Helen Mirren, 63, gave a recent interview to GQ Magazine in which she made some controversial statements about date rape. She is being criticized for saying date rape is still rape, but essentially that women shouldn’t be able to prosecute for it because it’s hard to prove. When you read what she said, the first part sounds reasonable enough, then she makes the assertion that date rape is between two people and shouldn’t be prosecuted in court. It really sounds like she’s saying that these cases should never go to court and that women should have no option other than to deal with the consequences. There is somewhat of a gray area and if something goes as far as she’s stipulating – a woman is there naked on her own free will, the man rapes her, etc. – that’s definitely hard to prove. That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t go to court though.
Sadly, Helen says she was date raped twice as a young woman and that she didn’t do anything about it or go to the police because it was hard to prove. It sounds like she thinks other women should keep their silence about it too. To bring her convoluted point home, Mirren says that Mike Tyson isn’t a rapist. Tyson was convicted of raping an 18 year-old beauty pageant contestant in 1991 and served three years out of a six year sentence. The woman had gone voluntarily to his hotel room.
The 63-year-old actress said when she was younger she was forced to have sex against her will and was too “naive” to say no.
Asked if she reported the incidents to the police, she told GQ magazine: “No, you couldn’t do that in those days.
“It’s such a tricky area, isn’t it? Especially if there is no violence. I mean, look at Mike Tyson. I don’t think he was a rapist.”
If a woman voluntarily ends up in a man’s bedroom, takes all her clothes off and engages in sexual activity in bed with him she has the right to say “no” at the last second, Dame Helen said.
If the man ignored her it was rape, Dame Helen said.
But she said: “I don’t think she can have that man into court under those circumstances.
“I guess it is one of the many subtle parts of the men/women relationship that has to be negotiated and worked out between them.
“Times have changed. I hate young girls going around beating each other up, but I love the fierceness of young girls nowadays, and the way they just say, ‘f*** off’, because I wish I’d been taught to say ‘f*** off’ when I was younger.
“I wish I’d had those words in my arsenal of self-defence. Instead, I was polite and didn’t have the courage to say that to men who wouldn’t accept ‘no’ for an answer.
“I was pretty naive, I went to a convent school until I was 18, and had never spent a night away from home, or gone to parties, or any of that.
“So I was very innocent when I went to college in London, and I was living on my own. And I found guys were horrible, mean, rude, insulting, and so without feeling.
“And I was looking for love and for someone who just liked me, made me laugh and was nice to me. And instead I just met all these creeps.”
She said of her own experiences: “I was (date-raped), yes. A couple of times.
“Not with excessive violence, or being hit, but rather being locked in a room and made to have sex against my will.”
[From Telegraph.co.uk]
If someone locks a woman in a room and forces her to have sex against her will, that’s rape. Of course there are cases when women “lead a man on,” but rape is never justified and that often seems to be the defense that is usually used in these type of cases. It’s also something that’s very difficult to prove.
By saying that it’s something two people have to work out between themselves, Mirren sounds like she wants to set women back 40 years to what she had to go through. Why should women negotiate with men who raped them, or somehow forgive them at the time? That assumes that it’s a reasonable situation with a reasonable person, which it isn’t if rape is involved. Do you think Mirren is still dealing with the pain of what happened to her as a young woman? If she thinks there was no recourse, maybe she feels that she can close the door on something that she had no control over.
Helen Mirren is shown on 6/30/08 at an Armani fashion show. Credit: WENN
Well I think she was trying to say that when these things happened to her, probably 30-40 years ago, they really would not have been prosecuted. And sadly in Britain the rape conviction rates have not improved much in 40 years. The Mike Tyson comment is confusing, the rest of her interview does not seem to imply she thinks date rape is in any way ok, and the fact she is speaking out about it now would imply it has preyed on her mind.
Shut up you ridiculous woman. Stick to being a self proclaimed ‘symbol of sexuality’
When a man violently assaults a woman using his dick as a stabbing instrument it is NOT something “…that has to be negotiated an worked out between them”…IT IS RAPE
SHUT THE FUKC UP YOU IDIOT
Women get enough shite in the courts without you adding to it 😈 😈 😈
Ridiculous. Youd think after she had been through it she would be all the more FOR it… yes the patriarchal system doesnt make it easy for women and often makes it harder for her to deal with (adds to the stress) but still all the more reason to fight for change and INCREASE in legal spport for women–
Maybe shes never read “the rape of mr smith”?
Good thing she’s a hell of an actress, ’cause she sure ain’t smart.
What on earth was Helen Mirren thinking while saying those stupid things? Frankly, I’m speechless. As xiaoecho said it, rape is rape. A criminal act. A criminal act where one person has been humiliated and couldn’t defend herself because she/he was physically weaker. And she is really suggesting that with those circumstances these two people should “negotiate” between them???
I’m truly sorry for her bad experiences, but this is just disgusting.
I have no doubt Mirren will be vilified here and her words taken as a suggestion that women should allow themselves to be raped with no repercussion.
I honestly don’t think that is what she was trying to express. What I got from what Helen Mirren was saying was that women should be brought up to stand up for themselves and protect themselves before it gets to the point of being raped on a date.
I think Mirren sees date rape as less about men violently forcing a woman and more that women do not stand up for themselves when they should and allow a man they are dating to pressure them into something they don’t really want to do.
I think that is probably either her own experience or her interpretation of her experience.
I think that CAN be true. I think date rape has many shades of grey–it is not a black and white issue.
It is not 100% of the time a man ruthlessly forcing a woman who is screaming “No!”.
It can also be a guy pressuring a woman and assuming her resisitance is a game.
It can be about something tbat starts as fun or flirting and gets out of control.
Does that make it less rape? No, but it makes it difficult to prove in court.
And sometimes women claim they’ve been date raped when they actually just regret having sex with someone (and before anyone freaks at me, I knew, personally, two young women who did that and who told me outright what the truth was…thank goodness it didn’t get as far as going to court)
I don’t agree with Helen Mirren, but I can understand where her point of view comes from.
Part of the problem in North America (particularly the US) is that people are so PC that they don’t accept any shades of grey on issues.
As the mother of a daughter, I can agree with Mirren in so far as she says that women should be raised to stand up for themselves and fight for themselves…not to be so docile and accepting that they allow situations to happen that they do not want.
people are so PC that they don’t accept any shades of grey on issues.
Your sister was just raped by a stranger while out on a date. Tell me, where’s the shade of gray?
It sounds to me, that over the years, she’s been validating that she was raped by comparing her assault to others, like the Mike Tyson situation.
Maybe she’s been trying to define what exactly happened to her, what her role was, trying to get rid of guilt. I don’t think she said anything sooo offensive, it all sounds rather sad really.
She was being honest and should be applauded for that.
Holy contradictions, Batman. Okay, just two points before everyone crucifies Dame Mirren:
“The 63-year-old actress said when she was younger she was forced to have sex against her will and was too “naive” to say no.”
*If she didn’t say no, it’s not rape. A young, vulnerable (but legal) woman was just being manipulated into having sex. It falls under the “emotional blackmail” area of sex, in my book.
“Not with excessive violence, or being hit, but rather being locked in a room and made to have sex against my will.”
*Now that *is* rape. And not date-rape or acquaintence-rape, but just flat-out rape.
Is some of this just Dame Mirren being a different generation? 😥
I agree with Czarina. She’s not validating rape or blaming victims. She’s sort of rambling, actually, in the interview. She keeps saying “those days” and “those circumstances” when explaining why she didn’t make a police report.
But I’m kind of confused as to why she says she doesn’t think Mike Tyson is a rapist. She just admitted that what happened to her (being ignored, being locked in) WAS rape, so I think she knows that date rape is rape. I feel like there was more to the interview that hasn’t been included.
Yeah, I read it very much as Helen’s own very personal experience of feeing powerless in situations where, in retospect, she wishes she’d been a bit more confident. Don’t feel it was intended as a generalisation about date rape (in all its many variables), just her trying to express her own frustrations about her lack of power at the time. Not quite sure where she’s going with the Tyson thing but, that aside, I don’t believe she was genuinely advocating what she’s come across here as advocating.
At times, it almost sounds as if she’s musing aloud on things which she might probably have been better off keeping to herself since generalisations like these are likely to provoke a very heated response.
Maybe she’s going senile, that’s the only reason I can think that anyone would make such ridiculous comments.
vdantev: That is not a shade of grey, that’s rape. But that does not cover every situation, which is what I’m talking about. Or, more to the point, what I think Merrin was talking about.
I travelled before I went to university, so I was a bit older than the other girls when I finally went.
The “No means No” campaign was in full swing at the time.
In my opinion if was, frankly, dangerous. Young women were being told that no means no and no guy had the right to push them if they said no.
I agree, but what was NOT pointed out, was that women, too, need to take precautions about situations they find themselves in.
They weren’t told, do not go to a guy’s house after a date if you hardly know him.
Don’t go to a party with a lot of strangers, many of whom may be drinking, and get drunk yourself.
They were told “All you have to do is say no” As if the words will magically stop a bad situation.
I think women, now, are a great deal more educated and aware then they were when I was younger. But I think that is where Merrin was going with her comments; that women, especially young women, need to be tough and armed with more than an idealistic idea that no means no.
Edit: I would add, that that is how I percieved her comments, and it could be me projecting my own view.
Date rape is a “subtle part of man-woman relationship”?!
I think I’m going to be sick…
Aaaargh i really used to like Helen Mirren. After these comments, not so much.
Rape never has grey areas, it is what it is, a criminal offence.
I think you should read with attention what she said, instead of just jumping to conclusions and judging her.
I am with czarina, if you’re half naked with a guy in a room a NO probably is not going to work.
I believe that if a man has non-consensual sex with a woman it’s rape. Period.
On the other hand, women need to learn not to put themselves into situations where it can happen.
Okay, 1. When, in the past, a woman told me no, it meant no. Not maybe, not do it again and I’ll think about it.
2. grand juries are skeptical of these cases many times. They want to know when the woman claimed rape, what the circumstances surrounding the situation was and about the parties concerned. Sometimes they will “no bill” a case, meaning they will not return an indictment aginst the defendant and other times they will ask for more information or investigation. Sometimes they’ll indict too.
Its the particular circumstances surrounding each case that they use to determine what to do. Which, as I believe you’ll agree, is the way it should be.
Mirren often makes controversial statements but I doubt that in this case she knowingly set out to excuse rape or advocate for it.
Most of these interviews are just excerps of actual conversations that take place between the interviewer and interviewee. The danger in this is that it is easy for things to come out in a way that the person actually did not mean.
I agree with Czarina’s points. Although I speak against rape in all its shape and form, you have to look on the other side too. Many girls for their reasons scream rape when in actual sense there was none. Before you all just at my throat, you have to imagine your younger brother in such a situation, whose whole future is ruined when they are jailed for such a case. How would you feel if after 5 years in jail the girl now older and wiser confessed that she actually said yes but during intercourse or right after she changed her mind? I watched one such case on Oprah. I have since known more than 3 incidences of the sort. Once such girl has even just been jailed for perjury. Which makes me appreciate the ‘subtle parts of a relationship’ that Mirren is getting at.
Sadly, Rape does have grey areas, you and I may not want to hear that but it is a fact.
Rape is such an incredible violation of not only your physical being but your emotional and mental well being, it is not surprising Ms Mirren comments are receiving this type of response. However to believe that every rape never has any grey areas is naive. While I believe No Means No, I agree that females need to take personal responsibility in protecting themselves.
Mirren is a senior citizen while in itself means she has lived a long time and could be wise but in reality she’s dragged popular opinion from the 50s and 60s into 2008. I notice this with older generations, some lack education and hold onto some of the stupid ideas of their generation. Not that she’s excused, just an observation.
czarina – if a man assumes resistance is a game HE needs to check his head, not the woman for not resisting enough! Christ, sex isn’t about game playing. People need to spend less time convincing their daughters to fight harder and more time educationing their sons about what a willing partner looks like.
While I agree that date rape is rape, I agree w/ czarina that there are sometimes ‘gray areas.’
There was a movie on Lifetime where a girl was in the middle of having sex with a guy and he said something she didn’t like – something about being ‘friends with benefits’ and she got upset at the discovery that he was not as in to her emotionally as she was with him. She told him to stop, to get off and he didn’t he just finished and then sorta looked at her like wtf? what did I do? She pressed charges against him, said she was raped and he was totally gobsmacked when he was arrested for raping her. I bring this up as an example of a gray area, though I’m sure some will disagree with me on this point.
It seems to me that Mirren is a bit conflicted on this issue hence the contradictory statements. The ‘subtle part of man-woman relationship’ was a poor choice of words but I don’t get that she’s saying that rape/date rape is okay and that women should be quiet about it and deal. She sounds like a woman who is examining her feelings on the subject and sharing them (ill-advisedly) with an interviewer.
Just my $0.2.
“She sounds like a woman who is examining her feelings on the subject and sharing them (ill-advisedly) with an interviewer.”
Very well said, I Choose, that’s exactly what I ‘heard’ when I read that extract. I wonder did she have approval before this went to print?
Rape itself never has any shades of grey, in my opinion. There may be different circumstances leading to rape, but the criminal act (a person having sex against her or his will) is what it is, a criminal act. I know that she’s not validating rape, but to be saying simply because it might be hard to prove it, a person shouldn’t be taking it to court is just plain stupid. We probably shouldn’t be judging her (even more so since she was raped herself), but in times where esp. young women still are so much ashamed of it and are rather keeping it quiet than pressing charges, this is not the message an intelligent woman like her should be sending out.
I’m all for Grrrl Power, absolutely, but it can happen to the strongest of us and i agree with Anne on the last part of her last sentence.
Yuck. I can’t believe she said that. I always never liked her for stupid stuff she says, but this takes the cake.
I agree that rape is rape, but I also agree that there are grey areas. Like I know a girl who says she was raped, but never said ‘no’ to the guy who was ‘raping’ her. And the issue of consent is also a grey area, like if the woman doesn’t verbally agree to sex like ‘yes let’s have sex!’ then it wasn’t consensual, that kind of thing. Obviously pushing a woman into sex and raping her while she’s screaming at you to get off is rape and TOTALLY WRONG, but there are grey areas, and I’m sure plenty of innocent men have gone to prison over them.
No means NO.
Girls should be taught to speak up for themselves, and boys should be taught to listen. Consensual sex requires the understanding and cooperation of both partners – no matter how brief the union.
She probably felt a lot of shame at the time and felt that there was no help for her. Maybe she’s of the opinion that maybe she was asking for it too? No woman ASKS to be raped, even if she’s drunk or drugged by the rapist. Of course, men who take advantage of a woman and force sex on her should be prosecuted. I almost feel that Mirren was not only misquoted but perhaps is protecting her own feelings about it as well.
resistance isn’t a game and sex isn’t a game? really? ever met anyone into bdsm? it’s about 10% of the female population. a few years ago i was living the wild life, and i was pressured into sex more than once. if you say no and then yes, what’s that? sure feels like date rape. but it ain’t. there’s always a grey area in date rape, unless somebody filmed it, or the guy (or girl. i knew a guy who was date raped at a party by this chick he really hated) admits that it wasn’t consensual. as a survivor or poor joint decisions myself, i would way way rather deal with my shit on my own then have some snivelling defense attorney rip a hole in my personal life and prolong the pain. why is the woman necessarily more trustworthy than the man? 40% of sexual assaults are reported. 1/4 of reported assaults are false. one’s too low and the other’s too high. as reports grow, so do false reports. there’s no optimal solution here. so give the old lady a f—ing break. she’s got a point.
p.s. out of curiosity, what are y’alls feelings on female rape fantasies? should they be thrust aside or accepted as a part of natural female sexuality?
Good point, Actingrc. Perhaps Mirren, in her own way, was trying to protect the dignity of women who were date raped by encouraging them to stay out of court. I’ve studied law, and criminal trials – especially in cases of rape – can get very ugly. Attorneys will go after any perceived instance of immorality (“How short was your skirt?”, “How much do you typically drink?”, “How many sexual partners have you had?”) in order to decimate one’s character and defraud one’s claim. In the end, most women choose not to press charges because the whole ordeal (in some cases) can be more traumatic and damaging than the rape itself.
It still doesn’t make it fair, and it certainly doesn’t make it right. The best offense against date rape is clear verbal communication – I’d like to think that most people just want to have a good time, not psychologically damage their partner. But as in life, things get sticky. My heart goes out to anyone who has had to directly suffer through this process.
I really have a problem with those who think Mirren believes this way because she’s older. I’m older and I don’t agree with her. You can’t make excuses just because she grew up in a different time. She’s living in this time.
I think she has a point that she isn’t articulate enough to express properly.
I’m sick of women making out with eachother and acting like tarts, only to cry “rape” when they regret how things went the next morning. THAT’S what should be illegal. There’s all kinds of laws being put into effect to protect women after they’ve been drinking because they aren’t “sound of mind”.
I think the feminism-pendulum has swung too far, and now it’s men that are getting screwed by our laws. Women always say they want to be treated JUST like men, **but** they want special privellages/pardons.
Go ahead, girls, throw me to the wolves. At least I know what I’m getting with them.
Anne: To say that sex is never a game is not being realistic. Sure, it can be. Lots of people who are dating or have been in a relationship for a long time play games (sometimes the ‘no..no..no..yeah, OK’ game. (my husband and I still do that!)
Between two people who know and trust each other and are comfortable with their boundaries, it’s fine to play games.
Unfortunately, there ARE situations where a man or woman thinks their partner is playing a game and their partner isn’t. Usually people who do NOT know each other well (at least not well enough to be having sex!)
This is a grey area. Is it any less rape if a man thinks a woman is teasing until it is too late? No. Never.
It is, however, pretty darn difficult for that woman to prosecute the guy successfully.
As to your comments that boys should be raised to know a willing partner–I agree 100%! I think every mother of a son (of which I am one) has a responsibility to educate him that no always means no (among much other sexual advice). Too often parents leave it to school, TV, movies and friends to educate their kids about not just the physical but the emotional aspects of sex.
Mollination: I agree that anyone who makes a false accusation against another person for a crime is guilty of criminal behavior, and in the case of women making false accusations about rape it is a huge disservice to women who are actually raped and then treated with suspicion when they go to the police.
However, to tie in a rape charge with women making out with each other (as if that invites sexual repercussions from men) or “acting tarty” is like suggesting that anyone who rides a motorcycle is a Hell’s Angel and should be thrown into jail.
I really hope you are just saying that to be provoking, and not because you actually believe that nonesense.
Having seen a case of “date rape” from the other side…when the situation was two people dating (we have been friends with the guy for years) for months and being sexually active for most of that time…they go to a party, they both get drunk, they have sex, the next morning her parents start tearing into her about being hungover…and all of a sudden, the story changes to “well, he got me drunk and raped me.”
That happens all the time. ALL. THE. TIME.
Women who falsely accuse rape should suffer the sentence the man they accused would be sentenced to if found guilty.
I interpreted what she said totally differently from the rest of y’all. It seemed to me she was saying that there’s no point going to the police with date rape, because it’s so difficult to prove and the courts are biased in favour of the rapist. I’ve had two friends who were raped (that I know of) and I can certainly say that was true in their cases. I felt Mirren was saying that you have to be careful what situations you get into, because the courts won’t help you. And she’s right.
Okay czarina, let’s bring it home a bit more for you.
Your daughter was naive and went to a secluded area with her date. He forces sex on her; is it rape or just another shade of gray?
i am SO SICK of reading the words “women should know not to get themselves into certain situations”; “women should take certain precautions”; “women ought to know that there are risks involved with X, Y and Z”. how about MEN are responsible for not putting their penis into any woman who hasn’t clearly and enthusiastically said Yes–i think that’s far more appropriate and effective. no isn’t a magic word, but then a woman can do everything “right” and still be raped by her own husband. mirren’s comments underscore the CRAP attitude that seems to be held worldwide about rape–to wit, in some situations, women could or should have protected themselves better and for that reason are not entitled to any sort of legal recourse or compensation.
BULLSH!T. forty years ago,now and forever, total bullsh!t. a woman (like any human being) has the right to decide at ANY MOMENT not to have sex with someone else. after lots of foreplay, even after initial penetration. “NO” is not a yes, “stop” is not a yes, the “yes” of twenty minutes ago has fvckall to do with the action now. anyone who violates this simple principle is a rapist and belongs in jail. the sobriety, wardrobe and prior behavior of the victim have NOTHING to do with it.
and stop dragging out the false rape bogeymen. funny how when a woman is “allegedly raped” there is plenty of speculation about what the circumstances were; yet when a woman has allegedly “cried rape aftter consensual sex” it’s case closed. she’s a liar, she’s a tease, she’s the reason rapes are barely prosecuted anywhere.
gimmeabrea: This is the difference between what SHOULD BE and REALITY.
Should a woman always be able to say no and a man back off? Yes. At any time? Yes.
If we were living in a pefect world, sure.
If we were living in a perfect world, I should be able to walk through Central Park in NYC at 2 in the morning wearing a big diamond necklace (assuming I owned one) and NOT have anyone mug me, hurt me or steal from me.
Because, hey, nobody has the RIGHT to do those things.
And if I did walk through Central Park at 2 a.m. dripping with jewels and I got mugged, robbed or worse, the police would still come, they would still recognize that I was the victim of a crime…but probably the first thing they would say is “Why would you be so stupid as to do something any idiot would recognize as dangerous??”
This is exactly why I said the “No means No” campaign was dangerous. Because they were convincing young women that it was MEN’s responsibility to control themselves and that women did not need to consider their own actions.
And if it were a perfect world, this might be true.
Because we don’t live in a perfect world, and the consequences of being willfully ignorant about thier own behavior and judgments is so high, that kind of feminist rant of “it’s all men’s responsibility to control themselves” is not enough to protect them from the reality that some men WON’T control themselves.
I am not going to have my daughter go out in the world with some idealistic crap about how she can end things any time she wants and a man will just politely get up, zip his pants and walk away.
Because if she is wrong, if that doesnt’ work, then SHE is going to be the one to pay for that mistake for the rest of her life.
But I DO agree with you that it IS rape and that no woman should think she can be raped with no consequences. I assumed Mirren was talking about at the time SHE was young, that things were different.
Adri: If you actually read what I wrote, you would realize your question is obtuse.
Of course forcing a woman to have sex is rape. Re-read my posts…I don’t recall that I have said otherwise.
I absolutely believe that sexual relations have shades of grey, but I have never suggested that having sex under any circumstances with a partner who is unwilling is not rape.
Beyond that I intend to make DAMN sure my daughter is never nieve enough to go to a secluded place with someone she does not know very well.
Which doesn’t preclude that a woman can be raped by someone she DOES know well.
But, and this is my point for the most part. This is what I felt Helen Mirran was trying to say; too many young women in the past have been forced into things because they are not taught early to a)take precautions, b) make themselves clear about what they will and will not do and c) fight back as much as they can if they have to. I want my daughter to know all of that.
If, knowing all of that, she is still the victim of a rapist, I will help and encourage her to prosecute him to the extent the law allows.
It’s not a matter of blaming the victim…it’s about trying to keep anyone from becoming a victim if they can help it.
She’s entitled to an opinion because it’s just that: an opinion – but in GQ magazine? WTF, Helen?!
Yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but this was disrespectful to women across the world. Date rape is when I guy/girl use drugs to weaken the victim. The victim has no idea that the drug was given to them. I think the word “date rape” was used badly. And with the whole not going to the police thing, it’s simply ridiculous. I have been date raped before and the rapist was sloppy and left his semen on my panties. Before he drugged me I asked his name, stupidly he gave me his real one. I didn’t remembered it, but one of friends/co workers did. The police noticed he had a record. Searched his house. Come to find out I was video taped along with other females. He only got 5 years.
actingrc, play sex games if they are previously agreed upon. If a woman has a rape fantasy doesn’t she usually tell her partner about it so they can play it out? Real rape probably isn’t what she has in mind.
Syko, I didn’t mean to insult anyone who is older. This is just something I’ve noticed. But then, I live in a small logging town in the interior of British Columbia, pretty much red-neckville so it is clearly my own observances and experiences – I apologise for generalising. And it certainly doesn’t excuse her.
gimmeabreak, you are 100% right.
I think people really need to re-read her comments CAREFULLY.
Helen is NOT advocating date rape or stating that women SHOULDN’T take their date rape perpetrators to court. She is pointing out that date rape is very difficult to prosecute and, in some cases, doesn’t make it to court – I’ve heard of several cases in which date rape victims were told by their own attorneys that they would not have a strong case if they took it to court.
It’s a sad reality, folks.
I wonder how many of the women who “validate” the “shades of grey” were or realized that they were victims of rape or sexual assault. Here’s a sobering stat: 1 out of 3 women is a victim of some form of sexual abuse (i.e. assault, rape, molestation, etc); many of them have been abused more than once. What it indicates is that there lacks a social system that helps women become aware that they’ve been preyed upon. It took me 3 occasions to finally realize it.
Re: women crying wolf about rape, there are laws that can convict a women if it’s proven that she was lying. But 96-98% of all rape reports, which are way underreported, are valid. Where’s the justice in knowing that only a fraction of the perpetrators get taken to trial, never mind prison?
Contrary to some chauvenists’ claims here that women’s rights is way out of hand, I believe the sexual revolution and liberation at this day and age is a facade over women’s constant insecurities about their roles and behaviors in society. Women are constantly bombarded with contradictory ideas on standing up for herself but keeping proper composure, being assertive but not aggressive, to demand but be nice about it. We have basic rights as women but as social actors, we are taught to be passive in their usage.
Damn, czarina is on today!
I could not agree with K more.
The one out three stat is terrifying. Women need to learn to be empowered and not just give into the social scripts that our society offers them. We need to change the way we think about consent. IF a woman is hurt, drunk or conned–it isn’t consensual. Locking a woman in a room is definitely not consensual.
czarina, i’m not saying women should have any illusions about men’s respect of their bodies. but i think this resignation to some men’s “lack of control” is exactly what perpetuates rape. NOT women’s behavior. and your central park analogy is false and insulting. a woman’s body is not an expensive possion. the fact that many people view it as such is another factor that contributes to more rapes.
yes, teach your daughters that they’re safer with friends, they’re safer when not piss drunk. but teach your SONS that they aren’t actually entitled to sex whenever they want it. the last bit is what doesn’t happen, and that is the problem. girls being “naive” and “idealistic” is not the problem.
this has ruined my entire day. czarina, those precautions are a good idea but it is IMPOSSIBLE for victims to stop a crime from happening. the only person who has the control to stop a crime from happening is the perpetrator. in conversations about rape, every woman i’ve ever known who hasn’t been raped says “i’ve been lucky enough” not to be raped. it’s not a result of being smarter, more careful or worldwise than women who are victims. but what man says “i’m lucky enough not to be a rapist”? the burden of rape prevention is on men. that’s not feminist, idealistic crap.
i guess my point is that what people should focus on is rape prevention, and that the language about prevention should be targeted directly at men. you say i am “confusing” the way things should be with reality. well, if the reality is dangerous, why shouldn’t we change it? the most positive change would involve a drastic reworking of our ideas about women’s bodies and men’s behavior.
one thing mirren is right about is that prosecution rates for date rapes are abysmal. we can’t put our faith in courts when it comes to this kind of crime. there again, prevention is what we need. where you and i differ is that you seem to believe that by doing certain common sense things, a woman can avoid becoming a rape victim. THAT is what i consider naive, and yet arrogant at the same time.
MESSED UP!
I think this is a personal disclosure she gave and felt she needed to defend her lack of action. She is hoping people will say “Of course, you did the right thing. No big deal, happens all the time.” Sad, but don’t hold it against her.
anne – i asked about rape fantasies merely as a corollary. i know several hard-line feminists who believe S&M of any kind is degrading, even when consensual – it’s not *really* consensual.
and like it or lump it, sex is often a game, particularly in the demographic most likely to be acquaintance raped.
date rape is usually not drugged, though often impaired (alcohol).
i’ve seen figures for false reports that are much much higher than 2-4%. some are as high as 25%. sucks to think about if you’re one of the 60% of survivors who didn’t report.
gimmeabreak, you said what was on my mind and what unfortunately due to language barriers I couldn’t have said that eloquently. Truly and deeply, thank you.
Wow.. who commented on BDSM again
“If she thinks there was no recourse, maybe she feels that she can close the door on something that she had no control over.” Yes. I think this is so astute of you. I was raped by a stranger and my city (in 1990) did not yet haver a DNA database; all I could do was look at old mugshots, and he wasn’t in there. So I know, from my own perspective anyway and certainly not Dame H’s, about having no recourse.
In my experience one does try hard to reason through it, because no matter how much you talk about it and have therapy, if there’s no tangible closure, a lot of pain and loss and rage still just sit there with nowhere to go ultimately. You end up being responsible for all this poisonous stuff that wasn’t your idea. So if you’re a thinking person, it is really easy to get wrapped up in thinking your way out. Or trying to. In the end I will need EMDR or martial arts classes or something. Talking isn’t enough.