Jerry Seinfeld appeared on ESPN’s The Herd with Colin Cowherd to promote the sixth season of his web series, Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee. I haven’t watched much of the series because Seinfeld isn’t my cup of comedy. The Chris Rock episode was rather illuminating, but I’m partial to the passenger. Seinfeld and Rock are good friends. At some point, they must have spoken together about college comedy tours. Rock previously discussed in an essay how he won’t tour colleges because they’re too sensitive “in their social views and their willingness not to offend anybody.”
This is where I disagree with Rock. Plenty of college students are anything but sensitive. Rock went on to say George Carlin agreed with him, which is odd because Carlin toured colleges until he was 70. Carlin didn’t bend his humor for anyone. But Jerry is super upset that all the political correctness these days is affecting his ability to be gut-bustingly funny:
Does politicial correctness hurt comedy? “Yes it does.”
Stand-up comics stay away from colleges now: “I hear that all the time. I don’t play colleges but I hear a lot of people telling me they’re so PC.”
Kids these days are too sensitive: “Let me give you an example. My wife says to [my 14-year-old daughter], ‘Well, you know, in the next couple of years, I think you’re going to want to be hanging around the city more on the weekends, so you can see boys.’ And you know what my daughter says? She says ‘that’s sexist.’ They just want to use these words. That’s racist. That’s sexist. That’s prejudice.’ They don’t know what the [bleep] they’re talking about.”
[From YouTube]
Well I do agree that the PC crowd can go overboard at times. It can be difficult to gauge an audience, especially because humor is so subjective. But it’s crappy for Jerry to discount his daughter’s feelings on the word “sexism.” Jerry isn’t a woman. He’s not a member of a marginalized class, and I hope he’s not pooh-poohing his daughter’s feelings to her face. It’s not his place to tell someone else how they should feel.
The problem with Jerry’s complaint about PC audiences, ultimately, is that he’s not all that funny. Even on Seinfeld, Jerry was the least amusing member of the ensemble cast. Now he’s pouting because he can’t tell the non-PC jokes that would let him be great. This reminds me of Louis CK’s recent SNL monologue, which was offensive to many because Louis insisted upon being “edgy.” If Jerry thinks it’s so hard to work around PC audiences, maybe he needs to realize his jokes aren’t awesome in the first place.
You can listen to Jerry’s ESPN clip here.
Photos courtesy of WENN
I found Elaine funny( see reminded me of my sister), George and Kramer were good too. But I never found Jerry Seinfeld funny at all. Just something about that guy I found too smug.
Yup, and he’s aging into douchebaggery. He’s just one of those guys who becomes an old guy immediately after he was a young guy.
And no, I will not get off his lawn.
He was a grandpa when he was a young guy, too. He’s also the most successful unfunny comedian we have. Remember how embarrassing his standup bits were on his show? They got rid of those fairly quickly.
Jerry’s too rich not to be getting conservative and cranky as he ages.
It happens to poor aging men sometimes too.
What he doesn’t get is that ALL kids are not like HIS kids. He doesn’t give a thought to kids who are gay and bullied, or black or Hispanic, and experience racism.
@joan but he’s a Jew, so I guess he does personally know how anti-Semitism feels like.
I love Seinfeld, but never found Jerry funny, neither his standup, nor his interviews. Larry David on the other hand, is always funny.
Larry David is funny. Jerry’s bread and butter was mundane every day life observations. It’s not as if he was EVER on the forefront of edgy, deeply thoughtful societal contemplations. He doesn’t belong in the same league with Carlin.
I agree, Kiddo. When I read that, I thought “when was Seinfeld ever edgy?” I liked his show, but I’ve never liked him as a person.
I don’t care for Jerry. I didn’t care for his show either. I don’t know what he’s on about. He’s made a ton of money. He needs to hang it up, or something.
The character Jerry wasn’t the funniest (for me that title goes to George) but Seinfeld and Larry David wrote the show. By virtue of that, he was funny. His stand up was also very funny.
And I do agree with him (and Chris Rock) to an extent. There’s a prevalent “I’m offended” stance lately. Sometimes people don’t even know what to be offended about, they’re just offended for the heck of it. Sometimes it’s clear no offense was intended but still a barrage of attacks occur? “I’m going to make sure everyone knows I’m offended and this person who caused offense learns his lesson”. It’s hilarious.
I don’t particularly care for Jerry post-sitcom but I do see where he’s coming from.
I never thought his stand up was funny, but I do agree that he is funny because he wrote Seinfield. I also agree that being PC has changed comedy. Shows like ‘All in the Family’ and ‘the Jeffersons’ would never be made today. It seems like only cartoon can handle satire.
I support the idea of political correctness. I think it’s a good thing if as a society, we become more empathetic and understanding towards one another.
That being said, I think there’s a danger that comes with being told that certain words/ideas/language are across-the-board offensive. I think it has the potential to create a culture of lazy people who don’t take the time to truly think about what/why/how something is offensive or hurtful. I also think that context matters, who is saying that offensive word(s) matters, and the implications of that word(s) matters. I think the focus should always be on rational, open-minded thinking, understanding, and thoughtfulness over the blanket approach of condemning a word.
The other aspect to this issue is that what offends a person is wholly subjective. What offends you might not offend me and vice versa. So should language that offends you be off-limits or should language that offends me be off-limits or should both be off-limits?
I can see how as an artist— a comedian or a song-writer, a painter, etc you would start to feel a bit restricted. I guess Bedhead had it right when she said that the best bet is to probably not give a f*ck. Just do what you do and be prepared for potential backlash from those who are offended.
Good points Kitten.
+1
I liked Jerry on Seinfeld, but I agree with you and Lahdidahbaby above: ever since the show ended, the more I see him the more I dislike him. Seems very arrogant and a-holish.
I agree. I see it among my friends, who are well intentioned and educated, etc., that there is an inability to distinguish between dumb insensitive or non-PC comments and true hate speech. Jerry is right.
I think the problem people have with political correctness is that like you say above, offense is subjective. But when offense has been caused it seems the immediate response should be for the person who caused offense to start reflecting on how awful, ignorant or uneducated they must be. I believe some people are awful, ignorant or uneducated, but not everyone who offends is this way because like you say, offence is ‘wholly subjective’.
As Stephen Fry once said being offended does not give you any rights. The person who has caused offence is not always the one in the wrong, every situation is different but on occasion it is the outraged that should look within and ask themselves why they want someone vilified for having spoken in terms they would not personally used. You are not physically harmed when you are offended, it doesn’t entitle you to any sympathy. Being offended does not make you morally superior, and any moral superiority you may have if someone is a racist sexist pig can be lost by vilifying them and making personal attacks on their intelligence and upbringing.
Word are powerful and people can be terrible, and sometimes public outcry is needed for change, but political correctness by definition is an excessive approach and we could do with less of it.
What Kitten said – although I have no idea who Jerry Seinfeld even is, let alone whether he is funny or not.
And I’d like to add – for comedy particularly, everyone needs to understand what satire is, and how a satire of racism/sexism/homophobia may use tropes of racism/sexism/homophobia but is in no way racist/sexist/homophobic. Perhaps this is the distinction he is trying to get at, and which he believes people don’t understand, albeit in a rather hamfisted way.
munchkin, great post and I agree completely!
However hidden it might be, I think there is some value in offensive language if it generates a larger, more important conversation.
To me, comedy is truly an art form-it requires a light touch, clever delivery, and a thoughtful messenger. The greatest comedians (like Carlin or Rock) will say something offensive with the intention of making you think. It might be provocative, but it’s provocation with a purpose. Let’s face it, if your comedy revolves around criticizing the socioeconomic culture of American society, it’s almost inevitable that you’ll offend someone at some point. Carlin was a controversial comedian, but he was a brilliant man and that shone through in his comedy. Chris Rock is an intellectual who may have a brash delivery, but the dude makes you think.
Going back to the idea that offense is wholly subjective; then as a society, how do we choose to monitor observational humor? At what point does it start to feel like thought-policing? In a way the outrage and offense does at times feel like an attempt to invalidate one person’s life experiences. Yet if those observations are made solely with the intention of offending or hurting others, then shouldn’t we have the right to call out the offender?
Truthfully, I think these questions most often arise in the face of badly-made art. The most successful artists and the most talented comedians push the boundaries at the risk of offending others because they have a larger and more important message. You don’t find the opportunity to feel offended because you’re too busy laughing at a brilliant joke.
I actually do not find the show funny, either, and no character saves it for me, so, yeah, Seinfeld = unfunny for me in any capacity.
Yes yes 100 times yes if someone is guilty of saying something with the intention of sparking hatred towards a group of people then they deserve shaming and any legal backlash for their comment and intentions.
I am by no means underestimating the dangerous power of hate speech. I live in the UK and have had to listen to a political party called UKIP give hate speech somewhat uncensored while the elections were going on and it was a disgusting display of backwards attitudes covered up in a shoddy costume of ‘pride to be british’. It was absolutely terrifying how quickly some people got swept up in this.
But I see the rise of political correctness as somewhat to blame, for years we have been outraged by tiny things that have no real consequence such as the young girl who was driven off twitter for asking JK Rowling why she made Dumbledore gay, which means that when someone, something, is inherently wrong the outrage can be compared to something so obviously trivial that it belittles the message.
Thank you, thank you, munchkin and Kitten.
Completely agree, Munchkin.
Thank You Kitten, Munchkin Et. Al I’m over these old white dudes being Crying Titty Babies cause their trash ass ” Equal Opportunity Offense “comedy” Routine” doesn’t fly anymore and crap from Al Jolson days/Women Are Bitches AmIRite??Rapey Jokes and whatever lazy derivative, rude stuff they so cherished is no longer acceptable in polite society.
Get Creative, Learn To Punch Up and Dry those White Tears Babies
Very well said, Kitten.
QQ, I fail to see why you are trying to bring race into this. We have two comedians who are making the same claim. The black one quit doing the college circuit because he found the crowd too sensitive to his material so quit rather than getting creative with new material. What does that have to do with old white guys? I further wonder if a commenter would be allowed to make a comment along the lines of “dry your black tears”?
Occasionally kids who are still learning may blurt out something like ‘That’s racist!’ without actually understanding what racism means or understanding what the person is saying, but at least it shows that they care somewhat about these types of issues. As far as what the bigger problem is, I’d rather gladly deal with the 11-year-old who may be a little too quick to call things sexist, racist, or homophobic, than deal with the ignorant/entitled 15-year-old….or 18-year-old…. or 55-year-old who thinks he should be able to say whatever he wants without being questioned, challenged, or criticized because “first amendment”. One is a well-intentioned I don’t know any better problem; the other is an empathy problem.
There have been rare occasions where I’ve thought someone was being too P.C. For example, I think some feminists are a little too P.C. on the “Is gender 100% socialization, or is a tiny bit of it routed in biology” debate, to the point where someone just saying something as simple as “I feel/felt more like a woman” for THEMSELVES causes a problem. People on both sides of the debate can be a little oversensitive- I don’t think there’s anything automatically wrong with use of the terms like vagina, uterus, or woman to talk about issues related to people who can (presumably) biologically bare children for the sake of simplicity.
Sometimes we can be a little to quick to jump on people without either fully understanding what they mean (only to later be like, “Oh. I totally took that the wrong way. I put my foot in my mouth.) or to jump on someone just for not knowing about an issue or being as aware of an issue as we are. Most of us will be guilty of this more than once. But a lot of the times, people aren’t just jumping on people for no reason. And just as people have the right to say something offensive, others also have the right to talk about why it’s offensive. Just expressing that doesn’t always automatically make them too P.C. or oversensitive. And while people may feel it’s wrong to insult someone’s intelligence or upbringing after they say something racist, homophobic, or misogynistic, the truth is that sometimes racism, homophobia, and certain types of misogyny ARE a harmful product of either a defect in another person’s upbringing, or a lack of ability to think for one’s self beyond what their ancestors, parents, religious groups, or other influences have been teaching for centuries.
To be fair, in Seinfeld, Jerry was the “straight man” in that comedy.
Ozmom, that type of comment would NEVER be allowed here. Only anti-white views are allowed.
@sunshine & Ozmom: True dat! A lot of racist comments against white folk are allowed to go unchecked on here.
I agree, both he, and that social climbing, wanna-be ho wife of his, make me ill.
Also, I have heard that Jerry can be quite rude to his fans when he is asked for pictures or autographs. He should be happy anyone even cares enough to ask, he’s a major tool.
I’m not familiar with Seinfeld’s brand of humor but I don’t think ppl are more PC nowadays. I think ppl are finally saying, “hey, that’s kinda offensive and I’m not going to laugh.” Hey Jerry, How about not using extremely derogatory words to describe a group of people/beliefs??!
I understand what Chris Rock is saying.I don’t think sensitive was the right word.Maybe saying people take things to personally these day’s.I was listening to Howard Stern a few week’s ago and a guest(can’t remember who it was) said the same thing,Comedians have alway’s offended people to get a laugh.With comedians these day’s I am sure they are afraid if they say the wrong thing they will get sued.People just need to sit back and have a good laugh.The world is hard enough to be so serious all the time.
I can’t think of one comedian sued for something they said, would you please give an example?
I’ve never heard of a comedian being sued either. When a comedian says something people don’t like, I assume the worst that happens is that people simply don’t laugh (I figure this is what happens on college campuses. Do the college kids throw pies or something?).
I didn’t say any comedian has gotten sued in the past.These days the way people react to things you always have to watch what you say and do.
Well, maybe people aren’t getting sued, but once the news of whatever they said hits social media, then come the obligatory round of apologies, ranging from “I’m sorry if you’re offended” to “I know I need to work on myself”, and in some cases a round of “I’m meeting with so&so head of such&such group that purports to represent all people of whatever subset of the population I offended, so they can give me their blessings that my apology suffices” (such as Tracy Morgan meeting with GLAAD after his rant about what he’d do if he had a gay son).
It’s the same with people who give interviews and a quote gains steam because it seems offensive, then all the backpedaling and “I didn’t mean it that way and I was taken out of context” begin. If people are going to be offensive, or at least use words or talk about scenarios they know have the propensity to be interpreted as such, I think they have to take whatever heat comes with it; either stand their ground against the overly PC nature of so many people these days that what they said had a purpose (a true expression of an opinion, no matter how unpopular, for example), or admit that they’re intentionally sh*t-stirring and let the public make up its mind on how to react (boycott, refuse to support the person, etc.).
Yes I ‘m concerned about what this racist sexist asshat has to say about racism and sexism. *sarcasm*
Anytime you hear “politically correct” just know some bs is coming your way
I know!!
No offence but what does a rich straight white man know about sexism or racism?
A lot of teens experience that all the time even though they’re still young. Look at what happened at the pool party on Texas, they’ve experienced violent racism when they were just trying to have fun with friends in a pool.
As for sexism, look at the strict dress codes girls have to follow in school but most of the time the boys get passes on their offensive shirts.
Well, he is Jewish after all, so there’s that.
I’m withholding comment about the pool party in Texas until additional information surfaces. And it will.
@anon321 Yeah. You do that.
@anon321-What “additional information” could possibly excuse a police officer yanking a 14-year-old girl wearing only a bikini to the ground and then kneeling on her back?
Seriously.
I want you to tell me why/how that would EVER be ok.
In any scenario.
Under ANY circumstances.
I always wait to hear all the details before I point fingers.
“No offense but what does a rich straight white man know about racism or sexism?” I guess that would vary with the individual, wouldn’t it? All “rich, straight white men” aren’t the same.
Are there actual examples of Jerry being racist/sexist, though? Or are you just against what he’s claiming in this interview? I mean, what he said to his daughter about her being interested in boys — could/would he not have said the same to his son about wanting to go into the city on weekends to meet up with girls, and if so then I don’t see how his comment was sexist if it’s something he would’ve said regardless of the sex of the child he was speaking to? I guess I just don’t get the outrage here.
Have you ever noticed that when comedians can’t come up with edgy jokes, they blame it on the audience?
I don’t even understand Seinfeld’s daughter’s response, unless she is gay.
May be she meant “it’s sexist to assume that I only want to go into the city to meet boys as I grow up. May be I want to go to the city for a Broadway show or shopping with girlfriends or walk around Central Park. ”
of course, I don’t know how the whole convo really went down. it’s my only possible explanation.
That’s how I understood her comment.
To be honest, I was surprised her mother suggested she hang out in the city to meet boys. My mother was pretty strict, so I was all “Mothers make suggestions like that??!!”
I don’t think her mother meant any harm, but I don’t think her daughter’s reaction was out of the ordinary either (either for her generation or the generation I am in). In a private context, I think her daughter had a right to shoot back an explanation to her mother as to why she disagreed with her mother’s sentiment, so I don’t really get why Jerry shared that particular anecdote. In private, whatever the daughter said most likely did make sense when she expounded on why she used the word. And in private I think we all talk at random with our mothers the same way her mom was talking at random with her. A public example from pop culture would have illustrated Seinfeld’s point better.
Maybe she’s not interested in boys yet? Is she in an advanced educational program? Most 14 yos are freshmen in high school, not college.
We are talking about Jessica Seinfeld here, after all.
perplexed, I also thought Jessica’s comment was surprising and kinda dumb. Why rush your daughter into meeting boys? Why would she have to meet boys in the city, what’s wrong with their own town? Seems like maybe she was projecting her own experience onto what she thinks her daughter will be up to as a teen. Big mistake…as my kids tell me, “Mom, you’re not me!”
I’m guessing that like most well to do New Yorkers, the Seinfeld’s have a summer home, likely in a remote location. If so, then the convo might have been related to that. Something like “Well, in a couple of years you might not want to spend all summer in the cottage because you’ll want to hang out in the city where there will be more boys .” Total conjecture, of course!
Meanwhile, don’t see how that is sexist, because likely Jessica would have said the same exact thing to a son of the same age! But teenagers are fond of labels, and so I think they are just trying to wrap their own heads around the whole PC thing.
That’s how it comes across to me, too — the daughter is just 14, will object to 99% of what her mother says whether her objection makes sense or not.
And it’s Jessica Seinfeld: maybe she meant, “You’ll be wanting to go into the city and start hanging out with rich boys so you can marry one someday even if you just got married to someone else.”
Or maybe she was just being a regular mom looking ahead to her daughter’s social life changing in a very regular way.
Seinfeld is tone deaf and cranky and probably blindsided like most dads about his little girl growing up.
Agree…as I said below I think Jerry is grumpy and likely because he’s losing his edge.
As for his daughter, instead slamming her he should help teach her the meanings of words. She’s 14 for goodness sake, an age where they’re trying really hard to figure stuff out.
Exactly. Her comment show more a case of ignorance because her parents haven’t taught her what sexism means than being too pc.
Maybe they did teach her what it means?
We don’t know what kind of a conversation happened after she made that comment.
Even if they did teach her what it means, I think it’s just in bad taste to use your 14-year-old daughter as the butt of a joke. She’s at a time when her sense of self is being shaped, as are her worldview and ideas about things like feminism and sexism. How’s she going to feel if she googles old dad and sees that he used her as a punchline? That would make me feel terrible, and it would probably discourage me from wanting to learn about the things I’m still ignorant of. I actually agree with much of what he says, but I think he went about it in a really douchey way. It’s like he’s trying to make a witty observation, but he just comes off like an assh0le. The joke falls flat.
I don’t think saying “they don’t know what that means” about using these words is slamming his daughter. Maybe he did have a discussion with her about it?
@ Kiddo: Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
HAHA.
Hee. I see what you did there, Kiddo.
We went to see Jerry in a comedy show many years ago. It was sometime after his show went off the air. I laughed so much I had a headache. I was stunned by what a really good standup comedian he was.
I’ve watched a lot of Jerry’s stand-up. He’s very good, very funny and I laughed a lot. I think it’s a matter of personal preference as to what appeals to you in comedy. He’s not offensive at all. As for his daughter he’s talking about her reaction, not his. I think Jerry would tell you himself he had kids too late in life!
It’s funny you should say that! I have never found Jerry’s stand up to be funny and especially not edgy…so I don’t even understand why he is talking about the “pc” thing. He was never anything like George Carlin…of course, in my eyes, Carlin was “the best”!!!!!!
Instead of complaining about people being more conscious of the words they and other use, why don’t comics just up their game and try to come up with new material that reflect the changing taste of their audience. God forbid they can’t fall back on the same tired shtick that have been done before and by better comedians/ennes.
I’ve seen Seinfeld twice in concert. Once at the height of his fame with the show and then against last summer. His routine HAS changed because his comedy has always been about his life. Back in the 90’s, his jokes were about being single and dating and living alone, going out with friends. Now, his jokes are mostly about the differences of married life, marrying later in life, having kids, etc. There is nothing offensive in his comedy, IMO.
Goodness yes! We definitely need more “white people do THIS, black people do THAT” kind of comedy delivered by foul-mouthed and utterly unlikable “comedians”! Nothing tired about that schtick, right?
I think Jerry is just grumpy. I found some of his observations back in the day pretty funny, he could be pretty incisive when he wanted to be and didn’t need to rely on anything that might offend.
But I am offended at how he dismissed his daughter. She’s 14! If she using words incorrectly, it’s up to you, her dad, to help educate her. Sheesh.
I agree 1000%- if you feel your kid doesn’t understand something TALK TO THEM- you might learn something, too- shocking. Besides, Jerry’s wife seems like she is VERY high maintenance and self-centered…I would bet that she is pushing her daughter to get a boyfriend so mommy can Instagram all about it. I could go into all look long diatribe about those whine about PC stuff are generally looking for an excuse to be rude and not very funny, but I should probably save it for a day without meetings!
He’s right on that. My son asked my husband why he (my son) tans so easily when my husband doesn’t tan at all. My husband responded, “because you’re half black, you have more melanin in your skin, which gives you more color.” My son goes, “that’s racist!” He had no clue what racist actually meant; he thought it was ANYTHING pertaining to race. (These are not bad problems to have, by the way.)
lol, LookyLoo! But your son is not at all alone in this, many people think this way. I was called a racist (by a teenager) because I was referencing a person I had met and was asked to describe them. And my description was something like “She’s shortish, around 5’2″, long black hair, she wears horn-rimmed glasses, she’s Chinese………”
It was that last word that got me into trouble. And the girl in question is actually from China!
He’s kinda a has been in terms of even being able to tour the college circuit anyways.
Doubt many college students watched Seinfeld.
Jim Gaffigan proves you can be funny without being racist or sexist or cursing.
Jim Gaffigan is awesome!
Jerry Seinfeld is an unfunny a$$hole.
I don’t know anything about him, other than “hotpockets”.
Jim Gaffigan is my go-to when I need a laugh. I love him. He uses the perfect amount of self-deprecation and mocking.
I was watching Bob’s Burgers the other night, and he was a voice of one of the kids Tina goes to school with. And I just kept picturing like..Jim in the role, rather than the cartoon kid because I’ve watched him enough that I just can picture him saying the lines.
Not really, I work with a lot of college age students & they quote Seinfield. Talk about the show. It’s a pop cult show & yes college kids still watch it.
Jim Gaffigan is utterly adorable. I still laugh at his character from the old show ‘My Boys’ and how he used to lie about hanging out with his friends because he really loved being at home with his wife.
weird because Jerry Seinfeld is certainly not an edgy comedian. i dont think he even uses curse words (which probably makes it harder)
when he said it i had to think about Taylor Swift and the like that want to tell us how its sexist when she gets asked about parading her famous boyfriends around and then writing songs about them.
Or Gwyneth Paltrow thinking its sexist to ask about her COMPETITION.
That’s what I thought too. Does Jerry Seinfeld even swear?
And I thought an example from pop culture would have been better to use too.
It’s usually white men complaining about the PC crowd and those damn social justice warriors. They can’t be as sexist, racist or homophobic as they’d like without those marginalized groups calling them out.
A rich white guy has no right to complain.
+1
So you’re offended over him saying people get offended to easily?
Nice way to take his words out of context, he doesn’t want to say racist things to black people. He just wants people to stop complaining about every little thing but Seinfeld is Jewish so I believe he’s had some oppression.
As has been pointed out upthread, Seinfeld is Jewish.
Isn’t it funny that people who constantly rail, whine and lecture people on the invalidity of ‘outrage’ think that they themselves have a monopoly on perspective?
So because they do it, you’re going to do it back to them? You like it so much that you just can’t wait to get the upper hand and “show them”?
What? Where did I say any of that? What am I threatening? What exactly have I told the world in this comment that I’m going to ‘do’ to people, commit Murder by Observation?
It’s a generalization, but sometimes it does seem like most of the celebrities who complain about political correctness are either white, male, or both. And saying that is not a slam or whiteness or maleness in and of themselves. There are a lot of people who are either male, white, or both that are great examples of empathy. It’s just to say that when we either A: don’t belong to a group that’s more likely to be affected by certain things- like racism, transphobia, slut-shaming, fat-shaming, Islamophobia, victim-blaming, etc.- or B, Aren’t learning more about those problems by actually LISTENING to the people most affected by them, we might be a little more likely to gloss over those things or be confused or bothered by someone even raising them as an issue and saying we should alter our behavior because of them. The bad part about human nature is that it sometimes takes us either feeling/seeing something personally, or an actual tragedy happening to other people, for us to stop, question, or begin to gain some empathy. Even worse is when a tragedy happens and we pause briefly to go “Oh, that’s so sad. Why does this happen?” But then later on, we’re back to business as usual, perpetuating the same mentalities in our regular lives that are a part of the cause of whatever news event or magazine story we just declared to be ‘so sad,’ and saying that our critics are ‘too sensitive,’
As for the term ‘social justice warrior’, it doesn’t really work properly as an insult. You get that it’s supposed to be a condescending dismissal of your concern- a way of someone telling you “Calm down and STFU about whatever social justice issue I (usually someone who the issue doesn’t affect as much, or someone who thinks it doesn’t affect them because they ‘follow the rules’ set by those in power) personally don’t see as a problem and I personally don’t want to hear about it.” But a term like social justice warrior is something you can easily turn around and reclaim by half-jokingly saying “Warrior? No. I’m a social justice AMAZON, bitches!.” I’ve seen a feminist who calls herself a social justice princess. 🙂 Sometimes throwing around the term as an insult makes the insulter look either unaware of something or apathetic about it, so it can backfire.
Jerry’s not discounting his daughter’s feelings; he’s just stating her knee jerk reaction to her mother’s comment that it was sexist was BS. I agree. It’s like the recent pearl clutching that went on when someone misspoke and said “colored people” instead of “people of color”. No harm intended, simply a slip of the tongue but everyone’s panties were in a bunch over it. If we all spoke thoughtfully, honestly and kindly with one another all this PC crap might go away. People spend way too much time being “offended” when no harm was intended in the first place.
1000 percent agree with you Catwoman.
Me too.
+10000 the PC police have gotten so out of hand. You can’t turn around without offending someone. Everyone just needs to take several seats and calm down.
‘Colored people’ has a negative place in history, as does n—, and ‘darkies’. A ‘slip of the tongue’ can be a subtle display of long held outdated racist beliefs. I don’t know what comment you are referring to, but would you have been so chill, if it was one of the other words? Some words sound like dog whistles, if you will. Maybe the person who said that was very old?
The moderator of the show where this slip was made said publicly that he was not offended and the guest meant no harm. I agree. It’s the PC police who went sideways with the nonsense about a harmless gaffe. It’s best to let the silly stuff slide but people WANT to be offended otherwise they have nothing to do with their time.
anon – I have no idea what show this is about – but really, what other option did the moderator have? Had be been offended, should he have thrown down in front of everyone and throw the show off track? Does he have enough sway with the network to not roll with it in that matter? Context counts. But honestly, anyone who uses the word (whatever it may be) automatically, is likely thinking it, or saying it in private. It’s rare that someone just casually uses a term for people that they don’t normally use. It’s also not like we’re living in a world with no access to internet, or culture, or books, or anything. And something as huge as civil rights movements, and slavery, and that kind of history isn’t something most people are just blissfully unaware of. So I don’t know – I tend to think if someone says an offensive word, it’s a word that isn’t new to them. Unless they’ve genuinely heard it once, and stupidly chose to repeat it on the fly.
It was Benedict Cunberbatch who made the “colored people” slip on the Tavis Smiley show. Tavis stated that he wasn’t offended and it was a harmless slip of the tongue. I saw the interview and I agree, Benedict meant no harm. Tavis is mature and professional, if he was made to feel uncomfortable he would have said so. The PC police went mad, demanding that BC be thrown off a cliff.
You are better at policing the PC police, because these incidences didn’t register on my radar, at all. Obviously Cumberbatch survived the cliff tossing to live another day.
the person who said it was Benedict Cumberbatch-is he even 40 yet?
Except in your own statement you dismiss the offense in the words: ‘colored people’ as a simple slip of the tongue (not a big history buff huh?) and then say if we all spoke ‘kindly’ the PC crap would be gone.
Hmmm, that seems like it favors the group of people causing the offense and pooh poohs everyone else who is insulted by their ignorance. So basically things shouldn’t change at all and the majority should go unchallenged.
THIS.
If we all “spoke thoughtfully” we wouldn’t have “slip of the tongue”s happening.
Maybe everyone can’t possibly keep up with the incessant and constantly changing grievance brigade’s “acceptable” terms. Some people have lives to live ya know. Perhaps if the perpetually offended could come together, write it all down and publish it, people would comply. But then they wouldn’t get to screech and attack and what fun would that be?
Pff, please. The world is not USA. That in your country a word is offensive doesn’t mean we all have to comply. Or agree. In my world none of these words is offensive, why would I consider US standards? I am not an American. Broaden your horizon a bit.
Agreed as to the knee jerk reaction part.
My daughters’ elementary school was in an uproar over choosing a mascot. The teachers wanted to use a locally found animal (like a coyote), but apparently all native animals are “native american symbols”, so that would be cultural appropriation, according to many.
There are some community kids sports teams who have awesome names like “The Spiders” and “Bulldozers”. No cultural appropriation there.
+100 to the original post! I see genuine response to prejudice and hate speech and I see political correctness as two different things. One involves campaigning and one involves pearl clutching. One wants actual change for the underprivileged and maligned of society and one is self serving and wants the focus on them and their offense.
Yes and no. When there is language that becomes ‘the norm’, as the mindset of society, it is often a reflection of the society’s thinking, but also a threshold and standard on behaviors. I’m not saying that people don’t overreact. They do. At the same time, there is no way to separate out the common usage of the pejorative n-word during a time when the country was largely racist, and where racist words and practices were the norm, and considered acceptable. The word itself, and the practices in concert with that mindset, represent a lot more than an individual’s subjective sensitivities to it.
You know what’s the funniest thing about PCness is Munchkin? It’s the people who don’t need it who are the most ready to dissmiss it. Crazy how that works, huh?
Marty I don’t agree with political correctness because it is unbiased about what it is objecting too. It disregards context and intent. It does not look at the bigger picture. Political correctness is worrisome because as I stated in another post that when the same outrage is applied to a slip of the tongue as it is to outright racism it detracts from the overall strength of the argument. Your comment demonstrates this exactly, in my post I made no racist, homophobic, sexist remarks, yet look how you attempted to shame me.
Similarly Kiddo I am not defending those with racist beliefs, such beliefs are always completely unfounded, and paint those who feel and voice them as a disgrace. Hate speech should never be tolerated, I don’t underestimate the power of this. However the arguments become cliche when applied across the board.
I see the opposite – the people who are targeted don’t give a rats rear because they know there are bigger battles to fight. It’s the “new progressives” that stomp and walk in circles.
But by dismissing political correctness all together, or as you put it above “but political correctness by definition is an excessive approach and we could do with less of it”, you are dismissing whole groups people who still need and use political correctness as an educational tool. Or at the very least a starting point.
Look, you absolutely have valid points when saying people can take it overboard, but I would rather people be PC then dismissive and apathetic towards the problems of people who need it.
munchkin, I wasn’t asserting that you supported hate speech. On the other hand, my point was history, and current day trolling, and subtle political propaganda that uses some terms in dog whistling. Those people will claim ignorance, but actually have intent to call the bases out.
It sounds like that wasn’t at all the case if the person who was addressed in the first comment, made a mistake in typing, reversing the term ‘People of Color’ to ‘Colored People’ and clarified that mistake, there I think it’s a pile-on to go after him/her and it is misdirected.
But there are factions of society that will insist that political correctness has gone too far, because they don’t feel the level of comfort in saying things any longer, like the ‘good ol’ days’.
At any rate, this is so far off the course, in regard to Seinfeld.
Please! How in the WORLD is saying that a 14 yr old girl might be interested in boys sexist?? Would it be sexist if she said the same thing to a 14 yr old boy??
I don’t think he’s dismissing his daughter’s feelings. I think he wants her to understand what sexism is and not to throw around a word because it’s cool to get on that bandwagon. Like using feminism or saying someone’s racist. These are all powerful words and they’re misused and overused.
This hyper PC crap isn’t make things better, it’s making things way worse. Everyone takes themselves too seriously and it’s BS. Everyone is so concerned about being offended that they are walking around looking to be offended. It’s insane.
We also don’t know the context of the situation. We don’t know how it started, or proceeded. Maybe her mother consistently says things that are tinged in sexism. Maybe she’s having the idea that she needs to eventually find a boyfriend to be fulfilled pushed on her already. Maybe that’s the biggest interest the wife takes in the daughter. Maybe she’s constantly hounded about whether she’s got her eyes set on any cute boys in her class. And maybe, the wording wasn’t what he stated it was. He’s trying to prove a point that people get too worked up too easily. If his wife said something more in line with sexist values, it’s not like he’s going to state exactly what she said.
Or maybe the conversation went exactly as he presented it. But none of us know. I don’t think it’s really fair to his daughter that he’d put it out there like that, really.
What’s amusing though – is that a lot of the people who complain that people are too PC and too easily offended tend to be completely outraged whenever it happens in reverse.
I don’t think PCness is making anything worse, to be honest. I think if you use common sense, and are polite, you’re not going to run into any real issues. I can’t recall anything I’ve said that has gotten me chewed up for being racially insensitive, or sexist, or what-have-you. There’s a trend of downplaying subtle sexism and complaining about crazy feminists, and that sort of thing. But the thing is – you can ignore things all day long. But how is that helping? How is that advancing us? There’s a lot of things that could be considered ‘not a big deal’ but you keep piling them on and on, and it quickly turns into a big deal.
There needs to be a balance. People shouldn’t be afraid of talking about things and trying to learn out of worry they’ll get crucified for misspeaking. But at the same time, there’s a lot of things that need to be brought up, a lot of thinking that IS racist and sexist, and damaging, even if it’s subtle. If it’s not brought up, it’s not going to change. If someone is told in a nice way, that the words they’re using are offensive, they should make a conscious effort to choose their words more carefully. If the situation is handled in an open way, it’s great. At the end of the day though, go back a few generations, and think of some of the backwards thinking and unfair treatment that happened. What if people didn’t react to it?
“I don’t think PCness is making anything worse, to be honest. I think if you use common sense, and are polite, you’re not going to run into any real issues. I can’t recall anything I’ve said that has gotten me chewed up for being racially insensitive, or sexist, or what-have-you. There’s a trend of downplaying subtle sexism and complaining about crazy feminists, and that sort of thing. But the thing is – you can ignore things all day long. But how is that helping? How is that advancing us? There’s a lot of things that could be considered ‘not a big deal’ but you keep piling them on and on, and it quickly turns into a big deal.”
This. All day everyday. The people most complaining about PC-ness are just those suffering now that everyone isn’t biting their tongue and letting them think they’re funny. What a painful new trend in society huh?
Brilliantly said!
I have REALLY got to change my screen name, different Amy than these last two comments.
I understand why “colored people” is such an offensive term in the US, but I am baffled as to why its grammatical twin “people of color” has been used to replace it. The latter is the former, grammatically speaking. Why not say “non-white” if one wants to refer to people who are not white?
It’s interesting to note that in South Africa, “colored” is one of the races that a person is classified as being, and is an inoffensive term.
@Tiny Martian – The explanation for not using a wild animal as a school mascot is incredibly offensive! Using something as a mascot, whether it is an animal, a god, etc., is common to virtually all cultures historically, so Native Americans do not have a monopoly on that. Secondly, did someone actually verify that “all native animals are ‘native american symbols,'” or did they just assume this to be the case?
Thirdly, there is nothing wrong with cultural appropriation. It has been the normal way of cultural growth since time immemorial. (Anthropology nerd here.) Any time cultures have interacted, they have, to grossly simplify things, either interacted violently or peaceably, but either way, cultural ideas were appropriated. Even today’s white American culture is an amalgam of many other cultural ideas that have blended over the years, yet suddenly cultural appropriation is bad. What has happened is not that cultural appropriation has become inherently awful, but that politically correct people with blinkered worldviews have decided that Not Offending Anybody is the most important thing in the history of the world. And included beneath their Inoffensive Umbrella are things that aren’t even offensive, but I digress.
Extremists of any stripe are closed-minded idiots.
I think it’s like this:
When you say “coloured people” or “disabled person” you are placing the disability, or the colour of their skin, above just being human.
“person with a disability” is how I was taught to refer to people with disabilities, in school. The person comes first, before anything else.
perhaps that is why “person of colour” is used.
personally, I don’t see why race even needs to enter into a description of a person.
That is a rather gross simplification of cultural appropriation. It isn’t a matter of ‘shared’ culture or being a ‘melting pot. It’s to do with marginalised groups having their symbols/traditions/skills/spirituality etc stolen and misused. It’s about those symbols being adopted by mainstream ‘white’ culture without their consent, often whilst they are simultaneously still being oppressed and silenced by that same white majority.
Amandla Stenberg (aka Rue from the hunger games) did an excellent 101 on appropriation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1KJRRSB_XA
I wouldn’t say that cultural appropriation in general isn’t a bad thing. I mean, I don’t think certain things like just wearing a hairstyle from a culture that is not your own (or using a language, or doing a dance move, or enjoying certain genres of entertainment) are all by themselves acts of putting one race as superior to another.
But if someone is deliberately taking on elements of another culture that is lower on the racial hierarchy than them either to mock/belittle, to give themselves a more ‘edgy, dangerous’ image, because they’re like “ooh, taking on elements of this culture makes me so exotic, tempting, and sexy!”, or deciding to ‘dress up as’ a more marginalized race (by doing this you’re basically treating a group of people like they’re literally your costume for the night) I do think that’s bad.
And as mentioned in the video, sometimes there are racial double standards where if a white person adopts an element of another culture, it’s trendy or non-threatening, but if a PoC does it, it’s deemed ‘unprofessional’, ‘unclassy’, too ‘foreign/ethnic’ ‘alienating’ or a sign that someone is ‘up to no good’. Sometimes even using elements from your own culture is something a Poc is even warned against doing by members of their own race- BECAUSE of the fact that other people may be more likely to discriminate against them over it. All of this is pretty messed up. So even though we may not personally agree with everything on the cultural appropriation issue, that doesn’t mean it’s a non-issue.
Exactly. As I wrote above, the world is not USA and I am not willing to change my vocabulary which is perfectly fine where I am from and where I live now just to fit an endless row of rules and limitations currently in force in the USA as it seems. I find it quuite insulting actually that so many Americans seemingly forget that other people from other backgrounds have no obligation to live by American rules.
+1
Kids commonly get certain concepts wrong, but instead of blaming it on the world being too this or that, most parents just chalk it up to their kid not being old enough to understand and then teach them what the concept really is so that their kid gets it right next time.
Racism and sexism are very real issues, that being said i do like when clever comics can find a way to make you laugh at some of the stupidity surrounding these subjects. The one thing that I don’t like about the new PC world is the fact that no one can say that they biblically disagree with hohomosexuality without being brought down and shamed. I don’t get it! I don’t think that we as people have the right to harm or be mean to anyone based on their sexual orientation but to simply say that you disagree ccauses an uproar.
I disagree with this. LAZY UNFUNNY jokes don’t pass muster. Just passing on a stereotype with no payoff on the punchline doesn’t work.
Yeah, because there’s nothing funnier than judging someone for being homosexual based on your interpretation of the Bible, then complaining that YOU are being “shamed.” Cracks me up every time.
People don’t have to agree with homosexuality, they just can’t deny rights to others. Also, not everyone with an objection to homosexuality is religious.
I don’ t like pc people who think that they are allowed to say whatever they want, but the second someone else does and they disagree, then they think they have the moral right to shame them, either.
However, there is a difference between shaming someone for what they are, and shaming someone for what they say/do. Being homosexual is something people cannot help, you are born like that, and you shouldn’ t be discriminated or shamed for this. Same for women, non caucasian people, people with disabilities.
Politics and religions are choices. You choose to think like that, you choose to discriminate people because they’ re not white, heterosexual males, you choose to call them with derogatory terms, you choose to fight to limit their rights and freedom. Even if you were raised in a certain way, at one point you should ask yourself some questions, and decide for yourself if you should keep going or go another way.
Whatever the case, saying or implying that a homosexual is an abomination and deserves to die because he likes sleeping with other men because the Bible says so, is not the same as saying or implying that people who think like that are morons.
It’s not that you disagree that is the issue. It’s that you (the royal “you”, I’m not sure about you specifically) want to keep them from getting married and this have the same rights as straight people. I speak for a lot of people when I say I don’t care what you think, at all. If you don’t believe homosexuality is right, you are free to not be gay. I care that you are keeping people from having the same rights as everyone else.
Okay, I get it. You want people to only be “PC” about your religious beliefs even in jokes, but everything else is copacetic.
I see and appreciate your use of copacetic, Kiddo. Jus’ sayin’.
No dirty tricks!
I would probably have said, “everything else is hunkydory”!
I am a blank gay female atheist, should I have said that first lol? My point is that their are oppo0sing Sides to this debate but people who say that they disagree (often when asked) are shut down and penalized as if their is onfar one way to think and feel about the subject. Agree with me or else is not cool on any subject. And as far as comics joking about racism and sexism, I mean people like Trevor Noah who says this is happening but its stupid because…. And then the people laugh hahaha. Nobody is saying they hang black and beat the gays lets laugh!
” THINK FOR YOURSELVES AND ALLOW OTHERS TO DO SO!”
Comedy is about punching up, not down. Don’t use your skincolor/religious beliefs as a way to squirrel out of criticism. The truth is homosexual people are killed simply for their sexuality and refused basic rights and respect.
No one wants to har har over them gays when they still face the horror of having their children stripped from them or the loss of their home and security because a govt. decides their bond isn’t legally real.
No offense, sincerely, but I can’t follow your comment leading up to the last statement.
Ha that great, still figuring this soapbox thing out! It doesn’t help that in doing this from a small touchscreen lol . good day folks
Ohwell is black, gay, female and athiest. If she isn’t offended by every word that comes out of a mouth then neither should you. At least on Celebitchy white people seem to be obsessed with being offended when the people who should be don’t care. Living it helps you separate the forest from the trees.
First, I didn’t say I was offended. I said that jokes that are a MERELY a regurgitation of stereotypes, without thought or a punchline aren’t funny, and are lazy, relying on old standby tropes. Thanks for telling me when I should be offended or not offended, is that the new PC standard? A random person on the internet is the arbitrator of all things, isn’t that the complaint about the last “PC culture”.
*Throws confetti*
I’m black, straight, and female. Whoopie.
Newsflash. People of the same race, religion, or sexual orientation are not a monolithic group sharing a single brain. The There’s a great irony in people who seem to enjoy telling others what to be offended about while equally corralling a minority group into their own narrow beliefs.
Are these people not telling everyone else when to be offended? Ohwell wrote that people should be able to make their own decisions and I agree. As a black female, I don’t need others telling me that I should be offended because they want to be viewed as intellectual, progressive and politically correct.
@anon321
I don’t think that “opposing homosexuality for Biblical reasons” is just a “different opinion.” It’s hate. My niece and nephew are both gay. It offends me when someone tells me that they are less in the sight of God than straight people, and when people act as though they have a choice about who they are and they are making the wrong choice. They are entitled to their opinion, and I am entitled to think they are narrow-minded and stupid. It has nothing to do with how I want to be seen by others. It has to do with idiots judging people I love for something they can’t control.
anon321, you don’t have to be offended by anything, including not being offended by what may offend others, which is really upsetting you. It’s not my business whether you are an intellectual, progressive, triangular, circular, etc., or some other definition that you feel “These people” are imposing on you. Likewise, you shouldn’t feel the need to impose a rule of absolute tolerance of everything on others because it suits you, and annoys you otherwise, in whatever philosophy you subscribe to. I mentioned that comedy needs to be good and funny. How you have taken this as an assault on your being, I have no clue.
And since you have been pretty much trailing MY COMMENTS specifically, I think you may have an issue with me, in particular, but again, that’s your business.
@anon321: Just because some people who aren’t white, male, and heterosexual aren’t offended by something doesn’t automatically mean that there’s nothing wrong with it. You have the right to feel that something’s not offensive, but your opinion alone doesn’t determine whether or not a mentality or practice is negative for whole groups of people, even if you belong to that group. Not everybody who sees how something can be harmful is trying to make themselves out to be more progressive and intellectual than you. I’m willing to bet that that’s not the goal of most adults who give these criticisms.
And this is not an attack on you, but sometimes even someone belonging to the group in question may not look at something as a problem either because they’ve grown used to it, or they’re like “Meh. It’s an inequality or a problem, but we’ve got bigger fish to fry, so I really don’t want to hear anyone complaining about it. #firstworldproblems.”
On top of everything else, being homophobic literally requires you to discriminate based on gender and create double-standards based on a person’s sex. You’re basically saying, “It’s okay for a male to love/date/have sex with/marry a female, but if a female does any of those things with another female, it’s immoral and unnatural and should not be accepted.” “It’s okay for a female to love/date/have sex with/marry a male, but if a male does those things with a male, it’s gross and wrong and an abomination and should not be allowed.” People who want social and legal equality have every right to be questioning, critical, and unwelcoming toward discrimination against others based on their biology. And what’s the reason given for the discrimination? “Because the Bible?” Religious law/opinion is never valid grounds for discrimination, or making that discrimination ok. If that’s the case, we might as well go back to telling women that they’re obligated to be submissive to their husbands (or hell, men in general) just because some religious books say so. Religion is not infallible, no matter how much people want to put it on a pedestal- the writers of the holy books have sanctioned or made law all kinds of things that are, at best, discriminatory and oppressive, or at worst, violent; That doesn’t make those things okay or right just because they were in the bible.
And I do think at some point people should stop and think, ‘Hmmm, These books were written thousands of years ago….predominantly, if not exclusively, by heterosexual, cisgender men…. who have held the majority of the world’s political power for a long time…and who were known for being very controlling and authoritarian about what people do with their bodies and who has authority over who. As much as one may or may not believe God exists, is it even remotely possible that those in authority twisted certain religious laws and teachings to their advantage? Can we be sure that the rules that put gays, bisexual people, transgender people, and women underneath heterosexuals and males are entirely a ‘divine’ symbol or coincidence, instead of a power play?”
So is it still ok to use the term “black”? A few years ago at work I referred to the “black community” (we offer community programs) and my “soroirity chic” coworker jumps out of her seat screeching with, “Can you SAY that?!!!” in a “bless your heart” tone of voice as if I was a misbehaving child. I was taken aback as I am from a very urban, mixed culture, and had relocated to a more homogenous, white city where this took place. As far as I knew this term was “ok” to use…and afterall, there still is “Black History Month”, right?
I was more offended at her rude behavior, but it did make me think. This was a few years ago but ever since then I feel hesitant to let ANYthing related to nationality slip out of my tongue for fear it is somehow no longer “OK” and I am just the last person to know.
Oh, and I should have said, 40 year old “soroirity chic”.
Some people love being outraged. It gives them the opportunity to demonstrate how enlightened they are.
YES It’s like they get drunk off self-righteousness. The right has adherence to religion and folks like me have adherence to “political correctness” (for lack of a better of expression) to make them feel superior.
YES!! Yes yes yes.
YES! You said in one sentence what takes me about 3 paragraphs!
+1000
Yes Jerry, comedians are the real oppressed class here. Sigh…
I love it when old, white-passing dudes tell us what’s actually racist and sexist.
Me too, it’s so cute when people show their frustration at the world changing against them.
I love it when people generalize about old white dudes.
I loathe the term politically correct.
It’s usually used in advance of some kind of hateful remark.
It’s also a very 90s term.
+1, it has taken on this pejorative intention like ‘feminist’ and ‘liberal’. How exactly is something ‘politically’ correct, when political factions are at odds over it? It says POLITICALLY correct, because it is a specific DIG/alluding at a political conspiracy again.
It’s not called ‘socially’ correct.
Ah you’re right. Politically Correct is this decades version of “Virgin isn’t a dirty word” just like that some want to frame the issue in such a way that those struggling feel guilty for complaining and those who’ve always been in power can remain comfortable and unchallenged.
I was just trying to find a better term than “politically correct” above. It definitely sounds dated.
I’ve heard “issue sensitive” as an alternative to “politically correct.” Personally, I like the word respect.
I’ve watched a few of his comedians in cars having coffee and it’s lame IMO. Jerry is out of touch. He had his ride with fame and now it’s over
But Jerry is a member of a marginalized group, he is Jewish. Having said that, I doubt that he’d be on board with a comedians riffing on subjects that could be perceived as anti-Semetic. And I am just thinking about how he reacted when that guy from his show how played Kramer went on his racist rant towards the people who heckled him, where were Seinfeld’s claims that pc’ ness was out of control then??
I kind of get what he means. Like for example, i remember when that True Blood actor (who briefly played Lafayette’s love interest) said that he wasn’t comfortable with the gay love scenes and everyone just roasted him. Its not like he said gay people were wrong, disgusting, deserved to be punished or anything like that. he just said he wasn’t comfortable doing those scenes. it honestly wasn’t that bad but everyone jumped on him for being homophobic. I think thats a fair example of being “too PC”.
I never watched True Blood or engaged in the conversations, but really, it sounds like the guy was more of a shitty actor, than anything. Did he mention that he’d be uncomfortable doing love scenes with a woman he wasn’t attracted to? Because, really, acting is the ability to pretend and play characters that aren’t exactly who you are as a person. I never read the article, but why did he take the role?
I agree that it doesnt make him the best actor, but there were so many people crapping on him for being homophobic trash, and it was like “Really?”
And I dont know know hy he took the job. Maybe he thought he would be fine with it. *Shrugs*.
You’ve never watched the show but you have concluded that he is a shitty actor rather than accept that he was uncomfortable with the subject matter.
Fine, It was an enormous challenge.
Thank you anon321! The show was amazing and the actor was awesome as the character Lafayette. Would never had known he felt that way.
Nelsan Ellis was the best part of TB for me.
Maybe he thought he could handle it but found it more challenging than he originally anticipated.
I think it’s absurd that anybody called him “homophobic”, particularly when he was so committed to playing a gay character so convicingly.
Now that I know it was Luke Grimes I’m 100% with Kiddo on this one.
Any actor who would give up on a role on a hit TV show because of the character’s love interest being of the same sex probably lacks the professionalism required to be a great actor.
I mean, sure it’s entirely within his right, but it doesn’t show someone who’s very committed to his craft, no?
So, in order to be “committed to his craft” one has to agree to kiss, for example, another of his sex? Or have a sex scene with them? Really? That’s as simplystic as it gets. As someone who works in the field and knows many actors of both sexes, I call bs on this. There are hundreds, thousands, actors out there who wouldn’t cross a line when it comes to playing a gay character, for some that would be kissing, for others – a nude scene. And they do not deserve to be called uncommitted to their craft by someone who p,ayed how many characters in their life exactly? Yes, thought so.
The problem with the True Blood actor was, why in God’s name would you take a job on True Blood?!?!?! It was like the gayest show on t.v. at the time. By the time he came to the show, I think everyone except Bill and Sookie had some kind of same sex encounter.
You don’t sign on to the Kardashian show if you are morally opposed to famewhoring…..
Did he say he was “morally opposed” to homosexuality though? Or did he just say that he had trouble with the male-on-male love scenes?
Ok I just Googled and it was Luke Grimes who quit the show because he didn’t want to play a gay character’s love interest. That makes more sense to me than Ellis having an issue with it. I’m much less disappointed now. Oh, and I agree with you about anybody going into TB without expecting to have several gay sex scenes. What the hell did he think was gonna happen?
Wiki says that Grimes is the son of a Reverend and comes from a very religious upbringing so his decision isn’t entirely surprising.
I never saw the actual quote, even though I think I remember hearing about it. I don’t think a straight person not feeling comfortable playing a gay person is automatically a terrible homophobe. He has the right to feel uncomfortable doing something totally foreign to him. I think motive is what matters. Was it because as a straight man he didn’t know if he could do it right? Or was it because he was one of those ‘gay is icky/an abomination’ folks?
I agree with him. There are people that have become so obsessed with winning oppression olympics they change the structure and definition of sexism and racism on a weekly basis…whatever will guarantee them something to be outraged about and get attention over. I think it’s a rush for people – to be outraged, to get out their pitchforks, to have overly kneejerk reactions. The things that will offend are becoming more weird by the day because they often have to search so hard to find something to be offended by.
It’s good that people become more aware of what they say or do, but somehow that idea has gotten hijacked by a new wave of social justice people who are going off the rails with it. Losing any sense of balance, critical thinking, personal responsibility. It’s become a celebration of over-sensitivities, concern about words rather than meanings. I mean, it’s becoming increasingly more common for campuses to bend over to try to please people that are doing stuff like protesting college law courses on sexual assault law because it’s “triggering.” Seriously, get out of town with that. It’s ridiculous. But those people are being catered to, instead of being told to grow the hell up. Everyone is so worried about being labeled negatively, they’re actually caving to this idiocy.
I agree. I’m sick of hearing the words racist, feminist and sexist used in all the wrong context. So people get offended at some humor? Big deal. They’ll live. I don’t want to live in a vanilla world.
Yes Claire, I agree 100%!!
I do not enjoy Seinfeld’s humor at all, but I can agree with him to an extent. As a teacher for several years now, the students say things are “racist” constantly and have no idea what they are talking about because usually the example is not racist. I teach minority students and that is the knee jerk reaction to say something is racist, when it isn’t but that is just the thing to say to counter something. They say that or it is sexual harassment. The students use buzz words that they know will get other people in trouble.
I think he won’t play college campuses because the students don’t know or care who he is.
Never understood his hype. He’s not funny.
Yeah, PC-ness hurts comedy – if you’re a lazy comic. It’s so much easier to make fun of marginalized groups.
Seriously, the younger comics can run circles around him and he knows it. You have to do more than point to a struggling minority and yuk it up these days if you want to get the love of college kids.
Yes, Seinfeld is well known for his racist humor, he was always “yukin it up” about minorities *eyeroll*
Whatever anyone here thinks of Seinfeld he is one of the most successful comedians ever and his show was beloved by millions. He made a show about nothing into one of the most successful sitcoms ever. give the man his due.
No one said he didn’t have a place in comedy history. He just was NEVER in the same place as Carlin on substantial issues. And FWIW, Carlin didn’t abide by rules, during his own time. He was fearless and did what he wanted in spite of standards, as did Richard Prior, and more recently, Dave Chappelle.
Don’t complain about people’s sensitivities, when you are sensitive to how you are going to be treated, in response to your comedy.
Kim Kardashian is also wildly successful, and made a show out of nothing. Just saying.
If I were the daughter, I’d be less offended that my mom was being “sexist” than for implying that I was shallow.
I don’t think I ever laughed at an episode of Seinfeld. Ever. Or his stand up. I guess I am not his target audience which is cool, to each’s own. (female, black, late 20s). Really Seinfeld was filler before Star Trek: Voyager on UPN and I didn’t get why it was so beloved? Eh.
As for Political Correctness–can it be taken to far? Yes. But so can anything. I personally think it shows some measure of human kindness to consider the emotions of another human that you have no “stake” in, e.g. they’re not family/friends.
Most people have a very vague idea of what discrimination is. They couldn’t answer a feminism question any better than Megan Trainor. They’re not enlightened, so much as squeemish. They think feminism is about overthrowing men, so they start twitching when people bring up the F word. They think racism is a personal moral issue so they can say they’re not racist and, job done, they’re excused from talking about it. I think being PC is bad because it just means I’m sensitive, let’s talk about something else. I am at the point where I don’t really care about people’s feelings. I care about groups that are being discriminated against. I am tired of the indifference, inability to acknowledge the experiences of others, and the desire to be comfortable. These are uncomfortable topics. Get used to it. I wish comedians came up with a better way to address this sort of middle to upper class insistence on changing the subject for the sake of comfort. PC is not the right term. It’s more insidious than that.
I think with comedy, the problem arises with unfunny deliverers of jokes that kick downward.
Peer to peer reflection or upward mocking comes from a more enlightened place of humor because it is based on experience and it doesn’t tend to come off as tone deaf, being spun from an ignorant ivory tower inhabitant.
Agree. My takeaway is this man has very little in common with the college crowd. He perceives that his jokes are not going to land well. So, he describes the problem as a tooPC issue, when it has more to do with his insecure reliance on getting yuk yuks with “downward kicks”.
I really don’t think comedians are self-censoring actually funny stuff. Guys like Daniel Tosh are really popular with younger people and he does have some actually racists stuff. But I do see some insidious stuff – like increasing protests on colleges to shut down controversial speakers – which can be an effective protest, but can be harmful in the long run to an actual consideration and debate of the issues. And, and some sites that I visit (like Gawker) any story involving potential racism, even before facts are known, turns into many people shutting down anyone who tries to analyze the situation with some nuance instead of rushing to condemnation. The problem is that there are always real racist trolls around and people are sick of someone justifying away every instance of sexism and racism so they get a little overzealous in the other direction. And the internet is all about getting your word in first and verbally jousting with people. So, some of this seems more like a symptom of the internet, and the viral/mass nature of condemnation that doesn’t particularly discriminate between big and little incidents, rather than PCness.
Well put.
Wren33, I agree with what you said about people sick of someone justifying away every instance of sexism/racism/etc. and that the then discussion escalates. For me, a gay non-white person, it’s also from fatigue. I cannot tell you how many times I’ve felt like I’m physically exhausted when someone pops up in comments saying “well, this is a good opportunity to educate people about X.” No. If this is the first time you’re hearing about feminism, or racism, or violence against transgender people, or voting rights, or whatever, then your circle isn’t big enough. Sorry to hijack the discussion a little, but your comment made me think of this link that I share with the kids in my youth program (it explains how I feel better than I’m doing right now): http://racismschool.tumblr.com/post/60983407553/its-not-my-job-to-educate-you-explain-it
Right on!
Agree Sammy. For everyone upset about political correctness gone too far, things that today are considered outrageous, socially unpalatable, and in some cases illegal, were once the norm.
Jerry is the stereotypical white guy in the room trying to tell everyone how sensitive they are and how it was so much better when he could say anything he wanted and everyone would chuckle uncomfortably.
So what else is new?
It sounds funny to say this but I believe Jerry is just part of a dying breed of comedy who’s seeing his relevance stripped. Younger comedians are getting are getting more attention because they ARE tackling the issues of racism and sexism in his country without having to fall back on old cliches. Amy Schumer is everywhere and her weekly show has been really amazing for discussing the issues women face in and out of the entertainment field. Trevor Noah (and yes he’s had his issues to) has great comments about racism as well as his South African heritage. Childish Gambino, Kevin Hart, I’m a big comedy lover and there’s so many in the late 30’s and under crowd who are killing it.
The truth is Jerry can’t cut it with this crowd, it’s not enough to be offensive if you’re not highlighting some amazing issue. Glover’s/CB’s “Why don’t women tell crazy boyfriend stories?” comes to mind as a good example of the realities in our world between the sexes. Comedy is now a full body sport, you’ve got to engage the audience on every level and bring them into your perspective. Jerry, standing in one spot and making sarcastic observations about everyday life would have bore the f out of everyone.
I love this comment. My own two cents: Jerry Seinfeld is not a sacred cow who should be above criticism, and quite frankly, just because back in the day was great for him doesn’t mean it was great for everyone else.
I find this funny because Jerry Seinfeld is not a particularly edgy comic. He definitely was original and engaging at the height of his career and he didn’t have to sink into edgy to do it. And Chris Rock is an edgy comic and well within the right to say what he wants about that because he is black and understands what it’s like to be marginalized.
As for his daughter, I kind of get what he’s saying. Like that was probably his wife just sort of trying to be cute and bond with her and talk boys, etc., and being that she 14 and from a different generation, it went totally left field. 14-year-olds are obnoxious and contrary, but also at the same time, so full of self-discovery and experimenting with what sort of makes up their beliefs and ethics. I remember changing my views from one thing to the next when I was 14 and a lot of it just came from the culture.
Seinfeld’s kid is so young I don’t get why he referenced her as an example. And in full context where the private conversation would have made sense to the both of them, both the mom and the daughter probably also made sense in how they exercised their points of view.
I’ve always heard Seinfeld was/is a tool….
He dated Shoshan Lonstein when she was 17 and he was 38. I can’t remember if people thought the pairing was weird since I was really young at the time myself, but today I think this kind of pairing would be deemed problematic if reaction to the Kylie Jenner/Tyga (sp?) relationship is anything to go by (the age difference between Tyga and Kylie is much less than between Lonstein and Seinfeld).
And wasn’t Jessica Seinfeld married when he decided he’d like to date her?
Jessica Seinfeld said several times in her interviews that she had made a mistake when she was young and desperate to get married by going through with the wedding to someone she wasn’t compatible with. Anyone can relate, I think. It appears she left him as soon as she got back from the honeymoon and they divorced shortly after.
No, I can’t relate to Jessica Seinfeld. She was also 27 or so when she first got married, not 19.
The marriage worked out for Seinfeld and his wife, which is good, but I still can’t relate to their situation in terms of how the events unfolded for these two PARTICULAR people
@perplexed – haha, don’t relate then. Until same shit hits you, it’s hard to relate to other people 🙂
I can relate to other people when bad stuff happens (i.e losses, sadness, misery, poor decisions, etc.) — just not their situation. I don’t know what category their situation fits into — maybe one has to be really rich to understand it. To be honest, I’m probably too middle-class to ever get the chance to face the dilemma Jessica Seinfeld had — I’ll never have the opportunity to be in a Manhattan gym to meet a rich comedian when I’m engaged, and then have the option of dumping, right after the honeymoon, the rich guy I married in order to go for the other rich guy who is guaranteeing me that he’ll be a sure thing.
Way up thread, someone made reference to comics being “sued”- they are sued but the possibility exists of not getting bookings based on someone posting something to YouTube. I was listening to an interview with Chris Rock in connection with his latest movie, and he was making the observation that standup is where you as a comedian try out new material- and some jokes are kept and worked on, others are discarded bec they aren’t funny for any number of reasons. And he further went on to say that in today’s environment, that’s getting increasingly harder to do. One of the Wayans was interviewed about his upcoming comedy tour, and he too made the same observation. Not being close to funny myself, what they both were saying made sense to me.
I think one of the issues there is that in comedy it’s easy to get on a roll. To finally have the audience on your side and laughing along and go further with a bit than you should have and cross the side to offensiveness. I can definitely see this as being tricky but I think ultimately it requires greater control and awareness.
Other forms of social interaction have evolved, look at how our media correspondents and late night talk show hosts perform. They’re careful but still poke fun at popular culture. They say what people want to hear in a way that will get them on the Today show for even more audience exposure.
Comedy will evolve too, it won’t be easy for the people who are used to the old method. For instance I said above that Jerry is used to the walk on stage and stand in one place form of comedy and these days comedians are so physical and energetic. There’s a definite shift in how people perform as a whole.
He’s right!
How the he is that statement sexist? She would have said the same damn thing to a bit the same age. Replace the pronouns and the same exact thing woul have been said. Yes, teenagers are usually interested in members of the opposite (or same) sex. That is in no way sexist. I am all for equality and women’s issues and equal pay, but we are going to lose this issue focusing on asinine stuff like that.
None of us would know about this conversation if Jerry Seinfeld hadn’t mentioned his kid as an example though. So I don’t think this issue will be lost simply because kids are saying something in private to their moms that seems to make sense to them at the time (er, their very youthful ages).
Love him and love his comment! So true!
He’s not funny. Much of what he said on Seinfeld fell flat. It was everyone else who carried the show.
The problem with Jerry is that his comedy never changed with the times. He can’t relate to young people anymore. His show was a hit a long time ago. I don’t know any young ones who watch re-runs of his show but I know a lot of young kids who love Fresh Prince of Bel-Air. Some comedy can carry through generations, and some can not.
I was a child when Seinfeld had its finale I think in the late 90s? I saw some of it then and then later in life when I was older…….I was shocked. I thought, ‘this is the show everybody loved? But……it’s not funny.’ I feel bad for his daughter. No offense Jerry but she probably can’t stand you (he probably already knows that). College kids and that whole demographic are where the money is and businesses know that (if you’re under 25 you’re the $$$$ demo). Jerry is irrrelevant – a grandpa.
Yeah, I’m with you. It ended a couple weeks before I turned 8. I occasionally will see something funny in an episode, or certain episodes that are amusing – but I really don’t think the show as a whole was some sort of amazing hilarious thing.
Jerry, if you can’t be funny without resorting to insulting marginalized people, then you aren’t very good at your job.
I teach for a living and I do agree with him on how teenagers do not use either of those words correctly. I always tell a student when they say “that’s racist” to go look up the word then come back to the conversation. And yes, I do agree that society as whole does have a sensitivity chip on their shoulders and that the world has gone too PC, it’s been this way since 9-11 to be frank. But on the other side of the coin, the society is changing and a lot of the go-to jokes/gags don’t work anymore.
I think that people can take things too far. I have done so myself. But statistically-speaking, the kids are the ones who are less segregated now, in terms of friendships and associations, so although there is a downside of misunderstanding meanings and mountain to mole-hilling, there are some very good things to be said about that generation. And barring classics, humor has a way of changing over time anyway, just like music and fashion, fine arts, home decorations, and on and on.
That’s a good point about humour changing over time.
What Jessica said is a gendered assumption, and technically is sexist – Albeit not a degrading or hurtful remark.
A 14 year old is not a college student. So comparing a 14 year old’s thinking to that of 18-22 year olds is a bit silly. Secondly she may have not used the term ‘sexist’ in totally correct terms according to Jerry’s view but he’s just being facetious. He knows what she means. One could call it sexist, another could call it patronizing. Another could raise an eyebrow at the comment coming from whatsherface in the first place.
I watched a couple of the comedians in cars…. it should have been subtitled “Yeah comedy’s a job and we’re not always ‘on’… exhibit A”
I gotta say, I think you’re totally missing the boat on this one. He’s not discounting his daughter’s feelings, he’s merely pointing out that she doesn’t understand the true meaning of the word “sexist” and he’s right. She DOESN’T understand the word. And he has a valid point. As an attorney, I volunteer in Baltimore with a youth organization for troubled kids called “Teen Court”. Kids are supposed to take accountability for infractions they’ve committed and get to understand the justice system and how it works. When I would ask these kids to come up with various mitigating factors to negate the seriousness of their actions, invariably several would always immediately blurt out “racism” or “sexism”, and it was damn clear they honestly didn’t totally get the meaning of the words, they just hear them all the time and know they’re associated with something bad. I don’t think it’s bad to be sensitive. On the contrary, we all need to be more sensitive. But just putting words in a box and telling people they’re off-limits isn’t really teaching them what’s wrong with the word and why it’s bad. That’s all I’m saying.
Good points.
Actually, Sammi, your comment sounds pretty nasty. Good comedy should make people laugh, just laugh. George Carlin was a super performer at “uncovering truths”, but he was funny while doing so. Jerry Seinfeld is just not funny. Fact. And, guess what, Christian shows are not funny and contain no humor.
pc is a term we use to categorize that which we used to call common decency. growing up, i heard all manner of ethnic slurs from one parent and was taught by the other never to use words that might hurt other people’s feelings. it is a matter of understanding that certain words can hurt and when in doubt, don’t say it! i got it and i was only four…..
I dunno I read his book which is basically his stand up routine and laughed so much! I think he is hilarious.!
I’ve always respected him as a comedic writer more than anything else. He has a great sense of identifying life’s little stupidities and creating situations where they can play out. You don’t have to go farther than Seinfeld episodes (past Season Two) to find an awful lot of evidence for that ability. But I think it’s fair to say that his own shtick isn’t all that funny all the time, and he wasn’t the funniest part of the show, either, but as I said he created the situations and his part was often to act as a catalyst for others. It created terrific comedic synergy, in my view. So I certainly think he’s a great comedic mind, if not the greatest comic out there. That said, I don’t think his concerns about PC are either well thought out or articulated, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think he has a point.