Here are some photos of Lena Dunham outside of the Good Morning America studio in NYC yesterday. Tuesday was also the beginning of Lena’s press tour/book tour for Not That Kind of Girl. I have to say… I listened to Lena’s GMA interview as I was editing the photos, and this is probably the most I’ve ever liked her. Believe it or not, I think Lena might be better in radio/TV interviews than she is in print. Lena talked to Robin Roberts about body image, how “diet” is a four-letter word and how she was in therapy at a young age. Here’s the video:
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My least favorite part? Where she talks about people treating her differently as a blonde.
As more media outlets have gotten their hands on the book, there are going to be a lot of think-pieces and assessments about Lena’s message to younger women. Apparently, in two chapters of the book, Lena describes how she was raped in college. Her story involves being drunk and sad and being taken advantage of by another college student. Time Mag had an interesting write-up of that part of Lena’s book, linking it to the newest initiatives and college policies dealing with campus/college rape and sexual assault. What makes Lena’s story a rape story, as Time points out, is that she was too drunk to consent.
Photos courtesy of Fame/Flynet.
i haven’t read it but I feel for anyone who feels violated in that way. Lena’s got a lot of courage.
I can’t help but get the feeling this book is a whole assortment of “poor me” stories. I can’t take anything this girl says seriously any longer. Having said that, if her rape story is true, that’s horrible.
I agree with every word you said!
I’m reading the book and it’s not. But continue making statements about things based on your “feeling”.
Also – why is it necessary to doubt her story? If you read it, you’ll see she doesn’t have an agenda: she’s not pressing charges, she’s just describing an experience. After she’s the experience, she’s a bit in denial at first, and doesn’t know how to articulate what happened. She’s also embarrassed.
The takeaway is that even if you consent to sex with someone (although she doesn’t remember doing so), that doesn’t mean you consent to rough, painful, degrading, condom-less sex, which is what she experienced. It’s a good lesson for everyone who thinks rape is black and white.
I heard her talk about it this morning on Howard Stern. Her point was that just because a girl makes out with you doesn’t mean that sex is automatically following. And secondly that even if sexual activity happens, that doesn’t mean it’s a green light for all types of sexual activity. It had me thinking of Kobe Bryant. She’s not my favorite person at all but she’s right about this. We need to stop saying “why did she drink so much and let him in her room?” And say “we need to teach boys that they don’t have the right to do that?” I like the “yes means yes” slogan.
Ok, but what if you’re both too drunk to consent? What then? How are guys supposed to know how drunk is too drunk? Sometimes it’s obvious but people have different tolerance levels and definitions. This issue is a lot more complicated in real life.
It means the same thing it means in every other area of law. Too drunk to know that driving isn’t okay? Still guilty of DUI. Too drunk to know that shooting someone isn’t okay? Still guilty of murder. Someone has to be the “aggressor” in a crime. With rape, it’s the person who decides to do something without the consent of the other person-insert penis somewhere, for instance. There is no such thing as being too drunk to get consent. I couldn’t consent to not rape her is not a thing one can claim.
You know someone is too drunk to consent when you ask them “hey, can I have sex with you?” and they don’t answer or can’t answer affirmatively. Yes means yes.
marigold that is all true but how do you know after everything happened who was the aggressor? thats not related to Lenas case at all, general question.
@marigold: yes there is. I’m saying both parties are black out drunk. I’ve been near a situation like that. Neither actually remembered having sex but know it happened. I was at the party and both were into each other sober. Neither remember anything after a certain point. I’m not expressing this right in text and I’m angry about the subject in general because I know someone who’s been there, and from what I saw the playing field was level, no one was the aggressor, but he automatically became guilty of a crime, and his partner wasn’t the one who accused him even. I’m dropping it. I’m not trying to defend rapists or aggressors at all. It’s hard to explain in limited text form. But a bad decision does not equal rape.
If one party feels violated, then the culpability is on the party who advanced the sexual activity. If both parties are drunk, but neither feels violated, there is no issue.
This is a straw man argument usually advanced by MRA-types.
@InvaderTak–That’s why we need to teach our sons that if you are in doubt in the slightest, assume the answer is no. Teach them respect. Teach them to know someone before they take that step. If they know someone, they will know when the girl is drunk because she will be acting differently than usual. Teach them to error on the side of caution every single time. Teach them the value of sex.
Yes, kids make mistakes. Yes, sometimes a boy thinks a girl is consenting when she isn’t really able to. Sometimes girls put themselves in bad situations. That’s why we need to teach our kids what informed consent really means.
It almost sounds as if the default is, “Well, dunno, so full speed ahead.”
If you’re at all doubtful you have consent…..you don’t. The end. It’s not at all difficult unless one’s looking for excuses.
When in doubt, back off.
They can’t both be equally drunk. There’s no such thing as accidental rape. Men and women metabolize booze very differently.
Read David Lisak, who talked to actual rapists. They made every excuse in the book but they knew EXACTLY what they were doing——-and EXACTLY what to say.
What you say is true, I just wonder why college has become just one more place for people to all learn to treat each other like sh*t.
@Lucinda: in the situation I’m talking about they were both equally drunk and sloppy. The guy was taught all those things. He has a good eduacation and good upbringing and has the utmost respect for women. He does not need any re-education. He was black out drunk and so was she. I witnessed their actions that night. He was not aggressive, and she didn’t make any indication she wanted him to stop. In fact the opposite. But he still got accused of a crime, by someone else (a friend of hers that she apparently told after the fact that she didn’t want to have sex that night as she was in a relationship he was unaware of) And he got arrested for it. The charges were dropped later because she didn’t accuse him. He has since moved out of state because of it. When he had the capacity to make rational decisions he believed he had consent. And according to his partner he did. Again, they were both incapacitated because if alcohol. He didn’t default to “full speed ahead”.
I don’t know what MR A stands for, but I’m not trying to make a straw man arguement. This happened, and it was unjust. It’s one specific incident.
Lucinda, i dont know why you automatically assume its the man who is the aggressor. im talking about this because i was in such a situation. we liked each other anyway so it wasnt a big case, but i was told by my girlfriends that i was “all over him” when we both were very drunk. there is no way one of us could have known who did it if no one saw us.
so basically if the guy i was with claimed he felt violated than i was a rapist? i dont understand that. no one can give consent but how can then one person be the aggressor? i dont think its always that clear cut.
consent can not be given because you are drunk but that also mean that you can not make a clear decision if you see consent or not. this is not about defending myself as the guy was ok with it, but how could i have seen if he gives consent when i practially didnt know what i was doing?
i am trying to understand this. both people are drunk enough to pass out and dont remember anything but one person is at fault and the other is the victim?
Being intoxicated is not an excuse for committing a crime. “I was too drunk to know better” isn’t a defense, or an excuse to blame the victim for the actions of someone else.
The “we were both so drunk, she raped me/we raped each other” is a fairly new scenario that MRAers (men’s right activists) have come up with to claim that women are equally capable of being sexual predators to the opposite gender. It is a straw man argument because it is meant to obfuscate the reality that most women are victims of sexual violence by men, and – even more importantly – that most men are victims of sexual violence by men as well.
TheCountess: the question still stands: how do you know who did what if both people dont have a clue? i dont get it. what if the aggressor wakes up without knowledge and feels violated? in my personal life as you can see above we both would have had no clue. as you know as long as there is no force used there wont be traces to see who did what with whom.
Number 1) I am not a men’s rights activist. I am not trying to obscure the issue. Yes women are the victims of the vast majority of sexual crimes.
2). I am trying to put forth a a situation that I was a witness to, that ended badly. A friend of the hook up’s accused him while claiming she was the one he hooked up with. The cops had to treat the accusation seriously based on the info they had at the time ( Arrest happened before they got the correct info). The hook up didn’t accuse him of anything. She just said she regretted doing it. Neither of them remember the actual act, but do know they were fooling around before. How is that rape?
My comments and arguements only pertain to this particular incident that I was a witness too and involved in later (cops questioned me). Please don’t judge my entire set of values on it. And I don’t know if I’m describing this so that it’s clear. Started this comment thread because I’m angry about the situation. And its the internet. Made for making bad descions.
I may get some flak for this, but personally I think that sexual assault has a pretty distinct power structure in there. Two very drunk, equally out-of-control individuals engaging in a sexual act that they regret later is problematic, but the nuances of consent are so blurred at that point that I hesitate to outright call it rape unless there is a confirmed failure to respect consent. Saying that the man is ALWAYS responsible is reductive and strips women of sexual agency and is the equally abysmal reverse of “women should be careful.” It’s also heteronormative and ignores the reality that men are sometimes sexual assault victims, too. If one partner is significantly less inebriated than the other, then it’s absolutely an issue of violated consent, but both parties…it gets dangerously abstract. It’s one of the few situations where I think it’s acceptable to say, “Your friends should be watching out for you.” And that goes for both men and women, because guys should be telling their friends “you/she/he is too drunk to be making this decision” as much as girls do to each other.
One of the problems with our culture is that we view consent as concrete and immediate when it exists fluidly throughout the course of the act. If I consent to sex with a condom, for instance, and the man takes it off midway through the sex act, he is now raping me. If I say stop at any point during the sexual encounter and he/she doesn’t, then it’s also rape. Sex is overwhelmingly nuanced and individual, and the way we portray it in popular culture is so oversimplified that it often takes these issues off the discussion table where they belong.
Heather, I don’t think college has become a place where people learn how to treat each other like crap…I tend to think that bad behavior was most likely learned long before then. The environment — for most kids, it’s their first time away from home — just tends to exacerbate it in those who sadly have not learned to be decent and respectful.
Sara: That is a straw man argument. If no one has a clue, who is the complainant?
Simple answer.
Much like why we have legal age limits. Because there’s a part of the brain that isn’t developed enough or functioning well to make rational choices.
In regards to sexual assault, if either party is under the influence of alcohol consent is not freely and clearly given. Sexual contact without consent is sexual assault. I’m always unsure as to why drunken/intoxicated sex is always considered a given – that it is just inevitable. It isn’t.
Back Door Bryant raped the girl, pure and simple. And he called HER to his room. She had to go because she worked at the hotel.
TheCountess: im just repeating what you said above: “If one party feels violated, then the culpability is on the party who advanced the sexual activity.”
you can not have a clue what exactly happened and not a clue who was the aggressor and still feel violated. so how do you know who the aggressor is? its not as simple as saying that the violated feeling person is the victim because it could also be the aggressor who was intoxicated and is convinced to be the violated victim.
example: person a and person b are totally drunk, make out and pass out on each other, wake up and have no clue what happened. how do you find out who was the aggressor? who is the victim? what if the aggressor does not remember and feels like the victim because the memory is so blurred it feels like that? memory loss is very common when you are very drunk.
it would basically be: whoever complains first wins.
You’re hitting every square on the rape apologist bingo card. You’re making excuses for rapists. Why?
I like her. I can’t help it!
I started watching Girls because of all the hype about it….negative and otherwise. I love the show and I love Lena Dunham. I think I like her so much because she does her own thing. She wears what she wants and doesn’t care. She’s not ashamed of her body.
I think she looks great in this interview…love the dress, shoes. Her hair looks cute. Go Lena!
I (mostly) like Lena (her fashion choices can be, um, troubling) and I really like “Girls.” The hatred aimed at her is truly mystifying.
I think the opposite you see,
To me it seems like Lena wears not what she wants to wear, but what looks bad on her because it’s attention grabbing. You can’t be happy in clothes too small for you and that make you look like crap.
She surely has a stylist or at least a make up artist or a hair stylist and I’m sure they’re all going for the ‘hot mess effect’ because otherwise she’d be just one in the bunch. she wants reactions, she wants to be the victim so she can sell more books and more crappy tv shows.
Her show is dull, badly written and really sloppy.
She reminds me a lot of my cousin. She is an only child and anyhting that happened to her is always bigger, better or worse, more important and unique.
i agree with everything you say.
Meh, most twenty somethings have a skewed perspective in our culture, because of how long we’ve lengthened teen hood, straight into the late twenties now. Your cousin isn’t the exception, and neither is Lena. And everyone dresses for a reaction, and her desire to be contrary is pretty normal too for her age. But yeah her show is boring.
I knew little about her other than she was on Girls, dressed badly, and didn’t have a problem with nude scenes. I haven’t watched her show, but saw her on The View yesterday. I was impressed by her. She seemed thoughtful and well spoken. She and Rosie discussed their mutual friend Nora Ephron, and I ended up liking her.
I found her incredibly amnoying as usual in that interview. She just seems to think that all her experiences are so special, and her analyses of these experiences so profound. But she’s just totally normal.
I have eating issues. Most women do.
I have had episodes of sexual aggression toward me. Sadly, most women have.
I’ve changed my look and gotten a different reaction. Most women have.
I have a secret desire to play Eponine on Broadway. Also not unusual.
Are some of these things important to talk about? Yes. Is Lena breaking new ground by bringing them to the table for the vey first time in history? No. My issues with her, and the reason that she is so annoying, is that she seriously acts like she’s doing some groundbreaking thing and we should all be amazed at how special she and her experiences are. Ughhhh she bugs me so bad.
The big problem, though, is we take these horrible things as a given for nobody to talk about and acknowledge. Again, I don’t think Dunham is funny, but it’s cool that she brings attention to these issues.
“we take these horrible things as a given for nobody to talk about and acknowledge”
Such a very important point. Thank you for stating it so perfectly!
Also, in talking with my guy friends, I don’t think THEY know how often these things happen to women because women don’t typically discuss it with them, unless they are extraordinarily close. Casual male friends of females or male coworkers aren’t going to know that so many of the women in their lives have experienced these things.
I think sometimes women take for granted what we experience and think it is common knowledge, when it isn’t always.
THIS.
I was going to say something about “only child” syndrome, but bigger.
According to her all her struggles and difficulties are special and when she talks about them it’s because it’s a national problem and she is raising awareness.
Something nice: I appreciate she is very well spoken, and it’s good she speaks about her awful rape experience, now THAT is something really important, not people’s reactions about her blonde hair.
It’s sounds like your frustrated with the media system then. She would only tell these stories when asked/invited, etc. It would be the same thing if you or I were interviewed for a newspaper. Some reporter heard that we ______, and so we shared our experience. A reader of that article would have the same reaction, ‘scooping litter is not groundbreaking’, but technically it’s the journalist that incorrectly assumed the readers would find it interesting. Does that make sense? Further, if it’s our job to promote our show, using parallels to our lives, we could just as easily say that despite her life being boring (rape aside), that she does an earnest job of promoting the show (and boring parts of her ordinary life).
I could take or leave her, really.
I do disagree about the fashion though. She may have a stylist but she has her own taste. All of us wear what we wear because we think it either reflects us as an (mass produced) original or compliments us, not for attention (unless you wear trucker hats or 6inch platform hooker shoes, and then I can’t possibly defend you). I think it’s unfair to say ‘she wears ugly clothes for attention’. Nope, she just has poor taste.
I’m not a fan of Lena’s humor/work, but I think she’s brave for speaking out about her rape and she’s a strong, smart voice for women in entertainment and in general. So I like her as a person, which is probably better than liking Girls, right?
This isn’t a comment on the rape story…just her.
I have a hard time trusting her — she doesn’t seem genuine to me.
Agreed; everything feels so contrived simply to provoke a response and focused solely on painting her to be the biggest victim, the most neurotic, with the most problems that no one has ever faced.
Eh, I find her annoying and I find her show annoying too, but any public discourse on rape and the many manifestations it comes in is always helpful. She is famous, when she talks people listen, so at least in this instance she is using her situation for good.
And I could care less about her motivations for talking about this, it’s the action in the end that counts. And this action of talking about something substantial instead of something silly or self absorbed is alway preferable.
I haven’t like her but my feelings are changing. I didn’t see the GMA piece but I heard her on Fresh Air the other day and I really enjoyed hearing everything she had to say, which wasn’t related to her rape experience but mostly about the process of getting her show made. I thought she was smart and articulate and funny and that really surprised me.
I’m sorry to hear what she went through but I’m glad she’s bringing attention to the rampant problem of rape and sexual assault on campuses.
I heard that Fresh Air interview too, and turned it on a few minutes into it, so I didn’t know who was being interviewed at first. Agreed, her answers were thoughtful and insightful. Made me want to watch her show, even after hearing so many negative things about it.
The “rape card”, seriously? Wow. No wonder some victims fear telling anyone, wouldn’t want people to think they’re playing the “rape card”
hiccup
I don’t watch Girls and have no desire to–so based solely on reading about her on sites like this, seeing her on talk show interviews, etc., I kind of like her just because she’s different than everything else her age being promoted by TPTB. The fact that she’s different–that she’s outspoken about this or that, that she talks a lot about herself, that she may have “connections,” and that she doesn’t conform to Hollywood’s body type or fashion standards–rubs some people the wrong way, and I get that. But I’m still thrilled to have her and her crazy culotte sweats pre-tape pap walk on here because I just get so burnt out on, say, photos from whatever fashion week is this week.
I really didn’t like Lena at first, but her show resonates with me in a lot of ways that I didn’t expect. I wouldn’t go as far as saying that she is the voice of my generation, but I like her realistic take on relationships and friendships.
I think the blonde isn’t well suited for her. I went blonde last summer, not platinum, but more of a caramel blonde and I actually found I received less attention, naturally I have almost black hair. I think it’s a mental thing, maybe because she feels more attractive with blonde hair, men perceive that and respond to it, but she actually looks much better with the darker hair style.
I heart Lena. I think she is really smart, funny and has a lot of interesting things to say. I hope she is around for a long time. Many female celebs her age seem to be nothing more than pretty dress up dolls. She is out there creating books, television shows and sparking meaningful dialogue about real issues. Some people may not like her but the fact that they talk about her still means they are paying attention, which tells you something about her impact.
I was at the dentist yesterday and the TV in the room was on The View, where she was a guest. She was more engaging as a guest than I was expecting. Also, I was surprised how great her hair looked in that lighting!
I think she looks absolutely lovely in the red sweatshirt photos. Why does she try so hard to ugly herself up? I know that appearance isn’t everything, but it seems designed to get people talking about her looks so she can hit back with how misogynistic we all are.
This is shallow and off topic, but I really like her hair pulled off her face – so much more flattering that even the platinum doesn’t bother me. And that smile in the bottom pics looks puckish and genuine. It’s the first time I haven’t wanted to slap her.
The sad, sad truth is that most women experience some form of sexual assault or violence in their lives. That should not, nor does it normalize nor minimize that experience. Speaking out is so important.
In my opinion, I don’t think men can conceive of that, or comprehend living with that reality. How could they? I’m not suggesting men are not subject to abuse, sexually or otherwise, but there is no equilibrium there.
I love Lena Dunham. I think she is very smart, brave and talented and has clearly put in a lot of work into herself and her craft and she’s reaping the rewards. I love that she is bringing attention to really important issues that need our attention. I just don’t understand the vitriol against her. Some of the things I read about her, are frankly disgusting. Can she be frustrating? Absolutely. Is she perfect? No. But I think that’s why I love her. She’s not selling herself, she is being herself. Unapologetically. We need more role models and women like this in popular media.
I’m not arguing the specifics of consent, but as the mother of a son, this thread is terrifying. I’ve taught him right (he’s 8, so I’m not actually talking about sex, but with ANYTHING, it’s been no means no, stop immediately), but seriously do I just need to keep him away from college? Tell him NEVER to drink? I can do a lot to prepare my son, and outright rape is never ok, but does he need to have signed consent forms?
Never mind the story.
Someone’s been on a mega slim down since that frou-frou dress disaster. Doesn’t even look like herself.
I can’t stand that ‘oh, I’m such an advocate for women being happy no matter their size. Everyone should love themselves.’
Then they go and drop 20 kg.
Normally I think she is so frumpy, but that haircut & color look great on her – the best she’s ever looked.
I dislike Lena but I wish she had called out the name of the guy. She should use her voice to ruin his life. The idea of someone violating Lena is revolting. If I were as famous as she is, I’d call out a few dirtbags. Name names. She’s so disliked already I don’t think she could manage to be more hated if she called out a guy.