women and men who feel that this is how marriage should be, with the man as the decider and the lady as the…? I don’t even know. The ladies raise the children, but if the husband is the ultimate decider, how do you even get through the day without calling your man a million times to get him to sign off on a million different things? It just doesn’t make sense from a time-management perspective.
Photos courtesy of WENN.
I had to do a search to figure out who she was.
You never saw Full House? Shame on you, Kiddo!
I can’t believe she’s been married for 17 years! How is that possible?? I am so effin’ old 🙁
Ha! I think that every time I see the Olsen twins OKitt..
She seemed vaguely familiar.
Am I the only one who thinks she looks a little…nutty?
I thought it was Giselle at first.
And I thought she might have been Topanga from Boy Meets World!
Fun fact: Her (Candace’s) brother in law was once engaged to Anna Kournikova.
I had to do a search to figure out what a submissive wife is. “Submissive” is not in my nature. Just to be clear, read these instructions:
http://surrendered.blog.com/how-to-be-a-submissive-wife/
I agree that two alpha personalities sometimes clash in a relationship – been there done that – but two reasonable adults should be able to establish some form of gender-neutral democracy for making decisions.
I checked out your link and now I have a headache from all the eye-rolling. Hey, you know what? If Candace is happy, and her husband is happy, and the sweet little fembot who wrote that blog is happy… then viva Amurrca, to each her own. But frankly, one of her little rules gave me a chill.
“7. Absolutely no talking about your spousal problems to anyone you meet, not even under the pretense of seeking help!”
No wife-beater could have said it better.
I skimmed the comments, and noticed no one suggested – isn’t it a little unfair for the MAN that he is supposed to make all the decisions? I’m thinking of how much pressure that would put on my significant other – everything that went wrong would be his fault, all the worries and pressure would be on his head. I don’t think this submissive stuff is good for women OR men. It robs women of their autonomy and men or being able to have a real partner.
Danielle, my male partner would absolutely agree with you on this.
This is a hell of a blog. I don’t know what I think of it yet, but it’s interesting.
Well that website sure was an eye opener — did no one else notice there’s a whole section on BDSM and shaving your bits? Takes “submission” to new levels I guess.
“Be adjustable and bendable” <– LMAO!!
HFS. Having read a little MORE of that site – specifically, the BDSM and Masonic Wife sections – I gotta say…. this site seems like a man wrote it. Between the pics and what-not, it’s practically soft-core. Someone’s fantasy BDSM sex slave. I’m not saying women can’t be into that and enjoy it, just saying, it’s pretty easy to picture some one-handed typing behind this masterpiece. And I’m sorry sweets, but your man padlocking you into your 5-inch stilettos and not allowing you to wear clothes for days at at a time… that’s just good old-fashioned BDSM. God and the Bible have zilch to do with it. But, hey…. whatever you need to tell yourself in order to enjoy your sex life. It’s worth it that I got to see the phrase “Christian BDSM” in print.
This woman is a self confessed survivor of bulimia. Not to trivialize or mock victims of food disorders, but folks that succumb to it typically describe it as a way of taking control of something that plagues them. Wanting to regulate your body weight and image is at the surface but underneath are other issues of low esteem. Either way healthy individuals do not binge then barf to the detriment of their health. But I imagine in order to engage in it, there’s irrational belief to which you subscribe to maintain the disorder. Maybe the “oppression” in her marriage is endorsed in the same way because like she said, “she’ll do anything to make her marriage work.” I admire her bravery to put it out there. After all, her successful marriage of 17 yrs gives some merit to claims on “how tos” of marriage although that’s not the goal. But if you write a memoir about yourself the intended offshoot is to inspire others. Her husband may have been successful at the onset as a pro athlete but I can’t imagine he has been able to generate any income from Hockey still (I haven’t done the research). She is beautiful and I’ve enjoyed her Hallmark specials and find it refreshing I’ve never seen her topless, etc. She’s a good girl. I may read her book so I know what I’m criticizing.
I never knew she was bulimic.
deer in the headlights look of the oppressed and deluded
The bible was written at a time when a woman was property and sold for a dowry. Context people!!!
Yeah, context. I’m no expert, my religious education was sadly lacking as my own parents didn’t GAF about it, but I know a few things: it’s a sin to mix fabrics, it’s a sin to eat seafood, and I think it might be a sin to alternate crops or something. Also, I think it’s a sin to judge others. In any case, I also don’t GAF if people cherry pick the Bible to justify their own life choices, but FFS leave the rest of us alone.
While this would not work for me, I’m not in their marriage. To each their own. Yes it might be iffy to promote but who, other than the people already living this way are going to go out and buy the book?
However I will say that it annoys the shit out of me when someone quotes scripture about women being less than when that book was written by man. Of course it would call for submission. I have the same brain in my head as any man and use it just as, if not more than, efficiently than they do.
I agree that this book and opinion will have no impact on anyone not already buying into that lifestyle. She’s not a huge star who has mass appeal or influence. She is preaching to the choir.
+1,000,000 to all of it, BM.
As long as, in this country, there isn’t any government mandated religion, I don’t care what the bible says, or how it is interpreted. It isn’t a book of laws for the US.
You and I feel the same about this, Kiddo.
As an atheist I believe how each person chooses to exercise their religion is their business as long as they don’t try to legislate their religion, it doesn’t affect me in the least.
Maybe if we show them that we don’t GAF about what they do behind closed doors, then it will teach people like Candace and Kirk to not GAF about what the LGBT community does behind closed doors. Eh, probably just wishful thinking….
Can I just say how GREAT it makes me feel to know that people like Blue Marie, The Original Kitten, Kiddo, V4Real, are out there! I agree with you ladies 100%. It saves me so much time typing! 😉
Yeah I second this, Tiffany, and I include you in there because you’ve saved me plenty of time around here too 🙂
My only issue with Kiddo is that she always makes me feel so damn inarticulate 😉
Yeah I second this, Tiffany, and I include you in there because you’ve saved me plenty of time around here too.
My only issue with Kiddo is that she always makes me feel so damn inarticulate 😉
Well I will say this. The Bible often is taken out of context and parts are left out. For example, it does say that women should be submissive to their husbands but it also talks about how husbands should value their wives above all other (aside from God of course). Basically it gives instruction, on how men are supposed to treat their wives like queens and never take advantage of their “head of household” status. I think the term “submissive” has such a negative context that was never really meant. But nobody ever talks about that part of course.
Edit: When I say nobody talks about that part, I am not talking about people on here commenting, I’m referring to people who speak in public who should be more knowledgeable.
Yes, you only hear about the responsibility of men to cherish and protect in Bible studies for women. I can only assume it’s to make women feel better about submitting. I remember being told we need to protect our husband’s egos. Oh, please. My husband’s ego is quite fine without me worrying about it.
There’s also a long part of the book of Proverbs that praises women who are able to use their brain and make decisions for the household. No one ever mentions that.
Well said. There were also other book(s) that put women at the head of the table that were ‘lost’ or destroyed.
@Delorb – There were? Wow, I honestly didn’t know that. Do you know any more about them, or know of some site I could read? (I find it very fascinating). It wasn’t the *only* reason, but the inequality of men & women was a *very* major part of why I pulled away from my family’s beliefs. (Mom/Dad aren’t church-goers, but Mom’s father has been a pastor his whole life, & her two sisters married pastors. Caused a major rift in my relationship with them & how they view me).
I would always point out that the Bible isn’t absolute. That it has been subject to tampering for thousands of years; probably altered to fit the agendas of those in charge throughout history. As others have said, men (human men) wrote the Bible, back during a time when culturally, women weren’t even considered *capable* of opinions, God forbid *expressing* them. Questioning a man could cost you your life, back then. Of *course* the bible is going to reflect that, & claim it’s GOD’S WILL. (More like ‘MAN’S WILL).
It still makes me angry (obviously). I definitely want to know more about these books you mentioned.
I am a bona fide Christian but I am an extremely independent, opinionated, outspoken, married girl. So independent that my husband and I live in separate houses 1 1/2 hours apart. Can’t help it I was just born that way. HAHA.
@ Hakura – I’ve learned a vague notion -accuracy to be further verified – it is something to do with the Spanish Inquisition – Queen Isabella was super cruel and after her reign the monks of the time who were in charge of the bibles were pissed off and destroyed stories of the bible that contained strong women.
Completely agree. I don’t care for people who cherry pick certain aspects to suit their argument, and then ignore or dismiss other parts, and certainly scriptures have been influenced and tailored over the years by men wishing to retain power.
I have read the Bible in my lifetime. I’m not trying to offend any hardcore Christians but the Bible itself is a printed contradiction. The Bible says to turn the other cheek, yet says an eye for an eye. It says a wise man would not drink but yet Jesus turned water into wine for the men to drink.
The Bible has been written and re-written so many times since it’s beginning; God only knows how many scriptures have been modified over the course of that time. Also if you’re a believer in God, do you really think God might still hold fast to what he said so many years ago. He knows that people over the years continue to progress. I like to believe my God will be more forgiving of the people who don’t completely follow his rules. Hence the reason why I don’t think God will condemn a gay couple to hell just because they went against what some people like Phil Robertson believe is the sanctity of marriage.
As David Cross said, the Bible is like the world’s oldest game of “telephone”. When people say they “believe” the Bible, my first question is, “Well, then what would’t you believe?”.
The bible also says that a woman is “unclean” for 7 days following her period and that any surface or person she touches is unclean. She must also sacrifice 2 doves when menstruation is over to atone for the “sin” of menstruation (Leviticus 15: 19-30).
That bible! So applicable to everyday life!
The Bible is a allegory, a metaphor. It’s not literal. At least not for us Catholics.
My grandmas are hard-core Catholics, but both were equal, if not the “boss” in their marriages. God, if someone told them to be submissive, it definitely wouldn’t have gone down well.
The Bible was written down by men, translated by men and interpreted by men for centuries. Men are not God. Men have flaws in reasoning, in motive and in understanding. How anyone takes the Bible literally is beyond me. God is given human qualities in the Bible that I simply do not believe He possesses – pettiness, jealousy, tolerance for slavery, and just plain meanness. I think the word of God can be found in the Bible in moments of brilliance, but so can mistakes made by men with their own prejudices and agendas, incapable of imagining a true Godly spirit.
V4Real, I have to humbly disagree with that statement of the Bible being a book of contradictions. Anyone can read it, take note of the changes the New Testament makes on the old law in the Old Testament and see that it is a practical book for anyone choosing to live by it today. The eye for an eye quote is not from the Bible. *If* it is, it would probably be in the Old Testament.
It kinda irks me when people also declare it a sexist book. Please, anyone, point me to any other ancient religious books in use today that include books named after women and/or include the plight or stories of several more women. Yes, there are some stories that are weird to me, like the “unclean period woman”, but again, that’s in the Old Testament under the old law which, under the new law in the New Testament, is currently negligible. Also, the Bible advises against drunkenness, not abstaining from drinking altogether. Anyone who criticizes Brandi Glanville can see why 😉 That’s why it’s ok that Jesus turned water to wine.
Lastly, I agree with someone above who said that “submissive” has negative connotations today. When I was dating my husband, he told me he wanted a submissive wife and I wanted to rip him a new one! Me?? SUBMISSIVE?!? An independent woman from NYC?! Naw! But when I read those verses Cameron mentions as well as the verses about husbands loving and honoring their wives above themselves, I came to understand what he meant. Men crave respect in relationships the way women (who want a relationship) crave a partner who loves them beyond anything. It is not a green light to abuse the woman or treat her as a doormat or disrespect her opinions. Honestly, if anyone (man or woman) is making major decisions without the input of their SO, you have bigger problems. I’m not gonna call my husband over whether or not to put gas in the car, but I will defer to him about whether or not to purchase a car.
Anyhoo, apologies for the long comment. It’s just absurd to me that people become almost vitriolic when it comes to anyone choosing to live by Bible standards with no effort to see the full picture of that decision. If you don’t want to live by Bible standards, that is okay and your choice. Just don’t be insulting towards people who do, as if we’re deluded, abused and every other crazy terms used here. Like Kaiser said, she’s not Gooping us.
Just asking, but isn’t “eye for an eye” from the Code of Hammurabi?
@ McGraw – good comment. I find it disappointing that people seem to comment negatively about the bible without really having read it. I would tell them “read the whole thing and then get back to me”. I have read parts of the Quran (Islam), the Dhammapada (Buddism) and the book of Mormon but I wouldn’t tell people of those faiths what those books “really mean” unless I had read them completely and studied them in depth.
Evangelical Christians see the bible as literal – Jonah was swallowed, in truth, by a great fish.
I agree that many of the bible’s quotes that look contradictory are a difference between Old Testament (pre-Jesus) and New Testament (Jesus). Not all of the contradictions, but many.
Many women who say they’re being submissive to their husbands say it in name only. I have a high school friend who is a loud-mouthed obnoxious woman married to a quiet passive man. She seems to think she submits and he seems to believe it. It gives him a sense of control he obviously does not have in the marriage. Somehow it works for them.
V4Real – I think you mean Pat Robertson, but there’s been so many lying hypocritical televangelists, there may be a Phil too.
@ McCraw-have you read Love & Respect? It’s about the cycles, both positive and negative, you can get into in your marriage. I like using the term respect vs. submit. My husband and I are as liberal as they come (and when I say liberal, I mean pro-choice, pro-legalization, pro-marriage equality, OK with paying our tax rate, drinkin’, cussin’, etc), and in many ways have a non-traditional marriage, but I do try to treat him with respect. It’s not because I don’t feel I’m just as valuable, smart, or useful, but because it makes him feel loved and important. I also let him handle some big decisions, because that’s how our dynamic works. He is in banking, he manages our money, he can figure out what we can afford, and, frankly, I have no interest in researching all the safety features and warranties on an appliance or car. Would this work for every woman? No. But because he knows how to show me love, and I know how to show him love in the form of respecting his opinion and thoughts, we have a very happy marriage. Now, granted, I actually had to pull up my paystub a few weeks ago and look at it because I had no idea what I had brought in this year, which is probably a little weird, but it’s just so soothing not to have to worry about our financial decisions.
@MCraw. Well said.
@Prettytarheel I get what you’re saying, and it would be nice to have that comfort, I’m single so I dunno if I’ll have a marriage or what it will be like.. But, I hope that while you don’t have to make the decisions, you know what’s going where, and how to manage and access it, should there ever come a time that you need to take over.
I’m not even saying the end of your marriage, but God forbid something were to happen to your husband, that he wasn’t able to take care of things, would you be able to? Would you know how?
It’s rough out here, and if need to be, every woman should be able to pull some independent woman out of their bag.
Makes me think of Emily from Gilmore Girls when her husband has a heart attack. She says something to the effect of; we were in a canoe, and now Richard has dropped his oars and I’m just going round and round in circles. But you, you’re in a kayak.
Make sure you can kayak.
PrettyTarheelFan, I love the list of things you and your hubby are “pro” about! That is my kind of list! 😉
It sounds like you and your husband have a relationship that is a true team. He handles finances because that is his strength. You probably handle some matters that are more suited to your strengths too. Sounds great to me!
MCraw: ‘An eye for an eye’ is absolutely from the bible. It is in Deuteronomy AND Exodus That’s why it is such a big deal for Jesus to say ‘turn the other cheek’.
Deuteronomy: 19:21:You shall not have pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
Exodus: 21: 23-25:
23 But if there is harm, you are to take life for life,
24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
As for sexist examples in the bible….where to start. Perhaps you should read up on the fates of Jezebel, Delilah and VAshti [sp]. All women punished for not being ‘submissive’.
The bible is full of women who serve men. Never the other way round. They are always described as ‘x of a particular man’ never really given credit for standing on their own and when that does happen, there is always a caveat eg Mary Magdalane, prostitute [or former].
And you can’t discount the old testament just because it doesn’t tally with your particular belief system because there is alot that carries through to the new, all Jesus really says is to have compassion whilst following the old rules.
@LAK, thank you. I didn’t want to go into a heavy debate as to what is in the Bible and what is not. Thanks for pointing out that those things are in our book of rules to live by.
For those who said read the Bible first before you comment. I think I made it quite clear that I read the Bible when I said I have read the Bible. I was also one of the kids that went to church almost every Sunday. But thank God as I got older my family let me decide for myself if I wanted to continue with my Christian studies or not.
@Mamamee I was referrring to Phil Robertson from Duck Dynasty but LOL. You made me smile.
It isn’t dangerous, the Bible says “wives, submit to your husbands. And husbands, love your wives as Christ so loved the church” (paraphrasing). It is about letting your husband be the spiritual leader of your home, and about how husbands and wives can help one another to be the best people they can be. None of it is about making either person LESS than the other, it’s about becoming MORE together. Not submissive in the “bow down” sense.
Thank you. It’s kinda sad how the Bible has been so misrepresented by the half_ass Christians so life choices like this come into scrutiny.
The main people the Bible has been misrepresented by is the men who rewrote and modifed it over the years. We really don’t know for sure what’s actually God’s word or what men have added.
Lastly even though you agree with Jacqueline interpretation of what God meant, there are even Ministers and Pastors and so on who intrepret scriptures such as this one differently. You can’t say that this interpretation is the correct one when the people who should know the Bible like they they the back of their hands can’t even agree. What it all now boils down to is a matter of opinion. I have even heard Preachers say ‘I believe what God is trying to say”. Notice they didn’t say what he is saying, but what they believe he is saying. Even this half-ass Christian knows this much.
Actually when you compare the bible today, to the first scriptures that were found, hardly any has changed, especially the King James translation. There is a lot of proof to substantiate this.
Do you have this proof in hand or are you listening to the men that have gone out and claimed to have found this proof.
That implies that women are incapable of, or not as good as being spiritual leaders, and that’s truly sad, and that’s definitely less. When it comes to our relationship with God, we need no leader. All religions put women in a lesser position, and a lesser light. That’s not new, but it does make women a lesser being in the eyes of religion. I know that my God, the true God, would not look at any woman as lesser.
@Josephine I definitely get your point but a Christian friend pointed out to me that Jesus actually treated women like people of value. Case in point: the way he treated the woman caught in the act of adultery, the fact that women play such a significant role in his ministry on earth, women being the first to know about the resurrection, all that stuff. I don’t believe Christianity is wholly against women.
Dani2, I don’t think that was her point. What Jesus may or may not have done is not part of this discussion.
Why can’t the woman be the spiritual leader of the household, if women indeed are not lesser to men?
@Nerd Alert I wasn’t refuting her point, I agree with the majority of what she said, I just felt the need to add that Jesus’ treatment of women in the Bible is somewhat admirable and how can what Jesus may or may not have done not be part of the discussion? He’s pretty much the figurehead for Christianity as a whole.
Dani2 He’s just a figurehead. Sadly, Christians who are Christ-like are hard to find.
@Nerd Alert +1 No lies detected in what you said honey, Gandhi said it best when he said: “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ”.
@Dani2
Muḥammad was also very enlightened about women. We all know how THAT gets interpreted in some parts of the world.
Not sure how it is nowadays but when I was growing up the Quakers were pretty cool – very open minded. There is an hour long silence – no preacher and those who feel moved to speak do so.
@Dani2 Very good reference. I find myself separating Jesus Christ from Christianity more often than not.
This.
Of the evangelicals I have known, women are regarded as less capable of making important life decisions. It’s not an overt thing but a very subtle mindset that sees women as somehow needing men.
What’s weird is that, the women I know who adhere to a similar mindset are responsible for raising the kids, keeping the house and making many very important life choices on a daily basis. When their choices do not align with what “the head of the household” deems appropriate, then the man will oftentimes use the lack of spousal communication that causes the issues as evidence that women are less capable.
While I don’t think there is anything wrong with Mrs. Bure’s lifestyle choice, there are a great many women who are basically treated like second class citizens who are not afforded the opportunity to develop their own identity apart from being the mother to their children, the wife to their husband. When acted out as such, this “wives must be submissive” social norm can quickly become a gilded cage of oppression.
I am the spiritual leader between my husband and me because I am more spiritual than he is. I would be waiting forever if I was waiting for my husband to be the spiritual leader.
The problem is, though, that a lot people (usually men) do interpret it in the “bow down” sense. This is the exact passage that gets bandied about to excuse abuses both physical and emotional, and a lot of crappy people (usually men) will quote this exact verse as their God-given right to be awful. That’s what makes people so leery and negative about it. It isn’t the words themselves, it’s how they get applied in the real world. Which is actually the problem with most of the Bible.
+1 Religion makes people feel as though they can get away with the most horrendous things.
@Dani2 & Algernon – The Crusades, anyone?
I think twisting something meant to be an inherently *good* guide to the challenges of life …(a source of comfort, reassurance, & a sense of connection to God)… To suit one’s own selfish agenda & justify acts of horror & oppression, is one of the greatest ‘sins’ there is…& a perfect example of how inherently flawed human beings are. (With the exception of Jesus).
I’ve never been able to wrap my mind around the staggering amounts of *hypocrisy* in some people’s ‘justifications’ for why God is ‘loving, forgiving, & beyond spite & hatred’, but would then approve of acts of cruelty (blatant sins) committed in his name. To do those things is to dishonor the very ‘grace’ he’s supposed to stand for.
Just mind-boggling. = I’m not even a particularly religious person. I only know for sure that I believe in God & Jesus, but beyond that, I’m *extremely* liberal & ‘live & let live’.
It does say that husbands should love their wives as Christ loved the Church. But Christ was prone to fits of rage. He constantly called his followers “fools”, he whipped some dudes in the temple and my favorite, he cursed some poor fig tree to eternal barreness for not having some fruit ready for picking on that day. And Jesus certainly didnt consult his followers infact quite the opposite, he rarely answered their questions and when he did it was in riddles and parables. Yea, he probably shouldnt be a model for marriage (sorry if this offends)
But he did that cool water-into-wine thing. Plus, I’ll bet he could pull some strings for you where his dad’s concerned.
Seriously though, no one should be modeling their life according to a book that talks about giant wars, the zombie apocalypse, and omniscient space aliens.
I’ve been a Christian for over twenty years and that is not in the bible Betsy.
@Betsy11 – I mean no disrespect, but your comment comes across unnecessarily insulting & condescending. I don’t mean your opinion, you’re absolutely entitled to express that & don’t have to agree with anyone else’s. It was just the tone, & word choices. It pretty much makes it sound as though anyone religious/believes in the bible, (or even just believe in God)…Are idiots chasing some sort of sci-fy fairy-tale.
One of the *best* things about CB that makes it so great is that ever though the ladies here are from all walks of life (ages, races, countries, religions, families), they *always* strive to be respectful of eachother’s opinions even if they don’t agree. The conversations can be so great & major learning experiences.
I just think the way you expressed your beliefs was disrespectful & inconsiderate of those who would respect yours. Not tying to start anything, just saying.
@Jessiebees – ever hear about Goliath, the rapture, and the Almighty himself? The things I mentioned are most CERTAINLY in the bible.
@Hakura – Organized religion the world over has fostered such horrific and needless cruelty, not the least of which is the institutionalized misogyny that is the subject of this article. If I sounded as though I have no respect for a religious work that’s packed with bigotry, violence, and fanciful imagings… it’s because I don’t. You read too much into my post – I said nothing about religious people and saddling me with those accusations is unfair.
Btw, you should read the Book of Enoch before trying to distance Christianity from Sci Fi.
+100000 Jaqueline and Dani2
One thing that does muddy this conversation is that people who teach and preach from the Bible basically use it to spout their own incorrect opinions. It’s very unfortunate and is a disservice for anyone inclined to be curious. Don’t allow your valid opinions of Christendom negate the value of its source, the Bible. Believe me, I felt the same way until I had a proper study of the Bible to see that there is so much crap out there that misrepresents its message.
whatever it is a fairytale book whoever takes it literal has anyhow issues. I still can’t get over the fact that in some parts of the US creationism is taught at schools. Where I am from you maybe hear in the christian classs that are optional about it but even there it is made clear that those stories are more or less fairytales. Yeah, be submissive if this is your descicion and makes you happy but in most cases this is not much of a choice and is implaned by religious education-keeping people dumb, uncritical and uninformed and women lesser of a human.
I think letting your husband be the spiritual leader of the home is a bad message. Basic questions: why not the woman? What if the woman in that particular relationship is more suited? What if the husnad isnt interested in being a spiritual leader? What if the husband drops dead What’s wrong with sharing?
The fact it nominates the dude to be a spiritual leader without giving though to the idiosyncracies of the relationship is terrible. Yeesh.
I was raised in the evenglical bubble growing up. I was told over and over again that when I get married my husband was the boss. I’m summing it up. As I got older and thankfully more intuned to the bullshit that was sholved down my throat. I walked away.
Whatever happened to equality in a relationship ?
Yeah, that’s the other thing that bothers me. From a home where the father is the boss to a marriage where the father gives away the bride to the husband who becomes her boss. It’s like she’s chattel or a child that can’t be trusted to think for herself or make important decisions. That bothers me a lot and sows seeds of inferiority and less self worth imo.
We women haven’t had true ‘equality’ for very long and every bit of it we got we had to fight for.
As long as he’s not abusing her and she’s happy and it works for them. Whoever the hell they are.
Oh Christ! That toolbag secret gay is HER BROTHER?? Yuck
Lemme not even start on that whole churchy folks and the submissive woman claptrap (aka how my sister ended not getting bc cause it wasn’t biblical only to end with two kids in under a year and a half, Impoverished and always hemmed up in some bullshit scheme cause “the head of her household” is a lazy conniving unemployable preachy jerk who doesn’t really want to look for a job, as he should be a preacher cause that is his “blessing” thus the person working 12 hour shifts is the girl with a degree that has to “fall in line” with his bullshit creative plans… Yeah fk that)
Ha ha ha… Love it!
Subtlety is so overrated, which is why I always enjoy your comments, QQ.
LOL Yeah Okitt I’m not here to give anyone “The Subtle” LOL
YESSSSS Suzy!! YES!(below or above not sure which end this comment will come!) Andrea Yates is another perfect barefoot and pregnant (and ill) example of Your husband is going to dictate what you do down to your healthcare cause you cant be trusted or some such ..
Or look at Andrea Yates. They lived this kind of belief and when she needed serious help for mental issues her husband made the important decisions and clearly didn’t think it was that bad. She shouldn’t have kept having kids due to severe post-partum psychosis, but her husband believed in having as many kids as God gives you, so they kept having kids. They lived in a bus for a while with all those kids and her homeschooling and taking care of everything except herself and him oblivious and look how it all ended. This can be a really dangerous thing, especially when the man in the relationship sees only what he wants to see and turns a blind or ignorant eye to problems that are serious and are potentially dangerous. It’s like parents who pray their kids will get better instead of taking them to the doctor and letting them die of things that could be easily cured with medications. It’s easy to say to each their own when things appear nice on the outside, but it can be a very dangerous and powerless situation for a lot of women and children.
Agree with all you say about Rusty Yates, but I’d lack to add in the complete failure of mental health care in our country. She was released from the hospital when the insurance company dictated, not when she was necessarily safe to go home.
@QQ, LOL I love the dose of reality!
It sounds like your sister married a tool. Don’t blame religion for that. She needs to kick him to the curb, take her kids and get gone. She sounds like she would do fine with out him.
Ewwwww.
While I don’t subscribe to this whole “let the man lead” thing (men are capable of misjudging and leading their families astray), the Bible does also say that husbands should love their wives, giving themselves to their wives in the way that Christ loved the church so that’s kind of like submitting too right?
I agree with you up to the point of “Christ loved the church so that’s kind of like submitting too” – now, there’s where my disagreement is sprung. My interpretation would be that the husband must love the wife (and hence, his family) so much that he puts their interests and wellbeing on top. But of course it’s debatable.
Another thing is that this is a passage not from the Gospel (aka what Jesus actually said), but from Peter’s (one of his disciples) letter.
I agree with your interpretation, I think that’s what I meant to say lol. And that is a valid point actually, Jesus never actually said that. Gosh, I should never have come into this thread haha, I was brought up as a Christian but talking about the Bible stresses me out because there’s so many different ways in which it can be interpreted, I know a lot of Christian couples that I feel don’t adhere to this “let the man lead” thing, it’s more like “leading side by side” for a lot of the couples I know. And I think that’s best.
Yes, it is.
1 Peter 3:7
“Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.”
Woman as the WEAKER vessel. It’s pretty clear that women are to submit and that their husbands are to view them as inferior.
Dani2. That is exactly it, husbands have to submit too. Doesn’t make them better than women.
I worry about the message that this sends to young women…that they should be meek (and yes, she uses the word “meekness” and that while they can voice their opinions, the husband has the final say. In fact Candace states that she would allow her husband to make a final decision — even if it was detrimental to her family! Well, maybe it depends on exactly what she means by detrimental, but saying that could be interpreted in some pretty bad ways by young women. What if the husband is abusive? I just worry that a lot of women might see her and think they need to put up with some pretty horrible behaviour from their husbands and/or leave themselves and their kids in abusive or horrible conditions in order to live the submissive wife role.
It also bothers me that she says she is not a passive person but has chosen to be passive and meek in order to let her husband be the authority. That almost sounds like she’s changing her personality in order to please him and this biblical ideal she sees as the role the wife needs to play.
I have been married for over 25 years now and my husband and I consider ourselves a team. I chose to stay home with my kids, but it was a choice made for a variety of reasons that had to do with my kids and logistics, but if I wanted to continue working, my husband would’ve supported me. We talk through everything and sometimes through weighing the positive and negatives in each situation we change our minds a zillion times before arriving at something we both feel is the right thing. I can’t imagine just going along with his decision if I disagree or think it’s detrimental to our family. That would never happen, especially if I felt it impacted my kids in a negative way.
Agreed, but what young girls are going to be reading Candace Cameron’s book? And I mean that seriously, not making fun of her. I’m 23 and I barely was hitting the time of new episodes of Full House airing. I doubt people that are any younger than myself even really know who the hell she is. While I don’t agree with her message, I feel like this book is for a niche market.
I also question Candace’s belief that average young women identify with her. It’s fine that Candace wants to be submissive, she’s had an independent career, earning independent money, and has supportive extended family. If she has mistakenly entrusted her husband with this power, it’s a heck of a lot easier to get out safely with her children than your average submissive woman.
I’m ‘each to their own’ to a certain point. but her wording of: “…I wanted to do everything in my power to make my marriage and family work.” rings a small alarm bell (it’s not like I’m going to lose much sleep over it!) for me. If being submissive is necessary to make the marriage work, I’d suggest it isn’t working so well. Maybe it’s hard for me to understand because I’m not religious at all, but a grown adult automatically deferring to another because otherwise it wouldn’t ‘work’ doesn’t sound healthy to me.
I paused at that line, too. The subtext seems to be, if I don’t do what he says or go along with his decisions, we’re finished.
That’s my thought as well.
Claire
+1 To you focusing on the actual quote and not getting lost in the endless circle of theological debate. Those tend to end with everyone patting eachother on the back for agreeing or tose involved at each other’s throats. Never worth it imo.
If Candace truly is happy in her marriage and feels her husband makes better decisions while her thoughts and opinions are still expressed and not dismissed then that’s great.
If she’s submissive to her husband like the Dugards it seems less healthy.
She’s walking a fine line here. This will most certainly make bigger headlines and be taken out of context to promote agendas.
We’ve made a mess out of Christianity.
That is what I was coming down here to say too! If you aren’t being your true self in a marriage just so you can save the marriage, something is clearly wrong with the marriage!!!
I caught that too. It reminds me of Carrie Underwood, who is married to a pro athlete, saying she would give up her whole career if it negatively impacted her marriage. Her husband didn’t stand up and vow the same thing.
Like anything in the Bible – or any spiritual text – there are thousands of interpretations of this tenet. For some, they feel that their husband should have the final say in all major decisions. However, many women who believe this also believe in being a “Psalm 31 Woman” – a woman who is described as making sound financial and business decisions for the family.
Look. The Bible is a mess. There’s all kinds of bs in there and most of it detracts from the basic message of love (IMO). The current versions of the Bible are all derived from the King James interpretation – which is severely lacking in accuracy, at best.
If this works for her in her life – more power to her, I suppose. But I require absolute equality. My husband, likewise, would not stand to be married to someone who was submissive or who constantly deferred to him. And I consider myself a Christian.
The king James Bible was written specifically to emphasise the divine right of Kings* AND to subjugate women specifically.
*Emphasise on Male rulers NOT females rulers.
The whole thing is an ode to misogyny and if it were written today, everyone would rightly call it out for it.
Yes! Thank you, LAK. I wrote a paper in college titled “Truth in Translation: The King James Bible. I’m staggered at people’s devotion and adherence to these texts. Especially when there are so many accounts of terms and meanings being substituted based upon a particular scholar’s leanings. They are literally just full of translation “errors” and yet people treat them as God-breathed, spiritual writings.
Until a voice breaks from the heavens and tells me what to do i’ve chosen to believe little of what I’ve read. If I wanted to base my life on a book written by men and their imaginations I can certainly find better ones.
GIGI/ Florc: Part of my education was at an evangelical convent type school. It was enlightened enough to insist that all students study all religions as part of the curriculum. We also had to read their books if they had one and study the civilisations and philosophy from whence they sprung.
I came from an evangelical family, but after the 2 years i spent at that school, i was and remain a committed atheist. That wasn’t the outcome they wanted, and i was often chastised for not being a believer, but meh! What are you going to do. As they say, knowledge shall set you free.
You said it, Florc!
No I respectfully disagree.
Fk that shit. There are millions of women brainwashed into this abusive state of relationships and so many try to escape it yet others try to romantize it just so that men can deal with the world in which women don’t want to play their punching bag any more.
There can never be a healthy relationship if one in the pair is subordinate to the other. It needs a balance.
Women are not animals needing an owner to be led around.
exactly. this is some anti-women propaganda bs and totally resposible for domestic violence.
No shade on whatever works for them.
I really thought that was Jenna Elfman, though!! DJ looks over toxed! 🙁
What does the bible say about Botox?
Perhaps, “If thy husband instructs thee to look younger for his pleasure, go forth to the font and drink ye of its youthfulness.”
LOL!
The bible says: refer to the spiritual leader.
Edit: oh boo, too late.
@ Cool Phosphorescent Shimmer, lol!
I know too many women who let the husband rule the roost. Take their paychecks, run the household financially. Then when they take off with their mistresses or drop dead. They find out the men squandered the money or didn’t pay the bills leaving them in debt or worse bankrupt.
As a nurse, I’ve seen this numerous times in the older generation. Sometimes these pitiable women do not even know how to drive, test their blood sugar, or even administer their own insulin. All these things were left to the husband.
I’ve also seen senior women who were ideal submissive wives – until their husbands retired. Then they start bossing around husbands who are in the way in “her” house.
Being submissive doesn’t mean being ignorant, unaware or stupid. It means being informed, talk about things that matter and make a decision together, but led your husband have the final say.
It doesn’t mean just lay down and let your husband mistreat you and walk all over you….. Since husbands should treat their wives as queens and put their wives well being over their own, in theory that should work perfectly.
But we are not perfect and the bible also tells wives to get out of an abusive relationship.
Jessie read what you just wrote – that you ‘make the decision together’ but your husband has the final say. That’s not a collaborative decision then is it if he still has to rubber stamp it?
I can see so many problems arising from this method of doing things. How many women are going to bother keeping themselves informed and educated if their opinion is really just given lip service while their husband makes the decision ultimately anyway. Not to mention you say that women should walk away from an abusive marriage but how many women who are taught this way of life are probably also being taught that divorce is wrong at the same time. They are no doubt also not working and saddled with children, keeping them stuck in an untenable situation. This is just a system set up to keep women ‘in their place’ and no matter how gently you phrase it I cannot condone it.
this is contradictive, when you never have the final say you have no say at all. sorry but this bible verse is extremely sexsistic, let’s not sugarcoat it. And the wording is clear as well-submissive is a strong word, whereas the instructions how men should treat their wives is more blurry blabla. Submissive=your have no say.
Well I could never do that, to me you need to be an equal partner in your relationship. However, if this works for her then ok none of my business. I do hope that this isn’t something being promoted to young girls because it feels dangerous. Men and women are equal that is just how it is.
Personally I always loved a line from ‘My Big Fat Greek Wedding’ when Tula’s mom is giving her a little talk. “The man is the head of the household, but the woman is the neck and she can turn the head any way she wants to.”
hahaha thats the way i approach my marriage too. My husband thinks he’s the boss and outwardly it looks that way but at the end of the day, its always “wifey what do you think?” and 95% of the time he’ll do what I suggest.
but its not like he’s the controlling type that takes my paycheck and gives me an allowance. i have a friend who married a guy like that after knowing him 6 weeks and moved to Utah. He only lets her talk to her mom on saturdays for 10 minutes on speakerphone when he’s in the room eating breakfast because her mom dared question why he wouldn’t let her fly home for a visit. Myself (along with all her other non Mormon friends) were cut off after the wedding reception as bad influences. Her father treated her mom the same way though so its all she knows and her mom says she feels really guilty about it whenever i see her in town.
Speaking of flying home, the father of a close friend had a stroke a few weeks ago. She flew down to Florida and had asked her sister to accompany her. Her sister’s husband is a control freak to the max and told her she wasn’t going anywhere. I’ve been told he even literally does the white glove test to see if the house is clean. We’re talking mega douche here. Trust me, he is no prize package and she is just the sweetest girl. My friend and I both wish she would grow a pair and stand up to him already.
This – I had a really amazing friend growing up – so sweet, kind, smart, and beautiful. Her family was really religious and in their household – the man was the head of the house and that was that.
She was “not allowed” to date or marry outside of her branch of Christianity. She started dating this guy in high school and he was really controlling – he could go out with his friends, but she “had” to stay at home and wait for him to call. I remember him “setting her straight” for making a wrong turn driving somewhere and her being so upset that he was disappointed in her. He would emotionally manipulate her (if you break up with me no one will love you like I do). I tried to talk to her about it and she sided with her boyfriend. We stopped being friends and eventually she lost most of her friends that weren’t members of her church. She eventually married him and I hope for her sake their dynamic has changed, but sadly I don’t think it has.
Brown Eyed Girl, your friend is actually more pitiable than many other women submitting to their religion. Her husband’s religion names him a priesthood holder in her house, therefore defying him is almost like defying God. Better yet, her own 12 y/o son is put in a position of higher authority over his own mother. Also, when she married, her husband learned her “secret” name and only he can help her cross over after death. If you truly believe these teachings, your eternal life is in jeopardy if you leave your husband. Many women mitigate their own misery by saying a short lifetime of suffering is worth eternal salvation.
Yes! This! Totally!
I don’t care how she lives her life, if it works for her and the husband isn’t abusive, but I hate it when people like this promote this stuff. Because there are times and relationships where this truly does not work–like in abusive relationships. This type of “be submissive all the time, even when his decision is detrimental to the family” (because she totally said that) thing is ridiculous and harmful when the man is abusive.
Also, this type of promotion is harmful to those fighting for equality between the sexes. We should be promoting equality, not submissiveness. If a woman wants to make that choice, then that’s fine, but we have such a long way to go for true equality between the sexes in all corners of our society that this type of promotion to young women does not sit well with me.
I feel sorry for her. She spent a lot of her life addicted to drugs, and fundamentalist religious groups that disenfranchise women thrive on vulnerable people like her, who are easy targets as they are looking for something to depend on. I was courted by a Church of Christ group when I was in college and attended some meetings, only to find that most of the members had histories of drug problems or abusive family upbringings.
To one of the commenters above, submitting to someone and loving them are not at all equal. Submitting requires you to give up control to that person. Loving only requires you to have feelings for them.
While, yes, it is her life, I feel that women owe it to each other to talk about this stuff openly and think more critically about whether the choices we make personally benefit us as a whole. We are still treated like a minority in most of the world, and should be trying to empower each other, not rolling over and sighing “To each her own.”
But do you think modern women are going to be persuaded by this? I see your point about people trading one addiction for another; giving all of the control to drugs and then abandoning that to give all control to religion. So it is always a risk that vulnerable people might get sucked into something, but my point is that I don’t think she is going to be the catalyst for some big movement in that direction.
I will add, however, that it is sad for people indoctrinated into this mindset early, as in female children of those believers.
I think you might be confusing her with her former co-star Jodie Sweetin? Jodie is the one who has had lengthy drug problems, I don’t think Candace ever has.
Oh, oops, sorry, Candace! I could’ve sworn it was her. Didn’t mean to sully her name 🙂
Ugh, I could say so much about this–it’s not even funny.
Let’s go through a few examples, that I’VE seen of a ‘biblical marriage’–
A pastor and his wife lived next door to this really old guy, who was moving into a nursing home. He was selling his house, before he left. The pastor wanted to buy the house, so they could fix it up and sell it. The wife didn’t want to–because of the market i.e it’d take a LONG time to sell it, if ever, and she didn’t want the hassle. However, she went along with it, because he’s the man. Lone and behold, SHE WAS RIGHT. That house took YEARS to be sold–I’m thinking 3-5 years. And the only reason it was sold, was because a young guy from their church bought it, because he was thinking about getting married. If it wasn’t for him, they’d still have that house in their name.
One really big example is this young couple I know–they’ve been married for five years, have three kids (and she’s pregnant with another one). All of their kids have had problems, at birth i.e. they spent a significant amount of time in the NICU. HE works during the summer, collects unemployment during the winter, but last year started doing a paper route for a couple hundred bucks every 2 weeks–something like that. He is in school, and has another year to go.
She does EVERYTHING. I mean everything. She cooks, she cleans, she does the paper route when he can’t do it, she stays at home with the kids. And I don’t think he appreciates it one bit. A few years ago, their washer broke down. So she was HAND WASHING clothes (in between going to the Laundromat), because they couldn’t afford to buy a new washing machine (and this was in winter, too). She couldn’t afford a carseat cover, for her baby–she had to put a blanket over the baby’s body. They can’t afford any of those things, but her HUSBAND, thinks that they can afford a new wii, and all the latest technological sh-t.
I’m not even kidding–she’s been handwashing clothes for weeks now, and all of a sudden he goes out and buys a freaking wii at walmart. He buys different computers REGULARLY, I don’t know what he does with them, but he has all this money for shit that HE wants, and nothing for her. And she didn’t say one word to him–she complained to his mom about it. His brother was with him–if that was my brother I would’ve knocked him upside the head before we even got to the parking lot. But he didn’t take it back either–I mean, seriously? ugh. I used to just roll my eyes and try and avoid him.
Because he is an awful parent/husband–God. I don’t understand it. Because he’s lazy at home, he doesn’t bring home hardly any money–she started selling this weight loss stuff, called ACE….I hope she made money off of it.
But I’m going to avoid this thread, I think, because it makes me twitchy just thinking about it.
Re: the Wii-playing sperm donor–
Yes, he sounds terrible. But he has a penis, so clearly God thinks better of him than of wifey; what would she do without his guidance and direction? It’s her duty to make sure that he’s happy and unencumbered. He has a penis, after all!
//SNARKATHON
Virgilia, women are inherently vulnerable to this belief of submitting to their husbands, but even more so when their husbands are narcissists, as sounds the husband you described above.
My ideal man has always been Dan Connor from the sitcom Roseanne. He was the primary bread winner and acted as the head of the family. But we all knew (including Dan) who was really in charge and he had no problem with it. He wasn’t emasculated by her and he knew when she was happy, the rest of the family was too.
As a Christian, I find it hard to read these stories.
However they are in the minority but sadly it has defined your view of Christian marriage. I
know so many Christian couples who are still together and making it work. People that do good things together.
But again, Christians are just people who make mistakes, wrong decisions, etc. We are all sinners as Jesus said.
I hate how this whole philosophy of ‘we need just one head of the family or there is chaos’ seems to ignore the concept of COMPROMISE. Good for her if it works for her, I guess, but I could never just let someone else be in charge of my life and family and all of the major and minor life decisions that that entails. It creeps me out, TBH.
I think women with this mentality are creating two steps back for womankind, as we continue to fight for equality in this world. Submission means ” yielding to a superior force or to the will or authority of another person”. Why should a man be superior over a woman, because he has a “P” and she has a “V”? And why should a woman EVER give their power over to someone else, because the bible says so? This whole “obey & submit” mentality written into the bible by men, was because men were fearful of women rising up and being given too much power. Scriptures like that, would keep them in their place. For 1000’s of years it has worked and now look at the terrible uphill battle we’ve had to be recognized as equal. The bible was pro “slavery” and that was banned because we learned it was wrong and they should be equal. Should the same not be the case with other scriptures in the bible, such as a woman being viewed as lesser? Equality totally works in a marriage. You don’t need a Captain or a President. It’s about respect & equality and this is how it works: If one person says “No” to an idea or plan, you just don’t do it or you find a compromise. It’s as easy as that. You work together and ensure both are happy with the family decisions. Countless marriages are built on such a foundation and work beautifully.
Absolutely Eli, well said!
Actually even though the bible is written by men, if you read it well and go into the history when it was written you may think differently.
The bible was written in a time when women were seen as next to nothing by most societies, disposable, not Important. Yet Jesus and later Paul, treated the women as friends, as equals! Which was quite scandalous in that time.
If people had read and and listened to that message, maybe there wouldn’t have been 2000 years of sexist oppression.
If she is happy fine with me. But whenever a celebrity starts talking about how great their marriage or relationship is, I am waiting for some cheating scandal to come out.
A household needs one head of the house. Funny it’s never the woman who is deemed the head or even a smidge equal. These people make me so ragey.
Totally agree… can’t stand these people. Also, I never knew that she was Kirk Cameron’s sister! Crazy.
I can’t buy any of the religous text (I’m talking ANY religion)…but I will say, that I think in most marriages there is one partner who makes more of the decisions than the other…I make more decisions than my husband about the kids, the house, how we spend our money…not ALL, but more…and of course, if he disagreed with me about something, we would talk it out…
Really? Brad Pitt seems so dominant…
Ha! I had to read that more than a few times, before I got your meaning…..
Please–we all know AJ wields the crop in THAT relationship 😉
LOL No lie Virgilia. I feel submissive just looking at pictures of AJ! *shudder*
Actually it doesn’t say in any religion – be it Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Islam etc – that women have to be submissive and men have to rule. It is the men who twists the words to their own agenda and made the women be submissive and also made them believe that it was God’s wish.
Marriage doesn’t involve just one person, so why should there only be one “head”?
There shouldn’t, but it’s amazing to read all the justifications for it that people spout. Sickening.
ITA, daisyfly.
Marriage is a team sport. This woman’s beliefs regarding ‘submission’ are crap. She’s not relevant, except to those who are already drinking the kool aid.
I grew up in this culture and still primarily live in it. While lots of commentators are pointing out this horror story or that, I do think that is unfair because one horror story doesn’t necessarily mean a whole philosophy is bad. That being said, I agree that it is dangerous and crap. And I don’t think it works AT ALL. The way most people are- they will get away with what they can get away with. Both partners in a marriage need to know that they need to respect the other person because the person demands it. Saying you will submit to your husband is like an open invitation to let him run all over you. And honestly, even in marriages where the woman says she submits, I don’t really see her doing it. To me, it’s either just language with no meaning (isn’t the definition of a good marriage to work together) or it’s an invitation for a husband to run all over his wife. No thanks. Women don’t need to hear this. Women need to hear that they should be strong and independent. That’s what women tend to not be as good at.
You know, it’s whatever–the fastest growing belief systems are Atheist, None, and Undecided, and thankfully this crap doesn’t get promoted as much as it used to. Still, it thoroughly sickens me to know that people live this way. Why would anyone want that for themselves, their daughters, or their sons? None of them will ever know the happiness that comes with loving partnership and equality.
I don’t think very highly of men who want submissive women, because to me it means they are weak in character. It’s easy to cheat on, lie to, and manipulate a submissive woman–why else would you want one? If she challenges her husband he can just say he’s the boss and it’s over. Why do you think the book says that? Hint: it was written by men.
No family of mine has ever been or will ever be akin to the military. Militaries can operate just one way, but families are flexible and have many workable structures. Is her’s the easiest? You bet! But nothing worth having ever comes easy.
Nerd Alert, your post is so wise and incredibly insightful! I could not agree more with your sentiments. I’m looking for a man who will be my equal and doesn’t itemize our life together or be emotionally manipulative. Being in a loving relationship, to me, is all about compromise and trust and I don’t think you can have that when one person is a doormat.
Thanks, Asputter!
Really, I think it boils down to how we value ourselves. Many women were born and bred to value themselves as wives and mothers, and they adhere. Others were raised that way, but reject it; however, I hardly hear of women who were raised to be independent and later just decide they’d rather have important decisions made for them.
As an independent woman, it can be incredibly difficult to meet a man who was not raised to believe his penis is proof of good decision-making skills or who was raised that way and rejects it. This is a much more attractive viewpoint to hang on to than the female correlate, right? Because of this, I believe we are outnumbered.
I spent a lot of time with the wrong kind of man for me, but eventually found one who admires my strength and intelligence, and enjoys having an equal partner in his household. When people joke about what a handful I am, he just smiles because he doesn’t find me difficult at all. While most of our friends (who like the traditional gender roles) do that trash-talking, hate-joking about each other, marriage, etc., we are solid and stand as a team (with no captain). We make sure we’re always on each other’s side, and I wouldn’t have it any other way. Never settle. You’re worth a forward-thinking man’s love and respect.
But that is not how it works at all.
Maybe in your limited worldview, but in my limited worldview that IS how it works.
Edit.
Fair enough. I just disagree with you.
Sorry double post.
Ps. Can I just say that I appreciate you saying we all have a limited worldview? Never thought about that before. Thank you.
No worries! And thanks 🙂 I really appreciate a person who can disagree with me, but still tell me they found something I said useful. I’ve read the rest of your posts and I think it’s interesting how different our experiences are regarding this type of marriage.
You know, this is why I love the CB discussions. Not only are they far more mature and well-stated than anything else I’ve found on the internet, but they have the markings of true intelligence. The fact that so many of us can continually disagree, keep open minds, change our minds, and not be attacked for it is really awesome.
I’ve been on news boards, religious discussion boards, snark sites, and the rest. I’m continually amazed at the intelligent debate that goes on here.
Nerd Alert/ Asputter: Great posts. very well put.
Many (most) people take that line out of context – including most Evangelicals. Ephesians 5:22-23 makes it perfectly clear in the next line that husbands are supposed to love their wives to the point of giving up their lives for them, just as Christ gave up his life for the Church. In other words, it’s saying that the welfare of your spouse is supposed to be more important to you than your own, and that responsibility works both ways. It’s irritating when some, including Evangelicals, who sometimes think they have a lock on biblical interpretation, misconstrue this to mean wives are supposed to be “yes” women.
ITA with you. I happen to know several really awesome Christian men who are married to amazing women who respect & edify eachother (and not publicly complain about their “useless husbands, nagging wives”, etc) and these men are like putty in the hands of their wives. These guys would cut their hearts of of their own chests for their wives, never let them lift a heavy box (even if they don’t need the help) and generally treat them like queens and in turn they treat their husbands like kings. I think it is about mutual respect. Men are biologically wired to desire the feeling of respect and love from their wives and women to feel loved and appreciated/adored. It works for many people without necessarily demoting the wife.
OTOH, I know plenty of women who would feel quite offended if their husbands tried to carry something heavy for her or do something that would typically be a “man chore” because that would make them feel as if they were thought of as less capable, so they are married to more like-minded people. So I guess, it’s just better to marry someone whose views are more in line with your own and make you feel respected as a spouse.
As for me, we may not be all that old school-biblical but I don’t mind letting the hubs take the remote control and leave a few dishes in the sink so long as he continues to unload ALL the groceries, opening my door and spoiling me rotten! hee hee 😛
Epiphany… I agree with you and I am an evangelical Christian.
this is coming from a non-religious feminist, I really DON’T think she meant what most are thinking about submission. When you’re a strong minded person and you enter a relationship with another strong-minded person, someone ends up “taking the lead”. Maybe it won’t always be the case in her marriage, but she feels okay with learning to take a step back. Perhaps she trusts his judgement enough to take a step back and let him handle certain things. I honestly think people take a word or idea and sensationalize it way, way too much. She also said in a biblical sense because she already knew using that word would create controversy and tried to explain that she feels comfortable in a traditional wife figure. I don’t think she meant to say she was giving up her voice, her independence, or her ability to make decisions for herself…
She says he makes all the major decisions, so I think she has pretty much handed over control.
Agreed.
“how do you even get through the day without calling your man a million times to get him to sign off on a million different things?” – it’s not that narrow or trite. You dont call your hubs so he can decide what you’re gonna wear or eat for lunch. Wife isnt an infant. It’s about the man having the final say on big, stressful, family-affecting decisions, taking ‘the burden’ of tough decisions as well as responsibility for their consequences. That’s the evangelicals’ approach.
Btw I dont endorse this arrangement, but there’s a danger in over-simplification as well, by making this group into some sort of freakish religious ‘other.’
I will agree with that based on what she said in the interview – it’s not ALL decisions, but it sounds like when they have a big decision and differing opinions, his always wins.
If this sort of relationship works for some people, then it works – some people are happy to not have to shoulder the responsibility of big decisions, and others like to compromise and approach things more equally. What bothers me is the idea of living like that not solely because you found that’s what works for you, but because it’s what your particular religion instructs.
That’s what gets me. It’s not that she and her husband talked it out, and decided that when they couldn’t agree on something, then it was his decision–that’s something that you are automatically taught (in my experience). No discussion, nothing.
I dont think she’s saying that – she specifically says that she has opinions AND voices them, so there is a discussion. It’s not dictatorial. I know several RL evangelical couples like that, and the wives are very vocal, but the man ultimately makes the call.
Anna, I meant more about what I’ve seen. Like the woman I was talking about on the upthread–her dad has said, out loud, that before she married him, that he told her, that she had to obey him. There wasn’t any discussion about whether that works for THEM—it was just what she was taught. And the dad–my God. I’m sorry, if he was my dad, I would’ve left when I was eighteen and not looked back. Some of the stuff that she told me happened in their house–if it had been a few years later, he would’ve had CPS called on them.
I don’t mean to make it seem like I hate people who have this kind of marriage–but I think it should be your decision. The people that I’ve seen who go through this, often don’t really have a choice. Like the woman I spoke about earlier–she graduated highschool, and stayed home and homeschooled her siblings. She was never taught to even want anything more than marriage and kids. I know another woman who dropped out of college, just before her fourth year, because she was getting married. And it’s the same type of relationship. It just sits uneasy with me–I worry about what happens if the man dies, or decides that he doesn’t want you anymore?
Exactly
Agreed Anna. I would also not be marrying a man that I didn’t trust to make big decisions for our family.
Exactly. The right partner would not railroad his partner or abuse the authority his wife grants him.
What’s wrong with your decision making skills that you need someone else to come over and make them for you?
@LAK
you nailed it.
Uh…Kaiser? That’s not what the turn of phrase “biblical sense” means…
You got my hopes up for a much raunchier post…
Funny.
I find it so difficult to understand how people with any sort of critical thinking skills can adhere to a book that is full of misogyny and a product of people at a certain time in a certain culture with a certain mind set (both the original and the King James version). Why do people feel the need to follow such a truly disturbed book called the Bible at all? And please don’t try and rationalize the hateful parts with other parts. That makes no sense. It is a mess of a contradictions and in my opinion has more to do with humans and their social and political motives and desires, than it has to do with anything divine. The idea of women being less than and inferior is a common theme in the Bible. Use your common sense. Women are not less or inferior so why this nonsense suggesting that the women should in any way submit to anything? That in itself is extremely offensive and very telling of the mindset that created that book.
Yep. Got there a few years ago…Even as a kid, I knew it was all drivel. It’s come too far already, though, the best we can do now is not live by it or teach it without judging too harshly.
Well I am one.
Got a degree in Biology and in Criminal Investigation. Brought up in an Atheist- feminist household and learned to think for myself. Love and appreciate my parents by the way. Most of my friends are atheists or anti religion.
But at the age of 19 I heard the story of Jesus, what He said, what He did and it made sense to me. Of course I still have doubts sometimes, like when a story like this comes up. So I research it, do my homework. Why? Because I’m not a fool and when I choose such a life changing decision, I want to know at all times, that it was the right decision. That includes science.
And again and again it has proven to be the right decision.
She sounds as backwards as her homophobic brother.
Maybe I’m a little old fashion even though I’m 22 I don’t find it wrong to be a submissive wife, it may not work for everybody’s relationship but I know for me it works.
Doing what you want through an active analysis of risk and reward is different than complying with dictated dogma based on an interpretation of an archaic system of standing and value that is gender-based.
At 22, when your own emotional and biological development is still developing, you’ve decided to hand over to someone else??
Wait, how do you know her emotional and biological development is still (redundancy alert) developing? Talk about presumptuous…
Payton: it’s scientific fact. Google it. Many studies have been conducted in this area.
Okay, so I am a stay at home mother. My husband has a great job but he works about 60 hours a week. I do all of the house cleaning, all of the cooking, and take on the majority of responsibilities when it comes to caring for our son. So, I guess by definition, we have a very traditional marriage. However, if my husband ever told me that I had to just “take a seat” and let him make all of the decisions for our family, I would probably die laughing… after I kicked his overgrown, gym rat ass all over our house. Even if we do not always agree on things, my husband not only listens to but values my opinion. He even let me pick out our new t.v. last week! See, I’m a big girl! My point is that it is okay to consider your husband the “head” of your family. It is okay to have a “traditional” marriage. Don’t let said husband and marriage overrule YOU. It is completely possible to be married and still be an individual.
As long as her husband isn’t abusing her who cares. It’s not the type of life I’d want to live but who am I to judge.
Eh, it works for them and she seems happy enough, doesn’t seem controlled and really they’ve been married for 17 years – happily. In this day and age that is a rare occurence.
Still, 17 years! Wow! Really? She must have been young when she got married because I always related to DJ Tanner as a kid/teen.
🙂
“I wanted to do everything in my power to make my marriage and family work.”
Translation: I want to avoid conflict.
Hope resentment doesn’t build too much…
I don’t understand how you get that. I would do anything in my power as well. Is giving up on your marriage because of a conflict something we should be doing instead? Why get married if you wouldn’t want to fight for your marriage?
Meh. My fiance would be bored with me if I let him make all the decisions. He’s also said he wouldn’t respect me if I just let him have control. He values my input and ideas. He also says he likes his women feisty and opinionated.
Barf. This is just another example of religion making lemmings out of people. It’s so much easier for these poor souls not to think for themselves. First they are submissive to their religion then they are submissive to their husbands. I guess for some men this is the ultimate dream. Break free Candace (whoever you are), the bible is just a fairy tale–and not one where the damsel in distress is rescued.
Historically, Communist dictators have always made it a priority to kill off organized religion within their countries. Why? Because atheists are MUCH easier to control. They’re the real lemmings, Decloo.
Payton: once again twisting of facts. Communist leaders (and dictators) kill off organised religion so they can set *themselves* up as a cult like religion to be worshipped by the oppressed citizens.
Can we talk about her pinprick pupils?? Is she on something?!
She’s high on Jesus.
LOL!!!!
That’s so funny. You know she’d agree with you too.
Lol hey it’s your marriage sweetie. Whatever works.
This article creeped me out. I’m not religious at all of course but I find being “meek” to satisfy your husband and make him feel like more of a man to be ridiculous. Be yourself and let him love you for that. God their marriage must be so vanilla. Watching them bang would put anyone to sleep in sure.
People like this have such a limited view of women. Blah blah blah “it’s a different kind of equality,” it’s misogyny, and it’s baloney.
I just wanted to drop a quick note: If you consider it non-PC to disparage the Qu’ran out of respect for your Muslim peers, it should also be that way for the Bible as well. Any religious text that inspires love and respect from a large group of people should be (if not agreed with) at minimum RESPECTFULLY disagreed with. I have friends of all faiths and have visited churches, mosques, synagogues, temples, etc. and though I may not personally agree with all the teachings, I would never disparage anyone’s Holy book.
I will get more worked up over this than some silly Pocahantas costume, that’s for sure…
I think that you can respect that they believe in these books, that they have a right to, that if you visit the places of worship you behave accordingly, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that everyone has to show deference to interpretations nor the literal writings (text) thereof. In fact, I guess I’m confused by what you mean when you mention that they “disparage” the book.
There is a difference in deference and just common courtesy politeness. In no way does anyone have to bow down to any Holy book and wait to disagree with it until they’re in the next room, but yes…there are some people upthread saying stuff like, “the Bible is a mess, inaccurate, bullsh*it shoved down our throats”, etc, etc. It’s fine if you believe that…it’s very much your right to do so, but know that many people who respect and love this book will be offended. Religious groups should be = to ethnic/race groups in that we should not disparage any as a whole. So, you knew a pastor that was a jerk?…okay THAT GUY WAS A JERK. not all Christians. So you were raised in a strict religious household that made you hate the whole belief system? HATE YOUR OWN DANG HOUSEHOLD THEN, because I know plenty of beautiful well-adjusted people raised in spiritual households that are awesome adults today and still love to worship.
DTX, I think I responded as to why you see some of this anger. I don’t think it (the anger) goes to all Christians, and it probably has moved beyond polite, point taken. But as I said below, I think the wrath directly corresponds to the push for legislation that is, or at least is represented to be, Christian and dictated by the bible. I think if this wasn’t happening, you wouldn’t see people picking it apart. When some people push for legislation as a Christian mandate, then it does feel as though government is not allowing for “freedom from religion”. Like I said above, the bible isn’t something important to me personally. As long as I don’t have to abide by it directly, or some specific group’s interpretation, I would likely pay it no mind at all, and would be glad that it fulfills others’ lives. But I do think that *some* (not all) have used it as a tool to keep other people down.
I wouldn’t call something bullshit, DTX, but I do think that both the Qu’ran and the Bible are purely the works of human authors. I’m not trying to disrespect anyone’s beliefs when I say that. I’m simply stating my own, similar to someone who follows a religious tradition stating that they believe those texts are divinely inspired. I’ll be polite about it and won’t push my opinion, and I expect in turn that other people will be polite about expressing their beliefs.
I agree with arguing in a respectful manner…but as an atheist, the bible is just another fictional book to me. As fervently as you believe in Heaven and Hell, I believe in neither. Science is my religion.
Why can’t people have strong, but divergent beliefs?
I mean, you have a right to say global warming doesn’t exist, even thought I can show you scientific evidence that it does. I don’t view you as being “disrespectful” because you are debating about it or saying that the studies I’m showing you are “bullshit”. I will most definitely argue with you about it, but you have a right to disrespect it.
*shrugs*
Sorry, TheOriginalKitten, I just have to laugh at the comment about global warming…especially since we are in the middle of such insanely cold temperatures right now. And there is no valid scientific evidence of human caused global warming. But there is a ton of junk science out there that purports to be the real thing. A little more in depth study easily disproves this fallacy.
Oh for the love (of nothing).
SamiHami, global warming is the big picture. Climate change is the effect. That you think the term means that daily temperatures will just get warmer and warmer indicates that you have ZERO grasp of the concept and have never read a scientific paper on the subject, junk or otherwise.
If I were you, I’d look up the research funded by the (conservative Republican) Koch Brothers, who paid a skeptical team of scientists to carry out research that definitively refuted existing science on the subject, and who couldn’t. They had very, very solid hypotheses and lots of money, and still ended up confirming climate change. In the end, the Koch brothers basically paid big bucks to convert the few remaining skeptical ecologists and climate scientists.
I’m laughing right back at you, SamiHami. Anyone who thinks that “global warming” = the US instantly transforming into a tropical climate, REALLY needs to pick up a Science book, and maybe put down the bible.
Actually, just start with this http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/01/06/can-global-warming-be-real-if-its-cold-in-the-u-s-um-yes/
But you’re right-I’m sure if right wing conservatives and the IPCC and of course, the genius that is Donald Trump, say that global warming doesn’t exist well, surely they know better than NASA scientists.
How exactly did Superstorm Sandy happen do you think? Do some research and watch a Nova special.
Yes thank you DTX, entirely agree. If you don’t agree with the Bible, that is fine, but trashing it or people who do believe in it is extremely disrespectful in my opinion.
AGREED. Im really surprised reading all of these comments how disrespectful a lot of people are being about the people who believe in the Bible. Would this thread look like this if she were Muslim and talking about the Qu’ran? People may say yes but I highly doubt it.
I don’t care what this woman does with her life or what she believes, she is doing so with free will. But when the political arena actively revolves around enacting laws specific to some people’s beliefs, which can subjugate the rights of others who do not believe, it does open the door to criticism of said beliefs and the source document. That actually isn’t applicable here, because as best as I can tell, Candace is not advocating that all women adhere to her own principles nor is she trying to legislate it. I think the responses you see are a carry-over from other hot button issues that are pushed via religion and the bible.
We really don’t see such a tremendous push for laws derived from the Qu’ran. We do, however, see women commenting on the Taliban (not allowing girls to go to school) or in other countries where women aren’t permitted to drive and so on.
See, this phrasing annoys me. I consider myself a Christian but I don’t believe in the Bible (it was written by man and we are not without error) What I do believe in is GOD and Jesus Christ as my savior. The true answer escapes me right now but I believe GOD has written down exactly 1 thing, which is the 10 Commandments? I try my hardest to live by those, everything else to me is a tale to bring me around to their (the writers) way of thinking. It does not make me feel bad or less of a Christian to question what is in the Bible, that is why I was given a brain and free will. HE wants me to choose to make my way back to HIM, not have it force fed by a guy standing at a pulpit telling me what I have done wrong according to the “Good Book”. As for DTX’s comment about a book encouraging love and respect, well they’re right but the same book encourages shunning and war and that’s not how I want to live. I’m not trying to be rude, just trying to give my thoughts.
As for your comment about the Qu’ran I personally have never read it and would feel uncomfortable making assumptions and accusations about it.
@Blue Marie
I never specified that any Holy book encourage love and respect for you to respond that it also encourages X and y. I said that making disparging comments about a Holy BOOK that is loved and respected is bound to cause offense by those who revere it. I am not starting a debate about which book (if any) is correct or not, what it encourages or doesn’t. I am simply noting that some people on this thread are expressing their opinions (which they have a right to) in a disrespecftul manner by calling it “bullsh*t, fantasy, etc”. It’s okay to think this but there is a way to express it without being offensive. It’s cool to say, “It’s not for me; It’s not logical to me so I don’t follow it, I doesn’t speak to me; yadda yadda,” rather to say “It’s a misogynist piece of crap, etc”.
I just think it’s polite to agree to disagree, respectfully. I do actually love to hear people’s reasons behind their thinking but I automatically zone out when they are sanctimonious or rude about it.
Christians don’t cut your head off for disparaging Jesus Christ, though.
And I’ve never met one Muslim who would do it either. You know, not every Muslim is a blood-thirsty extremist… Sheesh!
There is a difference between respecting someone and respecting their beliefs. I do not remotely respect Bure’s beliefs, but I can respect her as a person. There is no reason to pretend to have respect for something one finds ludicrous, implausible, or demeaning. That would be disingenuous. If I told you I believed in unicorn gods would you respect that, and give it equal footing as any other belief system? You might pretend to, but you’d be lying. You’d think I was a nutcase. That’s how I feel about every religion. Why should I lie and say I respect someone’s belief in something that, to me, is ludicrous? Tons of reasonable, sane people adhere to these beliefs, and I respect them as human beings outside of that.
Yeah….this really.
To me (just my opinion), taking issue with the bible is not being disrespectful to a religious person, unless they are the author of the bible 😉
That being said, I think it’s always a good rule of thumb to tread lightly with stuff like this because people do get emotional about it. I haven’t seen any comments here that I thought were ‘over the line’ but maybe as an atheist, I’m just not sensitive to it.
OKitt, you do walk that line very well. I sometimes get too heated and cross it, then hurt someone’s feelings and I don’t like that.
As far as atheism goes, it really desensitizes you to this kind of thing, especially over time. When I realized I can’t believe in a god, no matter how hard I try, I went through a gamut of emotions. I was a teenager, so hormones contributed, but I had a long phase of being an angry, bitter atheist type. Thankfully, that’s over; it was miserable being pissed off all the time!
It was actually comment boards that swayed me to just chill the f*ck out. Someone suggested it would be a great writing exercise that I could do in short bursts. I was scrolling down a huge thread, some political story on a big news site, and I was just thinking, “these people are crazy,” but it wasn’t the religious ones or the conspiracy theorists, it was the angry people trying to change anonymous strangers’ minds. I took a step back and thought, ‘jeeze I just said that to my grandmother, it looks so bad in print,’ and I reevaluated my approach. By calming down and slowing down to think, I became less volatile instinctively and now I couldn’t get offended if I tried.
On that note, I love that celebitchy has one of the most level-headed comment forums I’ve ever seen. So unexpected–that’s why I come here. Really, I could care less about the celebs.
Anyhow, this old phrase, “respect a person’s beliefs!” is one that still really irks me because nobody really does it; they treat each other respectfully and discuss religion respectfully, yes, and that’s good. I do that, too, but I don’t pretend to lend any credence to their beliefs because it feels like lying.
I feel like almost every atheist goes through that phase. I never really had that because I was raised by two atheists and I’ve been a believer, so I never had the *transitional* experience that a lot of us go through.
I was, however, subject to a helluva lot of teasing as a kid growing up in an Irish Catholic town-and that DID piss me off.
Anyway, thanks for sharing your story, NerdAlert. I remember you saying you were an atheist but you never gave me the background of how that came to be.
The comment strand above was kind of comical to me in the sense that SamiHami was arguing with me about the non-existence of global warming (which is fine, I’m confident I’ll win that round) and saying scientists are wrong but within this thread there are commenters asking that atheists and non-atheists alike show deference to the bible and other religious texts. The reason why I take issue with that is the underlying insinuation that their beliefs are somehow more elevated, more “sacred” than my non-beliefs. So a religious person is fine to tell me that my opinion, based on science, is worth shit, but I can’t tell a religious person that their opinion, based on the bible, is worth shit, because their beliefs fall under the guise of “religion”. I feel like the protection that is expected to be granted because of one’s religion is not conducive to a fair and open debate between the religious and nonreligious and frankly, at the risk of sounding like a child, it’s just not fair. Sometimes I can’t help but think that the “don’t disrespect my religion!” is invoked to silence those of us who disagree.
An opinion is an opinion, yours is not more valid than mine nor is it more invulnerable because yours comes from a religious place and mine comes from free-thinking.
…and to be clear, I’m not necessarily saying that DTX said this…but I feel like it was implied in some of the comments here.
“By calming down and slowing down to think, I became less volatile instinctively and now I couldn’t get offended if I tried.” – Nerd Alert
Words to live by. I try my best to dispassionately reason and empathize, but too often I can stride right over to being strident!
DTX, I think the difference lies in the fact that Americans, in general, have a lifetime of exposure to Christianity, even if they have never practiced it themselves. Christian overtones are heavy in our political system and even the media. I was raised in a suburb of Chicago, which has the highest percentage of Polish Catholics than any other city in the world after Warsaw. I was raised on Catholic politics via the local news and all of my friends.
I never met a Muslim until I was working as a nurse in a multi cultural hospital. I had amazing conversations with him over the years, and had his inside views of the events of September 11th. By the way, his first name is Mohammed, and he received so many death threats after 9/11 that he allowed his wife to sway him into changing his son’s name (which was also Mohammed). I think that it’s easier to criticize those attacking Islam because your average American has gotten their knowledge through fallout of our wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, instead of personal experience.
Not going to argue with you Nerd & Kitten 🙂 . No point. You are entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own truth. In other words believe as you wish; that’s your right. But it doesn’t make you right.
And I think it’s amusing that you both seem to assume to know how I arrived at my conclusion. You seem to presume that I am un(der) educated and that I mindlessly believe what others tell me to. And it’s okay for you to think that, too. But again, it doesn’t make you right.
Never said you were undereducated or mindless and I apologize if you interpreted it that way. Some of the most intelligent people to walk this earth have been religious, including scientists (by the way).
Religion and science are not mutually exclusive and I think Galileo and Isaac Newton would agree with me.
I’m fine with agreeing to disagree, but I AM entitled to my own truth.
In fact, I live by it.
Now, let’s be clear. I did say you have no idea what you’re talking about with respect to global warming, because the comment you made displayed a very common misconception. When you reference a cold snap and use it to refute against global warming, you have already confirmed you don’t understand the concept. That is, to understand global warming at its basest level is to know that the main effect is erratic or extreme weather patterns, and not an increase in average daily air temperature. That would be called atmospheric warming; we are talking about the temperature of the EARTH.
So yes, you are very clearly uneducated about global warming, and your comment would imply that you mindlessly believed misinformation because you do not even understand the definition. We didn’t have to assume anything for that to be crystal clear. How can you “not believe in” something when you don’t even know what it is? Even though this forum is on a religious topic, I don’t think anyone called your faith into this discussion.
Since the Bible and those who laud its message as The Word has been used to strip away women’s rights and homosexual rights for decades, I have no respect for it or those who support it. If you want respect, keep your beliefs separate from our laws.
Decider is not a word & this is the article & her opinion on marriage in a nutshell
It’s stuff like this that’s causing problems with me and the church I go to now. I hate the way people get married there. You “hear a word” from The Lord about who you will marry, they hear the same word, and the boom engaged. You can date, but no kissing, hugging, hand holding, no dates at night. Every single married couple, once the wife gets pregnant, she quits her job and stays home with the kids who are all home schooled. Every. Single. One. And I’m talking like two dozen couples. And of course the whole submitting schpeel.
To each their own but it seems so…off. Are they really happy.
I love your name. I just started re-watching Will and Grace. My advice, find another church or leave church, easy peasy.
@Kiddo. Thank you. One of my favorite shows. I did for a while but I think that’s where in suppose to be for now. There’s still some good about it. I’m just gonna do me since I’m only gonna be accountable for myself at the end. If they have a problem with it they can take it up with God.
Oh BARF. (In the Biblical sense)
is no one going to commment that this is pavel bure’s (go cannucks) brother? they grew up in russia… yes its patriachal so i guess she needed a rationalization so the christian angle works for her??? Just guessing… pavel was purrrrtty
Oh honey.
No, just no.
In Russia, the woman works and runs the household. You’re thinking of old school Russia, which is no more the way we still do things than is the way Americans lived during Colonial times.
Most Russian women are superwomen. They will work a full job and still come home and take care of all of their household’s needs. Few Russian women are “submissive.” It is definitely the Russian way to put your husband in his place. I’m not saying that’s great, I’m not saying that’s bad, but I do not want this “19 Kids and Counting” submissive wife crap to somehow be attributed to how modern Russians live their lives.
@katja
Duly corrected for my generalization. definitely communism sort of ensured women worked as well as men and left an impression about equality on those societies. just that, as strong as we are, some societies let men get away with a bit more than others (yes the woman works but the food preparation is her duty too) and i thought of russia as being one of those.
I would say the increasing power of the Russian Orthodox Church is definitely causing some tension in this regard. It is very patriarchal.
This made me stop and think about my own marriage. I don’t think my husband makes any decision, not even what he’s going to cook for dinner, without consulting me.
The only place submission belongs is in the bedroom with a sexy beefcake 😉
Couldn’t agree more! *snicker*
Ugh. Whenever I hear scripture being quoted it’s like running my brain on a cheese grater. Whatever works for anyone but damn…keep the shit to yourselves. I also get that Christians have to ‘witness’….and bring us wanderers into the foal of everlasting life (my eyes could not be rolling any further back). It’s my opinion the Holy Bible is plagerized anyway….remember Horus? Anywho, if ladies feel the need to be wallpaper then who am I to criticize? One thing is certain though, this crap needs reversing. The man should submit to his wife and kiss the very ground she walks on. :p
Fold. lmao@foal
Screaming @ “foal of everlasting life” 😀
Hilarious.
Me too. Still giggling!
Sigh. Of course people can arrange their lives the way they want to, but I think it’s unfortunate that the media gives a lot of attention to this “the man is the absolute head of the household” view relative to the number of couples who hold it. It’s not just Candace’s marriage. It’s people like the Duggars and the Sister Wives. Then throw in all the celebrities like Miranda Kerr who feel the need to toss in some comments about letting their husbands be in charge even though their actual marriages are relatively equal or mostly take place in different cities, and you end up with a really inaccurate portrayal of marriage. Couples who make decisions together end up underrepresented, and you’re highly unlikely to see a man admit that his wife makes most of the important decisions, even if we’ve all met couples where this is the case.
None of this is Candace’s fault, of course. She can arrange her life how she pleases. But it’s perhaps unfortunate that people are willing to give her attention for making these kinds of statements. We wouldn’t give publicity to a washed up TV star from long ago for writing about how she worked very hard with her husband to divide responsibilities and decision-making equally, or one who admitted her husband took the backseat and let her career and choices drive the marriage.
When are these kind of Christians going to catch on that this medieval stuff isn’t attracting anyone to the Faith?
I don’t think they even have the intellectual or spiritual maturity to understand the damage they do.
As usual, when a topic similar to this comes up, I can count on a zillion ugly posts by people who can’t bring themselves to respect anyone that thinks differently than they do. Oh, it’s okay to be different as long as you’re different in the same way they are!
I think there is plenty of room in this world for people of lots of different systems of belief. I even think it would be nice if we could respect one another a little, even if we disagree with them. But (again) as usual, as soon as the dreaded “C” word (christian) is mentioned people go on the attack. Look at all the vitriol and ugliness in this thread! I can’t help but think that at least some of you are worse than what you claim to have such disdain for. You’re certainly not even a little bit tolerant of other peoples beliefs, are you now?
For the record, I am not a christian. I was raised without much of any religious training and as an adult I did choose to go to a christian college, more out of curiosity than anything else. That was many years ago. At this point in my life I have come to realize that the christian god does not exist and that Jesus, if he did exist, was likely a prominent religious leader during his time but certainly nothing more than that.
As for the tolerance point, it seems to get thrown around in discussions of this nature as if it’s a charge of hypocrisy (“They want me to tolerate X, but they don’t tolerate Y” or “They keep asking me to tolerate Z, but they don’t tolerate people who believe that Z is morally wrong”). I think it’s worth pointing out that not everyone entering a discussion from a liberal point of view believes that all actions and points of view should be tolerated.
There are any number of beliefs that I find repugnant, harmful, pointless, or merely incorrect. I fully respect the right of people to hold their own opinions without government interference and to voice them without fear for their safety, but that doesn’t mean I tolerate them. I’ll disagree and say why I find those beliefs repugnant, harmful, pointless, or incorrect, and depending on the strength of my disagreement and the subject matter, may choose to think less of the person in question or to disassociate myself from them.
It’s not a dichotomy where people either follow very traditional beliefs and judge those who deviate or are tireless advocates for tolerance. It’s perfectly possible to form an alternate ethical system and judge people according to that.
You make a very valid point. I don’t have tolerance for Warren Jeff’s brand of religion. It’s harmful to children. I don’t have tolerance for the Taliban and the way they treat girls and women. There are circumstances where people are coerced and forcefully made to adhere to religious restrictions and abuse. I can’t respect that or be tolerant of it. Having an open mind doesn’t mean ignoring bad and harmful practices.
It’s not a matter of not tolerating different opinions. I’m not advocating for her opinions to be censored. I’m not advocating for her lifestyle to be outlawed. I’m giving my opinion that her particular interpretation of the Bible is outmoded, sits terribly un-well with free-thinking, civilized people, and is not proven to attract people to the Faith. I’m not against her religion, in fact I’m on her side. I think she (and others like her) are off-kilter in their interpretation of the marital relationship as encouraged in the Bible.
I remembering hearing this “has to be just one head of the household” thing in grade school, but even back then I didn’t believe it because the history books showed examples of shared rule. Hierarchy itself is not an absolute either for decision-making. Check out traditional Quaker approaches to consensus decisions, for example. The old-style “unprogrammed ” Quakers don’t have pastors. People may decide to stand aside from a decision they can’t go along with, but mainly the process works pretty well to get all voices heard and come up with a decision all can live with. Much easier to do that with only two people, assuming both are sane and emotionally healthy. No need for a “one head” family.
It was obvious to me as a kid that the most successful families with two parents had equal partners at the head, even when they gave lip service to the “one head” nonsense. It also was obvious that a major problem in our house was that my mother believed she had to go along with every doofus thing dear old dad wanted and kept her mouth shut when she could clearly see danger ahead with his decisions. Equality doesn’t mean each person has exactly the same responsibilities – splitting things up doesn’t mean one person is submissive to the other. Candace can afford to think she’s submissive because she hasn’t yet been in a situation where her husband is not rational, very unwise, or downright abusive. So she can play the game of “he’s the head of the household and his decision is law”. This really seems like a variation of advice my mother gave me: “Never argue with a man” (after hearing me debate something with my brother’s friends” and “Always let the man win if you play a game”. Are men really that fragile emotionally?!? It seems disrespectful to treat them like that. Makes them seem like babies rather than grownups.
These are very good points.
I think if anything, the whole “the man is the head of the household, and women must be submissive” mindset only further reinforces the tension and discord between the sexes.
Women in these relationships treat men, as you said, as these fragile and near impotent creatures who can’t “do women’s work” all the while the men then regard the women as overly emotional and unable to make important decisions. It really can lock a couple into a state of reciprocal misogyny-misandry.
Honestly, the folks who have to publicly declare these kinds of relationship dealings strike me as insecure and egotistical.
I’ve commented all over this threat and many people won’t agree with me.
Final comment.
We all make mistakes, do bad things, etc. I believe we have to pay a price for all of that eventually. I also believe that Jesus already paid that price for me on the cross. Doesn’t give me a license to do whatever I want, however bad, it does make me want to be a better person.
can I just ask you something? HOW did Jesus pay for your sins? Like, how does a person actually do that? If you died for my sins, you dying wouldn’t really make my sins go away, it wouldn’t make things better. So how did Jesus dying have any effect on our sins? If it’s like, magical, or whatever, God is all powerful etc… why did his son have to die? Why not just go “poof” and our sins are forgiven? It just doesn’t make any sense… And if it is meant to be an allegory, can you please post a detailed explanation of what each part means?
As a no-longer practicing evangelical, Christ died for the sin of Adam and Eve and their progeny (i.e. mankind) as a sacrificial atonement. Man cannot be in the presence of God due to his sin (simply being human) and so Christ, as the son of God died one death on the cross fro mankind.
There’s a protestant/evangelical analogy that goes like this: Because each human is a decedent of Adam and Eve, they are condemned to be forever separated from God upon death (i.e. go to hell forever). Christ intercedes on our behalf before God, much like a defense attorney pleads his clients case in court before a judge, only the defense attorney then takes our place and our punishment. This only happens when the condemned believes that Christ “died for our sins”.
The big issues with this is that some denominations of evangelicals (Calvinists) argue that some souls/people are double predestined to go to Heaven, which means that regardless of what we do in this world, some of us are slated to get into heaven while others won’t. Such views create a logical dilemma because if man has free will, which is another tenet espoused by some evangelicals, concepts such as double predestination suggest that man’s free will is already hardwired a certain way by God before time. One cannot have free will when their actions have already been mapped out by another. It’s concepts like these where people really take up sides and start splitting hairs.
Wow…that story makes god sound like a dick.
I have no problem with a woman CHOOSING to be submissive to her husband, as long as 1.) He is not physically, sexually, or emotionally abusive, and 2.) as long as neither spouse teaches their children or others that that’s the way marriage ‘has’ to be.
However, that’s not the type of relationship that I would ever want for myself. I’ve never been a submissive person by nature, even as a little kid, and I’ve always believed that authority needs to be questioned and challenged. I don’t trust any type of rule or submission that is imposed on any group of people based on their gender or race. If a guy who was interested in me in any way even expressed the idea that he wanted me to be a submissive girl, the relationship would be over just like that and I’d warn my friends about his expectations too. I don’t want a relationship where my partner is like the Boss/Teacher, and I’m the employee/student, even if that person loves me or I love them. Ideologies like this are why I’m so picky about relationships with guys- before I go for any type of romantic or sexual anything with a guy, (other than maybe some flirting) his views on women are something I have to know about.
I also believe in freedom of religion and believe that people should be able to adhere to their religious customs, as long as there isn’t violence, oppression, or discrimination detached, and the individual is fully in control in consenting in this area- no coercion or fear of punishment or rejection from family members. But that doesn’t mean that I think any religion or it’s teachings are too sacred for criticism, and that’s not hatred or intolerance. Let’s be honest: religion can be- and has been- used by some people to control and oppress others. I do think it’s suspicious that books written by men, in a time when women were little more than property, tell women to be submissive to their husbands. Like it or not, this ideology has been abused.
I meant attached, not detached.
She’s just another idiot looking for her 15 minutes …..
Everyone has all these insightful and intelligent religion discussion comments and I can’t believe that I didn’t know Candance Cameron and Kirk Cameron were siblings!
I have never heard of this woman but man, those pupils of hers are serious pinpricks. She looks like she is on opiates of some description.
Man, these god-botherers really irk me.
Jesus loved everyone, regardless of sex, race, creed or religion. End of story.
Meh, at least Candace knows how to phrase things without sounding like a tone-deaf idiot, unlike her brother. She’s saying what her choice is, and that she knows not everyone would want that arrangement nor is she telling us that everyone needs to do it (although I would be curious to know if she thinks all Christians should do it). And she’s also not implying the rest of the world is doomed to hell if we don’t agree with the idea. Take note, Kirk.
I would never put all the responsibility for taking care of the family on my husband. That would be unfair to him. It isn’t just women who are hurt by gender inequality in relationships. Do you think most men would want to be solely responsible for making a bad decision that hurts the whole family? Or that they would be happy with having the equivalent of a “yes man” as a spouse, instead of someone who will be honest if an idea has serious flaws? No. No they would not. It’s not about one party being domineering and the other submissive, it’s about having a mutual partner to lean on for support and encouragement. If one partner is intentionally submissive in all matters, that support and encouragement don’t mean much. There is a reason the men of the 1950’s didn’t want their wives to worry their “silly little heads” about financial issues. Being the only decision maker is a lonely burden.
Shannon, I think the kind of person who believes that he should be solely responsible for making decisions that affect his wife and family is the same kind of person who believes that he never makes the wrong decision. Ie the controlling narcissist.
Should someone tell her that the President doesn’t actually run the country, but rather that he (and someday, she) is checked by the power of the US Congress and Supreme Court? Or that places where there is one “head of authority” generally are not fabulous places to live?
Heck, even Danny Tanner’s authority was checked by Joey and Uncle Jesse.
Now that’s funny.
Should someone tell HRC that a president isn’t necessarily someone who runs a country? There are presidents of companies, universities, clubs, etc. 😉
bottom line: it’s their marriage, she’s happy, he’s happy, and as long as she’s not being emotionally or physically abused it’s sounds fairly healthy. We tend to forget that from the dawn of written history of man until just about 1970-1980 women had VERY much been subjugated by most men. The nice thing about the age we live in now is that women have a choice whether they want to be submissive, be an equal, or lead in a relationship. Speaking from my experiences with my marriage of 20+ years, my wife started out being very submissive but over the years and with experience we both have areas in which we trade off leading, following, etc. A healthy marriage will always allow for change and some back and forth. The whole “submissive” thing is not dangerous, what is harmful is when one person completely runs rough shot over the other without their feelings in mind. As long as both parties are fine with everything then great, it works for them. I do though in general think the “standard rules” for love as defined by modern American religion though are a bit antiquated, but hey when you’re young you have the luxury of changing your perspective down the road.
Might be worth pointing out that humans have a long history of disaster following when one group of people is “submissive” to another group of people, by law or by religion. It really isn’t a safe approach for adults. You can luck out and get a benevolent master, but it’s a huge risk.
There is simply nothing in our biology to justify thinking that men are more capable of making life decisions/family decisions than women. However, women definitely have a major biological edge in dealing with stress and more easily seeing complex facets of situations (brain structure differences in our favor). We tend to be much better multitaskers as a result. These real differences do not suggest patriarchy as a good idea… Mother Nature simply hasn’t put as much effort into human males for obvious reasons – the men can afford to waste their time in pointless fighting, for instance, because they don’t get pregnant or breastfeed. So women absolutely have to have it together or the species would never have survived, they are biologically crucial for the early stages of the next generation. I’m convinced that nurture can overcome nature if we teach our children differently and develop their skills regardless of gender, so all is not lost for the men. But it just makes no sense to put the frailer sex (men) in absolute charge of things, if you feel you must choose one or the other.
If you read the first part of her quote it’s disturbing:
“My husband is a natural born leader. **I quickly learned that I had to find a way of honoring his take-charge personality and not get frustrated about his desire to have the final decision on just about everything.** I am not a passive person, but I chose to fall into a more submissive role in our relationship because I wanted to do everything in my power to make my marriage and family work.”
Uh, “the final decision on ** just about everything**”? — sounds like a control freak/jerk to me.
I was raised conservative (“Bible believing”) Christian and this is indoctrinated into you from day one. So I know exactly what she’s talking about. Basically the marriage relationship is supposed to reflect that of Christ loving the church. The husband is to love and lay down his life for the wife as Christ loves the church, and the wife submits to the husband and lives for the husband, as the church submits to Christ.
I never bought any of it, but suffice to say, some Christian women who believe this way have it better than others. I think Candace has it bad. Micro managers are tedious.
If I let my husband make all the decisions in our household we’d be living in a cardboard box on the street and eating out of garbage bins. Sounds like laziness to me to get out of doing the work to make your relationship equal. Each to their own, but it wouldn’t suit me. I like to be heard and it makes me feel good that in my relationship we’re both heard and we’re both happy and not letting one person do all the work.
I hear there could be a few open GOP seats in 2016… Deejay for president with Herman Cain as her VP.
Any religious organization that does not allow women in leadership roles and do not see women as equals should not be deciding how women behave in marriage. Period.