I remember hearing something vague about Matt Damon doing a movie in China or a movie about China, but I honestly didn’t pay much attention to it. As it turns out, Matty D is the star of a film called The Great Wall. It comes out in February 2017. You can see a promotional photo from The Great Wall ^^ above. I’m also including the poster for the film, which is just a close-up of Matt Damon’s face. The film is a fictional (sci-fi/fantasy) account of how and why The Great Wall of China was made. And… the film stars (in the lead roles and first-billed) Matt Damon, Willem Dafoe and Pedro Pascal. I sh-t you not. To be fair, the rest of the cast is Chinese. But with all of the whitewashing going down in Hollywood these days (and always), I’m SHOCKED that no one at any point just stopped and said, “Hey, are we making a movie about China starring a bunch of white people? Just checking.” Here’s the just-released trailer:
Fantasy-action film that’s supposed to be China’s version of Game of Thrones? Starring Matt Damon? Eh.
Well, Constance Wu is having none of this turdburger. Wu, the star of ABC’s Fresh Off the Boat, has increasingly become a de facto spokesperson for Asian and Asian-American representation in Hollywood, and she’s part of a larger conversion this year especially about diversity in entertainment. Well, after the trailer for The Great Wall came out, Wu took to Twitter and posted a lengthy statement, first tweeting “Can we all at least agree that hero-bias & ‘but it’s really hard to finance’ are no longer excuses for racism? TRY” and then posting the full piece statement here. Here’s the main gist:
“We have to stop perpetuating the racist myth that [only a] white man can save the world. Our heroes don’t look like Matt Damon. They look like Malala. [Gandhi]. Mandela. Your big sister when she stood up for you to those bullies that one time. Money is the lamest excuse in the history of being human. So is blaming the Chinese investors. (POC’s choices can be based on unconscious bias too) Remember it’s not about blaming individuals, which will only lead to soothing their lame “b-but I had good intentions! but…money!” microaggressive excuses.
Rather, it’s about pointing out the repeatedly implied racist notion that white people are superior to POC and that POC need salvation from our own color via white strength. When you consistently make movies like this, you ARE saying that. YOU ARE. Yes, YOU ARE. YES YOU ARE. Yes, dude, you fucking ARE. Whether you intend to or not. We don’t need salvation. We like our color and our culture and our own strengths and our own stories. (If we don’t, we should) We don’t need you to save us from anything. And we’re rrrreally starting to get sick of you telling us, explicitly or implicitly, that we do.
Think only a huge movie star can sell a movie? That that has NEVER been a total guarantee. Why not TRY to be better? If white actors are forgiven for having a box office failure once in a while, why can’t a [person of color] sometimes have one? And how COOL would it be if you were the movie that took the ‘risk’ to make a POC as your hero, and you sold the s–t out of it?! The whole community would be celebrating!” After all, actors of color should have the chance to make box-office bombs — just like white ones!
Then as a follow-up, she tweeted:
Y'all sayin that im blaming ppl didnt read. It's NOT abt blame, it's abt awareness. That way we dont get in tired fights abt good intentions
— Constance Wu (@ConstanceWu) July 29, 2016
For the millionth time it's NOT abt blame. Not blaming Damon, the studio, the Chinese financiers. It's not about blame, It's about AWARENESS
— Constance Wu (@ConstanceWu) July 30, 2016
I don’t know what she’s talking about, Hollywood. I for one am looking forward to the Gandhi remake starring Matthew McConaughey as the Mahatma. I think casting Blake Lively as Aung San Suu Kyi is brilliant. I’m eagerly awaiting the film on Nobel laureate Muhammad Yunus starring Leonardo DiCaprio. I can’t wait for Chloe Moretz to play Malala Yousafzai in Malala’s life story – and I even think it’s a great idea for Chloe-as-Malala to be “saved” by Tom Hiddleston riding in on a horse. That way you can take away Malala’s agency too! These are excellent ideas!
Photos courtesy of WENN, Legendary.
Preach
I have no idea what plot device they will use to explain the presence of three white actors, but it will undoubtedly be completely inauthentic. I just don’t get why, in 2016, Hollywood thinks this is necessary.
@Megan …
Please read a summary of the film in my comment, number 6 below.
That summary doesnt explain what three white men are doing in positions of prominence so as to be the focal points in a story about the Great Wall, two thousand years ago.
This is the probably the pyramids all over again. White people cant imagine greatness emerging from other cultures while they were still hunting and gathering. If something is “inexplicable” then there must have been either aliens or magic involved. And definitely, Europeans. Even in China, 200 BC.
My guess is that they will use Romans as their way of explaining whites/ Matt Damon in the film.
The Roman empire existed roughly at the same time as the Han empire.
Further, the wall wasn’t built in one go or by the same empire. It was built in sections by various empires over several centuries, including the Han empire.
There is evidence that the Han Empire had some contact with the Romans. A Han official, Gan Ying, recorded impressions of the Roman empire, noting that their reach extended to India.
Read the summary. And it still does not require white actors to be in this film.
Correction, the Roman empire existed as early as 27BC, at the same time as several successive Empires in China. The Han empire seems to have been aware of the Romans going by the recordings of the official.
Selling this film as a sci-fi genre film neatly side-steps any need for historical accuracy since anything is possible in that genre.
I like you.
All I got is how in the hell is a wall going to keep dragons out, don’t they fly. 🙂
maybe this This changes token white guys.
So yes. She’s saying that, essentially, the actors playing the pivotal roles look nothing like their race? Culture? That’s basically the crux. And she’s correct. Where are these variety of actors I am sure are great and want this role?
This said, remember that James Bond is now being debated in regards to being African American. And the people saying the character wasn’t written African American.Still won’t matter to me.
The difference is, however, this is distinctly written for a certain culture.
Lastly…I truly do not GIVE A SYTE. Im waiting for the day NO one sees bloody color once and for all. What are we, 9 yrs old finger painting? Who cares.
Jesus.
I’m a Russian Jew with an Asian niece. Enough. We’re all one. Azzholes can be a separate race.
Idris Elba isn’t African American. He is British.
And if you must describe him in terms of ethnicity, then he is Sierra Leonean/Ghanian mix, and even that breaks down further to his tribal ethnicity in those countries.
Only USA blacks are African Americans, the rest of us are not.
This always does my head in! He’s BRITISH! Of African heritage!
African American is a census-type classification for a nation state. If we’re going with that way of describing people, then the British choices are Black British, Black African or Black Caribbean as per our census form. Idris would self-identify to whichever of the first two he feels best.
All movies are made with an audience in mind. If anyone is to blame for this, its us. There are some markets that won’t pay to see movies with black people. Its one of the reasons black people are removed from posters when movies screen overseas. They know that if they put black people on the posters, those audiences will skip the movie, leadng to a loss of revenue. But I guess its easier to point fingers at Damon or Hollywood, rather than looking within.
Yeah, but Matt Damon in my opinion is not even a good actor,they usually use one who gets a run for a while in every movie. He is not even good looking, at least pick a man would would be a leading man draw.
I heart Constance Wu!
+1
Me too!
I love her. She’s beautiful, and so well spoken. And she’s amazing on Fresh Off the Boat.
She makes that entire show. She’s also gorgeous.
She does make the entire show. I love her and her character so much.
Me too! 1.357 billion people in China and you can’t find a Chinese actor for the lead? Please!
More and more movie makers are starting to take Chinese movie goers into account since so many in China are now watching and paying for movies. I refuse to believe that this movie would make more money with Matt Damon as the lead. It just makes no sense.
I will not watch any more movies where they inappropriately put the white guy or gal as the lead. Gods of Egypt was the “straw that broke the camel’s back” for me. We all need to start boycotting these white-washing movies so Hollywood will stop!
Hollywood is trying to have it both ways – sell the movies in the west and in China. China is a huge market for the US film industry and so films that bring in Chinese characters or well known Chinese actors (even if the whole film is in English) will be successful in China and help the US film make tons of money. I have lived in China for the past two years and have seen this. HOWEVER I agree that a film made IN China ABOUT China could have put Chinese actors in more prominent roles in this movie. Yes, Matt Damon in the movie will put people in the seats in the North America and Europe and likely in China too. If the movie had only Chinese actors in all the main parts, I doubt it would do that well in North America and Europe (especially if it only had English subtitles instead of English dialogue). But there are many excellent actors in China (Asia) who could have been main characters along with Damon. Will I see it? Probably as I am working in China right now and a movie showing China would interest me. But I understand and agree with Wu’s point.
I believe one of the chinese actors in the movie is Andy Lau. He is a big big deal in Asia – A-list for sure. I’m sure he’s relegated to a supporting role here.
I’m pretty sure the Chinese financiers just dole out the money. They have no say as to who gets to star in the movie so the blame falls squarely on the producers.
I can’t believe they relegated Andy Lau to supporting status. There are SO MANY A list Chinese stars on here dumped to second and third fiddle that this is ridiculous. For example, Yang Mi (who’s one of the most in demand Chinese actresses currently Fan Bing Bing style) and Eddie Peng (another hot shot actor from Taiwan who’s super well known in China) are both in this, and I don’t see them mentioned anywhere. What a load of baloney.
(Just to clarify something: Andy Lau’s from Hong Kong. Us Hong Kongers have a distinct identity from China, and our cultural habits are also different than mainland China’s too. Please don’t get us confused and call us Chinese. It’s offensive, especially in light of Occupy Central and what the mainland Chinese government has been doing to the citizens of Hong Kong.)
Same. Her show (Fresh off the boat) and Blackish are proof that people WILL watch shows with all minority casts. Its doable but hollywood (movies) are so behind tv in terms of diversity. Its lazy as hell
And why TV is dominating right now. I think the only thing keeping HW afloat are franchises.
@Nicole. That is the word right there. They are so lazy to think outside the box. They want to keep on using the same tired & tried formula. Or maybe another franchise and remake.
Those are two of the funniest shows on right now! Theyre well cast and well written, unlike so much of the other schlock that’s just shy of a laugh track.
honk for more constance!
i dont like sit coms with children at all, but i watch her show because she is so freakin good
i wanna see her in everything
I read that this is the most expensive film ever shot in China..must be expecting big returns..I wonder how much of the big bill was Damon’s usual ginormous salary..
Combined with Bourne I wouldn’ t be surprised if he is the highest paid actor this year.
I hope it flops, just like the Egypt movie. It’s time for Hollywood to cut this B.S
It won’t flop. They used some really popular Chinese actors in it.
Why they didn’t just give those actors the main roles is the real question.
You do know this isn’t a hollywood production?
@suzanne actually, one of the production companies also produced Batman vs Superman. And Suicide Squad. And American Hustle. It’s a joint Chinese-Hollywood production.
@Suzanne …
I give up. No matter how many times we say it is ‘not’ a Hollywood production and was filmed in China, they’ll still ignore the fact.
Emma-
Just because it’s filmed in China doesn’t mean it’s not a Hollywood production. They produce, finance and shoot all over the world. And Damon himself is about as Hollywood as it gets
Amen.
Constance Wu: the hero we need, not the one we deserve
This is the general summary on the Internet about the film: “The Great Wall” is ‘Science Fiction’ film based upon a loose adaptation of a short story titled “The Great Wall of China” by Franz Kafka. It is an allegory to European isolationism and exclusion in spite of taking place in China during the Song Dynasty, with the enclosure and protection of Europe by a complex and growing system of walls, fences and systems of exclusion. Set in the Northern Song Dynasty, the story is about mysteries revolving around the Great Wall of China.
Matt Damon was filming “The Great Wall” back during Ben Affleck’s ‘Nanny Gate’ scandal, which is why he wasn’t in Los Angeles. Surprisingly, there were no cries of ‘white washing’ during filming in China.
That is some tomfoolery of an excuse. It is as if they bent over backwards to create a reason for white actors to be in this movie. It does perpetuate a particular idea or image. The common person watching this for entertainment still digests the message of a white savior, that these important historical milestones were succored by those of European descent. It becomes a subconscious and subversive message. We can do so much better.
@amunet ma’at, who wrote: “That is some tomfoolery of an excuse. It is as if they bent over backwards to create a reason for white actors to be in this movie. It does perpetuate a particular idea or image. The common person watching this for entertainment still digests the message of a white savior, that these important historical milestones were succored by those of European descent. It becomes a subconscious and subversive message. We can do so much better.”
“The Great Wall” is a ‘fantasy’ adventure film in a ‘Once upon a Time’ kind of way and is not intended to accurately depict Chinese history. The film’s vision is that of its Chinese Director, Yimou Zhang. If the ‘fantasy’ aspect is set forth in the film I doubt many people will take it literally.
I guess my first question should have been, has anyone here ever read Kafka? Much of his work was allegorical/symbolic and (when I was in school) was mandatory reading in school. My favorite Kafka short story was “The Metamorphosis” (1915), about a man who turns into a giant cockroach.
To be fair, they bent over backwards because they’re trying to make the first Hollywood-Chinese cinema tie-up. And if you’re still trying to appeal to China and America, well… People in China know who Matt Damon is. But I doubt most people in America know who Andy Lau is, even though he’s one of the biggest (and best) stars of this region.
Not that the whole premise isn’t racist as hell, but (Mr. Hollywood) Matt Damon was always going to be the main character. I also suspect it was always going to be made in China too; I’d bet good money that they’re getting a lot of subsidies for filming there. I just wish they had come up with a different plot altogether that wasn’t so blatantly dumb.
@ Emma
Hollywood whitewashes history in films and applies the word “Fantasy” to justify their actions. Doing so does not stop the subversive message, nor does it stop people from adopting these images subconsciously. It simply means Hollywood has a new label to help them perpetuate an insidious behavior. Just because POC co-sign this behavior, does not mean it is right. It just means that the have internalized these messages to a degree that instead of fighting against this hypocrisy they now support it. This film could and should have been made with all Asian cast. As Constance Wu stated, the excuse that it has Chinese backers is inexcusable, the excuse that this film will only sale with white actors as a lead is baffling.
@Amunet ma’at, who wrote: “Hollywood whitewashes history in films and applies the word “Fantasy” to justify their actions. Doing so does not stop the subversive message, nor does it stop people from adopting these images subconsciously. It simply means Hollywood has a new label to help them perpetuate an insidious behavior.”
When and where have ‘actual dragons’ been a part of any one nation’s history?? The film is about walls being built through Europe and China to keep out dragons. It is a ‘fantasy’ adventure film. There could very well be a reason why three Europeans are in this film, but none of us posting here will know that until the film has been released. The whole assumption here that white actors in this film are portraying characters of another race/culture instead of characters written specifically for their own heritage is premature. Based upon the film’s premise, is it not possible for those characters to be from European nations where walls are also being built for the same reason the Great Wall was built in China?
@Emma
My problem is not with casting Damon, my problem is the plot itself. Like I said up thread how does a wall keep out a dragon, they fly. 🙂
BTW I read Metamorphous as well, it was a good read. But for some reason I kept thinking about the movie ‘The Fly.”
@V4Real, who wrote: “My problem is not with casting Damon, my problem is the plot itself. Like I said up thread how does a wall keep out a dragon, they fly. :)”
(Shrugs) I guess a big ass wall is all they had during the time period in which the film is set.
@V4Real, who wrote: “BTW I read Metamorphous as well, it was a good read. But for some reason I kept thinking about the movie ‘The Fly.”
LOL! Holy Deus, Batgirl, you’re right! Now all I can think about is Jeff Goldblum’s skin peeling with more and more creepy-crawly things sticking out of his face and back during his transformation. Oooo, Mufasa! 🙂
@Emma
Umm, no I’m not making assumptions that Matt Damon is playing a different race/culture. I did not state that in any of my previous statements. Do not address me and then include your own assumptions of my statement to make your point. My problem is that studios often turn subject matter from other cultures into fantasy to justify having white main characters. Matt Damon is not playing a supporting role, he is a lead actor in this film. That is troublesome. I know what fantasy means and what elements makes a film fantasy. The heart of the problem is allowing a source material deemed as fantasy to make it easier to include white actors in dominate roles. I do not know how to make that any more clear. Kids and the average movie goer are not going to see this imagery and go, “hey I believe this is an allegory on…”. They just aren’t. When images that supports lies are more accessible than the truth you have confusion.
@V4Real …
I’ve watched the trailer at least three more times trying to figure out if those really ‘are’ dragons or some other kind of critter. Whatever it is, it is big and managed to get up to the top of the wall. So I’m going to coin it a ‘Mystery Critter’ until we can absolutely see what kind of critter it is.
The short story by Kafka only has Chinese characters? So what’s your point? In fact the whole point of the story is to concentrate on the Chinese people and their relationship to the emperor and them saving themselves from foreigners and creating an uniting purpose. European saviours have absolutely no place in Kafka’s story.
@Katja, who wrote: “The short story by Kafka only has Chinese characters? So what’s your point? In fact the whole point of the story is to concentrate on the Chinese people and their relationship to the emperor and them saving themselves from foreigners and creating an uniting purpose. European saviours have absolutely no place in Kafka’s story.”
Which is why they describe it as being ‘loosely based’ upon the Kafka short story, which was allegorical in nature. Did you watch the trailer? It appears that what China and Europe are attempting to keep out are dragons. Here is a link to IMDb’s “The Great Wall” webpage showcasing the film’s trailer:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2034800/?ref_=nv_sr_1
I did watch the trailer. Thank you. But it really doesn’t justify the amount of European characters. You tried to justify the white saviour aspect by saying Kafka wrote they are saved by Europeans. Now you say, oh, it isn’t Kafka. It is only inspired by it. Your arguments have nothing to do with the point of the discussion at all.
@Katja, who wrote: “I did watch the trailer. Thank you. But it really doesn’t justify the amount of European characters. You tried to justify the white saviour aspect by saying Kafka wrote they are saved by Europeans. Now you say, oh, it isn’t Kafka. It is only inspired by it. Your arguments have nothing to do with the point of the discussion at all.”
Wow. I never said in my original post that Franz Kafka wrote a short story where the Chinese were saved by Europeans–‘white saviors’ or otherwise. I said that Franz Kafka wrote a short story titled “The Great Wall of China” that was an allegory for European isolation. I also said that the film “The Great Wall” was ‘loosely’ based upon Kafka’s short story and that the film’s director may have visualized/interpreted the allegory as something else. Moreover, there are three (3) European characters in this film with a full cast of Chinese actors. I’m not trying to justify anything at all. I’m simply trying to insert pertinent facts into the discussion.
@Emma
But why did they choose that particular story? Of all stories about The Great Wall of China – real or fictional – apparently the only one worth turning into a film was the one starring white people. So apparently China isn’t interesting enough unless white people are involved?
You could do a sci-fi fantasy film in which Chris Evans, Hemsworth and Pine somehow turned out to be triplet Inca Emperors, and even put a disclaimer in the beggining saying none of that is supposed to represent reality. It still wont take away from the fact you are completely dismissing the chance to give minority actors a chance.
If this were an industry in which Viola Davis could play Abraham Lincoln as a demon slayer in feudal Japan, I wouldn’t see any problem with this movie being made. But that’s not the case. This is an industry that bends over backwards to favor white people and this movie is an example of it.
***
EDIT: I just noticed this is actually a Chinese production. That changes things a bit. Though I do think it’s important to point out the feelings Chinese people in China have about this, in no way nullify how an Asian-American should feel.
I like this a lot: “I do think it’s important to point out the feelings Chinese people in China have about this, in no way nullify how an Asian-American should feel.”
@Josefina …
Kafka’s short story was about European isolation. I’m assuming he used The Great Wall of China because it was built to keep out China’s enemies. It appears that the Director of this fantasy film (“Yimou Zhang”) took that allegory and ran with it. Watch the trailer and see exactly ‘what’ China and the rest of Europe (where in the film walls are also being built) are attempting to ‘keep out.’
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2034800/?ref_=nv_sr_1
This is not a loss for diversity. She is an Asian American who is understanding this from a minority American perspective.
This is a Chinese story made with Chinese money. The director, Zhang Yimou, is the most famous Chinese director. He wants to make Hollywood blockbusters; he wants to crossover from making movies for Chinese audiences to making movies for global–particularly American–audiences. Read interviews with him. It’s clear that he wants this movie marketed as a Hollywood blockbuster.
So he hired a big Hollywood star. Getting Hollywood stars is a big win for Chinese directors. It’s legitimacy in foreign markets.
This is not whitewashing. Chinese people will never mistake foreigners in a Chinese film as anything but foreigners. They aren’t intended to take the place of Chinese. Chinese people know their own history and there is no glorification of foreigners.
This is a win for diversity. A Chinese director making big Hollywood movies about China is a win: it brings Chinese history and Chinese storytelling to s global audience in a relatable and popular way. I don’t think this movie will do it–I think there are more cultural barriers to be bridged before Chinese directors can connect with American moviegoers.
But Constance Wu doesn’t know what she is talking about. She is American. Zhang Yimou hiring a Hollywood star is not the problem with Hollywood. She understands this from the perspective of an American who cannot conceive that all issues are not reducible to American ones. If she wants to take up the issue of race in China, she is going to need to learn a lot more about the country.
Oh, interesting. Thanks.
Weenie/Emma…
I have no words for you and your justification of total nonsense.
But Wu hit the nail right on the head.
The entire trailer reminded me of that Ask Rooney skit from the Chappelle Show, about The Last Samurai starring Tom Cruise.
He said he was going to make a movie called The Last N***a On Earth starring Tom Hanks lol.
Yep- and that’s pretty much all I have to say about that (because it’s f*****g crazy).
Many people are confused here. They are attributing topics to Constance that she has not talked about. She is not talking about diversity, or whitewashing. Those are separate, heavy topics. She is not blaming China. She is not telling China what to do with its money.
Rather, she is raising awareness about the problematic theme of white man savior. THAT’S IT. She’s not making a comment about diversity – yeah, it’s great that foreign filmmakers can make a global hit. Seriously, good for China. But that’s not related at all to her point.
Many racial issues are related, but they are not interchangeable. We need to be careful to lump all racial topics together. Constance is discussing racist themes, not diversity. Not the crossover success of another country.
(Aside: I’d also like to mention that China got criticized for its racist laundry detergent ad. It portrayed a black man as “dirty,” and when put through the wash, he came out “clean” and Chinese. It was only marketed to China, not America. It got a lot of criticism, and no one defended it by saying America thinks it is the center of the universe, that China isn’t responsible for America’s problems. In an increasingly globalized world, it wouldn’t hurt to be more aware.)
I get what you are saying, but I still agree with Constance’s overall point. I can understand why they wanted a western movie star to carry the movie, but why not hire an Asian American actor?I know people will say that there aren’t any Asian American actors who are bankable, like Matt Damon, but that seems like a symptom of a larger problem. The fact that there aren’t any Asian American movie stars is a sad reality. Hollywood needs to give POC actors a chance, so that more of them can become bankable stars in their own right.
If they want a foreigner, then they want someone who looks foreign. Not someone who looks like them, but is a native English speaker.
Don’t get me wrong, there is racism in China. But it is in an entirely different context and it has to be respected as such. It is not fair to insist that everyone else has to be responsible for America’s (Hollywood’s) problems.
Constance is doing what she says people do to her (POC): efface her story by putting a different face on it. Well, she is effacing the Chinese story by painting it with an American brush.
Greenieweenie says:
August 1, 2016 at 10:08 am
It is not fair to insist that everyone else has to be responsible for America’s (Hollywood’s) problems.
This so much this.
Yes, thank you for that, there was a lot I didn’t know and hadn’t thought about. I have to say though, ever since being transfixed and devastated by Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, I have been open to the idea of Chinese cinema.
I was going to bring up Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon too. A well made, internationally marketted Chinese film can break into Western markets. This is proven not just by that movie but by the many B action movies that succeeded in the 1970s. Of course once Hollywood realised the potential of those movies, they cut out the Asian martial artists and replaced them with Van Damme and Chuck Norris and massacred the genre.
Anyways, as Constance says, if a model fails just once, the powers that be resort to the old White Savior narrative. Last Samurai, anybody? Disgusting.
To be fair to Last Samurai, Watanabe was the last samurai. Although it was marketed as if Tom Cruise had the title role.
That is true Adrien and Watanabe was the mythical savior, Cruise was the damaged soul who was saved by Watanabe. The Samurai did need him to help them fight, but only because western weapons and warfare had been brought in to attack them. Ultimately Cruise’s character, decorated American hero, rejects the west and lives as a Samurai. I think it actually did a good job of using a western leading man to help increase my interest in Japanese culture and my awareness of Japanese acting talent. It certainly left me with a long lasting crush on Watanabe.
Ang Lee made films that were successful internationally without using big Hollywood stars and some are in the Mandarin language. It can be done.
This is not the same thing. There is a cultural difference between Taiwan, Hong Kong, and mainland China. I assume from Ang Lee’s name that he is Taiwanese. This is not the same as Zhang Yimou, who did ten years in the countryside during the Cultural Revolution. This is a developmental issue more than anything else. Mainland China has had much less contact with western culture, and cultural barriers are more fixed. But China is serious about developing a major film industry. The problem is not a matter of skill or artistry but of connecting with international audiences in the way that American popular culture does. There are several reasons why it is difficult: China does not study literature the same way Western cultures do, and they do not have as much freedom to tell stories how they wish (whether explicit or implicit).. But with more time and familiarity, odds are they will develop a big film industry to rival Europe and America.
But this is a win for China. I love seeing a Chinese director gradually breaking into Hollywood this way. Zhang Yimou is the outsider and the minority–both ethnically/culturally but also politically. He can hire whomever he likes to tell his story. He is not representative of the problem with Hollywood. He is the solution. Constance Wu should be cheering for this, but she doesn’t know enough about China to appreciate the moment.
Some of Ang Lee’s pictures were sold as indies (Eat Drink Man Woman, The Banquet, even Crouching Tiger) so I don’t think you can compare that to his latter, Hollywood financed films (Brokeback, Sense & Sensibility). A lot of his earlier films were financed solely in Taiwan.
Exactly, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was an international co-production between companies in 4 regions: the Chinese company China Film Co-Production Corporation; the American companies Columbia Pictures Film Production Asia, Sony Pictures Classics and Good Machine; the Hong Kong company EDKO Film; and the Taiwanese Zoom Hunt International Productions Company, Ltd. Ang Lee is actually Chinese as he was born in China, but his parents had to flee the Communists during the civil war. He is not Taiwanese and has never identified as such. It seems that people here want to bend over backwards to justify why Matt Damon has to be the star of a Chinese film or why Tilda Swinton has to play the Ancient One, or why Angelina Jolie can play an Afro-Chinese-Cuban, or why Jake Gyllenhaal can become Persian, ect., ect.
That’s an interesting point and I get what you’re saying. The fact that Chinese studios are financing this endeavor will be interesting. My only hope is that they won’t get themselves “locked” into this formula (either by choice or necessity).
I don’t agree with you. I worked in film for years and know for a fact that the director in hollywood doesn’t really have a choice on the story or who gets cast. Directors are basically given 3 or 4 actors for a role (ex: Damon, mccaunaughey, dicaprio and Pitt) and has to choose from the short list. No auditions for big roles in movies like this. They are at the mercy of the executives (old white guys) who make all the decisions. Sure, the director was probably grateful to be able to direct a Hollywood film, but if he had a choice, he wouldnt make a movie about the great Wall being saved or whatever from white dudes. Sad thing too is that if this bombs, this director will not be given a chance to direct a Hollywood film again.
This movie is made from Chinese money. Not Hollywood money. China doesn’t need Hollywood money. Hollywood needs Chinese money.
@Greeniweenie The film is an American and Chinese co-production. It is not completely financed by Chinese money.
BTW, I was reading about the film on deadline.com, and apparently, a white American director, Ed Zwick was once attached to direct the film, before Zhang Yimou was hired. I’m glad that a Chinese director got the opportunity to direct it, but it’s not as if Zhang Yimou developed the project himself and was in charge of making the big decisions.
@Goldie, Ok, I will take time to explain it since this story bothers me and I would rather comment here than on The Guardian. I do not know the specifics of this film but I know how business works in China.
Zhang Yimou is not just some Chinese director. He directed the opening ceremony of China’s Olympic Games. I don’t think I’m wrong to say he is China’s Steven Spielberg. This movie is ostensibly made in Beijing. Chinese companies can partner with foreign ones, but they always hold the controlling stake. So this might be a co-production with an American firm but the Chinese one is making the decisions. They probably paid the US company a lot of money to consult on the film. But there is no way that Zhang Yimou did not control this from start to finish.
@Goldie, what I mean is once Zhang Yimou was involved, there is no way he did not have control over it. That is the kind of position he would have in any film.
What Greenieweenie said.
“Chinese companies can partner with foreign ones, but they always hold the controlling stake. So this might be a co-production with an American firm but the Chinese one is making the decisions”
See, after reading about the production, I got the opposite impression. It seems to me that the film was primarily produced by an American company, and the Chinese partners were the ones that were brought in as consultants.
I have no doubt that Zhang Yimou is a brilliant director, and that he approved Damon’s casting. But the idea that the Chinese investors had a controlling interest in the film is false, I think.
I find this comment incredibly condescending and problematic. Constance Wu – who has always been well-informed – doesn’t know what she is talking about? Seriously? “She is an Asian American who is understanding this from a minority American perspective.” Um, okay. You’re actually discounting a minority American’s perspective on diversity. I can’t. What.
Did you even read her comment? Her point clearly went over your head, or you chose to ignore it. You proclaim, “This is not whitewashing,” but that is not Constance’s point. She never once mentions whitewashing. Nor does she make a statement about diversity. What, as soon as a minority opens her mouth, you assume she’s complaining about diversity and whitewashing? THAT IS NOT HER POINT.
Her point is an important one. She detests the notion that white people are superior to POC – that POC need the white man to save them. She says, “Well excuse me for caring about the images that little girls see, and what that implies to them about their limitations or possibilities. If you know a kid, you should care too.”
When I was young, my Asian friends and I were so excited when The Last Sumarai trailer came out. A big Hollywood movie about Asians? With people that look like us? We all, of course, watched it. Young, impressionable, Asian children ecstatic to finally see people that looked like us on film. And what did we see? Tom Cruise training the Imperial Japanese Army. And at the end, the white man being the hero, the savior.
Constance is absolutely correct, we need to care about the images that little girls see, and what that implies to them about their limitations or possibilities. 10 years ago, Hollywood had Tom Cruise save Japan. Now, Matt Damon is saving China. I’ll be skipping this movie.
She also points out that asian film companies and other POC’s do this w/ the white savior complex-so crying out that it’s financed by Chinese backers and shot in China misses her point entirely.
Missy. Maybe read again. What Greenieweenie is saying is that a movie backed by Chinese funding and made by a Chinese director will take into account Chinese sensibilities more than American ones. While Wu’s arguments are very relevant for the diversity discourse in the US, they are also exactly that: relevant (mostly) for the diversity discourse in the US. It is kind of funny for an American (of whatever minority) to tell the Chinese how to make their movies correctly. Incredibly patronizing
@ Missy
Wu says ‘when you consistently make movies like this’ which comes across as a personal critique to Zhang Yimou it seems, and that would indeed be incorrect since this is only the second project where he works with white actors. Yimou has several international successful movies to his name that are with complete Asian casts (actors from Hong Kong, Japan, China, Taiwan, and more) like Hero, House of Flying Daggers and Curse of the Golden Flower.
I think that is what Greenieweenie is talking about.
Maybe you’re both right. From your comments I assume you’re American, so you too have an American perspective. As an American, the casting is highly problematic and insulting, further highlighting the lack of Asian-American movie stars. It’s not even intentional at this point, it’s a formula that studios just carry on carrying on with. I agree this is a big problem and we need to quit with the casting of white guys for everything and everyone.
But this film is not an American film. It’s being made by a Chinese with “old rich Chinese men” as the ones calling the shots. Their motivations and cultural sensibilities are different from ours. The fact is that big American movie stars are accepted as big international stars while actors (even if they’re white) from other countries are not, unless they work heavily in American films. The choice to hire American actors comes from that, they want big stars who are big stars everywhere, not just in China.
Which brings us back to the problem that our big stars are all a bunch of white guys. But that doesn’t mean that the Chinese are somehow “doing it wrong” by deciding to cast them. As Americans, we can’t say how Chinese audiences will take it, and we can’t say what messages they will internalize. The film is being made from a Chinese perspective, not an American one. Our cultures are different, and assuming that what applies to Americans (which you and Wu are very right about) will apply to Chinese audiences.
.
@Missy
First of all I think its funny you begin this comment by accusing someone of being condescending.
When Weenie pointed out Wu’s talking as an Asian-American, I took it as her saying she’s not talking as an actual Chinese person from China. To those Chinese people this movie is a big win – it’s a blockbuster Chinese production on the same level as a Hollywood movie. The problems with representation and Wu’s points may still be applicable, but I think it’s quite patronizing to tell Chinese people how to make their movies. Chinese aren’t a minority in China, and I don’t think they have any moral obligation to represent Chinese people elsewhere.
I think it’s very condescending from American people to tell others how they are supposed to feel about things. The USA is not the center of the world. Their perspective about this is not “The” valid perspective.
@Josefina Is it funny? “But Constance Wu doesn’t know what she is talking about. She is American,” and, “Constance Wu should be cheering for this, but she doesn’t know enough about China to appreciate the moment” are pretty condescending comments.
And yes, I will become heated when a valid point (problematic theme of white savior for minority-Americans) is dismissed because this movie is great for China. I will become heated when again and again, a valid point from a minority perspective is dismissed because a larger population has a different one.
@Missy
And her points are not invalid. The thing is, it’s rather moot to talk about representation in Hollywood when this is not a Hollywood production. Americans have this tendency to put themselves at the center of the world, and I think it’s rather patronizing when they tell people outside of their borders how they are supposed to feel about stuff.
I’m NOT saying that’s the case with Wu at all, but it is the case with some comments I see here.
@Josefina It’s not a moot point at all. (Trust me, I’m a lawyer ;).) In fact, this is the perfect time to discuss representation in Hollywood, and I’m glad that a Chinese-Hollywood movie is able to start this discussion. Hollywood, Matt Damon, Chinese money – finally, we (Asian-Americans) can be somewhat included in a hot gossip topic.
But even now, we’re trying to be excluded from the conversation because, what, we don’t belong in it? This is an Asian production marketed to America, and Asian-Americans don’t really get to comment? We don’t understand?
People say Americans think that they’re the center of the universe. OK, while that may be true for some Americans, that is NEVER the case for Asian-Americans. Asian-Americans make up 5% of the US population. The 5% that will likely have an identity crisis because they identify as both Asian and American, and never just Asian or American. So it is important for people like Constance to bring up problematic racial themes whenever possible.
Wow, you really talked in circles to make this week okay.
A ‘win’ for diversity huh?
Yup, bet all those lucky lucky Chinese a toe and the director will absolutely not be relegated to the small print and 3rd tier interviews while the media gives Matt and fellow white crew a tongue bath of adoration. Not like we haven’t seen this before…
*seem not week
*actors not a toe
Sorry, I don’t think you understand. But you don’t have the perspective of someone from China.
@Greenie
So basically no one, including Chinese Americans, Asian Americans or anyone has the right to comment on what has been a repeated trend in financing movies from foreign countries, using foreign source material, making white actors the stars and then using that method of ‘diversity’ to ensure Asian actors never rise to enough prominance to not have to play second fiddle to Matt Damon in a movie called The Great Wall unless they’re from China?
SERIOUSLY?
That is the weakest defense! It’s not even a defense it’s just a series of excuses for why this is good because at least the Chinese director got thrown a bone. Well yay for him, not like we don’t have a national history of token directors, actors, and awards to show us this style of ‘breaking through’ leads nowhere for directors or actors.
I think having a movie made by Chinese people marketed as an international blockbuster is good for diversity. 99.9% of those movies are made by American people. That’s not diverse at all.
American minorities can feel however they want about this but please don’t act like your perspective is the only one that matters. The fact the American industry has problems with representation has nothing to do with what a Chinese production should do with it’s money. This is a Chinese movie, made by Chinese people, made (mainly) for Chinese people in China.
“not like we don’t have a national history of token directors, actors, and awards to show us this style of ‘breaking through’ leads nowhere for directors or actors.”
“We”. This may come as a shocker to some users here, but there’s more countries in the world apart from the USA, and they have problems of their own. They don’t have to care about American problems.
“The Chinese director got thrown a bone” He directed the effin olympic ceremony. I think there’s some subconcious racism in you assuming he’s some random dude with no agency in this.
Even if this is a Chinese production, it’s being marketed to Americans. Why can’t Damon be the bad guy? No, he is the white savior. Audiences in china will see it as science fiction, americans will probably take it as historical reality. It’s amazing how quickly racism is dismissed when it’s felt by an Asian American. Once again, white people telling an Asian American it’s not racist and they shouldn’t feel offended because it’s “good intentions” or the we’re (white people) not racist because it’s the poc who made the decision. Also, americans do not study literature either. You think the majority of Americans will take it as science fiction? Most will take as historical fact. This is why there is a majority of white americans trying to “make America great again” which basically means give power back to the whites
@Side-Eye
It’s a win for diversity from a global perspective, in that a major Chinese director is doing a crossover film.
That said, this film’s casting and premise is problematic from the American perspective, and specifically the Asian American perspective. The Chinese filmmakers probably should have had Asian Americans at the table consulting them, but I don’t think that happened, unfortunately. I think it’s troubling that Matt Damon agreed to be in this, but again, I have a feeling he doesn’t have Asian Americans consulting him.
So everyone’s entitled to their own opinion, but the Chinese don’t care about Asian Americans’ perspectives. Sorry, but that’s the truth.
And earlier, I wrote that had there been an Asian American superstar that perhaps s/he could’ve been cast in the Matt Damon role, but re-thinking it, I’m not sure that would’ve played well to the mainland Chinese audience. Asia-born Asians have a snobby attitude toward Americanized/foreignized Asians, and I’m not sure that an Asian-American superstar could work unless s/he could speak flawlessly in the native language. I can’t think of any Asian-American actors of note who can do that, including Constance Wu. If they can speak flawlessly, they don’t really built a career in America. They move back to China/Korea/wherever and build a career there.
I wonder if other cultures have the same tension between American-born vs. native-country-born.
This isn’t a trend in China. This movie isn’t financed *from* a foreign country. It was made in China. By Chinese people. With Chinese money. The stars in this movie are well-known Chinese stars. The fact that an American company was hired shows the movie is a strategic move to penetrate int’l (US) market. It is a Chinese product, made partly for USA via several token white actors to attract American audiences. Did China misread that? Because Hollywood, since its inception, has been casting white males as leads. So China’s wrong for thinking this is the way to the American market?
The Chinese director didn’t get thrown a bone. That is so patronizing. You don’t get it. He is the star. He doesn’t need a bone.
Honestly, that is so funny. It’s like saying Scorsese or Coppola got thrown a bone. Okay. I bet they really have to beg to get the movies they want made.
@josefina
Hear hear!
@Josefina American minorities can feel however they want about this but please don’t act like your perspective is the only one that matters.” My. God. I think you got that reversed.
An American minority commented on the theme of white savior in Hollywood. Greenie and others are saying she doesn’t know what she is talking about. Asian-American perspectives are routinely ignored.
If this was truly a Chinese movie made for Chinese people in China, Asian-Americans wouldn’t take such issue. But it’s not. It’s being advertised to the American market, and that market includes Asian-Americans. God forbid we provide a critique on the matter.
@Josefina, Greenieweenie’s, et al: Thanks, I had no idea there were other countries in the world. Totally new information.
Guess no one has informed Constance yet that as an American, she is automatically stupid, ignorant, wrong about everything, and that its verboten for her to have an opinion about anything that happens outside of the US.
As popup said: It’s a win for diversity from a global perspective.
This movie is marketed to be a GLOBAL blockbuster. And for that it has to attract people everywhere, which is more probable if you have a Hollywood superstar and probably a US distributor which will make the movie to open in more screens.
So, they are ensuring that a Chinese movie, made by Chinese people including one of China’s biggest directors, which beside of the Hollywood leads also casted Chinese stars, is going to be watch everywhere around the world.
Starkiller – they’re not saying that! They are saying that American problems are not necessarily world problems. And the significance of a decision in the US may have an entirely different significance elsewhere.
I have no idea about this film in particular, but they seem knowledgeable.
When someone with understanding of a context you don’t understand/have not lived tries to be informative, the best thing to do is reflect and ask yourself if your opinion is coming from an ethnocentric place and could therefore be wrong – IN THAT CONTEXT.
One would hope that Wu herself, as the thoughtful, intelligent person everyone is saying she is, would do just that if presented with the context and information Greenieweenie et al are providing here.
Blinkers are not helpful.
@Starkiller
I’ve never said Wu was stupid or that being wrong about everything was inherent to Americans. I just said they like to position themselves in the center of the world and think of their problems as global issues – when they are not.
@Missy
I already said countless times Asian Americans can feel however they want about this. But Weenie’s right this movie is a big win for the Chinese movie industry. Americans like to think diversity means having people of diverse races lead their movies. My concept of diversity would mean living in a world where Americans didnt monopolize the whole entertainment industry.
AKA, I think in this particular case, in this particular movie, the whole subject of representation is a lot more complex than just white people being racist. Pointing at it and saying “nope, wrong!” dismisses the great step forward this is for global filmmaking. Personally, I think Chinese people directing a white lead is A LOT more meaningful than having white people direct a minority.
So to make things clear: I’m not saying Wu’s wrong or that her point is invalid. I just think this movie is in a completely different realm from Bale’s Egypt disaster and all the other countless examples Hollywood has provided, because THIS IS NOT HOLLYWOOD, and that they should be analyzed in a different light.
Really interesting perspective. Like it is more of an outsider (with the same position of power and money) and not a minority thing.
Yes, exactly. And let me just point out for the whole thread: China is a country that went insane trying to erase the effects of white imperialism on its culture. Constance Wu did not experience this. She does not know what Chinese audiences are conditioned to see, and like I said–they are not conditioned to see a white savior. Also, for some strange reason, Kafka is very popular in China.
I really think if a lot of you understood how you are taking the perspective of the oppressor–not the oppressed–you would think differently.
(Some foreign books seem to randomly take off in China and for some reason Kafka, Metamorphosis, is one. So actually I am not totally surprised to read this movie is based on a Kafka story or something).
Yes, I see that. Thank you for the context Greenie.
I find this news interesting, mostly because all of us who are not from the US (I’m Mexican), have different perspectives about who we are and how we want to be percieved, which is rarely how the US portray us. Now they are also telling us foreigners, how to feel about our representations.
I also agree with you that while we can have a sensible opinion about a certain issue in another country, is impossible to understand it completely if one doesn’t live and experience that place (I can relate to this, because people often criticize my country without any real approach). In the end it is all about a context which people can only get by really being inmersed in that certain culture.
PREACH!
Non asian who are not in Asia doesnt get it. And apparantly so does Asian who arent in Asia.
Talking about “white saviour”. We dont need white people (or whoever live in a white people country) to save us from mis representation from OUR OWN movie. Pffft. We’ve been represented quite well tyvm. And Zhang zhimou is a great respected award winning director. He doesnt need white actors to sell his movies.
“And Zhang zhimou is a great respected award winning director. He doesnt need white actors to sell his movies.” >>>> Isn’t this the OPPOSITE of what “Greenieweenie” said? They basically stated that Zhang is using Matt Damon to market to a larger audience? And to break into the international market?
I’m all for Hollywood opening up to different cultures and perspectives. It’s a brilliant move for Yimou to cast America’s male sweetheart, Matt Damon. He is pandering to the American audience, as he should do if he wants to cross over. I’m sure China will be proud of him, and it seems you are as well. But Constance is Chinese-American, so no, she shouldn’t be cheering for this.
Constance still has the right to decry the theme of white savior in Hollywood, even if the director is Chinese. And it’s important that she does. Constance Wu is speaking on behalf of the 5% of Asian-Americans living in America. The 5% that will likely have an identity crisis because they identify as both Asian and American, and never just Asian or American. They don’t live in China, they’re not exposed to Chinese film, they don’t have Chinese directors already telling their stories. Instead, they live in America, where Hollywood is their storyteller. They rarely see themselves in films, and the really popular “Asian movies” are the ones where Tom Cruise, or Matt Damon are the heroes.
So, thank you Constance, for speaking up for the 5% that are routinely ignored and discounted.
“This is a win for diversity. A Chinese director making big Hollywood movies about China is a win: it brings Chinese history and Chinese storytelling to s global audience in a relatable and popular way.”
You actually just proved Constance’s and many POC’s points. So in order for non-Chinese people to relate to a character in a Chinese movie they have to be White? Funny how POC’s have no problems relating to a character of another race. There are many shows lead my PIC’s that White people have no problems relating to because guess what? We are not aliens, we eat? Drink, poop and fall in love just like Whites.
It is further insulting to suggest that the only way Whited will learn about Chinese history is through a mythological movie set in China and again lead by White people. It continued to be proven time and time again that a well made and marketed movie with POC or foreigners can bea hit.
So yes in summary the brainwashing of only a White lead can be relatable or can get others to be interested in POC stories has been successful as you just proved.
Apologies for the multiple typos. I was stuck in traffic this morning while typing fast on my phone but didn’t have time to correct the auto-correct. Reading all the new very intelligent posts I still stand by mine. The purpose of this film is to break into Holywood. You don’t a White Male to do that. It again repeats the belief that White=universal. Non-white=niche market.
+1 @greenieweenie
As a 1.5 generation Asian American myself, I agree with a lot of what you’re saying. I have a lot of affection for Constance Wu and usually agree with most everything she says, but I’m finding her critique somewhat problematic in this case. The fact that it’s a Chinese-made, Chinese-backed film IS a huge factor here. The Chinese don’t have a problem with representation in their own films. They have their own major movie business with their own huge homegrown stars, a few of whom are cast in this film with top billing. And if you think the Chinese don’t have pride in their own culture and ethnicity, check your assumptions because they are among the MOST proud people in the world. See exhibit A: the Beijing Olympics opening ceremony – a glittering example of cultural pride – orchestrated by Zhang Yimou, the same director who is responsible for The Great Wall.
They wanted to cast someone in the Matt Damon role for his global appeal (the fact that they cast only white males in the non-Chinese roles is a more legitimate critique, in my mind, and I think this film’s plot sounds stupid, but anyway…). Could they have “tried harder” by casting an Asian American superstar in the Matt Damon role? Probably, but a) the Chinese don’t have the same problem with representation as Asian Americans do and b) no such entity exists, which is the sad thing. I wish the American film industry would do a better job to promote the John Chos of this world so that he could be a global superstar, but they aren’t there yet. If anything, the American film industry, not the Chinese one, should be lambasted here for not doing more.
Ultimately, I’m glad that Constance spoke out about this film, even if I don’t back her 100% in this case. She’s causing a furor and conversation. I just hope this doesn’t bite her in the ass for her own career.
@popup “If anything, the American film industry, not the Chinese one, should be lambasted here for not doing more.” Exactly. I almost feel bad for Zhang Yimou (although it’s hard to feel sympathy for the rich and famous) since he’s clearly hoping this is his moment and the advance press turns into some American actor giving him a hard time over his casting like he’s somehow representative of Hollywood ills when it’s difficult to see how he could be any further away.
Not in response to greenie. Just a general observation about the lack of asian american actors for both markets. Godfrey Gao is asian canadian who went back to Taiwan and became a star. He is sexy and does not have an accent. There are many asian americans and Canadians who go overseas to act and sing. They usually are bi-lingual. Another person is Daniel Wu from into the badlands. There are already asian americans who can cross over but Hollywood does not even consider them. Much like John Cho. Also, Andy Lau is one of the best actors ever. Damon is like Sharknado compared to Lau. Yeah, the Departed is a copy of the vastly superior Infernal Affairs
@imnotwhite
Andy Lau is in this movie
@Imnotwhite – don’t forget Donnie Yen (US). Not only actors but singers too. Sally Yeh (Canadian), George Lam (US), Coco Lee (US). A lot migrate back to Asia and hit it big because they can’t do it here.
I find this comment very interesting: “he wants to crossover from making movies for Chinese audiences to making movies for global–particularly American–audiences.” I saw Red Sorghum, Raise the Red Lantern, Ju Dou, To Live and Hero in NYC, and I’m African American. I’ve been aware of Zhang Yimou for awhile. I didn’t need to see Matt Damon or any other Hollywood star. I saw several of his films because of the star power of the fantastic Gong Li.
@st – You and approximately 5% of Americans may have seen those films in art house releases or on Netflix. I have seen those movies, too. They are amazing, and I think Yimou’s films need to be seen more outside of China. This is Zhang Yimou’s play to get more audience share in America and beyond via a big-name star like Damon.
Hopefully those asian american children that constance wu so worry about would also check out the asian movies catalogue so they wont need to find representation in hollywood america movies. I mean its 2016. Jebus.
I think what he is referring to is a massive audience. His other films were indies that appealed to a smaller crowd. He wants across the board appeal like Spielberg.
@Yep Yum – so true. When I was growing up, we watched movies and tv from Hong Kong. It definitely helps if your folks raised you bilingual so you can understand the language. Those Hong Kong actors are who we looked up to. Not necessarily being played on the US screens and tv.
@YupYepYam, That’s hypocritical. Earlier you said about this movie, “Non asian who are not in Asia doesnt get it. And apparantly so does Asian who arent in Asia.”
Okay, and you, as an Asian in Asia, don’t get the problem of representation in film. Checking out the Asian movies catalogue isn’t the solution.
Greenieweenie and popup – thank you for reminding us not to make ethnocentric assumptions. Very illuminating comments. (And I’m not even American!)
I agree with this–that it’s important not to reduce every issue in the world to an American/US perspective.
But it’s also important not to downplay the effect this casting choice has on Asian-Americans.
Chinese national in China here. Saw the trailer while on youtube today, I’m sure it’ll be beautifully shot gorgeous cinematography every screen to die-for and utter crap.
Looking on douban (a popular Chinese review site) where there are over 400 comments already, at least 50% of the posters are predicting flops. Many take issue with the casting, though most because of the many young idol actors (next to nil acting skills but massive fan base and $$) and not so much the white washing Americans see. Not sure who made the casting decision, but I honestly think the inclusion of Damon and such was in an effort, right or wrong, to appeal to both audiences. Zhang will likely be surprised by Wu’s reaction. Chalk it up to cultural differences.
Also, having one or a few Hollywood actor(s) star in an other wise completely Chinese movie is not really new. Christian Bale was in Zhang Yimou’s Flowers of War (金陵十三钗), Nicholas Cage in the Outcast (白幽灵传奇), Adrien Brody and John Cusack in Dragon Blade (天将雄师), etc. Some of these films’ script and plot are really dumb, and Zhang’s Flowers of War, a movie about the Nanjing Massacre was controversial for its over commercialized portrayal, still the involvement of western and particularly Hollywood stars is a trend in Chinese big budget films.
For Zhang, it’s no secret that he want’s to make big commercial block busters in China and the US. I second Greenie’s point that for him and to a large extant the Chinese film industry, the ability to make a Hollywood movie and pull A-lister stars is seen as a major validation, they probably never considered it would be seen as white washing.
Terribly long winded I know, just wanted to offer some background and one Chinese Chinese view. On the other hand, I totally get Wu’s point and do support her fight for more diversity in American film and TV industries.
GreenieWeenie–Thank you. I was wondering whether I could safely mention this myself, but you said it better than I would!
“She understands this from the perspective of an American who cannot conceive that all issues are not reducible to American ones.”
Thank you for all your comments on this topic, Greenieweenie. I saw this story covered on a different site over the weekend and at first I assumed it was a standard Hollywood production. When I discovered it was a Zhang Yimou film I was kind of overwhelmed by how absurd Wu’s remarks are in context. I’m slightly alarmed by the possibility that she doesn’t know who he is. You want to see a movie with Chinese heroes, he’s made plenty of them already! One of them is even conveniently titled “Hero.”
I think you nailed the problem, with the difficulty Americans have truly letting go of an American-centric perspective. This is increasingly becoming a problem in how we have conversations about increasing diversity in US film. (See all the Americans getting angry that Suffragette, a movie set in England, did not adequately represent the contributions of black women in America.) It’s incredibly useful for non-Americans to call us out on this. So thanks for fighting the good fight!
This conversation is really informative! Thanks all.
If this is a Chinese film, made by Chinese money, with a Chinese director- why the need for white actors at all?
The reason they need Hollywood actors is that this movie is aimed at an international audience.
Therefore the Chinese Money, Directors etc should have thought about the international implications of the storyline. Basically the White guy saves China and high jacks the origins of one the worlds grandest monuments.
And you can say why should the Chinese money, director care about the message this movie is putting out to the international audience.
The answer is that they absolutely have a duty, as people in a position of influence, (with their money and speilberg like prestige) to try and show that POC do not and have not needed white people to save them.
They also don’t need white people to sell their movies.
China like Hollywood needs to stop thinking about the bottom line. It needs to take responsibility for the messages that films like this deliver. It needs to accept that there are other ways to sell movies.
The film world can be so dispiriting. Even Netflix managed to make Marco Polo. Mind you, that got panned, didn’t it? I thought it was okay – cheesy, but no more cheesy than all the whitewashed films that get made (and reviewed better).
Marco Polo actually has less of a white savior complex than I was expecting…honestly, if they cut out his character you wouldt notice because he is that insignificant. the actor also sucks but Benedict Wong is amazing in the show so I want it to do well
I was always bummed Marco Polo got panned. They didn’t succumb to the white savior bullshit, and they had one hell of a diverse cast. And there were cheesy moments, but everybody on that roster acted their asses off. For all its faults, I wish it got more applause.
Exactly. I watched it because one of my boys loves all those historical epics. And yes, it was a bit cheesy, but cheesy historical films are a popular genre and I thought it stood up to all that output well. Casting wasn’t whitewashed and Polo himself wasn’t a white saviour; just one element of an ensemble cast with multiple plot lines.
I don’t really understand why it was critically reviled. It was quite popcorn-y, but so is almost everything else in that genre. But, as you guys say, did very well avoiding the usual pitfalls.
I was wondering if anyone was going to mention Marco Polo, because I really don’t understand why it wasn’t more successful. (No idea how Netflix would measure success for its show, but the comments I have seen online and the critics were disappointing.) I loved it – just watching the second season now.
Other than Marco, all the rest of the cast is Asian and I thought it did a fabulous job of featuring great actors. Was the show perfect? No, but what show is? I thought it was great, and to me it proved that you don’t need to whitewash a story to make it compelling or interesting. I would love a third season although I don’t think that’s happening. To everyone who justly complains about HW not using diverse casts, particularly when the story requires diversity, watch Marco Polo if you haven’t already. (And yes, it may not be 100% historically accurate – most historical shows are not… but I still developed a deeper understanding of the period from a different perspective of my own, Euro-centric one.)
Sorry, Damon…
Everytime I see you, I think about Effie Brown. And this particular move reaffirms everything I thought back then to.
I think of Team America. Either way, not a good look.
I love Team America. A friend of mine is quite anti-American and Team America is my first line of attack; you know, if Americans can make that film and take the p*ss out of themselves that brilliantly, then they can’t all be that bad. Ridiculing our own country is a national past time for us Brits and we respect it in others.
Me too. I always associate Alec Baldwin with that, too.
Me too!! And, by the way, I love Constance Wy and how brave she is!
You just know Effie somewhere rolling her eyes good about this one.
Damon does nothing for me, at all.
I’ve been hearing for years that chinese and middle eastern film financiers ONLY want to see white faces and blue eyes in the films that they back. You mix that with the inherent racism of Hollywood? You get shit like this.
In other news I love how Constance Wu does not give a fuck. ❤
She does seem amazing. I am only hearing about her now. What a tragedy!
*applause*
The white saviour – yup..we were wandering about the Americans lost and naked without a compass..didn’t even have the freaking wheel..until those white saviors showed up and taught us how to till the land and diminish our women. Please…
Frankly these movies annoy the hell out of me..Avatar, The Last Samuria, Dances with Wolves, Dangerous Minds, The Help, The Blind Side, Thunderheart well Val Kilmer was Metis, but he was ashamed of his First Nations father.. the Magnificent Seven, the list goes on and on..we have our own heroes…but if a film was made they would be saved by a white person..or a white person would influence their actions..or they would be make the role into a white person’s role..by giving their back history a story of abandonment or rescue when they were children i.e. Mary McDonnell..Tarzan..it’s all be done before time for actual stories..a real heroes who are not white. I loved the internet spoof from the artist who photoshoped John Cho Into major movie posters to protest whitewashing..because John Cho could have been in each of those roles and we would have watched the movies and not noticed his ethnicity as it did not have a baring on the role..just a story with a good actor who happened not to be white…not that anyone would have noticed.
To be fair, MAGNIFICENT SEVEN(1960) is actually a remake of an earlier japanese film SEVEN SAMURAI(1954) so doesn’t belong in your rant.
….but otherwise, carry on.
But Magnificent Seven is the perfect example. They took a well received film by one of the greatest directors of all time and plonked Mcqueen and the perennial offender, Yul Brynner in it. Why? Because they thought white boys would do it better? They didnt even credit their source material. But even that was miles ahead of what they did to Kurosawas Rashomon. Honestly, the way the West has pillaged Asian storytelling since the beginning of cinema is despicable. And still it continues..
This is why people like myself are sick, tired and fed-up of Hollywood not having the greatness of diverse people in movies. I have a huge fondness of Chinese film industry and I believe that Chinese actors should be in films that fit in China. Why would they have White people who knows nothing about China in a Chinese film? That is easy………… MONEY. People believe that China isn’t open to diversity due towards prejudice. I believe not to be true because I live in the Caribbean and we have Chinese tourist and they love our island, however if I am wrong does this have anything to do with Censorship in China that people are not allowed to see such films that are missing? I could be wrong.
Anyway, I have great respect to Constance Wu and many Chinese actors who spoke out and calls out Hollywood. People of Color (a term I don’t like) have had enough of the rich White people can make themselves famous in a movie in a “certain location” that they know nothing about and expects people to watch to make the movie millions. They need to think of what they did.
I live in the Caribbean too and I’ve been seeing an increase in tourists which shows that they’re embracing diversity since the WI is predominantly black people. On another note I find fake Caribbean accents to be extremely annoying, perhaps more West Indians need to attempt breaking into Hollywood as well.
OMG. Fake Caribbean accents are so so annoying. I have a couple of Jamaican friends who STILL deride Taye DIggs accent in How Stella Got Her Groove Back. As well as those faux Jamaicans in Marked for Death.
Laughing at the accent thing. One of Mr Sixer’s best friends is Antiguan and last time she came up from London to see us she was moaning like hell that all her kids speak MLE (the modern London accent, a mix of Caribbean, Indian/Pakistani and Cockney) and not PROPER CARIBBEAN.
Islander here and we have a growing amount of expat Chinese living and working on our island. It tickles me, the looks on some people’s faces when they see a little Chinese boy or girl speak with a West Indian accent.
Wish i could speak Chinese. Alas, I only know a couple of phrases.
It always excites me a bit to find other islanders in these forums o/
The Last Emperor was a beautiful film that starred Chinese actors…and I think it won a lot of awards..it was a box office success I know that! If anyone knows even a little bit about China’s history…the Great Wall is like the iconic symbol of Chinese greatness whether or not it is true..it is true to them. I think what might be more insulting than having a white man save the Chinese it is to have a white man saving the Chinese at the Great Wall. It is just so historically inaccurate it is nuts…and it is an insult just as it would be if we had POC portraying a Viking or a Alexander the Great. Just too much of a stretch. But that is Hollywood for ya.
Well to be fair, there were Africans who travelled to “Viking territory” being credited as Vikings. So a POC could play a Viking. 🙂 However I do agree, this film is white washing history and the Chinese backers are being complicit in racism.
OK, POC as a Viking or a Greek..but I think we agree that it is bizarre to have a non-Asian in that role!
Trailer looks every bit like that Cusack, Brody, Chan movie, Dragon Blade to me. That film was a success in China but didn’t fare well Stateside. And it looks like John Cusack was embarrassed to be there too. 47 Ronin didn’t do well too. Casting a white (or predominantly white looking part Asian) A lister as lead does not guarantee box office success. Asian actors are only hired in films with warriors, martial arts and dragons and then they give the lead part to a white, bankable dude. Such waste of opportunity. I am beginning to side with Bill Maher on this issue.
How come the justification for hardly ever having POC in historical films and even fantasy is that it would be ‘historically innaccurate’ for the time period, as if POC weren’t invented before then but they’re happy bend over backwards to justify placing a white man in this?
Exactly, the same argument was made for that horribly offensive film Gods of Egypt. It’s a fantasy, so it’s ok to have white leads. SMH.
Of course she is mad. The whitewashing that goes on in Hollywood is ridiculous. I do blame Damon and other white actors who take these roles because they should know better.
It is not a Hollywood movie .It is a Chinese movie produced by Chinese producers.
Read @GreenieWeenie’s commentary
It is still whitewashed nonsense.
It is an adaptation of Kafka’s short story “The Great Wall Of China” .It is not an historic movie .
We even don’t know how the director will explain his Hollywood actors in the movie.Nothing says they will be the white saviors
I’m sure there will be some bs explanation.
I love constance Wu! This is ridiculous that even now movies like this are being made staring all white people, AND IT’S ABOUT THE GREAT WALL OF CHINA! Are you kidding me????? I didn’t even know about this movie. I won’t see it just to protest, plus I’m so sick of Damon. But I need to remind people that this movie most likely got greenlit before the past two years of #oscarssowhite so I’m thinking (HOPING) we will see an end to all of this nonsense relatively soon.
Luhan (Chinese Bieber) is also in this movie so I was surprised he wasn’t more heavily featured in the trailer. I guess he’ll only be promoted in Asia, since white people couldn’t possibly be interested in Asian superstars.
Yeah, he’ll probably only promote there, since he’s huge in China. I would have liked to see him more in the trailer regardless, since this could be a breakout role for him.
In France,Luc Besson produces/directs/writes/films some movies with foreigner actors as lead and some French actors as supporting because he wants to export his movies all around the world.
Lucy is a French movie.The Transporter saga are French because they are produced by French persons,directed by a French director,filmed in France.
The tv show Versailles is filmed/produced in France with some Brit actors as leads
What is the last no-US/English spoken movie what you watched in a movie complex?
I don’t think I am exactly understanding your point, but side note: I hate Lucy with a fiery passion. It’s incredibly, incredibly racist. ScarJo hops from Asian country to Asian country in a film that makes no distinction between different nations and cultures, and she is the pretty, innocent white girl who is perpetually “victimized” by “scary,” “violent,” foreigners. There is an underlying xenophobia and prejudice in the way that movie was made. And worse, it was just a terrible movie. It did a disservice to the great Choi Min-sik, one of Korea’s most talented actors. I’m sorry I don’t understand what you were trying to say, but this leads me to my main point. I’m so sad that Lucy was the movie that did well at the box office and propelled ScarJo to superstardom. This was the movie that eventually led to her being cast in Ghost in the Shell. She seems to be a common denominator in a lot of these Hollywood racism/whitewashing situations….
Due to the baffling popularity of Lucy, we’re going to keep getting racist and/or reductive portrayals of Asians in the media, both in Hollywood and abroad. Case in point: The Great Wall. I know maybe it’ll do well in China, and it stars a bunch of Chinese actors as well, but the powers that be in the rest of the world, particularly Western countries, are the ones who will do the interpreting for us. And they will take the most basic, twisted interpretation of the box office numbers. They will think Matt Damon sold this movie. And they will say, “Oh, well, then ok. I’ll just keep casting white people as Asian people. That sells!” So then they will stuff all of their Japanese anime adaptations with white people, even unknown white people, without giving Asian-American actors a chance. So then this cycle will just continue. Then they will point their finger and blame the Chinese film industry, all the while deliberately misunderstanding what the AA community is speaking up against. That’s what Constance Wu is doing. She is speaking up, yes, from the AA perspective. That doesn’t mean it’s not legitimate. She’s speaking to a larger issue, not just Matt Damon in a movie set in China. She’s speaking to the future. It’s going to keep happening. Years of this won’t stop Hollywood. And that’s f—ing depressing.
KHLBHL
Agree. The only good thing about Lucy is the end when she turns black, which is an interesting metaphysical theory. Besides that, it was an odd movie that seems to hijack Asian culture. My biggest gripe with this mess is that the leads are white males, not supporting, not barely starring in, but leads. The poster features Matt Damon’s doughboy face. The tv spots will most likely only focus on Matt Damon, and therefore visual association for a lot of people and children means Great Wall of China + White male = history. It can not be helped because that is how the brain processes visual codes. Hollywood knows this, those Chinese financial backers should know this.
Makes me think of the Paul Mooney joke that’s NSFW about the whitewashing in Hollywood. It’s funny because it sadly so true.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BfAEgUKUIzc
Paul Mooney’s jokes rock. That is all. Whenever the Popeye’s Chicken commercial comes on with their black spokeswoman/actor I always think of his joke and crack up.
The fact that they chose American writers and an American lead means they were trying to appeal to a market other than just China, presumably the US.
Well Constance is a part of that target market and she doesn’t like the idea of it.it doesn’t matter what the Chinese think of it. Although I do feel the decisions for the movie were made under some bias that they themselves are unwilling to admit to.
Also for the longest time I thought Matt Damon was such a nice guy but nowadays ….I think he is a very self righteous person who is constantly patting himself on the back for being Mr Down to Earth Decent Good Guy. A real life Steve Rogers if you will. Just read any of his interviews and you’ll probably see it too.
The fact that they chose American writers and an American lead means they were trying to appeal to a market other than just China, presumably the US.
Well Constance is a part of that target market and she doesn’t like the idea of it.it doesn’t matter what the Chinese think of it. Although I do feel the decisions for the movie were made under some bias that they themselves are unwilling to admit to.
Also for the longest time I thought Matt Damon was such a nice guy but nowadays ….I think he is a very self righteous person who is constantly patting himself on the back for being Mr Down to Earth Decent Good Guy. A real life Steve Rogers if you will. Just read any of his interviews and you’ll probably see it too.
Matt Damon is perfectly cast as the white savior!
These white savior movies are so effin uncomfortable to watch.
Who is paying to see these movies???
People who just don’t care/blissfully unaware of the many problems these movies bring.
People who think Bradley Cooper is a Republican and are shocked, SHOCKED I tell ya, for him to be at the Democratic Convention without a sniper rifle in one hand and the American flag in the other.
I’m over white saviour movies, magical negro movies and all ‘chosen one’ movies for sure.
Good for her. She’s totally right. Although if that movie didn’t have Matt Damon in it, it probably never would have been made….which might have been a good thing because the trailer suggests it’s a dud.
Throw another log on the fire. I and so many other people are so sick and tired of the white savior trope.
We’re sick of the excuses and hoops that have to be made for there to be white saviors. We’re tired of POC only having any kind of prominence in science fiction just so there can be white saviors to rescue us. We roll our eyes deeply at Hollywood trying to tell us how this is good for us and will open more doors and blah blah oh look ten years have passed and nothing has changed.
Done. Not seeing it, no interest, que sera if it bombs.
Constance is awesome, and Matt Damon is *really* starting to annoy me. But I’m most sad about Pedro Pascal. After his amazing work on Game of Thrones and Narcos, I am bummed he’s going to be in this.
GIVE EM HELL CONSTANCE!!! snatch those wigs! Big HONK for Constance, I want her casual AND dressy Outfits covered and her tweets and anything she wants to show us!
I guess I’m one of the few westerners that would watch the film because I read the name of Zhang Yimou as director and my beloved Andy Lau in acting credits (Infernal affairs and As tears go by forever). Damon would rather be a deterrent.
@manta Yes, my interest was definitely piqued when I saw Zhang Yimou’s name attached, and I’m way more likely to see this film now. First film of his I ever saw was “Raise the Red Lantern” which was amazing, and have watched quite a few of his other films since then. It’s a bit sad to me that so many people don’t seem to have a clue who he is.
Oh I love that movie, didn’t realise we were talking about the same director.
This film is Chinese not Hollywood and it is not based on anything and probably would not have gotten made without a big Western star. So it is different from usual situations. And oviously the marketing for us features Damon heavily, that is why eh was hired, otherwise it would be just some Chinese film with foreign and unknown stars. The actual film could give other people more scree time, marketing is often misleading.
I am not saying this is great but it is not normal situation and in this case would be important to actually see the film. I think it is great that this film has both Western and Asian actors and I hope more films like that.
The trailer tells us nothing about the movie’s plot or the importance of each character. This is a joint Chinese/Hollywood production that is meant to appeal to both Chinese and western audiences. And while here in the west we’re familiar with the “white savior” trope, that would hardly go over well with Chinese movie-goers (which is why I don’t think the plot is moving in that direction).
Everyone keeps repeating that this is a Chinese movie. The film was produced by Legendary Pictures, an American production company. China Film Group Co owns a stake of Legendary East (the eastern division of Legendary Pictures), and they are distributing this film in China. So yes, you can call it an American-Chinese co-production, but the American company has a controlling interest.
Regardless of whether you are for or against Damon’s casting, I think it’s important to clarify the facts.
Interestingly, Wanda Group of China acquired Legendary Pictures earlier this year for $3.5 billion. The production of The Great Wall predates the acquisition, but no doubt conversations between those two entities were taking place at least since then.
There are going to be more East+West mashups. I do hope they do a better job of it than with this Great Wall situation.
That’s interesting. I didn’t realize a Chinese company acquired it. Incidentally, there’s a new article about it today. Seems like they’re having second thoughts about ,merging the American division of the company with the Chinese one.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/wanda-scraps-56b-plan-merge-916142
And for those who want more specifics on the film:
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/envelope/cotown/
Double post
But, but it was made in CHINA. It’s the Chinese doing it. Weak excuses and misdirection. For a good perspective, check out http://reappropriate.co/2016/07/matt-damon-is-not-the-hero-china-needs-but-hes-the-one-hollywood-will-give-us/
Thanks for the article. When I heard about the project I thought there would be Asian actors in the lead roles (or at least some of them). You can’t imagine, how disappointed I was, when I got hit with Matt Damon as the lead.
Um. Lots of interesting comments today …
But my understanding of her statement and follow-up statements by her and other supporters in the twitterverse as well as my Asian American friends emailing this around like it’s gold to share was that this is about a systemic issue of how POCs are portrayed in film. She’s very specific about not assigning blame to this movie alone or Matt Damon.
I don’t mean to sound too dismissive but I think regardless of how the film is being produced or funded or where it’s being developed the depiction of Asians in cinema is in the majority as second fiddle to their non Asian characters/castmates. The cherry on top is when not only are the Asian characters/actors not allowed to lead the movie but require saving or justification of existence by white ones. This is applicable in my opinion to all POCs and not just Asians. This film is just another representative of this industry and film issue with Asians in particular.
I’m going to stop with the words now, because I’m sure my opinion is wrong enough for enough, already.
‘He is not representative of the problem with Hollywood. He is the solution. Constance Wu should be cheering for this, but she doesn’t know enough about China to appreciate the moment.’
I don’t know where you are from, Greenieweenie. But shame on you if you’re Chinese. My general dislike to Zhang’s thorough lack of integrity and depth aside, it makes me sick to my stomach when I have to explain to my fellow Chinese why it ticks people to have a film named ‘Great Wall’ of all things led by Hollywood stars.
Thank you, CB ladies, for speaking out against white savior trope. I can’t read through Greenieweenie’s comments without seeing red.
Furthermore, Greenieweenie, if you really think Zhang’s the solution – good luck with that notion – the man has been trying for the last twenty years, taking Hollywood by storm hasn’t happened yet.
I agree with you. That part of the thread was making me sick.
I’m not Asian, but many of my friends are. They already have to turn to East Asian media to see themselves. Having Damon in the movie just shows that even in China being ‘global’ means ‘white lead’.
I agree..a lot of outrage which is great. African Americans have been featured from the desserts of Arabia to Shakespeare – very normal.. but Asians are seldom depicted at all in these historic epic films … and yet they were the ones who crossed continents along the Silk Route…..and are so much a part of ancient history too.
Racism and white washing is different in the US than other parts of the world. Still, very few poc countries are exempt from a tendency to inflate the value of whiteness and white (european) culture, probably because they’ve all been impacted by colonialism in varying degrees, including China (opium wars).
To suggest that this co-production between China and Hollywood is not impacted by white supremacist tropes like the white savior is incredibly disingenuous. Maybe the degree to which these ideas are internalized by the Chinese population is less than in the US, but I think there is still some appeal for these tropes in China.
Sometime back, I read an article in the NY Times that described a phenomena in China where real estate was marketed as ‘international’, a selling point. In order to convey this message, companies hired non-Chinese actors,( with white actors being paid the most) to populate the promotional events. So clearly there is a premium placed on white skin, one that equates whiteness with desireability.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/28/opinion/rent-a-foreigner-in-china.html
Did they try to pass Pedro Pascal for Chinese?
No
Anyone remember The last samurai?
It is a Chinese-American co-production that struggled for years to get made, and it is unlikely it would have got made if Matt had not signed on. It filmed for six months in China creating a huge number of jobs with a largely Chinese cast and crew except for some key personnel. It’s a fictional monster movie with a white traveler in the lead.
The movie would not have got made without a lesser star as it is seen as a prototype for future co-productions. The movie companies are trying to make money by their casting selections, and if this does well future movies will have a greater chance of getting made with more diverse casts.
please tell me your sarcasm here is based on some fictional film casting?! These days, it’s quite possible that this could be real casting for those roles so I don’t know whether to nod my head in agreement with your sarcasm or bash my head against a wall in utter disdain
Why is Damon being given a pass? He is oft quoted on this site, preachifying from his golden tower in a manner suggesting he is more correct than all. So? A role comes along and he has a chance to do the right thing, and he does. He goes for the money. Sadly, I don’t think he thinks he is superior because he is white, it seems he thinks everything he says and does is superior because he is he. So in rethinking this, I guess it never would have occurred to him that playing the white guy who saves all in what should be an all Chinese cast might appear racist to anyone not him. I felt for Effie Brown.