John Bradley (Samwell Tarly): Daenerys was ‘psychopathic’ in the ‘Winterfell’ episode


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Spoilers for Game of Thrones.

Yes, we’re still talking about Game of Thrones. The final season of GoT premiered on Sunday (see my recap here), and that freed up some of the cast members to talk in a bit more detail about certain plotlines – because before the premiere, no one could say sh-t. John Bradley plays Samwell Tarly, the Citadel dropout and BFF to Jon Snow. Sam has always bugged me – he’s clearly the GoT avatar of George RR Martin, and as such, Sam is just given too much time within the GoT world. His storyline could be dealt with so much faster within the show. Sam was tasked by Bran to tell Jon about who he is and what he is: Aegon Targaryen, Sixth of His Name, and the rightful ruler of the Seven Kingdoms.

Bran tasked Sam with telling Jon right after Daenerys broke the news to Sam that she burned the f–k out of Sam’s dad and brother. Considering how little I care about Sam and his family, I was irritated by the fact that Sam got so emotional about it – his father and brother were abusive monsters. Randyll Tarly basically sent Samwell to the Wall because Sam is overweight and likes books. Anyway, John Bradley spoke to Vanity Fair’s Still Watching podcast to explain some of the emotional notes of those scenes, and he had some sh-t to say about Daenerys.

Why he was so emotional about his father & brother’s deaths: Bradley based his performance off an article he had read awhile back about how if you have a relationship with one parent that is “strained and difficult” and with the other that is warm and loving, you’re likely to grieve more for the parent you didn’t get on with. “It sounds counterintuitive,” he acknowledges, but once that parent has died you’re left to carry so many things that are unresolved. “It’s never going to get any better,” he says. “The pain is never going to get any easier” without any happy memories to cling to…. Bradley says he sees Dickon as a victim of toxic masculinity. That all his bullying was just posturing to impress their domineering father. Both Bradley and Samwell are able to find reserves of compassion for someone like that.

He thinks the cold reaction from Daenerys Targaryen and Jorah Mormont was notable: “I’d be interested to know what Jorah’s view on Daenerys is now. In Season 2 he tells Daenerys she has a good heart and that’s why she’d be a good leader and you’re not really seeing that anymore. After all of her experiences and all she’s gone through and all that she’s withstood and the person she is now, she doesn’t seem to have that heart anymore. She seems much more—in that scene especially—she seems psychopathic almost and she seems to have regressed in terms of morality so much that I don’t know what he thinks of her anymore.”

[From Vanity Fair]

I wonder if John Bradley is doing some GoT-approved foreshadowing about Dany and how she’s going “mad” like her father. In my GoT-rewatch, the scene where Dany executes the Tarly men seemed… like, whatever. It was notable because Tyrion tried to talk her out of it, and it was notable because Westeros-Dany is obsessed with bitches taking the knee. But really, she killed so many people that day. Those people were on the makeshift battlefield, which I know is different from executing a de facto prisoner of war. But still, I felt like the whole “the execution of the Tarly men” plot is feeling particularly overwrought at the moment. It also feels like Daenerys told Samwell straight out because she didn’t want to meet this guy and immediately lie to him. She wasn’t completely cold – she was direct and honest with him and she did her own dirty work. It’s like John Bradley is tone-policing the Dragon Queen. Next Samwell will be like “BUT HER DRAGON EMAILS.”

All that being said, it’s perfectly possible that Game of Thrones is setting Dany up to be a much more complicated person in the final act, whether you call that a flawed hero or just another villain, I don’t know. I’m worried about how she’ll react to the news about Jon/Aegon.

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195 Responses to “John Bradley (Samwell Tarly): Daenerys was ‘psychopathic’ in the ‘Winterfell’ episode”

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  1. Loretta says:

    I think Dany is a very complex woman, since she was a child she had to live and overcome very difficult things that surely have left a mark on her. I see her as a flawed hero, a strong, independent and courageous woman.
    I think all the GOT characters have flaws, lights and shadows and that’s what I like about the show because it reflects the real life.

    • Char says:

      The women in GoT are way more complex than man. Daenarys went through a lot and she knows that being a Queen comes with good and evil. Now, we barely knew anything about the Tarlys aside they were bullies who supported Cersei and If they had the chance, they would’ve killled Dany and the dragons. It was a battle, move on, Sam.

      • Becks1 says:

        I mean, he’s still allowed to mourn his father and brother, even if they were terrible to him, and even if it was a battle. I don’t understand the comments about how Sam shouldn’t even be sad. If he’s wallowing in grief for the rest of the series I’ll be annoyed, but I’ll give him a few hours to mourn.

      • sunny says:

        It was still his family and even though his father was terrible to him, he might have loved him.
        Sam gets to be devastated by this loss – of course he will be resentful to the person who executed his dad and brother. I think it would have been different if they had died in the battle, but Dany executed them. She took this action against the advice of her advisors that understand Westeros.

        I think the last season has been building up to Dany taking a darker turn. She is a foreigner who understands little about the people she is attempting to govern. She has also grown more arrogant as the series progresses. I think many of these issues can be mitigated if she listens to the council around her and makes a sincere effort to understand the people she wants to rule but I am not sure she will.

        We are in for a wild ride.

      • Pamela says:

        Didn’t Sam told Olly to move on too? Hypocrite much? Look that’s the complexity, that doesn’t make Dany a villain. And she told Sam, she didn’t have to tell him, but she did, bc he saved Jorah. That’s the price of war, it’s not pretty. At this point, I don’t know what people want from Daenerys, bring your dragons, save their lives & then go back to Essos & die there you foreign invader. The way they treat Daenerys, is a reflection of how women in power are treated in general

      • HelloSunshine says:

        I don’t get why people think he doesn’t get to be sad about his family being killed lol I have two not so great (to put it nicely) parents and I’d still be sad if they died. I think there’s always apart of you that hopes they’ll turn it around or realize you’re not the bad guy or finally be proud of you or something and that’s what I imagine Sam is thinking about after hearing they died.

        ETA: he might be less sad about it by the next episode (they were crappy people lol) but we’re also seeing the raw shock and hurt of Sam initially hearing they’re dead and the person telling him is the one who killed them. Gotta give the dude some credit here, he’s allowed to be shocked.

      • Mel says:

        I feel that Sam should definitely be able to mourn. Yes, his father was horrible to him but deep down I think Sam always wanted to gain his respect, and being the good person he is he would still feel the loss regardless, Plus, the death of both his father and brother put his beloved mother and sister in peril and he would definitely be worried about that.

      • Ainsley7 says:

        @Pamela Olly was told to get over hating an entire group for the actions of a handful of them. It’s not really the same thing. Sam doesn’t agree with her decision during war. Jon didn’t seem to like it either. Especially since he advised her not to burn people and she agreed right before she left. She didn’t have to burn them. She made a choice to rule through fear and showed she is “more of the same” as Jon warned her.

      • M.A.F. says:

        She didn’t have to execute them though. She could have made both of them P.O.W. In her mind, she had to make an example out of them but once again, she is trying to rule a country that yes, she was born in but knows absolutely nothing about.

      • Lightpurple says:

        Greedy bullies who betrayed Olenna to support Cersei because she promised them the Reach In Highgarden.

      • Pamela says:

        @Ainsley7 Lol, Olly literally told Sam that Tormund lead the raids on his village, the wildlings kill for survival, the Tarlys went on wildlings hunts for sports, but yet Daenerys gave them a choice & yet you call her more “of the same”. People really don’t like grey characters, Daenerys could be Aragorn or Arwen, all perfect & without any flaw to set her up as a normal hero, but George RR Martin made her complex & showed the true costs of war w her, and somehow for people that makes her a villain

      • Agirlandherdog says:

        Sonny, you used the word “govern.” But she’s not trying to govern. She wants to RULE. There’s a world of difference in those two words, and her attitude reflects that.

        Why is everyone suddenly portraying Dickon as a bully? I do not recall one scene where he bullies Sam. He is, in fact, portrayed as a young man just desperate to win and maintain his father’s approval. Seeing how his father treated Sam, I’d think he would be afraid to stand up to his dad in any way. I can imagine after his father’s disappointment in Sam, Randal was even harder on Dickon, to ensure he got an heir he could be “proud” of. Even if Dickon wasn’t physically abused, I don’t doubt he was just as emotionally abused as Sam, just in a different way.

        And why are people calling it tone policing to criticize Dany’s delivery, yet in the next sentence criticizing Sam’s reaction to it? It’s tone policing to criticize Dany because she’s a woman, but it’s okay to judge Sam’s emotional reactions? Hello double standard.

      • Eve says:

        @AGirlAndHerDog:

        “Why is everyone suddenly portraying Dickon as a bully? I do not recall one scene where he bullies Sam.”

        I don’t know if you’ve noticed but they changed the actor who played Dickon Tarly (Freddie Stroma) in the sixth season for a completely different one in the seventh season (Tom Hopper). They didn’t even look alike!!!

        They also changed the character’s attitude and overall manners.

        6th season Dickon seemed to be a major…wait for it…d!ck. Randyll Tarly was humiliating Sam and Gilly right and left at the table in Mole Hill. Dickon did nothing but brag about the deer he had killed the day before. Sam’s mother and sister left, taking Gilly with them.

        7th season Dickon was this honorable soldier who refused to leave his father’s side.

        Just in case you’re interested:

        https://www.elitedaily.com/entertainment/game-of-thrones-dickon-tarly/2017364

        P.S.: I know, I know, I promised to leave this thread but I felt compelled to answer @Agirlandherdog.

    • Loretta says:

      @Pamela
      “At this point, I don’t know what people want from Daenerys, bring your dragons, save their lives & then go back to Essos & die there you foreign invader. The way they treat Daenerys, is a reflection of how women in power are treated in general”

      I totally agree.

    • Deedee says:

      Dany didn’t do anything that Ned and Jon snow didn’t do themselves.

      • RedWeatherTiger says:

        Yeah! Mr. Morality Ned Stark killed a guy for running away from the wall because he feared for his life. Give me a break with the “she didn’t have to kill them” line. She gave them a choice, and they chose. She followed through, a woman of her word.

        Dany’s hair is getting more intricate as her character does. It fascinates me.

      • sunny says:

        Um that’s a little glib. They executed people who violated oaths sworn under penalty of death. But samies I guess in the broadest sense of the terms.

  2. snowqueenM says:

    I don’t know if it’s time policing, per se, but I feel a big thematic element of the books and show is that the Iron Throne destroys any goodness in everyone who tries to claim it. I think we’re seeing that progression with D. In the books, it’s a little clearer that she’s becoming mentally unwell, but maybe they’ll tackle that this season?

    • Megan says:

      The books left me wondering if Dany will be the villain in the end. The show seems to be heading in that direction. If the T’s all go mad won’t Jon go mad as well?

      • Lala11_7 says:

        Considering Jon isn’t a product of first line incest…probably not….

      • sunny says:

        I think maybe its not so much about genetics but about the type of people who seek power and what happens when they get it. Jon’s greatest asset is that although he has received power at various points, he has never ever wanted it. That makes him very different than the other players of the game. On another note, I wish he was a better strategist- dude is a terrible planner.

      • snowqueenM says:

        Jon is half T and mental health issues can be passed down through generations regardless of the incest thing, so potentially. I don’t know if they’ll go that route for narrative reasons, though.

        If GoT/ASOIAF is D’s villain origin story, that’d be an interesting twist, I think. I’m still rooting for a Sansa throne / Arya hand ending, but we’ll see, haha!

    • Himmiefan says:

      Snowqueen, good point! The closer to taking the throne, the worse people get. Martin could be making a statement about the love of power.

    • Mel says:

      It does seem to be heading in the way of Dany becoming the villain. She’s not my favorite on the show but I still think that would be a sad outcome if it comes to pass. I do agree she’s not a ruler, she’s a conqueror. She should support Jon’s claim to rule and stand alongside him … but separately please! Not romantically together; she should send for Daario Naharis or join him once it’s all said and done. Offcourse this being GOT that’s probably not what’s gonna happen but a girl can dream.

    • StellainNH says:

      Dany seemed rather naughty during the march toward Winterfell. I’m wondering if the madness will set in and she faces some sort of downfall.

      The past couple of seasons, I really haven’t enjoyed that character. Maybe she dies?

  3. Jenns says:

    I always enjoy interviews with John Bradley. He puts a lot of thought into Sam.

    As for Dany, she wants to be Queen. That is her only goal. But I think she has no interest in leading. She also relies on her dragons to be her strength. You could see she was nervous coming into Winterfell, but when he dragons showed up, she turned smug.

    And I think all of this is intentional. Because I think all of the dragons will die and Dany will be forced into a role that’s she not prepared for. And that’s when we will see the kind of leader she really is.

    • Becks1 says:

      This is a good point. She has gotten very good at conquering, with the dragons. Let’s see how she leads without them.

    • Mel says:

      John Bradley is fantastic. I was never really the biggest Sam fan but after watching his interview on the history of his character I walked away with him becoming one of my favorite actors on the show. He really does have an amazing insight into not only his character but every character in the show and he speaks so eloquently about them all. Also his reaction to Danny telling him about his father and brother was a great piece of acting. But please let’s not talk about all the dragons dying. I don’t think I can handle that. I am so ready for anyone/everyone to die except the dragons and the direwolves, my animal loving heart won’t take it.

    • Iknow says:

      So true! Absolutely true. I noticed the change in Dany when she finally saw the dragons. For a split second, she was the frightened girl we me the first episode. Then the dragons came and that smug, drunk with power look came back.

      Also, I agree the Dany doesn’t know how to lead. She knows how to use brute force. she isn’t diplomatic at all. Her only sense of being a leader is to either pledge fealty or die. She ruled Mireen and look what happened? She is no different than Cersei in some regards.

    • HelloSunshine says:

      That’s one of the reasons I’ve come to dislike Dany within the last few seasons. She’s almost completely reliant on her dragons for power. She isn’t interested (so far) in establishing a respectful, mutual relationship with the Northerners. She walked in expecting them to automatically love her and she was totally smug when the dragons showed up/people got freaked out by them. I’m hoping her character turns back into the upcoming leader I loved before, but she’s acting so entitled and I think finding out Jon is actual heir to the throne is going to push her over the line of crazy.

      • Loretta says:

        @HelloSunshine

        “She isn’t interested (so far) in establishing a respectful, mutual relationship with the Northerners”

        I could say the same for the Northerners. It’s not only Dany’s fault

      • Jenns says:

        Yes, the Northeners are stubborn and tough. But every area in the Seven Kingdoms is going to have it’s own personality trait. She can’t expect to roll into places and have everyone fall all over her and declare her the Queen. She’s not freeing slaves this time. Forming a relationship with people will take effort on her part.

        It’s interesting to me that she remained silent while sitting in front of the council at Winterfell. That would’ve been the perfect time to address “her” people, especially in a time of war. But she quiet and demonstrated zero leadership. She only spoke up, of course, when it came to her dragons.

        But again, I do think this could be all part of her character development. Yes, she’s smug now, but she’s in for a rude awakening. And that’s when we’ll find out who Dany really is.

      • Lauren says:

        Everything the Northerners have suffered for the last 25 years or so has been the direct result of actions taken by Daenerys’ family. Of course they aren’t going to trust her. That’s why she needs to be more open and understanding.

      • Agirlandherdog says:

        Loretta, the Northerners aren’t trying to conquer her home. She is the conqueror. In that scenario, I don’t blame the Northerners for being suspicious of this stranger who knows nothing about their world coming in and demanding they bend the knee to her.

  4. Oh No says:

    Theory Alert, I think Varys is going to be the one to betray Dany for Love…the third and final betrayal.

    He said he loves the realm more than anything, he may start to see her as a threat and think John…or even Sansa would be better

    Also, Sam needs to get out of his feelings. His family betrayed Ollena, that’s worthy of Drogon fire

    • Himmiefan says:

      Good points. Varys is one of my favorite characters, but he’s not going to survive. I like the theory that he’ll save the kingdom from Dany. I still think Tyrion will win the throne in the end.

      • Oh No says:

        They are two of the best characters.

        I hated Littlefinger, but those 3 together would have been phenomenal

      • sunny says:

        I think Tyrion is smart but also has yet to prove he can learn from his own mistakes. I mean, going after Casterly rock was a huge tactical error he made due to his own childhood issues and Cersei was smart enough to manipulate him again by promising the Lannister army. All of the characters are going to need to get smarter to survive.

        What is absolutely hilarious to me is that most of the characters’ biggest flaws are their respective childhood issues. Totally living Larkin’s poem This Be the verse, “They f*&% you up your mom and dad/They may not mean to but they do”

    • M.A.F. says:

      Didn’t he make that clear to Dany when he first met her? She pointed out what he has done (sending the spies) and he made it clear that everything he has done is for the good of the realm? I can see him setting things in motion, don’t know if he will be the one to carry it out though.

      • Oh No says:

        That’s my thinking too.

        The whole series is a chain reaction of the actions of “secondary” characters. I hope whatever he sets into play just shatters us

  5. Digital Unicorn says:

    Jorah won’t care he is where he has wanted to be from the beginning, by her side if not in her bed – he still has his d!ick in his hand about her. And yeah, she’s going to go the same way her father did, the power hunger has intensified since she arrived in Westeros. She’s failed to grasp what the people of Westeros has been through recently and see her as just another conqueror who wants to subjugate them. She is nothing without those dragons, she’s already lost one, another will leave her for Jon and I think Drogon will end up dead or turning into an ice dragon like his brother.

    I like Sam, he is one of the only ‘true’ people in the show and I think his conversation with Jon will have severe ramifications as at some point Jon is going to pull away from Dany and she won’t take that well, esp when she finds out why. She will turn on him and demand that he gives up his birthright as the true Targ heir to support her – Jon’s Stark heritage means that the people of Westero’s will back him over her.

    • Megan says:

      Jon’s inability to lie makes it impossible for him not to tell her. It should be interesting.

    • Becks1 says:

      I think Jon’s parentage is going to be the turning point, may push her into madness. I mean obviously its significant, it doesn’t take a genius to know that, haha, but given how short this season is, and how much they have to wrap up, I think every conversation is significant. And Sam asking Jon if Dany would give up her crown to save her people – that has to be significant.

      • Digital Unicorn says:

        Yeah and the look on his face when Sam said that told me that he knows deep down that Dany won’t give her up her crown for her people or even her dragons.

        When Jon’s parentage becomes public knowledge, the Northerners and people of Westeros will flock to him not her and I think that will push her over the edge into madness. It will start a fight between them forcing Jon to kill her. And I agree with others here that Tyrion and Varys will also turn on her, she’s been becoming more and more of a Targ like her father in the past few seasons.

        Plus I don’t think there will be an incest baby and prolly for the best. There is going to be quite an ending and one that no one can see coming.

    • Erinn says:

      I love Sam. I can only watch here and there, and rely on recaps because I can’t handle a of lot of the scenes. But Sam is GOOD. He’s a good character, and a good person. I really want to see him make it out alive.

      I really like the theory that it’s Sam telling the story of GoT – and would be pleased if that was the case.

    • Pamela says:

      She may also think he KNEW all this time who his parents were…and that he duped her.

  6. Snappyfish says:

    I too, am worried about her reaction to the news of her lover/half nephew rightful heir to the throne. I thought her telling Sam was forthcoming. She let him know she gave them a choice & those chose to be loyal to crazy effing Cersei. Let’s not forget Sam is the rightful heir to the Tarly Lordship & as Kaiser states he was demoted and sent to the wall because he wasn’t as chiseled as his younger brother. I think the psychopathic comment was ridiculous & not supported by what the viewers see. Even when Jon told Cersei that he had ‘bent the knee’ to Daenerys it was Daenerys who told him that she appreciated his loyalty but wished he hadn’t said anything. Whatever happens I do want Cersei to die horribly. By Arya’s hand wearing Jamie’s face.

    I think Dany will be pregnant & die in childbirth thus Jon & their child will sit on the iron throne insuring the Stark/Targaryen “win” in Westeros. My dragons better not die!!!

    • Agirlandherdog says:

      Technically, Sam isn’t the Tarly heir. When you join the Night’s Watch, you give up your family name. His sister is the heir. Like Lyanna Mormont is the Lady of Bear Island.

    • geekychick says:

      I don’t agree. The thing is, she’s not acting rational in that situation.
      Think about this: you’re in new teritory. People don’t like you here, they don’t trust you. You meet someone you know is pretty high up the ladder. You don’t know what kind of relationship he had with his family-and you proceed to tell him you killed them.
      she could have said they died in the battle, could have said just that they perished, she didn’t have to state that she did it.
      I think it was show of power: I’m smiling and playing it lightly, but I AM the queen.
      It’s totally immature and not logical. it’s like she didn’t ever hear of diplomacy.

    • Pamela says:

      “Whatever happens I do want Cersei to die horribly. By Arya’s hand wearing Jamie’s face.”

      I have seen this come up. Lots of people want this. And I agree that it would be so satisfying. But now that Cersei wants Jamie dead? Might be harder for things to go this way…not impossible of course. But previously I envisioned some great twist where Jamie and Cersei are alone, her guard is 100% down, and Arya in her Jamie mask just takes complete advantage of that. It STILL could happen, but I am not as hopeful now that Cersei might not be as likely to let her guard down.

  7. Becks1 says:

    I definitely think she was very cold in that scene. It was good that she was direct and upfront with Sam, but she definitely was cold. I do think they are setting her up to be like the Mad King. Even the preview for next week, where she is questioning Jamie Lannister – it almost is starting to sound like she doesn’t believe her father should have been killed (grandfather? Mad King was her father, right?) Of course we’ll have to wait and see what happens next.

    Dany being “cold” and almost going too far in terms of demanding loyalty has been a theme for a while now, so its not something we just saw in that scene. I think its clear that both Varys and Tyrion have concerns about some of her choices. And Davos telling them that the North is very loyal to Jon and the Starks, and it will take a while for her to win the loyalty of the people in the North – I feel like they are setting it up for something to happen where she goes crazy bc the Northeners don’t bend the knee or whatever. I don’t know. But there is definitely something being set up.

    • Sof says:

      “Every time a Targaryen is born, the gods toss a coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land.”

      I haven’t watched all the series but read the books. In them it’s said that all she knows about her family was told by Viserys, who lied/exaggerated a lot. When Barristan tried to correct a few facts about her father she didn’t want to hear him. It will be amazing if both Bran and Jaime tell her about his intentions of burning King’s landing.

      • Lory says:

        Was the mad king actually planning to burning King’s Landing in his time though? I started doubting that because somewhere in season 1 Jaime tells Robert the mad king was chanting “Burn them all” for hours. It reminded me of what happened with Hodor. Maybe Bran wargs into the mad king to put in place wildfire in order to burn the dead a few decades later and that’s what drove the king completely mad in the end. When the night king reaches King’s Landing that will be the last stand and they burn them and it all to the ground. It would also account for the vision Dany had a few seasons ago where she’s walking around the throne room and it’s mostly destroyed and I think it was snowing.

    • sunny says:

      I am on the fence about her fate. She was a royal in exile, made a queen through marriage, gained another people through conquering and then gained their loyalty through liberation. What I think people are missing is that for Westeros, it is not enough that she shows up with her dragons and armies to save them…she needs to earn their respect to rule them. That comes from understanding them as people. It is not enough to have force, most times you need the understanding to govern. That is why she messed up with the Unsullied at first by trying to change major things in their culture all at once.

      I think a lot will depend on what she learned from that experience.

  8. ds says:

    I think she was actually as nice as one can be given the situation. Really straight forward and honest. Like; oh shit, that was your dad. I am a queen so y’know – political victims. Cersei would gloate and blackmale, Danny was just – it’s war man. I did what I thought I had to do, trying to prove my power. Which, of course, people can disagree with. I don’t think that’s crazy. Hard core? True. Crazy? No. Melissandre burning the little girl – that was crazy.

    • snappyfish says:

      Agreed!!

    • Deedee says:

      Agreed. She did what Ned did in the very first episode when he killed the man watcher who ran from the wall to warn them of the white walkers (which he didn’t deserve) and what Jon snow did when he beheaded that dude who refused to go to his post and the four he later hung for murdering him (can’t blame him for that one). But everyone thinks Dany is cold because she’s a woman. That’s why I love Cersei and Brienne of Tarth. I really couldn’t care less about the stark girls.

    • Lilly (with the double-L) says:

      Yes ds. Unfortunately, I’ve had to give bad news to people more than a few times, I just do it straight out, calmly and leave my feelings out of it to allow the person their feelings. Later I may cry, on my own, but it’s best just to say.

      Like you said in GoT tt is wartime. And so true, Melisandre was crazy and then tried to justify – i prefer straightforward.

  9. Dhavynia says:

    I didn’t understand why he was so emotional about his father’s death since he was always being put down and his brother was perfect in his father’s eyes. I get the emotion over his brother since he seemed to show some sympathy towards Sam. He needs Bran to tell him to snap out if it lol.

    • Jennifer says:

      Sam has always been emotional so I’m not surprised by his reaction to the news his father and brother were burned to the ground. I imagine the reaction to news of an estranged parent’s death is different for everyone. I think Dany is going to go mad, whether she can be reigned back in I’m not sure, maybe the show will let her advisors talk her back to her original vision of her rule. I believe it was foreshadowing when she told Varys last season she will kill him by dragon fire if he betrays her. Why would he betray her? In his eyes, for the good of the realm, so I’m inclined to think Dany will get out of control. I hope in the next episode we see how she reacts to the news of Jon’s birthright.

  10. Neners says:

    Just a note here: John Bradley clarified on Twitter that he was giving his opinion of how Sam sees Dany, not his own view on the story as the actor.

  11. line says:

    The Targaryen remind me of the Tudors, the Tudors was reputed to be mentaly instable . Elizabeth 1 during the reign of Mary Tudors, was considered as hope because she more stable than her half-sister and her father. But at the end of her reign, she had become very odd and the courtiers have think that she plunge into madness. Maybe that’s what the same will happen to Dany.for me, seeing all that she has lived perhaps of herself, she will destroy the iron throne.

  12. Mabs A'Mabbin says:

    Join me or be burned alive is troublesome, and that happened last season. With only five episodes left, things will have to move quickly, and nothing that happens or said on this show is superfluous…foreshadowing is prevalent throughout. She gave people choices across the sea, and those days are gone. I think she’s going down.

    • broodytrudy says:

      Join me or be burned alive has been dany since about season 2 though. This isn’t a development. People like her because she’s a queen who has been taking countries as her own. But that’s the whole problem, she’s a conqueror, and has no interest in leading. That’s why she defers her decisions. that’s why she’s left multiple cities she’s taken over to the leadership of unsavory men. She just wants to exert her power.

  13. jaylee says:

    I think Dany is going to bounce once she hears that Jon has a legit claim to the throne. Leaving the Northerners to be slaughtered at Winterfell. The Greyjoy ships will save a few of them but it will be ON between Jon & Dany after she abandons the North. Only prob is she’s pregnant.
    What happens when your gf takes her dragons & leaves? My theory is that Bran will warg into Rheagar & come back for Jon if he gets left to die in Winterfell. Jon keeps him & Dany is down one more dragon.

    • sid says:

      I don’t think Daenerys is the type to do that all. She can be messy and has at times let her pursuit of the throne overtake everything else, but at her core she wants to help people. She could have easily sent Jon back to the North with just the dragon glass and wished him luck, but she put aside going after Cersei and KL to go North with her army and dragons to help. While the Aegon reveal will likely be a sucker-punch, I don’t see her abandoning an entire region over it. I also suspect her reaction will be a lot more complex than just being upset that someone else has a (possibly) better claim to throne, especially when she realizes she has a legit family member and isn’t completely alone in the world.

    • RoyalBlue says:

      Jaylee I would normally agree with you except I feel she has skin in the game as the night king killed Viscerion. Momma dragon won’t play nice.

  14. Lucy says:

    I thought both him and Emilia were great in that scene. Too bad shit’s about to get real now.

  15. Sherry says:

    I think he’s setting us up for how she will react when she finds out Jon is king. It won’t be pretty.

  16. Nikki says:

    Hey, y’all have convinced me that Duchess Kate isn’t the greatest, but no messing with Sam Tarly!! He has such a good, sweet, kind heart, and even when scared of something, he’s courageous and tries to do the right thing. The way he took care of the young woman with the baby (sorry, no memory for names) was very brave. And YES, he’s allowed to feel upset his father and brother were burned to a crisp; I know many people with love/hate relationships with a difficult parent, and his brother didn’t seem so bad.

  17. Pamela says:

    Lol, SHOW ALL OF HIS ANSWER. The writer of this article (Joanna Robinson) tried to put this as a validation of Dany as a villain & John Bradley answered through twitter this “I was referring to how Sam sees her at that point. Not my personal opinion”. As he said, it’s at THAT point. Daenerys is not a villain, in the BTS of that episode from GOT, plus until the new episodes D&D have explained that Daenerys is ruthless not mad. I don’t understand how people are so bias against her. I haven’t seen people calling Tyrion mad for using wildfire to kill Davos’ son & now they’re cool. Jon wasn’t called mad when he killed Janos. Sansa wasn’t mad when she killed Ramsay with his own dogs. All the characters in GOT are grey, so treating Daenerys as a villain just bc she didn’t kept prisoners of war, after they refused to bend the knee or even go to the wall is not the same as Aerys. Now everybodys is crying for the Tarlys (after they betrayed their liege) & for the Lannisters. People don’t want complicated women on screen, they have to be pure villains like Cersei or perfect pure women who don’t want to lead (a female Jon Snow) in order to cheer for them to the iron throne. Well Daenerys is not that, she has ambition, she wants the iron throne & she’s going to be ruthless in war to get it. That doesn’t make her mad. Olenna wasn’t mad when she killed Joffrey, she was strategic. Daenerys is the same

    • snappyfish says:

      Wonderful response!!

    • Loretta says:

      Totally this!

    • Eve says:

      Love that.

    • Valiantly Varnished says:

      EXACTLY!

    • Arnk says:

      She could have stripped the Tarlys of their lands and titles and left them with nothing, burning people alive is a very cruel punishment for not wanting to bend the knee to a foreign invader with a foreign army and weapons of mass destruction. Also Ramsey cannot be compared to any of the Tarlys? He was a psychopath who tortured several characters in very, very cruel ways. Joffrey was also unhinged and a threat.

      If you think Cersei is just a pure villain you haven’t been paying attention to the show. She was quite clearly always very capable, but her father never gave her the same opportunities as her brothers, she’s been haunted by a terrible prophecy since she was a child, abused and beaten by her husband, publicly humiliated and shamed, lost all of her children and the only man she ever loved. Yes, she’s a terrible and cruel person but she doesn’t hide behind a greater purpose or whatever. She is a very complicated character and if you can’t muster a bit of sympathy for her then I don’t know what to say…

      The problem with Daenerys is that, sure, she has ambition and she’s really great at using her dragons to conquer, but she cannot rule. And she is too entitled and smug to even see that. Like what happened in Meereen. She freed the slaves but never gave the city a new structure so they had to sell themselves back to their old masters. She also pulls up in Winterfell with a huge army and 2 dragons and gets pissy when asked legitimate questions, like, what are they all supposed to eat? Especially since she burnt wagons of food last season.

      She is a complicated character but she has a lot of potential to go into villain territory. For several seasons now she’s shown how blinded by power she gets, her impulsivity and total lack of diplomacy. And she shows very little understanding of the cultural and political climate in Westeros.

      • Eve says:

        @Arnk:

        She GAVE Randyll Tarly another choice — to join the Night’s Watch (which strip him from his titles and land). He refused.

      • Yennefer of Vengerberg says:

        @Eve, that’s not a choice, that’s an ultimatum. A binary choice where one choice is ‘die a cruel and unusual death’ is not a choice.

      • sid says:

        Arnk, I don’t have much sympathy for Cersei. 99% of the hardships you listed that she has gone through are things that were the eventual result of her own actions. This is someone who as a little girl had her friend killed because said friend was there when she heard the prophecy. As a child she grabbed her infant brother’s genitals and nearly tore them off until another child stopped her. I don’t need to bother listing what she has done as an adult. The only saving grace for the character onscreen is that Lena Headey is a terrific actress with enough talent for nuance and subtlety to bring the character to life in a compelling way.

      • Eve says:

        @Yennefer of Vengerberg:

        She gave them three choices: bend the knee, join the Night’s Watch or die.

        Also, what’s wrong with an ultimatum? She won the battle, she can give that.

      • Mrs.Krabapple says:

        “If you think Cersei is just a pure villain you haven’t been paying attention to the show” — I’ve seen every episode (but haven’t read any of the books). I have no sympathy for Cersie because she has no sympathy for anyone. Even the very few times characters have tried to make excuses for her (“she loves her children”) she proves them wrong. She cared more about destroying her rivals (sparrows, Tyrells) than her son Tommen, which led to his suicide. When she confronts Elaria about killing Myrcella, it’s all about CERSEI, not Myrcella (“why did you take her from ME?” — in her mind, SHE is the victim, not her daughter). Telling the story about how she was too jealous to let a wet nurse care for her son — it was all about her children being her possessions. Her children’s only value was how they served her own ego. That’s not love. And, Cersie is the biggest misogynist in all of Westeros – there is nothing she hates more than other women. I think people who feel Cersie has any redeeming qualities are the ones who haven’t been paying attention. She IS a great villain though, and Lena Headley is fantastic.

    • Jenns says:

      There were quite a few heated debates about Sansa using the dogs to kill Ramsey. Some loved it, but others said that she could never be a Queen or ruler using those kind of brutal tactics. As for Olenna, GRRM has himself made the point that while Joffrey was awful, he was also 13(in the books). And he asked if Olenna killed a mad king, or did she murder a child. As for Jon, his often dumb choices have been called out quite a bit. So it’s not just limited to Daenerys.

      Personally, I don’t think as Dany as a mad queen. But, like all other characters, she make questionable decisions. Given her family history, using fire to kill someone who wouldn’t bend the knee to her was not smart. She speaks about freedom, but kills those who don’t submit to her? That’s not going to work out. For someone who speaks about breaking the wheel, I have yet to see anything that sets her apart from any other ruler. But, I still think that moment could come. I just think she’ll need to be stripped of her dragons first.

      • Becks1 says:

        That’s a good point about Olenna – did she kill a king or a child? I also think when discussing her that its worth pointing out that she did not kill Joffrey for the good of the realm. She killed him bc she didn’t want Margarey married to him, and she thought Tomlin would be easier to control.

      • Bex says:

        What people also forget about Olenna is that she set up innocent child Sansa to be framed for it. Sure, her co-conspirator Littlefinger had a plan to get Sansa out the city, but had it failed? She would’ve been dead as a doorknob. Olenna was fine with Tyrion going down for it too. And last season, people cheered her ‘be a dragon’ line because it was cool, but she was advocating melting down King’s Landing, population 1 million, because she wanted revenge on Cersei, not because she believed in the righteousness of Dany’s cause.

        The only murder (not mercy killing) committed for altruistic purposes in the whole series is Jaime’s of the Mad King, which looks to be coming out next week.

        The show is nowhere near as nuanced as the books, but a lot of people do still miss the greyness that is on screen.

      • Mrs.Krabapple says:

        For Olenna, she had ambitions for her granddaughter, of course. And that was her motivation. But the end result (even with selfish motivation) would still have been good for the realm. Tommen being controlled by Margery would be MUCH better for the average person than Joffrey as king. And attacking King’s Landing (or at least its army) would be much better than their alternative plan of starving the people into surrendering. Does anyone really think Cersie and her soldiers would starve first? It would kill everyone peasant before it had any effect on the army.

        As for Dany, I think she’s tasting power and playing the usual game of thrones, and has been sidetracked from her initial desire to break the wheel. But she hasn’t done anything irredeemable yet. Burning the Tarleys (who became traitors against the Tyrells because of racism) after they lost the battle, refused to bend the knee, and refused to go to the Wall, is NOT unreasonable. We like Sam and dislike Dany simply for hurting Sam, but the Tarleys themselves were treated the way losers are treated in war.

    • Deedee says:

      Agreed. She hasn’t done anything that any sane man hasn’t done.

  18. bus says:

    Yea, I disagree with her being cold or turning into a mad queen. She did what she felt she had to whereas her father did what he wanted. There’s three competing forces inside her head: revenge for what happened to her family, learning how to be a queen in Westeros – a place that rebelled against her family sending her running for her life and that of a woman which others would tell me is not a simple thing to be in a world mostly dominated by men. She told Sam the way a ruler should explain themselves: This is what I did and this is why I did it. It was matter of fact, not cold: there is a difference. It was a responsibility and she took it up, honestly, regardless of the outcome which everyone knew would be complicated. What that means for Westeros at large is a little different because Bran manipulated Samwell by using that exact moment to send him to tell the truth to Jon. He used the power of those emotions to deliver a message to Jon using Samwell. In the end, I don’t think Jon being the heir matters all that much as far as who occupies the throne. Yes, he’s the heir to a throne his grandfather was thrown off of. He’s the heir to a throne his grandfather used the power of to burn his other grandfather alive. He’s the heir to a throne much reviled by the north. If anything, I think it makes Jon’s position in the north weaker (he’s a southerner!) which when combined with the resentment the north is building against him for abandoning the honor of being their king, it serves as a way to get Jon out of the north, to sever those ties just like his responsibilities to the Nights Watch were severed. I think Jon’s going to be relying on a large amount of goodwill from his sisters to keep the north in line and that will probably send him further into the arms of Daenerys. As far as who rules Westeros? It’s more a question of what of Westeros is left? Every military aged male in the seven kingdoms has either been killed at this point or is a part of one of two armies, both of which are probably made up of 50% or more of foreigners. What power does the iron throne even have at this point beyond symbolism? It’s a battle of raw power versus gold and noone outside of the little northern circle is going to care that Jon’s father is Rheagar. Not the southern lords who may resent Cersei but are mostly dead by this time and not the Iron Bank (is that right?) which is bankrolling the war. It’s gone way too far for that to matter to anyone else besides the people that are already committed to fighting the night king. In all honesty, the best outcome is everyone giving up on the Iron Throne and isolating it from the rest of the kingdoms. Fighting the night king is not guaranteed to be successful. They’re going to lose a LOT of men and probably another dragon or two. They won’t have the ability or the will to turn south. Let Cersei rot on the throne she lost her children for. It’s a tomb.

  19. Valiantly Varnished says:

    I actually find this to be a bit sexist. If Dany were a King would they have expected her to fawn over Sam and apologize for something that was essentially war? No. So why should Dany do that? Dany was forthright and honest. She didn’t lie to Sam but she also upheld her role as Queen. How would it have looked for her to hug Sam and be like, “there, there sorry I killed your father and brother who were opposing me in war”. It would look weak. At a time when she cannot look weak. You could tell in her eyes that she felt bad for Sam – not his family. His family were *ssholes.

    • Eve says:

      Agreed.

    • Deedee says:

      Absolutely.

    • geekychick says:

      Very good question, actually. GOT is a world swimming in patriarchy and we view it through sexist lenses, atop of our own society being pretty much still sexist today…but I honestly thought in terms “Her family’s madness always has to do with power, and she “rose” on completely different stances..she is off since season 7.” not even counting her gender as a factor. But very good point and yes, maybe majority of the people are viewing it through “merciful queen” eyes.

    • Mel says:

      I agree too. I think she was very straightforward in telling him, which honestly it is best he heard it straight from her than to hear it later down the line from someone else. I do not think she was unkind about it, she did look like she felt bad for him when he excused himself. Jorah did too.

  20. Eve says:

    I actually think that she was taken aback upon knowing who Sam was and a bit of sympathy when she told him his father and brother were killed.

    I still disagree with all the “she’s so smug” comments. She brought all her forces to help fight The Others and all they had for her were stink eyes and overall prejudice (her parentage, her origin, her dark skinned armies — yes, I went there).

    My world, I can’t believe I’m defending her but seriously, if I was treated the way Sansa (for instance) treated her, that nasty look on Sansa’s face when Daenerys tried to make small talk, I wouldn’t have stayed there for a minute more.

    *I* would gather my armies, my dragons, my horses and get the f*ck out of there, leaving those northern a**holes to deal with the White Walkers themselves.

    • Jenns says:

      So, as a leader, she should abandon her people and let them die because she got the stink eye?

      I mean, that’s pretty much sums up how Trump treats states that didn’t vote for him…

      • Eve says:

        @Jenns:

        They aren’t her people. They themselves made that very clear.

        And my last paragraph was about myself. *I* wouldn’t take sh*t from people *I* was helping to save.

        Also, bringing Trump into this discussion, really?

      • Jenns says:

        Yes, really. Because it’s a show about politics. And sometimes I compare our own political nightmare to the nightmare on the show.

        And throwing a tantrum, taking your toys and going home because someone doesn’t like you is really bad politics. Doesn’t matter what world you occupy.

      • Agirlandherdog says:

        Eve, according to her own words, they ARE her people. She has declared herself Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. Therefore, all those who live in the Seven Kingdoms are her people.

    • Yennefer of Vengerberg says:

      If you would gather your armies and dragons and horses and “get the f*ck out”, then you are no queen, and you have no right to demand that the people call you queen and bend the knee. A queen protects their realm from invaders even if your people are being unruly and indignant.

      No good queen is going to allow an invading force to march into HER LANDS and kill HER PEOPLE, noble and common alike.

      Besides, what is Daenerys going to do? Let the North fall out of spite, giving up what is the largest (iirc) of the Seven Kingdoms territory-wise, that has always been a buffer between the hostile deep north and the fertile south? She’ll have to fight in the South anyway, she WILL have to fight at some point, except now the NK’s army is even more bloated with all the dead Northmen walking with it.

      And funny you should mention her ‘dark skinned army’ and not point out that she herself is a lily white girl white saviour archetype, liberating and elevating all of them ‘brown savages’.

      If Daenerys thinks herself the queen of Seven Kingdoms, she needs to BE ONE, and defend it despite her pride, despite the Northerners questioning her. If she wins, then the Northerners will bend the knee without even her demanding it. You know, despite the fact that her father burned Sansa’s grandfather and uncle, Daenerys’ own brother, and the Targaryen crown prince seduced an underage Stark girl and started a war that left the realm reeling.

      And one last thing: Sansa raises a salient point with the supply issues. Winter wars have historically been disasters. Wars were generally not fought during winters if they could be helped, armies hunkered down, weathered the winter, and waited for spring to get back to busting heads again. An army marches on its stomach, and those Dothraki horses will be food real soon for the army and the dragons and the common folk alike. Daenerys’ army in the north as it is right now is a logistical freakin’ nightmare.

      And once Daenerys’ army starts dying of hunger, a very likely turn of events if D&D didn’t enjoy power fantasy fanfiction so much, well, the Others will be riiiiiiight there to scoop those corpses up.

      • Eve says:

        @Yennefer:

        If you would gather your armies and dragons and horses and “get the f*ck out”, then you are no queen,

        I was talking about myself, I’m pretty sure Daenerys is not going to do that.

        “and you have no right to demand that the people call you queen and bend the knee. A queen protects their realm from invaders even if your people are being unruly and indignant.”

        She hasn’t demanded anyone to bend the knee in Winterfell. Not yet.

        “And funny you should mention her ‘dark skinned army’ and not point out that she herself is a lily white girl white saviour archetype, liberating and elevating all of them ‘brown savages’.

        You should question GRRM about that. Or do you except to rewrite the books? Jesus!

        “You know, despite the fact that her father burned Sansa’s grandfather and uncle, Daenerys’ own brother, and the Targaryen crown prince seduced an underage Stark girl and started a war that left the realm reeling.

        You must have not watched the whole series or you would know Rhaegar never kidnapped Lyanna Stark nor raped her.

        Robert Baratheon started a rebellion based on a lie.

      • Eve says:

        @Yennfer:

        “And once Daenerys’ army starts dying of hunger, a very likely turn of events if D&D didn’t enjoy power fantasy fanfiction so much, well, the Others will be riiiiiiight there to scoop those corpses up.”

        I honestly don’t know what you mean with “D&D didn’t enjoy power fantasy fanfiction (…).

        I’ve never written fanfiction. I don’t read fanfiction.

        And you’re either new here or you’ve never paid attention to my previous comments because I’ve CLEARLY stated I’ve been rooting for the Night King and White Walkers all along.

        The Night King (so far) hasn’t shown double standards. I admire that.

        P.S.: Typo correction previous reply):

        “You should question GRRM about that. Or do you expect me to rewrite the books? Jesus!”

      • Bex says:

        ‘Robert’s Rebellion was built on a lie’ is a huge oversimplification of that war.

        Robert’s Rebellion didn’t start because Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. It started because Brandon and Rickard Stark were tortured to death by their king upon demanding justice, breaking the feudal contract, who then demanded Ned’s and Robert’s heads too. *That’s* when arms were taken up.

        Rhaegar may not have raped Lyanna but he was still a huge asshole. He was married! He was the heir and had a duty to the realm and instead he set aside his wife and two children, married Lyanna in Elia’s country of Dorne, and then left his discarded family hostages of his mad dad while he went to fight the war his utter stupidity prompted. The rebellion had just cause.

      • LindaM says:

        @Bex do you know why Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna? There is a whole prophesy story behind it. Also, Why did Brandon and Rickard Stark go to Kings Landing? Brandon went to challenge Rhaegar for the kidnapping of Lyanna. Brandon was arrested for publicly threatening a prince. So the whole thing started because of the “kidnapping”

      • Sof says:

        @Eve and @LindaM
        We, the audience, know Lyanna wasn’t kidnapped, but in the show how many people know? Bran, Sam, Jon…? Most people think Lyanna was kidnapped and raped till her death. Or something like that.

      • Mrs.Krabapple says:

        “Daenerys’ army in the north as it is right now is a logistical freakin’ nightmare.”

        Jon knows that battles against the White Walkers don’t last long. This is NOT human vs. human trying to starve each other out during a siege. Bran knows that too. Only Sansa doesn’t seem to want to focus on the White Walker fight, treating it as a side annoyance from her game of thrones, rather than a real, imminent, and overpowering threat. The battle will be short, and they have to give it everything they have, including the dothraki and dragons, because they have no other choice.

        “And once Daenerys’ army starts dying of hunger . . . the Others will be riiiiiiight there to scoop those corpses up.” — the battle won’t last long enough for people to die of hunger. Was there EVER a confrontation with the White Walkers that lasted long enough for anyone to starve? And, burning dead bodies is the way to prevent them from being turned. What can burn massive numbers of bodies in a very short time? Let me think . . . hmmm . . . could it be . . . DRAGONS? The dragons you (and Sansa) think are a bad idea?

        Sure, the writers can come up with all sorts of improbable events to make Sansa seem like a smart person (like the convenient way Euron managed to build 1,000 ships in a couple of weeks and defeat Yara’s navy). But Jon’s plan is not a bad idea. And I want end with: for all of Sansa’s constant criticizing of Jon, she has no viable plan herself. She’s good at complaining, not leading.

      • geekychick says:

        @ Mrs. Krabapple: You raise very good point, but if the Night King is a genius strategist, maybe he will choose a surprise tactic-to let them linger in siege. especially because the dragons are not eating well (presumably not coping with the cold?).
        OTOH, food supply and winter campaigns did break many, many armies and war campaigns that started out successfully-especially in earlier history-look at the Byzantium emperor Mauritius in 8th century (murdered because he ordered his armies to spend the winter on the field) or more famous and recent cases like Napoleon and Hitler with Russia.
        You are right, in saying that the only thing that maters right now is to survive and I agree that it seems Sansa is focusing at the wrong thing at the moment.
        BUT I do think that, if they survive, Dany will be a liability. she is increasingly and irationaly hungry for respect, instant adoration and power and too irrational for a good diplomat or ruler set to stabilize the country.

      • Valois says:

        Technically he didn’t start it based on a lie. A lie is an intentional misrepresentation of the truth and since Rhaegar couldn’t be bothered to make sure people knew that Lyanna went willingly (as willingly as a teenager could start an affair with the married crown prince) no one had any reason to believe the kidnapping wasn’t true.

        And even then it wouldn’t have escalated into war had Aerys not been the total nutjob he was at that point.

    • Lightpurple says:

      I’m pretty much in agreement with all your points, Eve.

      My observation on Dany complimenting Sansa’s looks and the reaction was that, like almost everything else about the Queen’s arrival at Winterfell, it was a throwback. Sansa herself tried a similar line on Lady Lyanna and got an even more disdainful reaction.

      • Eve says:

        @Lightpurple:

        Thank you, my dear. At some point I felt hostility here. There’s a poster I’m going to ignore because she/he is basically asking me questions she/he should be asking GRRM.

        I didn’t write the books nor the adaption for the series. Had I done that, things would be completely different.

      • Eve says:

        @Lightpurple:

        “Sansa herself tried a similar line on Lady Lyanna and got an even more disdainful reaction.”

        I totally forgot that. How come? I watched the sixth season about ten times!

      • Deedee says:

        Yes, this is very true. Sansa is growing wiser, no?

      • snappyfish says:

        In the books Sansa is horrible. The show has softened her greatly. Sansa still has an issue of who has what title. The white walkers, which Sansa has not seen, are all that matters & the 2 armies, 2 dragons & the queen in the north should seriously wake her up.

      • Eve says:

        @Deedee:

        I’d say she’s less dumb now. But she keeps undermining Jon in public. At one point, Jon had to ask her (privately) to stop quibbiling over titles because that was not the time.

        They do not have the time for that sh*t.

        An example? At the beggining of the episode she sent that poor Umber kid back to his house with all the horses and carriages/wagons he asked for and that they (at Winterfell) could spare.

        At the end of the episode we saw what happened to House Umber. How did that take? Hours, a few days? I’m going to repeat myself: The Night King f*cking means business.

  21. RoyalBlue says:

    Oh wow. See, I feel Samwell has played a significant role on the show and my gut says he will be an unlikely hero In the end. Similar to the supporting role of Samwise in Lord of the Rings, it was he who saved the day in the end.

    I think Dany is crazy like her father. In fact, if it runs in the family Jon better get himself checked out too.

    Edited to add that for sure Dany is psychotic! Sure she feels entitled to the iron throne – I really want to see how she’s reacts when told it’s not hers – What differentiates her from the others is her complete lack of empathy. Sansa killing Ramsey and Olena killing Joffrey all stem from revenge, pain or grief. Dany kills to get what she wants. While she was building her army she burned many just to wield her power. She was told many times you can’t just kill the elders to get what you want or the people will rebel but she doesn’t heed advice. Not all bad, she freed the unsullied and won their loyalty. The Dothraki follow her I guess because she asserted herself as the khaleesi.

    • Pamela says:

      Olenna didn’t kill Joffrey out of grief, she killed Joffrey out of planning getting Margaery in the iron throne w Tommen who was more easy to manipulate. Funny how people can excuse the “crazy” behaviour of their favs but when Daenerys does it, she’s a “mad queen”

      • RoyalBlue says:

        I did not say she killed out of grief. Goodness! She killed him because he was extremely cruel and sadistic too and would have been a terrible person to Margery. Even though Tommen was easier to manipulate she still had to contend with Cersei who proved the bigger problem. Pity it wasn’t Cersei she killed.

  22. Nan says:

    I just cannot be ok with men casually throwing around medical diagnosis on women who don’t fit into their world. Not even when talking about fictional characters. :(

  23. Eve says:

    Re: “smug face”.

    Daenerys Targaryen was the ONLY person who believed those dragon eggs would hatch. She risked her life for that.

    I saw nothing but the look of pride and joy on her face when she saw her sons flying.

    She’s risking their lives to save those ungrateful northerners. I, myself, wouldn’t.

    How are Meereen, Astapor and Yunkai doing after she freed the slaves — as far as I know, they’re fine after she killed two of the masters who refused to accept her terms and were full of sh*t when they’re calling her the “beggar queen” (and that her army would be sold to the highest bidder, as would Missandei; and her dragons slaughtered).

    Don’t you guys remember any of this?

    • DS9 says:

      Last I recall, those cities were in shambles and those left to govern have been dealing with various rebellions and uprisings ever since. I also cannot recall hearing what their new industries are now that their economies are no longer slave based.

      Daenerys rules there by proxy, an absentee landlord

      • Eve says:

        The rebellions had been financed by the lords of Astapor and Yunkai.

        Meereen was thriving after Tyrion made a pact with the three masters. They, however, broke the deal and tried to reclaim the slaves.

        Daenerys came, set the record straight and stayed there for some time. After that, she left with Tyrion, Missandei and Varys to Dragonstone.

      • M.A.F. says:

        “Daenerys came, set the record straight and stayed there for some time. After that, she left with Tyrion, Missandei and Varys to Dragonstone.”

        Yeah, and before that she took off on Drogon (granted, he took a nap & she was gone longer because then she was kidnapped by the Dothraki) and left it to the three of them to sort it out which in the end, didn’t end so well. She finally comes back, sorts it out but then she leaves again (only this time on a more permanent bases) and leaves her lover in charge. Both times, she didn’t really set up a better form of government.

      • Eve says:

        @M.A.F.:

        She fled the city because she was about to be murdered by the Sons of Harpy. She had to.

        Drogon took to her to a place she didn’t know. Then she was kidnapped by the Dothrakis.

        Tyrion, Varys, Missandei and the Unsullied stayed. Tyrion made a pact with the lords of Astapor and Yunkai. Meereen starts a new way of life but the lords break the pact they had done with Tyrion and attacked the city while she was in captivity.

        She manages to outmaneuver the Khals who wanted to enslave her since she didn’t want to live with the other widows and, once again, showed those who didn’t believe she was the unburnt.

        Then she comes back to Meereen to find the city under attack. She argues with Tyrion and has a meeting with the lords to negotiate their surrendering.

  24. DS9 says:

    Daenerys is borderline crazy anyway but finding out she isn’t the heir to the seven kingdoms given that she’s built her whole life around a birthright claim, is going to set her all the way off.

    And she’s not the only one who can control the dragons.

    And I’m feeling some way about those in previous posts who said the North was ungrateful. Her father dragged grandpa stark and uncle stark to king’s landing to burn them after what they knew to be a kidnapping of their lord’s daughter.

    It could be argued there would have been no rebellion and dude would still be on his throne or Rhaegar have succeeded him had he not been crazy and jacked with Winterfell.

    The North remembers, yes and they are also war weary. Their houses have been decimated, their way of life completely upended.

    And this Tarly affair is sitting about as well as the Karstark business did for Robb.

    • Becks1 says:

      The North isn’t ungrateful. The North remembers. There’s a reason that phrase has been a constant refrain throughout the series.

      I don’t think the North hates Dany, but I think they are wary of a Targareyn. I’m not sure what that means for Jon.

  25. Originaltessa says:

    I think they are setting it up to doubt Dany, but this story is hers (and Jon’s)and she IS a hero. She will die heroically, no throne, no glory, just in service to her people. She’s a good one. They’re making us question that, and have the characters question that, but she’s not going to be a villain. No way.

    • snappyfish says:

      I agree completely. She has a good heart. She lost a dragon to save Jon, Tormund & the others. She does want to make the world a better place. She told Yora no more raping & plundering. She has made decisions that a King would never be questioned for. This IS her & Jon’s story. I am fearful that she will die in Childbirth & Jon & the child will sit on Iron throne.

      I still want Cersei to die horribly at the hand of Arya wearing Jamie’s face who I think will die saving Brianne

  26. DS9 says:

    Also, a white woman using a brown mercenary army to defeat the enemy of a people she views as errant and rebellious subjects is still colonization.

    • Eve says:

      Neither the Unsullied nor the Dothrakis are mercenary armies.

      • DS9 says:

        Neither are they Targaryens or Westerosi. They are an invading force from a foreign land with no ties to the lands they are coming to and tenuous ties to the one they follow.

        It is not an alliance of equals or even a force fleeing hardship or terror like the Wildlings.

      • Eve says:

        @Ds9:

        (…) and tenuous ties to the one they follow.

        Tenuous? She offered the Unsullied freedom and she earned the Dothrakis respect. They follow her because they believe in her.

      • DS9 says:

        Freedom to not be slaves anymore but as we learned from Grey Worm, and then what? Aren’t they all eunuchs? What do they do when they arrive in the seven kingdoms and the war is over? Just be her standing army?

        And what does that look like for Westeros, for King’s Landing? Does she have a plan for integration into society?

        And the Dothraki are a Viking horde brought to pillage and plunder. Their role is even more tenuous. They will not find it easy to send their children to school with the children of Westeros. Their cultures and customs will isolate then and brand them as others.

        You can’t just raise a foreign army, invade, and life is good. The colonized will fight back, particularly against an invading force. It’s inevitable.

        Look throughout human history and tell me that’s not the case. The forces of Rome spread through the ages. The effects linger but Britain did not stay Roman. On the flipside, the Goths sacked Rome. Italy does not have much or any of that culture. Look at Alexander the Great.

        And Dany is failing to make alliances that would help keep any of her conquests. She treats virtually everyone as lowly subjects. More trusted than others in some cases but most everyone does or will view her as an aloof overlord, demanding respect and giving nothing in return.

      • broodytrudy says:

        Dany is so complicated. Colonization plays a role for sure, and she’s definitely more of a conqueror than a leader. She left the slave cities to Daario and the second sons iirc. The same daario who wanted her to kill half the population (again iirc). Plus the whole crucifying thing. Benevolence has never been her strong point and i think that will hurt her, whereas someone like Margery Tyrell knew how to play the game (until she got blown up at least).

        It will be interesting to see what they do with her, especially next episode where she can’t just burn my goldenboi Jaime alive, there are people there who will defend him. (I’ve been daydreaming of brienne jumping up to stand with him, sigh)

        I have a feeling that trial might show more of her character development, or lack thereof, than anything else we’ve seen from her. The writers have not done her justice in the show and i think that’s where a ton of these hate or love her stans are coming from.

    • Pamela says:

      So what’s your solution, just stay in Essos & die there? You criticize everything she does, but the fact she’s giving options shows she’s different, considering she didn’t grow up in a happy house & with good role models like the Starks, I think she’s doing the best she can. Has she made mistakes? Yes, but so every other character. Was she at fault the dothraki were raised to raid others? NO. And she tried to change them, to the point her husband died bc she tried to save women from being raped. Didn’t Jon Snow did the same w the wildlings? And people support him for doing that but yet Daenerys is bringing invaders to Westeros. Was she at fault the Unsullied were eunuchs? NO. And she tried to give them an option & they still chose to follow her. What else they could do you said? Well IDK, you’re trying to bring your morals of today to a medieval society. What is the option Daenerys have in your eyes? Stay in Essos? Kill herself bc she don’t deserve anything bc of the sins of her ancestors. Accept how society is in her world to slaves & don’t change anything so Jon or Sansa or another Stark the audience prefers ends up being the hero? By the way, the Starks are a family who was thrived in that medieval system, they’re part of the wheel, but I don’t see anyone going after them. Daenerys feels empathy with slaves bc she had felt as one for many years. I get people prefer other characters, but the truth is nothing that Daenerys would do would ever be enough. If she showed too much compassion she would be considered weak & when she shows she’s ruthless in war, she’s called a psychopath. She’s not more of the same, bc more of the same would be not giving a choice to others, trying to keep the status quo, but she doesn’t have all the answers yet & guess what neither of the other characters have it either. But as usual we demand more from women, Snow who is the hero doesn’t have all the answers, Tyrion who is a long time favorite doesn’t have all the answers either. This is what complexity looks like, but only complex women get hate, not the men

      • DS9 says:

        This thread discussed Daenerys specifically so of course that’s the aspect I’m going with here. I have plenty to say about Jon Snow’s stupidity if anyone would like to start in on that and Jon Arryn, and Ned Stark’s and Robb’s and Tywin.

        And I haven’t mentioned a single modern sensibility. All of my examples have been medieval or pre medieval in nature.

        Daenerys needs desperately needs alliances within Westeros. She could have tried to ally with House Baratheon, with Dorne, the latter being a natural fit given the deaths if her sister in law and those children.

        House Baratheon quelled outright dissention by aligning with Lannister, rewarding Stark, naming Arryn as hand, the latter two moves settling Tully and River Run or whatever. Robert sought to help continue solidifying that by seeking to marry Joffrey to Sansa.

        Even Tywin and Cersei have worked that strategy even as things fell apart.

        And why should I criticize House Stark? I didn’t think they held slaves.

        Of course she needed to free the slaves but she also needed to learn to rule what she took, and she needed to take the time to make alliances in non military ways, appointing her people to councils there and bringing some if their people to her counsel and then listening to them.

        She did try some of these things but she became frustrated by their unwillingness to immediately confirm and starting lighting shit up instead which is how she ended up fleeing.

        At the point we are now, she should be offering to marry Jon as an equal to bring Stark and the North to her banner, leaving him king in the north and king consort, Sansa as Warden of the North and then try to marry her to Tyrion or even Jaime if she could convince him.

        As far as she’s aware, she will have no heir so she must secure peace and stability politically for the future and to stave off infighting, secure loyalty for the Night King battle.

      • Becks1 says:

        @DS9 – right? This is a thread about Dany. That’s why we are talking about Dany and not whether Robert Baratheon was a good leader or not.

      • DS9 says:

        From what I can remember, the Starks have been faithful to the people of Winterfell and to the North in general which is why the Northern houses are so loyal. They are intermarried among those houses as well. They defeated the Ironborn but raised Theon alongside the Stark children, often treating him better than Snow.

        Ned saw it as his solemn duty to care for them with honor and grace. It’s part of why he would rather not have been hand and likely how Jon Arryn was made hand instead.

        That is why people don’t go after house Stark as being part of the wheel.

        They held the North by the grace of the Northern clans. Their primary fault lay in the way they treated the Wildlings, an issue that’s largely made mute by the Night King’s march south amid the demise and Mance

      • snappyfish says:

        Again, excellent response

      • Original T.C. says:

        “Didn’t Jon Snow did the same w the wildlings? And people support him for doing that but yet Daenerys is bringing invaders ”

        What what? Jon Snow got stabbed in the heart remember, he wasn’t supported. He made the exact mistake in the past that Dany is trying to do. Bringing the Wildlings and abrupt changes without listening to complaints from his fellow Nightswatch or being better at communicating. There is a reason the line “you know nothing Jon Snow!” is the most over used phrase. Jon has screwed up a lot but he learns from his mistakes and is trying to pass that on to Dany.

        P.S. Ned had to execute the Nightswatch man because it’s an established law that he broke and he unfortunately couldn’t prove his innocence. Ned took no pleasure in it and wasn’t applauded as a hero. Jon Snow himself had he not proved there really were Whitewalkers, could have been executed.

        Anyway, Dany is complex but her weakness is that knowing how to rule, not her fault she didn’t learn it growing up. She is not utilizing her resource of advisors though…

        PPS: whatbuf the Whitewalkers are not the villains of this story…???

  27. Mabs A'Mabbin says:

    I love this show. I have from the beginning. I’m embarrassed to say I’ve watched it over and over and over again lol. I have dragonstone goblets! All these years of reading articles and comments, I don’t think I’ve ever seen so much emotion lol. And for Daeny no less! Imo, she’s one of the least complex, and I actually lmao when she told Jon, at Dragonstone, that she made it through faith…in herself. Such bad acting. In any case, there’s five eps left. One way or another, shit’s gonna hit the fan. I love it, and I’m in mourning it’s almost over. It is known.

    • Jenns says:

      Seriously, I can’t believe I’m making multiple arguments about a TV show character, lol.

      In the end, I think we all love the show and are passionate about our favorite characters. And it’s way more fun to debate Westeros politics then our own. I couldn’t even explain Brexit. But I sure as hell know what’s up in the Seven Kingdoms.

      • Eve says:

        @Jenns:

        We can finally agree on something.

        It’s fun to talk about a fictional land and their politics/strategies (though I must confess I’m a bit tired for having to reply to multiple posters) because real life is a lot scarier and uglier.

        By the way, ironically Daenerys has never been my favourite character. My favourite characters are Arya and the Night King and his White Walkers.

      • Jenns says:

        I love The Night King to. Especially when he pulls a total d*ck move like putting body part symbols on walls with a kid as a centerpiece. Seriously. People are playing with dragons and waiting in courtyards while he’s moving ahead and making wall art.

        And in the end, I don’t think anyone will take the throne, but I think Dany will play a role in how Westeros moves forward. I think she will have that wheel breaking moment, just not the way she envisioned.

      • broodytrudy says:

        I hope the Night King razes everything because of the petty squabbling humans are doing. My boy Jaime will take Brienne to Essos and have babies with her. Bronn, Jorah, and the Hound get their own buddy comedy spinoff series.

      • Becks1 says:

        @Jenns it is more fun to debate the GOT politics and plot than our own, but I find it tiresome to be told repeatedly that I am sexist for not liking Dany. People can disagree about fictional characters lol.

      • Mabs A'Mabbin says:

        Passion…the mark of a good show! And to have such strong feelings for the characters is a huge nod to the actors. Every single character is so very flawed with their own list of grievances. Martin did a phenomenal job creating such character depth and then throw in political and religious turmoil, slavery, civil unrest, torture, poverty and…..magic lol! It’s almost too much to handle which is why I’m in frakking mourning. I don’t want it to end. Not until the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. I am GOT’s and GOT is mine, from this day until the end of my days.

    • Becks1 says:

      This post is almost as heated as a Meghan vs Kate post!!! LOL.

  28. Texas says:

    I thought it was respectful of her to tell him in person. She doesn’t back off from the hard conversations. Sam can grieve his horrible father but he also needs to accept what they were. It is war.

  29. Becks1 says:

    I don’t think Dany is going to be the villain, but I definitely think they are “setting her up” for something. (I keep using that term bc I cant think of another way to phrase it.) her character HAS changed over the course of the show. Maybe she is descending into madness, maybe she’s learning from mistakes, etc. I don’t think its sexist to say that she is starting to seem crazier than a few seasons ago.

    And because someone asked – yes, I thought Sansa was a little mad when she killed Ramsey. They could have just killed him with a sword or something. Using his dogs was a bit extreme. I don’t blame her for it, but there were other options. And obviously Arya is a little bit crazy too. Some of the men are crazy too (but I also think a lot of the crazier men have been killed off.) I mean, Joffrey was probably the most “mad” one on the series. So like I said – I don’t think its sexist to criticize Dany.

    • Mabs A'Mabbin says:

      I don’t think there’s enough time left for Daeny to do a180.

    • Originaltessa says:

      Joffrey was an evil bastard, but he was nothing next to Ramsay Bolton. Ultimate personification of pure evil.

      • Becks1 says:

        Yeah, you’re right, Ramsey was worse than Joffrey. Although I think Joffrey was building up to Ramsey’s level of evil.

      • Lightpurple says:

        Joffrey was just more constrained than Ramsay, too many other people around to stop him. Ramsay had a lot more freedom. Ramsay hunted women with his dogs, Joffrey tortured them with a crossbow

      • Becks1 says:

        @lightpurple that crossbow scene is one of the reasons I don’t want to rewatch the whole series. Ugh.

  30. Mtam says:

    I didn’t like how she insinuated Sansa would be punished if she didn’t “respect” Dany as her Queen. That seemed crazy, specially since she said it directly to Jon, and also cause even though Sansa wasn’t thrilled to have her there, she wasn’t showing any antagonism.

    But I honestly just chucked it up to bad writing because the show is notoriously horrible writing female characters and female character relationships—The whole Sansa/Arya feud from last season being a good example of that.

  31. Sparker says:

    The foreign invader/queen part gets me, as a foreigner. I mean, she’s basically from Westeros, found herself in exile and used the resources in a foreign location to regain access to Westeros. Just another successful colonizer narrative, isn’t it? Yes, the slaves are happy fighting her war in a cold foreign land… wait, WTF?

    • DS9 says:

      Exactly and that the Unsullied have no where to return to really and were bred for fighting no less.

      You’re basically looking at a white woman who married an Apache war chief and then after his death, talked them into sailing to Wales to invade England

      • M.A.F. says:

        Jesus. I have seen it but not really because it’s a fantasy show but this comment right. Wow. Hard cold truth right there.

  32. Veronica says:

    All I’m going to say is that the sheer amount of misogyny stated and presented by the men involved in the writing and acting in this show toward Daenerys is very telling to me. Daenerys doesn’t do anything that hasn’t been done already (and less morally) by any male character in the series. She rose from the position of a sexually and emotionally abused and exploited young girl to a power of her own using resources she had available – and she has used that power predominantly to protect the less advantaged. Flawed, yes. Made mistakes, sure. But I have no idea how anybody who has read the books thinks Daenerys is being set up to be a villain. The show, maybe, because the writers are sexist AF, but it’s always been clear to me from the reading that GRRM meant her to be in it for the long-game. She has never been the woman to fear in Westeros.

    • Bex says:

      Yes, it’s clear Dany will get more gray in the books if they ever come out, but nobody who spends as much time as she does fretting about whether her dragons being ‘monsters’ makes her a monster too is going to be a villain. The show darkened her, removed her vulnerability and self-questioning, made her more forceful. It’s not too difficult to see why people who haven’t read the books might think that’s the path they’re heading down.

      What I think she’ll have to deal with is bad PR. In the books she has no idea at all about Westeros, her father, the lords, none of it. She’ll have the best of intentions and her family’s legacy and her upbringing will make it impossible for her to execute them. She’s a true tragic hero I think.

      • DS9 says:

        But why doesn’t she? The vast majority of her advisors are Westerosi. She need only ask and most could teach her. I daresay they’ve likely tried.

      • Veronica says:

        I admit I ducked out after the second book or so, but even watching the show, I didn’t get the idea she was ever going to be evil. *shrugs* War is war is war is war, that doesn’t change because a woman is driving the most powerful armies. Frankly, I find her a lot more palatable than most of the male cast. The writers’ attempts to make JAIME of all people a sympathetic hero/antagonist is a lot grosser to me considering how f*cked the show’s portrayal of him has been. Man rapes his own sister, and I’m supposed to think he’ll die well? Gross.

        (It’s also not lost on me that Jon and Tyrion have gotten kids gloves treatment in the show. A lot of their nastier aspects have been sanitized for the series. Again, the writers strike me as extremely sexist, which is one of the reasons why I’ve stayed casually interested but never really embraced it.)

      • Bex says:

        In the books Tyrion and Varys aren’t at her side yet. Viserys spent most of their childhood indoctrinating her. Show Daenerys is way more clued up on who her father was but her advisors seem to have stopped advising.

      • Bex says:

        I’ve read all five books- Dany won’t be a villain in book or show. Oh lord, do not get me started on what they’ve done to Jaime. My absolute favourite book character, notably against sexual assault (he executes rapists among his own men and spoke out as a teenager against marital rape by his king as well, which makes him really rare among Westerosi men) and they portrayed a consensual sex scene from the books as rape. The terrifying thing is that the director and actors came out and said it wasn’t meant to be rape at all. Lena Headey said she’d acted it as if she wanted him. The showrunners literally didn’t realise they’d written and edited what was shown on screen, which is utterly damning of them because it’s not ambiguous. You can tell it wasn’t intentional too because the show examines the effects of rape- on Dany and Sansa and Cersei as well, who is traumatised by Robert- and absolutely nothing changes between her and Jaime after that scene. They want you to forget about it and consider it non canon as they continue with Jaime’s book redemption arc because they didn’t mean it. Nothing is more indicative of their misogyny than their failure on that scene, as well as their failure to admit they fucked it up.

        I think the question with Dany is meant to be ‘should she be invading in the first place?’ GRRM spends book 4 examining the awful reality of war on the smallfolk, and her dragons are destructive. All she really wants is somewhere to belong, and her tragedy is that she probably won’t find it in Westeros.

      • Becks1 says:

        @Bex I think your last paragraph sums up much of what I feel about Dany and why I’m not on board with her. I don’t know that she ever should have invaded in the first place. And it seems like she didn’t really have a plan for what to do if she was not welcomed with open arms.

      • Veronica S. says:

        I think Dany is an example of a great revolutionary leader who is short experience on actual governing. That’s where I think her relationship with Jon and (my assumption) eventually Sansa will be significant in tempering her. All three of them are people who have had to scrape their way back to power after being thrown to the dogs. They are learning how to engage with power responsibly. Jon is earnest but untried. Sansa is politically clever but lacks vision. Dany has power and vision but limited political experience. The only way the series will end well is if they learn to work together. Any other story, IMO, is just gross. These people have suffered the worst of their society’s power imbalance. A story where any of them end up becoming the villain is just nauseatingly tone deaf, and I will be livid if the show writers pull that shit. Talk about a corruption of GRRM’s intent.

    • snappyfish says:

      The books have Dany being the hero (she & Jon) I do think the show runners are misogynistic AF and are distorting her a bit. GRRM recently said that their ending will not be his. (Which means he might actually finish the series) how often was it mentioned she just wanted to go home to the house with the blue door. To belong. She had been through a poop load & is still the one who wants to free slaves & break the wheel. Those are not sentiments any other character had ever uttered

      • Veronica S. says:

        Dany is inexperienced and has plenty of her own flaws, but she’s the only one whose vision of peace encompasses something beyond her own safety and happiness. That’s why she’s the revolutionary here and not Sansa as some people seem to think. Sansa is certainly becoming more mature and realizing a world beyond herself with responsibilities to her people, but it’s pretty clear to me that she is doing so partially out a desperate desire for safety and security. (Which, granted, I absolutely do NOT blame her for after what she’s gone through.)

        Ultimately, I think this is where the two of them can and should meet in the middle. That’s where the story should absolutely go because, really, it’s the women driving the story now, not Jon or Jaime or any of the men. They’re players in power games driven by female ambition. It’s complete turnaround from where we were at the start of the story. Fundamentally, Sansa and Dany are the same person in terms of their journey and victimization at the hands of their society. The difference is that Dany was gifted an immense form of power that allowed her to pursue a vision to produce a better world, while Sansa had to be toppled from a place of immature privilege and ignorance to undergo a much harder development of adult worldview. They have so much they can learn from each other and empathize with, and I am going to be very, very disgusted with the male writers if they decide to set two RAPE VICTIMS against each other in a moral dick waving contest about who’s the better one.

      • msd says:

        Oh for goodness sake, GRRM said the opposite! He said the show ending WON’T be different from the books. He said this very, very clearly. All the main characters – Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Cersei, Sansa, Arya, Jaime – are getting his ending. Minor secondary characters are murky because he hasn’t worked out every single detail.

        As for Dany. It’s not going to be as clear cut as Mad Queen but she isn’t supposed to be the heroine. She’s a conqueror more than a ruler. We aren’t supposed to be applauding when she says she was born to rule. GRRM is actually questioning that sense of entitlement. I’m not a big fan of Jon, I find him dull, but his reluctance to rule and his ambivalence about power is exactly what makes we’re supposed to see as heroic.

  33. Cindy says:

    I thought Sam’s mourning of his family was very appropiate for his character, and it was used to make a sharp contrast between him and Dany. Sam is willing to mourn the people who made his life impossible – Dany is willing to burn the people who don’t respect her authority. “You gave up your throne for your people, would she do the same?” I think the whole point of that scene was showing that Dany is really power-hungry and teaching Jon how politics work. Mind you, Jon has spent his entire time of the show at the wall and north of it where nobody cares about Westerosi politics, and we all know his naivety already got him killed once.

  34. AryasMum says:

    I think John Bradley may be doing some producer approved bait and switching. Similar to how they baited the audience that Sansa would betray Jon last season, or Arya and Sansa might kill the other. They’re ratcheting up the tension because they know a segment of the audience wants Dany to follow in her father’s footsteps, and others love her and fear the writers will go there.

    I also think Bradley is speaking in character, and Sam’s kind and gentle soul would have reacted by thinking she was a psychopath. He’s known her for five seconds and been given this devastating news. His family was severely affected, and his innocent mother and sister will bear the consequences.

    • Emilia says:

      Yup, the actors have been known to outright lie in interviews (Jon snow is dead and not coming back anyone?) in order to mislead the audience. John’s comments make me think Dany will NOT go mad, they just want us to think she will.

  35. Amelie says:

    I don’t think Daenerys is necessarily psychopathic but she has changed over the course of the 8 seasons. She came from a genuinely good place but all that power is definitely corrupting her mentality. Now it seems she is more quick to use her dragons–such as making an example out of the Tarlys. The closer she gets to the Iron Throne, the more blinded to the consequences she becomes. Jon realizes she won’t give up her claim to the throne for anything and once she finds out his parentage, she’ll probably all be about him bending the knee. However being Rhaegar’s son will make him the true heir. I don’t think she’ll be as bothered that she’s his aunt–Daenerys is a product of incest after all (Aerys and her mother Rhaella were brother and sister). But I do wonder if they are setting up Dany to become “mad” like her father. Or maybe being viewed as more of the same in the Seven Kingdoms. I do think that Jon and Daenery’s romance is doomed, but we all knew that from the start.

    The Unsullied and Dothraki follow Daenerys because they believe her, they aren’t forced to serve her. And of course her dragons… without them Daenerys wouldn’t have been able to conquer as much as she had. I’m just wondering if she’ll be willing to change her strategy to endear herself to Westerosi because so far they don’t like her much.

  36. Tiff says:

    Dany is an authoritarian leader and that’s why she needs Tyrion/Ser Barristan types around her because they keep her from doing exactly what she wants which would turn the common people away from her. Dany is young Cersei (no hate because they get shit done) and Sam, Sansa, and Arya see it and don’t trust it. Sansa don’t have time for Jon’s crush (bending the knee for no reason! Dany already agreed to help!) Sansa got a budget and the North to run and the budget for Dragons is no.

    • Mrs.Krabapple says:

      Sansa still has her head up her behind. She STILL treats the White Walkers like they are a minor, side annoyance. Jon has faced them, he knows they have a poor chance of beating them, but they need to fight with everything they’ve got anyway – all their survivals depends on it. That’s why he went south for dragonglass. Well, he returned with dragon glass, plus an army, plus two dragons. So what the eff does Sansa want? For Dany to say, “no, thank you – you Northerners go ahead and fight the undead army all by yourself”? It’s easy for Sansa to criticize Jon, but she never offers alternative plans herself.

      The show can TELL us Sansa is smart, but they don’t know how to write episodes that SHOW us Sansa is smart. Even now, she comes across as selfish, arrogant, and clueless. I am female, so I understand the desire to have Sansa be smart/competent (since there are few smart/competent women in Game of Thrones that are not also crazy or cruel), but the show writers haven’t figured out how to do that.

      • Tiff says:

        I disagree, I think Sansa is being practical and keep in mind Sansa hasn’t actually seen the WW so she the urgency’s not there AT THE SAME TIME she has seen the day to day tasks and budget. Things Jon doesn’t care about but make a difference to the day to day. Neither is right or wrong but they are coming from two different vantage points. Sansa has every right to be upset with Jon for bending the knee. And she has every right to be suspicious of Dany. What Jon did was stupid. He would have had the dragon glass and the dragons/army without bending the knee. He should have talked to Sansa about it first who has a much better relationship with their bannermen than Jon does at this point. And… Dany is an authoritarian and a manipulator. She’s young Cersei.

      • Mrs.Krabapple says:

        @ Tiff – I disagree with Sansa’s continual refusal to believe what Jon is telling her. Sure, Sansa hasn’t seen the Night King yet, but Jon has. So why does she think SHE knows more about beating the Night King than Jon? And Sansa oversees day-to-day tasks at Winterfell, but those are ministerial duties. So if she wants to serve on a council fine, but that is not the same as the kid of leadership both Jon and Dany have shown. And perhaps the bannermen are rethinking their support of Jon because Sansa has undermined him in front of everyone, on several occasions? Jon united the North, the Wildlings, and the Knight’s watch, and things only fell apart because he left Sansa in charge while he was gone — which, I admit, was a big mistake on Jon’s part. But he had no other choice except to leave, because they needed the dragon glass (and dragons, and armies) to fight the undead. Sansa, on the hand, did have a choice to NOT undermine Jon, yet she chose the wrong path. And right up until the very last episode of Season 7, she STILL was trusting Littlefinger to guide her despite EVERYONE warning her not to. And after her speech about learning so much from Littlefinger, she showed she STILL doesn’t “get it” when she told Aria that Littlefinger “loved” her in his own way (uh, no, he didn’t).

        I don’t read the books, but here’s what I suspect: in the books, Sansa has a true learning arc, and actually grows wiser and into a good leader. But, the writers for the tv show don’t know how to show that in the short time they have left, so they keep the “tension” by having Sansa behave in a dumb way, but lay the foundation for her to be proclaimed a “leader” by simply having other characters describe her as “smart.” It could be the character is simply suffering from bad writing. But the writers could at least try to keep Sansa’s bitching sidelined until after the undead are dealt with, then have her step forward to guide the “good guys” in dealing with Cersie. But now is not the right time for that.

  37. Eve says:

    Ok, I’m leaving this thread. I’m going to let something that made a lot happy weeks prior to the 8th (and last) season. The poster featuring a possible winner.

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTkHLg6rQtSQML3pcyBhrm7JFv_V28qo4YzoAqWN0ik1i2kuGMy

    • Amelie says:

      I’ve been wondering if the Night King is possibly a Targaryen relation? He’s riding Viserion after all. A lot of theories have been written about that one.

  38. Isa says:

    He did a good job with that scene, bc that’s what I immediately thought of based on other people’s experiences. Some people are able to not care but many have a difficult time processing.

  39. DS9 says:

    Bex, this is excellent take.

    “I think the question with Dany is meant to be ‘should she be invading in the first place?’ GRRM spends book 4 examining the awful reality of war on the smallfolk, and her dragons are destructive. All she really wants is somewhere to belong, and her tragedy is that she probably won’t find it in Westeros.”

    Daenerys reminds me a bit of Zenobia vs Rome.

  40. A.Key says:

    I don’t even like Daenerys, but this psychoanalysis of a woman behaving like a conqueror is really grating on my nerves. How the hell was she supposed to act upon delivering the news that she killed someone’s parent in battle?? Should she have cried and hugged him? WTF. She’s a ruler and just won a battle. She’s not gonna go around comforting the families of her enemies. Are people insane? If she were a man NO ONE would expect her to act any differently than she did. She came to conquer and she’s behaving accordingly. Anything else would be a sign of weakness and political suicide for her. Would you expect Brienne or Jaime of basically any other warrior to comfort their enemies after they won a battle?? Yeah I don’t think so.
    So she has dragons, so what? It’s like the USA having nuclear weapons and using them to impose their influence worldwide, especially with countries who have none. It’s called politics, why shouldn’t she exploit her advantage? Anyone else would.

    • DS9 says:

      She could have started by addressing him by his new title. I don’t think anyone thinks she needed to cry or hug him but the casual manner in which she shrugged it off was unnerving.

      How hard would it have been to say even imperiously, I regret to inform you, Lord Tarly that your father and brother chose to die rather than recognize my rightful claim.

      It seems rather shortsighted to behave as if she doesn’t have some responsibility or need to curry some measure of favor with those she means to rule. Unhappy or resentful nobility breeds rebellion down the road.

      I felt the same way about Robb’s dealings with the Karstarks among others. Both Robb and Dany’s actions could easily be seen as justifiable. I don’t think they were absolutely wrong or the actions of a psychotic but they were half baked and knee jerk and lacked

      diplomacy.

      In fact, I’d argue that Daenerys’s mistakes mirror Robb’s. Robb did not properly tend to his relationships with established bannerman like Karstarks, the Freys, etc. Robb knew their histories, he had trusted counsel advising him and he did as he pleased.

      And lastly, I don’t think the criticism is sexist. The fact of the matter is that the majority of the ruling and would be ruling men are gone. Any chance to belabor the mistakes and motivations of Robb, Ned, Stannis, Robert, or Renly has already been done.

      We are discussing what we have before us and none us knows what each of us have previously said about those who came before.

    • Originaltessa says:

      She didn’t kill them in battle though. I’m team Dany, but the circumstances of the Tarley’s deaths isn’t that black and white. The battle was over. They had already surrendered. They weren’t allowed to retreat back to their home base, they were given an ultimatum of bend the knee or die, or take black (which was Tyrion’s idea). It wasn’t her best moment.

      • DS9 says:

        True but Dany sees it that way and it’s a decent framework to use if you want to imply that you respect the title and history but you view him as a subject first.

        But Sam got that message regardless since it’s the one he turned around and made to Jon.

        The White Walkers are the prevailing threat but if they survive, the world will still need rule. I think that’s Sansa’s mindset.

        And I think she also wonders if Daenerys understands the pressing threat and is fighting for that, why did Jon need to bend the knee in subjugation and not serve instead as ally?

        And perhaps Sansa is also thinking of the stories she cut her teeth on, of the long winter, of what else there is to come. It’s been drilled into the North’s head that they must store up to survive whatever comes. I don’t think in that context that’s she’s foolish for wondering how to feed everyone.

      • Veronica S. says:

        They would have turned back around and attacked at the next opportunity. The Lannisters have made plenty of their own shady and underhanded movements in this ongoing fight for power. This time, they got outplayed. Such is the nature of a war.

        The men of GoT have created a brutal world. The women suffer the most for it. I have little sympathy for Jaime and those like him that somebody like Dany is delivering some of that brutality back on them. Create a world on the edge of the sword, don’t be surprised when you are cut, etc, etc.

      • Bex says:

        But they didn’t get outplayed. They got nuked. Daenerys was not framed as the hero in that scene, the carnage was horrific. GRRM himself has called those dragons weapons of mass destruction.

      • Lightpurple says:

        But the Tarlys had already committed an act of betrayal. They were sworn to Highgarden and Lady Olenna. They betrayed her in exchange for the Lannister’s promise that they would give them Highgarden to rule. Dickon even said he found it difficult to kill men he had spent his life training with. Dickon had a choice but he chose to die with his father.

      • Veronica S. says:

        They were an army with intent. Even if they weren’t in an actual battle, they’re targets if they won’t acknowledge the victor. It happens all the time in war. Jaime’s own sister knocked out political obstacles via a terrorist attack. Tarly betrayed Olenna in a bid to get Highgarden. Their deaths are a result of his own miscalculations. Half of war is choosing your alliances wisely. They did not.

        Dany isn’t framed as a hero there because there are no heroes in war. It’s a power struggle, and it is inevitably ugly. But at no point should you feel bad for either Jaime or Tarly there. Their men, maybe, but they knew the risks. They underestimated their enemy’s power. If the power dynamics were reversed, they would be doing the exact same thing – maybe worse, since they aren’t doing any of it with the ultimate goal of “breaking the wheel.”

  41. Sterkviking says:

    I like Sam – he is good and kind. Many children with horrible parents are sad when their mom and dad have died. Look at the many stories you hear of foster children wanting to go back to their parents even if they weren’t great. Loving or wanting the love of a parent is primal.

    It feels like it is going to be Starks vs. Khaleesi for the throne in the beginning. I can’t see Khaleesi being okay about Jon being the rightful king since she has pursued this for so many years. I love both but with Arya’s warning not to forget who is family to Jon and the sisters not liking Khaleesi, it may be those two groups fighting.

    Overall, why should someone rule over the seven kingdoms just because their father did? I didn’t think of this until recently. Have we fallen into the trap that it must be so?