In June of this year, there were widespread Black Lives Matter protests and counter-protests in London. At one point, there was a clash, and pro-racism “protesters” and BLM protesters got into some conflicts, and the cops were there too and it was all one big clusterf–k. In the melee, one of the racists got injured and a BLM protester named Patrick Hutchinson lifted the racist up and carried him out of harm’s way in what became iconic footage and iconic photos. Hutchinson has become something of a celebrity in the UK now, and he’s been given some platforms to speak about racism and BLM in the UK. And now this: a Zoom discussion with Prince Harry for the GQ Hype issue.
I’m including the video at the end of the post, and you can read the full transcript of their conversation here. Harry is clearly interviewing Patrick, not the other way around, and Patrick comes across as a completely lovely and thoughtful everyday hero. At one point in the conversation, Harry does speak at length about unconscious bias and ignorance. It really is remarkable to hear a 36-year-old white man, a blood prince raised in the cushion of privilege and wealth, speak about his own journey of self-education on race:
“You talk about unconscious bias to start with, which you and I both know is a huge thing globally. But, yes, it exists in the UK as well… Because as we know, the information that is put in front of us, they choose how to deliver it. And it can come to us with an element of bias or it can come with a sensationalist headline that just aggravates people…
“And no one’s blaming anybody. That’s the way that I look at it. No one’s pointing the fingers. You can’t really point fingers, especially when it comes to unconscious bias. But once you realise or you feel a little bit uncomfortable, then the onus is on you to go out and educate yourself, because ignorance is no longer an excuse. And unconscious bias, from my understanding, having the upbringing and the education that I had, I had no idea what it was. I had no idea it existed. And then, sad as it is to say, it took me many, many years to realise it, especially then living a day or a week in my wife’s shoes.
“…For me, it’s down to a more diverse perspective, otherwise you’re just perpetuating that bias. And I think one of the most dangerous things is people within positions of power, whether it’s politics or whether it’s the media, where if you’re not aware of your own bias and you’re not aware of the culture within your system, then how are we ever going to progress? How are we ever going to get to that point where there is more fairness? Because it’s not a zero-sum game, right? Everyone benefits if the black community gets treated the way they should be treated… Every day is a learning process. And it’s not actually up for debate. These are the facts. This is what’s happening. And it’s been very interesting for me to sit through or live through this in America.
But again, it’s going to take every single one of us to really change things and anyone that’s pushing against it really needs to take a long, hard look at themselves in the mirror. Because as I said, this isn’t black versus white. As you quite rightly pointed out, now in 2020 we have protestors of every colour, every background, every religion, every age. This is a global movement. The train has left the station. If you’re not on it now, then get on it because there’s so much that we can do. And being a dad myself, the whole point in life, I guess, for me, is to try to leave the world in a better place than when you found it.
*sips tea and looks at the clock* I predict that by the end of business today, we’ll be hearing about You Know Who being incandescent with rage about all of this. I bet it’s upset some courtiers too. And while this isn’t the point, I love the “process” of this – the fact that editors at British GQ got Prince Harry to conduct this interview, and that Harry was perfectly willing to speak at length about his own bias, his own privilege, his own journey of educating himself about race and racism.
Photos courtesy of WENN, British GQ, Avalon Red.
Question for the group: why is it that people sometimes need to experience something in order to understand it?
Great for H to have this conversation; it is because he married Meg that he finally understood unconscious bias and racism; was he living in a bubble before?
How can anyone live in a big city and not understand those concepts? anyway, I am glad he is acknowledging it!
You see it in the US with Chris Christie after he got Covid19; you see it with ‘former’ maga supporters…..why does something always have to affect you for you to have empathy?
Harry already knew what racism is, unconscious bias isn’t as overt and most white people dont know they’re perpetuating it, Ofcourse he knew racism but he is a freaking prince and unless having experience how else was he to know He had these biases? He probably didn’t pay attention to the differences in reporting btw POC and white people or other ingrained biases because he never had too till he met Meghan. That’s what he means.
Exactly Em. Well said.
Exactly this. Even the most well-meaning white people I know have unconscious bias. Some are a work in progress more than others. And fact is, we ALL have unconscious bias to some degree.
Why do we buy products made in sweatshops? Why do we eat meat that was raised in inhumane ways? We get complacent about what we do not see right in front of our faces.
Harry was raised to visually represent a privileged bubble that keeps out everything new and different, to be the standard that “others” everyone else and represents that as aspirational. Now he’s in the middle of his White person discovers racism! path. His audience is the people who glance at the Daily Mail and see the BRF as something right about the UK and then move on without thinking about what that does to how they perceive the world.
@Kalana — “Why do we buy products made in sweatshops? Why do we eat meat that was raised in inhumane ways? We get complacent about what we do not see right in front of our faces.”
Not all people are able to ignore other people suffering but I agree the majority probably does most likely because of costs
Well said kalana. People forget Harry is one privileged mf. He’s aware of the loud racism. The slurs. The lynchings.
It’s hard to be aware of unconscious bias because it’s rarely put into words. You have people today, still genuinely wondering how the straight outta compton headline was racist! It probably clicked for Harry once he saw the people he loved side eyed Meghan for no reason other than “something about her is off”…and then say he should have married a blonde. I personally didn’t understand some tropes Meghan was portrayed as until someone pointed me to literature (I’m not black, I’m of another minority race). The only way I fully understood it was simply because of my own experiences and my attention towards the topic. I am ashamed to admit I might not have caught it if I never followed Meghan and was ignorant about racial issues.
Unconscious bias is a real thing but you rarely fully understand it unless you see it happening in front of you in a way you can’t explain otherwise. You can hear experiences from other people but you will always try to rationalise it by thinking about a ton of other factors that could explain it. Especially for someone like him who’s a titled man.
There are so many degrees of id, ego and super ego and how they’re interacting with each other in any given brain. And as hard as it is to imagine someone’s inability to grasp a concept, it can be just as hard to make sense of intrinsic behavioral reasons and necessities for alterations and growth beyond current thought processes and beliefs. And sometimes, inward exploration is too painful and too much work. A person has to arrive at the right time in their journey to take some things on.
That was a lovely conversation to watch.
@VS, I understand where you’re coming from. Unpopular opinion but up until this statement I, a mixed race woman familiar with racism in both the USA and UK, was feeling pretty lukewarm about Harry’s statements on race and racism. I think partly because I felt like they were very basic but mostly because I felt like he wasn’t fully understanding the scope of racism? Like sure, there is racism but not understanding the many forms, overt and covert, that racism shape shifts into. As he says himself: “And then, sad as it is to say, it took me many, many years to realise it, especially then living a day or a week in my wife’s shoes.”
I wish I could articulate my feeling better but it’s very similar to what you’ve written. It’s frustrating that people can’t just believe others when they say “I’ve experienced racism. I know I have because that’s how I feel. I’m hurting from it. I am traumatized from it. It has taken things from me. My life has not been as full as it should be.” That should be enough. But the fact of the matter is that this will continue – people will continue to lack empathy until they experience something for themselves.
But now, reading this interview, I smiled because this statement demonstrates that everything seems to have really “clicked” for him and now he’s in it, he’s an ally, he’s not just a few yards down the road in his journey but much further than that, being much more introspective and critically thinking about things.
Edited to add that: my petty self loves the last sentence: “This is a global movement. The train has left the station. If you’re not on it now, then get on it because there’s so much that we can do.” Very pointed, I love it lol
As a prince, he most definitely grew up in a royal bubble. His initial worldview would have been shaped by other royals, aristocrats and sycophant courtiers. I’m sure his journey of discovery has been long and it’s good that he remains open to learning and growth.
When it comes to deprogramming people of hate and bias, I am always hopeful. The environment we grow up in has considerable influence in the way we view things but education and awareness can relieve us of our prejudices and biases. For many though they get more clarity or a different appreciation by witnessing some things first hand.
Because unless you experience something personally OR are exposed to a situation via someone who’s close to you, people generally don’t truly understand what it means to be in someone else’s shoes. For instance, in the past when someone died, I would call a friend to sympathize with their loss but it was only when the person closest to me died (in this case my mother) that I could truly look back and feel the exact pain that friend went through. In Harry’s case, being brought up in a privileged, white, Royal bubble, although he was taught by his mother to empathize with people less fortunate than himself or his job as a Royal took him to communities and countries with people of colour, he never really understood the biases and injustices they faced in a world not made for them to thrive. Therefore it took him going in the army and dealing with soldiers who were disabled as a result of combat for him to found Invictus and Walking with Wounded. And it took him falling in love and marrying a woman of colour and having a child of his own who is now judged on his background, for him to understand the racism that black people/people of colour face in the everyday world. Therefore like Invictus, he can now tackle the issues of racism and unconscious bias from a place of understanding.
Exactly and yes to all of this. It wasn’t until I experienced having a sick mother that I could FULLY empathize witj my friend whose mother had been sick. And I think the same goes for people who do not experience racism and bias on a daily basis. It takes being AROUND someone daily and living alongside them to see it. As much as people can empathize they can’t truly understand it without experiencing it. That goes for MOST life experiences.
Because we all have bubbles of privilege. The less privilege you have, the more readily understanding you are to pick up on inequality when you encounter it, not just when you are a member of said privileged. White men in particular are at the top of this privileged ruling class globally, and so, they are less likely to be raised, and educated of those unconscious biases simply bc of a lack of exposure on a personal note. British princes are not socialized to confront their privilege and unconscious biases other than in service to the performative diplomacy they need to adhere to continue having power for the British interest And global standing worldwide, post Brit colonialism and imperialism. It’s all about optics, not true change and progression. That’s why the BRF takes so long to catch up with modern times. They can’t survive if ppl really woke up and understood how much of a brained-washed concept the monarchy is in a modern society. And the gentry (ruling class) don’t want to lose their power at all. Doing so is dangerous to the continuation of the status-quo , which is what British royalty and the peerages need/want to survive.
Those with less privilege, or when they relate personally as you experience privilege lack off personally, you teach your children. And that cycle continues, hopefully.
Because we all have bubbles of privilege. The less privilege you have, the more readily understanding you are to pick up on inequality when you encounter it, not just when you are a member of said privileged. And so much depends on your cultural upbringing And age of awareness, bc while being black and Caribbean, I could understand treating ppl unfairly bc of their accent and skin color universally no matter. I can’t say the same about homophobic unconscious biases I had until I made the conscious decision to hold them up to scrutiny in a world where ppl were being discriminated against bc of their sexual orientation once I left high school.
White men in particular are at the top of this privileged ruling class globally, and so, they are less likely to be raised and educated of those unconscious biases simply bc of a lack of exposure on a personal note. British princes are not socialized to confront their privilege and unconscious biases other than in service to the performative diplomacy they need to adhere to continue having power for the British interest & global standing worldwide, post Brit colonialism and imperialism. It’s all about optics, not true change and progress. That’s why the BRF takes so long to catch up with modern times. They can’t survive if ppl really woke up and understood how much of a brained-washed concept the monarchy is in a modern society. And the gentry (ruling class) don’t want to lose their power at all. Doing so is dangerous to the continuation of the status-quo , which is what British royalty and the peerages need/want to survive.
Those with less privilege, as you experience more privilege have more ready perspective in certain areas. But being a part of the privilege group, constantly blinds you. Look at cis men and homophobia, especially cis men of color.
Hopefully ppl will yeah their children. And that cycle continues.
I haven’t watched the full interview, but Harry seems to conflate unconscious bias with implicit racism a lot, and they’re not synonymous. The former is simply a common manifestation of latter, but people are deliberately and implicitly racist all the time. For example, the British media notoriously uses dog whistles to racially abuse people of color, including Meghan. That’s not unconscious.
This is a good start, particularly around holding individuals accountable, however.
Yeah, good point. When he said unconscious bias exists in the UK, and it’s a global issue, I wondered if he understood that unconscious bias is a psychological feature that gets hardwired in our brains. And it’s racial, ethnic, religious…..It’s a species problem. His comment makes more sense if, as you suggest, he means implicit racism, which is a sociological issue. And yes, as you point out, they are related.
Thank you for making this point. But I think Harry teaching one term at a time is effective. He may also have been talking mainly about what he has noticed in himself — his realization of his own unconscious bias, which is very appropriate.
I agree. There is also the part where the British media uses emotional language in their reporting to play on the unconscious biases of its readers, especially those who are not necessarily aware of the true meanings behind some of the language.
It really has been so great to watch Harry’s journey from nazi costume to him talking about his own unconscious bias and institutional racism. He’s not perfect about it and he’s still got ways to go but what he’s done so far is on the right path.
I agree. Harry lived and grew up in one of the biggest bubbles in the world, albeit a very transparent one. Deep down he wanted more, hence him joining the army etc but he still would have mostly socialised with the same circle he grew up with. It took being with Meghan and hearing and seeing how she and their son is being treated to become this aware. Even then, he still has a way to go but I applaud his openness about his biases knowing he will be slated to death for it.
He will be learning the rest of his life and I’m sure he knows that. It was a good conversation.
Let’s not leave out that William chose the nazi costume for him, and then skated on by after Harry was villified for it.
Harry agreed to wear it. He could have said no.
I never forget this part of the story, which rarely gets mentioned and most people don’t even know about it. Still, Harry was old enough to make his own choices and he made the wrong decision in that instant. I am glad he was called out by the regular media for it and was sorry for the right reason instead of being sorry just to appease those who called him out. What I find admirable about Harry is that he seems to learn from his mistakes and strives to be better instead of staying stuck in resentment for being called out.
@Laura — I agree with Ines; he was an adult; he could have said No…..let’s not take Harry’s own agency from him here otherwise we are buying into the concepts that Meg with her magic …. is responsible (or as haters say to blame) for his decisions
Harry was reamed for it in public and has since changed. Billy escaped all scrutiny for his role in the fiasco and still finds it funny at 39 to pretend to call the cops on Uber delivery guys who are almost certainly not white.
Harry is such a great interviewer. Between this and the Time interview last week, he is quite the skilled interviewer. On a shallow note, he looks great in that black shirt.
I must admit that this has been a surprise to me. I knew he was a good speaker but out of all the TIME panels, the one he moderated was a favourite. I can see H and M having a really cool talk show in the future.
It seems to me that he was holding himself back as a working royal. I don’t recall him ever doing anything like this in the past (correct me if I’m wrong.) I mean it’s not like he suddenly became well spoken in the past six months, it’s clearly a skill he’s maintained. He also seems so relaxed, which is important in conversations like this; you don’t want come off as defensive.
I think this is what Lacey was referring to when he said Harry is not the family dunce anymore.
I doubt Harry was ever the family “dunce”, maybe he was not academic but I doubt he was the dunce. Often those with PTSD are highly intelligent people as the trauma often gets stuck in their head where they try to “rationalise” and make sense of it.
I think rather what we’re seeing is that when his relationship with Bill broke down, so also did the unwritten codependency agreement that he act as court jester.
It seems that Bill requires that everyone around him act as ‘less than’. We see this in his choice of wife and her laziness. Now we see it in Kate’s cos-playing of Meghan’s winning attributes.
Looking at the response from Kate fans, RR’s and general UK media it seems that their biggest gripe with H&M was that they continually outshone W&K, even when they were merely breathing.
RR’s confimed on twitter over the weekend that their three years with Meghan were their most profitable ever (even eclipsing Diana), yet they all bit the hand that fed them at Bill’s direction. And for that you better believe there will be a payback when Bill does not deliver the same balance sheet going forward.
When all is said and done, RR’s are all about the bottom line. What is the point of having access to the FFK and FFQ when there is another court in LA which is far more exciting and generates far more revenue.
Harry is a very natural public speaker. Do you remember that event he attended where he spoke to a huge audience of youths and then in the end brought out his wife and the crowd went wild. Well, while he was rousing them with his speech which appeared to be learned by heart, he came across as this real and powerful charismatic leader. It was where my eyes were opened to his abilities in that regard.
Well, this is better than being “bored” of racism or “fed up” with it, isn’t it?
I like how he acknowledges his own incredible privilege and how important it is to talk about these things, because if someone doesn’t realize their own bias, how can they overcome it?
Someone mentioned above that there’s a difference between bias and implicit racism, and I completely agree. But I think for Harry, this is a good conversation to be having.
I’m looking forward to all the “palace sources” running to the Daily Mail to talk about how the Queen and/or Prince William are SUPER OFFENDED by Harry thinking that Black Lives Matter. 🙄
Conversations like this from people like Prince Harry are so important. He is the very epitome of privilege and not just white privilege. His family are literally at the top of the totem pole.
Anyway waiting on the UK media to clown Harry’s latest interview during black history month. Brits are good at showing their arse like that.
Also waiting on the BRF to distance themselves from this ‘political’ message…. bc after all equality for brown people is too political for the BRF….
This is the kind of conversation that British (far)rightwing supporters hate to see, a white prince and a black “pauper” discussing equality and race relations at a basic human level.
That is why Harry is an authentic leader, a true humanitarian. We need more sincere dialogues between opposites: left/right, black/white etc. and refind the common ground we lost through centuries of polarization and institutionalization of hate and exclusion. Harry is learning and setting a great example as a free man. I applaud him! 👏👏👏
This article has over 2.2K comments on the Daily Fail… 😂😂😂
Angry UK people
Never thought I’d see a British royal having these types of conversations. Harry being a prince means he’s basically the peak of white privilege and white supremacy so I’m not surprised he was not aware of any of this until having met and gotten together with Meghan. I’m glad he showed some shame in that it took being married to a biracial to realize cause it shouldn’t have but that’s unfortunately the reality of a lot of interracial couple, especially black and white partners. He’s come a LONG way. He still has a ways to go but he’s definitely on the right path. Idk, if a blood British prince who grew up dripped in white privilege can make it to this point, I don’t think anyone else has any excuse.
Back when their engagement was announced, Prince Charles commented, “she’ll make a man of him”. Looks like that has happened!
The hair gods are apparently just. As Harry seems to have more hair, William has decidedly less.
Harry is looking really attractive these days. Honestly, I have no problem with him having a little vanity and doing whatever it takes to improve his hair game and combat the encroaching baldness. On another note, happy to see that they are making strides and getting on with their lives. This is still an ongoing journey for them and while there will be setbacks and continuous attacks from the UK, at least they are no longer stuck and exploring options and issues that resonate with them.
I wish I could post a gif of baby yoda sipping tea (or broth to be precise).
and on a completely shallow note. I just want to lick that magazine cover, both men are a delight!
Best comment!!!!
This is good and I would love to see more conversations like this happening from Harry and people like him. It’s really sad that POC can’t just speak and that be enough to be heard, it takes people who actually don’t face the bigotry speaking out against it for it to gain traction. I wish that wasn’t so, but you see it even with sexism. No matter how many times women say something, that thing is hardly heard until some man repeats it. I hate that, but I can’t help but notice this is often the case when in comes to issues that aren’t universally experienced. Men don’t face the crippling sexism that women face and White people don’t face the crippling racial bigotry that POC/Black people face, so most don’t understand or empathize until someone they care about, or something truly life altering happens.
“Look at what love can do.”
Why do we always have to be ‘better than’? Imagine what would have happened if the situation had been reversed and a Black man had been surrounded by White supremacists? He’d be dead. No question about it. And I’ll be willing to bet that not ONE White supremacist changed their minds that day, INCLUDING the man that was saved.
I’m glad that Harry has seen the light. Nothing like having your baby compared to an ape to convince you that systemic racism really does exist. What a shame that Archie’s extended family, including his uncle, grand-father and great-grandmother, didn’t say a word in his defense. Hate Meghan all they want, but the fact that they didn’t defend Archie enrages me. Who would have thought that a biracial child would be safer in the US than in Great Britain?
If this was a movie it would have been the White guy as the savior somehow. If it had happened like this, the White guy would have been redeemed and placed in a situation where he had to be the hero of the Black guy. You are correct, if the Black guy had been surrounded by racist and was down, he wouldn’t have gotten back up.
I like that Harry is sharing his journey publicly. His early life was very sheltered; even the visits to McDonald’s and homeless shelters were managed to a certain extent because of security concerns. At Eton, he was surrounded by more sons of privilege and his adult friends pre-Meghan reflect that. He has become more aware of the world as he served in the military and started his foundations. Certainly meeting Meghan and seeing how she and Archie were (are) treated made it personal. He has grown and continues to grow which I think is good to see.
It is funny that whenever Harry talks about racism and unconscious bias , the British people get mad and post pictures of Harry in Nazi costume. .. well, Harry was stupid and he did this 15 years ago and he apologized at the time, but I find it funny that they loved him and laughed about this behaviour when he was doing these stupid things. However, Harry now is an adult, mature man, a good father and a great husband, and they hate that. They prefer Harry who wore a Nazi costume.
I keep hoping some of the public who are caught up in the hate machine who truly don’t think they’re racist will have a moment of pause and wonder to themselves, is it really just a coincidence the only 2 biracial individuals in the RF were ruthlessly smeared and chased out? That maybe, just maybe the enthusiasm with which they hate her IS unconscious bias and nothing to do with anything she’s done.
I’m starting to think there might be a bombshell to come out of the one year review that they never asked for. I’m beginning to think that they might give up their Sussex title. Obviously, they can’t actually relinquish the titles on their own but I can see them saying that they no longer want to go by “Duke and Duchess” and that if the queen and parliament wants to formally strip them, well then have at it. Idk, over the last few weeks, I’ve felt like they are DONE done with the royal thing and probably want no association whatsoever. And if it’s true that they know that the BRF are still briefing against them and pulling stunts to try to ruin their reputation, I can see them saying “eff it” and just going by Harry and Meghan. I don’t know, I just feel like they both have had an awakening about how they view “royalty” and what it means after everything they’ve gone through. A lot has changed in a year. A year ago, they were planning “Sussex Royal” as their branding and saw themselves still working part time for the Firm. Seeing the issues they are championing and the work they’re doing, it’s hard to even believe they still wanted to be rooted in that family.
I can see it, but I think Harry may also want to retain the royal link at least until George is of-age, because as the next adult in line he would have Regent responsibilities if anything tragic were to happen.Charles is already in his 70s so it’s not even a guarantee that he will be King. And William is just one random, unnecessary helicopter ride (RIP Kobe) or untimely passing away from the afterlife (anything literally can happen). I’m not asking for it or predicting it, just saying life happens when you’re busy making plans. So Harry would still need to be around. Once George hits 18 though, I think all bets are off.
The Sussexes are really on to something with these almost 2- way interviews: real, consistent conversations about issues that matter to them and to those who share their curiosity and concerns. We are getting to know them in a powerful way, and I’m excited for what’s to come.