Days after the El Paso and Dayton mass murders, I read this interesting sociological piece about how white men in America are becoming radicalized into becoming domestic terrorists or white supremacist terrorists. It starts somewhat innocently enough for many of these (mostly) young white men: the feeling that they are not all-powerful in society, the feeling that other people (people of color, women) are gaining power. They feel alienated because they are not the center of everything. They start to seek out voices that agree with them and they’re sucked into an echo chamber (online and in real life) which feeds into their victim complex. Their ideas are reinforced and nurtured. All the while, guns and violence surround them, and pieces start to come together. Throughout the entire process, the men feel like outsiders, even as their echo chambers soothe them and make them angrier.
I bring this up because I think Joker is about that. It’s an apologia to the angry white man who feels he is losing power and decides to take back power through violence. The Joker has always been an agent of chaos, if not a flat-out domestic terrorist. I’ve argued that the power of the Joker’s position in pop culture is his lack of backstory – it’s scarier when we don’t know how he became that way, or what even motivates him. But Todd Phillips’ Joker, starring Joaquin Phoenix gives the origin story for the Joker, and big surprise… he seems to think he’s the biggest victim in the world. Everyone yells at him. Everyone is violent to him. No one thinks he’s funny. No one thinks he has any power. But don’t you know, he does have power: the power to sow chaos and violence with other aggrieved white dudes. Behold, the latest and final trailer for JOKER (no “the”):
“All I have are negative thoughts…” Yeah, that’s when “if you see something, say something” kicks in, especially when it’s an angry white nihilist dude. “Hello, 9-1-1? There’s a white dude with a clown fetish sitting in my office and I truly think he’s two seconds away from becoming a self-radicalized domestic terrorist.” It’s interesting that Robert DeNiro is in this too – Taxi Driver was the proto-Joker in some sense. Alienated white dude, turns to gun violence.
Photos courtesy of Backgrid, ‘Joker’.
Nice to see DiNiro in a good movie, he’s really picked some bad ones as he’s gotten older.
I will see this because Joaquin is a revelation in every role.
This is such a truly scary concept and like you say in this article, very very real in our society.
I’ll definitely be seeing this but *only* because of Joaquin. He’s such a phenomenal actor.
I agree with above but I have to say that Joaquin is freaking amazing and he genuinely gives me the creep as Joker.
I have a feeling he is going out-act Jack Nicholson & Heath Ledger.
I can completely understand the points about normalising extremism.
I’m not sure Joaquin will out act Ledger, that was simply extraordinary and still one of the standout performances of my time, in my opinion.
In saying that, my husband just watched the trailer and in his words, everything Joaquin is in is just intriguing even if you don’t find it appealing.
I agree with you about Ledger but I also have to say that although it’s natural to compare, I don’t think it has to be a competition because all three actors are SO different in terms of acting style. Ledger’s performance will always be untouchable to me, but I bet Phoenix will bring his own unique style to this role and make it memorable and ground-breaking in his own way.
How Jared Leto ever got the job…
This was inspired and a somewhat homage to taxi driver and the king of comedy. Scorcese was the producer.
I agree. Both were great movies and, for me, anything with Scorsese’s name on it is a must. Rupert and Travis morphed into JOKER.
Completely agree!
YES!
Unabashedly hyped for this, Joaquin Phoenix looks amazing in this.
Oh I am so here for this.
The trailer does look good and I’m sure that Joaquin Phoenix is good in the role.
But are they really trying to sell us that he’s a failed comedian who is a “nice guy” and a “victim” of society? Because that totally sounds like ever white terrorist manifesto. Not every villain needs a back story that attempts to humanize them.
I am here for Joaquin all day.
The trailer almost looks like a movie about a guy who really wanted to be a clown and finally achieves his dream after years of hard work and rejection in the super-cutthroat world of clowning.
Giving the Joker a backstory ruins the whole purpose and vibe of the character. Giving him an “oh-poor-white-male-victim” backstory is lazy and reductive.
And while I love Joaquin, he’s definitely no Heath Ledger. Ledger’s Joker was genuinely frightening. Phoenix’s Joker seems…well, whiny.
Yeah so won’t be seeing this in theaters.. honestly what we don’t need is more copycats shooting theaters like in Aurora.
Also just because you take people’s sh*t doesn’t mean you’re a nice person.
A comedian who’s not made fun of because his material doesn’t land? Not possible.
the movie is not the problem: the person choosing to go into the theater to do it is the problem. him getting access to guns is the problem. him not getting medical attention is a problem. whiteness is a problem. How many people have seen the matrix, t2 etc and not shot up a building full of innocent people? They are going to hurt people regardless of what film comes out. There is no mind control going on where white men watch these films and then go crazy. What they are doing is a choice.
You have every right to not see the film. I am going after the idea that these films are the reason this stuff happens.
The movie is not the problem. But crazy people attach to ideas and copycats are out there.
i wouldn’t argue that the films bear direct responsibility, but I acknowledge the slippery slope of influence, you know?
sometimes negative influence is foreseeable & can be prevented.
it’s unwise to ignore that.
It’s a great movie trailer. It got me intrigued.
I used to think he was so cute but now all I see is deranged. Not just related to this movie, the change started back when he did the faux autobiographical movie with Casey Affleck. Just ick.
I agree with you Jen. Do you think he starves himself to look so haggard? I imagine diet coke and cigs are his main staples. Remember when he was so hot in Gladiator, jarringly crazy, but still hot.
Yeah, I can’t stand him.
I lost interest in Joaquin around that time, too.
Random thoughts:
I am side eyeing how all the black women are being treated in the trailer.
zazie beetz is supposed to be his love interest? is this based off The Killing Joke or is this wholly original?
It is a well put together trailer.
I agree with most of your assessment but honestly am not really going to pick up a pitchfork just because some of yall just woke up. White men being domestic terrorists is not a new thing. A white man being a domestic terrorist is as new as the American flag. The klan, the police in black and brown neighborhoods. White men getting away with killing innocent non-white people. This shit is not new. It may be new for YOU but this is not new for everyone else. Incels will look for any reason to hurt someone. This film is not responsible for their terrible acts, nor is any other action film , video game, etc. Their actions are solely on them. It is a choice to hurt people in mass shootings, rape, or bombings. I am sick of this argument whether intentionally made or not, that those fartknockers are not 100% responsible for their actions. All those films and all these think pieces about films influencing white men to commit horrific crimes, to me at least, reinforces the idea that white men are victims. White men aren’t the problem, them playing video games are the problem, Never mind that black people, asian people, etc play the same damn video games and don’t go into a packed theater with ak-47s like white men do. White men are not victims.
This film does not look to me like an ode to those losers. We know the Joker is the villain. he has always been the villain. Giving him a backstory does not change the fact that he is an anti-social chaos agitator. Just because he is convinced he is a victim and he is convinced that he is right, does not make it correct.
I agree with all of what you said except this being an ode to those losers. Because to me like Taxi Driver, Fight Club, Natural Born Killers it definitely reads to me like the glorification of white male rage.
I’d prefer to -not- agree, but why do all these “white male rage” films star the sexiest men in Hollywood? Brad Pitt- fight club, American History X-edward norton (buff & young) Natural Born Killers- W Harrelson in his hey day…etc. Now everyone swoons over Joaquin & he’s the latest domestic terrorist? Would it be better to cast a gross looking actor w a rap for chaos? Perhaps? Like Macayley Culkin etc? I mean, the recent terrorists are NOT hot dudes, they’re freaks & funny looking. Sorry, but the photos of a sexed out Edward Norton w swastika tattoos just BOTHERS.
Especially Fight club. I love David Fincher, and he did a good job as director, visuals are good, but story itself is about an alpha male from incels playbook. And it’s not a satire, it was a straight up glorifying, well no doubt this movie, and the book, are highly popular in bro culture.
The killing joke comic book gave Joker a backstory. There he was a bad comedian too, who joined a criminal group to earn money for his pregnant wife, but when she died, he fallen into bowl of chemicals, and his skin bleached, he went mad. Than he wanted to do the same with commissioner Gordon, by shooting his daughter Barbara and showing Jim photos of her being abused by Joker. Sense of story is some people go mad because of a tragedy, some are strong and don’t. I’m not a big fan of story, but it is really beautiful novel. I guess TDK and this movie borrow a lot from The killing joke,but do it differently. Joker is personality-less character, and there are Batman and Harvey, who are getting more or less mad by tragedy, orchestrated by Joker, Todd’s movie, well, takes this backstory about fallen comedian, and puts it as a center of entire movie,so I am sceptical about it. But I didn’t think about it as a white supremacist story, really good take, I will use it in the future, when the movie will come out, to argue with my geek friends,lol.
Kaiser,
I usually agree with you but yeah no not with this one
This movie looks amazing, and I think Joaquin Phoenix is one of the greatest actors of his generation. It is a sensitive topic in this climate, and I hope the director handles it gracefully and responsibly. I think there is a way to artistically examine the culture of white, male violence without glorifying it or making excuses for it – I hope this movie manages it!
Well. This does not look like a movie that will make an unforgettable – or even meaningful – contribution to the understanding of radical evil. Mostly makes me feel like reading Kant and Arendt again.
Yeah…it’s a no for me. Im frankly sick of white male anger being glorified and painted like it’s valid or important or not what it truly is- white supremacy. It’s not interesting.
And the whole reason why The Joker works as a character is that you DON’T know his origin story.
This right here.
Which is why The Dark Knight’s version was so good, at least for me.
The Joker was a straight psychopath and not know why made it all the better. He was what he was and I was looking to empathize with him.
Every single thing about this movie annoys me to be honest especially the reaction, as if another movie that pushes the cynical ‘omg society is so evil’ crap as if that’s in any way deep, groundbreaking or complex. The movie is basically every edgy white boy I ever met in high school who thought he was deep because he was a pessimist and idolized the Columbine shooters.
Exactly. Literally nothing new or interesting is being said in this film.
Why is the Sexiest Man in Hollywood usually cast as the latest white terrorist, from Edward Norton in his day, now to Joaquin Phoenix. Just sends a blaring, abeit, conflicting message. Sorry, but make it stop!!!
@Miss Grace Jones – Every word of your comment was perfection.
The trailer does not make me want to watch this movie. I’m done with the tantrums of whiny, moody white men who failed at their dreams and got butthurt when they realized they weren’t actually entitled to everything they wanted.
I love “The Killing Joke” as a stand-alone novel, but I also hate it because it tries to justify and explain a chaotic evil force.
Reframing psychopaths into relatable, understandable humans only ensures that people won’t be able to defend themselves against or even identify actual psychopaths. There’s nothing deep, interesting, or philosophical to be found in the depths of the psychopathic brain. It’s just self-pity, hatred, and grandiosity.
And from a story perspective, it ruins the whole concept of the character.
One of the scariest true crime books I’ve ever read was “The Only Living Witness,” where the authors presented Ted Bundy in his own words. They didn’t romanticize him (like, at ALL – they hated him) and they didn’t find any rationale or justification for his eventual turn to psychopathy. They basically concluded that Ted was just a monster, completely beyond the comprehension of most humans – and even Ted himself couldn’t explain “why” he was who he was.
An ineffable evil force is terrifying. And that’s what the Joker is, and that’s what makes him so scary, and such a great foil to Batman. “Dark Knight” captured this perfectly — the Joker himself can’t explain why he does these things, and he doesn’t try to. Whereas everything about Batman is so tightly controlled, carefully considered, and resolutely on the side of “goodness.” That’s why they need each other — each can define himself by how *not* like the other he is.
Just a quick question: why hasn’t Joaquin Phoenix been cancelled alongside Casey Affleck? Because he’s sad, white and talented?
He was the definition of enabling at first before actually becoming complicit during the shooting of that movie in Costa Rica. For example, on one occasion, Casey Affleck and Joaquin Phoenix allegedly locked themselves in the women’s shared bedroom, using the room to “engage in sexual activity.”
Oh, and I wanted to hear about a white dude murdering people because society has been so evil to him (looooooool), I would watch the news.
This is a GREAT question. Because ever since the stories about Affleck came out and Joaquin’s role in those incidents I have given him MAJOR side eye.
Although a big fan of JP’s talent, I definitely agree with you.
I’ve read those court documents and I have no idea why he gets a pass.
Also, I don’t care what kind of arrangement Casey had with Summer during their marriage … sleeping with a bunch of randoms with your BIL is so disrespectful. They are both vile.
I agree somewhat, but this is based off the comic that gives Joker a backstory if I’m remembering correctly. I don’t know…I wanna see it. Joker is one of my favorite “villains” and Joaquin is an amazing actor and I’m curious to see what he brings to this character compared to Heath. Also forgot Zazie was in this as well and I love her.
People need to watch their Scorcese. This is much more similar to the King of Comedy than Taxi Driver, and I think even Todd Philips realizes it. Heck look who De Niro is playing!
Anyway I completely agree Kaiser, the reason the joker works so well is because he is borderline elemental, just a force of nature that works against and is a reaction to Batman. Giving him any sort of concrete origin just takes away from the character’s purpose. He is more threatening because we can’t understand him.
Well said.
just wanted to co-sign what aiobhan targaryen said, but also add:
people underestimate the extent to which joe rogan exhibited and exhibits a huge influence in the aggrieved male demographic.
they don’t call him the midwife to the alt-right for nothing.
my brother is a black man – a *dark-skinned* black man – who has espoused alt-right beliefs since being exposed to them on the joe rogan experience.
when he started listening to rogan in 2011, he was with his baby mama and formed a family with his toddler. his politics were very mainstream – socially liberal and fiscally moderate.
in 2012, he was stopped by cops while driving because of unpaid parking tickets. they found weed and speed in his car and he was arrested and is just now emerging through legal and financial hell from that charge.
he was fired from his banking job. his girlfriend left him and in 2014, she took my niece to live a twelve hour car ride away. he had no money and no legal standing to battle for shared custody. plus, he is a black man and his ex is a lily white woman. he figured there was no way in hell he stood a chance.
that’s about the time rogan started bringing on a lot more of those disgusting alt-right characters. my brother self-medicated (still does) with alcohol and branched out from the rogan podcast into listening to a variety of alt-right figures, while also adopting a toxic mindset with regards to women and masculinity.
my mom is a feminist. she never raised him that way and he never exhibited any behavior that even slightly veered towards that mindset.
rather than turning towards his family or friends for support, he turned to alcohol and the toxic cesspool of alt-right ideology.
we are at a loss with what to do with him. though i truly don’t believe scorn and further marginalization are the answer.
WOW. I’m at a loss for words. I feel for you and your family SO much. I hope your brother has an epiphany and gets the help he clearly needs before he spirals even further.
RE: Joe Rogan. My BF’s stepdad listens to him almost obsessively and keeps sending pods to my boyfriend to listen to. He has on a lot of guests from the Bernie World and of course, that piques the interest of my Sanders-loving BF. I have always found something very toxic and unsettling about Rogan that I couldn’t quite put my finger on. Yes, he has some questionable guests like Tulsi Gabbard and the Infowars nut job but there’s something else that really unnerves me. It’s like he’s tapping into that venn diagram overlap where Alt-Right meets Anarchist meets Socialist. Maybe the common thread is a distrust of government and the *establishment* and a distaste for identity politics and political correctness.
I’m open to hearing other thoughts that people have about Rogan because I could be wrong, but this is just the gut reaction I had from listening to various excerpts from his show while also observing the behavior of his fanbase.
I’ve had similar thoughts on Joe Rogan. I don’t listen regularly, only when he has a guest that really piques my interest (Henry Rollins ir Sam Harris for example). However, I did catch Rogan’s interview with Ben Shapiro. During the interview, I thought Ben made some interesting points on certain topics. That being said, I’m the type who needs to ruminate on something before I know how I really feel. After giving Ben’s words some thought, I determined he speaks intelligently but breaks nuanced issues down to simple soundbites that suite his purpose.
For instance, Ben stated transpeople are “humored” and are being normalized as a segment of society while say, schizophrenics are advised to seek therapy and be medicated. Ben said no one is agreeing with a schizophrenic that “the refrigerator is talking to them” while a person is now ostracized if they disagree that it’s healthy to want to switch sexes or gender. Rogan agreed with him.
What Ben said gave me pause for thought but after further consideration, Ben took a very complex issue, stripped away the different factors and made an argument that is very simplistic and unfair to transpeople. People like this are dangerous because they make horrible ideas sound reasonable. Rogan has a lot of people like that on his show and will only mildly challenge them. I mean who in their right mind would want to give Alex Jones a platform?
Rogan’s also very much a bro and I remember being disgusted when he defended Johnny Depp after it came out that Depp was an abusive mess. He just referred to Amber Heard as a gold digger.
re: Rogan’s show…the conversation about radicalization through shows like his is a conversation some people are having, but I seriously think it needs to be everywhere. Look up Caleb Cain, a guy who was radicalized by the alt-right but got out before it was too late when he saw some of his favorite figures being debated, and he gradually realized he agreed more with the other side.
I can’t even imagine what you’re going through with your brother, and how hopeless it must feel—but here’s an interview Caleb did with Sam Seder where he describes how exactly he got de-radicalized. It gave me hope.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AIBwUZeF2Gc
I’m not getting the hate on rogan and I’m female
He actually interviews people
From ALL wavelengths alt Right, Left, socialist, crazy fuck Alex Jones etc
I enjoy him cause I’m into martial arts but he maintains a plethora of high profile guests across the board
If you don’t like him cause of UFC or his ideas on hunting, drugs etc ok but he actually crosses the gamut in interviews.
Rogan from what I’ve listened doesn’t have a toxic viewpoint of women or is alt right in the least . Listen to when he interviews assholes like milo and Ben Shapiro he also Is against and demeans the “incel” mindset.
Unpopular, radical opinion: Heath Ledger ruined Joker and DC movies forever. Yes his performance was great, but I’m so damn tired of all these superheroes having some “dark” back story and how they are always attempting to make these men with superpowers in ridiculous costumes look deep.
I wish we could get a Joker like the one in the cartoons back. I miss when Batman was more self-aware and campy.
Trump is the Joker. Boris Johnson in the Joker. “…the power to sow chaos and violence with other aggrieved white dudes.” We’re living through it.
This looks awful to me. It seems like Todd Phillips had an idea for a story but could only get funding if he tied it to Batman, because this character is not The Joker. My boyfriend (who is a comic book artist and huge Batman fan) says the problem with this trailer is that it justifies the Joker’s motivations. He says in the comics the Joker tries to promote the idea that society pushed him to become what he did, but that Batman exists as a counterpoint. Terrible things happened to Bruce Wayne as a child, but he used that as fuel to try to make the world a better place instead of burning it down. Since this movie seemingly explores the Joker without Batman, we don’t get that counterpoint. We just get this white terrorist apologia.
I’ve got a ton of Batman graphic novels. I wish they’d move away from the joker & make some bm vs predator movies or some of the really weird (but great) other realms stories.
I agree, I don’t see it as Batman’s Joker either.
cute way to downplay mental illness.
I was pretty meh on this movie till the last trailer. Now the reviews are coming in calling it a masterpiece and I can not wait to see it.