Here’s a weird (disturbing) fact that the Daily Mail found buried in a long piece in NY Magazine about Madonna’s involvement in the Kabbalah cult. The NY Magazine story centers on the cult’s sketchy business practices. We’ve already heard that millions have gone missing from Madonna’s Kabbalah-based charity, Raising Malawi, and that plans to build a school there had to be scrapped. The piece goes further into that, exposing the rock star lifestyle of the Kabbalah founders and how multiple charity projects they’ve started have gone bad. There are some wonderfully bitchy observations from the journalist, Vanessa Grigoriadis. She notes that Madonna is the queen in Kabbalah and never mixes with the other congregationalists and that her belief system matches nicely with the cult. This quote is my favorite “These thoughts resonated with Madonna, who has, traditionally, been more interested in power than almost any other pop star.”
Anyway the real meat of the story is in this quote from Kabbalah co-founder Karen Berg about how Madonna had Guy Ritchie circumcised:
Karen has even noted that Madonna “keeps a kosher home, she observes Shabbat, she circumcised her son and had her [ex-] husband circumcised.” (Yes, you read the last part correctly.)
[From NY Mag]
I’m married to a German guy, and once men get to that age (probably once they notice) it’s not a simple prospect to get circumcised. I asked my husband for a quote in regards to this story and he said “f$#& that, no f$#&ing way” and added “that is ridiculous.” He insisted I quote him like that too. So is this the ultimate example of being p-whipped, getting circumcised for your wife? (We can’t forget that Swept Away movie, that was a close second.) I wonder if Ritchie ever regrets it. This isn’t about a baby getting circumcised, this is a full grown man who is used to the way things are.
These photos are from 2007 and 2008. Credit: WENN
Put that in the bin with “things I never thought I’d know/see and now would like to forget”. Right next to all those gross pictures of Madonna’s veiny arms.
Wow…that’s dedication.
GAH. That was about the last headline I expected to read! Ugh, ugh, ugh!
Get. That. Picture. Out. Of. My. Head!!!
This sounds so ridiculously stupid!
Nauseating.
Doesn’t he know that old saying “a fool and his foreskin are soon parted”?
Man… bit too much, I believe…? On a grown man! Although, maybe if you’re married to a jew (converted or born) you sort of have to do it to make the religious cerimony valid…?
Personally, I prefer men with.
Maybe that’s why he alway looked uncomfortable back then and keeps his hands in his pockets (protecting what he had left.)
Does she keep his foreskin encased in lucite as a trophy?
I bet she did it herself too. While praying.
And Baby Jesus? Was he circumcised too?
Oh my!!! I’ve never gotten up close & personal with an uncut peen & my “American Exceptionalism” (sarcasm) tells me it’s just weird when they’re not cut. But I can’t picture asking…say Hot Prince Ginge, to get that type of manscaping. I guess I will pick Mark Ronson to be my partner for any potential British dongfest, assuming he’s all tidied up being Jewish & all.
It’s not weird when the are whole. It’s actually much nicer to be intimate with a man who has all his working parts. And as you said yourself, your prejudice has everything to do with what is culturally normal to you. Over 85% of the worlds male population is whole, including most European Jews.
She probably bit it off.
Eleanor, of course he was. He was Jewish, remember?
@Bina: 😀
Oh, and Ginge Hary, Wills, and Charles are all circumcised. It’s the thing to do in the British Royalty/Upper upper classes
Ok, I need to applaud the following commenters:
Brin
Constance
Slim Charles
Mshuffleupagus
Eleonor
Dread Pirate Cuervo (Happy Cinco de Mayo! I can’t wait until I can get into some Cuervo-the tequila, not the commenter)
You guys made me giggle like crazy, alone in my office. I’m sure someone walked by and thought I was nuts.
This does not surprise me in the least.
OMG Bina I just peed my pants!
I’m Jewish and my ex, who is not, was born and raised in the UK so I cringed when my mom asked if he was converting. I’ve been pretty vocal about how offended I am when someone converts (or tells someone else they have to convert) “just to get married” as I find it terribly disrespectful at best but I think my ex and my whole family were shocked when I said that I would discourage him from converting even if he had a strong desire to live as a practicing Jew. Sorry but, after infancy, circumcision is [painful] surgery requiring general anesthesia that should only be done when medically necessary.
Madge seems to like the foreign boys who aren’t Jewish and I highly doubt she’d really push for them or Guy Ritchie to have a bris. That said, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if she said a motzi before a blowjob (ala Demi Moore in deconstructing harry)
The things we do for love…
She might have ripped it off in a hissy fit.
This Is Important:
ACTUALLY, folks, when male converts are circumcised, their foreskin is not normally removed. It is pricked (huh,huh) so that it ritualistically bleeds. The twistedly Kabbalistic cult thingy Madonna’s in might go whole hog, but I doubt it. If they claim to be Orthodox (which they aren’t) and are taking converts (which the non-Modern Orthodoxy does not do), I think they would probably make the circumcision as painless as possible. If they didn’t do it at all, they’d look less legit, so that’s not an option: they need new blood (huh,huh) to keep their scam going.
I think he probably regrets a lot, but that’s probably the biggest. Or smallest, depending on how you look at it.
She probably insisted just to exercise her power over him. I can’t imagine having to deal with her in real life.
“Anyway the real meat of the story…”
Subtle puns are the best.
harfang I will be out for a little while and won’t be able to update, but comment with a link for that mini-circumcision (ha!) story and I’ll update, thanks!
What’s the difference between a baby and a grown up man being circumcised? Does it mean that a baby doesn’t feel anything? Is it only painful when you’re an adult? Did someone actually ask an infant how painful it was and whether he liked it or not and the baby said: eh, it didn’t hurt at all? Did any of the babies ask for anesthesia? Did they complain at all? Seriously. I don’t get it.
He received a nice settlement in the end so for him it was probably worth it. I love this story – Madonna the All Powerful!
If it’s true, he’s a dumbass.
Gross.
She probably had his foreskin injected into her cheeks….
Sorry…
I don’t BLAME Madonna for this one…
Gotta keep the punnany ON POINT!!!
Happy Cinco, Tarheel! As this is my cinco Cinco without tequila, feel free to have my share of Cuervo (basically the whole bottle)!
A baby FEELS THE PAIN. I used to do consciousness-raising for NOCIRC (founded by a nurse who was horrified by the effects of her own son’s circumcision), and believe me, they do.
@dread pirate cuervo: Really, you’ve never seen one uncut? Maybe it’s because in Canada we have a lot more Europeans but about 1/3 of my men have been uncut.
The most embarrassing is my current bf. He’s uncut but I couldn’t tell because he has a large dong but the smallest foreskin ever. I spent the first few months stealthy trying to figure it out but he called me out on it one day in bed. Trust me, there is nothing more ridiculous than being naked in bed and hearing “are you examining my foreskin for warts or something?!?”
@Dread Pirate-boy I wish I could. But BabyTarheel is only 36 weeks along, so he’s a little young to celebrate! Next year-I’m drinking EVERYONE’S share! So be forewarned-Lock up your tequila!
Kabbalah has been around for thousands of years. It isn’t a cult. It’s fake ass people trying to make it part of their lives to be “cool” that is making it that way.
Unless those words come out of Guy Richie’s mouth on tape, this story is bull.
harfang: : I think you are wrong. The skin is pricked ONLY IF the person was already circumcised before going trough conversion. This ritual is a must in order for a conversion to take place. If the men has never been circumcised, then a circumcision needs to take place. This applies to all the branches of Judaism, (Orthodox, conservative and reform).
I do not know much about Kabalah, so I cant really tell what went there, but I do know a lot about Judaism, because I am jewish and I have studied a lot about it. Circumcision is one of the main symbols of being jewish; it might seem a little outdated, but it is something that we have carried thousands of years with us. It is part of our identity. Converting to Judaism is not an easy process, and on the contrary, Rabbis are not going around trying to make you a Jew. Most rabbis, not only Orthodox are very careful and try to explain to people trying to convert, that marriage is not a valid reason to convert. It takes commitment to go trough the process, it takes time and you have to be sure that you want to do it. Circumcision is the way the convert shows his commitment and faith.
These people are not being obligated, most have months of years to weight their decision and know about Judaism before they do it. As for Madona’s husband, don’t know if that’s the case.
@Roma
ROTFL … best …story … ever
I have a vision of you holding up the blankets and delicately poking at it with a stick
i personally like a man who has a cut dong looks tidy and neat.. maybe it’s because i’m jewish .. i dated one guy who wasn’t couldn’t take it.. now i have a circumcised male so much better. when i have a baby boy he’ll be snipped asap.. and not only because of my religion.. it looks better
Well at least he went willingly to the slaughter 🙂 she did have a baby with him I have a feeling it’s the same amount of pain.
@Roma, I once clicked on a link to a particularly hot Russian gay porn auteur, so I’ve seen a pic, but never the real thing. I think I’ve only ever heard of maybe three dudes I know having the original packaging.
@Tarheel, congrats & God bless, momma! I now celebrate with tacos & guacamole. Not too exciting, I’ve never gotten a hangover from avocados.
She seems so manly at times….I wonder if her’s was circumcised too.
I just love the phony aspect to Kabbalah. It was never meant to be understood by anyone EXCEPT certain special rabbis. Most Orthodox, Conservative and Reform rabbis don’t deal with it.
I don’t know about all this. But Guy still goes to Kaballah he said in an interview. He just doesn’t go as religously as Madonna is involved in it.
Madonna looked so pretty in those photos. I so wish she would take the cheek implants out or fillers.
I still love the Queen of Pop, no matter her bad sides. She made it 30 years in the business, doing it her way, in a man’s world and is playing to stadiums. God save the Queen so she can come back and give me some great pop in her next album. LOL
TMI!! We need to know this because?!?!?
@Sumodo1, all religions have some phoniness to them in one form or another, except to those who belong to that particular religion. Don’t even get me started about them, as I don’t want to offend anybody here. I put Kaballah right up there, for sure.
@Bina, actually Diana was quoted way back when William was little as saying her boys were NOT cut.
That’s Madonna’s version of chopping off his balls.
I’m Jewish and yes, a drop of blood is drawn if the man is circumcised; circumcision for those who aren’t (in Orthodox and Conservative J circles).
Of course, this is just part of the process of converting. It surely doesn’t make Guy any more a Jew than before, but it surely makes him whipped if it’s due to Madonna’s demands.
From what I have read, circumcision in it’s current form is relatively recent. It originally only involved a bit of a blood letting but left the foreskin intact to function as it normally does.
Secular circumcision also used to be touted as a way to keep males from masterbating. Yeah, well all know how that turned out.
i will never forget my ob, when he asked me if i was planning on circumcising and i said no, said, oh thank god. i hate doing it, and people think the baby cant feel it. i’ve done enough to know they do.
My ex was uncut and it was the most repulsive thing I have seen in my life. It was practically a deal breaker.
I really don’t know why but my first thought was I guess she needed some new chewing gum. I know….gross.
I have been with both types of guys cut & uncut. While cut looks prettier I could care less. Imagine some guy dumping you because your vajajay is not all that cute- let’s face it they are not. The uncut guy was much better because he knew how to use it! Wink wink
and now i spit out my calamari…tmi!!!
Good for her, I’m sure his new girlfriend appreciates it. It’s a hygiene issue, I believe it is so much better when they are circumcised and looks so much better too.
I would take Guy Richie au natural. This is repulsive if it’s true. I admire M. as a businesswoman, but her personal life is so messed up. She will never attract a man of Guy Richie’s caliber again. Guy never trashed Madonna publicly, and I admire that. He is classy, decent & sexy.
What?? Uncut is more beautiful anyday. And so much more natural. I think cut is ugly, actually. Too much exposed, too knobby– with a skin, its all one smooth thing. Much nicer LOL And a lot more to play with, a lot more effective.
apart from how effed up this is; how nice of karen berg to reveal that deeply personal little tidbit about richey.
what a bitch.
I recall Madonna declaring, ages ago, that she refuses to perform fellatio. Whatever. What I do not comprehend, with this soi-disant revolutionary and free-thinker, is her serial attachments to patriarchal religions. (But even in her most ludicrous whimsy, she cannot seriously be flirting with Opus Dei, can she??)
Our youngest is uncut, due as much to insurance issues as the arguments with his dad.
It really isn’t THAT much harder to take care of, hygiene-wise, and he didn’t have to go through the pain.
AND I DON’T CARE WHAT ANYONE SAYS, BABIES DO FEEL PAIN.
@ Dread Pirate – Happy Cinco de Mayo anniversary! And if you’re not getting a hangover from guacamole, you’re not doing it right. Or not eating enough. Something… 😉
@ Tarheel – Congrats!
Not all Jewish people circumcise their sons. This custom is being refused by more modern Jews everyday. Even many Rabbis are against it now than they were before. It is painful and a barbaric custom. Who would stand there and watch their helpless infant son be strapped to a wooden board, have his foreskin ripped off and scream in pain because they want a pretty looking penis? A true Jew is against circumcision because it is a violation of Jewish Law and are made in the eyes of God. The faith states that, “No human body shall be altered or marked”. Cutting off a foreskin sounds like being altered to me.
My son is uncut and it will be his choice to decide if he wants to or not.
wtf?:
Hahaha, I’ve never chewed on foreskin, but I guarantee it would have the exact same consistency as calamari.
I’ll pass. I once dated a man in his forties when I was in my early twenties, and he wasn’t circumcised. I didn’t mind. But I much prefer circumcised. Better looking imo.
Kabbalah, this celebrity saturated cult is such an elitist society of idiots or they have to be idiots to be taken in by the type of pseudo mysticism that other Jews steer clear from.
As for guy, I believe the story. He did what Madonna wanted. Madonna is a control freak. There are even photographs of them shopping at a sex shop, her purchasing a strap on. So yeah, she was the man in that relationship and when you’re married to someone who is 1000 times wealthier than you, you’re not going to object are you? And no, Ritchie wasn’t ‘that’ wealthy before he married Madonna. Just food for thought.
Yes, what a bitch. Man did he get the short end of the stick. Can you imagine someone trying to tell Madonna she had to get her lady parts circumcised?? Hell to the No!!!!!
@Roma, I completely understand what you mean.
I’ve seen enough penises (on dead guys) to know that some uncut men look circumcised because they have small foreskin or can pull the foreskin over the head of their penis; while others, particularly those with large foreskin look rather unsightly. It really depends on the penis size and shape (if the uncircumcised penis looks pretty). As an aside, although a circumcised penis is considered more hygenic, an uncircumcised penis has more feeling because those extra nerves in the foreskin haven’t been removed. if I were a man I’d probably choose pleasure over cleanliness 😉 although, my husband insisted on circumcising both of our sons because he is.
A frien do fmine recently had to have done due to a medical condition ……… he claims he cant wank now because his has rejected is dong as it just does not look right…….pmsl
Pinkpunk:
1) “You shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, as a sign of the covenant between Me and you. At the age of eight days, you shall circumcise every male child born to you throughout the generations…” Bereishis 17:11-1
2) The foreskin is definitely never “ripped,” it’s very carefully removed with a clamp, and the process is fundamentally painless:
“The boys circumcised with a Mogen, the clamp used by mohels, had less than half the heart rate increase and total crying time of infants circumcised with a Gomco, the device used by most doctors.
“Oxygen levels were also higher in the Mogen infants, a sign they suffered less stress, said Dr. Hema N. DeSilva, director of neonatology at St. Francis Hospital and Medical Center, the study leader and a regular user of the mohel’s tool of trade.”
3) A “true Jew”? Really? I suppose you were at Sinai and can make those pronouncements? There are as many flavours of Judaism as there are of KoolAid, and the words of the Torah are the one thing we all have in common.
In any case, I didn’t think the Kabbalah Hollywood gang considered themselves Jewish – isn’t it a Thing unto itself at this stage?
I did a poll in my office today, after reading this. I’m late 30s and never knew of anybody uncircumcised in this day and age beyond the older man I once dated when I was in my 20s.
We have a lot of twenty somethings and very early thirties in my office (females), and they were horrified at the thought of an uncircumcised penis. One said her 25-year-old boyfriend was uncircumcised and he told her he has always been embarrassed by it because no one else he knew is uncircumcized and he said he’s afraid to get it done as an adult because he’s afraid of the pain. He resents his parents for not doing it when he was a baby.
I’m sure it’s different in every country what is the custom.
While I was in my room crying my eyes out over sending him to be cut, my mom watched my newborn son’s circumcision by peeking through a single wayward slat in the blinds covering the OR windows, lol. She said he slept through the literally 10 second procedure…didn’t even flinch.
jfc. leave the poor dongs ALONE! if someone proposed to do this to girls, you would be horrified. poor dumbass guy. ughhh.
@Leigh – @Roma
ROTFL … best …story … ever
I have a vision of you holding up the blankets and delicately poking at it with a stick
LMAO! Oh God, great mental picture. xD!
@Ruby – ” Imagine some guy dumping you because your vajajay is not all that cute- let’s face it they are not. “
…. Good point. I don’t know why, but most people just don’t think about it this way. It’s insane, but I saw this thing about how a lot of women are going in & getting cosmetic survery on their labia… I mean, WTF… People’s junk shouldn’t be expected to win any beauty pageants…
It is NOT painless.
And who the hell cares how it LOOKS? So it’s just cosmetic surgery? On babies. Wow.
Ug. Intact is awesome.
Kabbalah co-founder Karen Berg
* * * *
No, she’s the co-founder of the Hollywood Cult of Kabbalah. Kabbalah itself is Jewish mysticism and has been around for a very long time.
Circumcision, male or female, is wrong period. Permanently altering someone’s body when they’re a helpless infant who cannot give consent is barbaric and violates the inherent rights every human being has to be in control of this or her own body. If someone wants to be circumcised as an adult, that should be their decision.
I would not be surprised if we followed this policy and circumcision were quickly be left in the past.
Yeah uncuts are OK until you are spitting out some headcheese because the guy forgot to pull it back and wash under there. It is a hygiene issue. Circumcised penises are much cleaner. End of story.
BabyCakes: TMI..that is revolting! Even after reading this gross story I still find Mr Ritchie to be Piping Hot…if I asked my husband to do that he would tell me to f#*@ off.
Huh, my kids are 8 and 10 and GIRLS thanks to goodness I never had to fight with my (cut) ex who wanted to cut any little boys that showed up in our family. But I read up on it at the time and here in the US it was getting to be 50/50 cut/uncut (in my age cohort it is like 99% cut). SO I predict all these girls who are growing up with the aesthetic of removing all body hair and being very concerned about cleanliness “down there” are going to have a rude awakening when all these uncut little boys grow up!
P.S. Both styles are just dandy. Don’t have sex with men with poor hygiene, cut or uncut!
I think Americans on average (Jewish or not) circumcise more than other countries. In Australia, most guys I know are uncut, and quite a few of my gay friends say they don’t know what to do with a cut one because it changes everything.
The first one I ever saw, and “dealt with”, was uncut. He was born prematurely and there was no time, so when it wasn’t done really early, his parents just left him as is. Every other uncut one I saw either belonged to a guy born in Europe, or he had European immigrant parents.
For purely aesthetic considerations, I prefer cut. But I’m not a man, so whom I say to what HE should do? I could never, ever insist on a spouse getting cut – absolutely barbaric. Sickening. Sign of a psycho control freak who’s utterly thoughtless.
I still think female circumcision is much worse, but no way would I ask a guy to do it.
CB, I asked my german husband about his opinion and it was :He’s lucky he kept the rest of the dong after being married to her.
@blahblah I know a guy who got to keep his foreskin, he was only pricked. His conversion was into, and he still attends, a Conservative synagogue here in Minneapolis that is quite liberal but still a lot more into halacha etc. than for example my Reform synagogue. Maybe it’s a regional thing? Maybe some synagogues are saying “forget it, the guy did the work, he’s a mensch, why make his life harder”?
@ Brin LOL!!
Ugh, even if my mr. Right wanted to do it, i’d put a veto on it.
I’m from europe, mainly catholic country( as in culture and tradition), and until one episode of sex&the city i never thought un-circ. Was a BiG no-no deal.
I informed myself, expecting to read that circ. Turke a man into casanOva in bed or something…he is less sensitive and more prone to damage? No thank you!
I really do think it’s a mentality thing-you know, dePending on the culture you grew up in.
I wouldn’t change my uncirc. Friend no matter what.
He should have told her he’ll do it when she does it.;))))
P.s.: sorry if there are double posts, my iPhone is killing me sometimes.
What Shannon said. Are we suggesting girls get their labia trimmed to look prettier because guys prefer them that way? I seriously can’t believe how many of you are in agreement with the mutilation of a defenseless child for aesthetic reasons!
dread pirate cuervo:
Oh my!!! I’ve never gotten up close & personal with an uncut peen & my “American Exceptionalism” (sarcasm) tells me it’s just weird when they’re not cut.
I’m Swedish, and for me the case is the opposite.
I’ve had around 50 sexual partners in my life (no slut shaming, please, I own my body and enjoy safe sex) and I’ve never encountered a circumcised penis.
I imagine I’d be utterly fascinated –and a little intimidated– by this new toy. A lot of prodding, poking, sophomoric giggling, ooh-ing and aah-ing would certainly ensue.
Definitely a geographical thing. My two sons are uncircumcised as is their father. I am in my thirties and most men of my generation and younger are uncircumcised. In Australia it is now so uncommon for newborn boys to be circumcised that in my home town of Brisbane (popn over 1 million) you cannot get your son circumcised in the hospital after birth and only two private doctors are available in the whole city to perform the procedure. I assume UK trends would be more similar to Aust than the US? Just saying, definitely depends on where you come from 🙂
I can honestly say I have now heard everything I wanted to and DID NOT WANT TO KNOW!!!! about Madonna. Excuse me while I go listen to “Holiday” and try to erase this story from my mind
For those of you comparing female and male circumcision, there really is NO comparison. Cultures that perform female circumcision are doing it so that the girls can no longer enjoy sex. It is done for the purpose of keeping the female faithful to her husband (after all she won’t cheat if it doesn’t feel good). Sometimes the vagina itself is sewn shut when the girls are younger to ensure they remain virgins (only to be opened by penetration on the wedding night). This information is via first hand account from a female circumcision survivor (who lectured at my university).
Even though his daddy IS circumcised, we opted against getting our little boy cut. I agree with others that uncut “look weird” but that’s just because cut is what I am used to. The way I see it, if my son wants to be circumcised he can make that decision himself as an adult.
…As long as we’re talking about this, I fully expected that if I had an infant boy I would have him circumcised, until I made myself watch my cousin’s bris. Now I’m not so sure. For years I thought it must have traumatized him. More recently, with more exposure to others’ babies (and with my cousin turning out an unmitigatedly awesome kid), I’m thinking it might them no more or less than if they got a little cut on their arm, because they don’t yet have an awareness that their penis is “special;” it’s just part of their body.
“Female circumcision” should not even be a phrase used in the English language. At the VERY least it should be referred to as excision. Female genital mutilation (FGM) is loaded but probably still more accurate. In my city we have a large Somali-American population and many women are totally glad they had it, and have culturally very convincing reasons for wanting it done to their daughters. But more and more, their daughters won’t have it…
Imagine the outrage if the roles in this story were reversed and a forum full of men were discussing which they preferred – cut or uncut labia/clitoris.
Genital mutilation is barbaric.
SHE CONTINUES TO BE THE DOUCHE BAG OF ALL DOUCHE BAGS!!!..AND HE’S A FAIRY!!!
The way I see it, if my son wants to be circumcised he can make that decision himself as an adult.
Ding ding ding — fabgrrl wins a teddy bear.
@BabyCakes – “Yeah uncuts are OK until you are spitting out some headcheese because the guy forgot to pull it back and wash under there. It is a hygiene issue. Circumcised penises are much cleaner. End of story.”
…I’m with Andie B… That was incredibly disgusting, & unnecessary. Surely you could’ve found some less crass descriptive words & still got your point across.
I mean, really.
@JC126 – “I still think female circumcision is much worse, but no way would I ask a guy to do it.”
As MorticiansDoItDeader explains, there’s really NO comparson between the two procedures. They have completely different aims, as male circumcision is not done to diminish sexual sensation. Female circumcision is mutilation, & is just HORRID.
@PiedLourde – “I imagine I’d be utterly fascinated –and a little intimidated– by this new toy. A lot of prodding, poking, sophomoric giggling, ooh-ing and aah-ing would certainly ensue.”
LOL!
@Harfang – “In my city we have a large Somali-American population and many women are totally glad they had it, and have culturally very convincing reasons for wanting it done to their daughters. But more and more, their daughters won’t have it…”
These women are glad that they had a procedure that rendered them completely unable to enjoy sex? What sort of ‘culturally very convincing reasons’ do they try to use to talk their daughters into it? God, I can’t understand how ANYONE would want to have this done, or how a mother could subject their child to it.
YES there IS a comparison between male and female circumcision! They both involve removing perfectly healthy body parts for no medical reason. What part of that is so hard to understand? People who decry female circumcision while defending male circumcision can’t have it both ways. Either you’re a hypocrite or you need to say they’re both wrong or they’re both ok.
It doesn’t matter WHY one or the other is done. Both are painful, unnecessary, and permanent procedures that in the majority of cases are performed on infants or children who cannot give consent. Do you get it now?
Wha….???
I’m sorry to be a rain cloud, but I think that the decision is up to the parents. And NO, it’s not just cosmetic. Aside from the obvious religious connotations, it helps aid in sanitation. There are actual studies/stats about circumcised people having less infections down yonder, and overall, from uncircumcised. We have better healthcare today than thousands of years ago, thank heaven, but it’s always been a little more helpful in the hygiene area. Now, doctors give advice to parents in saying that whatever the father is, the child should be also. This way, the child will grow up identifying with the father and not question from a tender age why they’re so different from the only male they know.
It sounds like a lot of people need to really research circumcision before they spout off about it- especially to say that babies don’t feel the pain?? Watch a video of the surgery, then you will know what you’re talking about. http://www.thewholenetwork.org/the-library.html
Female circumcision is done for exactly the same reasons as male circumcision. They think it’s more attractive, more hygienic. Male circ was also introduced to non-Jews as a way to diminish sexual pleasure- it was meant to curb msturbation. Dr. Kellogg, the cornflakes guy, said “A remedy for masturbation which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision, especially when there is any degree of phimosis. The operation should be performed by a surgeon without administering anaesthetic, as the pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment.” And guess what, it is still often done with NO or only topical anesthetic. It’s torture.
In any case, male and female circumcision of BABIES is not about degrees of harm- it’s about their right to keep their genitals intact. I assume (perhaps wrongly! Madonna is scary!) that Mr. Ritchie made this choice of his own free will. But I would bet he’s sorry now.
Clearly he is a GIGANTIC MORON! What an ASS to get circumcised AT ALL, never mind for a woman!! STUPID ASS! AND to allow his son to be mutilated too!? IDIOT!
Do you really believe this nonsense? The only way one could know for sure would be to see him in a public shower (unlikely) or get his medical records (even more unlikely). These kinds of rumours get started for whatever reasons, and there is no real proof other than hearsay. If it is true, then no more Madonna CD’s or DVD’s for me. She will deserve every bad thing that every happens to her if its true.
Now, for those of you who are debating as to if male or female genital mutilation is worse, they are both the same in that its a violation of human rights regardless as to the degree of loss or pain. When the knife meets a child’s clitoris or penis, its a crime because neither are consenting. Did you see the NBC NY article on the Queens baby that recently died from a “routine circumcision”? Male genital mutilation did get started a century ago to diminish sensation and curb masturbation. Some of the people on this site haven’t done their research on the history of this barbaric act.
sheesh, learned so much today… mutilation is barbaric.
Such typical comments. If Guy Ritchie did in fact have himself circumcised, it’s because he wanted to. He was very into Kabbalah and some say he still is. His new girlfriend mentioned she wanted to learn Hebrew for Guy. Don’t let me interrupt you from your Madonna bashing though… yawn.
@mama, “Female circumcision is done for exactly the same reasons as male circumcision. They think it’s more attractive, more hygienic. Male circ was also introduced to non-Jews as a way to diminish sexual pleasure.”
female circumcision does not reduce sexual pleasure, it impedes it. Also, there really is no way to draw a parallel between foreskin removal and clitoral mutilation coupled with sewing the vaginal opening closed (in order to ensure the virginity of the girl until marriage). Furthermore, the sexual act is meant to be painful for the girl, when he husband penetrates her surgically sealed vagina.
Addittionally, hospitalized male circumcisions are performed by doctors using a nerve blocker. My 2nd son, now 4 weeks, didn’t even cry during the procedure. He did, however, cry during his vitamin k injection. Which proves he can in fact feel pain
@Shannon, I wish the issue was as black and white as you are trying to paint it.
“In any case, male and female circumcision of BABIES is not about degrees of harm- it’s about their right to keep their genitals intact.”
Thank you, this is exactly how I feel. All other details frankly don’t matter. I don’t care what the reasons for doing it are, because doing it at all is wrong. End of story. If this were a procedure left to adults, I wouldn’t have an issue.
@Shannon FGM involves the cutting off of entire portions of the female anatomy. For boys, the removal of the foreskin is more about removing an “extra” piece of skin than removing a center of pleasure. [Wrong: The foreskin is not “extra” it is integral to the male sexual system. FGM may involve no more than a token nick.] Removing the clitoris, which occurs in many FGM rituals, is done to help ensure that girls do not derive any pleasure from their sexuality, thus encouraging them to remain pure. The male equivalent of FGM would be the removal of the tip of the penis up to and including the removal of the penis and scrotum. Female genital mutilation is far more severe than male circumcision.
Male circumcision very well may not be a good idea and may fade out, but that does not negate the fact that the female version is not equivalent in terms of immediate result or long-term consequence.
why would you mess with nature? there is no way you can improve on the design. i am willing to bet circumcision will be considered barbaric in a few years. it is not more hygenic,and putting a baby under the knife because it looks better…
@MorticiansDoItDeader – I completely agree with your position on this.
I can’t believe there are so many people who think there’s ANY comparison between the male/female circumcision. The result of male circumcision is a visual change (that does NOT affect the sexual function/sensation of the male.)
Female circumcision is NOT done for the sake of a visual change. It’s entire goal is to render the female unable to experience sexual pleasure (& in many cases, intentionally make intercourse uncomfortable/painful.) There’s a HUGE difference between a procedure that’s results are purely visual, & results that destroy normal natural sexuality.
Like you said… The male version may very well die off, if enough parents decide against it. But the female version is considered a religious/cultural MUST in many societies… A cruelty the woman will live with for the rest of her life.
Non -religiuos male circumcision in the “white Western world” has either died out or is dying out where it is still practiced.Among newborn Caucasians in the UK and New Zealand it is virtually unheard of nowadays.It is is uncommon and becoming more and more uncommon in Australia and Canada and decreasing in the USA.Nowadays,most of the Western states of the USA have a newborn circ rate as low as Canada and Australia.In the United States if one lives in the Western USA,the border states or large metropolitan area. I do not think you have to worry that your son will be different if left intact,natural and people who think that in the USA leaving your son intact is only a phenomena of immigrants,I say that in Washington and Oregon state it is “All American” whites,blacks and others who are not circumcising their sons,if only the rest of America would learn.If most of them are circumcised and left their sons intact what is the big deal of sons having to be like fathers? If this would be the case then all men in the USA should be uncircumcised since a generation ago most men in the USA were uncircumcised.In the USA its all a matter of time ,in a few generations most boys will be uncircumcised in the USA as well.When the uncuts grow up and leave their sons uncut,multiply that and its a matter of time,it will never die out completly ,but will sure look like Canada and Australia.As far as religious male circumcision I do not think it will “die out” any time soon.
Sadly, girls in countries where they perform FGM do not get to go to a big city and have a trained doctor to circumcise them. Usually it is done in small villages, and the person doing it does not have access to any medical equipment, so they use whatever is on hand. It’s not only dangerous because of where they’re cutting, but also what they’re cutting with.
You are right Cherry Rose ,many times female circumcision is done with old blades ,etc. But in many cultures throughout the world male circumcision is done in the same way ,in many parts of tribal Africa and some of the Australian Aborigines are still in the stone age literally cause they perform male circumciisons with stones.and believe it or not in some countries like Egypt and Somalia doctors,yes medically trianed MDs do female circumcisions,there is a famous Somali model who states she came from a well to do Somali family and her mother took her at a young age to get circumcised by a doctor,not the norm ,but yes it happens.
My dad converted to Judaism @ 40 and got circumcised then…
@Hakura, thank you for expounding on my arguement, well said.
@cherry rose, excellent point. Although you alluded to it, I’d also like to add that infection is a common side effect of FGM (due to the lack of sterilization of tools). Also infection and “improper technique” (although I’m not sure how anything about FGM could be considered proper) put these women at a increased risk of death.
@Hakura: According to our close family friend who is a gynecological nurse practitioner working almost exclusively with Somali women at the big hospital downtown here, many women who grew up in Somalia have a belief that their lack of genital sensitivity sets them above men; that their men sometimes act like sexual sheep who can’t think straight, and that what they call something neutral like circumcision enables them to have sensibility and focus in their lives. I’m serious. I’m sure much of this sentiment is more than a bit Stockholm-syndromey, but on the other hand, how do you tell tens of thousands of adult women that there’s something fundamentally horrible with a very personal part of their culture that they value a lot?
As I said though, many of their daughters and granddaughters seem to be outgrowing the belief that it’s “better this way” or what have you. So there will probably only be 1 or 2 generations of the status quo culture of this metro area having to be tolerant of the majority of Somali women being genitally mutilated. But the tolerance is a necessary evil. If we just scream and wave our arms in these ladies’ faces, we’re patronizing them, pretending we can think and speak for them. Just like, for example, middle-class white second-wave feminists’ overall massive failure with American and European women who are non-white and/or upper-lower class or “below.” Ultimate respect has many gray areas.
…I meant, being tolerant of their irreversible state of genital mutilation when applicable. Of course it’s illegal, and of course the laws are being enforced, including by leaders in the Somali community. Naturally, I think some of them look the other way, but it’s very difficult to measure who and how many.
I’m with MorticiansDoItDeader and Hakura on this one.
Personally, I prefer a circumcised P-E-N-I-S (Katie Holmes might read this someday, you know): it’s cleaner and looks prettier.
By the way, if Guy Ritchie got circumcised, that was because he wanted to.
P.S.: One of the most gorgeous male bodies I’ve ever seen belongs to German actor Thomas Kretschmann — I saw this scene from a movie where he’s leaving a steamy shower. The only thing turning me off was that huge foreskin — if he ever got circumcised, he could use the removed skin to make a couch slipcover (true story!).
Ifind so many of you on this site hpocritical. Why mess with nature… people should leave their bodies alone… blah blah blah. but just the other day many of you were writing about waxing off all of the hair from you bodies. No hair on your vaginas, arms, legs, foreheads… what happened to being natural?
@MorticiansDoItDeader – I was horrified to see a documentary revolving around FGM… It was in a very poor ‘village’-like area, & all the women would gather around to hold the girl down. Like you mentioned, they didn’t have access to any sterile materials… far from it… The woman in this case used a piece of broken glass.
The journalists doing the documentary didn’t interfere… but several of them had to leave to be physically ill. I … understand wanting to respect someone’s beliefs & culture, but I just *couldn’t* be there & not do something.
@Harfang – Wow. I really hadn’t thought about it from that perspective before. I couldn’t conceive of any possible reason a woman would *want* to have this done… But your explanation does at least apply a ‘reason’ behind it. (Even though it’s still awful & unfair.) FGM seems to be most common in patriarchal societies, I’m sure that’s no coincidence.
@crtb – “I find so many of you on this site hpocritical. Why mess with nature… people should leave their bodies alone… blah blah blah. but just the other day many of you were writing about waxing off all of the hair from you bodies. No hair on your vaginas, arms, legs, foreheads… what happened to being natural?”
Personally, I think there’s a big difference between permanent alterations to one’s body (like surgery/implants), & popular grooming habits (hair removal). Unfortunately, it’s just human nature to look for ways to make ourselves more attractive. The things themselves have changed by the decade, but the premise is the same.
Completely ‘natural’ will probably never be the ideal…. But who knows, it got pretty close back in the 70’s.
Actually, to all those comments above about Princes William and Harry – they are intact. Apparently it caused a bit of a stir when they were left that way, but hopefully they appreciate that their mother broke that “tradition” with them. 😉
I also circumcised on my girlfriends request. She’s not jewish, so it was a matter of cosmetics only, but I wasn’t offended. As long as it’s done voluntarily, it’s all ok.
The baby cannot consent. The adult man can. Why are you making it sound like it’s worse for an adult to willingly have highly damaging cosmetic surgery performed on him than it is to force it on a newborn (who WILL suffer excruatingly during the procedure and WILL remember it and perhaps resent his parents for failing to protect him everytime he sees his mutilated organ)?
About Madonna,I think that Guy Richie getting circumcised and Madonna having her son circumcised are just rumors.First of all she just follows kabblah never has converted to Judaism and then remember there were rumors she wanted her adopted son from Malawi circumcised for the same reason.