Beyonce covers the May issue of Vogue UK, and this shoot is just… not good. I usually like Vogue UK shoots – they do some imaginative stuff, even with a smaller budget than American Vogue. But I don’t get what the goal was for this one. Maybe it was just slim pickings for fashion or something. As for the interview… well, there are gems. Some highlights:
Does Beyonce consider herself a feminist? “That word can be very extreme… But I guess I am a modern-day feminist. I do believe in equality. Why do you have to choose what type of woman you are? Why do you have to label yourself anything? I’m just a woman and I love being a woman. If you’re attractive then you can’t be sexy, and you can’t be intelligent? What is all of that?…”
The criticism for calling herself ‘Mrs. Carter’: “I do believe in equality and that we have a way to go and it’s something that’s pushed aside and something that we have been conditioned to accept. But I’m happily married. I love my husband. I feel like Mrs Carter is who I am, but more bold and more fearless than I’ve ever been. It comes from knowing my purpose and really meeting myself once I saw my child. I was like, ‘OK, this is what you were born to do.’ The purpose of my body became completely different.”
She wants Blue Ivy to follow her dreams: “I definitely want my daughter to have goals and drive and passion – it has to be a balance. I hope she figures it out. Whatever makes her happy, I’m there. I do feel like I’m going to be honest with my daughter.”
Well, at least she didn’t pull a Taylor Swift and act like feminism is a dirty word, although Bey does seem to be under the impression that calling herself a feminist might create some backlash. I guess? Beyonce goes back and forth on this stuff – I think she does have feminist principles and she’s “anti-woman” or “anti-feminist” because she’s proud of being a wife and mother, you know? She doesn’t have the most coherent life philosophy, but really… who does?
Meanwhile, did you hear that Beyonce has covered Amy Winehouse’s “Back to Black” for the soundtrack for The Great Gatsby? Bey teamed with Andre 3000 for a duet, and the entire soundtrack is being produced by Jay-Z. I think it sounds interesting, but Winehouse’s family are already issuing statements and demanding that Beyonce donate money to the Winehouse charity.
Photos courtesy of Vogue UK.
oddly enough…
her expression in the 3rd pic summarizes my complete feeling for her. 🙄
She is personification of “try hard”. No fun, no spontaneity – everything about her is so rehearsed and calculated.
Her face is looking hard these days. Too much weight loss/lipo?
lol. And that’s the best pic of the three tbh.
Hmmm I guess I agree with Beyonce about feminism.
Then you’re a moron too.
It’s easy for women born post-second wave to make these comments. You’ve never had to be “extreme” because you’ve never been denied civil liberties on the basis of your vagina. I used to say I was a post-feminist when I was in college, and I really meant it at the time having never lived outside the pampered world of adolescence. But I am now in my thirties an educated, makeup & high heel wearing, man loving (oh, yes, with a history to prove it) professional who is also a HARD CORE feminist.
Agreed! I think a lot of the young women who denounce feminism or who act like it’s something bad do so because they don’t fully understand feminism. Between the girls who are starving and purging themselves, the body-shaming, the girls who think sex is something to ‘just get over with’ or that sexuality is just something to use to be popular with the boys, and the slut-shaming snobby females who think a woman’s ‘modesty’ in dress and lack of sexual experience- a.k.a. her ‘purity’ and silence about sex- are the things that determine whether or not she is self-respecting and has morals, I think my generation, including all the teens and preteens under me (I’m 20) could really use some feminism. If I ever have kids I will raise them to see the regressive repressive conservative/libertine crap in our culture for what it is. Whether male or female, my kids will not grow up being taught to buy into the pornographic chauvinist “women exist to please men sexually and nothing else matters, women must be slaves to media-promoted standards of beauty” mentality or the conservative, sexually repressive “if a woman is sexually assertive and wears what she wants she is a nasty tramp who doesn’t deserve human respect and she’s ‘asking for it’ approach. And I will encourage them to follow their dreams. What kids are taught matters. And yes, I am an equality-promoting, proud, sex-loving, man-loving, wear-what-I-please, stand-on-my-own-two-feet feminist, who has both human-vulnerabilities and strengths.
@Blaize: I’m so proud of you right now.
Oh, man. The photoshop on her thighs. So horribly done. It’s like if a woman’s thighs ever touch at the top, the world will explode or something.
I was thinking the same thing on he Hayden Panettiere thread. What is it about magazine editors and women’s thighs? Why do they always have to make them into two anatomically improbable parallel sticks? Even very thin women tend to have some fat on their thighs, and Beyonce certainly does. What’s the problem?
+2… not many women have stick thighs, with THAT MUCH space between them at the top!
On GMA last week, they had a story about “thigh gap.” Apparently this is a thing. A very popular thing among young girls. There are tumblr pages dedicated to it and girls go around measuring their thigh gap. Pictures like this just perpetuate the problem.
my thighs touch (more like mash together but whatever) but if i bend over really oddly like she is, even I have the slightest bit of gap. So while I totally believe that she is photoshopped out the wazoo, the pose she is in creates a gap as well. the ‘shopping and posing combined just perpetuates the idea that women need this weird gap. anyone who has seen her in jeans/leggings know that gap doesn’t really exist.
I don’t buy magazines like Vogue anymore, since it’s all photoshopped. It’s harmful to women and especially girls.
If I want to see artificial women, I’ll watch a cartoon about cyborgs.
The thing about thigh gap…
Sometimes if you stand with your legs a few inches apart, your legs can actually “meet” more than if you put your knees together. I know everyone got upset about a magazine cover where B had a big thigh gap, but her knees were together and her back was arched, making her hips rotate…thus a bigger than normal gap.
I was thinking those thick thighs (not shaming, I like strong thick thighs) were photoshopped to high hell. Wish all the mags would stop carving out her thighs like that.
Re: back to black
Why does Beyonce or Jay-Z have to donate the proceeds to the Winehouse charity? Yes that would be nice of them. But as long as they paid the licensing fees (which would go to Winehouse estate) I don’t see why they should be shamed into donating on top of that. Especially considering how the dad has been somewhat famedwhore-ish about Amy when they didn’t even have a good relationship when she was alive.
Dang, I could have just +1000 your comment instead of rambling in mine. LOL
Buckwild
Does Amy’s family has the rights to all her songs or at least this one? If a label had it then I can see why he’s asking for this. Maybe the family just gets a small royalty. I have no idea so please enlighten me if you can.
Maybe her dad has been hustling for the charity a bit, but I wouldn’t call it famewhoring. I’d call it grief. Amy and her dad had a bad relationship because he kept trying to force sobriety on her, but towards the last year they were repairing the relationship.
I’ve looked into the charity. They do more good than most charities that take a high salary for themselves… Susan G.K is notorious for paying board members millions while spending millions suing other charities for using “blank for the cure”.
FLORC
Maybe I was unnecessarily harsh towards the dad there. I’m not sure where the licensing fee would go to. But the point is, personally as long as everything is done legally (as in Beyonce/Jay/Gatsby production people) paid an obtained permission from whoever is the rightful owner of that song rights (be it Winehouse family or record label) to record her version, I don’t see why they should have to go above and beyond that to donate to the charity. It’s a CHARITY which means any contributions here would be voluntary. I just felt like the tone of the estate/dad’s point was attacking Beyonce when it’s not as if she stole the song. Plus I would think that exposure in the movie would prompt ppl to go and listen or buy the Winehouse track as well, which would of course heighten awareness. Whether Amy was a great songwriter, Beyonce is an autotuned copycat etc doesn’t really logically factor into this equation to me.
But personally I do think Amy’s voice is one of the most memorable voices in music in the last while. I’m going to turn up her song on my iPod in memory of her today!
“Does Amy’s family has the rights to all her songs or at least this one?”
With covers, rights don’t really matter as there is no authorization needed (unlike when you use the actual track). If you are using a recording, you need permission. If you are doing a cover, no permission is needed.
Royalites will still be paid to the writer/producers/publishers of the song each time it (or a cover) is played and sold. My guess is Amy’s estate gets the publishing royalties that would have gone to her. They will be getting paid, a contribution to charity is double-dipping.
+ 1 on that, Buckwild.
The Winehouse family seems sketch. I love that song and am curious what Beyonce does with it.
It looks like she’s bending over to sneeze or fart
lol
She is no one worth looking up to and this just confirms it for me. Her “why label women anything” response (….like a feminist you mean?) is a total cope out. She is clearly uneducated if she honestly thinks feminism is extreme. Thats a stereotype. She can thank the feminists before her for helping pave the way for all the reproductive and womens rights she enjoys today.
+1. I hate it when succesful young women are ambivalent about, or even hostile to, feminism. If it weren’t for feminism, Ms Knowles (not that the word ‘Ms’ would exist) would be unable to vote (no singing for Obama for her!), have no control over their bodies, noty allowed to work without their husbands’ consent and generally be legal minors all their lives. And that ‘Mrs Carter’ stuff is so cloying.
Yes thank you! Signed, an older generation who helped pave the way…
Thank You Older Generation!
How extreme to want equal rights!
I’m guessing her attitude is ‘who needs equal rights when you’ve got billions in the bank?’
So true Christina, and that has been the case throughout history. The privileged women have had an easier time. Even though some were probably heavily encouraged to marry a certain person.
It still happens in this day and age in other countries a lot thought. I remember watching Oprah and her interviewing the Queen of Jordan and the Queen said that it was not an obligation to wear the head veil. But one of my sister’s friends who is from Jordan said that, that only applies to the privileged women and that poor women had no such choices. She herself was forced to marry otherwise she would be hurt or possibly killed!
@Christina: Which is a motto that would not apply to her had women not fought for equal rights long before. She had the chance to make a better life for herself (ie. have her own career before hooking up with Jay-Z, and have her own millions) because of the equal rights women had already achieved. Without equal rights, Beyonce would be nothing. She wouldn’t even be married to Jay-Z because she only met him after she became famous. She’s an idiot if she thinks she would have the life she has now if not for the feminists that came before her that fought for her to have that life for herself.
Addison, in both Jordan and Palestine (where Rania is from) there is no legal or religious obligation to wear the veil. Priviliged or no privilged (in fact some refugees from the camps in Jordan and Palestine absolutely did not wear the veil and were actually quite leftists, embracing marxist ideology. And being a refugee in Jordan was considered the poorest of all social classes).
You will only be forced if you come from an extremist family and even then if you appeal to the sharia courts, you are within your right not to be forced. There are many NGOs and women’s charities that combat that sort of thing.
Well said, Mela.
Go to any random website not dominated by women and you’ll see countless of sexist comments, some of which very extreme(“That ho deserved to be raped!” “All women need to be chained in the kitchen, har har” “smack the bitch around”). But do we call those male commenters extreme anything? No.
Yet people can never talk about feminism without mentioning extremism. There are far more people mentioning this supposed extremism than there are extremist feminists.
Agree 100%. I wish that the term “bitch” was seen as the bad word rather than “feminist”.
Don’t know what sites you’ve been on, Flan, but anytime I see any of the comments you’re talking about, they’re either trolling, or immediately taken down verbally in the comment section. I’ve seen multiple movements/web posts about stopping violence against women. There’s only ever been a minority of people who seriously meant that shit you were talking about, and they were always laughed at. However, log onto tumblr and search the misandry tag, and you’ll see dozens of women openly plotting ways to kill men with no repercussion, while the instant someone side-eyes a woman, they’re attacked as sexist. Even with the harmless obviously trolling ones. I’ve seen women claim that one night stands are rape, and denounce male rape victims, with nary a cry of outrage. Erin Prizzey was attacked simply because she said that men can be abused by women, and people violently protesting Warren Farrell a former feminist who denounced the movements when he saw that feminisim didn’t appear to be evolving or helping. And yet, women are constantly being attacked while men get off scot-free with no repercussions? Give me a break… And btw, Tumblr is a female dominated site, so to act as if bigotry and hatred is relegated to only male-dominated activities is just BS to me.
When men do it, they’re only joking. But when women do it, they must be serious, right? That doesn’t make any sense.
I don’t know what you do online, that you hang out on misandry blogs, but I see women-hating comments frequently on supposedly gender neutral websites, like newssites, moviereview sites or youtube.
What I do know is that those misandry bloggers, or whatever they call themselves, get talked about way more than those many commenters on ‘neutral’ websites get brought up.
You don’t have to find internet trolls to see that kind of comment. Just turn on the radio! Rick Ross’s recent lyrics…
“Put Molly all in her champagne, she ain’t even know it. I took her home and I enjoyed that, she ain’t even know it.”
And he is sponsored by Reebok.
Flan–you might want to go through my post and read it more carefully. I said *even when they are trolling* not they are always trolling, people are bashing them and taking it very seriously. I was in the misandry tag, because I wanted to see viewpoints of people on the other end of the gender spectrum(SHOCKING I know)when I came along these horrible comments, and I noticed how horrible these women were being, and the amouunt of support they were earning from other women. Your position seems to be that we should ignore all the radfems because they make you uncomfortable, instead of reasonably addressing these people. If so many people are complaining about them, there must be some legitimate reason other than they’ve been brainwashed by men. And the fact that there are so many anti-sexism movements tells me that people are in fact discussing misogyny plenty, while the fact that so many feminists choose to ignore their radicals, allowing them to flourish instead of actively critcizing them speaks volumes to me.
There are certain aspects (or maybe branches is a better word) of 2nd wave feminism which I don’t agree with – for instance, with regard to transgender rights, or inclusion/understanding of women of colour. So I could also describe feminism, in some ways, as being extreme, while calling myself a feminist.
I can also understand that some women have good reasons for not wanting to be labelled a feminist.
Imo, to describe the entire essence of feminism as extreme in the tone Beyonce did is a put down.
You don’t agree with inclusion/understanding of women of color? That puzzles me.
sorry I apparently wasn’t clear – I said with regard to both transgender rights and inclusion/understanding of women of colour — there can be aspects of feminism that are hostile to both.
Agree. Beyonce doesn’t understand Feminism. She is confusing it with the freedom that extraordinary wealth brings. She has not got to where she is because of feminism. She and Jay Z live an obsence existence due to their arrogance and perpetual greed.
Beyonce is no role model of mine.
Amy Winehouse was a good singer; around for a few years. Why does Beyonce have to pay tribute to her by donating money to her family/charity? I would imagine that the money producers had to pay for the right to do the song in the first place was substantial. Amy Winehouse is not the freaking godfather. History gets rewritten once people die. She was a good singer who stumbled around wasted with open sores and dirty ballet slippers. She wasn’t healing the sick and curing cancer.
Monie
History isn’t being rewritten here.
1. You can’t say for sure Amy’s family is getting paid a lot for this. I’m still looking around to see what they did receive.
2. Amy was around for more than a few years. Even once she was signed she didn’t get the crazy attention until she was into hard drugs and the tabs covered her only for her issues.
3. She was a good singer, but a great song writer! Few people could write songs like her and even fewer could write and sing like her.
4 Amy wasn’t curing cancer. She was struggling with addiction which is extremely serious.
Side note: Bey is a good singer and dancer. Song writer.. no. And some songs were even better as remakes, but I have a feeling this will be auto tuned to hell with electronic noise instead of simple instruments. The sing doesn’t need to be remade, but Bey needs a hit or her career will never be what it was.
This is a cover of a song Amy wrote. Her estate will be entitled to her share of royalties for each time the song is played or sold (as will EMI and Mark Ronson who are the publisher, co-writer, and producer).
I think that might be the worst photo shoot ever. Did they use all the wind machines?
Well, they may have had to…..
In every single pic she is farting.
I HATE that she is doing an Amy song.
HATE IT.
I hate that cover of Vogue! To me, Beyonce is just an entertainer.
agreed!
that vogue cover flatlines (though i like the blue) and i stopped listening to the opinions of artists ages ago.
soooo budget.
why couldn’t JOAN SMALLS or any of the SUPERMODELS or any of the happening new Asian models…Liu Wen or Du Juan get a cover????!!!!
grrrrrrrrrrrrr.
The editor of British is on record saying that black/ethnic girls don’t sell. At the time she was throwing shade on the all black italian vogue edition that came out August 2008.
In her entire 20 year tenure, black girls have all but disappeared from the Magazine. I can’t remember the last time Noami made the cover, and Jordan Dunn has also never made the cover despite being a celebrated and very successful model.
And not just black girls, I am talking ALL ethnic models and white girls who don’t fit the waif ideal. Only exception being Alexa Chung who has made the cover several times, but her mixed race heritage (half white/chinese) isn’t prominent in her features.
In recent years, only Rihanna and now Beyonce have made the cover. And only because they are international celebrities first. She’s never featured a black/ethnic british celebrity.
Postscript to the all black Italian vogue: it’s the best selling edition of vogue in Britain. Ever. Which was proper egg on her face!!!!! It’s now a collectors item.
yes FABULOUS issue.
Naomi is on the cover of the new Italian Vogue btw!!!! hee hee
Agree fully, that has been an endless complaint by anyone following fashion; I thought European fashion mags were generally free from the celebrity taint, but I guess I’m wrong; The celebrification of fashion mags has ruined them; I wouldn’t doubt it if these covers were bought by pr teams;
Bouncy’s an idiot and hopefully her endless self promotion will backfire;
BTW, another new model no waif and 29 yrs old is Kati Nescher feature New York style magazine a few months ago; More worthy of a cover than this self-absorbed twit.
Ugh, can’t be arsed to say anything more so I’m just going to paste some tweets of mine from this morning when I read this.
Am sick to my eyeballs of these celeb “I’m a feminist but..” apologists.
Beyonce wants the tag ‘feminist’ but calls it “extreme”, reminds us she is happily married. Not one of us lonely,man-hating,spinster feminists, ya know?
She peddles words like “fearless” and “feminist” but reminds us she still “all woman”. Feminism is a good word to throw around for Vogue magazine but someone who is “all woman” doesn’t want to be ‘too feminist’
Beyonce, take off your sting-ray boots for a day & get into shoes of women for whom feminism isn’t “extreme” or a magazine catch phrase but merely a fight for equality.
*rant over*
well said. I give some of these women too much credit!
One time my sister told me that being too much of a feminist was wrong. All because I complained about women putting up with men cheating all the time and that we didn’t have to. She gave me a talk on how men >> women. Always.
Then a few days ago she said something that pissed me off soooo much: “Look, I’m a busy woman. I have to tend to my ~husband~”. Tend to your husband. Like you’re his maid. It was just so… Disappointing because she has a masters degree and lots of work experience, and she used to make A LOT more money than him, but he moved her to this god forsaken town because he wanted to be closer to his family and now they’re living on his tiny salary, with no future and very little money and she has to settle with that. It’s like she sacrificed everything she had because his will > her will. And she’s incredibly depressed now because she can’t find work in that awful place and she has no friends there.
Like some girls truly believe they are less than men and you’re not fulfilled unless you serve to one. Seeing someone like Beyonce be so defensive about feminism when she’s supposedly super powerful and a great woman makes me very sad, because if you don’t believe in feminism you automatically believe you are less than a man. And I don’t care how many records you sell, you’re letting us all down with that mentality that he is above you.
My grandmother had that same attitude.
“Your only thought should be making your husband happy”
That’s why my mom stayed in a TERRIBLE marriage for 45 years, put up with my dads’ cheating, his laziness, treating her and us girls like crap, and so on.
I teach both of my granddaughters that you don’t need a man or anyone else to make you complete.
Those are horrible pictures. Yuk. She might want to reshoot it.
Does she have to bring giving birth into every interview? Her going on & on about it isn’t going to wear me down into believing it.
She’s a beautiful woman, but enough with the photoshop. I like seeing real faces; Beyonce’s face is certainly nothing that needs ‘improving’. Ditto that for her body. Let’s be strong females by providing real and realistic standards of beauty to our children.
So will Beyonce pass off Amy’s song as her own since she bought the rights?? How does this work?
You don’t buy rights when you do a cover. You have to pay royalties to the writer/producer/publisher (typically) for each time the song is played or sold. In this case, the movie’s production company would be paying these fees.
If they would be using the actual recording of Amy doing this song, they would have to pay for using the written song AND the audio, and they would have to get permission to use the audio.
The feminism of today isn’t just a cry for equal rights. It’s become an “us vs. those women” kind of institution.
You can hate a woman’s opinion all you like, but if someone feels that way, there has to be SOME truth to it…
Oh please most of her outfits and poses would land her in an up scale hooker hotel. Calling herself a feminist means that she is delusional and very stupid.
This is the new reality: women in their 20s and 30s are embarrassed to call themselves feminists because a-holes like Rush Limbaugh coined the term “feminazis” and they have been trained to think being coveted and sexy is the ultimate goal in life.
The truth is Beyonce is (regardless of whether you like her stuff or not) one very accomplished and talented woman, with or without her husband. That said, I don’t in the least think there’s anything wrong with showing her love for him and their marriage by referring to herself as “Mrs Carter.” In her prolific work, she embodies feminism no matter what she calls herself.
+ 1, although I’m not afraid to call myself a feminist.
I agree with everything you said, except the last part. I personally don’t think Beyonce embodies feminism. She is pretty much the product of male manufacturing. Her father molded her pretty well. Nevertheless, like you, I don’t see how her expressing her love for her husband and wanting to be called “Mrs. Carter” is anti-feminist.
Let’s not forget that she’s now super famous thanks to jay-z, so no, she’s no feminist.
I dont’ think she is super famous because of Jay-Z. She was the star of Destiny’s Child long before she was with Jay.
Thank you, Caroline.
I am related to people who like to tell me who a feminist is based on Limbaugh’s “feminazi”. I tell them I am a feminist, but they don’t believe me because I don’t match Rush’s imagination. I try to explain that the “feminazi” only exists from nine to noon on right wing radio.
if she’s representative of her generation’s view of feminism — be prepared to lose your vote, ladies…
she’s a friggin idiot who would never have made it to the level she’s at had she never coined the word ‘bootilicious’…
Whether she truly “coined” that word is debatable in light of how she blatantly steals other artists material & dance moves passes it off as her own. Maybe popularized it’s usage.
Not feeling these photos at all.
Her interviews used to be so bad but it seems that she’s improved and has found a way to be open and share her views but still keep things to herself.
As for her naming her tour ‘Mrs. Carter’ (going to see it twice. I’m so happy) I think it’s really nice. Just because she’s a boss and business woman it doesn’t mean that she can’t be a happily married woman. She can have it all and she does, Jay is the biggest Beyonce stan and even with all of his side projects Beyonce is still more popular and still makes more than him year after year.
As for her quotes on feminism…she’s pretty vague about it in this interview but I can’t say I blame her since the feminist movement hasn’t always exactly opened their arms to black women (or any women of colour tbh). Kerry Washington recently said that she identified with the womanist movement and even though she got some flak for it, I’m right there with her. I mean, I could go back in history to give examples but there are some pretty good examples here in 2013.
Lena Dunham gets naked and feminists be like: ‘Oh she’s so empowered, this is a feminist victory, she’s so brave’
Beyonce wears a leotard at the superbowl (even though she has an all-female, all WOC band with her , singing Single Ladies at Americas’ most testosterone filled event) : ‘Oh this is an outrage, this is so problematic, she’s setting feminism back because she’s half naked’
Beyonce uses the word ‘bitch’: ‘this is an outrage, she’s a fake feminist, how can she use a word with such an awful history’
Katy Perry, Lady Gaga, Britney Spears, Ke$ha, Xtina etc. use ‘bitch’: ‘Oh we’re reclaiming the word, women can use ‘bitch’ because it’s our word…’
It’s a wonder that she calls herself a feminist at all because they have dragged her through the mud. My god.
wow, never realized that. very insightful. thanks for sharing!
I would like to see concrete examples of the ideas you’ve presented. I read a wide variety of literature and I don’t remember reading an “official feminist” quote on either Lena Dunham or Beyonce.
And please don’t even get me started on your ridiculous statement that the feminist movement hasn’t traditionally embraced black women. Clearly you aren’t familiar with the Second Wave of feminism and are just spouting off. But you go ahead and enjoy your Beyonce concert.
All of this explains why this younger generation is in such danger of losing rights – because you don’t know your history, and don’t respect the women who paved the paths you so casually take for granted.
Please read:
http://www.academia.edu/223818/Being_Lovingly_Knowingly_Ignorant_White_Feminism_and_Women_of_Color
We haven’t exactly been welcomed with open arms or valued highly in the early days of the feminist movement.
I’m a black woman and many black/Asian/native American/Hispanic women will tell you themselves that the feminist movement wasn’t always kind to us WOC. What, do you think that they Womanist movement came about because WOC were bored ? Please.
‘All of this explains why this younger generation is in such danger of losing rights – because you don’t know your history, and don’t respect the women who paved the paths you so casually take for granted.’
Your condescending attitude is so cute. I love it. There’s nothing young about me and I know my history, it’s the reason I gladly call myself a FEMINIST (and a WOMANIST. I can be both) but I’ll be throwing shade on mainstream feminism until the WoC who I love and trust let me know that feminism has stopped excluding them.
I know who paved the way for me my dear.
Black women were feminists’ way back when we were running empires and kingdoms in Egypt.
Black women were feminists when their husbands were being sold leaving them to raise their families and the slave owners families by their d*mn selves.
But mainstream feminist movement came along and suddenly we were being left out of everything and we still are (‘Girls’ anyone?).
Feminism is in our blood.
That right there is my history.
And to add to that…
Kristen Stewart cheats on her boyfriend with a married man in public. Feminists run to her defence: ‘Leave her alone, she’s young, she made a mistake…’
Beyonce accused of fake pregnancy: *crickets* where are the feminists to defend her?
Some of the ‘feminists’ on here would run into a building with a kamikaze for Lena Dunham but sh*t on Beyonce left and right, day and night and I just don’t get it. I ‘get’ the hate for her as a musician because her and Daddy Knowles were/are shady (and she’s not original even when she claims to be) but the hate she gets on here is so much more than that and it’s baffling because I know that if Cate Blanchet had said the same words Beyonce is saying, there would be a collective round of applause from everyone here.
I’m a feminist and would never defend Kristen Stewart’s choices.
God forbid.
And good for Beyonce for using the word at all, in a positive way.
Don’t make blanket statements unless you have proof to back it up – like Taylor Swift.
Why do feminists defend Kristen anyway? Where was her sense of sisterhood when she meddled in someone’s marriage? The marriage of someone she worked with, who invited her over for dinner plenty of times and let her hang out with her kids?
Just because she’s a girl, we should not support her through awful choices she makes. Just don’t call her awful names and remember to also make the man responsible. But don’t defend bad behavior.
It’s not correct what you say. Whenever I see a Lena Dunham article on this website, the response to her has been overwhelmingly negative.
You project your hate against racists on commenters here. This website is called Celebitchy and everyone is bitched about, lots of people more than Beyonce.
For many women there’s a sense of disappointment with Beyonce since she first, with Destiny’s Child, had many songs about empowering women. People liking that were a significant portion of her fans. Since she turned away from that, she disappointed a number of her fans. That is only logical.
That said, I do wish we got more coverage on her charitable endeavours, since she does have these. In the media she’s mostly put away as a diamons loving rapper’s wife and Beyonce is way more than that.
Feminists would also benefit a lot from listening more to Women of Color and their needs and struggles, which are often more complex.
I’ve seen feminists straight up act as if any criticism of Kristen Stewart is just misogyny, even when I had concrete evidence pointing to her fanbase, her visibility, and how no one really knew who the other guy was, as well as her abominable acting. And yet, no one is allowed to criticize or complain about this movement, apparently. I’ve also seen a lot of modern day feminists bash Muslim women. I’ve met some pround muslim women, who choose to wear their wrappings, and who take pride in who they are, but apparently, that’s because they’re all brainwashed and enslaved.
I might pour gas on the burning building Dunham is in.
I think she is a whiny gasbag.
I cringe when my DIL comes over so she can watch “Girls.”
Please don’t use the word feminists like it’s a dirty word or slur.
If you do it’s obvious you aren’t one.
Yet don’t you favor equality? You should.
Especially considering the tenor of your posts.
And the only people I’ve run into defending Kristen Stewart are her rabid fans, not a gang of feminists. Sorry.
Or maybe I’ve run into a gang of Swifty fans.
The word non-feminist should become as much of a slur as the word “feminist” seems to have become.
Just some more food for thought…
Feminism not being open to black women is such bullsh!t and an insult to all of us feminists. You just want or need another level of victimhood.
FYI:I grew up in non western countries where all the women identified as feminists and it astounds me when I read bullsh!t like this. Stop equating cultural ignorance as prescribed by western culture as a bar to feminism. It just shows you don’t understand what culture is. it’s not the same thing as feminism. And those women would be appalled to read such ignorance applied to them.
from what I just posted:
“Why is it that feminists still scramble to fill out the spot for the respected,well-known woman-of-color speaker that will bring in a crowd? Why is it that there is only a small percentage of books and articles written by women of color in the growing lists of feminist publications? Why is it that I or any of the few women of color who are involved in feminist work could write lists of all theexperiences that make us invisible, misunderstood, homogenized, and victim-ized while dealing with white feminists—lists that are eerily similar to the list Lorde provides in her 1981 essay “The Uses of Anger: Women Responding to Racism”? Why is it that there is still so much anger on the part of women of color and so much guilt and so much ignorance on the part of white feminists who are supposed to have knowledge of them and who are supposed to haveloving perception toward them?”
Maybe it isn’t bs and the comment is merited.
@Asiyah: I stand by my statement. BULLSH!T.
I have lived in enough countries around the world to see and feel feminism working. I have seen black/ethnic women rise to positions of power worldwide in every field imaginable because they refused or didn’t give a thought to their gender. Or they aren’t making a fuss about it, just getting on with it. Just because they aren’t writing or lecturing about it, doesn’t mean it’s not happening.
All these ‘WOC’ (a term I hate BTW) feminist essays are just looking for another level of victimhood. If a study isn’t available to validate an opposing view then their view must be true since some women have taken the trouble to write about it.
And most annoying of all is that many of the examples they use in their studies are actually other ‘isms’ eg the examples sited by @crystal are clearly racist rather than feminist. We could argue whether she meant to call all of us racists, but that is infact what she’s done.
By the way you described it, in Ghana you were mainstream then, Crystal.
Or did the Western discourse have such an influence there that you did not see that as mainstream?
(Not an attack, am curious).
And @Lak, I do think woc have a double struggle, or maybe even triple struggle.
They are discrimated against for being women, for being not-white and perhaps also within their own community for some reasons.
The complaint I’ve seen most from WoC is that they feel shoved to the side and not listened to by white feminists. Their issues are more complex and interwoven with different issues.
I do think Crystal sees racists when they aren’t there (like here on this website, where the great majority seem to be equal opportunity bitches), but that might be because she has encountered so many before.
The problem I have with a lot of feminists on this issue, and with modern social justice movements in particular, is that the racism is implicit. There’s a negative undercurrent in how they approach ‘helping’ WOC like myself, that implies that we are victims and that they know what’s best for us, and preach how we should feel about a subject. I’m not saying white people can’t have say in racial issues of course, but I don’t see much difference between the racist that thinks WOC and minorities can’t do things because they’re too ignorant and need special help, and racists that believes WOC and minorities can’t think for themselves because they’re victims who need ‘special help’ to save them. Personally, I find things like AA insulting nowadays, because it holds POC to a lower standard than white people, while implicitly stating that white folks can handle the harder work while POC can’t, and that lessens the drive to succeed when they only have to half-ass everything.
I’ve seen woc say that white women don’t listen to them. I’ve also seen that white women should not talk for black women. While I’ve also seen that white women should not expect woc to educate us.
These are all valid points, but it also makes it like walking a tightrope sometimes. If you show you listen to woc by talking about issues that affect them specifically, you can be proclaimed ignorant or arrogant, but if we don’t say anything it’s like we don’t listen or care. And if we ask if we’re doing all right, we get told we shouldn’t expect woc to educate us.
Imo, we should still try though, listen more than we talk. WoC have more issues than we do in most countries. We can’t expect them to join us in our struggles, but not care when they deal with issues that we have not.
Still we should also call out people accusing us of racism when it’s not the case. I’ve seen it on this website before whenever Beyonce of Chris Brown get flak and people get accused of racism. Before Crystal said we praise Lena Dunham, because she’s white, while articles about her here will immediately show that that’s not true.
@LAK. If you say so. You seem to know more than I do.
In the states and in academia/intellectually, the face of feminism has been too often white (or a certain type of white). When I was coming up, women of color were always a third rail of discussion. There might be one who was okay to include. (Meaning that she was wasn’t too rough around the edges or too working class or too black or too Latina. Asian women weren’t included in that or even Native Americans). For example, when early historical discussions occur about the women’s movement in America, they always include Senecca Falls. As a counterweight, someone/professor may throw in Sojourner Truth (Aint I a Women). It could be that historically, in the states, the two momemnts (Black/African American American Civil Rights and the Women’s Movement) have been pitted against each other for a grasp on American consciousness, attention, and decency. Historically, there had/has been very little overlap. So, I get the remarks made earlier about women of color.
Some woman of color (and even poor white women, particularly poor immigrant women) tell a different story about feminism. Their consciousness didn’t have to be raised. There was no learning curve there. They were probably born kicking *ss and taking names later. Their stories probably aren’t folded into the feminist story enough. I don’t know. I just am. Doing what I do. The womanist, the feminist, and the second wave feminist will probably need to chime in on that.
However, I will say this: a co-worker who is in a traditional marriage, with four kids, and married to what most people would consider an A-hole called be a feminist one day. Believe me, it was an insult. I told her that anytime she has to get out of her bed to come to work for pay (because she cannot afford to stay at home and admittedly has no desire to be under your husband’s very oppresive thumb), then you too-by default–are a feminist.
By the way, who really believes that Beyonce knows enough about feminism to have a real opinion? I don’t. I could be wrong. I don’t really listen to her music.
That’s my two cents.
Agitation – I agree with what you are saying because you understand cultural imperialism better than @Crystal.
@Flan – The issues that black/Ethnic women have are cultural/religious mixed in with a good dose of racism. People like @Crystal and ‘WOC’ can’t see the dividing line and so equate one for the other as if it is the same thing. Feminism gives women the right to be human beings. That has no ‘ism’ attached to it even though people insist on looking at it via the prism of whatever ‘ism’ makes up their perjudices.
I say this,again, as someone who has lived in both black and white countries. Feminism is alive and well and working in all these countries even as all those ‘isms’ are present. Too bad the ‘woc’ and @Crystal can’t see it.
@Asiyah – i don’t claim to know more than you do. My life experience due to the travel opened my eyes to this. Many of the ‘WOC’ essays seem to be based on studies and the number of lecturers etc whilst discounting the real life examples of women doing their feminist thing because if there is no one to oppose their view especially from the non-western countries, then it must be true.
@Dena – Your 2nd paragraph ie ‘i am and i do what i do’ is exactly what i grew up with and saw around the world. That’s why i am flummoxed by all this intellectual ‘black/ethnic women can’t be feminist’.
several books on the subject are clearly overdue.
LAK, i have no problem with feminism but there are strands of ‘feminism’ that kind of grates on my nerves. For one, FEMEN has been embracing Arab women (who identify as feminists) because they go topless and say they are atheists and whatever. Which I personally have no problem with, but in the same breath, they sprout the most misogynic, uneducated BS I’ve ever heard in my life. One example, the Egyptian blogger Al-Mahdy who went topless, in the same interview has said that ‘she never uses birth control pills [god forbid!] because they are abortion pills! and abortion is murder!’. Lord knows if she had any ounce of intelligence, she could have done a quick 5 min search on google and found out how birth control pills work.
But yes, apparently my value is linked to how naked I can get but I’m allowed to sprout the most ridiculous uneducated and misogynic statements all I want. As long as I’m naked and say I hate Islam.
Anyway that’s me off on a tangent sort of. I identify myself as a feminist but there are problems, as there are with every social movement in the world.
Feminism definitely hasn’t always been open to the concerns or contributions of black women (or really, anyone besides the straight middle-class white women who have been its mainstream face), although I think that’s getting better. But I don’t get the impression that that’s what Beyonce’s concerned about; I think she’s more worried about being seen as a “man-hater.”
This, I can agree with. I doubt Beyonce was referring to that at all.
THIS. If she was making a statement ala Kerry Washington about how mainstream feminism tends to turn a blind eye to WOC, queer women, transwomen, and poor women, I’d be applauding her big time. This, however, is suuuper Taylor Swifty.
I also agree it’s getting better, but I tend to surround myself with media and people who are interested in intersectional feminism.
@Lyn – I should really read all the posts before posting, cause you said exactly what I was thinking.
I’m really loving the conversations here today (minus the disrespect sprinkled in here and there). It’s great to hear all the passion for women’s rights, feminism, commentary on patriarchy, all the different points of view, even if I don’t always agree!
Wonderful discussion ladies. I love when these types of topics come out because they open a place for different points of view and even if you know about the subject one can learn so much!
I think that B is just a self-centred and selfish person who has taken advantage of the benefits that feminism has fought for … she is hardly a feminist because I don’t think she gives a cr*p about anyone but herself, and certainly not other women.
A few years ago, she would not even have said that. Feminism is getting stronger now (partly in response to the crazy attacks on women in 2012) and therefore it’s harder to say “I’m not a feminist” as celebrities tended to do before. They get backlash for that now too, so they try to find middle ground.
It’s not perfect, but a definite improvement over when they all giggled: “A feminist? Not me.”
Did any of you even read the quotes? She calls herself a modern-day feminist and it’s still not enough ? Lord.
Calling yourself a feminist these days IS extreme because it’s seen as a dirty word by so many young girls. It’s a damn shame but it’s the truth.
Katy Perry and Tswift say they aren’t feminists and they get dragged. Beyonce calls herself a feminist and it’s still not enough ? I’m so confused right now.
It is less and less though. A few years ago nobody called herself a feminist, but it’s a little more common now.
You’re trying so hard to make this into a racial difference. It’s more of a ‘Bey is rather weak-minded’ thing. Along with the other two wonders you mentioned.
The problem with what she said is that she still equated “classic” feminism with being “extreme,” which is something that is not only untrue, but also damaging to the movement. “Classic” feminism is wanting equal social, political, and economical rights. It’s about the freedom to choose. I don’t feel that’s extreme, and the fact that someone whom so many girls look up to said that it is, is unfortunate, to say the least. Especially when she operates under the rights and protections that the women’s movement gave her in the first place. Awful!
This.
People also called feminists extreme when they wanted to vote a century ago.
They got imprisoned, force-fed in cruel ways and abused, but they were supposedly the extremists.
Feminism is basically asking for equal rights and believing you are at the same level as men. Period.
Feminism these days has changed only in the sense that we don’t fight to not be just housewives anymore, but to choose to do whatever makes us happy. Not do what we’re told. That includes being a mom and a housewife if that is what makes you happy. So I don’t see why it should be a dirty word today. Feminism all about respecting a women’s right to choose what to do with her life. If a man has a problem with that, he’s not a man I would want to be with.
If you think it’s a dirty word because being a feminist will make guys not like you anymore, that is very sad. And this is why Katy and Beyonce are scared of the label.
Do they even know what feminism means?
‘Feminism is basically asking for equal rights and believing you are at the same level as men. Period.’
I agree with you and so does Beyonce because she said it twice ‘I do believe in equality’ and ‘I do believe in equality and that we have a way to go and it’s something that’s pushed aside and something that we have been conditioned to accept.’
‘And this is why Katy and Beyonce are scared of the label.’
But how is Beyonce scared of the label when she called herself a ‘modern-day feminist’ ?
‘…but to choose to do whatever makes us happy. Not do what we’re told. That includes being a mom and a housewife if that is what makes you happy.’
I agree with this 100% and I think Beyonce is a good example of this beause even when so called feminists drag her through the mud for naming her tour ‘Mrs. Carter’ she stuck to her guns and did what she wanted. She is not ashamed to say that she is Crazy in Love with her husband and naming her tour after him doesn’t make her any less of a feminist. I mean isn’t that what some of us strive for? We want to be bosses and be successful and taken seriously but we want men that love and support us? Jay is her biggest supporter and she’s never had to give up her career to be Mrs. Carter. It doesn’t always have to be a choice between love and success because you can balance both and be a feminist.
I really don’t see what she said that’s so bad (maybe the ‘extreme’ bit was worded wrong idk)
Everything that comes out her mouth sounds so contrived. I don’t understand why Hollywood allow her and Jay Z to do get involved with certain projects. Jay Z doing the music for great gatsby is just ewww and beyonce covering amy winehouse is not a good look. Amy winehouse whole music catalog shits on anything beyonce has released.
Horrible photoshoot. She’s so beautiful and she looks amazing with curly hair. They could’ve done better.
i am so sick of people thinking feminism is extreme or a dirty word or something to be feared.
feminism just means: equality. it doesn’t mean you are a man-hater or a mean girl, it just means equality for all.
if equality is extremism, we are all up a creek without a paddle.
how is this still an issue in 2013?
shakesfist, flips metaphorical table.
“feminism just means: equality. it doesn’t mean you are a man-hater or a mean girl, it just means equality for all”
Bingo. Thank you.
I don’t see anything wrong with her naming her tour ‘Mrs Carter’ at all. But the context in which she says it here implies a rush to distance herself from feminism, which is her choice if she wants to. But again, the implication is, ‘I’m happily married, etc so I’m not too feminist’. THAT is what gets my goat.
Your point times a million. The implication she seems to be making is that a woman no longer needs to be a feminist once she gets married, which couldn’t be farther from the truth!
To play devil’s advocate I kind of see what she’s saying. To you and me, feminism just means equality and equal rights and freedoms. But I took an introduction to feminism class last year and I actively follow some feminist blogs/tumblrs and some of the things I see are way beyond that.
Like the people who say you can’t be a feminist and believe in capitalism because its inherently patriarchal – you have to embrace communism. Or fat acceptance means you have to accept HAES – health at every size. As in, you have to accept that a 350 person can be healthy or you’re a body shamer.
Basically, because there are so many definitions of feminism, its hard to say I am or I am not since it has so many definitions. And some of those are extreme definitions.
Yeah, but that’s true of everything. Like, you can be a Christian without protesting at soldiers’ funerals on the weekends, it’s just since being a Christian is more mainstream people aren’t constantly trying to derail the conversations they’re having by bringing up the Westboro Baptist Church.
Feminism equal rights. It has become a kaleidoscope depending on social/religious/cultural mores and geological location of where ever it is being applied. Further, some countries applied it earlier than others so it means something different depending on the stage it is at, but at it’s most basic = equal rights. eg ask a feminist in England vs one in Pakistan and you’ll have a different answer because of all those things but at base, they are talking about the same things.
With regards the feminist blogs you were reading, let me give you an analogy. The existence of Al Qaida doesn’t make all Muslims extremists nor does the different strains of islam negate the faith of all the muslims who don’t believe in opposing strains.
I definitely see your point. You’re saying that people with extreme views don’t define a whole movement. But what I’ve read seems to indicate that a lot of people reject you as a feminist if you don’t follow a subscribed set of beliefs.
So like yes, there a normal mainstream Muslims and then there are those who have very extreme views like the Taliban or the Westboro Baptists. But at least they have a common point (i.e. the Koran or the Bible)to organize themselves as a movement. The term feminist is such a fluid, loose label that Beyonce is being careful not to misrepresent herself – she has views that align with some feminists but not others.
I can’t believe you guys made me defend Beyonce she’s all sorts of awful!! Haha.
well i wouldn’t expect a woman who has to wear more fake hair than she does clothing to feel attractive or “powerful” to label herself as a feminist.
I don’t really mind the fake hair as much as the photoshopping of magazines.
That’s saying that even with artificial stuff that actually exists, women are not good enough to be on the cover of a magazine. It’s dangerous, and something all celebrities and women are victim off.
I get what she’s saying when she’s calling herself a modern-day feminist. She’s distancing herself the crazy-extrimist one’s who are unfortunately the most vocal ones most of the time. She says it herself, and I agree for with her, in that it’s about equality. If femimism demands, and unfortunately it often does, to define what kind of woman you are, I don’t want to be a feminist. Why can’t you work to have it all, a career, a husband and a family? Men don’t have to define what kind of men they are. Doesn’t sound very equal to me.
To me, feminism is about having a choice. Choosing to be a stay-at-home Mum if you wish, choosing to be a childless career woman, choosing to go for it all. All these choices and everything in between are okay and rights and it’s a personal decision.
Thank you. It’s like the people jumping all over her for saying that feminism can be extreme have never ventured very far in the Internet. Feminism can be very fucking extreme. I’ve seen people brag about being misandrists, openly calling to kill all males as feminists. I’ve seen people bash Victoria Secret Model’s for being ‘victims’ of ‘the patriarchy’, then turn around and bitch at somebody for supposedly slut shaming someone. And the fact that so many people are jumping down Beyonce’s throat simply for saying what she said, kind of leads credence to her statement. Are we not allowed to criticize the movement now? Are people not allowed to point out the things that they don’t like about it? How come every time a woman says she doesn’t associate with feminism, she’s labeled as an idiot, brainwashed, or coerced by men into thinking this way? Is it impossible for a woman to genuinely not like the movement for her own reasons? Why, as a woman, should I be required or pressured by other women to associate with feminism? Isn’t it my choice to be or not be? Why am I looked down at for that? And, by the way, feminism isn’t the only movement in the world that calls for gender equality–egalitarianism and humanism anyone? In fact, I’d say the modern-day incarnation of feminism isn’t even about equality anymore, but trying to prove how superior women are to men, while still maintaining that women are victims. There are plenty that will say, “Oh, well Not All Feminists Are Like That”, which is, of course, true. But, when there are legit laws being passed(like how the male birth control pill was blocked–by feminists) and when people are being attacked just for being a part of the other side, then there needs to be some fucking introspection and re-evaluating, instead of sweeping under the rug of the crazies. And this isn’t a recent thing either–ask Erin Prizzey, the founder of Women’s Abuse Shelters, what happened when she figured out that domestic abuse happens on both sides and pointed out that men could be beaten too.
And I don’t even like Beyonce.
I think any idea or ideology has its fair share of extremists. Feminism is no exception.
Just look at how some interpret books like Twilight. Just here in this site, to name one example, posters assume that because Bella was in love and chose to be with Edward, get married and have a child, then that must mean Stephenie Mayer can’t be a feminist. If people took the time to read the book, they would find that all of that was Bella’s choice but because it does not go with the predetermined vision of feminism -i.e. Working and going for a man is degrading no matter the surrounding circumstances- than she’s a brainless character that set back the movement. I thought feminism was about the right women have to choose whatever in life they want regardless of if it is staying at home or getting a job.
When the extremists of feminism manage to do the damage that religion, conservative politicians, partiarchy and rape culture are doing then I would say you have a valid argument. Until then you are just trying to discredit a whole movement because you don’t like a few aspects despite the fact that it is obviously still desperately needed.
Where are all these extreme feminists threatening stay-at-home moms??? It’s a myth.
So because you haven’t personally experienced it, it must not exist right? Right.
no it’s not. In the mid-ninties and after my mother got a hell of a lot of flack for being a working Mom and us spending a lot of time with our grandparents. That’s not very long ago. I can count on one hand the mother’s of my classmates who were working. Because they were “proper” Mum’s. School’s expect at least one parent mostly at home (for example for bake-sells and such) but that’s off topic.
Its not a myth that working Mums are often critized (not saying that stay-at-home Mum’s aren’t critized as well)
Lovely was 3 years ago when I moved abroad after High School, a woman from our small town saying “well no wonder the kid is trapsing around the world, with both parents working she’s got no sense of home”
This.
I see far more people, like Beyonce, mention them, than we ever hear from them.
Random guys say a lot more extremist stuff all over the internet about women than supposed extreme feminist women say about men. But we only hear people denouncing the second group, over and over again.
In my experience Lyn, no it has not been a myth. I was a teacher and decided to stay at home to counter the astronomical costs of daycare. Also, if I took my daughter out of child care in the summer her spot was not going to be held. I run an etsy shop to supplement our income and stay at home with my daughter. I have been told that I am setting back the women’s movement, that I must be uneducated, that I am a leech and that I am lazy. I consider myself a feminist and so do all the women who said those things about me and my other stay at home mom friends. It is very disheartening and it does frustrate me to hear it called a myth. I had a very opposite experience from LoL, in the late 80s/early 90s almost all of my friend’s and classmate’s mothers worked and it was very rare for one to be a stay at home mom. I had never planned to stay home and almost none of my other stay at home mom friends did either but it just ended up working out that way for us. It doesn’t mean that we wasted our education or that we aren’t intelligent and don’t aspire to do great things.
I agree. Here’s another example:
Traditionally the religious right’s message to women with regards to sexuality has been this: Don’t have sex, don’t be immodest in your dress. Otherwise you are a whore lacking morals and self-respect, because a woman’s worth as a person stems primarily from her ‘purity’. This includes actresses and pop stars who play any kind of sexual role in a movie, music video, or song. Oh yeah, and by not conforming to these rules you’re ‘asking for it’.
Then there are some feminists who say: You can have all the sex you want, but DO NOT be immodest in your dress. This includes actresses, pop stars, and models in movies and music videos. If you do this, you are destroying feminism, you’re an exploited victim of the patriarchy, you’re a bimbo, you’re only doing it to please some guy, and you deserve to be labeled a slut (and we will appropriate such misogynist language to describe you). Meanwhile, when males pose in nothing but low-slung bottoms, grab and shake their crotches, and take on sexualized roles int the media, we remain silent and nonjudgmental. And oh yeah, if you want to be a feminist you can’t act on even one insecurity about your physical appearance.
I see both messages as narrow-minded, controlling, infantilizing, and sexually repressive. Not to mention prudish. Sorry, but I’m not buying the whole woman+ nude, semi-nude, or in something revealing automatically= oppressed and degraded argument. That’s tantamount to saying that sexuality and the female body are inherently oppressive and degrading. I think sexuality and the human form are natural, beautiful, and sexy in and of themselves, whether male or female, and it’s fun to experment with whatever look currently appeals to you. I choose this message: The if’s and when’s of the decision to have sex are to be left to the individuals choosing. Whatever choice you make, do it because it’s really what you want and not because you think it will make you more popular with your peers, to be popular with the guys (or one guy),or because you want to please your strict mommy and daddy. When it comes to clothing, unless you’re headed to a funeral or the workplace, boldly exercise your right to wear whatever you please, but do it because it’s really what YOU want. Personally, my own closet is filled with both modest, demure clothing and sexy, revealing clothing, and I’m not ashamed of either.Don’t shame the virgin, the person who has only had sex with one or two people, the one who tries friends with benefits, the one who tries a one-night stand, the one who has had a threesome, or the one who has had 10 sex partners. Don’t shame or vilify other women for their physical appearance choices, whether she chooses the hijab, the tuxedo, the hotpants, the cropped top, or the jeans and t-shirt. Anyone who says that being a feminist requires some type of lifelong dress code; that you can’t do as you please with your physical appearance and still stand up for equal rights and fight against things like a society’s condoning of rape, body-shaming, oppression of people who are gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender, or any other similar issue is just a hater who can’t see past their own sexual phobias. How is a woman liberated if she can’t be free in those areas? In our society, a man generally only comes under fire for his sexuality if he’s a rapist, a pedophile, if he commits bestality, if he has sex in an open area, or if he flashes his privates. In our private lives we generally only shame men if they cheat on us (or someone we love), if they pretend to love us when they really only want sex, and a little bit if they knowingly cheat with somebody else’s spouse. But that’s all. Women should be treated the exact same way. That’s sexual equality.
I will respect feminism when they start respecting all womens’ choices, including those who wish to stay home with their children.
Very much, this. I could never be a stay-at-home mom(I’m a klutz around the house, have no clue what to do with children) but I respect anyone who can manage that lifestyle.
That is what feminism does. You should read more about the movement today and not get caught up on what it used to be in the 60’s. That was 50 years ago. Get with the program.
The movement today asks for equal pay, equal opportunities in the work place, harsher punishments for sex offenders, calling out and ending rape culture and victim blaming, the right to terminate unwanted pregnancies, get the government out of personal choices like taking birth control, be treated like human beings, etc. This is not worthy of your respect?
Feminism today ain’t what it used to be by a longshot. I made a longer post about this above, but the one thing I’ll comment on is the fact that the only ‘rape culture’ I think we have(going by the definition that society belittles rape victims) is that of male rape victims. And that’s a serious problem, that I don’t think is adequately addressed by the modern feminist movement–aside from the fact that it’s because women are treated poorly, which I disagree with. Also, the wage-gap is a myth, which is why I suggest you look up the statistics and why exactly it appears that women have a lower income.
Trudie,
It’s true that there’s 15 strands of feminism out there, and one would balk at those women who prefer to stay at home. But that is only one current; the majority of feminists support all choices women make.
And the idea of placing value on the work women perform in the household came actually from a feminist perspective. Hard, unpaid, often unrecognized, and vital for the family work. No proper feminist is going to devalue that.
Yes, this is one thing I’ve seen a lot of feminist discourse about lately. Emphasising how important the work is housewives do, but don’t get credit for because it isn’t paid.
Agitation, That’s just not true, the recent incarnation of the violence against women act included violence against LGBT people. Men and women. It wasn’t feminists fighting to keep that that from being passed!
When I was pregnant with my daughter, I realized that it would be easier to stay at home with her. I was teaching and after subtracting child care from my paycheck I wasn’t left with much. My husband and I made a decision that I would stay at home with the kids until they were in school and then further my education while going back to work. It’s been a very rewarding experience but I will tell you I have personally encountered women who believe stay at home moms set back feminism. That I am part of the problem and also lots of people assume that I must be uneducated. It is very frustrating. I am a feminist but it is disheartening to be put down like that.
The fact that you can voice an opinion here makes you a feminist.
Unless you have permission from your lord and master who is standing over you making sure you are typing out these words before sending you back to where ever he deems fit for you.
Trudie,
Feminism has always been about staying home or going out and having a career. That was the point. That you had a CHOICE. I just don’t know where this other crap from. Google Betty Friedan or Gloria Steinem and you’ll see neither one wanted women out in careers at the expense of their children.
At least she used the word feminist like it wasn’t a dirty word.
I’ll give her that.
i get her and i myself am searching for an appropiate term.
femnism is obviously not for equality. then the name would be equalism or something like that.
look at most western countries where girls now completly outperform boys due to extensive help while the boys get left out and punished. thats not equality. in most countries the vast majority of homeless people are men.
all those hating conservative guys on tv couldnt drag feminism down as much as all those extremist feminists have. no porn, “bdsm is rape and always anti women”, bashing natalie portman when she said her child is her most important role at the oscars, trying to paint every guy that gets into child care and kindergarden as a possible rapist or child molester etc.
^^This. The very fact that these people aren’t even considering the idea that these things are what turn so many people off about feminism–not ‘the patriarchy’, not being ‘brainwashed’, not ‘trying to fit into society’s standards’, not ‘being scared of men’ not ‘wanting men to like them’ not any of the BS that is recycled towards people that have a differing opinion on this movement, is one of the reasons I’m so disillusioned with this movement in the first place.
Perhaps there should not be such an emphasis on sports as a way to get through education. It’s ridiculous that guys get scholarships for universities based on their ability to play sports.
If them winning games would not get valued as much as it did, they would be stimulated more to actually study. Boys who are actually creative or smart are often pressured socially (and institutionally, since a lot of schools encourage this) to do sports against their inclination. And if they don’t succeed, they get bullied or become ‘losers’.
Sports are great, but not as something that is deemed more important than learning. Unless they are so good that they can get a professional career, but that doesn’t fly for the majority of players, no matter how much of a ‘star’ they are in their own highschool.
Here’s my thoughts on “equalism.” Why the hell can’t men identify with a movement just because it starts with the prefix “fem?” Women identify with male things all the time. Humans are known as “mankind.” The word “man” is even in the word “woman.” It’s not until we have a female-centric term that people think it’s exclusive. That’s why I love the term feminism. The fact that men recoil at the idea of having anything “femme” attached to them is exactly why we need Feminism in the first place.
Good points. Give us all something to think about.
This refusal to accept a term that was coined to express the rights of women is always baffling. Why are people so afraid of it? or does it speak a truth they can’t accept? That women are human beings who should have the same rights as men.
For 1900 yrs, women were thought to be stupid at best or without brains at worst. They had no say whatsoever in their social/economic lives, they had no say over their bodies. They had the legal standing of animals which was none at all. Society was constructed to keep women down.
The fact that women are doing so well in just 100yrs is a testament to what we are capable of. At the end of the day, all this hand-wringing about how much women are outstripping men is fear of our capabilities. The same fear that had us held down for 1900yrs.
I see women outstripping men as a crest that will eventually plateau. EG Women working was initially seen as women talking away men’s jobs, but with time, women working has become the norm so it isn’t a cause for concern the way it used to be.
Slow clap . . . .
+2
Really enjoying the discussions taking place. It’s nice to get different perspectives on such an important issue. Opposing viewpoints or not – the discussion is what’s important.
I’m reluctant to parse Beyonce’s comments on feminism as I don’t think she’s very bright but my antipathy for her aside and though I think she did not begin by expressing herself very well, I see no problem with her comments on the whole. At least not in this interview.
My husband’s a feminist. Wouldn’t have married him otherwise.
Ya know what else can be “extreme”? Sexism. This woman is a complete dolt who wouldn’t know a feminist cause if it bit her on the ass.
I was so ragey when she said in an article some time ago that the word ‘Feminism’ should be replaced with ‘bootylicious’
The ONLY thing i will commend Beyonce for is her all-female band and all-female backup dancers. Other than that, i find her insufferable.
Oh Beyonce, just please shut up. Everytime she opens her mouth she just confirms how out of touch she is. Feminism also conveys a sense of dignity, of which she doesn’t have. And Beyonce, we’re tired of seeing you in your panties.
damn Damn DAMN! I love to watch Beyonce perform, but every time she opens her mouth I cringe. She is making it harder and harder to be a fan.
I am a black woman, and a feminist. all day. But don’t get it twisted, the feminist movement has not and does not embrace diversity. I complain about it all the time, and I hope things will get better, and I would never abandon the movement because they have areas that need improvement.
@LAK – your attitude is actually part of the problem. If women of color felt so unwelcome that they felt the need to branch out and form a movement that they felt addressed their needs, refusing to acknowledge that there is a problem and calling them names does not serve the cause. at all.
According to her, our perspective is BS. But no, we’re the condescending, difficult ones.
Well, that’s obviously because we’ve been brainwashed by men and can’t think for ourselves. Apparently, we must accept Feminism in our lives or suffer the fires of…wait…
Nobody said you have to face any fire, Agitation. You just gave another example of making feminist extremism a bigger issue than it actually is.
WTF is completely right. We should not expect to have WoC join us and then not care a hoot for any of the more intricate issues they face. Some of which we may actually have contributed to or at least are ignorant of.
Asiyah, I thought you’re comments were spot on. I didn’t think your comments were BS. After reading both posts, I simply thought that you are LAK are seeing or have seen feminism “at work” from different places and perspectives. I also thought LAK was referring to a sort of “feminism” in action. Hmm . . . you know, it’s like when guys stand around talking about an issue–hemming and hawing–only to look up to see that the woman/women in the room have quietly gotten the job done. A lot of women, particulary woman of color (and particular white women), don’t ask. They just do. And have been doing so without a lot of fan-fair for eons. I am from that mold.
My attitude is the problem???????
According to you, as a black African, i can’t possibly be a feminist?????
I better tell my mother and her female relatives/friends and all those interesting women we met along the way like Wangari Maathai because what they were doing wasn’t feminist at all.
WTF, all I can say to our post is WTF.
Before a poptart waxes and wanes on if they’re a feminist, I wish they would actually read up on feminism, instead of just some generic comment addressing it.
It makes me long for the intelligence of popstar Madonna. Yes, that’s right, Madonna has a high IQ and is extremely intelligent and had a whole interview with Forrest Sawyer on CBS news back in the early ’90s on how she views herself as a feminist and what it means and the feminist backlash on her. At least, she could hold an intelligent conversation about it whether you agreed with her or not.
WORD.
I’m not offended by this, and I say this as a pretty hardcore, proud feminist. There ARE extremists and those who treat trying to be sexy as anti-intellectual. A lot of this can be partially attributed to some of the more extreme members of the “Women’s Liberation” side of the second wave, but it still happens today. Making the distinction of calling herself a “modern-day feminist” is actually surprisingly accurate since that attitude is a bit more old-school and less accepted among many feminists of the third wave. It’s an attitude that has been fought against in recent years among the younger set that I am a part of.
She’s still calling herself a feminist. All she is saying is that there can be extremism and that there is a bullshit attitude that being hot is somehow anti-empowerment that is espoused in the name of feminism. Both of those things are true. But she’s not disowning or denouncing feminism because of that. She might be under the impression that being anti-appearance is a core tenant of feminism, but she’s not ging the route of the stereotypical “Feminists are all anti-pretty, crazy man-hating extremists.”
The fact is, the feminist movement, like pretty much every sociological movement, has served up some crazy and extremism. Acknowledging that, in my opinion, isn’t anti-feminist.
The Mrs. Carter thing annoyed me a little. Not that she’s calling herself that (though I am generally not a fan of taking your husband’s name, that’s just a personal thing and I don’t judge her for it). It’s that she says it’s because she is calling herself that because she “loves her husband.” Of course she does. She married him. This isn’t the age or country of arranged marriages. Whether it’s intentional or not, I feel like mentioning “I love my husband” as a reason for taking his name sort of implies that women who don’t somehow love their husbands less. I’m sure that’s not what she meant, but it does bug me because I hear that a lot.
Of course, technically, she is Beyonce Knowles-Carter, so I think that the “Mrs Carter” thing is at least a little bit tongue-in-cheek. I never really had a problem with the name of the tour because I figured she’s joking a bit. I think it also might have to do with having her daughter, whose name is Carter. There’s a bit of me that thinks part of the “Mrs Carter” thing has to do with her staking claim as to whose daughter Blue Ivy is. Especially considering the surrogate rumors. Also, she’s been married to Jay-Z since 2008, and this is the first time she’s called herself “Mrs Carter” in such a public fashion. The fact that she would choose to call herself that in her first tour since having her baby is telling to me.
I like Beyonce, and I think she is very empowered and feminist. Of course, my view is a little biased since I found out what feminist meant because of her (I was 8/9 when “Independent Women” came out. My Mom called it a feminist song and I asked what it meant. Been a proud feminist ever since.)
thank you. you said it much more eloquently than I did.
@WendyNerd, totally agree.
ya know what i love about ‘The Legendary Divas’?
~Barbara
~Aretha
~Diana
~Cher
~Tina
you don’t know about their personal stances and all they do is ENTERTAIN.
the mind-numbing pontificating (thanx Goopy!) is ultra dull.
no. one. cares.
seriously. 🙁
Agreed. I’m against the idea that a woman can’t be a feminist if she looks, dresses, etc. in a certain way. How can a woman truly be free or liberated if she can’t even be allowed to make such basic individual decisions? You police the wardrobe, dance moves, photos, and movie roles/scenes of a CHILD, not a grown woman.
I can’t stand BeYonCe. All she does is yak, yak, yak.
Am I way off in saying a lot of us are disappointed that Beyonce doesn’t fully embrace the term feminist?
I would have really liked Beyonce, as a famous female singer, if she sincerely identifies with the feminist movement to say..YES I AM A FEMINIST! THIS IS WHAT A FEMINIST LOOKS LIKE!!
Instead of her wishy washy response.
Lol feminist. I am not even geting into this one. What a joke
Lol. What a joke.
I’m waiting for the day when the statement, “I’m a feminist” comes without a qualifier.
Thank you!
+1
Yes!
Wow, that was really articulate and well said Beyonce.
God, this chick is so bland.
She doesn’t stand for anything.
With any social, political or cultural movement there will be extremes. And unfortunately, I believe that some of the extremism of feminism has permeated what feminism is.
For example: feminists who lambaste her for taking her husband’s last name? Why the hell would she even have to defend herself if she believes in that tradition and if it was her choice to do so???
ETA: Was going to type out a scribe, but I see @WendyNerd said it already and said it very well 😛
Meonyce. Who cares? I mean, really, this is woman who basically went from being daddy’s girl to JayZ’s wife–and it has totally worked for her. Get back to us after the divorce,Bey.
Am I the only one sick and tired of Vogue’s celebrity covers?
Bring the models back!
This is supposed to be high fashion, right?
If I want to look at overexposed celebrities, I’ll just flip through People at the Dentist’s office.
What’s with beyonce and the cut off tops these days?
She’s just not really the right person to talk about this.I won’t accept any advice on feminism from somebody who clearly doesn’t have an idea about whT IS real life and being a woman with real problems .These popstars just want the right to be sexy, hey…
1 of every 3 women on the planet has been beaten or sexually assualted. Yea, feminism is so extreme, Beyonce.