In December and January, the internet exploded with Kaley Cuoco stories. She said she wasn’t a feminist, then described all the ways she was a feminist as a way to explain why she’s not a feminist. At the end of the day, I said we should just stop arguing with her because there were only so many rounds we could go on that particular merry-go-round. I bring that situation up because something similar is happening with the ongoing Dolce & Gabbana controversy. At this point, I’m kind of like “ugh, stop arguing, these jagoffs are never going to ‘get it’.”
As we’ve been covering all week, the controversy began when Stefano Gabbana and Domenico Dolce made some comments about gay marriage, gay families and children born via IVF. Their comments went viral and Elton John was one of the first to call for a boycott of D&G. Stefano Gabbana responded by calling Elton a “fascist” for daring to disagree, and for thinking that children born via IVF are just normal kids instead of “synthetic children” who will obviously be screwed up in life because their parents are gay. Well, here’s the next part – Stefano and Domenico sat down with CNN to defend themselves and they literally DO NOT GET IT. They do not understand why their comments offended so many people.
You can see the video here. They don’t understand that they are allowed their opinion, same as everyone else. They don’t understand that if they make bigoted statements about LGTBQ families and their children, people have every right to react. That is what happens in a free society. At one point, Gabbana says: “Boycott Dolce & Gabbana for what? They don’t think like you? This is correct? This is not correct. We are in 2015. This is like medieval. It’s not correct.” Yes, we are not in medieval times. It is 2015. Why are YOU still happy to treat gay parents like second class citizens? Dolce also says some words about how he, personally, “believes in the traditional family” but that he doesn’t “judge” people who go through IVF. How generous.
Either they still don’t understand why people are upset, or this whole thing is just some stupid stunt. Either way, I hope we can stop arguing with them about it. In their original interview, they didn’t say “Oh, I don’t want to be a father, that’s not for me, I personally have traditional views on that kind of stuff.” They made sweeping and offensive generalizations about all gay parents and kids born of IVF, and it’s not “medieval” or “fascist” for people to react to their comments.
Photos courtesy of WENN.
ITAWY about why argue. I never understood why there are these interventions with people that are bigots or such. You are not going to change them. It would be the same as taking a tolerant person and asking them to become intolerant. People will be what they are. They can only change if they want to. Yelling at them and calling them names is not going to do it. They have to find a personal experience or something that touches them in a way that makes them open their eyes.
so yes stop arguing with them and just move on.
Yes and no. There is a time when it reaches a saturation point and makes no difference. But when prejudice is spewed, not saying anything and allowing it to stand unopposed, at least initially, is akin to societal agreement, especially if it is a very well publicized statement.
Ahh, a voice of reason. TY!
Yes. Silence = consent.
You have to say something initially to have the other side heard, but after a point it’s probably better not to engage at all, as lisa2 suggested.
Unfortunately, seeing that we are still living in societies where bigots still sprout their obnoxious views, these bigots need to be called out & shamed. Bigots need to be called out until everybody, regardless of race, gender & sexuality, is treated with the same respect & have the same legal rights
Don’t forget though, those rights include having views, whether obnoxious or no, that can be different than yours. Part of having the freedom to express our views includes allowing others to have views that we don’t share.
What is MEDIEVAL is their views on procreation and life.
I thought they are supposed to be in jail for tax fraud?
They are just ridiculous , stick to designing usually tacky clothes and let someone else do the public speaking from now on.
My two cents: arguing with them accomplishes nothing, true. But the boycott? I’m fine with that. (Not like I was wearing D&G anyway.)
They’re expressing a clear unwillingness to think about their comments and try to understand why people were upset. A dialogue is always worth attempting, sometimes people can actually learn and grow, but that doesn’t seem to be happening here. Bye.
Did you guys see Elton walking around with a D&G bag, the very next day after he called for a boycott?
yeah.
His rep said he did not shop at D&G, that Elton was just carrying the bag.
LMFAO. You’re kidding?
found the link!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2999023/Elton-John-seen-LA-holding-Dolce-Gabbana-shopping-bag.html
interesting…I will say that I keep some shopping bags for later use (why throw them away?…I use them to carry my shoes to work when I’m wearing rain/snow boots, etc.) and some bags are of such good quality that they can carry heavier items. I think that’s likely the case here, though WHY he chose THAT bag?…’cause he KNEW he’d get photographed holding it!
I think it was deliberate. he knew he’d be papped, and it’s kind of an FU to D&G…”I won’t buy anything from you, but I’ll use your quality bags to carry my OTHER sh*t around.” sort of like an “In your FACE, D&G!”
regarding their comments…they keep saying that they’re not “judging” and yet that is EXACTLY what they did…they judged IVF babies as “synthetic” and, therefore, not as worthy as “real” babies. ugh…they need to just SHUT. IT.
I have a whole basket of shopping bags and reuse them all the time until they break. Some of them are really sturdy and last a long time!
He totally did it because he knew he’d be papped, and though he has a truly legitimate reason to be pissed and speak up against them, he’s probably also enjoying the attention.
Given their advertisement recently in high end glossies glorifying gang rape, nothing should surprise the public about D&G’s leadership, who are actually the medieval half of the equation. The sorry truth however is that the add and these comments won’t stop rich people from buying their wares, yawning lazily as they stagger out of boutiques with their shopping bags loaded down with stuff costing tens of thousands, further enriching a couple of shites who think a glossy ad showing a man (who is actually probably gay) pretending to rape a sleek airbrushed model wearing D&G clothes while a group of other men (who also probably couldn’t get it up for a woman if their lives depended on it) stand around watching and presumably enjoying it and waiting their turn. I’d threaten to vote with my checkbook, but since I buy my shoes and makeup and sunglasses at Target and TJ Maxx, I suppose they don’t care.
They are probably so isolated from reality and hardship that I don’t have a hard time believing they don’t understand the backlash. I am all up for freedom of speech, if that’s how they feel regarding IVF and gay parents, fine, they are bigots but it’s their own opinion. What people do not understand is that with freedom of speech as with any other decision we make, there will be a consequence.
This is about more than bigotry and rights. Everyone seems to be forgetting about the children. A child resulting from IVF will want to know about the genetic connection from one or both biological parents not known. From what I have heard, this can lead to the child feeling that despite having loving parents, something is missing.
They also, in the past, made disparaging remarks about gays being married and having children. They said only a man and a woman should have kids. They back tracked on that.
Most children born through IVF *are* genetically related to both parents. Only a relatively small minority of IVF pregnancies involve donor eggs or sperm.
@Cynthia
“A child resulting in IVF will want to know about the genetic connection from one or both biological parents not known.”
So do children of adoption. So do children who’s Fathers or Mothers abandon them without contact. So do children who’s perfect white picket fence parents die unexpectedly.
Life from birth is completely unfair, again we’re putting the onus on infertile couples to make up for what we’ve been letting all other couples do without restriction. It’s similar to how marriage is so ‘sacred’ homosexuals shouldn’t be allowed to do it while heterosexuals can cheat to their heart’s content.
“It’s similar to how marriage is so ‘sacred’ homosexuals shouldn’t be allowed to do it while heterosexuals can cheat to their heart’s content.”
Amen. I’d add to that…not only cheat, but with a divorce rate above 50%, it’s clear that the heteros aren’t taking “the institution of marriage” very seriously.
but OH! those gays will just ruin it for everyone! not the heteros like Newt Gingrich and Rush Limbaugh who have been married four times. no, they take marriage VERY SERIOUSLY. /s
I agree. They have been surrounded by sycophants for so long that someone disagreeing with them blows their mind. The gang rape ad being published is another example of no one telling them when they have a bad idea.
And while I have read that being raised Catholic as the excuse, I call that bs. Maybe in Italy there is some more right wing version of Catholicism, but as with birth control, most Catholics are accepting of gays, gay marriage and IVF. Studies of North American Catholics show that they support these issues more than those who practice other Christian religions.
Or it could be that these two are just self hating assholes.
They are just digging a larger ‘stupid’ hole. Is D&G some religion or secular high-thought, where not buying products, or initiating a boycott, is equivalent to an inquisition? Is Elton going to give patrons ‘the rack’ if they buy a sack?
Seriously, these two are idiots.
I think some people think freedom of speech means freedom from repercussions stemming from what you say. We heard a lot of arguments yesterday, pro and con, for a boycott. A lot of self-righteousness about how unimportant this issue is compared to others, etc.. A boycott of D&G by me would be meaningless, as I don’t buy their clothes anyway. But I see nothing wrong with a person who does buy their clothes shopping elsewhere after these statements. The follow-up statements were as bad as the original statement. I think it was perfectly appropriate for them to be called out for disparaging remarks about children born of IVF, as well as their implication that gay parents are bad parents. But, as Kiddo pointed out in the last go-round, gays and other minority groups have always been told to sit down and shut up when they react to intolerant statements. I have a gay nephew and niece. They are two of the smartest, kindest and most loving people I know. They both want children, and any child would be lucky to have them as a parent. The remarks of these two men were hurtful and disgusting to me, and if I could show them that in a nonviolent manner by boycotting their products, I would.
I agree GNAT, I have family members as well.
“I think some people think freedom of speech means freedom from repercussions stemming from what you say.”
YES and YES!!!
it’s so f-ing tiresome when people say “I thought we had freedom of speech in this country” when someone they support gets sh*t for something they said. and I had this exact same discussion/argument with a coworker yesterday because some parochial school teacher around here was fired for saying anti-gay things on her facebook page. I was trying to explain that it’s likely the teachers at that school have some social media restrictions in their contract, and she was all “it didn’t say anything in the article about that!” never occurred to her that the info might not be IN the article but still might be true. when I pointed that out to her, then it was “I thought we had freedom of speech yadda yadda yadda” and I had to school her.
and I said just what you did…freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom from consequences…it just means you cannot be thrown in jail for what you say (threats of bodily harm not withstanding). she did NOT like hearing it, that was for sure!
I have taken some moments to organize my thoughts.
The difference, as I see it, between this matter and others (like Raif Badawi, that I raised yesterday) is that one one side, we have hurt feelings. Feelings are absolutely important. We have an interview about a person’s opinion, and it is ONLY that, his opinion. I stand firm that we, the people reading his opinions, can actually chose our responses. We can chose to be hurt, we can chose to try and educate, we can chose to ignore, we can chose action. But in the end, it is simply the opinion of one person.
On the other side, we have actual calculable damage being done. We have people who are being imprisoned, tortured, for stating their opinions on blogs, for liking facebook posts.
I find that a cause worth rallying people to, because it is so important that we defend their rights, their human rights. We sit here, typing away and debating, while others are tortured for doing the same.
Feelings and opinions VS actual calculable damage.
Does this make me self righteous? Yes, it would, if all I did was sit here and preach it. But I don’t, I do what I can every day, to try and help. It’s a small thing I can do. I can’t save them all, but that will not stop me from trying to save one.
You just spent a lot of effort gloating about Elton’s D&G shopping bag, where does that fall in high mindedness?
Original Kay,
I believe you mean well. But I can care about two things at the same time. And I care about gay rights. I care about my niece and nephew being able to live their lives without harassment, without people telling them that they don’t deserve to have children. I may be “choosing” to have a reaction to people who tell them they can’t because they’re not creating “traditional” families, but that’s my choice because my other choice is to ignore people who are trying to deny them full and happy lives. I won’t tolerate that.
I won’t be tortured for writing this. My heart goes out to people who are, and I applaud your efforts towards helping them. They are worse off that I am, and worse off than my niece and nephew. But they are not the only cause in the world, and I won’t use them as an excuse to tolerate anti-gay slurs.
You are obviously very intelligent. It puzzles me that you don’t see the irony of a woman who spends so much time on a celebrity website, talking about trivial happenings of trivial people, constantly harping on how she only spends her time and energy on the most egregious of human rights violations. Something doesn’t add up there.
Oh dear. My first reply was cancelled, probably because I posted a link to a website? I will try to rewrite it. Give me a few moments.
It went something like this:
Thank you for the compliment. I try very hard not to write in absolutes, so if you can please show me where I did I will rectify it immediately. I write, of course, of this passage :
“You are obviously very intelligent. It puzzles me that you don’t see the irony of a woman who spends so much time on a celebrity website, talking about trivial happenings of trivial people, constantly harping on how she only spends her time and energy on the most egregious of human rights violations. Something doesn’t add up there.”
This is where I posted a website link. I also mentioned I have an active twitter account to help, which is what the website said was very effective. I cannot travel to protest at embassies, unfortunately.
Please do not be tortured for writing about your family and for feeling D&G’s words keenly. Everyone needs a champion sometime, I think.
I then said something about yes, enjoying this site very much. There is usually a good discussion happening, and I find, for the most part, the opinions offered intelligent and well presented. I also very much appreciate the respect the writers give to their topics, especially the harder ones to read and write about (such as the Bill Cosby accusations). I live in the country, and the winters are long, so this provides some pleasure for my own down time.
@kiddo: to you I responded that “gloating” is but one interpretation of my above post. another might be passing on facts of something I had read, which I assure you was the intent. If you read, I did not offer my opinion on what I reported, I only reported and posted the link to what I read.
I do hope that clarifies things for you.
I am not infallible, however. I can only do my best, every day.
Original Kay, I never meant to imply that I didn’t believe you about your work. I do. I was only trying to point out that you can be interested in and support more than one thing at time, so others can as well. I wish you well and I’m glad you find time for this site, which I also enjoy very much for the reasons you expressed.
I’m just going to say that I think you’ve developed a wall between considering how humans work and society works in general. You are somehow suggesting if we ignore ignorant opinions of people in power with control and financial away over others that there will be no harm.
That is categorically historically totally inaccurate. Do you understand that support for gay marriage and gay rights only became more publicly acceptable once more homosexual individuals took the risk of coming out and showing a fearful public that they were just as normal as any heterosexual couple? No one is saying that we should ignore actual abuse occurring in other parts of the world, furthermore I’d argue it’s short sighted to suggest people cut themselves off from feeling passionately about one topic to help another. More conscientiousness people extend themselves to care more and attempt to help.
People who brush off situations as, “Well that’s just hurt feelings” tend to cloister and cut themselves off from situations that don’t impact their daily lives. The constant battle against reproductive rights in this country shows that you can’t ever let ignorance slip back in because it is like a poison that infects. If the general public becomes ambivalent to the feelings of homosexuals or IVF children then legal and moral public ambivalence soon follows.
You can see this in Ferguson with some people feeling, “Well they do commit crimes” not realizing an entire system has bent to punish a select group of people in spite of our modern world attempting to shun such behavior.
@ Amy
“somehow suggesting” is very vague. can you be more specific, where I stated we should ignore the ignorant opinions of the designers D&G?
@Original Kay
“I stand firm that we, the people reading his opinions, can actually chose our responses. We can chose to be hurt, we can chose to try and educate, we can chose to ignore, we can chose action. ”
Except your complaints aren’t about people being hurt or educating, between your comments today and yesterday you’ve expressed displeasure that people aren’t ignoring their comments in favor of causes you are in support of. You are in favor of educating and putting your energy into issues you feel passionate about and are unhappy others aren’t doing the exact same. Likewise you’re also spending your time enjoying the content of this website while also spending your time on your causes so the question is why you keep stressing how insignificant this is.
@ Amy
thank you for your response. That’s… a very interesting interpretation of my words.
Yes, I am in favour of educating anyone about any given subject, I do think seeking to educate and pass information in a respectful manner goes further than slinging disparaging comments or having an instagram meltdown.
“Except your complaints aren’t about people being hurt or educating, between your comments today and yesterday you’ve expressed displeasure that people aren’t ignoring their comments in favor of causes you are in support of.”
I’ve read your words carefully. I still do ask, however, where I specifically have stated any of this? Where I have stated I am displeased, or have complained? Displeasure?
For a quick recap: Elton is not anyone I myself, would follow, even though I do agree with his opinion in this matter. I might chose to express my thoughts on the comments of D&G another way.
I also believe that we, as a society, have become so accustomed to being able to mobilize an army on social media that we have stopped to wonder of we should- to what purpose and to what end.
While I fully support anyone’s right to chose what they want to support, it is also my wish to bring other matters to attention.
If a hashtag #boycottD&G can gain 30K retweets in the matter of a few days, over a good cause, yes, just think what we could do to prevent actual calculable damage.
Yes, ignorance needs to be addressed. Not in place of, in tandem with.
I hope this clarifies things for you, Amy, and for anyone else.
This has been a good discussion. I have read carefully and given thought to all opinions posted. It’s good to talk things out, and begin to understand another’s POV. : )
GNAT, well said. I have an old D&G dress and sweater that is going to Salvation Army, and I will not buy anything of theirs again. Which actually is no hardship, I’m not into their stuff anymore and spend less and less on clothes and accessories as I get older.
D & G can voice whatever opinions they want. And the buying public can support or boycott those opinions –with their pocketbooks– whenever they want. Communal pressure is the foundation of civilized society, good or bad. Laws are created that theoretically reflect common opinion to formalize collective behavior. Communal pressure to abide by cultural norms take care of the rest. It’s the beauty of a capitalist system. The public rarely gets it wrong in the long run. End of story.
So well said, Tracy.
Exactly.
It’s actually quite pitiful they’re relying on ignorance as a defense, “What??? We can not just say anything without any repercussions???? FASCISM!”
Alright dudes, good luck with that.
Nailed it.
If they answered to someone who has “synthetic children” I bet a full apology would have come out in record time.
And every time i’ve read something about synthetic children I think back ot that show Dark Angel and how awesome synthetic kids were.
Oh God thanks for the trip down memory lane, I loved that show! What is it about actors being young and hungry that makes their first shows so good?
They have the right to say offensive stuffs and i have the right to react badly about their commentaries
At the end of the day,i have the choice to buy or not their products as reaction to their commentaries.It’s my choice to boycott their products( like it’s my choice to not listen Bieber,West,Drake or Brown …..)
After Karl Lagerfeld’s commentary of the fat women ,i decided to stop buying Chanel products( i was a fan of Chanel’s Chance Eau Fraiche)
I am Italian. I have a friend who works for D&G in the haute couture department and she told me things about them I could have never imagined. I would have quit my job in no time. They’re douches of a feather but I’d still like to say something.
In the true nature of their statement we all have to consider their upbringing and the fact they don’t belong to the latest generation of stylist. Their parents are from the deep southern Italy and they’re probably in their 80s now.. All this just to say that even only to accept a gay son in those times meant to be really open minded but probably thinking of having kids in a gay couple is reaching.
I do believe it’s in their right to share their opinion on the matter but the choice of words is very wrong.
I don’t want to justify them but the concept of family for the Italians is something you fully understand only of you’re Italian.
I.come from the north and sometimes I don’t get the southern idea on some specific things like marriage, family, religion.
To each their own.
The governor of sicily is gay , the south of italy is not stefano gabbana.
I just wish celebrities weren’t leading this charge as all of them have major skeletons in their own closets.
I don’t know. It seems everyone would like to create a world where everyone has to agree or be super politically correct. I don’t really care what they said. I’m glad I grew up in a world where All In The Family was just a funny TV show and Don Rickles could instead the living daylights out of everyone. People are hypersensitive and if anyone wants to give their DG items away, I’ll take them!
Yeah it sure would suck if the world was super politically correct, imagine all those poor kids NOT being called synthetic. I mean come on! If a child doesn’t feel the cold biting sensation of undeserved racism, sexism, or ignorance then they’re really missing out on some great childhood growth!
not everyone in the world has to agree on every topic…for example, not everyone agrees on the best way to stimulate the economy…fine.
but when someone with (political/social) power tries to marginalize or deny basic rights to an ENTIRE segment of the population based on a biological trait (whether skin color, sexual orientation, etc.), that’s where most folks draw the line on agreeing to disagree. would you feel the same if they had said that people shouldn’t marry outside their race? or that mixed-race couples shouldn’t have children?
regarding All in the Family…it WAS funny, but you do realize that part of the humor was based on how idiotic Archie Bunker’s views made him look, don’t you? that the racial humor was making fun of RACISTS, not making fun of other races?
Agreed. It can feel like fascism at times.
You’re batting two for two Sara. Fascism and bigotry, no wonder you’re supportive of D&G.
right…some people boycotting a overpriced and overrated Italian fashion house is TOTALLY EXACTLY THE SAME as a dictator throwing the opposition in jail and torturing them for criticizing the government.
how did I not see that?… /s
people keep throwing out that “fascism” word…to quote Inigo Montoya, I don’t think it means what you think it means. consult 1) a dictionary and 2) a person who lived through Stalin’s regime and can tell you what fascism truly is.
If those of us offended by Dolce and Gabbana were truly “medieval” in spirit, we would be agitating for them to be burned at the stake or (literally) crucified. Instead, like modern post-Renaissance folk, some of us choose not to buy their products and to say so.
Christ, what a pair of assholes.
Except that a lot of tweets and things on social media WERE very violent and threatening. I’m sure that’s what they were referring to, not just that it was “medieval” to simply disagree with them. For goodness sake, they were just saying their opinion. They are just clothing designers, not lawmakers or political rulers or anything.
Totally should be boycotted
To me, their comments reeked of privilege: the privilege a man feels he has to comment upon a woman’s reproductive choices; the privilege of gay men who work in a world of fashion that embraces, accepts and helps promote the success of gay men; the privilege of celebrity that will ensure a public forum & exposure for their comments; the privilege of enjoying financial success (and the resulting bubble) unknown by many; the privilege of avoiding taxes upon that wealth; and by even the more subtle privilege of being in the habit of telling wealthy women – through their designs – what to wear.
If nothing else, I’m also rather amused that they are stupidly biting many of the editorial & fashionista hands who help keep them in business in the first place. But again: bubble.
I thought Elton John was collecting D&G items to auction for charity. Or was that someone else? Or were they going to burn them all? Lol
Anyway, social reaction and shunning ignorance is the only way to bring about change. And yup, they can think and say what they want. And we can react accordingly.
I suppose they were expressing ultimately a religious viewpoint whereby the natural family unit is as nature designed it – between a man and woman, with no external (scientific) intervention. I think they expressed it badly, but their point of view is not unacceptable or outrageous. They probably just think we should put the brakes on unlimited ‘progress’ and the belief that because I want to, I am entitled to.
I don’t think this point of view is bigoted; conservative yes, but aren’t all these things relative. I think it’s a lot more bigoted to declare them and their views unacceptable because they don’t conform with current thinking.
Undoubtedly they’ve handled the whole thing very badly.
It is medieval to boycott their line. Whatever happened to freedom of speech? It’s one thing to disagree with them, quite another to boycott their work, which isn’t half as bad as Elton John’s music these days.
It’s not at all medieval. It’s also voicing an opinion. Freedom of speech has consequences, and sometimes those consequences are financial.
…not spending money is medieval?
NOT spending money?
Not putting money in the hands of a company in which you don’t agree with the company founder’s ideal is medieval?
…do you really believe that or do you just convince yourself of that whenever someone disagrees with a bigoted opinion?
“Whatever happened to freedom of speech?”
still alive and well. no one is preventing them from expressing their opinions. freedom of speech does NOT equal freedom from consequences of that speech.
They need to recognize that free speech is a two way street. They said what they wanted, and now people are saying what they want. So they should either get over it or next time not say anything at all.
It’s hard to argue with idiots/bigots but it is important to say something in front of the children who could be harmed by their words. The kids need to know we adults will stick up for them – even with idiots and bigots. If we don’t, the kids might think the idiots/bigots are right.
So even though we know we might be wasting our breath, we have to do it anyway.
Some upthread said that ‘it wasn’t as if they were politicians or had any real power’–well, they are wealthy and influential, so yes, they DO have REAL power:
“Italian senator Roberto Formigoni even likened Sir Elton to the Islamic fanatics who murdered staff at the political magazine Charlie Hebdo.
In an extraordinary rant, he said: ‘The campaign launched against the two stylists by Elton John is shameful and intolerable.
‘Elton John is a Taliban, he is using against Dolce ad Gabbana the same methods used by Taliban against Charlie Hebdo.'”
I’ve seen this sentiment echoed by other Italian politicians.
D & G have tweeted/put out “Je suis D & G”
BECAUSE BEING CALLED OUT ON YOUR BIGOTED MIND SET BY A CELEBRITY IS EXACTLY LIKE A MASS SHOOTING THAT KILLS EVERYONE IN AN OFFICE!!
I hate getting into the minutae of these sort of things; it usually involves lack of context, clumsy expression, hyper-sensitivity, political correctness on steroids and people desperately looking for attention by picking a fight.
It’s all irrelevant to me. No matter what, I will always side with free expression. Whether I agree with it or not is utterly irrelevant.
100% agree. If more people could really support free expression there would be less war.