Zoe Kravitz is really morphing into her mom, right? In some of these Nylon Magazine photos, it’s like the second coming of Lisa Bonet. Zoe has been getting some attention this week, because it seems like she has a new boyfriend. A boyfriend NOT named Drake, Chris Pine, Penn Badgley, Mos Def or Michael Fassbender. Her new boyfriend is George Lewis Jr., stage name Twin Shadow. He looks a bit like Lenny Kravitz – go here to see some photos. I bring this up because Twin Shadow is quoted in the Nylon cover interview – they’re not doing cutesy I-won’t-talk-about-my-boyfriend/girlfriend stuff. Which I like. He says Zoe is “really so down-to-earth” and “natural.” You can read the full Nylon piece here. Some highlights:
Her privileged upbringing: “We had a chef, but it was never like, ‘This is the way the world works, Zoë.’ I knew we were very lucky, and my dad raised me in an old-school way. His mom was from the Bahamas, and it was about manners and making the bed. It’s that old black sh-t, really—like, you get smacked if you talk the wrong way. It was about having respect for your elders and being thankful for what we had. He wanted to make sure I had chores, and not because we didn’t have a housekeeper, but because of the principle of the thing.”
Trying to fit in with her mostly white school: “I’m just as white as y’all,” to her classmates. “I identified with white culture, and I wanted to fit in. I didn’t identify with black culture, like, I didn’t like Tyler Perry movies, and I wasn’t into hip-hop music. I liked Neil Young…[But] black culture is so much deeper than that, but unfortunately that is what’s fed through the media. That’s what people see. That’s what I saw. But then I got older and listened to A Tribe Called Quest and watched films with Sidney Poitier, and heard Billie Holiday and Nina Simone. I had to un-brainwash myself. It’s my mission, especially as an actress.”
She doesn’t want to be typecast because of her race: “I don’t want to play everyone’s best friend. I don’t want to play the role of a girl struggling in the ghetto. It’s not that that story isn’t important, but I saw patterns and was like, ‘I don’t relate to these people.’”
Wanting an audition for The Dark Knight Rises: “In the last Batman movie, they told me that I couldn’t get an audition for a small role they were casting because they weren’t ‘going urban.’ It was like, ‘What does that have to do with anything?’ I have to play the role like, ‘Yo, what’s up, Batman? What’s going on wit chu?’”
She didn’t think she’d get Mad Max: Fury Road: “It was the fourth movie I ever booked. I saw the trailer last summer and cried. It took a lot out of me. Being in such little clothing in the desert in a car for 12 hours a day—we all started to go a little crazy. But it was worth every second. I can’t believe I’m in it.”
Nepotism? “I’m hyper-aware that people are judging me based on who my parents are. You book jobs like Mad Max because of you and not because of your dad. George Miller doesn’t f–king care who my parents are. There was a point in my teens where I was very self-conscious and didn’t want to make any music because I would get compared to my dad,” she says. “But I knew I was working hard. I’m not a f–king genius, but I know who I am as an artist. The one thing about art is you can’t question it. Everyone is looking at everyone else to find out what’s cool. No one knows what’s cool. Just do it with confidence—no one can take that away from you.”
Nicholas Hoult on Zoe: “One of the highlights was watching Breaking Bad with Zoë while I knitted and she crocheted. Definitely old before our time!”
Rumors about Drake and Chris Pine: “Chris is like my brother. People will continue to think we’re dating because we will continue to hang out. We met through mutual friends years ago, and we just became like bros.” There was a “flirtatious moment” with Drake, she admits, and he’d been open about crushing on Kravitz before they met. But the reality of who she is was different from his fantasy, she explains. She maintains that they are “really good friends who respect each other and have a very similar sense of humor.”
OMG, Zoe crochets and Nicholas Hoult KNITS?!? How in the world did Jennifer Lawrence ever let him go??! As for the rest of it… Zoe has come into her own, especially over the past couple of years. I used to think she was sort of annoying, but now I enjoy her. That story she tells about The Dark Knight Rises… well, we already knew that so many of these studios are totally douchey about hiring minority actors. It’s not surprising but it’s disappointing that they wouldn’t even let Zoe AUDITION.
Photos courtesy of Nylon.
Gorgeous!
absolutely…and I thought her work in Mad Max was great. TOAST!
Really? Great in mad Max??? The one where the ‘wife models’ had more lines than her and she didn’t even make the cut as ‘favorite wife’? I was embarrassed for her. Cringe…..
yes, George, really.
not all acting is done with speaking lines, and I thought she did a good job.
cringe away.
She is stunning. That outfit is atrocious, though. The pants! The belt! The necklace! The hat! The belt! The crazy pattern! O_o
She really is a raving beauty. Hardy surprising given her genetic inheritance. Both her parents are raving beauties too
I really like her.
Same, she seems like a really cool chick. I love that she mentioned Sidney Poitier– he’s one of my all time favorites.
She has great style, that works for her. I can’t imagine that outfit working on too many others, though.
She reminds me very much of a friend I lost…very cool, very independent, from a privileged family, but completely not spoiled.
Me too. I have a girl crush on her.
You don’t have to call it a girl crush. It’s alright to say you’re gay these days.
Girl crush does not mean gay.
I like her too. And I think she’s a good actress, very natural in Divergent and Insurgent. I don’t care about nepotism when well-connected people are actually talented.
What a gorgeous girl. Takes after her parents.
She’s very beautiful but I think she’s a TERRIBLE actress. Void of charisma and wooden. She should focus on music/modeling.
Yes. I haven’t been impressed by anything I’ve seen her in. She just looks kinda blank, like KStew.
Yup.
She’s a charisma/talent vacuum. But still gets name checked for prominent roles and the big magazine spreads not withstanding.
And it seems like Zoe is perennially on these ‘hot-to-watch’ and ‘next-big-thing’ lists forever!
Name checked for prominent roles? Did I not just read that she couldn’t even get an audition for Dark Knight Rises?
@ORLY
That Zoe already has 2 big franchises, indie flicks and innumerable high profile magazine shoots to her name, despite being a talent void lends to said earlierpoint.
Her missing out on yet another blockbuster (Dark Knight Rises) to send some of us to sleep with does not negate that.
As much as I dislike that other annoying catatonic hipster Kristen Stewart, I at least understand that studios cast her hoping she brings the Twilght, ahem, fans with her to prop up her flicks.
I love the image of the two of them knitting and crocheting and watching Breaking Bad 😀 I want to learn how to knit.
Do it! I took up knitting and crocheting with a group of friends last year and it’s fab.
Plus it’s just great excuse to meet up, have a bitch ‘n stitch.
You absolutely should! I never took to knitting, but I adore crocheting…it’s relaxing and feeds my creative streak. I have infinity scarves in every color imaginable, and I make baby blankets to donate for preemies.
I taught myself from videos on YouTube, and the Craftsy app is great for tutorials as well.
It becomes an obsession 🙂
Too urban? For a movie set in a metropolis? What a bunch of twats these studios are.
Someone should explain to these racist douchebags that a dog whistle is only effective if, yanno, ONLY DOGS CAN HEAR IT. When absolutely everyone knows what you mean despite your sooper-sekrit KKKoding, you might as well just come out and say you don’t like black chicks.
Urban is sometimes used as a code word for black and not it’s original meaning of city. They were basically saying they didn’t want a black person in the role.
Another code word they use is when they say they are looking for someone “traditional” that’s code word for they are looking for a white person.
Or “too ethnic” looking.
@Marty: Yup!
Yup, code words folks. Ethnic and urban.
That’s exactly what I thought, too. Code.
Right, T. Fanty?! And it was for a SMALL role. Think about all the minority actors/actresses out there fighting for lead roles.
Yah one of my husband’s relatives came to visit us once in place somewhat different than the sheltered white suburb where he grew up, and he said it was less “urban” than he expected. And that was 20 years ago. So it’s been used that way for a while.
I couldn’t figure it out at first because actually a lot of the small roles in that movie were filled by minority actors (oh sorry “urban” actors, that’s the code right?). Then it hit me: There were a lot of minority men in supporting roles, but not women. The issues have issues!
My son is an actor, and it’s basically that casting has a picture in their head of what a certain character looks like, and often have a hard time thinking outside of that box. The roles often have a specific breakdown of characteristics that they are looking for, and that can include things like race, age, weight, height, hair color etc. They can call for a preppy or nerdy “look” (just examples) or require special skills (and levels of skill – like expert skier or comfortable on horses).
My son was up for a lead in a series, and although he nailed the character’s personality and everyone loved him, he ultimately didn’t have the right look for the director’s vision and was passed over. It’s much worse for people who have a specific ethnicity, though I have to say that we’ve seen many more auditions lately with a mix of ethnicities vying for the same role. Maybe things are slowly changing for the better, and the more we talk about it, the more it will change.
Ok, but the problem with having a picture in their head of a character’s appearance means that 99% of the time that picture is of someone white, or, even more troubling, if race/ethnicity isn’t specified then “default” or “traditional” also paints a picture of someone white. Assume white unless otherwise stated –> that’s it in a nutshell. Preppy, nerdy, silly, dumb jock, beauty queen, girl next door, MILF, bully, whatever: it all translates to “but also white.”
I see your point, AcidRock. But here’s the thing: when you read a book, don’t you conjure up a picture of what that character looks like? The author has a vision of what the character looks like, describes it to the reader, and then we create that vision in our head based on the description. The job of casting is to fulfill the vision of the writer or director in the same way. If they can’t do that, they don’t get work.
What we need are more people writing ethnic roles, and actually making those projects. And then people supporting them by paying to see it. Studios will only write/create what they think is going to make them money. It’s all about money. My kid only gets hired when the studio or network thinks he can sell what they are producing.
You’re right – I do conjure up an image while reading something, but, at least in the books I’ve read, much of the work is done for me by the author, and the rest is usually by societal conditioning: either there’s a sentence every third page praising the heroine’s “long flowing lustrous golden locks”, or in the absence of a description, my mind defaults to white because I’ve learned to associate that lack of detail with such. I don’t read “strong, tall, beautiful” etc. and think Asian or Bolivian unless I also read “dark hair, olive skin”.
And in the end, even if the casting director does have that image of a character in mind, I guess it says a lot that the image is so rigid, or IMPORTANT, that it can’t be broken. If he pictures a heroine as blonde/blue-eyed, but that really bears no relevance to the story or who she is or where she comes from, it’s a pity that he can’t realize blonde/blue can be anything else without diminishing the original vision.
You’re talking about something much bigger than entertainment. I agree with you wholeheartedly, but again, it’s a matter of dollars and our society needs to support ethnic roles and projects with their wallets. I’m a generation X’er, and while we are more open minded than the baby boomers, I think change is really coming from Generation Y and the millenials. They are being conditioned from birth to be more open minded…if we want to change our default settings, we need to start with our kids. And when our kids become the dominant financial power in our culture, we will start seeing the change you are describing. Or I can hope…
But changing this kind of conditioning takes time, and as I said, conversations like this are a small step in the right direction. And there are always exceptions to the rule – a real powerhouse talent can change the way a character looks. It does happen, just not as often as actors would like.
I really hope you’re right re: Gen X’ers. I just still think of the story when the first Hunger Games movie came out and, even though she was described as brown-skinned in the book, fans were legitimately upset and outraged that Rue was a little black girl because it didn’t jibe with whatever image they had imagined. I hope more tolerance, more funding for ethnic projects/roles occurs, to the point where they’re no longer even seen as “ethnic” projects but just Girl A and Boy B falling in love or solving a crime.
I believe that day is coming, AcidRock. Things are still grossly unequal now, but younger generations are not accepting the status quo. They are interconnected in a way that we have never seen before, with unprecedented access to their heroes. They question and challenge our ideas on society, culture and race in ways that I never could. But I’m proud that my generation is learning to see things differently, even though most of us were raised with these strict ideas on self and race, and many of us are encouraging our own children to think differently. We rebelled against money as the end all be all and naked ambition – hence, the slacker generation label. It was unfair, because boomers created us, but they also call the millenials “special snowflakes”, which is also unfair. Our kids are rebelling against the slacker idea by becoming the ultimate consumers…their kids will question their parents values…and so it goes…
The ivory tower is weakening at the foundation, and I think it’s awesome. A conversation like ours would have been almost impossible when I was younger, and I’m not sure I would have even have participated if it was. Race was simply something that we didn’t talk about, and I was never encouraged to consider our differences. We were all too busy trying to pretend race didn’t exist.
What is a “specific ethnicity”? I’m guessing WASP isn’t on the list.
“and by saying too urban, what we really mean is too black”
Crazy thing is that it happens in the music biz too.
i write and perform music, for myself and for pop folk, and when writing for certain pop stars, they have one more than one occasion, said hmm we like the song but it’s a little too gospel and then hired a white female vocalist, and then on urban sells, have said its a little too classic and hired a black vocalist. I’m a mixie thus according to execs makes it a hard to sell a song when the voice isn’t clearly racially defined. You’d think originality would be desired in the entertainment industry.. sadly.. it’s not. We have yet to evolve…
I like her more now.
The last few years she really has morphed into Lisa.
I appreciate her honesty in having to discover her own heritage as an African American while growing up with privilege.
Because ultimately, it doesn’t matter how much money fame or access you have, eventually the world and reality will let you know how black you are
Just saying.
Yup, don’t matter your economic background, education, neighborhood or school you can’t outrun your skin tone. I think a lot of people for various reasons have that epiphany that slowly allows them to realize there’s not a hard wall between AA culture and their own experiences and likes.
“It’s not that that story isn’t important, but I saw patterns and was like, ‘I don’t relate to these people.’” THIS is how every actor who wants to complain about playing or being typecast as the sexy girlfriend or dim bro sidekick should frame their answer, and not say that you’re too beautiful or the story sucks.
I wonder about this, though. Isn’t it a mark of a talented actor who is able to slip on that different hat and find a way to portray a character, even if there is no personal relation to that character’s back story or personality? Should her goal be to only play a “bohemian/hippie” girl from an insulated background, or she take a stab at the drug addict, the litigator, or even, yes, the girl in the ghetto?
I agree, AcidRock, a good actor can do that. I just find that the ones who have no range and can only do well in a strong ensemble, no matter the part, are blaming their looks or the script or coming up with a reason other than their own lack of talent to explain their sucking. I think what she said is gracious without being dishonest; if Amber Heard or Jessica Biel said “I’m trying to cast my net wider than sex object/girlfriend in films because I don’t identify with that,” I’d be more understanding than when I hear “my looks are holding me back.”
She isn’t saying she can only play bohemian/hippie. She said she noticed a pattern, which in her case and the case of many actors of colour means the girl from the ghetto or “urban” were all the roles she was being offered. She wasn’t being given the opportunity to portray others roles if all she is being offered is “the urban friend” or the token black girl.
In a perfect world, it would work this way. But 99% of the time, the actor just doesn’t have that kind of control, and talent doesn’t really figure into the equation. If entertainment was made based solely upon talent, it would look MUCH different than it does.
Zoe is a little mixed up on the black and white thing. Not all black people watch Tyler Perry or listen hip hop. That she thinks being black is about that is scary.
I’m really hoping she does not hold such a narrow view .
The way I read it, it seemed like she was giving those things as superficial examples of what she used to think black culture was about due to her privileged upbringing. Then she educated herself a little more, and found more depth to her cultural identity as a woman of color. I really respect the fact that she was open enough to share her journey there.
However, I could be totally misguided on this one. Just describing the way it read to me.
You’re not mistaken Shambles. It’s right there in her follow up statement when she says that she had to un-brainwash herself.
I appreciate her candor.
Exactly. Those are the ‘BLACK’ things that are held up in the media, I have white friends who know NOTHING about black people or their habits/likes but know Tyler Perry. Tyler Perry and Oprah.
Maybe where she was brought up being black equals watching Tyler Perry movies. It’s called stereotypes, and when we are young and trying to fit in, stereotypes play a big part on deciding where or who we want to be.
Maybe she mostly knew black people who enjoyed TP movies. There are way too many factors at play to just dismiss her comment. at that time, that is how she saw the world, and felt like she didn’t belong because she didn’t enjoy those things. I’m sure now she knows better.
Well she did say that was what she thought when she was still being brainwashed by media stereotypes only to eventually learn that black culture is more nuanced and complex then what was being feed to her.
What I want to know is, if Lenny was giving her an old school black upbringing then why didn’t he instill some pride in her in regards to her African American heritage to counteract the brainwashing? Most black people know that the media puts a negative spin on anything black related, so why didn’t he and Lisa fortify her with love for black culture?
I think that’s exactly what she’s saying? She said that she didn’t identify with some superficial parts of black culture because they didn’t resonate with her as a teen, which is pretty typical teenage identity crisis stuff. But then she got older and had more exposure to black art, film, and music, she realized that she was wrong and that being black and creative was about a lot more than that.
This exactly. She was making the point that growing up around mostly white people, she had been fed this very narrow view of black culture, one that was essentially filtered through a white lens.
But Jinni does make a good point above, though – even if she did grow up around mostly white people, with 2 parents who are each half-black, did they not make any effort at all to instill in her a sense of identity or pride in that side of her heritage? It’s astounding that she was indeed fed a “very narrow view of black culture, one that was essentially filtered through a white lens” rather than deriving this directly from the black folks in her family. That she didn’t see or identify with anything beyond Tyler Perry and hip-hop shows a real lack of awareness by Lenny and Lisa as to what their own daughter was interpreting to be the “black experience.” It’s not just that she didn’t dig TP or hip-hop, but that she didn’t know or care to look beyond those instances, nor was she apparently given a reason to do so by her parents, as to *what else* constitutes black culture.
She should have given better examples. Being black is about more than what kind of music you listen to or the movies you watch.
@AcidRock
I had a friend in college who was African, grew up with two black parents and was darker skinned herself by grew up in a (at the time) completely white suburb. She was amazingly clueless about her own heritage and past because her parents never really tried to sit her down and talk about it. Furthermore they were working so hard to assimilate that they figured it was better to not bag her down sith the tension of the conflict. It took her till college to seek her own path which seems about the age Zoe also had her epiphany.
@FingerBinger
Cliches are examples of something made intentionally ludicrous to prove a point.
That is exactly what she said. She admits that she was mixed up about the black and white thing, and that being black is about more than watching Tyler Perry movies. Did you read what she said?
She’s giving examples of what she *previously* thought it meant to be black…
I’d like to know more about what black culture is. There are so many countries with majority black populations. They all have different cultures. So, what do people actually mean?
It is like saying there is a “white” culture. There isn’t.
I apologize for my ignorance, but what I see on the TV, when I do turn it on – hip-hop and rap don’t appeal to me at all. I am OK with jazz and blues, but don’t really like them either. I feel they are too busy sounding.
I like her. But again, the denial of nepotism. She wouldn’t even get these auditions for movies like Mad Max, if they weren’t aware of who she was. Because let’s face it, she’s not that great of an actress. But she semi acknowledge it.
I like her too. I don’t think she’s exactly denying she receives nepotism, just saying that George Miller doesn’t care – which, given that Elvis’ granddaughter is also in Fury Road, I don’t know if I totally buy that he doesn’t care at all. But she could definitely acknowledge that she’s in a position to compete for roles like that bc of her privilege in life.
She was ok in Divergent, nothing special though.
Every time I see something about her, I think she slept with Michael Fassbender and am a touch jealous. LOL
Urban? She is from the hippiest family ever.
Urban = black.
She’s not the greatest actress but there are a ton of other actress with far less talent who get ahead so I don’t mind her success. And she acknowledges her privilege.
So beautiful…and such a bad actress. Good GOD she was terrible in X Men.
Unfortunately, she was. Which is a shame, because she sounds so smart and down-to-earth. Hope she gets better at her acting, she’s so much more interesting than many starlets around.
Zoey is not a good actress, that seems enough to refuse her an audition.
I agree. She’s awful
Ok, but in the context of “don’t bother to audition because you’re too ethnic” this really is a moot point. There are plenty of white actresses who can barely carry a line yet no one denies them opportunities because they’re too blonde or too blue-eyed.
@freebunny. That’s a over simplification of what this is about. There are plenty of terrible white actresses who are auditioning or getting high profile jobs. Not to mention white male actors.
“Zoe is not a good actress”
Was Blake Lively a good actress, then? Jessica Biel? Johnny Depp’s wife? Kate Bosworth? and yet they kept getting opportunity after opportunity at various points in their careers, based on literally nothing other than being white and conventionally good-looking. Not a lick of acting talent between the four of them, and yet that never stopped them. Probably because they didn’t look “too urban”.
@AcidRock – you forgot, Mrs Depp is apparently being denied opportunities now because she’s “too beautiful”.
Oh goodness, the whole “I’m too pretty for anyone to take me seriously” nonsense. Hahaha. Wow. What a hard life.
Just came To say that Twin Shadow’s Music Is INCREDIBLY sexy! Like Superbly so
Her comment on Batman is good info about the process of casting. They don’t cast actors on acting skill but on looks. And if accidentally they also have talent – better.
JLaw resembles Joy’ s persona and Katnis’
Theron fits Furiosa
RDJ is a perfect real life smart ass, so wht not be one on screen?
Where exactly is the acting?
We’ll have you seen these movies? There is no actual acting is required the actors/actresses are all phoning it in and the fans are with that.
I love her. That is all.
the batman movies are sopposed to be in gotham city not unlike newyork didnt they have several people of different ethnecities i mean big cites arent filled with just white people, most of those alleged hollywood power people are idiots by that standard they should go and only audition in whites only country clubs.
She has great style. I love it!
I like her a lot! And apparently she’s really good in Dope (that indie movie produced by Pharrell).
She’s beautiful.
I love Lenny. That’s all. Always have, always will.
He bf looks just like Lenny. I know there is a saying that some women date men like their fathers, but that is a little to close to home.
I don’t know, i think her acting is fine. she was good in divergent, i mean, it’s no masterpiece but she held a few scenes well. cant say much of her in mad max cause she was mostly in the background, but there are far more worse second generations actors before her in my opinion. at the very least she’s aware her family name opened doors for her, which not many would admit it, so as far as her personality goes i really like her
So many are saying she’s a bad actress , I love him but if channing tatum can find success so can she.
He is a terrible actor and just pure eye candy (and honestly? I find fassy, skarsgard and others sexier).
yeah, but Potatum is still successful. Highly successful.
Like khymera says, on talent they are equal and if he can be successful, logically there should be nothing in her way.
God, i hate septum rings. They are so gross. What about when you sneeze and spray snot everywhere? Sorry to be graphic but you must think about these things. Also, they are just not attractive looking.. People look like bulls. i just don’t get it.
Nose/septum rings can be removed, you know. Piercings are not the same thing as tattoos.
And nose piercing is traditional in quite a few cultures, so nice to know you feel the need to let us all know how concerned you are for the hygiene of ring wearers, as if people don’t have the common sense to take out their septum rings when they start to get the sniffles.
For the new Spider-Man in the SONY leaked emails there were apparently two hard firm lines about Spider-Man’s casting.
1. He couldn’t be black.
2. He couldn’t be gay.
So shoutout to all the folks who deny the problem and say “Oh if you support the black movies/actors then OF COURSE studios will change their minds” despite all actors saying to the contrary.
If you can’t even get an audition then how are things fair? Code words like ethnic, urban, exotic, non-traditional and more are thrown around all the time to politely get the message you’re never going to get this job.
I was looking for you, Side-Eye, as I am learning a lot from your comments. But I’m not sure Spider-Man is a good example. This is an iconic character who has been around for decades, has an extremely strong and demanding fan base, and has been historically white and hetero. Making him black or gay would go completely against the entire history of this character, so they need to stay true to that. What would be the purpose of making Spider-Man either of those things?
The entertainment industry is not fair – it’s extremely biased and often based upon shallow ideas. Same as modeling, or any other industry where your looks matter. Changing spider man won’t make your point, but where else do we start?
So as a comic book nerd I want to explain this issue a little.
So far in a very short amount of time we’ve had (now) 3 reboots of the same Spider-Man Story. High-school aged Peter Parker with the traditional comic. 5 films between Tobey McGuire and Andrew Garfield. When news came they were doing yet another Spider-Man reboot the fanbase got excited about Spider-Man being played by a black actor. You see while some comic book heroes have really only had one version or incarnation of themselves Spider-Man just like Green Lantern has had 2. There’s the white Spider-Man (Peter) and the black Spider-Man (Miles).
This isn’t Spiderboy, this is a character who is Spider-Man, who has this legacy passed onto him by Peter, and who is recognized by that title. So again, after two reboots there was a major swelling of fans WANTING to see this character also given a spotlight. This wasn’t a small group of people either. This was a major fan-based appeal with people writing to studios, contacting Donald Glover (who many wanted to see him as the role), and more. Studios KNEW that after two films with the same iteration of the white Spiderman that there was demand for a film with the black spiderman. Studios also knew that people felt the 2nd reboot of Spiderman was mostly useless so what did they do?
1. Sent a specific memo saying NO black Spiderman and
2. Did a third rehash of the exact same Spiderman movie when the 2nd movie did poorly at box office and there were many complaints from fans that they were tired of the same thing over and over.
When we discuss representation it effects us in all levels, I agree the industry is shallow but not fighting it only allows sameness to exist unabetted. There’s also the issue of the contentious relationship between blacks and the world of science fiction (namely that blacks tend to disappear when it comes to a vision of an alternative universe). This also happens with video games where the ‘fantasy world’ always seems to end with the main character existing as a male in a world made up of other men or women who serve only as damsels to rescue or eye-candy to ogle. So I’d say these little things still add up to a broader truth of : 1. You will not be properly represented 2. Your representation carries the perception of being ‘urban’ (as Zoe said there’s some implication that merely for being black she’d have been speaking Ebonics when Batman enters the room. 3. Your opportunities are not equal. All of which I believe are very important no matter what form of medium they exist in: books, movies, comics, modeling, acting or etc. Little steps make large journeys.
Wow, thank you for your detailed explanation…I have a general knowledge of comic books, but nowhere near your level of understanding. For example, I thought the black Spider-Man just referred to his black costume vs. the traditional red spider costume. I didn’t realize there was a separate character named Miles, who was actually black. I assumed the black costume just meant he was a darker, more complex character – angsty Spider-Man, if you will. Maybe another problem is the use of the color black to mean bad or evil – like the black hat and white hat in westerns?
So based on your comment (which I read five times and I hope I’m understanding properly) I’m wrong and Sony is wrong. But if the fans want to see Miles, it seems completely counterintuitive not to give him to them, regardless of his skin color. Unless the general public has the same level of understanding that I do. This isn’t an exact comparison, but as a brunette who adored Wonder Woman as a child, I would have been pretty upset if they decided to cast Wonder Woman as a blonde. I can’t even explain why it would matter if the actress they hired was talented – except that she was a bad-ass, gorgeous brunette superhero in a world of blonde-worship, that I could relate to as a child, so Hollywood shouldn’t mess with her. I can’t be alone in that.
Personally, I wish hollywood would stop the reboots altogether and give us something new. But as long as we are going in droves to see the same old thing, that’s what they are going to give us. I’ve heard that they are remaking one of my old faves – The Breakfast Club. I was too young to see it in the movies, so finally being old enough to watch it was something of a rite of passage. What would happen if they took those iconic characters and changed their ethnicities? I actually would enjoy that, as I think it could really deepen the character exploration, but I’m sure many of my generation would hate it and say it wasn’t a true representation of American suburbia in the 80’s. It’s almost as if they would have to fast-forward the time frame to the present in order to see non-white faces – as if there were no other ethnicities in suburban towns at that time.
I was going to touch on how the Asian markets are driving what hollywood is making as well, but I wonder if that’s too OT? Would Asia accept a black or gay Spider-Man? It seems like hollywood is catering to their tastes these days, and much of the financing for the big movies is coming from China. As I mentioned in comments with Acid-Rock above, I think change is coming. Generation Y and the Millenials are questioning race, culture and stereotype in a way we haven’t seen before. I believe that this will eventually trickle down into the diversity we see in entertainment, which in itself will perpetuate change in generations to come.
@Shannon1972 – Asian markets are a lot less hung up on ‘white-only’ leads than Hollywood seems to think (or to use as justification for not hiring black/minority leads)
Will Smith movies have been smash hits in Asian territories, Furious 7 is one of the highest-grossing movies of the year in China and Korea, pretty much any big franchise has a good chance of making big money there as in the US, irrespective of the leads’ skin tones (the actual way the studios pander is by casting A-list Chinese/Korean/Japanese actors in small supporting roles, hoping that their home audiences will turn out to see them).
Hi teacakes…thanks for the info. I appreciate your chiming in here. Will Smith is very popular with white audiences as well, and so is the fast and furious franchise, so I may be missing your point. These are movies that appealed beyond any ethnic boundaries, but why is that?
I’m not disagreeing with you, but ive read that Asia hires many a-list, white american stars to promote products instead of their own celebrities. I read an article (I don’t remember the publication, or I would provide a link) about Chinese companies hiring white actors to pose as executives. And white models to do “pageants”. I was stunned by that. In any case, these are only a few examples, but they speak to a wider viewpoint. If these stories are actually true, and as widespread as they are implied to be…at the least, I think these trends tend to support hollywood’s view of the markets there. At the worse, they perpetuate the myth.
In regards to the comic I think while brighter colors have been used to signify good guys vs. bad guys there has also been one very popular good guy who’s frequently in black: Batman.
One thing that has come up a lot is that when there’s not a lot of diversity there tends to be a lot of group think, even when statistics don’t match the logic. Hollywood is made up of a majority of older white male individuals, as a result they tend to hire amongst their ranks, make less effort to diversity, and have less faith in minority work. This discussion really came up when there was so much discussion on the ‘sudden’ influx of a number of minority shows. Basically how all the individuals involved with the shows knew that minority work tended to be given less room to improve, be cancelled faster, and have one cancellation used as an excuse not to promote another show.
When it comes to Hollywood there’s been a big discussion about how studio heads are ignoring a large portion of the population by not offering movies or shows they can relate to. The default is white and even when a minority is successful studio heads still make excuses as to why promoting that minority won’t work. As teacakes said Denzel specifically has been very successful overseas and yet SONY emails executives argued it wouldn’t be worth it to promote a movie with him. This leads to black actors having to create their own studios to feature and promote their work but how many have the money and establishment to do that?
I fully understand what you mean about Wonder Woman and she is one superhero who did have a very defined look. Though it seems surprising to see it that way as a brunette in the superhero world Wonder Woman was a minority, so you would see your portion of representation removed.
Btw going back to what I said earlier about studios denying a portion of their audience I want to say that in terms of box office American movies are suffering. You’re right that Asian and overseas audience are huge to studios, but they’re depending on an overseas box offic to supplement their own failings right here. Logically that’s putting a bandaid where you need a tourniquet. Sure there’s many reasons why the U.S. box office is lagging but it can’t be dismissed that not appealing to 50% (or more if you include women also frustrated they aren’t being represented in movies) or more of the population is definitely hurting them.
China and Japan are developing their own studios and talent featuring their own actors. It won’t be too far off that the U.S. can no longer depend on them to fix the many box offices they would have had without them. Still, I think in general at least when it comes to action in Asia there’s no hesitance to accept black actors.
ETA:
In the U.S. the success of shows like Blackish, How To Get Away With Murder, and Empire should be sending a message to movie studios that there’s a demand and hunger for movies where a main character is a minority and has normal interactions with others, where they’re not simply a token. Spider-Man the 2nd reboot did moderately well in theaters and the feedback from comic-book fans and casual viewers was that there wasn’t a need for a reboot that was the same as the original Toby McGuire trilogy. Now we’ve got a third reboot with an even more predictable storyline and an even more unknown actor (meaning he doesn’t bring a fanbase with him). It seems like many don’t want to admit the world has changed more than they believe it has (this also happens with politics, politicians tend to believe their constituents are more conservative (even among liberals) than they really are).
I think I see what you are saying. Batman would be an exception to the bright costume rule, but again, based upon my limited knowledge of the comic, I always thought it was because he was a dark, angsty character in general. To the best of my knowledge, it’s the villains in Batman that are brightly dressed. Sort of turns the white hat/black hat trope on its’ head. Then again, Spider-Man and batman are heroes that became so because of things that people generally fear (spiders and bats are scary). So their stories are based upon harnessing fear to help others.
I had a small “aha” moment when you pointed out that had Wonder Woman been cast as a blonde, I would have lost my representation in the comic universe. I hadn’t really considered it from that perspective, but based upon my surprisingly strong feelings about Wonder Woman’s hair, it gives me a small insight into the way other ethnicities feel about their lack of representation (and the “less-than” feelings that can conjure) in entertainment.
At some point, Hollywood will have no choice but to change their ideas about diversity. Once the overseas markets start showing their displeasure, there won’t be a band-aid left to apply to their dwindling business. Then where will they turn? It just seems inevitable to me, but whether or not it happens in my lifetime is another story…perhaps Hollywood will eventually become irrelevant. I can see platforms like YouTube taking over for TV and movies the way they took over from radio. My kids watch their favorite YouTube channels as enthusiastically as I watched Saturday morning cartoons. Hollywood’s inability to change will eventually render it obsolete.
I wish I had more to add, as I’m really enjoying our discussion, but you’ve given me a lot to think about. Just want to say thanks for being so generous with your knowledge 🙂
My pleasure Shannon! I really enjoyed the discussion too and yup, maybe it’s not always discussed but I think generally we all on some level recognize the cues the world sends us.
The good girl is blonde, the bad girl is a brunette. Those messages sink beneath the skin and effect us so when someone does manage to flip the trope and show the brunette as a hero they’re intentionally disrupting a message that is so repeated its almost become tradition. Representation matters for EVERYONE.
“Too Urban”
She looks nothing like Keith Urban.
Hmph. Tough crowd.
I don’t know what she’s like as an actress, but she sounds a damn sight smarter and more self-aware than Kristin “I lit my universe on fire” Stewart, who I believe is the same age as her. (also a good question to ponder: would Kstew have ever got the opportunities she’s had, if she was black but had the same talent levels, attitude and surrounding controversies?)
and accounts like Zoe’s are also a huge part of why cultural appropriation (as discussed in the Amandla Stenberg/cornrows articles of a few days ago, many thanks to Eternal Side-Eye, Kitten and others for your contributions there) is an issue.
Because no matter how much “colour-blind” people bang on about how minorities/people of colour are the real villains for seeing RACE, RACE, RACE everywhere because without them white people would just get to wear headdresses/bindis/cornrows in peace……..guess what, POC in the western world do NOT have the option of ignoring their own race or not seeing it! Because inevitably, someone else (someone not of your race) will see it and use it against you. Like the casting directors here. Even a girl raised in extreme privilege like Zoe isn’t free to just not see her race as a part of her, because the casting director did it for her.
And being ‘race-blind’ as a child, which some people seem to think is a reality and ideal for children of all races, doesn’t seem to have been any benefit to her because she had to deal with those questions as a young adult, which sounds like it wasn’t easy at all.
So true.
> guess what, POC in the western world do NOT have the option of ignoring their own race or not seeing it! Because inevitably, someone else (someone not of your race) will see it and use it against you
Unkind people would use anything against you – how you look, how you walk, how you talk, how you raise your kids, you religion or luck of it, you ethnicity. The list is endless but in the end it is not about race. Every person has experienced being judged unfairly, I assure you. I think this is whites get defensive about being accused of racism. Whites are judged too for other things and they also get judged by other races. You just judged me unfairly, I would say.
“whites get defensive about being accused of racism.”
Bingo. Thank you for (probably) providing a beautiful illustrative example of that with your own comment.
I mean really, who likes Tyler Perry movies? I love her. She’s real.
Many people, especially those who can relate to them. I love her too.
Court is out on my impression of her. Ive seen her out and thought she was great but I’ve also heard she’s snotty. Do love her film goals though but she grew up with a mixed idea of what her identity is and that’s clear.
I bet she wanted to audition for the role that went to Juno Temple.
That’s what I was thinking as well.
And Zoe is like watching cardboard when she acts. Her jawline is ridiculous though. She sounds like she’s got a decent head on her shoulders.
Zoe is gorgeous. I hate when people try to say “too urban” like they think it’s a Safeway to say we don’t want a black person for this role. Charlize said on Mad Max all the girls knit and Nicholas Hoult knit with them. That makes me like Hoult even more.
Is anyone shocked by the Dark Knight Rises thing? Nolan is SO WHITE. He always puts a white-friendly token black actor in his movies and that’s it. The rest he casts with lily white actors.
Nolan likes to cast the same people over and over. I think he casts those he is comfortable with with an eye on the future. He cast Ann again in Interstellar even though she didn’t seem right for that role. She stuck out like a sore thumb. But incidentally I actually loved her as a Cat Woman in the Dark Knight. I think she did an excellent job there.
He is awful with casting women…he casts the wrong women all the time. Anne sucked as Catwoman. It was Anne playing Catwoman. She didn’t disappear into the role at all. It was cringey at times.
He also should get someone else to edit his movies.
How about Marion Cotillard’s horrific death scene in TDKR? If I were her, the trust would be GONE. I’d never work with him again. I still can’t believe he put that in the final cut. In general, Nolan cannot write for women, cannot cast them, cannot direct them, etc.
I think your comment is very interesting and I’ll be off to google her death scene but damn girl…your screen name stopped me in my tracks. MAJOR Sweet Valley fan when I was a little girl! Love your name!
Yeah, Nolan comes off much like Woody Allen in terms of casting. They can’t conceive of non-whites being anything outside the boxes they insist on putting them in. For Nolan, that box is the “Wise Old Negro;” for Allen, it’s “Black Hooker.” There’s no excuse (outside of racism) for their writing/casting practices. Both have their pick of two generations of great non-white actors, but they never hire them–or, in Hazelle Goodman’s case, give them poor minor roles.
Too urban? WTF does that mean? She is breathtaking. She would be perfect as poison ivy or some other bewitching female bad guy.
I don’t think her guy looks anything like her dad
I first saw her in a teen movie I can’t remember what is the name of it in Insurgent/ Detergent something (???). My brain is fried after the day at work. I keep thinking “Detergent”. Oh, “Divergent”!
Anyway I really liked her because of her charisma. I had no idea who she was and I actually thought she was hispanic, not black. But anyway, I am really surprised to see people saying that she has no charisma. I think she has tons. And she is so beautiful.
I notice the little things, the subliminal things, like when they actually DO cast black actresses, even in small parts…why is the black girl the bitchy one? Even in Nolan’s ‘inception’, why was the girl Elle’s character bumped into the one who had to be the aggressively character who pushed her? And that’s a small extra role and was completely unneccessary when she was the only black person who walked the street. So it must have been deliberate.
It’s so weird. It’s like they are subliminally trying to make people annoyed with black people…IDK, I’m just thinking out loud.
I swear sometimes I have the same thoughts, call it what you will but when minority individuals are so totally underused you become hyperaware of HOW they’re used.
I don’t know if I’ve seen her anything so I can’t speak to her work, but she is beautiful and has a unique style. I idolized her mother when I was a kid!
Hollywood sucks.
She’s a beautiful girl but the whole “couldn’t relate” to certain characters thing is irksome. Actresses don’t always relate to their characters – it’s called acting. They research and study and learn the character. She sounded a bit K-Stew there. I’d kill to see Kristen play a peppy cheerleader or something just because it’s SO outside of her box…
Love her but it pains me when kids of famous people say they didn’t get where they are because of their parents and having a famous name. So sheltered! It’s embarrassing! Her parents should educate her!
She always talks about her famous dad like she has no idea of how famous her mother is/was.