Archetypes Ep. 2, ‘The Duality of Diva’ features a great convo with Mariah Carey

Archetypes Episode 2 is out!! The Duchess of Sussex’s second podcast episode is “The Duality of Diva” with Mariah Carey. I’m listening to it as I’m writing – Meghan and I are close-ish in age, so our cultural references are similar and it’s cracking me up that she’s referencing Divas Live as a cultural touchstone. I mean, it was? I suppose. I remember when Elton John was also included in Divas Live, remember that? The first part of the pod is a conversation with comedian Amanda Seales, then Mariah comes in about six, seven minutes in. I need a podcast about what happened behind-the-scenes of getting Mariah on Archetypes. I feel like Mariah showed up comfortably late and there was probably a good deal of drama with the Zoom. Here’s the pod:

The discussion with Mariah has a fascinating layer because both Mariah and Meghan are biracial and both women’s racial ambiguity has been used against them by both white and Black communities. I could listen to them talk about the difference between mixed-presenting and Black-presenting for an hour, honestly. The racial aspect of the conversation is fascinating and amazing. Then they transition into the diva talk. Anyway, I love Mariah. She’s so funny. They also talk about Black hair and hair texture and how no one knew how to do Mariah’s hair.

Photos courtesy of Avalon Red, Spotify.

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112 Responses to “Archetypes Ep. 2, ‘The Duality of Diva’ features a great convo with Mariah Carey”

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  1. BlackFemmeBot says:

    Just finished listening and I LOVED IT!!! M seems to have grown leaps and bounds in her interviewing by this episode and I found the discussion about simultaneous anti-Blackness and colourism experienced by both of them to be SO INTERESTING. So proud of Meghan!!!

    • Lili says:

      I think so too, but I attributed the slight awkwardness to the fact that Serena and Meghan are best friends so they had to be careful not to step on the bombs that make up Meghan’s life. And still a tiny one exploded all over the place

    • MakeEverydayCount says:

      Meghan has a GIFT…..I’m not sure how the other podcast will go but her ability to connect with others is just amazing! I smiled through the entire podcast. It was absolutely WONDERFUL! I love the way she mixes the dialogue with the background story. LOVE IT and can’t wait for the next one.

    • fishface says:

      MC is so impressive. She deserves all her success.

  2. Noki says:

    Thats very interesting, they are both what you might call ‘white passing’ biracial women. With Mariah, could be due to her music has always moved through the ambiguity quite fluidly but with Meghan i feel ‘both sides’ have been rather unfair to her.

    • TIFFANY says:

      I remember a interview the creator of Suits did when he spoke about Meghan fighting for her parents on the show to be interracial. Yeah, they were gonna cast white actors as her parents. Then they turned around and managed to get Wendell ‘The Great’ Pierce casted as her father.

      That story made me adore Meghan before she started dating Harry.

    • Becks1 says:

      I loved that Mariah mentioned BET right off the bat. I remember there being talk early in her career (before I was really familiar with her music) about whether she should be on BET, if she was black enough.

    • Steph says:

      That’s interesting that you (and I’m sure many others) find them white passing. The first time I ever saw Meghan was I think an ad for Suits. I immediately knew she was biracial. I’ve always known Mariah was biracial. I’ve always known Alicia Keys was biracial. This wasn’t info I needed spelled out in an interview or anything. It was just obvious to me. I wonder if we just have a sixth sense and all recognize it in each other.

      • Snuffles says:

        Same. When I first heard about her dating Harry, I immediately thought she was black and Googled it to confirm.

      • Ace says:

        They actually mention this on the podcast.

      • Becks1 says:

        That’s interesting. My husband is 1/4 Asian, the rest is white. So white people tend to think he’s just white and tan, the most he’ll get is “I can tell you’re ‘something’ what are you?” (which is obviously super insulting on its own). Asian people immediately recognize that he is part Asian.

      • Midnight@theOasis says:

        @Steph. I agree. First time I saw Meghan and Mariah I knew they were biracial. Nothing about either of them says “white passing” to me. African Americans within the same family can be any shade of color. My maternal grandmother was Meghan’s complexion and my maternal grandfather was Idris Elba’s complexion. Their children’s complexions ranged from light bright to dark skin.

      • Moneypenny424 says:

        @Steph I agree. I don’t see Meghan (or Mariah) as white passing at all. They just look like light skinned biracial people? I mean, Meghan looks like my daughter (I’m black, my husband is biracial). But maybe it is something that black people can see right away.

      • osito says:

        Yep, it was clear to me from the get-go, and I was confused why other people didn’t see it. Same with Mariah (she and I have the same hair texture), and Halsey (she just looks like a light-skinned biracial lady to me!).

        I honestly think Meghan looks black — she looks like so many members of my family, both in terms of skin tone, but hair texture, and features-wise. So, it’s odd to me that she reads as white to other people. Like, we come in all shades, and hair textures, and skin tones, right?

      • Betsy says:

        I’ll out myself here; I have a lot of difficulty in noticing people who are mixed race. I didn’t realize Mariah Carey was mixed race until about ten years ago and didn’t know that Meghan was mixed race until I read it on here in the context of the racism she was facing. I wonder if it has to do with how many people of color someone knows as a child? My small hometown was very much majority White.

        To becks1’s point, people of other ethnicities and races sometimes stop my husband and ask “where he’s from.” To his knowledge, he’s White, but middle eastern people especially ask where he’s from.

    • Steph says:

      @becks1 show your husband this pic of Cory Tran. He’s Frieda Pinto’s husband. To me he looks 100% white but is actually half Vietnamese. I’m curious if he’d recognize the Asian in him.

    • Athena says:

      I don’t see Meghan as white passing. Going by her childhood pictures, she has the same complexion and hair texture as my daughter and my daughter is not white passing. She might pass for a Latina, but not white. I say this from the experience of having people come up to me speaking Spanish only when my daughter is with me.

      • L4Frimaire says:

        I don’t think she sees herself that way or ever tried to “ pass”. However that is how others may have perceived her based her physical appearance.

  3. girl_ninja says:

    I’m about to listen now! I love that they are gonna talk about hair texture and black/bi-racial girl things 🥰

    • girl_ninja says:

      I find it interesting that Amanda Seales was featured on Archetypes. She made a point of questioning Meghan after Beyonce and others gave her props. Very interesting. If you don’t know, look it up.

  4. Snuffles says:

    “The discussion with Mariah has a fascinating layer because both Mariah and Meghan are biracial and both women’s racial ambiguity has been used against them by both white and Black communities. I could listen to them talk about the difference between mixed-presenting and Black-presenting for an hour, honestly. The racial aspect of the conversation is fascinating and amazing.”

    Honestly, that was my favorite part. I know the subject was the Diva archetype, but I could have listened to them talking about growing up mixed race for hours. Especially the hair part! Meghan had me cracking up when she talked about her black grandmother doing her hair. I could 1000% relate. I too grew up with a huge, thick, curly mess of Chaka Khan-esque hair AND am tender headed (a practically squealed when Meghan used that term). Getting my hair done was TORTURE!! I recall one time when my Mom was on vacation, my Dad was supposed to do it. He gave up after the first whence and told me to just go wild until my mother came back. Ooh, she was FURIOUS when she came back. 😂

    • lanne says:

      I’m tender-headed, too, with coarse hair. I’ve always said that my Orwell’s 1984 Room 101 would contain a fine-toothed comb! I have nightmares about those!!!

  5. ThatsNotOkay says:

    This is the one I’ve been waiting for…

  6. Brazen Hussy says:

    I love that Meghan acknowledged and spoke about colorism & her proximity to whiteness. I think it shows that she’s aware of the criticisms that are levied against her by both white & black people.

    White people not wanting to acknowledge that MM is half black (in addition to mentioning she doesn’t look black) to absolve their racism and some Black people (Black Brits in particular), who were reluctant to speak on the blatant racism MM suffered while in the RF, b/c many of them felt she had the “complexion for protection”, or was complicit in joining a colonialist family and should’ve known “what she was getting herself into”. I liked that diva was the topic, but felt that the mixed race and how it plays out in communities could’ve been fleshed out more.

    • Snuffles says:

      “felt that the mixed race and how it plays out in communities could’ve been fleshed out more.”

      I would have loved to hear more too but the topic WAS “Diva”. Maybe another topic for another time. Meghan can do a round table on mixed race and how they present to the world. Talk to people like Mariah, Zendaya, Halle Berry, Halsey and if she wants to include men, artists like Wentworth Miller, Pete Wentz, Slash, Key and Peel.

      • SomeChick says:

        that would be amazing. it’s such a big and complex subject! it could totally be its own roundtable.

        even just hair could be its own roundtable!

    • Duchcheese says:

      NO, not just black Brits. Madam Duchess Meghan has been abused by BLACK, white and other color folks from different countries. I remember clicking on a youtube vid by a African American gay man and I couldn’t believe the stuff that came out of that man’s mouth. From things like dismissing duchess Meghan’s experiences as a black woman “she is not black c’mon, she can easily pass as a white girl and she has never experienced the abuse directed towards us black people because she is white passing” to her being accused of “black appropriation because she never dates any black men” etc. And of course there was this black newswoman on one British TV that I heard saying how she was “sick of hearing anything Meghan and I wish both Meghan and Harry would just die and never be heard from again because of what Meghan is doing to our royal family”, I kid you not. The abuse directed at Madam Duchess Meghan is not just from Brits. And honestly, there are lots of British people that stood up for Duchess Meghan, but their voices never got amplified by the BM because they didn’t fit the narrative of “Meghan is hated by everyone in Britain”

  7. Becks1 says:

    I haven’t listened to it yet (I will as soon as my kids leave for their bike ride lol) but I am really excited. It sounds like a great episode.

    • Becks1 says:

      Okay, I’ve listened to it, and its REALLY good. the conversation is really good and actually walks the line really well between being a conversation and being an interview. It was about so much more than just being called a diva, but I love how Mariah both admitted that she’s over the top partly just for laughs, but also because she just wants to be and figures she has the right at this point to just live how she wants to live. there was such confidence there. I haven’t listened to an interview with Mariah in YEARs and it was just so interesting to listen to her talk.

      I really liked last week’s episode with Serena but thought this was one was a lot better. I can’t wait for next week’s.

  8. Jais says:

    Mariah!!! I could’ve listened to them talk for another hour at least. Can there be an outtakes version? I want to hear more.

  9. Colleen says:

    Listening now but I’m a 1984 baby (38 for anyone who doesn’t feel like doing math) and I 100% consider Divas Live a cultural touchstone.

    • Southern Fried says:

      Very much so. I’m going to try to find it and watch again.

      • Colleen says:


      • BeanieBean says:

        Just watched Mariah & Aretha sing Chain of Fools. Wowzers!!

      • HelloDannie says:

        I will have to give this episode a listen, it sounds pretty interesting. I am black but have biracial nieces and am aware their experiences are going to be different than mine. I hope to learn more about it.

        Also I wasn’t always her biggest fan but just love how Mariah now owns her confidence without giving a damn.

    • KLO says:

      Same I´ve watched all of the early Divas Live concerts religiously and a thousand times.

  10. Polo says:

    It was really good!! Wish they were longer just like last week lol but

  11. Lili says:

    Wow ! What a great episode, there was so much to love , I don’t think there is anything for the RR to get there knickers in a twist about but you know they will pick on anything, I loved when Mariah called Meghan a Diva too 😂🤣😂. Then she Clarified, and I loved Meghan’s synopsis at the end . Great Convo these are the Chats that are missing from our lives. I watched the evolution of Mariah without taking too much f her life on board. The emancipation of Mimi is still my favourite album of hers 🥰 we need more Meghan keep up the good work

    • Snuffles says:

      When Mariah was talking about her controlling marriage with Tommy Mottola and how she reclaimed her independence and her voice after leaving him, I was expecting Meghan to jump in like “Guurrl! SAME!” She didn’t, but I think she left that part in on purpose so people would draw comparisons.

      Meghan did say they went off on tangents for a bit but brought it back round to Diva. So, a lot of the conversation was edited out.

      If Archewell Audio people are listening, drop the uncut versions later after the initial run!

    • sunny says:

      Yes, the Emancipation of Mimi is such a great album! I love Mariah so much and cannot wait to listen. I love that Meghan is getting such fantastic guests.

    • Amy Bee says:

      @Lili: I haven’t listened to the episide yet but I’ve seen quotes. The part where she speaks about the focus being on her race and understanding about how black women are treated after she met Harry will be probably the comment that upsets the royal rota but who cares what they think. Meghan is telling the truth.

      • Lili says:

        Lol then they are being A holes because she said the same thing last week.
        I just had to check myself because rereading my comment made me start to wonder about my behaviour checking to see if there is anything they can pick on I think that comes under abuse and I’m not handing my power over to a bunch of idiots to be mentally abused

      • A says:

        Hearing that really gets me. Imagine being a biracial black woman from America, and your first, most devastating experience of horrible racism coming from BRITAIN.

        In any other timeline, that revelation would prompt some serious national soul searching over there. But we live in this terrible timeline, so instead of that, we get endless deranged shrieking from pasty white British ghouls who insist that racism “doesn’t exist in Britain” bc it was made “illegal” or w/e.

    • Eurydice says:

      It was interesting that, even after this whole conversation, the word “diva” hit Meghan in a negative way and that it took her some conscious reflection to see it positively, the way Mariah meant it. Those words have dug deep in our psyches.

  12. OzJennifer says:

    That was so interesting. I only wish it was longer!

    • Petra (Brazen Archetyped Phenomenal Woman) says:

      Meghan and Mariah covered so much, 4 episodes can come from their discussion in episode 2. I agree the episodes needs to be longer, I can take 2 hours.

  13. Jewell says:

    So funny hearing them talk about #mixed girlhair problems lol. As a person with very kinky hair I just want to roll my eyes lol but forreal mixed girl hair gets matted just by looking at it. Glad Meghan had her gramma and pink lotion to get her hairs together. Enjoyed both Meg and Mimi in this interview.

    • KLO says:

      Yeah. I´m eastern/northern european and 9 people out of ten here have straight, brown-blonde hair. My natural color and texture is extremely close to Mariah`s. I have never EVER left the hairdresser with a nice looking hairdo unless they blow dry it straight. They just have no freakin clue.
      It`s not just something black or mixed people experience.

  14. BlondieR says:

    Queen Meghan making me use Spotify again!

  15. Jazz Hands says:

    I’m about to dive into the transcript as I can’t listen to the actual podcast. If anyone else is in the same boat, they publish proper transcripts here:

  16. Pearl_string says:

    Listening right now, so good! Meghan has the most soothing voice and I always want to hear Mariah. Feels like a nice mix of interview and relaxed discussion with real insight.
    I’ve read some ‘constructive’ criticism of Meghan’s approach but think they’re missing the point here – meghan is not a journalist and this is not an interrogative podcast. I really like what she’s doing here because it feels authentic to her skills and experience!

    • Southern Fried says:

      Totally agree.

      • Petra ( Brazen Archetyped Phenomenal Woman) says:

        Yup! I’m an avid podcast listener, Meghan is good at it. I’ve never finished a podcast saying I want more, but I do with Archetypes. I’m hoping season 2 or her next podcast allows her the room to explore topics an episode generates.

    • TurquoiseGem says:

      I’m not an avid podcast listener, so, it’s quite something that Archetypes has got my rapt attention so quickly!

      Meghan’s voice is such a treat to listen to – engaging and warmly enveloping.

      Mariah has quite the life story, and I’m so happy to see how far she’s come.

      This 2nd episode covered so much ground. I used to love the smell of Pink Lotion, and we even got a little of the great Leontyne Price. Ooh, I can’t wait for the next episode…!

  17. M says:

    I just wish this was on a different platform. I don’t have Spotify and don’t want it because they allow people like Joe Rogan to poison the well. I’m glad Meghan is having the success, I just won’t be part of it.

  18. MellyMel says:

    I could definitely listen to them talk about hair and race/colorism for like another hour. So, so good! Also the Pink Lotion talk brought me right back to my childhood lol!

  19. Lattie says:

    I love loved it, Mariah n Mimi s conversation I was glued. I feel like The podcast is better this week not sure why but I felt the progress.

  20. Jais says:

    When they talked about the name of Mariah’s dog, all I could think about was Jan Moir using the word mutt against Meghan.

    • Snuffles says:

      Yaaaaass! I peeped that too! Of course this was recorded before that, but I think Mariah intentionally named her dog Muttley and made it sound regal because she was probably called a mutt numerous time growing up by assholes like Jan Moir.

      • Becks1 says:

        I don’t know how podcasts work, I wonder if they edited this after that article came out to specific include that part? Or if this whole thing was locked and loaded ages ago?

      • SomeChick says:

        so many people don’t seem to realize how much “mutt” and “mongrel” get thrown at mixed people. it’s very pointed and intentional, just like the Moir quote. so I absolutely think Mariah named her dog Muttley because of it.

  21. Over it says:

    I enjoyed that , thanks Kaiser for posting it..Mariah will always be the one and only ms. Mariah Carey. Diva, and I absolutely love her for it. I am all for Meghan embracing her inner diva.

  22. C-Shell says:

    Just as with the podcast with Serena, I didn’t want it end! In some ways, this was a far better interview, but I give Meghan a pass on the Serena convo because they’re old friends and friends interrupt each other and finish each other’s thoughts and sentences all the time. Their ease with each other was obvious.

    This conversation with Mariah was amazing! For the first time, I feel like I “get” Mariah, and I think I’d like to be friends. I got chills when I listened to her talk about her mother and childhood. Not to the extreme that she endured, but I went through similar things and I relate to her choice to “not do that” when we’re old enough to choose. I looove that she leans into her inner and outward diva. And I love the point that she and Meghan made that these terms can be reclaimed by the Serenas, Mariah’s and Meghans and lift all of us up.

    • C-Shell says:

      I’d add, there is a running theme here — Meghan’s experience of being labeled as “ambitious,” “black,” “diva” when she started dating Harry was the first time she experienced those terms as a pejorative. This is heartbreaking. I expect this is the tack Larcombe, Wootton, et al. will seize onto for the bashing starting …. Right about now.

      • BohemianAngel says:

        C-SHELL, already happening on the evening news on ITV! They are only playing that segment of the podcast!
        These people are beyond ridiculous!!!

      • Eurydice says:

        Wootton’s been tweeting “When Mariah Carey calls you a diva…” He’s irredeemable.

  23. DeluxeDuckling says:

    Yes!! I’m mixed race and it means being treated with suspicion by EVERYONE. So glad Meghan is talking about this.

  24. Genevieve says:

    Interesting-like a lot of people here, i also felt like I could have kept listening for at least another hour. That’s good news for the podcast. The time limitation leaves important topics seeming rushed, but not in a truncated, abrupt way. I liked it. And how Meghan laughed with Mariah’s use of the word “festive” was hilarious, as I was laughing too. I’ve shamelessly loved Mimi for ages and Meghan is making it easier for me to love her too. This podcast is a resounding success so far. Suck it, British Monarchy.

    • Harper says:

      I loved the festive moment too. Mariah clearly understood the history of the word diva, having a mother who was an operatic star and diva, but also confessing that her own mother’s use of the word was confusing as well because it could sound like a dig. Mariah decided that for her, diva was going to mean unapologetic festive fun and she just goes for it in her home and how she dresses. It was great.

  25. BohemianAngel says:

    Loved this! I’ve been a Mariah fan since day one, so it was interesting listening to her talk more about her childhood, knew about the racism her family faced but hearing about her mum’s boyfriends was new.
    Well done Meghan!

    • Jais says:

      I’ve always liked Mariah but have grown to love her more and more. The huskiness of her voice and her humor. Just downloaded the audiobook that she narrates, the Meaning of Mariah. Listening to chapters of that will hold me over until the next archetypes episode.

      • kirk says:

        Thanks for pointing out audiobook narrated by her; going to get it now! Have always had a ton of respect for her when everybody was ganging up on her for emotional breakdown. She just went and took care of herself!

  26. Abby says:

    I can’t wait to listen. I LOVE Meghan’s voice and I feel like she talks about important things. I really enjoyed the Serena episode, and I’m gonna listen to this one today while making dinner!

  27. Maxine Branch says:

    Meghan has such a natural talent and ease when she is speaking to others. You just feel like you are in the room as part of the conversation. I am so happy she walked away from that cult and is now able to share all the gifts she bears . Her gifts deserve a platform to be shared with the world as she is doing now. Loved both Pod Casts thus far. The caution noted when she interviewed her BFF Serena was because of their rich history as friends who know so much about each other lives and they did not wish to cross boundaries by exposing too much. Love hearing Meghan’s voice. Love her interaction with her guest and love the nuggets we learn from these Pod cast. Great job Meghan.

    So wish Meghan supports would recognize and accept she has moved on and is living her best life and dreams with her family. Their interactions with the gutter rats on that island connects them to a larger platform.

  28. B says:

    Its never long enough up!! I wanted to hear more about their mixed girl hair woes, how Mariah has fun with being a Diva, Mariah’s drive etc.. Its sooo goood!!!!!!!

  29. tamsin says:

    Great conversation with Mariah! Enjoyed every minute. It was nice to hear the bit from Leontyne Price as well.

  30. Ace says:

    While I liked the first episode, I loved this one. I think it was much more focused and I liked how Meghan and Mariah vibed. Serena and Meghan are obviously close friends, but I thought that was a disadvantage for the podcast because they had probably already talked about those themes before and it didn’t flow as well as Meghan and Mariah’s conversation.

    Meghan’s voice continues to be excellent.

  31. Chantal says:

    After all of the hissy fits from the usual suspects, I decided to download Spotify. I really enjoyed this episode and the shout outs to groundbreaking musical divas, esp Leontyne Price. The transcripts were error laden with many misspellings so I went ahead and listened instead. Both ladies were in their element and loved the hair exchange. I have 4C hair and very tender headed so I could totally relate. The quote from Halle Berry, both women feeling like they didn’t fit in anywhere when younger, and Meghan’s acknowledging being hatefully treated as just a Black woman by the BM despite being mixed race was heartfelt and revealing. Lol at Mariah mentioning her book (which I’m definitely going to buy now) and not mentioning Nick. I missed last weeks episode so will catch and listen weekly.

    • Jewell says:

      Love your comment. I’m so glad you pointed that out. I bet Nick was expecting to get air time and he didn’t even come up lol.

      • Beach Dreams says:

        Tbh I wonder if Nick and his antics are why Mariah used exhausted and angry as two of the three words to describe herself today. The twins are 11 years old and just at the “right” age to be hearing and reading all about their father’s antics. Imagine being in middle school and having to deal with chatter about dad’s messiness. I wish them and Mariah well.

      • TheOriginalMia says:

        Yes! I’m glad Mariah didn’t mention him.

    • VIV says:

      Lol I too will be buying her book after this. Markle sparkle! (but also Mimi really was amazing in the conversation)

  32. Isa says:

    I came away from this interview feeling like I finally got to know Mariah underneath her diva-ness. Now she seems so much more relatable.
    Isn’t Ziwe supposed to be on the show? I feel like that’s gonna be a another very interesting interview.

    • Christine says:

      Same. I have never particularly enjoyed Mariah Carey’s interviews, but she really became relatable, for the first time in my life, with this interview.

  33. Jess says:

    Haven’t listened to it yet but am excited to do so. Just came here to give Celebitchy herself credit – didn’t she predict on your podcast that the topic with Mariah would be “divas”?

  34. KLO says:

    I have been a fan of Mariah`s since 1999. I listened to the interview today and found it very refreshing and pleasant ( I must have read or watched at least hundreds Mariah interviews in my time). If you´re a fan, I recommend.

  35. aquarius64 says:

    I haven’t listen to the podcast but I plan to read the transcript. The conversations on colorism is fascinating, so are the comments on Twitter. The usual suspects are trashing it. But I’m curious about any counter programming from KP. How are courtiers going to sell Kate as the future when she comes off as an intellectual lightweight? Kate could never carry off complex subject matter, especially globally.l

  36. Carrie says:

    Hey Archewell Audio, if you read Celebitchy could we please have longer episodes please. 60 minutes minimum. Love the podcast. Thank you! 🎉💝

  37. Margaret says:

    I signed on to Spotify, In antipation of meghans and harrys podcast. So glad I kept it. The serena, and now Mariah podcast have lifted my spirits, to not be ashamed of being ambitious, or having people dislike you for believing in yourself. Strange mostly women, are harder on each other, especially if they perceive another woman is more successful than them. I can relate to how they use diva in a negative way to describe the women they envy. Hope we can all learn from, these podcasts.

  38. TheOriginalMia says:

    I loved Serena’s, but Mimi’s was amazing. She can be so extra, but that’s just who she is. Mariah amazes me how she survived and thrived, when she could have easily fallen into the same patterns she witnessed with her mother (though, I believe she did to a point with Motola).

    These podcasts are giving so much black girl love.

  39. MangoAngelesque says:

    I find it so hard to get on the Mariah train. There have always been so many people — like, real world types, not industry people— who have talked about how horribly rude and awful she acts towards them. And not in a “please don’t photograph me coming out if the bathroom stall” way, but in the “if any employees look me in the eye, you’ll be fired” way.

  40. Imara219 says:

    Born in 83. My mom used to play Mariah’s first album non-stop. That was my introduction to Mariah Carey. When I was young, I thought she was white, like she seemed similar to Amy Grant. I was shocked when I learned she was biracial. I feel like I grew up with Mariah’s image. She was definitely marketed in a different way with her first album. I don’t remember the BET talk but it makes sense for that time period. I watched the first season of Suits. I thought Rachel was a white woman. I didn’t think she or the actress was biracial until much later. I’m a non-ambiguously dark skined Black woman, so I can see MC and MM both being described as passing. They really do look racially ambiguous. It’s interesting to hear their viewpoints. I love Mariah Carey I still listen to her albums all the time, Breakdown stats in constant rotation. Her voice is magical. That Honey reference took me all the way back to HS. 😆

  41. blunt talker says:

    The tender headed comments is what I dealt with as a child-my hair was very thick and got tender scalp after my mom or the hairdresser did my hair-hairdresser always told my mom I held a bad head-I was tender headed after she got through washing and combing out-PLease it hurt.

  42. CheChe says:

    Meghan does a phenomenal job of providing textual side notes with little clips to support the interview. I was so excited about the Leontyne Price story. The background research is stellar.

    • SAS says:

      Yes, it’s beautiful editing too, rather than the contextual information feeling like an interruption, it’s implemented in spots where it flows seamlessly from the conversation.

  43. L4Frimaire says:

    I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. Mariah is funny and insightful. Her speaking voice is deeper than I thought. The conversation about racial ambiguity and hair was good. I know some people didn’t like it but it got a lot of people talking and some good conversations. The part about feeling trapped in her 1st marriage was so interesting.Also, her saying she has always been ambitious and being so matter of fact about it. It was interesting how squeamish Meghan was to be called a diva and how she’s not quite there yet. Mariah meanwhile owns it unapologetically. The Amanda Seales segment was a good intro to the podcast. So many good insights, and opera as well! The conversation had me smiling the whole time.

  44. sammi says:

    Good to raise this issue of how you look and who you are because more and more inter-racial children are here to stay. I had a very complicated childhood as came from India and into a very catholic primary school with no humanity or understanding of racial issues let alone immigration settling in to a new culture. I am white, green eyes and now blonde hair………….my mum and elder brother are brown but he has green eyes. My dad was white/tan and grey eyes. Younger brother born uk and tan brown eyes. All our anglo-indian family are different shades. My mum was indoctrinated to love the english rulers and hate the indians…… She reads the Daily Mail! That is our problem with how damaged we can be and want to suck up to the Royals/media etc to fit in and be accepted. Divide and Rule still exists unless education and therapy can move the younger generation out of the mold. Meghan and Harry are in a prime position to help this change and that is why they are attacked relentlessly and need all the support they can get. ps Both brothers left UK to live and my husband left his family due to racism againgst me before they even met me.

  45. Soon Flower says:

    So you can all jump on my neck, it’s big enough, but

    I actually have had enough of this whole 🎪. Its very tiring. There are more important stuff going on. As it looks like clean water is in decline.. The hype of the whole war, has worn a bit of. It was a trend to acknowledge it for a while, but now 🤷‍♀️..

    Im beginning to see ‘cracks’ where I don’t wanna see them…

  46. swirlmamad says:

    This truly was a great convo. I was in the middle of listening and my older daughter came in and sat down listening to it with me. I definitely plan to listen to it again in full with her so we can discuss. My daughters are biracial, and my older girl has a darker skin tone and a coarser hair texture than my younger girl. You look at her and know she is mixed. However, my younger girl has a significantly lighter skin tone (to the point that especially in the winter months when she’s not exposed to the sun and tan, my husband who has blue eyes and Irish skin is darker than her!). Her hair is curly, but has a looser curl pattern and texture than her sister. When she was a baby she looked 100% white and I have been assumed to be the nanny several times rather than her mother (hurtful and humiliating as you could imagine). She still would be considered racially ambiguous now. My girls are sisters and share DNA but I have been well aware since they were born that they are going to have different experiences than I did as a black woman, and based on how society will view them. My job as their mother is to have these discussions with them starting now (it’s never too early) so that they can learn how to navigate this world and unpack all the questions they’re going to have about their heritage and who they are. My husband is a white man but he needs to be involved with these conversations too. Representation and acknowledgement is so important.