In the past month and a half, we’ve heard and read a lot of apologies, statements and half-assed admissions of guilt from many men accused of sexual harassment, sexual assault and rape. We’ve gotten used to the carefully worded, delicately crafted legalese, the feigned ignorance, the put-upon “who, me??” of it all. It’s very clear which men immediately contact their lawyers, and which men immediately contact their publicists. So is it weird that I’m not getting that vibe from Ed Westwick at all? As we discussed yesterday, an actress named Kristina Cohen wrote a lengthy Facebook post, claiming that Ed Westwick raped her three years ago. Westwick waited several hours before he issued a simple denial:
“I do not know this woman. I have never forced myself in any manner, on a woman. I certainly have never committed rape.”
Of course I want to believe him. Of course it would be nice to come away with at least one story of a man NOT being absolute garbage. Yesterday, I said “I believe you, Kristina” because we’ve arrived at the moment in history where we, as a society, are now primed to believe victims who come forward and tell their stories. It’s important to give women the benefit of the doubt. It’s important to give the accusers the benefit of the doubt rather than the accused, because historically the opposite has been true. Historically, Kristina Cohen would have been ripped to shreds by the media and everyone else as soon as she tried to tell her story. But we gave her the benefit of the doubt. And I’m still giving her the benefit of the doubt.
It will be interesting to see what happens next – if recent history has shown us anything, it’s that when one victim comes forward, more victims follow. Does Ed Westwick have more victims? Is Christina about to get some back-up? Or has Ed Westwick truly never met Kristina and never harmed any woman? Deadline reports that the LAPD is investigating Christina’s rape, and apparently two witnesses have come forward, saying that Kristina told them what happened in the days after the alleged rape.
Photos courtesy of WENN.
There have been so many public statements, and so much discussion of those statements. The ones coming out moving forwards will be better and more convincing, like Ed’s.
I think this post touches on why we disbelieve the victim first, as a reaction. We simply don’t want it to be true. It’s denial.
This would be especially true when it reflects negatively on someone we have positive feelings about.
I can understand why people (in the past) would be in denial about Ed Westwick — he’s generally liked. I don’t get the denial (at least in Hollywood) with these other guys though. For some reason when the news about Harvey Weinstein came out, it didn’t even register with me as shocking news.
The news about Ed Westwick made me go WTF.
I still think what she’s saying is true. I don’t disbelieve her. I think anything is possible with any of these people.
I just think it’s weird that people in Hollywood wanted to be in denial about Harvey Weinstein who behaves outwardly like a thug as opposed to someone who might be more likeable like,…I’m blanking on a name I can come up with. Maybe someone like Hugh Jackman?
Right, but you can be “well-liked” and also be a rapist. just saying.
Of course a well-liked person can be a rapist. I would never dispute that a well-liked person is capable of despicable things (see Bill Cosby and John Travolta). Even if someone said Hugh Jackman did something strange to someone, I probably wouldn’t be shocked. I’m just responding to the point in the original post up about about why might people tend to be in denial. This is what was said in the original post: “I think this post touches on why we disbelieve the victim first, as a reaction. We simply don’t want it to be true. It’s denial.”
And my point was more along the lines that I don’t find most men (well, at least the ones in Hollywood) “likeable” or seemingly outwardly nice in terms of fake appearances to be in denial about what they’re capable of. Even with someone like Bill Cosby, I probably wasn’t shocked (because so many times in society people have turned out not to be what they claimed to be). When people say they’re shocked someone did something, I don’t really get it. The only time I might be shocked is if they’re reputation is sterling and pristine (the only one who comes close might be Barack Obama. He’s the only person I can think of who I’d truly be shocked by if something odd came out about him. Even Joe Biden is known to be a little touchy-feely. I wasn’t shocked by the revelations about George Bush).
It’s a rare case where I’ll be shocked that a man is alleged to have done something unspeakable towards a woman. In the case of Ed Westwick, I probably was shocked, not because I find him likeable or less shifty, but more because I had never heard any rumours about him acting out bad behaviour. Then again, he’s probably not famous enough for rumours to surround him.
How is Eds statement strong? He just said she’s lying. That’s the cliche response. He said / she said is why these cases don’t go to court. There was 3 people in that house, and 2 seemed to have a plan before she got there. It’s the response I expected. Did you honestly expect him to say “Oh, her? Yeah, guilty”
It’s being used by some people to ‘prove’ he didn’t do it. As opposed to a different type of message. strong is probably not the most correct term, more that we will see statements from guilty people that will look more and more like statements from innocents.
His statement isn’t strong in terms of providing evidence he didn’t do it, but it does appear to be a strongly worded unequivocal denial of even knowing her. He left no wiggle room. If he did do it, then, whoa, he’s cocky about getting away with it.
Perplexed, exactly! To claim that he didn’t even know her is quite strong and potentially even more damning if it comes out he did really rape her.
All other accusers so far, that I can think of, never even tried to say they didn’t know the victim…
This is getting dangerous.
Like what happened to Conor Oberst…is there proof they’ve ever met? That psycho woman nearly destroyed Oberst. No one believed him.
Yeah, label dropped him. His life was destroyed. This is the exception, and not the rule, though.
I hope for her sake that this woman is telling the truth. I find it odd that she said that the guy she was dating was sort of an accomplice but she doesn’t name him.
Have you heard of the availability bias?
It is our intrinsic bias to provide more weight to more recent and strongly remembered events.
Just because something happened once, doesn’t mean it is likely.
I know significantly more un-prosecuted rapists that I do falsely accused ones.
Another woman says the same. He’s done. Bet more will come forward.
It is sad all around. Young people all of them. I don’t think there’s anything left to be said. He is a rapist.
Name the producer who brought her to Westwick’s house and told her to keep quiet afterwards. Why is this guy being protected? Name him. Make him explain himself.
And make him verify the meeting.
If the meeting happend, he is lying.
The story about the rape makes it clear that the producer was complicit, possibly to the point that he was procuring for Westwick. The producer is not a credible source.
That’s true. The ex-boyfriend does have motive to deny that it ever happened. But if he slips up and tries to say “They had consensual sex”, that blows Westwick’s “I don’t know her” claim. We already know that the two men at least know each other.
I agree with Merritt – the producer sounded like a procurer to me in the telling of her story.
he was named, I saw it last night somewhere
Exactly her original statement and some follow ups stated she didn’t want to name the producer which “why tf not?!”
I still air on the side of believing her until we see evidence to the contrary. If he’s never met her that would be easy to prove.
She does name him in the deadline article.
Proving a negative is easy?
The producer was Kaine Harling. Was named in The Hollywood Reporter story: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/ed-westwick-accused-rape-actor-denies-claim-1055474
Delete.
She did. His name is Kaine Harling.
The producer is identified as Kaine Harling.
Believe women. Trust no man.
The take away from these horror stories beginning with Weinstein is NOT that bitches be crazy and lying, but men are violent, liars and cannot be trusted.
We’ve arrived at that, haven’t we? I agree. And she has absolutely no reason to lie. Why in hell would she make up such a detailed story about Ed forkin’ Westwick of all people and even name the second guy who basically fed her to him? So there would be TWO guys who can rip her apart?
I hope law enforcement investigates many many of these claims and we see some of them end up in court.
No. We haven’t arrived at that.
Maybe you haven’t then.
We have absolutely NOT arrived to that conclusion. That’s going in the same direction as never believing women. I’ve known several men who were raped, and several more who were assaulted – by *women* not just men. If someone says that they were assaulted, I will believe them. But I won’t wash my hands of someone based on an accusation. I will demand that they answer. This guy has. I feel quite awkward, because while I obviously support her right to state that she was assaulted and get help, I support his right to not be falsely accused of something if he didn’t do it. It’s not black and white, friends. It never has been and never will be. If it was black and white, it wouldn’t happen, and if it did, it would always be met with serious repercussions. The reason this conversation is happening is because it’s so very, very grey.
AV, I don’t understand people’s obsession with “this isn’t black and white”. What is grey about it? I don’t understand your argument. I’ve said it here before. In my experience, the majority of men have a very very sexist side. At the very least. You dig deep enough, it comes out. I have very few men in my life (family and friends) for whom I would vouch. Maybe 2. Most of my female friends feel the same way.
I don’t know how you arrived at “women rape too” from what was said. Yes they do. But look at the numbers. Do we really have to act like it’s the same scale? No. Whenever someone comes at me with #whatabout or #itscomplicated, I’m out. Because that derails the conversation.
QueenB very clearly referred to these types of situation. Not “Trust no man EVER in your entire life!”
“I’ve known several men who were raped, and several more who were assaulted – by *women* not just men.”
Yes that is the issue currently plaguing our society: women raping and assaulting men.
I’ve read the back and forth —you’re first supposition is not proved, that’s the problem. “She has no reason to lie”—we don’t know that. She might have been so addled she really isn’t sure what happened or may be misidentifying Westwick. She might have a grudge or spite etc. or is piling on for notoriety and/or money. People lie destructively all the time for petty, venal, selfish reasons, men and women both. A Facebook post is the equivalent of scrawling something on the bathroom wall, but with a bigger audience. Accusations should and must be treated seriously, but you don’t get a free pass for having a vagina; that doesn’t fix the problem. Fixing the problem requires not giving men, particularly white men, a free pass, period.
But you are right about this: it’s passed time women wised up—everyone is not your friend and Prince Charming exists only in fairy tales.
Mostly yes we have. When a woman falsely accuses a famous man ALWAYS without hesitation, her friends come out and say either something supportive or they will tell on the person with examples of her instability. She doesn’t last very long under scrutiny, and the story has gaping holes in it right off the bat.
Taking into account a false accusation is very rare I believe the victim with an open mind that there may be another side.
This story has way too many details to be a lie. If it were John Oliver or someone like that I may pause more but Ed Westwick? Why? There is also contemporaneous confirmation, and that is very key here.
No one denies men get raped, but even then more often it is by other men. In my lifetime and it hasn’t been one hidden in a mountain village in Siberia I have only met one guy who has been raped by a woman. He was 13, and the woman was an adult who took him (kidnapped) on tour with her crappy punk band 20 years ago. I can’t count the women however who have been raped by men because the number is just too high.
@AV You know several men that were raped by women? Like several different men raped by several different women? Or like one teacher that slept with multiple students?
never assume.
Google Connor Oberst Rape and you’ll see why.
@Lua
That is 1 guy. Against 99 accusations that are true.
@magnoiliarose to that 1 guy in 99, it matters a whole effing lot, though.
Here’s the thing with basically the universe. Life only SURVIVES riding in the middle of the extremes. Any far end of the spectrum will be it’s own demise in the end. But you cannot EVOLVE either without those extremes there in the first place. We can’t all be middle of the road opinion; we don’t grow as a species or society with nothing to challenge thought, spark conversation, compare to. Constantly readjusting to find equilibrium is the goal, not finding out if men or women won, Christians or atheists, pro life or choice, etc.
Right now we popped a patriarchal bubble, and e are going to swing a little hard in the opposite direction. Now, the balance of power has shifted a little off center in opposite direction, and there WILL BE opportunistic women waiting to take down a certain man, because the general climate is slightly overcorrected to believe every single story. It’s absolutely ridiculous to say all women are right and good, and all men are wrong and bad. Every one of us here knows it, through varying degrees of gritted teeth.
I’m aware this means absolutely nothing, but this story pinged me weird since the beginning, and I’m only going off of the ping, and the VEHEMENT denial… but I think one would have to be bolder to vehemently deny an accusation where it’s assumed RECEIPTS WILL BE CHECKED, than to assert victimhood at a time when point blank a woman is told she is believed, no questions asked.
For every up there is a down, for every left there is a right, every yin there is a yang. Every right has a wrong, and the back side of every right is wrong, and the back side of every wrong is right. Going full on any one direction with ANYTHING in the scope of the universe brings it’s own demise, and we have to accept the ebb and flow, find the fairest system, and catch those who WILL take advantage, because there always will be a few.
Balance folks, it’s about balance. We need to keep cool heads, though I know we are all angry, feeling validated however little or late, but we need to stay fair and rational, and think what feminism stands for- EQUALITY, not justice.
I don’t agree with that completely. But I still think he did rape her. He doesn’t use her name and he’s known as a cokehead, hence he may not really remember her. And she was pimped out by her bf… So there are two assulters in this case
I can’t imagine why Kristina would risk ther reputation and career, not to mention a libel suit, by lying. Sure, Ed is innocent until proven guilty, but the evidence thus far doesn’t favor him.
I’m gonna play devil’s advocate for a sec. She or any other woman could be lying. Why? Rejection, attention, revenge, money in cases of famous men or just simply delusion. But that makes around 2 percent.
Women can lie as well as men. But women rarely lie about rape. Cos it’s scares them. Cos it’s the ultimate crime and men will never be able to understand it the way women do.
So this case is terrifying no matter who is lying.
I believe her. But if she WAS lying about rape, especially right NOW with everything going on …it is going to be the one story that every apologist points to. And that is just…I have no words.
If he is lying, and I believe he is, well, then it goes to show just how confident men are about getting away with it. It isn’t like he JUST said he didn’t rape her. Rape cases are notoriously hard to prove, so I can see a filthy rapist taking a stab at lying. He could say it was consensual and a judge is going to have little evidence to go on. But he is claiming he doesn’t even know her? Which means she would have had to of made the whole thing up? And the producer BF would have to also lie and say he never brought her there? THAT is a much bigger/bolder lie.
And this guy is no Weinsten. He is a C list actor from a once popular tv show that no longer is on air. (well, not new eps anyway) If HE feels that confident? Jesus, we are so screwed.
+1,000 to everything Pamela said.
I don’t agree. That’s black and white thinking which is a cognitive distortion
Good lord smh…
Wow, that’s a dangerous and sexist statement to make. And certainly a pile of lies.
I think this is the perfect example for the Court of Public Opinion only taking us so far. I am definitely always inclined to believe the victim but there is a reason for innocent until proven guilty.
I hope for an unbiased (against the victim) investigation of this case by the authorities and will reserve judgement until then.
I think it needs to be possible to believe the victim and still give the accused a chance to clear his name.
I agree with you. Though in this case I’m thinkig what’s the point of fabricating this story. If they met once or have not met at all as Ed is implying there is no motive for her to lie and get back to him for anything ( which is what Ryan Phillippe implied when he was acussed of assault) and really, Ed is not someone who you could ride for 15 minites of fame (because this is what those all mysogynistic comment are ment to imply, that somehow coming forward with accusation of sexual assault or domestic abuse somehow is used for fame which is total bs). So again, what would be the point of this accusation which comes only at the expence of reputation of a woman coming forward who for sure will be attacked and called names and blamed for this.
Oh, I for sure agree with you that there is no reason for this woman to fabricate the story. Which is why I am inclined to believe her!
But since Westwick denied it, unlike all the other perps so far who immediately copped to at least SOME of their bullshit, the public is at an impasse.
I’m just supremely uncomfortable with drumming the drum of his guilt in this situation. And despite all the bullshit shenanigans the authorities have and continue to pull on the women who come forward – I believe in a society where the law is still in the hands of the judiciary.
“I’m just supremely uncomfortable with drumming the drum of his guilt in this situation.”
You need to work through that programming. Society teaches us to doubt women. A womans word is enough proof.
Fwiw, I was groped by a minorly famous actor and when I confronted him, he had his agent send me a long letter basically making out I was some kind of obsessed fan and stalker and saying he wished me well and all kinds of gaslighting BS. The “obsessed fan” narrative is a very easy one for celebs to use.
Just my opinion, but I think people are semi-forgetting Weinstein is still FIRMLY denying ANY non-consensual acts. I don’t believe him, I doubt anyone does. I am not sure a firm denial means much. I mean, if three women came forward and two said he groped them ala Affleck, would Westwick cop to the gropes and deny the rape? doing that we can now call “pulling a Weinstein”.
I don’t know. Sure, some unstable person could have become obsessed with him while Gossip Girl was airing, and invented a story 3 years ago that she contemporaneously entertained her friends with, and then come out now publically when the atmosphere is different.
Or…he could have raped her.
A woman’s word is NOT enough proof! We can be inclined to believe a woman, assume she is telling the truth and give her every chance to prove her case legally in a fair legal system…but we are going down a very slippery slope when we decide that one segment of society needs to be automatically believed on word alone. That type of thinking is what led to African Americans being convicted on word alone by white accusers.
I believe that this woman is probably telling the truth, and what I hope happens is that both side’s claims get fairly tested in the legal system and the outcome is that the complete truth comes out.
@QueenB, c’mon…I am fully supportive of women coming forward but to say that “a woman’s word is enough proof” is a problematic statement.
“but there is a reason for innocent until proven guilty. ”
You are right. It is to protect men from consequences of their crimes. Who do you think came up with the idea of women having to provide evidence and that not her word is enough? Men who think women lie. Men who want to rape and not face jail.
Hopefully all of this will lead to getting rid of all the constraints protecting men.
Women.Do.not.lie.about.rape. How often do we have to repeat that?
God, surely you don’t believe that’s the reason for innocent until proven guilty. And it does happen, women are not angelic saints. They lie and do bad things, too. Equality.
Surely you know good men in your life. If someone came forward and claimed in the press they were raped by one of them, would you automatically believe the accuser? I hope not. In a post-truth world (thanks Trump) we can’t be as quick to assume every statement and claim is real. We just can’t.
As a mom of four sons it frightens me to see all men vilified. And as much as moms of girls worry about rape and sexual assault I worry about false accusations. I have counseled my boys to death about alcohol and sexual activity. But it’s still a huge fear.
All men are not monsters. All men are not liars. All men are not rapists. And if you truly believe that I feel sorry for you.
@ QueenB I’m sorry but that is untrue. Some rape allegations are false. Ask the University of Virginia about women who lie about rape.
I am in no way saying that is what is happening in this case, or that we should assume it is. I am only stating that yes, sometimes, women do lie, and they deserve the very harshest judgement, because their falsehoods make it that much harder for legitimate victims.
Look there is a reason for innocent until proven guilty. Without getting too deeply into it I’ve been accused and gone through a legal battle for something I didn’t do. No it wasn’t rape and yes I do believe this woman is telling the truth but yes I do believe everyone deserves their day in court. It’s important for our society at large that we still give people that legal right to prove their innocence.
Trust no one blindly. That is a slippery slope. If there is proof it will come out and if it does than eff him, but I am not about to become a one woman judge and jury.
Kcat:
“Surely you know good men in your life. If someone came forward and claimed in the press they were raped by one of them, would you automatically believe the accuser?”
Yes, I would. Every feminist must. Have you missed out on all these conversations? Also “good men” do not get accused of rape. But “good men” do rape.
And dont “notallmen” me. Thats a silencing tactic.
BB Carrots:
“Some rape allegations are false. ” If you define false as “male police officer wrote down “false” because he didnt believe her” then you are right. I posted an article a little further down how its more likely to be killed by an asteroid than be accused of rape.
This is some of the dumbest stuff I have ever heard.
Innocent until proven guilty has NEVER been about rape cases. Yes, it makes proving those specific cases incredibly difficult because they boil down to a he said/she said situation.
But this is not a reason to abandon the judicial process wholesale?
WTF dear QueeB, WTF?
Innocent until proven guilty is proteciton for everyone regardless of sex or gender.
And giving up this baisic principle could be turned against women.
Remember the witchhunts when the pure accusation was enough to to condem millions of women to dead.
*One of the reasons why I hate men using the term whitchhunt. They have the protection the women who were accused of wichcraft never had.
QueenB, I feel for the men in your life.
Not true. Sometimes, women do lie about rape. Most of those invented rape claims are about “some guy”, and no specific man is named. Launching a false rape accusation against a specific, named man, is unusual…but sure, it does happen. It’s happened.
That is not true. How many times do ppl in these threads have to explain to you that there ARE woman (and men) who lie about being raped? The amount may be small, but it happens! Jeez!
QueenB, innocent until proven guilty is a basic tenet of the Magna Carta, but i guess you’d prefer the reign of terror and the witch trials.
The problem is that very often, there is plenty of evidence and still nobody believes women. THAT is the issue. Amber Heard anyone? She had all the receipts and still, she was doubted. To name just one.
The women who do lie usually have something to gain (i.e. in divorce or custody proceedings). I have yet to see statistics that show me that it’s actually a thing that women randomly lie about rape. And even if those statistics exist, they don’t ever count the women who didn’t even report their assault. So WHY??? There is no upside. This revenge bs is a narrative sold by men.
Ask yourselves this. If your friend comes to you and tells you she was raped, what is your first reaction? Oh, well, let’s see if it’s proven that he’s guilty. NO! You offer support, you ask her if she’s gotten medical help, whether she’s been to the police.
Just think about that the next time you doubt a woman’s story. The investigation is someone else’s job. I for one am not here to be neutral. And I don’t mean I want the guy thrown in prison without trial.
Uhh…QueenB, that is not what feminism is.
Feminism is literally social, economic and political equality of men and women.
So yes, believe women, support women, and make sure women get their fair day in court. It doesn’t mean we have to believe a woman’s word as evidence enough, just as we don’t believe a man’s word as evidence enough. It means their voice is HEARD and given credence to.
But condemning a person solely on the voice of a single other person and nothing else…that’s a dangerous legal slope to slide down.
women don’t lie about rape? luckily, my hometown is so messed up that I can give you a story of the contrary: an 18-year-old from my hometown just accused her geography teacher of sexual abuse. he loses his job and has to move with his family far far away because of the public scrutiny. however, the trial actually showed he was innocent. how? the girl was telling her friends the whole time that it was fake and how she wanted to get revenge on him for her grades and after he was fired one of them felt guilty and went to the police.
Believe me, if anyone accused either of my two brothers of rape, I would be expecting proof before I believed the accusation. And a guilty verdict before I believed the accusation.
Have you not heard of the Duke lacrosse case? A black woman working as a stripper was hired by lacrosse players at Duke for a party, she accused 3 white male students at Duke of raping her (she previously accused the entire team and kept changing her story), dragging their names through the mud before it was determined she was lying and the case was dropped. She is now currently in jail for stabbing and killing a boyfriend. I was a senior in high school at the time and it was a big story. I want to automatically believe every woman who comes forward but there are a minority that lie about it unfortunately.
@KCAT, you can take comfort in the fact that your sons are statistically more likely to commit actual rape than be falsely accused of it. /s
Your time would be better spent worrying about the prospect of your sons not understanding enthusiastic consent…or the destructiveness of male entitlement.
“Women.Do.not.lie.about.rape. How often do we have to repeat that?”
As a woman, I never got that memo. Women are human, and just like men, we run the spectrum from wonderfully amazing to truly horrifying. Very few women pursue falsely accusing a man of rape, but it does happen. And our judicial system doesn’t imprison a person based on statistics.
Women are definitely not saints. Plenty of scummy, conniving women in this world. Some would lie to hurt a man they don’t like. Or to get ahead in life. I know plenty of shitty women. I am not a believer of the “guilty until proven innocent” notion. Give everyone a fair shake.
Oh my god. “I know a woman who lied” is not what this is about. Good Lord. Why do you all feel so compelled to make sure we all know that women can be terrible people too? We KNOW. That is not the issue! But good for you that you’re standing up for men in the name of fairness. It’s what’s really missing from this entire debate.
@Amelie
I heard she was actually paid off by the boys parents. They were all very wealthy and she had solid proof but was vilified for the reasons you mentioned. She was black and a stripper so no one would believe her. She, like most strippers, came from a horrible background with lots of abuse and also suffered from mental illness.
Another strike against her.
I agree with innocent until proven guilty, but that story was not a good support of that because there were a lot of holes and journalists were even questioning the verdict. The boys were also very guilt ridden which you can go back and see.
She had their semen on or in her which is how she got as far as she did with the case in the first place.
I think your post highlights two distinct concepts: the burden of proof for depriving someone of liberty vs the burden of proof for moral judgment.
As a lawyer, I understand and agree with the criminal standard being innocent until proven guilty and the standard being beyond a reasonable doubt. And that applies across all crimes. In that system, it is indeed better for 99 guilty individuals to go free rather than to deprive the liberty of 1 innocent person (in practice, of course, there are a lot of innocent people who are deprived of liberty based on a lot of inappropriate facts, but that is another discussion).
There are different standards for civil claims (the onus of proof is a balance of probabilities) and so too are there differences for applying moral judgment. The justice system will abide by the innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt standard, but the question is, what information do you need before you exercise moral judgment? I’m guessing in your day to day life, you don’t use the beyond a reasonable doubt standard and it behooves all of us to ask ourselves why we apply a standard in one area of moral judgement and not another.
For me, I will continue to not economically support individuals whose conduct warrants my moral disapproval and that list includes those who have never been found guilty at law of a crime.
Why wouldn’t he do it? What makes him different to the other liars? Everbody denies differently.
I believe Kristina. Why would she make up a story about that – with a beady eyed, nobody like him?
Yeah, that is how I think, too.
My feeling is that I don’t want him to be guilty. Why? Because he’s cute and I like his work? His crafted statement was better? That’s not enough.
I believe Kristina.
Agreed. Because the benefit for her would be??? Oh yeah Nothing.
“I do not know this woman” is a bold statement. Now if only one picture of them just attending the same party emerges, or somebody says they have talked once, there will be no way back for him. Let’s see what happens.
This. Let’s wait and see.
That statement tells me he definitely did not consult a lawyer. Even if he’s innocent that’s a ridiculously stupid thing to say.
We will see. We will see.
He should have talked to a lawyer first. This statement will get his defense in huge problems.
Like you say: No way a celeb can remember who he “never met” .
I also find it unsettling that he uses “this woman” instead of “Kristina Cohen”.
That’s so he can later say Who said I was talking about her? I didn’t mean Kristina Cohen, I meant Nanny Lou. Silly you for making that mistake!
Just another way of further separating himself from her.
Perhaps “unsettling” was the wrong word to use? I basically got the impression that he worded it so as to be able to cover himself at all costs and further down the line. Definitely agree with you guys.
Nanny Lou made me laugh.
I think he is arrogant enough to believe that works. Detectives love when a criminal says what he said because once they prove they lied, they have more reason to keep digging, and the DA becomes interested.
YES! I said something similar above. It would be so easy to prove he HAD met her, even if the only time they breathed the same air was when she was at his home, someone could remember seeing her alive, there could be a security tape, and that Producer would have to be 100% willing to lie and say HE never brought her there. (And even if the Producer lied, hopefully the producer didn’t mention bringing her there to anyone that could possibly come forward)
So either she is lying, which would be so disappointing and gross. OR he is, and he is so confident that he can get away with it that he told the biggest , boldest lie there is.
I believe her, and I do hope there is some evidence to help her case.
The police could bring in the producer and lean on him to flip on Ed, as it sounds like he was an accomplice.
I’ve seen so many comments on other sites about him being an aggressive creep.
Yup. I’ve heard he’s a complete alcoholic, jackass creepfest. Does that make him a rapist? Nope. Would I be surprised if he assaulted Ms. Cohen? NOPE!
I’m glad this is being investigated by the LAPD. I think more victims will come out if her statement is 100% accurate. What she described sounded very planned out and predatory between Ed and the producer boyfriend. I doubt it was a one time thing.
That’s what I’ve been thinking: Either she’s lying or the guy she was dating set her up. From what I’ve been reading, it doesn’t sound like a typical “boyfriend” in that one article made it sound like they’d only been out a few times. There are holes in this puzzle. Think about it. The girl you’re dating is tired and not feeling well and asks to be taken home. Instead of doing that, he makes excuses about not offending Westwick and they send her to a bedroom where she’s assaulted. Where was the boyfriend during the assault and why isn’t he outraged at what happened to his girlfriend?
Last night when I was wide awake in the middle of the night, I thought, this is how it could have happened:
Producer and Westwick are friends. Producer tells Westwick he’s dating a girl who’s a fan, who’s “beautiful and up for anything,” something like that. Producer brings Cohen to Westwick’s place. Westwick is under the impression Cohen is fine with a threesome, because of something Producer said and/or inferred. Producer and/or Westwick slips Cohen “something” to “help her relax.” She’s not feeling well and is tired, so they tell her to go lie down. She’s kind of out of it, starts to come to and finds herself in this horrible position with Westwick. Producer is in on the entire scenario, which is why he was fine with sharing her with Westwick and why he told her that her life would be ruined if she said anything.
That’s what my writer mind came up with in the middle of the night.
I can only think of drugs involved, because if she had already a bad feeling about the evening )talk of sex, threesome and so on) why the hell would she go to “take a nap” in a guestroom alone, in the very place she wanted to leave asap (but allegedly in about 20 mins no to displease the host). I don’t know…it sounds off.
Also wondering if she was drugged
Me too. Sudden fatigue without being ill seems fishy.
I think the instinct to doubt the victim/accuser is changing – at least for me, and I think for many people I know, the instinct now is to believe the victim.
This can of course go both ways, since the cornerstone of the justice system is innocent until proven guilty, and there ARE people who make false accusations.
It’s a bit of a minefield, isnt it? But personally, I think I owe it to victims/accusers to believe them.
“and there ARE people who make false accusations.”
Thats another myth. Male police officers write down false accusations because THEY dont believe the victim. False rape accusations are rarer than getting killed by an asteroid!!
You are 11x More Likely to Be Killed by Asteroid or Comet (1 in 250,000)!
https://www.buzzfeed.com/charlesclymer/5-things-more-likely-to-happen-to-you-than-being-f-fmeu?utm_term=.icpqqYdLJ#.xk355RoX8
QueenB – I should clarify my comment regarding false accusations – I was speaking in context of the justice system as a whole, which is underpinned by the benefit of ‘innocent until proven guilty’, and within which people DO make false accusations.
In context of accusations of rape/sexual misconduct/abuse I repeat that I feel I owe it to the victim/accuser to believe them.
I agree false allegations are very rare, but they do actually occur. We all know of some very famous instances of them. Now, the reason those cases are so well known is because of how incredibly unusual an occurrence they are, unlike actual sexual assault, which remains unfortunately ubiquitous.
I worked with athletes and the number of sexual assaults I heard about was astounding and I fully and completely believe that 99.9999999% of those occurred as described. (And an overwhelming number also involved drinking and/or drugs, too.) But there was one where a basically unknown college athlete was accused and his life very nearly ruined by what turned out to be provably false accusations, and it’s a little scary that, that only become clear after his accuser made one too many outlandish claims that could be easily disproved because the athlete was involved in televised games or in other states at times she accused him of repeat assaults. None of which came out before he’d lost his scholarship and spot on his team, and his parents had spent tens of thousands on legal fees. If the girl who, yes, had mental health problems, and, it was learned much later, a history of previous false claims, probably in a misguided attempt for attention, just stuck to her initial story it would have been he said/she said with no real way to prove a negative. (They HAD been at the same party and spoken to one another; no one could attest to either of their whereabouts for the time she claimed the initial assault occurred.) So, yes, it’s EXTREMELY rare, but it does happen.
This doesn’t make me not believe victims. And, in this Ed Westwick case, the details are logical, specific and credible, and my gut says this is true. Of course, that doesn’t mean that Westwick will ever see the inside of a courtroom.
Much more common than the very rare false accusation is the can’t-be-successfully-proven-in-a-court-of-law accusation. That doesn’t equal innocence or exoneration; just lack of enough hard evidence to win a conviction.
People lie about being raped, but very rarely. 2% out of all cases, so not a lot. But let’s not pretend no woman has ever lied about rape.
@ S
You articulated what I think entirely. There is always something off about the accuser that comes to light. But it is incredibly rare for a stable woman to falsely accuse a man of something that is hard to talk about, and fear of being shamed.
The stats I read said between 3-7/100 make false allegations. So so many are willing to believe that 93-97/100 women are liars because of 3-7 women. It’s going to be an uphill battle for a long time.
If men aren’t to be believed when they say they didn’t rape someone, are they to be believed when they say a man raped them? Are they untrustworthy because they are men? Or trustworthy as alleged victims?
Thing is, all types of crimes have a certain amount of false reporting. People cheat their insurers by falsely reporting thefts, for instance. Or, they say they’ve been robbed to hide careless spending. Suicides are disguised as murders (insurance), murders as kidnappings (the victim’s really been killed by the person who reports the “kidnapping”).
The thing is, the patriarchy we live in has chosen to only make a huge deal out of the 2% or so false rape claims. This is because the myth of unstable women making droves of false rape claims serves the male narrative. Men had very little to gain from punishing rapists. Historically, so many men were rapists (even in their marriages), women accusers had to be discredited and ridiculed from the get go. “Women be crazy”. Most women believe it at some level themselves! It’s an ancient conspiracy, and it has to end.
Ankhel – I was just about to say what you have already so eloquently written.
Rape is falsely reported at the EXACT same rate as every other crime yet rape is the only crime where victims are disbelieved as a default. Is it a coincidence that sexual assault is a crime that is mostly suffered by women (yes, I realize that men are raped too)? I think not.
I’m confident that if we lived in a reality where rape was a crime perpetrated mostly *on* men rather than *by* men, victims would be treated much differently and there wouldn’t be thousands upon thousands of untested rape kits gathering dust.
Feel guilty since I have always believed women in the past and I’ll get yelled at but the fact that he claims to have never even met her gives me a little pause & the witness is her best friend and sister. Usually these scumbags claim that someone is a passing acquaintance or whatever to cover their ass but to state that he’s never even met her when he could be proved wrong by security camera footage, photos at a party with her or even the producer, the producer Kaine Harling who brought her over, and others. I’m glad the LAPD is investigating her accusation.
What gave me pause in that statement is exactly the opposite. He says he does not know this woman, not that he never met her. From what she describes in her story tjat statement may be even true. He did not know her, he just decided he wanted to fuck her once without all the unnecessary chit chat or promisses to call back after the sex.
You might be right about this being a technicality, but it can only blow up in his face. Nobody except maybe him and his army of devoted fans will take this as a valid explanation if somebody is able to testify they have as little as talked once. As somebody above said: He sure as hell didn’t consult a lawyer or a PR person.
So now to be the perfect victim, we need more “valid” witnesses? Or others to have gone through the same thing? No.
ikr? Who else would you turn to after being raped?
Of course the people she told are people close to her. If you were raped, assuming you didn’t feel you could go to the police, who would you tell? Your best friend and sister, or an unbiased third party you have no connection to?
She says she was taken to his house, she says that was the first time they met, and she says she was alone in the house with Ed and the producer. If that’s the case it’s very likely there’s no evidence they ever met. If Westwick ever had footage from his security cameras of her entering his property, I highly doubt he has it now. Same with any neighbours whose cameras might have picked something up.
She also says Westwick and the producer were friends, so it doesn’t really help her if they’ve been seen together. Ed didn’t claim not to know the producer.
Exactly.
He claims he never met her but he did know the producer she claims was her boyfriend and helped him r@pe her. It does help her if Ed was his friend and claims he doesn’t know her, while yes he might not have been close to his girlfriend but you can’t really claim you don’t know your friend’s girlfriends. He would at least have had to know of her. There are holes in his story, not hers.
That’s not really true. I didn’t meet many of my friends’ boyfriends until they’ve been dating at least a few months. At the very least until they’re pretty serious about said boyfriends. I just started seeing a guy a little over a month ago, and none of my friends even met him. They know OF him, of course, but they’ve never met. So no, I don’t find it weird at all that Ed might very well not know her even if she was dating a friend of his.
DiligentDiva – I hardly ever knew my coworkers and friends’ significant others. I don’t socialize much… Even if I know their name, I may never have seen them and wouldn’t recognize them. But it really depends on what kind of friends they are, how they interact, and how long she had been dating him.
So yes, it’s possible to not know the person a friend is dating or even married to.
I think the big issue is that if she, or any woman who brings allegations against someone in the position of power, is found to be lying, will we believe it or will we claim she was “paid off” or that there is a lot of shady shit behind the scenes? Westwick will always carry these allegations whether or not they are true.
Yep. Whatever the outcome, true or false, he is forever tainted in the court of public opinion.
Sex and child abuse accusations are the only crimes where the accused is guilty forever even when they are proven innocent, even if the accusation is false. The public will always side eye the accused. Always.
Are you guys forgetting that convicted rapists have literally won oscars? That they still go on to work with people. This whole “forever tainted” BS just isn’t true.
i think some of these comments are evidence of an alternate timeline actually existing, a timeline in which the likes of woody allen, polansky, casey affleck and their lot apparently doesn’t exist and doesn’t have a thriving career.
i want to live there as well.
Disgusting jerk! Obviously still in denial.
This could be difficult to disprove.
He may very well have met ber just this one time, and unless this Kaine Harling fellow steps up, and I wouldn’t hold my breath on that one, it is yet another case that can’t be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. She said, he said.
I believe her.
She gains nothing by making this up, and stands to lose everything she has worked her entire career to build. I wish her strength for tbe upcoming battle. When Harvey only had one accuser, he was a victim of a vicious smear job. When Bill Cosby had only one accuser, it was the same.
Westwick doesn’t strike me as being as ambitious as those two, so maybe it is still early enough in his raping career he doesn’t have a list of victims waiting to come forward. So…. no back up for Ms. Cohen. A lone woman is rarely believed. If they were, we wouldn’t have so many men that get away with it for DECADES before they are stopped.
“A lone woman is rarely believed. If they were, we wouldn’t have so many men that get away with it for DECADES before they are stopped. ”
Exactly. I dont understand the posters dont believing women.
QueenB, no one is saying “I don’t believe women.” I think some people are expressing doubt and a desire to find the unbiased truth of this case.
There is nothing wrong with that.
If this particular accusation is false, a bandwagon reaction does injustice to the solving the real issues and evolving as a society.
Women should be believed. But men should also not be painted with a red brush immediately. Right now, Mr Westwick is an accused rapist. I think because of what had happened with both Weinstein and Kevin Spacey, where victim after victim after victim have come forward, it can be easy to lose sight of the fact that someone can be accused of something of which they may not be guilty.
I’m not saying this guy is innocent or guilty. I am saying this needs to be investigated. Because I believe the victim’s statement warrants it and he needs to be treated like anyone else accused of a crime.
Imagine a woman is accused of a crime of which they are innocent, if you are having trouble understanding it.
I’m genuinely concerned by your reaction to this. I’d also like to politely remind you that not all rape victims are women and not all rapists are men.
It’s easy to believe when the monsters look like monsters. Harder when they are cute.
The ones you agree with aren’t going to try your convictions. It’s the grey area ones, the ones where you have believe in the accused, those are going to try your convictions. Are we truly in support of all women coming forward? Or just the ones who accuse men that we believe could be guilty.
BB, its often difficult for people who work in outreach to remove the gendered terms. This is because the overwhelming majority of sexual violence is perpetrated by men against women. This isn’t to say I agree with all blanket statements, or that men can’t be victims, but possibly to help you understand why someone may phrase things this way.
BB, I believe my point stands. A lone accuser isn’t believed, despite her gaining nothing from the accusation, and potentially losing everything she has worked for.
And yet we spend countless hours decrying the serial rapists that seem to be everywhere in Hollywood these days.
How could they have gotten away with it so long? Why didn’t anyone stop him? Why didn’t anyone report him? What is with the silence and complicity? Why, oh, why didn’t anyone come forward? If only they had, so many other women could have been spared!
Even knowing how rampant sexual violence seems to be in this industry everyone’s main concern isn’t for the health and well being of the victim, but the reputation of the accused. Gotta be fair, who’s to say, she may be making it all up…. amirite? Cause she gets all the ponies for doing that.
There is not going to be a trial, unless his friend decides to rat him out, which is unlikely. There will be no justice. It’s his word against hers, there is probably no physical evidence. So everyone can feel safe hedging their bets by spouting off about being fair to the accused.
I believe her. And you are right not all rapists are men. Just 93.7 percent of them. But sweet Jesus on a pogo stick, why is that relevant?
“Even knowing how rampant sexual violence seems to be in this industry everyone’s main concern isn’t for the health and well being of the victim, but the reputation of the accused. Gotta be fair, who’s to say, she may be making it all up…. amirite? Cause she gets all the ponies for doing that.”
This is statement is everything!
I don’t understand the non believers either, QueenB. It’s dissapointing. Men have enough support already – they ARE the power. Ed will be fine no matter what. Funny (sad) how many here refuse to believe their fave hot boy could do such a thing.😩
I’m with you, QueenB, happyoften and others.
Keep fighting the good fight, ladies.
@BB Carrots
I just wanted to say that I agree with the points you bring up and support you against people putting words into your mouth. It’s nice to know someone still believes in due process and the law.
@QueenB
I think you’re being overly emotional and not actually reading what people are writing, especially when they disagreed with your ridiculous “rapists are the reason why there’s innocent until proven guilty” comment. There is pretty much no commenter on this thread who was saying they actually think she’s lying about being raped. There are comments about acknowledging women lying about rape is a real, if extremely rare occurrence and wishing for an investigation into this matter. Those are not the same thing. If you can’t see the difference between them, it actually speaks more to your selective blindness than anyone else who has posted the comments. And your whole screw the due process of the law and hang these men now mentality is scarily militant and extremely similar to how a vigilante thinks. Everyone has the right to due process and a right to defend themselves – not just in rape cases, but in everything. And I have to say that I find your belief that anyone who protests your “I’m the judge, jury and executioner” mentality is somehow protecting rapists baffling and kind of scary. They’re protecting the right for a person to be considered innocent until proven guilty, which is one of the most important tenets of our society as far as I’m concerned. They’re not the ones wrong in this situation, QueenB. You are.
@Anne
I have come to know that Queen B is not a word mincer and firm in her beliefs. Sometimes I am like Whoa that was blunt, but I have gotten used to it because I know she is sincere.
If she is emotional about this maybe it is because she has first-hand experiences. Usually if someone answers and takes time to link they have been personally touched by the topic.
@Queen B
I don’t mean to discuss you like you aren’t here but I wanted to address what Anne said.
Another consideration to remember is that minority women have a harder time getting justice especially if the accuser is a white male. The police bend over backward to victim shame and disprove her story. How many times has the Duke Lacrosse team been dragged out by the right as an example? How many times is a white man convicted of raping a WOC? That is another discussion, but I wanted to the point that out.
It’s no accident that that the “I believe her” side of the debate always gets portrayed as the overly emotional, dangerous side while the “Innocent Until Proven Guilty! ‘Cuz women DO lie!!”- side always gets portrayed as the calm, logical side. Seems like it should be the other way around.
I do believe Katrina. That’s not the same as saying every man accused of a violent crime should be jailed (or worse) on the spot. But the idea that she’s lying seems more than a little far-fetched at this point.
In Trump’s America, QueenB’s controversial, 0% Cool Girl- way of saying “Believe the Victim” really doesn’t feel scary.
For me, it’s not a matter of believing her. I don’t NOT believe her, but we can’t call someone a rapist until there is some sort of substantiated evidence. He has released an outright denial, so we need to wait and see. We are now on notice that he may have done this.
“but we can’t call someone a rapist until there is some sort of substantiated evidence.”
Kristina Cohen is the evidence.
That’s simply not enough for me to ascribe guilt to someone who denies ever meeting her, Queen B. I agree with Baron. If he is lying then his story will unravel. The producer friend will help with that. Until then, she is not a liar, but it is an accusation and not a fact.
@QueenB Do you blindly trust everything you are told? Trail by media is a dangerous game. Your posts are so extreme on this thread. I would be curious your reaction if someone close to you was accused of something horrible…would you blindly believe the woman who was accusing him?
I don’t not believe her, but as I have said before, we need to tread carefully in this age of technology. You can destroy someone so quickly and easily by reporting on social media.
“@QueenB Do you blindly trust everything you are told? Trail by media is a dangerous game. Your posts are so extreme on this thread.”
Sometimes it takes extremism to get the point across, particularly in a society where the reaction to rape victims is typically one of disbelief and skepticism and the reaction towards rapists is one of concern and sympathy.
@ Kitten
And yet extremism is rarely what changes society. Do you think that Hitler changed anyone’s mind about the worth of Jewish lives by extremism? Who do you think was more effective? Martin Luther King Jr. or the Black Panther Movement? David Suzuki or Eco-terrorists?
In my opinion, extremism not only does it not get the point across, actually works against the person making the case. This is because while a reasonable person who has a disparate view (which is not even true in this case. Pretty much everyone on this thread believes that rape far too common and a very serious issue) can persuade other logical, reasonable people of their point of view, a person who goes for extremism automatically invokes an aggressive response from most people, even those who would otherwise at least partially agree with them. For example, you can see for yourself how many people QueenB’s comments agitated today. And I think you yourself know that most people who visit this site consider themselves to be feminists and hold women’s right causes close to their hearts. Exactly how many people did you think QueenB converted today with all of her efforts?
@Anne
I am not stalking you I promise. lol
Normally I would agree with you. But the statistics for rape are overwhelmingly against someone making a false accusation. This is what fosters silence. If a victim knows she will be believed she is more inclined to speak out.
Out of 100 rape victims, only 2-3 may be false. I weigh that fact and will support the victim first. Every single time. Even the 2 to 3 is only according to what police decide is false not by a court of law. One woman may just recant out of fear and shame or pressure.
We need rape victims to come forward to stop a predator from continuing to assault women sexually. If Harvey had been arrested in the 70s, imagine how many lives would have been drastically different.
@Kitten, extremism is problematic. I have to disagree with your post.
@magnoliarose, I agree. I support this woman and all women who have the courage to speak up. Hopefully someday it will become easier to come forward immediately, get the rape kit done, and have hard evidence. That won’t happen until we build a culture where we are putting away rapists and women feel more comfortable. This is a difficult time to navigate with social media.
@Anne-You are comparing well-known activists to an anonymous poster on a celebrity blog. False equivalence, much?
Also, I don’t think QueenB is trying to “convert” anyone nor is she trying to change the world.
And if you don’t get why instantly coming to the defense of men during a time when one in five female students are sexually assaulted while in college, one out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime.18,900 military members experienced unwanted sexual contact in 2014. 4.3% of active duty women and 0.9% of active duty men experienced unwanted sexual contact in FY14. Of the 18,900 survivors, 43% of females and 10% of males reported.
Seriously, what the f*ck was the “Me, Too” campaign even for? The response hasn’t changed. People still rush to the defense of the accused and criticize anyone who is unwilling to give the accused the benefit of the doubt.
Well forgive me if I don’t care. I’m not on a jury, I’m not a judge, and my opinion has literally ZERO bearing on Ed Westwick’s life so please spare me the lecture and the “extremely problematic” comments.
Also, part of the point of extremist and radical ideology is PRECISELY to make people like y’all uncomfortable, to push conventional thinking to the side, and to provoke a reaction. Judging by all the pearl-clutching in response to QueenB’s comments, seems like it was pretty effective on this thread.
And finally, you guys don’t have to “like” it, but you will never change my view that there is a place in our society for extreme/radical thinking.
@Kitten, you aren’t on trial here. No one is trying to change your view-as irresponsible as it may be–plain and simple, extremist and radical ideology is not “PRECISELy to make people like y’all uncomfortable” but to each their own.
There isn’t any “pearl-clutching” on my end in response to QueenB, just disbelief that her gut reaction is to take every woman at her word and “never trust men”.
@D Train: ‘There isn’t any “pearl-clutching” on my end in response to QueenB, just disbelief that her gut reaction is to take every woman at her word and “never trust men”.’
can you look at things in context? when it comes to rape, i’m with QueenB. i believe every victim, every woman, every child or every man that comes forward, and that’s that. i’m neither a laywer, a judge, a court or a policeman so my opinion is only based on moral standing.
some of you seem to have NO idea whatsoever how ridiculously important it is for anyone who had to go through the experience of being raped and/or assaulted, to know you’re believed. to know that yes, there might be very little that can be done to get justice (and i’m not making this up, this is a fact), but people believe you and stand beside you.
No queen bee she isn’t, she is the accuser and we don’t actually know the truth here yet.
I really hope to goodness that you are never on a jury.
@ell, I appreciate what you are are saying, I personally know someone who has been raped and I also was a student athlete at a university with an enormous scandal where the woman was lying. Because of my experience, I can say I support you, but I don’t blindly believe everything I hear. And trial by media is a dangerous.
@D-Train Did you go to Duke? It’s the only infamous case of a false rape accusation where the woman was blatantly lying that comes to mind to me.
I’m intrigued by his denial because it is so concrete and he left himself no wiggle room. We’ll see what the investigation yields.
I used to think Ed is hot now I think he is just a skeevy looking Jimmy Fallon. These seemingly nice men suddenly become predators when they reach some showbiz success. Like they are entitled to grope or rape women. Remember Henry Ian Cusick, Desmond of Lost? Yeah, the Scottish guy who played Jesus. I remember when he was just a struggling stage/tv actor in the UK and he was an all-around nice guy and wholesome family man. It was a shock for me to learn he sexually harrassed women on the set. Sports heroes are even worse. I am surprised not one athlete is being exposed in these wave of revelations.
Why would she lie about this? Why? Seriously. Why would she dig deep and relive the most degrading and dehumanizing and horrifying night of her life, just to open herself up to FB comments like “you’re a cheating whore” and “release the fucking location and time and date of the rape or you’re a fucking liar” and much, much worse?? She is literally retraumatizing herself in the name of speaking up. Why would she do that for fun? I. Believe. Her.
I think this is the first time even I’ve been let down by the tone of an article here on this topic. She doesn’t need corroborating women to have been assaulted.
The tone is bugging me too. I feel disappointed. I hope no one ever asks “why didn’t she come forward?” ever again.
+1! Exactly, the tone was surprising. Also, I don’t get why we “want him to be telling the truth”. I hear/read that a lot in these cases and it’s not about hoping an egregious thing didn’t happen, it’s about wanting to protect the fantasy of goodlooking/loveable men. I “want” her to be in the right, and going by all stats and logic, she VERY likely is.
With you guys. My gut is literally roiling. She was so specific. IDGAF how his statement was worded. And this is coming from someone who thought he had a certain charisma and Jolie Laide. I believe her.
I believe Kristina.
I also stand with QueenB. Queen, you are doing good work and people are being needlessly personal and vicious with you.
Stand up for those rapists, ladies, no one else will! Think of the poor molesters that someone thinks is guilty before their victims ever get discouraged enough to drop the case. Think of the rapists without Wankstain’s mossad contacts. Shed a tear for the Polanski’s and Allen’s of the world, who’ve been so reviled and hurt by their past actions. Twas just a moment, innocent until proven guilty, the supporters cry!
I would 100% rather support a victim and be wrong 3 our of 100 times than question and further hurt the victim 97 out of a 100 times. VICTIM for those who are so very set off by man vs woman regardless of the correctness of that shorthand.
Detritus: if my co-workers wouldn’t look at me like I was crazy, I’d be giving your comment a standing ovation right now (QueenB would also get an enthusiastic standing O).
Many of the comments on here make me want to bang my head against a wall. Internalized misogyny is a thing and it’s been displayed by so, so many commenters here today.
“I would 100% rather support a victim and be wrong 3 our of 100 times than question and further hurt the victim 97 out of a 100 times.”
So you’re fine with 3 men out of a hundred being falsely imprisoned for a crime they did not commit. That’s frightening.
@LV Do you even read, bro? if so, try again, because thats not what i said.
Enlighten me.
I said, and you even quoted me:
I’d rather be wrong 3/100 times.
Not, I’d rather 3/100 men are jailed. I’d rather be wrong in my opinion.
Because I’m tired and cranky with people like you, here’s Kitten’s more eloquent response:
” this is exactly what we keep repeating over and over again: our personal opinions on this board have no bearing on the LAPD’s investigation into Ed Westwick. We CAN’T ask that the LAPD “skip that step” nor WOULD we ask that. But I can almost guarantee you that this case won’t make it “through the legal system” as there won’t be enough to convince a DA to prosecute.
The likely outcome is that the LAPD will have a difficult time finding substantial evidence of what amounts to a *he said/she said* situation that occurred three years ago. Ed will walk away with negligible/fleeting damage to his career because everyone will forget about this in another week or two when the next rape victim comes forward to accuse a male celebrity.
In the meantime, Kristina will have been re-victimized all over again by having to relive the trauma of her story, by being forced to endure claims that she lied; that she put herself in that situation; that she just wanted the attention.
She will have been reminded over and over again that men are “innocent until proven guilty” and that her assaulter is a “well-liked guy”. She will have been chastised for hurting his career. She will be publicly shamed, blamed, ridiculed, disbelieved and condemned.
And Ed Westwick will simply go on with his life.
It’s a tale as old as mother*cking time.
So a question for you in response: if it plays out how I describe here will you just assume that Westwick is innocent since, you know, he was never actually proven guilty?”
Thank you for that detailed explanation and I’m sorry I’m making you cranky. I believe Kristina, I believe she was sexually assaulted, but this is a public forum, not a court of law. That’s all some of us are saying, even though the stats from false reporting are miniscule, we don’t lock someone up based on statistics.
I’m sorry to be cranky, it just gets very tiring sometimes to have to parse out the semantics when the argument is being stretched into absurdity. And it’s not fair to say I’m cranky with you, I’m cranky with your original comment, that was personal and unfair of my to say, I’m sorry.
No one of us believes someone should be locked up on opinion. But we are absolutely sick to death of the special standard sexual violence victims are held to., and the lack of public support they get in such an exhausting and retraumatizing time.
Sexual violence is not the same as burglary for the victim. And the res.ults of not being found correct in court are significantly different. And we treat sexual violence victims with more doubt that any other crime
Yes, it is statistically unlikely to be falsely accused of rape. BUT IT CAN STILL HAPPEN.
I am not talking about this specific case.
I truly hope those who have committed rape get their punishment. Unfortunately, it still has to be proven in the court of law
Everyone still has the right to due process. Believe me, until it happens to you, you have no idea.
Thank you for this comment. You said what I was gonna say in response to the thread above.
Sure. I have a male family member who was recently accused of rape by a mental health patient who was angry that she was not prescribed the xanax dose she wanted. She was there for benzo addiction. BTW, everyone at the rehabilitation facility knows he was not there at the time. It’s totally bogus and can ruin a person’s reputation. I don’t want this to cloud the cases where men truly DID rape. But if it can happen to this man, it can happen to anyone. We can’t simply “believe the woman” each time and hang the man.
Mental health patient is the underline in your assertion. Easily disproven is the other. That is nothing like a majority of rape accusations.
Why are ppl pointing out that “falsely accused men” are treated so unfairly and “until it happens to you, you dont know what its like to be falsel accused”? That happens maybe 0.1% of the time, and the remainding 99.9 % is women not being believed, men not being prosecuted, men paying their way out of rapecases etc etc etc.
WHY DO PPL TRY TO SHIFT THE FOCUS TO THE POOR FALSELY ACCUSED MEN?
THIS HAPPENS SOOOO RARELY IT IS INSANE! All women on here either have been raped or have a friend or more who have been raped/assaulted
How many on here has known a man falsely accused?
And out of those, did it ‘destroy his life’? Did he ‘live with the consequences of the false accusatin’?
Rape victims DO live with it forever, and their assailants are HARDLY EVER put to justice.
This is a forkin fact. To shift the focus to the poor falsely accused men, whom there are SO FEW OF, shows that you care more about 1 man for every 99 women
Well said.
Thank you!
“To shift the focus to the poor falsely accused men, whom there are SO FEW OF, shows that you care more about 1 man for every 99 women.”
EXACTLY. Thank you!
Thank you!
thank you. i am appalled at some of the comments in this thread.
Tell me about it.
So much effort for such a tiny minuscule group.
Is the Betsy Devos fan club on high alert? *eye roll*
Thank you exactly. The posters here who drag out the tired premises or rape myths and then detail that one time a guy was falsely accused and it ‘ruined’ his life… Its exactly what social norms and patriarchy has been taught for generations. Its also the reason why majority of women don’t come forward.
If we really cared about helping women and children and the men who have been rated, we should feel liks ‘we believe you’ is more powerful and 90% of the time a more realistic approach.
Preach.
Thank you, Kathrine! It’s so sad how many of the (mostly female) commenters here worry more about the accused man than they do about the woman. Women get raped all the time. We KNOW this from our own lives. Let the natural assumption be that women are telling the truth about it.
Thank you. I too am appalled by some of the comments here.
I am not on Ed’s jury. I do not have to hold my opinion of ‘is he guilty or not’ to the standard of beyond all reasonable doubt. My opinion has no bearing on his right to due process.
I. Believe. Her. Statistics show that false accusation is extremely rare.
Saying, well, we have to consider him innocent until proven guilty is is essence saying you do not believe the victim and that she is lying. And I am not going to be participating in rape culture by disbelieving her.
Katrine – it’s like any statistic. When it actually happens to you, the fact that it’s a one in a thousand chance doesn’t matter.
My neighbor was mistakenly identified as a rapist. He went through the court process and a jury was convinced he didn’t do it. It was dark, the woman simply made a mistake. Being cleared is important not only for the accused, but also for public safety – because if he didn’t rape that woman, somebody else did who was still on the loose.
But of course he was only cleared in the courts. His family went through hell for months while waiting for trial and still was going through hell afterward because too many people think if you are accused of something, you must have done it no matter what the jury decided. His wife and young children were also affected. Besides the expenses wiping out any savings, he quit his job, they sold their house, and moved somewhere else trying to forget about it. Except the story will probably follow them.
If we really followed the innocent until proven guilty principle and stuck to it, life would have been very different for that family, one in a thousand though they may have been. Their pain is very real and life-long and acknowledging that does not trivialize the pain of the woman who was raped.
Posting a reminder for due process is NOT shifting focus from the terribleness of rape. We are simply responding to those on the forum automatically coming to the conclusion that the accused is guilty without due process.
Being accused of rape can ruin a person’s reputation and life. The point is to put them through due process to see if they are in fact guilty. Like someone else wrote, statistics mean nothing until you ARE the .1%! Then it is 100% for you.
Well then M,
Harvey Weinstein is not a rapist.
Bill Cosby is not a rapist.
Kevin Spacey didn’t assault anyone.
Woody Allen never touched his daughter. (The courts actually let him go!)
Bryan Singer is not a rapist pedophile.
Baylor University never covered up systemic abuse of its female student body.
Brock Turner got what he deserved with his light sentence, the courts passed down the verdict- it must be true.
Do you not see the fallacy in your statement as well? 1 woman or 100 we should support victims that come forward not the ‘I believe you but….’
Or just have the stones to say you don’t believe her. Anything except saying “I believe her” implies disbelief. So just say it.
In answer to your question.
Yes.
And Yes.
I do know someone falsely accused. And in social media too.
It was not pretty. The effect on his life was not pretty.
You are all guilty of replacing misogeny with Misandry and you are no better than the men you propose to hate.
Lol,sunshine, if I only had the power to replace a structural and institutionalized bias like misogyny. While I was in there I’d replace the racism as well.
Believing the victim, and not trusting men about sexual violence claims are good statements because of the current social climate based on stats.
If that climate changes, the stance needs to change, because it’s not about hating men, it’s about understanding that the vast majority of sexual violence is perpetrated by men, and the vast majority want to save their asses.
But sure, write it off as misandry.
M: So you are saying that you are only guilty if a court of law deems you so? Well i am sorry but i have to whole heartedly disagree! The courtsystem is built by men for men and not to favor victims of crimes perpetrates BY men. I know a handful of women that have been drugraped, or abused as kids. That was never reported. So in your world, those men are innocent? Gods good children?
So I do not buy your premise at all.
Sunshine: surely this person is a troll?
I AM better than the men i talk about. Rapists etc..? Yes i am. I fx have never raped anyone on my 30 years on earth. And you know what? Its been super easy not to.
I too wish i had the power to swap the entire worlds misogyny with misandry, poof, but the thing is that just like unicorns are figments of our imagination, so is misandry.
I think I read somewhere that one of her witnesses was a whistleblower on another harassment case with a producer? If so… small world.
Ed’s denial was so firm. Either he’s a raging narcissist who actually believes he is untouchable and doesn’t need to defend himself. Or, he actually didn’t do it. This will come out somehow. In the age of constant surveillance and social media, whether or not her story checks out shouldn’t be too hard to discern.
I don’t assume guilt or innocence based on almost no information from people I don’t know. Yes, it’s good to believe the victim, but I think for that to be true there has to be some context. Like, evidence or a personal relationship. A random actress on the internet claiming an actor raped her and providing no evidence doesn’t get my immediate trust. I support her persuing her case, and hope she’s taken seriously and not silenced, but I’ll await judgment on Ed. I’d want people to do the same for me.
It’s not a “small world”, the fellow r@pe victim was an actress just like her. We literally just learned with Spacey and Weinstein, and all the other various other that producers/directors/actors think they are entitled to r@pe people. It’s not a small world, it’s the system. Hollywood consistently tells important men that they are entitled to r@pe whoever please, whether it be other men, women, or children.
It’s not shocking at all that she has a friend who is also a victim of r@pe. 1 in 6 women are r@ped.
Her friend Blaise Lipman is a male.
Sorry for the mistake. I assumed it was woman, but yea he’s an actor. Which again gender doesn’t seem to matter in this cases. Powerful men in Hollywood commit r@pe.
The point of one in six women are raped in their lifetime still stands. It’s not shocking that a guy would know more than one woman who was raped, and be asked to come forward, as women are not believed.
I almost wonder if she was roofied or something. It obviously wasn’t powerful enough to knock her out 100% but the whole thing about her being so tired that she needed to nap at a stranger’s house they were only going to be at for 20 mins was weird. I bet the producer boyfriend took casual hookups to Ed’s all the time for the same purpose.
Yes, and I really, really hope that other women come forward. It will just take one or two for his whole denial to be blown to shreds. That is really the pattern we are seeing here, with Weinstein, Spacey etc…it is never just one victim.
Let’s get some facts straight, as always forms like this run wild. Her story doesn’t have the “holes” people claim it does.
She claims he raped her 3 years ago, that would be in the 2014-2015 timeline depending on when it happened, she did name the producer (Despite people going on and on about it, literally he didn’t r@pe her so idk why you want to force her to name him, but will just do anything to make r@pe victims seem less believable) as Kaine Harling, Ed Westwick sent out a tweet to him in April of 2015. So it does seem like Ed is probably lying about knowing her, he was friends with her boyfriend at the time. Yea he didn’t have to claim to be good friends with her but to deny her completely knowing her is fishy when he did know her boyfriend.
Kristina was aid coming forward by her friend, Blaise Godbe Lipman who is a fellow r@pe victim and has accused her attacker publicly (the said attacker has another victim come forward which gave weight to Lipman’s claim). There is no reason to think either woman are lying about their cases. Kristina’s sister also has supported her through this.
Ed’s roommate at the time claims he never knew Kristina, however, it should be pointed out that he was an executive producer/writer and might just not have been there at the time it took place.
So yea unless you take the roommate’s word as gospel truth, then there really aren’t any holes in this story. Sure we have no proof, but there are no holes either. She’s claiming he r@ped her, there is a connection between them with her then boyfriend, she has the support of other r@pe victims.
YES bring those facts!
He’s a lying bastard. Nice try-your done Ed.
All I know is, something about this guy makes me want to punch him in the face.
so he denies it and now people are giving him the benefit of the doubt because not guilty until proven? are you lot serious? what did you expect him to say, exactly? weinstein is also denying having anything but consensual sex, but i suppose the fact westwick is younger and better looking changes everything.
so disappointed by some of these comments.
And surprisingly none of them are pointing out the holes in HIS story. Instead, they shift and focus on her, why did she fall asleep at his house, why doesn’t she provide “evidence”, why doesn’t she name the producer?
Everything is put on the victim.
exactly! some of the comments upthread are really upsetting, they want her to prove it, and they disregard the fact these things are ridiculously hard to prove even when you go the police immediately.
No. If he admitted to consensual sex then that very much opens the door to rape. Rapists often claim forcing a woman is consensual. I don’t appreciate the tone of assuming that we are silly girls fooled by so-called good looks(looks like an elf to me). He denies it and she alleges it. The truth will come out and his career and life will be destroyed, as is deserved. I am a woman, but first and foremost I am a black woman, therefore I do not play the, “he/she said it so you did it” game. That line of thinking has done irreparable damage to black people. As I said previously, I do not call accusations a lie, but I do not call them facts.
because rapists never lie, right?
here’s the thing; i will always remember what annabella sciorra said in the ronan farrow article. paraphrasing, the reason she did not come forward was because now everyone would know. she’d meet randos, and they’ll know what she went through, and the idea of that was too upsetting. i don’t think it’s very likely that a woman would put her name and face to such a story, let the whole world know what happened to her, facing the consequences of people calling her a liar and a whole lot of misogynist names, if that story weren’t true. she has nothing to gain from this.
I don’t think it’s likely either, but the point is that we cannot say someone’s word is the end all, be all. To some ears this reads that rapists are the ones who should be protected, which, no. He has claimed to have NEVER met her. That assertion will be his downfall because now she doesn’t have to prove rape, just that they actually met. This is why I feel this story is different than some of the others.
Why are you not standing up for the rights of men?? They walk down the street and between rescuing puppies and helping old ladies with their groceries they get accused of rape. SCANDAL!
lol exactly. i also love that some of the comments are like “let’s not pretend it doesn’t happen it’s like 1%!! against what? 99%? it’s depressing.
I think (and I hope) most of the “innocent until proven guilty” comments above refer to the abstract concept and not to this case because the borderline unhinged comment that started the discussion revolved around the general concept, too.
Ell, for me, as a human being, I think it’s far worse to be accused of a crime you didn’t commit, than to be the victim of a crime that you didn’t get justice for. That’s the cornerstone of our justice system, and I believe in it with the whole of my being. I know that rape is hard to prove, but if one guy that didn’t commit rape gets put behind bars, then the system has failed. She’s going to have to provide evidence to further her case. I, personally, think she will, and justice will prevail. Be it a conviction, or just the end of his career. But until then, I’m personally not going to play judge, jury, and executioner. I’m going to wait to pass judgment. A story on Facebook is not enough for me. If it’s enough for you, then that’s you. People see justice differently.
“Ell, for me, as a human being, I think it’s far worse to be accused of a crime you didn’t commit, than to be the victim of a crime that you didn’t get justice for.”
You can’t be serious? Have you ever experienced sexual violence or rape? I have. Having to watch my assailant carry on with his life like nothing happened actually traumatised me more than assault itself. It literally almost killed me.
As for the rest of your comment, I just can’t fathom having that much faith in a system that is as entrenched in patriarchy & white supremacy as the justice system is.
“Ell, for me, as a human being, I think it’s far worse to be accused of a crime you didn’t commit, than to be the victim of a crime that you didn’t get justice for.”
i can’t abide these blanket statements. no, no and no again. i literally don’t care to discuss this in general terms, i want to talk of the situation at hand.
“I, personally, think she will, and justice will prevail.”
except when it comes to rape, it rarely ever does. this is a fact.
“I’m going to wait to pass judgment. A story on Facebook is not enough for me. If it’s enough for you, then that’s you. People see justice differently.”
this attitude is one of the reason why sexual assault victims are afraid to report it; their story just isn’t enough.
some of you need to think long and hard about your attitude towards these crimes.
I’m sorry what?! Are you actually, really saying it’s worse to be a accused of a crime than an actual victim of one. Esp., something as soul destroying as sexual assault?
You’re actually saying this?!
Alright. Time for me to leave this thread before my head explodes.
Maybe I worded it poorly. I wasn’t meaning from an emotional standpoint, or which is more traumatic, but from a societal standpoint and for the integrity of our justice system. You’d rather have guilty men/women walking free, than innocent people dead or behind bars. Many social issues survive on this principal. This doesn’t just apply to rape. And it isn’t a men vs. women issue only. I believe in this. I believe that people should be given their day in court and are allowed to defend themselves without bias. Again, if that’s not your belief, then we differ.
And I’m aware that rape is hard to prove. But, still, I do think it needs to be proven. That’s just how it has to be for me. You can’t put a guy away for 20 years without some concrete evidence. As sad as that may seem, I think it’s the right way. The world isn’t perfect, and I think proving rape is just a cruel reminder of that, but again, you need to come with some evidence. As I’ve said like 100 times, I think she absolutely will. She has a witness.
@LOLADTH
Hugs. Your statement is what makes me fight so hard in defense of victims. Paz is a good example. It is heartbreaking.
“And I’m aware that rape is hard to prove. But, still, I do think it needs to be proven. That’s just how it has to be for me.”
There’s not a female in your life you would automatically believe if they came to you with a rape accusation only? None?
Lady D, yes of course I’d believe my friends and family, and I’d do everything I could to seek justice for them. I’m not a monster. I never said I didn’t believe Kristina, btw, just for this to proceed, then Ed will have to be given his day in court.
I’ll throw a question back at you… Do you think that if she provides no more evidence than her Facebook account, that Ed should be convicted?
@Originaltessa we’re talking about believing & supporting victims as a MORAL standard not a LEGAL one so the only purpose for your arguments is derailment. I’ve yet to see anyone suggest that he be hanged or thrown into a dungeon without due process.
@MAGNOLIAROSE, thank you so much ❤💗 not just for your kind words, but for all the great work you do in threads like these. It’s your kindness, patience & eloquence that keeps me from ripping my hair out/losing all faith in humanity.
ETA: What Kitten said. EVERY DAMN THING KITTEN SAID.
Honest question to everyone- she says she was raped, you believe her (as do I) but what’s the next step? Conviction on her word alone? There seems to be a lot of anger towards people wanting the case to work it’s way thru the legal system. Are you suggesting we skip that step?
But this is exactly what we keep repeating over and over again: our personal opinions on this board have no bearing on the LAPD’s investigation into Ed Westwick. We CAN’T ask that the LAPD “skip that step” nor WOULD we ask that. But I can almost guarantee you that this case won’t make it “through the legal system” as there won’t be enough to convince a DA to prosecute.
The likely outcome is that the LAPD will have a difficult time finding substantial evidence of what amounts to a *he said/she said* situation that occurred three years ago. Ed will walk away with negligible/fleeting damage to his career because everyone will forget about this in another week or two when the next rape victim comes forward to accuse a male celebrity.
In the meantime, Kristina will have been re-victimized all over again by having to relive the trauma of her story, by being forced to endure claims that she lied; that she put herself in that situation; that she just wanted the attention.
She will have been reminded over and over again that men are “innocent until proven guilty” and that her assaulter is a “well-liked guy”. She will have been chastised for hurting his career. She will be publicly shamed, blamed, ridiculed, disbelieved and condemned.
And Ed Westwick will simply go on with his life.
It’s a tale as old as mother*cking time.
So a question for you in response: if it plays out how I describe here will you just assume that Westwick is innocent since, you know, he was never actually proven guilty?
Absolutely not. I understand that the inability to prosecute and convict due to lack of evidence is not by any stretch of the imagination proof of innocence. I don’t know what the answer is to a case like this and I didn’t find it in your reply either.
Prosecution needs to proceed, but certain lines of questioning and tactics need to be banned from these cases.
Or there need to be stand ins for testimony.
Basically there needs to be more protections for survivors in the reporting and judicial process, and there needs to be more training. I don’t think juries should be made of ‘our peers’ either, I would prefer paid experts from a pool.
There needs to be a way to weed out spurious accusations, but I’m not sure how to go about that.
Thanks for the reply. I’m truly looking for answers. If it comes across as not honoring victims or looking out for accusers that was not my intention at all, as Kitten apparently thinks. New legal ways need to be established to get justice for victims.
She will be able to describe his home in detail. That alone will put a hole in his ridiculous “I don’t know her” story. More women will come forward. Give it a few days.
If his home hasn’t been redecorated. If he still lives in the same place.
I hope the truth will come out and I believe her. Just no judgement yet.
“She will be able to describe his home in detail.”
And if she isn’t it still won’t mean she’s not telling the truth. Some people are not good with remembering or describing details.
Yeah, I am not particularly observant and my memory is awful. If I had been to a house one time, 3 years ago…I would not be able to remember much, unless there were things that were particularly unique, like a huge in wall fish tank or something.
And it is possible she was roofied. And even if not, it was a traumatic experience. I would not be surprised if she couldn’t recall details of the home itself.
I think so too if what has been said about him in the past is any indication.
Yes, any details about the inside of the house will help.
It’s ok to just withhold judgment and not assume anything about who is lying and who is not. More information will come out eventually.
Although it’s rare for a woman to lie about rape, it isn’t 0% rare. I know at least two people who lie so much that this wouldn’t be an unlikely thing for them to do – either outright lie or partially lie. They live in their own fantasy world and will look you straight in the eye as they spin their tale. People who don’t know them believe their stories. But pathological liars are rare also.
At least the current climate is making guys think twice before saying or doing anything! Staying quiet never worked. So the guys will just have to get used to it.
Maybe we should all start wearing bodycams…. It would make things a lot easier. Rape is so often done without witnesses. If she had a forensic exam at the time, that will be very helpful. But many times that doesn’t happen for various reasons. Telling other people can help if they are willing to testify to the conversation.
But sexual predators tend to be repeat offenders. That isn’t always obvious until much later, when the dam bursts and other accusers step up.
Yep. let’s wait and see if there were more victims of Westwick. Let’s wait for more evidence and more details.
Though honestly I doubt that Westwick would be convicted even if he had done it: it was quite a long time ago and some evidence might be missing. Sad, really.
So far I believe her but I refuse to pass a final judgement yet.
How many victims do you need? Is one person being raped not enough anymore? Now you need a whole group before your claims seem believable?
why do we need more victims?? why do have to wait to form and opinion just because he’s saying it’s not true??
i feel for this woman. imagine having the courage to come out after so many years, your assailant is like ‘nah don’t know her’, and everyone’s like well he said he doesn’t know her so. i don’t understand what people expected him to say? he probably knows she has zero evidence because it happened years ago and they only met once. maybe he even moved house so it’s just whatever to him. he thinks he can get away with it (bc lbr, most rapists do get away!), so he’s gaslighting everyone.
I am exhausted about this. I just can’t anymore.
Either my sarcastic, sharp azs tongue will get the better of me, or my head will explode.
Because you know, 10 out of a thousand need advocates desperately. Men have it so HARD poor dears.
Julianna- no, more victims are not essential. But more corroboration from any quarter will help strengthen her case. She can’t just say he raped her. That’s just the start of an investigation looking for evidence of any kind that helps support her testimony. She needs to build a case in as many different ways as possible. Interrogating the guy who took her there is a start. Likewise for anybody she told about it. Any details she remembers about him or his home. Or about the neighbors.
That would be true for other crimes as well. You can’t just accuse someone. Innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt is the way our system works. We decided a long time ago that it is better for a guilty person to go free than for an innocent person to be punished for something he or she didn’t do. A fact all of us should be grateful for because it could be us in the county jail waiting for trial some day. When that system breaks down, it’s very bad. Just ask anyone of African ancestry.
Like in The Circle?
I believe her.
What does it benefit her to make up a story about BEING RAPED?
I still believe her. Full stop.
If I’m not mistaken she said after Ed suggested they have a threesome she said she was tired (as a way of being able to leave the house..not that she was actually tired) she was then directed into ed’s guestbedroom where her boyfriend said wait like 20 mins. I didn’t get the impression thst she was drugged bc it seemed like she went to lay down to escape the awkward situation then fell asleep as the time that passed was more than 20 mins. Just clarifying for people who said she may have been drugged..she never said she drank, ate or had anything given to her.
Yeah his statement def seemed very much his own and not directed by a lawyer.
Well, if Ed directed her into the bedroom instead of letting her leave then I think this might be coercion + rape or deception + rape. It is shady as hell to not let a woman go home when she says she is tired / or when she wants to go home.
thank you I didn’t think of that angle.
What the actual f*ck are some of these comments? I feel like I just took a wrong turn into mra-ville. If innocent until proven guilty is the moral standard around here, why do we still consider Nate Parker a rapist & O.J. Simpson a murderer, despite both being acquitted? Why the sudden leniency when it’s an attractive white dude?
You answered your own question.
But yes, thank you for what you say here.
I’m not white so his race means nothing to me as far as his innocence. In fact, because of my race I’m far more of a “wait for more details” person. And actually, I’m less sympathetic to white men in general, sorry, but true. When she drops more details to police then we will know. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with taking her word and awaiting more details before he is branded as a rapist. I haven’t seen anyone say she’s lying. I won’t feel guilty at all if more evidence against him comes out because I haven’t said that he didn’t do it. I’m saying that we won’t KNOW until that happens.
Also I got to thinking. Who of the men in Hollywood and possition of power actually did stand with women/victims of sexual abuse since this whole pile of dirt was dumped on us? I am not talking about those obligatory statements from actors “what….not acceptable. I have a daugter/wife and I stand with women…zzzz…” really how many men actually do. Ronan Farrow who even after his last piece is saying he won’t let that slide. I know Clooney tried but looks like gave up the moment the promotion of his new movie ended. Tom Hanks gave it some more attention than just a tweet. But what is expecially troubling – there are no stories of men in Hollywood steping up and protecting their costars from the past 30 years that Harvey harrased and abused women. The most some of them did was admitt to hearing rumours. I know this post is not exactly about that but it is just so painful to realize that men will only respond when their own pants are on fire or when they feel like that won’t harm their own interests.
Lin Manuel-Miranda
I’m still leaning toward believing her.
That said a small objection to the phrasing in this article, “…waited several hours before he issued a simple denial…” Maybe it took hours for him to become aware of it? I would imagine there are many reasons anyone would not jump on something said about them on social media the minute it was posted. Like having a meal, a job, a life… One might not be constantly searching all media for references to oneself and it might take a bit for word to get to you.
Let’s wait and see. Let’s not yet pass judgement on either one.
Let’s wait for and hear the details.
And if the LAPD investigates but doesn’t come up with enough evidence to prosecute?
Will people here just assume that she must have lied then?
Will people here just assume that Ed must be innocent?
It’s always the same commenters that put in WORK on these threads. Thank you, ladies, y’all give me hope on hopeless threads like this one.
I was feeling pretty good this morning after all the dem wins, so thanks, Celebitchy commenters, for reminding me that the world is still a flaming dumpster pile of misogyny. We hit all the “innocent until proven guilty” and “well false accusations DO happen” statements, but I was concerned we were going to miss our Rape Apologia Bingo until we got a “Univeristy of Virginia” (Duke lacrosse team would have also sufficed).
Hugs LooseSeal. I’m so in need of one right now meself.
Hugs back! This has been a depressing thread.
My favorites are the patronizing exhortations to not be so emotional, personally. The calm reminders that while statistically rare, false accusations do happen, and to wait for the investigation to play out. As though this situation, Ms. Cohen, the rapist and his buddy, is going to play out in some magical fashion where the perponderance of the evidence will prove he is guilty.
There is her claim she was raped by him, and his denial. You can choose to believe her, or not. That’s about all we are going to get in this case.
She is lying, or she is telling the truth. You can bloviate about his rights to a fair trial, to be considered innocent until proven guilty, but I would ask why Mr. Weinstein isn’t being given the same treatment? Spacey? They deserve a fair hearing as well, no?
This isn’t a courtroom, we are not jurors. This is a gossip blog on the internet. No opinion we hold matters one whit where it concerns Westwick’s rights. And yet we can’t even manage to say we think she is telling the truth, Ed Westwick raped her, without being concern trolled as to her rapist’s reputation. With the occasional smug reminder not to be so emotional and irrational about it. Ugh. Not that they don’t believe her, but…. what about his rights!!?!
Why is it so hard to say “I believe her”? I’m officially done.
I’m one of the people upthread who said that, while vanishingly rare, false accusations do occur, and related a story. The reason I remember this happening, in some detail, is BECAUSE it is so unusual. I worked in sports and, sad truth be told, I heard so many stories/accusations/actual prosecuted cases of sexual assault, rape and/or harassment by athletes, coaches and co-workers that I’m certain I’ve forgotten many, if not most of, the specifics of them. Simply because they were, and remain, so disgustingly commonplace.
I ALSO said, and believe fully, that not being tried in a court of law does NOT equal innocent. Not by a long shot. And, again, based on her statement, I, personally, believe Ms. Cohen. The (true) fact that a teeny, tiny number of people make false allegations should NOT in any way be construed as being equivalent to saying, “all (or even most) women are liars.”
I think it’s asinine when people argue someone is trying to “get famous” by alleging rape. Not least of which because it’s NEVER happened. No one is honored and uplifted for sharing this painful, private information; Quite the opposite actually.
Victims do not have to be perfect, or to not misstate any small detail, in order to be believed. Nor must men be evil, mustache-twirling villains in order to have done very, very bad things. Men who are nice to their moms, wives, daughters and puppies can be rapists. Good-looking, rich and famous men who have “no problem” getting “anyone they want” can, and all too often do, turn predatory.
Wanting to be clear that there are no absolutes in crime reporting is not the same thing as casting doubt or aspirations on victims.
When there are increasing numbers of accusers, each one supports the story told by the previous one. So many women have come out with consistent and plausible stories about Weinstein, Bill Cosby, Uncle Terry, Donald Trump that I have no trouble believing that it all happened as they say even without a court trial. They still need as much corroborating evidence as they can manage to provide, particularly if they want to pursue it in the courts. But the testimony of so many people will be powerful.
Not so easy when there is just one accuser. That doesn’t mean the accuser is lying, it just means it is harder for a stranger to know if anything is missing or unbelievable or suspect about the story. It is normal and reasonable to ask such questions.
We always have to try to figure out the pros and cons of believing anybody, whether accuser or accused. What do they have to gain if they lie? What do they have to lose? Can they come up with details that will strengthen their case, that will be verifiable? If the accused denies it- how plausible is his story? What would confirm it? What would blast it to bits? Is one of them being consistent while the other one changes the story every hour?
The fact that lying about rape is quite rare and usually not beneficial for the accuser is not good news for the accused. But holding back on absolute judgment until we have more information about the case is not a bad thing. Reserving judgment doesn’t mean you think the woman is lying. It means just what it says, holding off until there is more information. Just like we wish President Tweeter would do.
Oh yeah “subtle implications of female hysteria” is totally the free space. Because if we discuss the systemic silencing of victims with a modicum of emotion then obviously we can’t be trusted to engage in logical discourse.
I have no doubt you mean well, and you said many things I can agree with. But, for all of the words, “I believe her” wasn’t among them. So I have to ask… if you know false reporting is astonishingly rare, and if you know even benign looking people can do awful things, and if you know there is nothing to be gained by her making a false claim…. why not? Why can’t it be stated that you believe her? I am genuinely curious.
1 in 6 women experience rape or attempted rape in their lives. 2/3 of them go unreported. Out of the 1/3 of them that do report, there is a 2% chance of conviction. So the math is on siding with the accused if you are waiting for the outcome of a trial to debate her believability.
Women don’t lie much about rape, and men don’t have to worry much about being convicted for it.
All the concern about his being innocent until proven guilty is for naught. He won’t be proven guilty. I’d lay money on it. I still believe her.
@happyoften, assuming you’re responding to me, I did say that I believe her. Both in the comment above and in my original one — I said it in so many words: ” I, personally, believe Ms. Cohen” — and I’m definitely not scared to, or avoiding, saying it. I’m not worried about men’s reputations. I don’t think false reporting is an epidemic, or even a blip on the overall radar of the wide landscape of sexual assault. I also, repeatedly, said I’m not looking for a court conviction to be convinced of guilt, as getting a conviction for sexual crimes is extremely difficult; which is a whole other problem our legal system desperately needs to address.
I was simply, initially, responding to the idea that there is NEVER a false accusation. I don’t think those sorts of dismissible false absolutes are helping. I think the best way to be strong, and better than the “other side,” is acknowledging truth, even if it’s occasionally uncomfortable and/or counterintuitive. Ignoring facts that don’t fit a thesis is not ever how I want to operate and I think, in the long run, it hurts an argument. What I see in these comments aren’t a lot of people saying they think Ed Westwick is innocent; on the contrary, the argument quickly become about that absolute: there is NEVER a false report. It distracts. It allows side chatter to overwhelm the much more important story. It paves way for the, “but you were wrong about A so …” line of illogical rationalization.
So, yes, some tiny fraction of women aren’t truthful in these claims, but THE FACT is that it is infinitely more likely for someone to stay quiet about real assault, than to come forward with false claims. I think acknowledging the former, makes the latter far more convincing to those we must, unfortunately, convince.
For hundreds, nay thousands, of years, victims have been beaten down, literally and figuratively, by those in power, particularly when it comes to crimes of a sexual nature. They have been belittled, demeaned, insulted, disbelieved…and far, far worse than that. While I certainly relate to the temptation to treat as we’ve been treated, that doesn’t really further the cause, at least in my mind.
Know better. Do better. Be better.
Sadly a lot of “men” in his position think any woman should be honored to have someone like him sleep with them. No way it’s rape, it’s me! I believe her. An entitled spoiled rich boy wants to f*ck you, no isn’t an option. If you read the story further, her at the time boyfriend told her to keep quiet.
I’m merely asking, so don’t bite my head off. Has the producer ex-boyfriend commented yet? She named him in the police report – Kaine Harling.
As more of Ed’s victims come forward over the next few days I hope that everyone upthead playing devil’s advocate/poor falsely accused men BS will eat their words.
I believe her.
You kidding? They’ll just move on to the next rape victim.
I believe her.
Ok, so he says he has never met her. Either side could be lying. I’m waiting for receipts. He didn’t say he’s innocent and it was consensual, he said it never happened. And if he did it, there will likely be more victims, or this producer will be found to have done this before or there will be something to show she was in his place etc.
Do her 2-3 corroborating witnesses and recently filed police report count as receipts?
Corroborating as in they were there?
She has no witnesses, unless you count the producer. A witness saw the crime. She has people she spoke to shortly after. Not witnesses and they shouldn’t be referred to as such, but corroborating evidence.
The fact she has no witnesses doesn’t mean the attack didn’t take place but no, at this stage it’s not receipts. Neither is filing a police report. The result of that police report will be interesting.
i don’t understand all the sudden outpouring of sympathy for ed… and some are now even accusing Kristina for lying?
what in the fresh hell happened to my Celebitches?
first, what benefit for Kristina for lying? about rape on such a public forum AND naming names? she’s already been vilified for stepping out “not immediately”. she’s already being twisted here and there by ed’s fans… secondly, surely there’s no benefit at all for lying because if caught lying she will be “the woman who cried rape” tag on her! who would want the equivalent of career suicide crashing and burning your own self in such a public way?
thirdly, Ed will be okay however way you look or try to logify… if he’s telling the truth then he is telling the truth. if he’s lying… well, he’s a white man in Hollywood…
so given all the pros and cons, why are we not unequivocally siding with Kristina? she’s got EVERYTHING to lose and him.. meh.
all this subconscious mysoginy is frightening me tbh.
you say: he is innocent until proven guilty
i also say: she is truthful and to be believed and supported unequivocally until proven a liar.
please don’t derail the conversation and make it into a #NotAllMen or #AllLivesMatter… stay focused ladies…
First of all let me stress that I was as appalled by a lot of the stories coming out as anybody else as sexual assaults and rape are horrendous crimes.
But, I do actually know a man who spent several months on remand in jail having been accused of raping a woman who had done this about an innocent man before. When the case was thrown out he got no recompense for the loss of earnings or damage to his family. I know these cases are a minority but I am very worried that the court of public opinion may ruin innocent people’s careers. This would be no help to the many women who have been damaged
Again I stress that I hope any guilty man gets exactly what he deserves and hope that the current climate helps to stop men in positions of power from using it too their advantage sexually. That whole culture stinks.
I am in a familiar situation. I am friends with one of the accused Duke Lacrosse rapists. I cannot even put into words the type of hell their family went through during the entire ordeal. Despite the charges being dropped, his life will never be the same. He will forever be known as “the Duke Lacrosse guy.”
I believe her. The opening sentence of her statement makes it clear all the recent stories have made her finally feel confident enough to share her story- a feeling a lot of women are experiencing right now. I don’t believe she has any reason to lie or anything to gain from lying.
As someone who pays close attention to the way things are worded I can’t help but notice. He does not technically say he never met her – he says he doesn’t know her.
It’s funny how so many of you here have a hard time believing a young White actor would rape somebody and would rather discuss the possibility of a false accusation. Nothing has changed after Weinstein.
To many of us it us nothing whatsoever to do with the colour of an accused’s skin.
And why is it that an alleged victim’s detailed thorough account holds less weight than some flippant response posted on Instagram. Our society is so incredibly misogynistic.
Not disputing the misogyny and I don’t say an alleged victim holds less weight but it is obvious that any man accused is likely to say he is innocent. And sometimes he actually will be.
Try Googling Christopher Jefferies to see what damage the court of public opinion can do.
It works both ways. This woman voluntarily subjected herself to the court of public opinion despite knowing people would deliberately be looking to invalidate her story.
I’m not even going to tell you to google what happens to sexual assault victims who aren’t believed.
I believe her.
Mob justice via character assassination is not some evolved way of dealing with accusations of rape or sexual harassment. I will be the first to contend that men are more of a liability to humanity than are women, but two wrongs don’t make a right.
Honestly, this “mob justice” people get so concerned about is a total dog whistle. Who’s being destroyed by this “mob justice?” Weinstein? Cosby? Spacey? Troback? Ratner? There seems to be a pretty big consensus that those are serial abusers who have used the system to their advantage. Who else? Roman Polanski? Not even ACTUAL justice got him. Johnny Depp? No his problems are financial. Woody Allen? R Kelly? Casey Affleck? Ben Affleck? Terrence Howard? Jared Leto? Bryan singer? David O. Russell? Should I go on? And on? And on?
Uk mps?
“I believe her” to me means: I will not try and talk you out of bringing a case on the grounds you were drunk/ high/ wearing a short skirt/ flirting with the guy. Or on the grounds that you got into his car / his house or even his bed. I will not adopt a sceptical tone or use sceptical words that suggest I think you are lying or exaggerating or that it was a bit of fun that got a little out of hand. I will not try and talk you out of bringing a case by pointing out that the guy might lose his scholarship or get fired if accused. I won’t suggest that really it was consensual but you are afraid of what your parents will say and are now pretending it was rape. I will not stress the difficulty of getting a conviction, with the implication that you are wasting your time. All of this is disgraceful and unacceptable, and has been and is still far too prevalent. What “I believe her” doesn’t mean to me is somehow bypassing the justice system. I don’t know how some posters think this would go down. Special squads that go round to the guy’s house and throw him in jail? Some sort of legislative change that means that uncorroborated testimony is always enough in the case of rape, so let’s just bypass the trial and get on with the sentencing? Platitudes on websites don’t cut it.
AnneTommy’s statement is so true. Every word of it. We cannot wholesale condemn people without a trial even when we unequivocally believe the victim – and I do believe her. Historically the US Justice System has favoured men because we have lived for so long in a society that blames women. We have to resist the temptation to go to the other extreme and always look at evidence and give fair and impartial trials. As someone who has studied criminology it is my sincere hope that people will become more educated about the law, so that jury trials aren’t swayed by charismatic lawyers or prosecutors but by critically examining testimony and other evidence themselves and drawing fair conclusions.
Well said, Annetommy. So many people here conflate our opinions/attitudes with the legal process. We want women who report sexual assault to be awarded the same degree of trust that we give other alleged crime victims! We don’t want men summarily thrown in jail! So much willfull ignorance. (Yes, I’m getting tired and cranky.)
Hmmm. Didnt see this one coming at all. I thought Ed Westwick was gay. Admittedly I don’t follow him or really anyone from Gossip Girl – was that the show? The pretty blonde dude really dropped off the face of the earth. Anyway, no idea. Could be true.
There’s a second accuser now with a similar story.
Yup. I just saw this as well.
What a shocking turn of events!
I hope his deluded fans will stop attacking Kristina now but who am I kidding.
After reading most of the comments, I think one thing that hasn’t been considered on why someone might question the victim’s validity is that this came out of the blue. We’d all heard the rumors about Weinstein and Spacey, so while it was shocking it wasn’t a surprise. But I’ve never heard anything about Westwick, no gossip at all. I always thought he was a bit creepy but it still shocked me when I read it. I do believe the victim.
or not out of the blue. Ed is not famous enough to have all sorts of rumors going about him and he preys on even lesser known actresses who were perhap fed all sorts of warnings and threats and whatnot. now that the floodgates are open, with a big name at the top of the list, more people are coming out.
it’s not that he’s pristine with no gossip just that he’s not in the radar yet. and now he is.
There have actually been blind item rumours and stories of him being a creep for years, but as he’s really not very famous they’re in, like, Gossip Girl forums, not the usual outlets.
The last time people other than uber fans cared about him was maybe season 2 of Gossip Girl, so it’s not like anyone’s been looking for stories about him.
Obviously nothing’s changed at all, despite all the “cultural shift” claims. Women are only believed if they come forward in groups of 5 against ugly looking men.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t claim that she’s in the right for sure. But stats say, nearly half of false rape claims (which themselves are 6% of total claims) don’t name a specific person. For this woman to falsely claim she’s been raped by someone who doesn’t “know her”, she has to be SERIOUSLY mentally ill. Odds are in her favor, but she’s being dragged on social media, even this site isn’t like always.
Just a note: Using “alleged” throughout only in the interests of fairness, except for Mark Salling who pled guilty to child porn charges.
So the second accuser was dating former Glee actor Mark Salling (in jail for child pornography) who allegedly dumped her when she told him of Ed Westwick raping her because of how important/big of a star Ed Westwick was (according to Perez Hilton post on this topic).
Correct me if I’m wrong (I’ve never watched either), but wasn’t Glee a much bigger show than Gossip Girl? According to the ratings on Wikipedia it looks like Glee had several times the number of viewers of Gossip Girl. So why would Mark Salling think Ed Westwick was the bigger actor?
I also think it’s interesting that both Mark Salling (35) and Kaine Harling (40) — the sometime “boyfriends” of both accusers — are so much older than the alleged victims whose stories are very similar. I really hope the LAPD takes this seriously because (not trying to defend the accused rapist!)
(1) neither accuser seems to have a major career
(2) both were about the same age when the alleged rape(s) took place
(3) both are petite brunettes (a type?)
(4) both rapes seemed to have occurred under similar circumstances (sleeping/sleepy, vulnerable state, guest room)
My question is: Was this some type of gross ring of older procurers who cozy up to young, hopeful actresses to turn them over to younger (perhaps paying?) actors?
Perhaps I’m not able to articulate this as I’m not a detective, but something seems so very off to me about the people involved (not the accusers/alleged victims!) but the “former boyfriends” ages and, in the case of Mark Salling, sexual proclivities (and possible relative stardom/cash) compared to Ed Westwick. It just smells to me like these girls were unknowing/unwilling ‘escorts’ (possibly for someone who was into a sleeping fetish?). Or maybe I’ve just watched too many crime dramas
How horrible for Kristina and Aurelie in any case. 🙁 :/
He can’t deny knowing her. She also has video. Interested in hearing his defense on this one because it sounds like he’s going to jail. Two people who don’t know each other will not have the same story.
The second might have the same story if the first person posts her story on Facebook. That’s why posting on Facebook was a really, really bad idea.
I don’t know about it being a ring. Maybe.
As far as who the bigger actor was, Glee was the bigger show, but Salling himself didn’t get a ton of attention or fans from it. He was a major supporting character at times, but so were a lot of other actors, and he wasn’t one of the ones who ‘broke out’. He was just part of the ensemble. I watched Glee for most of its run and I didn’t even know the guys name until he was arrested.
Gossip Girl on the other hand was a little more niche in terms of viewership, but the actors got a lot more sustained media attention, and Westwick was a fan favourite due to his storyline with Blair. Definitely the more famous of the two.
Neither were exactly A-list or powerful though, but I guess to someone like Salling, whose career was clearly going nowhere at all, the gap between him and Westwick might have seemed more major than it was.
I hope everyone on this board is working with a local organization to encourage women to report rape and assault as quickly as possible. You know what else is going to hurt a rape case? A victim who doesn’t report it for three years and then shares the story on FB.
We can sit and talk and debate all day, but until women, all women, get to the point where they immediately report assault, nothing will change. Doesn’t matter if you use #ibelieveher, that doesn’t result in prosecution.
Is there a man in Hollywood who hasn’t raped or sexually assaulted a woman sadly this is such a it problem there are allegations in British politics too it also examines how we treat victims we believe some but not others when its a man who’s famous or has power they have been routinely called gold diggers there also the assumption when an allegation every body usely says the of the perpetrator they wouldn’t do that rapist can be anyone from the famous to a teacher docter politician or a grocery store worker to are fathers brother’s and grandfathers hopefully this out pouring of woman coming forward will cause a change we don’t have to suffer in silence
I’m a day late but two things: he might not actually ‘remember her’ if drugs and alcohol were involved. Doesn’t make him any less guilty!! He might not ‘remember her’ if he does it a lot, or at least more than this one horrible time.
I still believe her!
This whole business is why I relentlessly and emphatically preach to my kids and nieces/nephews to stay the hell away from drugs and alcohol and farther away from people who abuse them. These evil people probably don’t remember any of the horrible, disgusting, unforgivable things they have done because they are regularly off their faces on the crap they put in their bodies. I do not accept impairment as an excuse or free pass, nor should any of us.
And I guess it’s a sign of the times, but over the past couple of years I’ve had to stress the importance of protecting and procuring DNA evidence to these same kids. Our martial arts gym has even offered clinics on the same (leaving a DNA footprint on your attacker and taking/preserving DNA from them) because, to paraphrase a once-great film, it doesn’t matter what they believe, it only matters what you can prove.
I hate having these conversations. It’s not right. It’s not fair. But it’s one of the ways I equip them for the world we live in. If you know you won’t be believed, and statistically it will probably happen to you, then this is the game plan – until the system changes. I just want them to be prepared and not have to go through the garbage that victims have historically gone through in their pursuit of justice.