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It’s been a long time coming, but Kevin Smith’s Dogma was back in theaters this past weekend. Kevin, who finally got the rights back to the movie last November (Harvey Weinstein held it hostage for 25 years), kicked off a Dogma comeback tour on Easter Sunday. The tour culminated in DOGMA: Resurrected, A 25th Anniversary Celebration!’s release. He’s also in the middle of writing a sequel, which will likely include cameos by Ben Affleck and Matt Damon. In honor of Dogma’s re-release, Kevin sat down with Rolling Stone to tell some amazing stories about the movie’s (not-so-immaculate) conception, how that all-star cast came to be, and what he realized about how his faith tied into his mental health. It’s a great article, but, as you know, brevity is not Kevin’s thing. Here are some of the highlights, but I really recommend reading the whole thing.

Dogma’s conception: This is a film whose writer and director believed in the cosmology depicted. Dogma was [my] way of questioning the church while at the same time singing praises to the faith…Young Kevin Smith, this kid wanted to show you what Sunday service could be like if it had anal jokes in it. I started writing the script in ’91, ’92, even before I started writing Clerks…But as a concept, Dogma started taking root way back in Catholic school, and even before that, just going to church every Sunday with my family, growing up to be the altar boy who giggled every time the priest would say, “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.”

Ben Affleck really wanted to be Bartleby: Ben had wanted to do the movie from the moment he read the script. He had taken a train down from Boston to New Jersey to pick up the first half of the Chasing Amy screenplay. We hung out all day, then I gave him pages, and I was bringing him back to the train station. He’s going, “It’s only 60 pages. It won’t even get me to Connecticut.” So I said, “Well, I got this script I wrote called Dogma.” When he got back that night, he called, and I said, “What did you think of Chasing Amy?” And he goes, “Oh, guy falls in love with a lesbian, real nice. But this Dogma screenplay is incredible, man!” He goes, “I’m gonna play Bartleby.” I said, “Well, that’d be sweet, but honestly, it’s probably gonna be a movie star.” Thanks to Good Will Hunting and, to a lesser degree, Chasing Amy, he became a movie star. When we’re on set, first moment, we’re shooting his first take. I’m right by the monitor, and Ben leans over to be in my eye line to catch my attention. He frames his face with his hands, and he goes, “Movie star.”

Alec Baldwin was originally offered Azrael: Originally I had [Affleck] and Jason Lee in mind to play Bartleby and Loki because they’d just done their buddy thing and Chasing Amy. Jason had been offered a movie in France, so he bowed out. Then we wound up moving our start date by months. He came back and goes, “Can I be in the movie still? I said, “Well, we got the part of Azrael, who’s our bad guy, a demon. We’re out to Alec Baldwin, but I don’t think he’s going to say yes.” Jason wound up playing the part.

Hans f-cking Gruber worked for scale: I heard from Jon Gordon, our executive at Miramax at the time. He goes, “You’ll never guess who was in here today. Alan Rickman.” I said, “Hans f-king Gruber was in the building, man. Did he blow it up or what?” And he goes, “All he wanted to talk about was whoever made Chasing Amy. He loves the movie, he wants to work with you. I said, “Let’s send him a script for Dogma.” He was the fastest yes I ever got from an actor in my life. We just put up, on my Instagram, Alan Rickman’s deal memo, offering him the role of Metatron for scale plus 10 — essentially movie minimum wage. I never in a million years would have tried to cast Alan Rickman.

Robert Rodriguez’s directing advice: Salma Hayek I got through Robert [Rodriguez]. Robert had worked with her on Desperado and said I should cast her some at one point. I called Robert a month before we started shooting the movie. I said, “Would you direct Dogma for me? The script is really good, but I’m a terrible director, so I’m gonna drop the ball. I know it’d be a f-king badass movie in your hands.” And he was real sweet. He was like, “Kevin, don’t worry about your directing. Just move the characters away from the wall. You always got two people standing next to each other, and right behind him is a flat wall. Put a window behind them, put some depth behind, that’s all you gotta do.”

A sweet story about casting George Carlin: When I met with [Carlin], he goes, “As you know, my wife passed away recently.” I said, “I heard, I’m so sorry. He says, “Me too, she was a cool lady. I’m gonna miss her for the rest of my life. I’m not ready to take off my wedding band just yet. I know I’d be playing a Catholic cardinal, and I wouldn’t be allowed to wear a wedding band. But then I had a thought last night: If you would allow me to wear a Band-Aid around my wedding band, then I could be in your movie and still wear my wedding band. What do you think?” I started crying, It was so beautiful.

Alanis turned down the part of Bethany: In 1996, my agent said, “Hey, you know that girl who sings about blowing people in movie theaters?” I said, “Her name is Alanis Morissette.” He goes, “She wants to meet you.” And I was like, “Hopefully in a movie theater.” She couldn’t have been lovelier…I had the [Chasing Amy] dailies with me on VHS. I showed her a bunch of the movie in raw-footage form. She said, “Oh, this is like Clerks but classy.” I said, “You should see the next one, it’s called Dogma, and it’s got angels in it. You know what? Man, you could totally play the lead.” And she’s like, “No, I don’t think I could carry a movie. I’m the wrong choice for it.”

God’s a charming Canadian: I didn’t hear from her for months. Then, as I was driving out to start rehearsals on Dogma…[t]he phone rings, and it’s Alanis Morissette. She’s like, “We were talking about doing a movie, and I got scared because I didn’t think I could handle the lead. I just wanted to tell you that I regret turning you down.” And I said, “Well, there’s one small but crucial role that’s left wide open. You play God.” She was like, “Why me?” And I said, “Because I always thought God would be Canadian.” She brought everything to it. Alanis says, “Can I do a handstand.” I was like, “You do whatever you want.” Her version of God was more charming than mine.

Beliefs vs. ideas: At one point, Chris Rock’s character, Rufus, is talking to Bethany about the difference between having a belief and having an idea. Beliefs are rigid and you can’t change them. Having an idea is more malleable. I no longer believe, but I have some good ideas. But even though I am not a practicing Catholic and don’t identify as Christian, I live pretty Christian — at least the Christianity that I know and remembered and loved and put on display in that movie. The Golden Rule, man, putting others first — honestly, to a fault.

His 2022 mental health crisis: I wound up in a f-king nuthouse two and a half years ago because I’m a co-dependent people pleaser who can’t validate himself, and that comes from putting others before yourself. I often feel like I wouldn’t have gone crazy if I still had my faith, because life was so much easier when I could be like, “JC, take the wheel!” When you let go of that, you’re on your own. Yeah, you have friends, you have family. But ultimately, in the cold, still, dark of the night, you know you’re by yourself.

On facing mortality while writing Dogma 2: Last time, I was steeped in my faith, and now, not really at all, and there’s less time in front of me than behind me. I almost died [from a heart attack] seven and a half years ago. I went crazy two and a half years ago. My heart broke, and then my head broke. What’s next, my ass? So as I’m facing shuffling loose this mortal coil, I need a way into a Dogma followup that I wouldn’t have been able to think about as a youngster. I wasn’t already working on a sequel when we finished Dogma. Back then, I was just like, I got enough original ideas to last a lifetime.

[From Rolling Stone]

It’s a long piece, but he’s got more great stories in there. If you’re a fan of Kevin’s or Dogma lure in general, I totally recommend it. There’s this amazing story about Kevin using Alan Rickman to get Jason Mewes to up his acting game, Mewes’ reaction, and their subsequent on-set bromance. As always, Kevin is thoughtful, funny, and does a tad bit of oversharing. I had never considered God to be Canadian before, but honestly, I can see it now, lol. Kevin’s God is a polite one that loves hockey (and skee-ball). Part of me wonders what Alanis would have brought to the table if she had been cast as Bethany, but I think that everyone ended up in the roles that they were supposed to play.

It’s kinda wild how Chasing Amy opened so many doors for Kevin. Chris Rock wanted to play Rufus because he loved it, too. I laughed at Robert Rodriguez’s advice because it was spot on. The George Carlin story is really sweet as well. Kevin has always worn his heart on his sleeve, but it’s also made him into this compassionate, understanding, empathetic, and fiercely loyal human being. I know his mental health issues were heavily tied to two different childhood traumas, but I absolutely understand what he means when he talks about feeling alone in challenging times. I know we’re several years away from getting Dogma 2 but I really think Kevin is in a place right now where he’s locked in and will give us one helluva sequel. There’s also plenty of material to work with based on current-events. I can’t wait.

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