There is nothing like a good fantasy series with wizards, warlocks, witches and other magical beings. Especially when those magical beings are as dark and swoon-worthy as Ben Barnes in Shadow and Bone or Henry Cavill in The Witcher. I also love the badass women characters in these shows. Netflix has been delivering these last couple of years and their newest hit show, Shadow and Bone, is no exception. I watched the show in a day and was mad when it was over. The show is based on a book series by YA author Leigh Bardugo. Bardugo spoke with The Guardian about her childhood and how women’s interests are often derided by the men who control culture.
Like Twilight’s Bella or Katniss from The Hunger Games, Bardugo’s Alina is yanked from obscurity. She is an orphan conscripted to the First Army, a non-magical force in the kingdom of Ravka that serves as cannon fodder, when an accident reveals that she is actually a Grisha, one of the mysterious magical elite who are usually identified in childhood and form Ravka’s feared Second Army. But Alina is no ordinary Grisha. She is the Sun Summoner of prophecy with the power to destroy the Fold, a gigantic, shadowy zone filled with dark creatures that has split Ravka for centuries. So Alina is whisked away from her dishy childhood friend Mal to be trained by the equally dishy Darkling, a Ravkan general who wields the shadow to her sun, and holds a secret, vested interest in her power.
A special, magical girl with two boys fighting over her: so far, so YA. But Bardugo’s books are unique in a few ways: their rich, tsarist Russia-inspired setting; her ornate social hierarchies and magic systems; Alina’s prickliness. They are popular for the same reasons snobs may mock them: they’re nerdy, romantic and appealing to young women. “Teenage girls have so much sway over culture, yet people sneer at the things that women and girls love, and are contemptuous of the creators of that content, particularly if they are women,” Bardugo says. “To me, that contempt speaks to a deep fear. When you start dictating culture, money gets involved and people take notice. When I see someone deride things that women and girls find pleasure in, all I see is someone fearful that women will overtake the culture they’ve had dominion over for so long.”
With her dark lipstick and gothic clothing, often seen with a silver-headed cane (Bardugo has osteonecrosis), the 46-year-old is the antithesis of California beach culture. But though she was born in Jerusalem, Bardugo was raised in Los Angeles, a precocious reader, as lonely children often are. Bullied for her Jewish faith and relative lack of wealth by rich kids at school, she was also “very unhappy” at home. So she retreated into Frank Herbert, Isaac Asimov, Octavia Butler, Diana Wynne Jones and Stephen King. “Reading, like writing, was a survival strategy when I was young because these were ways of feeling that my world could be much larger than it actually was,” she says. “It was inevitable that I would end up writing sci-fi or fantasy.”
Despite the YA fantasy genre being a money-making machine, hello Twilight and Hunger Games, the genre is often dismissed. I agree with Bardugo, girls and women create so much culture. We are the driving force behind change in society and yes capitalism. Boy bands became money makers because gaggles of girls deemed it so. Elvis and his gyrating hips became an international phenomena because of, you guessed, screaming throngs of teenage girls. It is funny how women and girls are the catalyst behind culture yet the things we love are often ridiculed even after they become popular.
I also found Leigh’s origin story quite fascinating. It’s wonderful when people can transform their pain into something magical. Bardugo was able to see her story come to life on Netflix and they allowed her some creative control as well. I look forward to reading the books. I have this feeling that the stories are a peek into Bardugo’s childhood. I am also looking forward to season two of Shadow and Bone. I can’t get enough of the Darkling, aka Ben Barnes.
One of the main reasons I broke up with my ex was that every single time I started talking about the things that I was passionate about, he would just zone out and stop listening to me. And when he would talk about the things he was passionate about, I was expected to listen and interact. Same with the job; mine was a silly little thing and he would always talk to me when I was working; his job was important and would always tell me to shut up when I was talking to him when he was working. God, I’m so happy to be out of that relationship.
I once had a boyfriend lament that I was no longer creative because I had stopped writing fiction and poetry. He said this in my home, surrounded by my embroidery and my beautiful garden. When men love it, it’s art. When women love it, it’s a craft.
And men invest mental energy at distinguishing their work from what women do. Like a male cook like Cooking with Babish highlights his artistry and experimentation as if that distinguishes him from the billions of women who do the same damn thing every single damn day! Or how male actors can’t just damn act, they have to apply “the method” and study Stanislowsky for years whereas the female actors achieve the same result by just showing up to set and *acting*
No need to come for Babish now! 😀 He’s so lovely and just wants to share his love ov cooking with the world, particulary people who might be intimidated by more complex recipes. Such a lovely channel.
I have also had (and broken up with) this boyfriend.
I too have dated this dude (several times).
One of the things I love about my husband is how he genuinely listens to my interests even when they aren’t his. He can name characters in my favorite shows and books, can tell you plot points, etc. Because he listens when I talk.
Mine too! He has even developed an appreciation for Hermes silk scarves. God I love that man.
Funny I was going to say the same thing. One of the reasons I knew my husband was the one is because he always listens to me about my interests and will take the time to find things I will like to recommend or surprise me with. It makes me so happy that once we have children they’ll grow up with that same openess and thoughtfulness.
I have this same guy trying to get me on the hook now. It’s fascinating how he can ramble on & on about himself & when I interject something about myself, there’s an awkward pause, then right back to him.
I asked the last guy I dated, on his way out, “do you treat your friends this way?!” The idea that men have no control over themselves or their reactions, as they display keen social skills with other men at work & play, is ridiculous.
@MM@ Yes, it’s just the excuse they use when they don’t actually want to treat women as humans but rather something there for their enjoyment only. One of my most eye-opening realizations during my divorce was that my ex never really loved me (my hobbies, talents, interests etc.) but rather loved being married to me. He liked having an attractive wife with a career he could brag about and money he could spend, who would also manage the house so he could have his social life. Happy to say I learned my lesson and won’t fall in to a relationship like that again!
I started watching this a few weeks ago, I only got about three episodes in – I’ve read a lot of YA fantasy and this just seems to hit all the stereotypes, but maybe I should keep going if it diverges in the later episodes. Also for some reason I am having trouble understanding them, I don’t know if its the volume level or what, but I put on the subtitles and it made a huge difference.
I did buy the first book though and am going to read that but wanted to get through the season first since I started that already.
As to her point about what women and girls love -yes. There seems to be a sense of surprise that a show like Bridgerton did well. I remember a year or so ago when 365 came out on Netflix and was a huge hit, and a twitter friend and I were talking about how surprised the industry was – its like, yes, women like romance, and women like sex, and women like suspense, and women like fantasy, and women like pretty costumes, and women like movies where a woman gets to kick some butt – and you can make movies marketed to that and they will do really well because women like to watch movies! (not all of that stuff is in 365, I’m just saying in general lol).
It’s almost like an entire swath of the movie/tv industry missed how huge romance novels have been for the last 50 years.
That’s not saying that women ONLY want those things, sometimes we can just enjoy a good Arnold movie, but it’s definitely been the mindset that those things are “less than” and aren’t “real” art or whatever. Hunger Games was acceptable as being “mainstream” for some reason, but I imagine if they made A Court of Thorns and Roses into a movie, it would not be taken the same way.
I went on a reading binge over the pandemic and even delved into some YA. The author wrote several series based in the same fantasy world, and I actually think Shadow and Bone, etc. (the trilogy the Netflix show is based off of) is the weakest. You may enjoy the Six of Crows series she wrote, which involves the three thieves in the TV show…personally I thought it was far, far stronger and more entertaining. My main issue with the books is there is some downright Twilight esque unhealthy dynamics over the main character, her childhood friend slash love interest, and the villain who is fixated on the main character. That said, unhealthy dynamics aside the author is 100% correct in that entertainment geared towards women is unfairly derided and I’d even say there is plenty of problematic sh*t in entertainment that isn’t geared towards women that gets 1/100th of the scrutiny.
The Shadow and Bone trilogy is suuuuuuper cliché, but the Six of Crows duology is a friggin masterpiece! I liked the fact that they combined both buf if I had to choose, I’d keep the criminals and the darkling hahaaha
@Adris
This. I was surprised by how much I loved the Six of Crows books as I was pretty meh on Shadow and Bone. The world building and characters in Six of Crows is amazing.
The series definitely made Alina and her childhood love interest better, but my god they were annoying (and the latter so toxic and demeaning towards her powers, the YA equivalent of the type of man who hates that his girlfriend is more educated than him, etc.) in the books.
oh hm I had heard of Six of Crows but thought it was a completely separate trilogy from this one (like different universe etc.) I will definitely try those then.
And this post in general has inspired me to keep going with the series, maybe I’ll watch it while I’m on the bike today lol.
Leigh Bardugo has also written a standalone book set in the modern world which I really loved – The Ninth House – would definitely recommend. Also Melissa Caruso’s trilogy starting with The Tethered Mage.
I forgot that I had read four of these books (I read them when they first came out!) but was not surprised to see that I gave 5 stars to the Crows duology – heists are one of my favorite plots and it was super fun!
One of the things that impresses about Bardugo is that she has admitted that she made mistakes in the Shadow and Bone trilogy (they were her first), especially with the relationship between Mal and Alina and diversity. She actually encouraged the show to improve on the those parts of the book, love that she was willing to admit and fix those mistakes.
But the Six of Crows series is the superior series – it is sooo fantastic and the characters are absolutely the best. I love love love that series.
@becks… I was thinking the same as you because the first few episodes were just ok. It does get better as it moves forward. Also it’s worth it just to watch Ben Barnes. They do a flashback episode for his origin which is probably the best episode.
And because Ben has such charisma, I just can’t really root for the “good” guy. He just doesn’t compare sorry not sorry.
@nic – lol until this post I didn’t realize that the General was going to be a bad guy, I mean I figured he wasn’t the perfect hero but wasn’t sure where he fell on the good-bad spectrum, and now that I know I’m like….well….he’s still my favorite, lol. That’s part of the problem when they cast someone so gorgeous and charismatic in a role where we are supposed to root against them.
I am now halfway through episode 4 and I am starting to see where the pieces come together. I like hearing what LaurenNolanRyan said above, that the author thought she made some mistakes so fixed them in the show.
So next up I’ll read the books, and you all have convinced me to reread Persuasion…..my Goodreads “to read” list is apparently very driven by this site, ha.
I think it’s all to do with storytelling. I really love fantasy as a genre, especially those with a good romance (sub)plot. You can put all the tropes in it and I won’t mind but the story has to be good though. I feel that’s missing in a lot of those books. -I never got past the first few chapters of this book, but I will give the show a chance. I also never got past the first episode of Bridgerton but I plan on watching the spinoff show.
I burned through the tv series but cannot get into the book series at all. I like show Alina a lot more. I also adore a complex bad guy though, so the darkling is definitely doing it for me.
I tried to watch this and just couldn’t get into it. Got about an episode and a half in. It didn’t do any world-building at all (which IMHO is the best part of fantasy/sci-fi – not necessarily any “conflicts”) and just jumped into a complicated story. It was also just soooo cheeeeeesy.
Becks1, some older suggestions.
Daughter of Smoke and Bone
Monica Furlong books (Wisechild, Juniper)
Robin McKinley
The original fairy tale series (80s, 90s) with titles like Briar Rose (Jane Yolen)
Urban fantasies of Charles de Lint
Garth Nix Abhorsen series
Meredith Ann Pierce Darkangel trilogy
Vivian Van de Velde, Tanith Lee, Diane Duane, Diana Wynne Jones, Tanith Lee
And a newer series for younger (11+), the Morrigan Crow series
She’s right. Women get piled on when female-targeted media gets close to traditionally male-targeted media, sci fi and fantasy especially. I don’t think it’s something a lot of people are conscious of doing, I think it’s mostly subconscious and thanks to the patriarchy being deeply entrenched in our lives.
(Side note—as a romance novel fan, I’ve always found it interesting how much hate the romance genre gets, when it’s by far the best selling book genre by a wide margin. There’s clearly a disconnect there. People love the genre, but don’t want to admit it, because it’s associated with women.)
This. YouTuber Lindsay Ellis had a really good video about this a couple of years ago. It was about the extreme backlash to Twilight (she didn’t absolve Stephenie Meyer of the problematic things in the series, but she did discuss how people mocked it because it was a thing girls and women enjoyed).
And I’ve read romance novels for nearly 20 years now, and I’m so glad the culture is finally recognizing the power of the genre with series like Bridgerton.
It’s funny, because the first novel I consider SF is Frankenstein and this was written by Mary Shelley.
So, if one gender needs to be gatekeeped out of SF, it’s not women.
The earliest poet of whom we know the name is Enheduanna, who lived more than 4000 years ago.
First novel? Written by Murasaki Shikibu, a lady as well.
Despite all the efoorts made by men to restrict female artistry, women tend to invent whole new genres and ways of expression.
There are a lot of really good romance authors out there. I would put Lisa Kleypas, her early stuff especially, Sarah McLean, Eloise James as authors who tend to not be too formulaic.
I can’t defend Twilight though. The first book was fine, but then it just got bad. I was used to reading Anne Rice as a teen so I thought that these vampires were just boring.
Twilight was just bad, especially after the first book, but my problem with a lot of YA series is that I think the authors can’t always figure out how to end them or where to go with them. So you have a really great first book with a strong premise, and then it kind of flounders, especially if the series ends up being longer than the author anticipated, or if the author is under pressure to keep writing more books and to create more series out of the same universe. I think that sort of happened with Twilight – I really would hate to believe that Renesme was in her plan all along.
(I’m saying YA bc thats the fantasy I usually read, happy to hear other recommendations.)
I wanted to throw that fourth book against the wall because it was sooo bad. And Renesme was one of the reasons. It’s also why I shudder when people suggest Doriana as a name for baby montecito. .
Julia Quinn said something similar about historical romance being derided because it’s about women, for women, written by women. The reason I read so much is because it’s felt like most television and movies are dominated by masculine stories of violence. And at least Netflix has figured out that you need women behind the scenes to create content that speaks to women because so often men ruin perfectly good scripts with their bias. Excited to put my book down and check this show out.
I’m 49 and watched this in 2 days. It was very good. Saw the trailer and thought, wow this is right up my ally!
Can’t wait for the 2nd season.
I’m also an avid boy band lover. Going right back to the 80s when I was in love with NKOTB. In my 20s I was at a BSB concert. I like what I like, I say p@ss of to all the haters.
Now I could not get into the Twilight series at all. 🙂
@Rachel, me too.
I like BTS a lot, and some guys really hate them (probably partly because they are not white as well, because there has been a severe racist hatedom).
Once upon a time, I would have been ashamed of liking a guy group, but now I happily tell everyone I’m a fan. They have a lot to say in their music and they have stood up for vulnerable groups many times themselves, both with words and opening their wallets.
The least I can do is support.
I really loved this show but didn’t feel the chemistry at all between Alina and Ben Barnes. Ben Barnes brought the ultimate Darkling hotness and I felt like Alina was quite asexual. I guess she’s meant to be young and naive but I don’t know, I just didn’t feel it AT all.
Hmm I haven’t watched it yet but want to give it a try. There’s a new romance movie my sister wants to see called finding you. We’re debating going into a theater. She wants to but now I’m not sure, esp if not all wearing a mask. But it’s tempting. Overall though I can wait to stream.
She’s not wrong. Everything having to do with women is still mocked, but the misogynists have gotten more clever in how they do it. Think how much we lose when, still, only one viewpoint (White! Male! Wealthy!) is how most stuff looks.
Shadow and Bone is a bit clichè and the story a bit cheesy, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, or anything wrong with enjoying this type of fiction. I binge-watched the whole first season on Netflix, it was light, uncomplicated, and fun, I cannot wait for the second.
I wonder how much of that is a function of its being YA.
I think a huge part of it is that it’s YA. I binged the books and loved them, but it’s clear that they are written for younger people than I am and that’s totally okay. I love recommending them to students.
I was all in for the series. Can’t wait for season two, but like someone said above, Alina is a bit dry. It’s such a nuanced character with footholds in extremely diverse environments, yet there’s no ‘life’ in her. Barns has it. She doesn’t. Which ironically underscores the entire message she’s trying to make.
Try the Six of Crows and Rule of Wolves, oh and Rokshana Hadidi and her series, you might like them if you like this series. 🙂
I’ve collected Hello Kitty/Sanrio stuff since I was very young (my eldest brother’s wife is Japanese, and she started my collection by giving me things that had belonged to her, and bringing new things back whenever she went to visit her family, so it’s not just stuff you can buy at Target. I’ve got some pretty rare things!). When I was in college, I was dating a guy and told him about my collection. He rolled his eyes and said I needed to grow up. While we were sitting in his room full of Star Wars toys and Marvel shit.
Yeah, I’d say Leigh Bardugo is right.
Is that why your avatar is Retsuko? I effing love the anime!
Yes! She’s the Sanrio character I most identify with. Well, her and Gudetama the Lazy Egg.
I love Keroppi, but I so seldom find merch with his character!
Is there a male equivalent to chick lit or chick flick? “Dude flicks” are the norm.
The action genre, specifically westerns and spy focused, are dude lit. Tom Clancy’s books and Louis L’Amour…all dude lit.
I love a good spy book, and there are really good ones within the genre and there are really, really cliched ones. The really cliched ones all feature forms of author self insert, and usually a really hot very young female who falls for the older (middle aged) not at all hot protagonist. But, oh no! The hot young female turns out to be a spy/bad guy and the middle aged guy is heartbroken at her betrayal. But wait! In the end, the really hot young female is revealed to not actually be a bad guy, just some really young hot girl who honestly fell for the middle aged guy. But, woe is he, because she’s either dead or exiled somewhere and now hates him, so the middle aged guy heads back to his middle aged boring wife that he tolerates, and everyone puts on a nice public face but behind closed doors she knows what’s up and he mourns for the hot young girl in quiet dignity. Oh, and somehow he saves the world.
The really good ones sometimes don’t fall into that at all. Some do, but it’s not usually eye rolling blatant. Also, I have nothing against the cliches really, because all genres have them.
“The action genre, specifically westerns and spy focused, are dude lit. Tom Clancy’s books and Louis L’Amour…all dude lit.”
I have a friend who has internalized the idea that dude lit is basically the default. She doesn’t like that genre specifically but gives it way more respect than she gives anything female adjacent. It’s taken me years to see that this friend, who appears as a liberal, sensible woman, has deeply internalized misogyny. It really aches because there’s no way to change this as they’ll claim “that’s just how they feel.” I wonder how it is that so many people just feel like women’s stuff is less.
@Dee they are called “dick flicks”
It used to bug me so much how many men will wax poetic about the movie Field of Dreams because you know if it was about a woman and her dead mother it would have been dismissed as a “chick flick.” Nothing against the movie, it was just my first independent insight into how differently things are treated when they’re about men versus when they’re about women.
I am a shallow woman and will admit to only clicking on the link cause of Ben Barnes 🙁
I’ve seen this on my Netflix stream but didn’t pay any attention to it as it initially struck me as being very similar to the Mortal Instruments saga – is it? I don’t know much about the plot and would you recommend it?
Did you read the MI books or just that awful movie lol. There are definitely some similarities in terms of the characters (heroine has a best guy friend, is drawn into a magical world when she realizes she has special powers she never knew about, there’s a handsome magic-person in that world, etc.) But the worldbuilding here seems very different to me so far. But like I said I’m only three episodes in.
I read the books first and enjoyed them – couldn’t get past the first 10 mins of the TV series (the actress who played Clary was awful) and only watched the movie cause i was bored (and JRM was shirtless for most of it). LOL
I might try the first ep and see how it goes.
I think Magicians is a bit more like Mortal Instruments. Shadow and Bone has a less trope’ish feel in light of some predictable line items. Plus it’s not as glossy which I really like. Gloss leads to a more superficial engagement, but Shadow skirts western fantasy with some decent diversity and adversities.
I didn’t read the books, but started paying attention to the series (my husband started watching it) because I spotted Ben B. Such a beautiful man.
True, whether it be music, shows, movies it’s always the same.
And it needs to be perfect too. Anything a bit campy or not 100% perfect gets talked about as if it’s greatest offense to art, if it’s mostly women enjoying it. This even when it’s just meant to be enjoyed without it even pretending to be highbrow.
This while men consume much trashier media ALL THE TIME, but then it’s “just innocent entertainment” or “for fun”, and they don’t want to hear any criticism.
Yeah. Mr Hench is a kind man but boy is he entrenched in the view of the world that says ‘if men like it = good/if women like it = fluffy and not serious’. I get a LOT of sh*t for reading this site – from a man who spends his life on Twitter. I also love fantasy novels but I read those without telling him because I can’t be bothered to put up with the mockery. Ironic given I’m the one with a masters in English literature (insert rolling eye emoji). Leigh has expressed it perfectly here.
I would mock him right back.
Just because he was told that his taste is the superior one doesn’t mean it is. I always lose respect for men who are like that.
Respect for you and your masters degree, though.
I absolutely loved the show Shadow and Bone, it’s been awhile since I’ve had a fantasy show grip me so much. Probably not had one like that since the early seasons of Game of Thrones before it went past the books. I’ve watched a lot of fantasy on Netflix like Cursed, The Winx Saga, The Magicians (which I gave up on), but none of them were that great and pretty weak. I haven’t read the books. When I’m in a bookstore next time, I might pick up the series. From everything I’ve read is that Mal is very annoying and dismissive to Alina in the books and Alina is kind of an idiot, but Alina being senseless makes sense. Teenagers have so much going on and are trying to figure out their identity. It seems Mal brings her down instead of raising her up. In the show, I didn’t see that. I saw two people fiercely loyal to each other bringing out the best in each other. Maybe that’ll change but I quite liked the actor playing Mal. But Ben Barnes as the Darkling–whoever was in charge of that casting choice deserves a huge raise. He was amazing. That character is so fascinating and I’ve never quite rooted for a baddie like I have for the Darkling.
And I never really thought about it but yes, women and teen girls are often the driving force behind pop culture. Justin Bieber, True Blood, the Beatles, Bridgerton, Outlander, and all the other series name dropped here became popular due to women consuming content and driving sales.
The showrunners, actors and Bardugo herself have talked a lot about how they tried to improve the relationship between Mal and Alina from what it was in the books. I am glad to see it because that was one of the main issues with my enjoyment of the book series.
Mal and Alina are VASTLY improved from the book, but my biggest problem with the characters now is…what’s the story for them? Like, what’s possibly holding them back from being together? They took away pretty much all of Mal’s major flaws and reservations about Alina’s power in the book that it sort of puts us in the position of wondering why things hadn’t sparked between them earlier. If you’re suggesting they already love each other, and they fought so hard to get back to each other, what was stopping them from becoming more than friends? Especially considering you showed us that she felt bold enough to be sexually assertive with Aleksander, which was a significant reversal from the book where the Darkling is more aggressive, so that’s kind of…well, the implications there aren’t great lol.
So many great points in the above posts. As a side note to the capitalism aspect….I’m reading We Should All Be Millionaires by Rachel Rodgers and it absolutely eye opening as to how the work women do (especially BIPOC women) is degraded so that the work men do can be elevated. Traditionally, women are better at work and building businesses but men are the ones promoted and/or given the venture capital.
It also explains that when men get rich they buy toys but when women get rich they use a large portion of their wealth to help other women and their community.
I highly recommend it.
Back to the topic at hand…a few days ago I told a man I write romance novels and plan to sell them online.
Me: I’m writing romance novels to sell online.
Him, laughing: Like those books with shirtless men and smut???
Me: Yes!
Him: But why? Those are nothing but a mindless waste of time.
Me: Romance and sex are not mindless wastes of time, they are the reason most people do the things they do with regard to relationships. Also, if more men read romance novels they would understand women better and be more likely to find happy, healthy relationships. That would cause domestic violence to plunge and make the world safer for women and children.
Him:
Me:
Him: Well, that’s your opinion.
Ugh.
Is Ben Barnes still Tumblr’s boyfriend? I swear he was fancast for ever lead male fantasy role .
Men have a fantasy genre, too. It’s called professional sports. And it’s sanctioned and worshipped and revered with non-stop prime time news coverage, billions of dollars in support, and laudatory language that would make even the most shameless narcissist blush. Because it elevates boys and their limited range of abilities, and because it excludes girls.
they even have pretend teams with players they “draft,” and spend lots of time and money on pretend teams.
Then there are the dudes buying action figures. You know, kids toys. And no, they aren’t “investments.” A star wars toy from the 1970s or 1980s is special because we all played with our star wars toys then and so to have one in pristine condition is rare. A “Force Awakens” toy or even a star wars reissue isn’t going to gain value because there are lots and lots of people collecting them now. (And I love star wars, or did before the toxic dudebros took over. now I just like the films). Supply and demand and all. But don’t tell a 40 year old guy with a room full of boxed toys that.
Not sure if this was mentioned but she wrote her first adult fiction book called Ninth House and I absolutely loved every second of it. Highly recommend. Leigh Bardugo is the best!!
Yes! I just mentioned that above too – really loved. Am hoping she will write a sequel to it.
I loved Ninth House, really lost myself in it and read it twice, right in a row. Soooo good.
I really like the show so far, but I can’t get behind Ben Barnes: I’m sure he’s a lovely human being IRL, but looks-wise I’m too reminded of Don Trump Jr. Now I can’t unsee it and I’m just slightly repulsed.
Talent-wise, I’m not sure what the deal is with him, but he was decidedly unimpressive in Easy Virtue and Dorian Gray (yeesh!) He doesn’t have enough star power/acting ability to really kick out the jams. If you can’t pull off Dorian, that’s a bad sign.
That surprises me a little because my first exposure to him was “The Punisher” playing Billy Russo and he was excellent in that. I was really impressed by the performance (and he was by no means surrounded by lessers), and he’s definitely one of the biggest stand-outs in Shadow and Bone for most people, even among a fairly talented cast. Maybe he just needs the right character/script?
Veronica S.–could be that he did.
Even though I had to read-up on the storyline, because I did have some trouble getting into the first two episodes, I really enjoyed the series. To me, the female character I found most compelling was Inej really.
Leigh Bardugo said this really well and I absolutely agree. I’m a sci-fi fan and I wish there were more really good love stories featured in that genre in general. For most men, it’s the tough guy, the action, the weapon gimmicks, and the futuristic ships they want. Asking for real romance instead of the standard hot woman for erotic purposes would be so unmanly and entail instant ridicule.
And that sentiment is encompassing. Even marriage is something that is linked to what mostly women want, right? And men mocking, complaining, and making disparaging remarks disguised as jokes about married life seems common and socially accepted in many western societies.
In movies, they always show elderly widows are clucking around widowers. In real life , it seems women are just finally relaxing and enjoying the freedom of not having to take care of/put up with men. They don’t have any intention of putting up with men again. In movies, they just go crazy over a new widower, what a bunch of brainwashing bullsh*t. Maybe for financial or codependent issues, otherwise I don’t see it.
I read the books and watched the show. For me – I preferred the show over the books as it addressed many of the problematic parts of the book especially re Alina and Mal’s etc. I loved the cast of diverse newcomers and enjoyed it as much as The Witcher.
I also agree with Leah and her assessment. Men and the media always view anything liked by women and girls as less than. Like many have said – it is automatic deemed as less worthy/cool/important. Like the continued stereotype of BTS fans (I am a fan) aka – Army – as obsessive teenage and girls. When it is false – plenty of adults both male and females are fans. How else they became the biggest group in the world. But back to this series – I hope they confirm season 2 soon!
My 14-year-old son accidentally outed himself as a BTS fan to his buddies because he was humming ON while playing Call of Duty. They were surprisingly tolerant of his BTS leanings, and my kid gave them a playlist to bring them over to the dark side. BTS (along with bingewatching “Evil” and “The Queen’s Gambit”) are the only parent-child bonds that have kept us from killing each other during the pandemic — even if we don’t have the same bias.
Malificent – aw thanks for sharing and I’m so happy to hear that your son’s friends were accepting. My friends aren’t so understanding but it’s OK. I knew of BTS since 2017 but let my own biased judgement kept me from being a fan. When the pandemic came, I was looking for new music and decided to give them a chance by judging for myself. Their talent, artistry, devotion to their craft, humor, and humbleness won me over. They have also helped me bond and de-stress with my two sisters as well. I’ve gain a lot more from being a fan and learn new things because of them. I’ve let go of what other people think about them or me being a fan – and just enjoy it all and be happy.
I loved the Six of Crows duology. I’m so happy that they were able to incorporate these characters into the Shadow and Bone show. I don’t think I would’ve enjoyed it as much if my crows weren’t included. I’m also super happy with the casting choices for all the main actors, more specifically for the crows. Ben Barnes has never disappointed me in anything that I’ve seen him in. He is talented.
I read the books a few years ago and can barely remember any of the details but it started coming back to me when I watched the series. I’m only a few episodes in but it’s nice to see Ben Barnes has lost none of his hotness since the Narnia movies. I’m 100 percent down for chick escapist shows with hot guys. Bring it on.
Also, I wish they’d cast Ben Barnes as Anthony Bridgerton. I’d be a lot more excited about the rest of the series if the guys in it were hotter. (But it’s hard to live up to the Duke of Hastings.)
My husband loves fantasy. He hasn’t read these books, but is big on Game of Thrones and Lord of the Rings. He is the one who found this series on Netflix and we both loved it. He’s into The Witcher too, would walk around singing that song lol. Neither one of us are fans of Twilight though, but as I said, he’s a big fantasy fan.
The Darkling is crazy hot. That’s all.
Ben Barnes is plays an amazing, nuanced, dangerous and scary sexy villain in the Punisher . Had no idea he could act until I saw him in that. I suspect that makes more use of his talent than this project does , but hopefully he gets more opportunities as time goes on
my husband loved S&B.I’m lucky my husband loves these stories and watches them happily. Got him REALLY into Good girls and now he likes to colleCT a few eps to binge on hulu. When Acotar is finally done he’s gonna watch that one too. Since Hulu didn’t do a good job on their pilot script of Throne of glass, maybe Netflix could do it?? Sarah got back the rights and it is a worthy series that has a following…my husband was disappointed when that one fell threw, he heard all about the series from me and was eager to see it played out on a screen since he isn’t a aig book reader.
I enjoyed Shadow & Bone but I’m tired of this reluctant and scared main female character who doesn’t want to own her power. I want to see a main female character who was raised to be confident and sure of herself. As sure of herself as her male counterparts. This self-doubt should not be modeled and I really dislike that this is the background of the main character. If we want the future females to be confident then portray them to be confident.
I didn’t like the books for the same reason you’re describing. Just a warning—I hate, hated the ending of the books. I hope they don’t keep it the same, but I suspect they will.
Twilight was awful in terms of writing but her story telling and concept intrigued me. I really didn’t see anything that problematic about the damn book tbh, save for the Native American disrespect.
Feminism is about choice and doing what is right for you, not what the collective thinks is right. And in my mind Bella did what was best for HER despite a bunch of dudes jockeying for her attention and love.
For basic bitches everywhere, Bella did that. And that was the whole point. We like to be the heroine too and get the good guy.
I think the Shadow and Bone author makes a great point and women sometimes perpetuate this amongst each other sometimes in order to fit in with the boys or be anti for shits and giggles.
More men need to get over themselves. My husband is gloriously secure in his masculinity and also loves everything fantasy and scifi. He got totally into Shadow and Bone with me. Did he care that the books were written by a woman? Nah. He was into it for the world, the magic, and the plot. That there were “girly” themes went straight over his head, I think. Or he doesn’t care. Or he enjoys love triangles. He seemed to think Alina’s romantic flip flopping was funny? I can’t tell, but he was super into that show, maybe more than me. I should see if I can get him into The Vampire Diaries next. LOL
You are speaking my language. I am a bit off topic, but I recommend adding A Discovery of Witches, books first, then show. Matthew Goode….
Hmmm, I have mixed feelings about her statement as somebody who enjoys fantasy because there’s two things at work here for me in terms of the derision aimed at it. Fantasy and scifi almost used to be predominated written by men and has only really opened up to women in the last few decades, but even then, it has never been a respected genre unless you were one of the major names like Tolkien or Le Guin. So some of that is just general literary snobbery than pure sexism. On top of that, a lot of the mainstream emerging fantasy genre driven by women tends to be Young Adult, which is….a shift I’m not entirely thrilled about because I find the genre incredibly infantilizing sometimes. I’m an adult woman, y’all. I want my characters to behave like adults and do things like have sex and make questionably ethical decisions. So THAT change I can see gaining some derision because frankly some of the stuff that winds up in female-centric YA is pretty insidiously sexist and reductive.
Shadow and Bone is a mixed bag. There are, frankly, much better writers in the genre, and I was very surprised when they picked this one to adapt considering it’s quality is pretty uneven across the board and really dives after the first book. The Crows series is much, much better, so I got into the series because of their decision to combine the two series, but I was also hoping they’d use the opportunity to correct the completely insane and reductive character trajectory of the Darkling. I was pretty disappointed when I found it seemed to be heading in the same direction, and unsurprisingly, the narrative quality fell about mid-way around episode 7 for me when they stuck to the book instead of diverging a little. (Even more mind-boggling in this case since the made the character even MORE sympathetic than he was in the book.) I’m settling myself on hoping they diverge decently enough in the next season, if at least for the sake of not wasting Ben Barnes as a talent by going in the boring direction the books did with his character…or Jessie Mei Li for that matter. I wouldn’t mind some significantly changes to the trajectory of Alina, either.
Oh you made many good points that I didn’t think of re the history of the genre being set-up for men per tradition. I also read lots of fantasy and sci-fi and I agree with you that it’s a shame that many new ones books by women are targeting the YA market or the ones for adult women veer into the urban fantasy romance/smut genre. One trend that I do see and love is the translation of more fantasy/sci-fi novels from other countries/languages into English. I’m reading Christelle Dabos’ Mirror Visitor series – translated from French and it’s a very interesting take re the girl coming out of her shell and coming of age story with classic story feel. For me, I am lucky that I can access the Asian fantasy writers and there are many great female authors who write books for women with more grown-up stories – combining fantasy, politics, and great story telling (there’s good pan-Asia cross translations too). But they don’t get translated into English – maybe it will come in the future.
I’m an adult woman too and I enjoy the YA fantasy series, for the most part! They still have sex lol. And YA fantasy is taking off because it sells, which goes back to her point about how much power women have over culture. (I like YA books because they are easy mindless reads for me, but I don’t really feel the need to apologize for reading them either.)
at any rate, I took her comment to be about more than just the fantasy genre. She was making the broader point that women have tremendous power and influence over what becomes popular and that often still gets derided or overlooked. The romance genre, as a whole, has been derided way more than fantasy ever has been, even though hundreds of millions of romance novels are sold each year. Even authors like Austen are considered “girly;” my brothers went to an all-boys high school and I’m not sure they ever read an Austen, whereas I read three during my high school years (all girls.) Above I talked about the movie “365” on Netflix and how when it came out, there were articles written about what a success it was and the authors seemed to be scratching their heads – “what is the appeal of this movie?” Like there was a sense of surprise that women enjoyed it and did not feel the need to apologize for it and were going to consume it, so to speak.
Nora Roberts books are insanely popular but her adaptations always get relegated to bad Lifetime movies (and honestly at this point her books are so formulaic that maybe that’s what they deserve, lol, but 10-15 years ago or so that wasn’t the case) – even when a bestselling book by a man gets snapped up for a movie adaptation immediately. There’s an attitude that an author like Julia Quinn “just” writes romance novels and therefore should not be taken as seriously as an author who writes……anything else.
Oh, I agree with her fundamental point overall. I was just pointing out that when you write genre, the respect has never actually been there to begin with, so women are working up against multiple levels of ostracism there. The last twenty years has been a huge flip in terms of bringing comics/fantasy/scifi to the mainstream forefront when before it was really considered nerdy or niche genre work. Romance is, to me, a better representative of her point because it’s always been female dominated and, despite being the single best selling genre, is given no mainstream recognition as such.
My biggest problem with sex and romance in YA novels is how often it exists inversely proportional to the amount of violence the protagonists encounter or commit, and more often because I find a startling amount of it gets tied into Christian purity ideals. They’re always so afraid to tell young women that sex will not define their lives so significantly as society pretends. Shadow and Bone is actually a major culprit in this regard. All of Alina’s more intense sexual feelings are tied up in the Darkling, associated with her darkness, with her constantly browbeaten by the narrative for having had those feelings in the first place, while her relationship with Mal is chaste and limited until, of course, they marry at the end, not that we get any of their happily ever after. I’m hoping S2 course corrects some of that by letting Archie Reneaux and Jessie Mei Li explore more of Mal and Alina’s relationship on screen because it’s definitely a problem to me to have Ben Barnes having really obvious chemistry with the actress and then turning around and not delivering that passion with the guy she’s actually going to end up with. Like…what kind of lesson are girls going to take away from that lol?