Did Prince Harry & Meghan really reject the ‘Dumbarton’ title for Archie?

Prince Harry and Ms. Meghan Markle visits Edinburgh

In the lead-up to Prince Harry’s wedding to then-Meghan Markle, there was a ton of speculation about their titles and whether the Queen would give Harry a ducal title or something “lesser,” like an earldom. I remember before the wedding, the “Sussex” ducal title was suggested and there were a few royal historians who pish-poshed the idea of the Queen dusting off that particular title because it was too SusSEXY. Well, we know how that turned out. In addition to the Sussex titles in England, Harry and Meghan were made the Earl and Countess of Dumbarton in Scotland and Baron and Baroness Kilkeel in Northern Ireland.

When Meghan was pregnant with Archie, there were apparently widespread conversations with courtiers, with Prince Charles and with various advisors about how the Sussex child (then known as Polo Baby) should be titled or styled. I think it’s clear that Harry and Meghan were absolutely being steered away from “choosing” to give Archie any kind of title or royal style, and Charles has made it clear that he plans for his mixed-race grandchildren to never receive any kind of royal styling or prince/princess titles. At the time (2019) the emphasis was on how Harry and Meghan “chose” not to give Archie a title. But… I definitely would like a fuller accounting on all of that. Now the Telegraph (via The Sun) claims that Harry & Meghan opted out of giving Archie one particular title: the Dumbarton title.

Meghan Markle and Prince Harry reportedly rejected an Earl title for Archie because it contained the word “dumb”. The Duke and Duchess of Sussex decided against the title Earl of Dumbarton for their son because they allegedly feared it would attract unfortunate nicknames. The couple are currently living in the US, where the word dumb is commonly used as slang for stupid.

A source told The Telegraph: “They didn’t like the idea of Archie being called the Earl of Dumbarton because it began with the word ‘dumb’ [and] they were worried about how that might look.”

Another insider added: “It wasn’t just Meghan who pointed out the potential pitfalls, it also bothered Harry.”

Dumbarton’s MSP Jackie Baillie last night laughed off the rejection, tweeting that she was reflecting on the ‘low blow’ and will issue a statement in the morning. Unlike Prince William’s children – Prince George, Princess Charlotte and Prince Louis – Archie doesn’t have any royal title. Instead he goes by his full name Archie Harrison Mountbatten-Windsor. It was previously thought his parents didn’t want him to have a title to allow him to lead a more “normal” life.

The Earl of Dumbarton title was first created in 1675 but became extinct in 1749 when Lord Dumbarton’s only son died. It was recreated in the UK Peerage by the Queen as one of the two subsidiary titles for her grandson Harry, who became Duke of Sussex when he married Meghan in May 2018. We reported in March how Harry could have given Archie the courtesy title of Earl of Dumbarton – but chose not to.

[From The Sun]

First of all, “The couple are currently living in the US, where the word dumb is commonly used as slang for stupid.” Do British people not say “dumb”? Is that not a word in jolly olde Dusty Saltine Isle? As for this whole story… the point of this dipsh-ttery is to make Meghan and Harry sound like they’re being rude to Scotland and like they planned their move to America (the only country which uses the word “dumb” apparently) in early 2019. As I said, I would absolutely appreciate a fuller accounting of the conversations happening with and around Harry and Meghan during her first pregnancy. My guess is that it was never as simple as “H&M were told they could use the Dumbarton title for Archie and they rejected it because they didn’t like the word!” I don’t even think Scottish-specific titles work that way.

archie harry2

Photos courtesy of social media, Backgrid, Avalon Red.

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125 Responses to “Did Prince Harry & Meghan really reject the ‘Dumbarton’ title for Archie?”

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  1. sandy says:

    this article is dumb. truly I hope they issue another statement saying so.

    • PEARL GREY says:

      CamiLiar Tominey hyped up this nonsense “exclusive” hours after she was trending in the UK, US, Canada, Italy and elsewhere for widely being suspected of fabricating a fake death threat against herself and blaming it on Meghan and Harry’s fans. Of course this story is just yet another attempt to keep the Sussexes in negative headlines.

      And JFYI, some people in the UK do say “dumb”, so this new claim is even more nonsensical.

      • Over it says:

        Please tell us more

      • Snuffles says:

        Well, by the time I woke up yesterday morning, shit was in full swing, so I just sat back and watched.

        Sussex Squad decided to trend #CamillaTomineyIsaLiar , because she is. But I think her latest lie claiming Meghan said Archie can read, but what Meghan said was that Archie likes to be READ TO.

        Anyhoo, Sussex Squad swarmed Beyhive style. Camila fronted like she didn’t care but she started reporting Squad members to Twitter. Then she claimed one of us sent a death threat to her children. Which the Squad called her bluff on and reported the threat to the police themselves (and the local police Twitter account responded) and then they looked into the email from which the threat allegedly came from, and quickly proved that it was a fake email. Which Yahoo customer service also confirmed on their Twitter account.

        It was all pretty bananas.

      • Agreatreckoning says:

        @PEARL GREY, I replied on a different thread yesterday when someone brought the Tominey situation up. So I spent sometime searching and learned that one doesn’t have to be on twitter-I’m not- or click on a twitter link to read twitter. The thing CT posted is questionable. When someone contacts our business through the website submission form, what we receive, doesn’t look like what CT was showing (our site may handle things differently?) What she was showing looks like the initial submission form and didn’t reflect anything to do with H & M. But, CT chose to put it out that way. My belief is that this was a Machiavellian maneuver to counteract refinery29′s recent ant-Meghan undercover story. CT’s now claimed to have reported it to the police. Wonder if she’ll give updates on the “investigation”.

        The title of Earl of Dumbarton was given to Harry. He didn’t reject it then that I know of..so, yea, it seems like someone is grasping for straws to attack H & M. The BM seems to have the world’s largest bale of straw to grasp from.

    • Becks1 says:

      This is stupid – no one who is actually close to the Sussexes is running to the telegraph. And honestly, does anyone really care why H&M chose not to use Earl of Dumbarton for Archie?

      • Demi says:

        From my understanding, they can only use such titles while in Scotland on official tours.. they didn’t go there on official tours and never took Archie there. Harry already holds the title Earl of Dumbarton the article is another lie by Camilla Toeminy even her fellow royal reports called her BS on Twitter.

    • Elizabeth Regina says:

      The article came out to cover up for two things.
      1. the fact that royal spending increased during a PANDEMIC, and the report included 47 helicopter rides at a cost of almost a million dollars.
      2. the fact that the queen is traveling to Scotland to clean up after Cain Joffrey the lesser and Mumbles the Unable of Keen.

    • Anne Marie says:

      “EXCLUSIVE: The Duke and Duchess of Sussex rejected the title Earl of Dumbarton for their son Archie because it contained the word “dumb”, it has emerged…from our a**es.”

      There, fixed it for ya. And yes, as mentioned in other comments, this “exclusive” is to cover up all the shi*t that’s being revealed by the the release of the financial report. But no outrage there, right?

    • BooyahB!tches says:

      Here’s the bottom line: the title is a “gift” for Archie, and since it’s a Scottish title, it’s secondary…never, ever, ever would Archie be known as the Duke of Dumbarton. NEVER. When he’s older and another title is offered, he may or may not take it. But it’s like asking why H&M don’t “style” themselves as the Baron and Baronness of some Irish place. Because IT’S SECONDARY. The Saltines are two things: too stupid to work that out, and too angry, bitter, and spewy to accept it!!

  2. Wiglet Watcher says:

    Waiting for Meg to have her lawyers issue a request for those receipts. Because no way that happened.

  3. Ginger says:

    This is completely ridiculous. And also just very insulting. The UK media is awful.

    • Elizabeth Regina says:

      To be honest it does not surprise me. The media are in full frenzy and the more the others screw up the more they will attack the Sussexes. Luckily our faves are miles away and unbothered.

    • taris says:

      so the sussexes ‘rejected’ a title given on their wedding day (in 2018):
      •for a child they didn’t have yet (born in 2019), and to whom we were told only a few days ago a title was going to be denied anyway
      •based on the meaning of a word in a country they didn’t live in (they moved in 2020)

      *makes sense*

  4. Mia says:

    What a …dumb…exclusive for the telegraph lol. They just wanted security for their kid.

    Doesn’t ‘dumb’ in the UK mean speechless? Like “struck dumb” and “deaf and dumb”. At least that’s my impression from reading Agatha Christie.

    • Jane says:

      Yes, so if you want to get specific and technical about it, it doesn’t just mean ‘stupid’, it’s actually ableist and a slur on people with speech impairments.

    • Humbugged says:

      Dum means rock in gaelic

  5. Janey says:

    We don’t use “dumb”, my son does due to a liking of American youtube videos. We tend to use stupid, idiotic, etc. (more frequently than ever before since the start of the pandemic)

    I hope there is a statement issued about this from H&M, honestly who thinks this stuff up?

    • Over it says:

      Janey , the British media is stupid and if the idiotic people who read these trash sad excuse for papers buy into this crap, well then they are just dumb as F . Please note I am definitely not referring to you or sensible brits

  6. RoyalBlue says:

    this is yet again another stick to beat the Sussexes with. the courtiers are so abusive and unrepentantly cruel.

  7. S808 says:

    This article is dumb and the timing is questionable. The volume of rehashed stories is weird. Something is happening

  8. Esme says:

    Well this stupid article now makes sense since the Queen, William and Anne are “touring”
    Scotland next week. They just couldn’t resist taking a dig at Harry before the Royal “who never put a foot wrong” come to visit to show all the Scots how much they love them.

    • equality says:

      Yeah. This is getting called out as the reason on Twitter. And notice William is going without Kate.

    • Digital Unicorn says:

      What has Scotland done to deserve all these visits from Cain?!?!

      Am telling you – he has a thistle bush that needs trimming.

      • Becks1 says:

        It’s interesting, right? I feel like in the before times, W&K would go maybe once a year? (excluding Balmoral) and when they were at balmoral, we never saw them make any appearances – unlike the queen who usually is at the highland games*, makes appearances during Holyrood Week, and THEN goes off to Balmoral for two months. So she at least uses the time in Scotland to do some work and then disappears. Will and Kate dont do that. So for William to be going twice in the course of….6 weeks? feels a little weird to me.

        *I don’t know if that’s the official name so sorry in advance if I’m wrong, but you know those events we always see the royals at, in kilts etc., the Queen and Charles usually actually look happy

      • Lucky Charm says:

        Perhaps a lovely Heather bush somewhere, lol!

    • windyriver says:

      It’s the typical Holyrood Week coming up. IIRC, everything was cancelled last year due to the pandemic. But in 2019, along with TQ were Anne, Edward (don’t think Sophie was there), and – Andrew. So presumably Will is going in place of Andrew, who I’m sure is keeping the lowest of low profiles at this point in time..


  9. BayTampaBay says:

    “H&M were told they could use the Dumbarton title for Archie and they rejected it because they didn’t like the word!”

    It does not work that way. Harry was given three titles by QEII, Duke of Sussex (English), Earl of Dumbarton (Scottish) and Baron Kilkeel (Northern Irish).

    The eldest son (Archie) of the Duke of Sussex can use either subsidiary title (Earl of Dumbarton or Baron Kilkeel) with Harry’s permission as a courtesy hence the term “Courtesy Title”. The grandson (Archie’s son,yet to be born) of the Duke of Sussex, with Harry’s permission, may use subsidiary title Baron Kilkeel as a courtesy .

    Harry (and Meghan) choose NOT to use Earl of Dumbarton as a “Courtesy Title” for Archie. This was the choice of Harry, as the title holder, not QEII.

    • TeamMeg says:

      I wonder if Harry was ever teased for his Dumbarton title and didn’t want Archie to suffer the same?

      • Becks1 says:

        He didnt have his dumbarton title until he got married. he was “just” HRH prince harry of wales.

      • Humbugged says:

        Why its Gaellic work for rock as in Edinburgh’s real name is Dunedin

      • BayTampaBay says:

        @Humbugged – Thanks for that tidbit. Please tell us more about Gaellic.

        So Dumbarton means “work for work”?

        Is this “work for rock” as in work at a stone quarry?

      • Humbugged says:

        Fort of the Britains is what it translates as(Dùn Breatainn) . So Dumbarton sits on a volanic plug the same as Edinburgh (which has its name changed from Dun Èideann) when the Northumberland took over and added the burgh .Both have castles

        Gaelic is similar to Irish with world changes .We get BBC Alba in Britain

      • Humbugged says:

        You have a Dunedin near you its the Blue Jays training camp which is funny as they have there own Dunedin an hour outside it

        Smaller population speaking it as they were mostly cleared


      • BayTampaBay says:

        I have been to Dunedin, Florida many many times. They have lots of good waterfront bars with bands on the weekends. It is very bohemian and a lot of fun.

  10. Woke says:

    I can understand the logic of if he isn’t going to be prince, if he’s not going to have security why burden him with a title ? I don’t think it had anything to do with the word dumb.

    • Becks1 says:

      This is exactly what I think it was. When they were told he would never be HRH, they just decided to hell with it and made him Master Archie.

      • Saucy&Sassy says:

        Becks1, or we could be assuming they had a choice. Clearly, the men in grey had total control of that birth certificate. So, who knows what’s true.

  11. Ginkas says:

    Interesting that H&M are being admonished daily for leaking private conversations to the press when every day, a story like this turns up that provides the details of their previously unreported private conversations. Just another example of why they left the UK and its one-sided media coverage.

  12. lanne says:

    This is…really stupid. The RF and BM are really scraping the bottom of the barrel. If this is all they have to hold over their heads, then maybe an end point is in sight. They have no info about the Sussexes. They have no access to info. They will forever be on the outside while the American and global media benefit from the attention. They have pissed away their biggest money-making and image making potential due to jealousy, pettiness, and racism. They did this at the time when traditional media is dying.
    The Cambridges don’t do enough work to justify all those ratchets. I hear that restaurants and fruit farms need labor in the UK. Or they can pay to weed Sandringham if they need something to do. Royal ratchet is going to be a dying occupation.

    • aftershocks says:

      Exactly @Lanne. All of these dumb rehashes by the clown ratchets are beyond ridiculous! They are also consistently reaching back into the past to ressurect endless old Diana anecdotes and/or Diana-related stories added to the endless cosplays by Keen. They need to let Diana R.I.P. Thank fate, God and karma that Harry is carrying on Diana’s legacy, and living the life Diana dreamed of living in California after her sad saga in the gilded cage.

  13. Lori says:

    Laying to ground work for Scottish separation to be blamed on Harry and Megan. I see you dusty saltines. Nothing to do with the disney tartan tour that the keenbridges used as a cover to meet with anti separationists. No no its because Megan didnt want her kid to be called Dumbo.
    Suck it saltines!!

  14. Marivic says:

    I hope Scotland severs ties with the monarchy and the commonwealth and make this clear during the Queen and William’s visit.

  15. Over it says:

    Lol. I don’t know but let me help them out just in case. The British media is so dumb they keep writing dumb ass stories in their dumb as shit papers because they know that the dumb as F people who read trash like the daily mail or sun or telegraph are definitely dumb as door nails.

    • BayTampaBay says:

      I never thought I would see the The Times of London stoop so low. Can you imagine The Guardian, The New York Times, Washington Post, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, The Boston Globe or The Los Angeles Times originating this dumber than dumb-fu&k story???

      • Saucy&Sassy says:

        BayTampaBay, Nope. But we do have journalistic integrity in the US mainstream media. They would want to know the “sources” for the story. And you know that ain’t gonna happen.

  16. TheOriginalMia says:

    I don’t think I can facepalm myself anymore in regards to all of these leaks from the UK press. Stop it! Y’all are embarrassing yourselves. This so-called “news” of Harry & Meghan rejecting a Scottish title just happens to drop on the same day we hear about the Queen & Anne & William touring Scotland. Look…I know Dusty Saltine Isle needs 1) Harry & Meghan to cover for various indiscretions and 2) need their names out there to increase interest in royal stories, but please stop with this silliness. Who cares what title Archie will or will not inherit from the BRF. He’s an American citizen, who won’t be going by anything other than Archie Mountbatten-Windsor.

  17. Myra says:

    Technically, Harry is the Earl of Dumbarton, isn’t he? Otherwise it would mean that Harry doesn’t have a Scottish title when he is in Scotland. His son will inherit the title when Harry passes. Don’t let that distract us from the fact that Charles will deny his mixed race grandchildren the titles of prince/princess, only has 8.5% non-white members at the palace and cut his son off financially before they could secure an income for themselves.

    • Jeremy says:

      Harry is the Earl of Dumberton but his son can use the title while he waits to become a duke.

      • Myra says:

        So since Archie is still a baby, he can go by Archie. If he wants to use the Earl title he can use it when he comes of age.

  18. Elvie says:

    The Scottish titles do work this way. For instance the Duke of Kent’s eldest son goes by the Earl of St. Andrew, but I also don’t believe this story is the truth or the whole truth. We know how they lied about Meghan and Harry not wanting a title for Archie, so they’d lie here too if they could.

  19. Cessily says:

    It is no coincidence that this is a Camilla Tominey gossip column story on the eve of the Cambridge’s Scottish fail and the Queens Scotland clean up tour..
    The entire thing is unbelievably shallow and transparent..

    • equality says:

      Yes. If this were really a thing why is it coming out now and not when Archie was born?

      • Cessily says:

        Exactly.. Camilla has been blatantly publishing and stating lies easily proven, this is more of the same.

      • Sarah says:

        It’s because the Courtiers have informed Camilla to drop this story now to cover up the reminder of how badly W&K did in Scotland during their “train tour”. What they want is for folks to start complaining and causing a big hoopla and then they’ll forget to focus on the trip. Those with a 1/4 of a brain know that this story is false but most folks will believe it and then the Sussex squad defends the couple and whoops no more other stories to discuss.

  20. Sunday says:

    The only reason Harry and Meghan would have rejected the courtesy title is because Archie deserves a real title, it’s his birthright. They didn’t want to agree to Earl because Earl is not HRH. The prince title would make Archie an HRH just like the Cambridge children and would grant him security. The Earl title does the opposite – it reinforces that he is “beneath” the kambridge klan and it removes the security obligations.

    Sort of off topic but I think this gets misinterpreted from the interview a lot – yes, Meghan was referencing Charles changing protocol so that Archie would not become a prince when Charles ascends the throne, but if you listen carefully she was ALSO saying that the firm refused to issue a special letters patent that would make him an HRH and a prince at birth like they did for the Cambridge children. Those kids are not the grandchildren of the monarch, they’re the great grandkids, and would not have been entitled to an HRH at birth without the firm stepping in to change that. The same courtesy was not extended to Harry and Meghan, therefore denying Archie security from birth. Then, the firm twisted the knife by making it clear that not only would they not make Archie HRH then, but that they would actually change protocol in the future to make sure he never gets it. The “Earl of Dumbarton” was tossed at them as an insulting consolation prize. It has nothing to do with the word DUMB (but it is pretty dumb on the whole).

    • Jeremy says:

      HRH doesn’t equal security. Edward and Sophie don’t have 24/7 security just when they’re on an engagement. None of the grandchildren of the monarch except Harry and William were getting security before Megan and Harry left. Regardless of if Archie has the HRH or not he is probably never getting security but that would have been true had they left or not.

      • MsIam says:

        Beatrice and Eugenie had security until they turned 18. Then Andrew paid for it. Someone here said Zara got security too and was surprised when it stopped which is why she lives on Anne’s property so she can continue to get security. So Harry assumed his kids would be treated the same as his brother’s kids.

      • Becks1 says:

        @msIAm – I was googling* this past week and Beatrice and Eugenie had security up until 2011! Eugenie was 21 by that point. That was when the whole setup changed and Sophie and Edward lost it except for engagements. Andrew apparently argued that B&E should still have it because of their HRH status but that was shot down. So there is definitely a precedent for grandchildren of the monarch to have protection while growing up (and lets be honest, Archie is going to be the grandchild of the monarch sooner rather than later.) My guess is they were told he would never be HRH and he would never get security.

        *fine I was BINGING it

      • BayTampaBay says:

        @ABritGuest – Could Sophie & Louise have been with private security??? I have no idea but this is just a thought.

  21. Elle says:

    Only the Prince Harry Chimpo nonsense was dumber than this juvenile name calling.

  22. Amy Bee says:

    If Harry didn’t like the name he wouldn’t have accepted it in the first place. Secondly, Archie only inherits the title when Harry passes away. If we’re going by royal protocol, Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex’ son goes by Viscount so the same rule should apply for Archie. This story has been dismissed by, of all people, Robert Jobson who said that Archie can only inherit title from Harry, he can’t use it now. This story was put out to distract from the Royal accounts report, to encourage further attacks against Harry and Meghan and to excuse Charles’ decision to refuse making Archie a prince. And dumb is a word used in the UK.

    • Nic919 says:

      When Jobson steps in to correct it, you know it’s off the mark. He is no fan of the Sussexes.

      • Becks1 says:

        But I don’t think that’s right because we see others use lesser titles – James goes by Viscount Severn, which is one of Edward’s lesser titles. Is it because Dumbarton is a Scottish title?

      • BayTampaBay says:

        Archie can use “Earl of Dumbarton” as a courtesy title with Harry’s permission just as we have Viscount Severn (son Wessex), Earl of St. Andrews and Baron Downpatrick (son & grandson of Kent) and Earl of Ulster (son of Gloucestershire), Earl of Burlington (son of Devonshire), Earl of Rocksavage (son of Cholmondeley), Earl/Countess of Dumfries (son or daughter of Bute), Earl/Countess of Mar (son or daughter of Sutherland) and Viscount Weymouth (son of Bath). I can go on and on if you like. LOL! LOL!

        Charles & QEII have NOTHING to do with use of a courtesy title once a title has been granted.

    • Jeremy says:

      Archie won’t officially inherit the title until Harry dies but first sons can use their fathers junior title. So Archie has the right to be the Earl of D. And his son will be the Baron of Kikiel. Then when Harry dies they all move up one slot. Edward’s son is a Vicount because his dad is only an earl, Harry got a Duke title so his son gets a step up to Earl bc it’s a better title

      • candy says:

        This is all way outside my wheelhouse but don’t Edward’s children have a title because they are the grandchildren of the monarch?

      • Becks1 says:

        @candy no its because the father is titled, I think. For example, the oldest son of the Marquess of Cholmondeley (aka David Rocksavage, husband of Rose Hanbury) is known as the Earl of Rocksavage, while the second son is just Lord Oliver Cholmondeley .

      • BayTampaBay says:

        @Beck1 – You are correct Alexander Cholmondeley is the Earl of Rocksavage and his younger twin brother is Lord Oliver Cholmondeley.

        A courtesy title is a title that does not have legal significance but rather is used through custom or courtesy, particularly, in the context of nobility, the titles used by children of members of the nobility (cf. substantive title

        Here is the link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtesy_titles_in_the_United_Kingdom

      • BayTampaBay says:

        @Candy – Edwards children have the “Style” of HRH Prince/Princess of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland because they are grandchildren in the male line of the monarchy. However, with the permission, consent and agreement of QEII & their parents, Louise & James will not use the style of HRH while children during their minority.

        Sophie is a Countess because she is married to an Earl. Louise is a Lady (Like Diana) because she is a daughter of an Earl. James is a Viscount because Viscount is the highest subsidiary title held by the Earl of Wessex. If Edward had a second son he would be a Lord.

    • Amy Bee says:

      Another thing, I think the Palace told Harry and Meghan that Archie was not going to get any title.

    • aftershocks says:

      ^^ Yes, M&H were apparently specifically told that their offspring would not receive the royal HRH Prince/ Princess titles at birth, and perhaps not even when Charles becomes King. But, sorry @Amy Bee, there are several things you mentioned in an earlier post that are inaccurate. Archie will inherit the Sussex Dukedom and the subsidiary titles when his father passes. However, according to convoluted British traditions regarding titles and styles, Archie is currently allowed to use one of his father’s subsidiary titles. Typically, the earldom title is used by the eldest son of a Duke. So Archie technically is the Earl of Dumbarton, despite never officially assuming or using the title.

      In the case of the Earl of Wessex, that is a lesser title below a dukedom. Therefore, the eldest son of an Earl is called Viscount. Harry is a Duke, so his son Archie would not be styled a Viscount.

      Yep, it doesn’t clear up much I know. ;) In fact, it’s all fairly dumb and meaningless. But we are talking about ancient traditions that were formed on that Salty Isle, so par for the course.

      • BayTampaBay says:

        HRH Prince/ Princess is a “style” not a title. Lord, Lady, HSH, HH and Honorable are styles.

        Duke Rootintuttin von Moneybags, Earl Spencer, Earl of Grantham, Duke of Cambridge, Earl of Wessex, Marquess of Cholmondeley, and Duke of Cornwall are titles.

        In the UK, you can be a Princess/Princess without a title (HRH Princess Beatrice) or you can be a Duke, Marquess, Earl, Viscount or Baron with out a style of HRH (Duke of Westminster).

        When the Earl of St. Andrews inherits his father’s title of Duke of Kent he WILL NOT inherit the style of HRH. His “style” will be “Your Grace”.

      • Feeshalori says:

        The way l understand it, Archie and Lili will automatically become HRH prince/ss when Charles becomes king as grandchildren of the monarch. They didn’t receive the titles at birth because the queen did not make the exception with them the way she did with Charlotte and Louis in her Letters Patent. She has to issue Letters Patent now to deny them the titles when Charles ascends the throne. So far she hasn’t and is probably leaving it up Charles to deal with it. If she doesn’t, Charles will have that task of removing those titles with his own Letters Patent. He can’t deny them anything now as POW. So as it stands now when he is ascends the throne, Archie and Lily become prince and princess and then he revokes the titles.

      • Purpeller says:

        Some dukedoms are royal dukedoms: Kent/Gloucester/Cambridge/Sussex/York are the current (Cornwall/Lancaster are subsidiaries)

        Then there’s non royal ones like Westminster, Leinster, Northumberland, Devonshire, etc. No HRH.

      • Feeshalori says:

        And because the current Duke of York has no male children and the title doesn’t pass to daughters, the title will then revert to the Crown on his death. Louis, as the second son of the FFK, will eventually get it if/when William succeeds to the throne.

  23. Nic919 says:

    Lili would also as the daughter of a Duke be able to call herself Lady Lili Mountbatten-Windsor and yet they have chosen not to use that honorific either. This is just them not using the courtesy title for their children. It really means nothing beyond that.

    And as if anyone would be around to hear Meghan say she doesn’t want a title with “dumb” in it.

    It’s such a stupid story.

    • BayTampaBay says:

      “yet they have chosen not to use that honorific either”

      Which is exactly what the Wessexes also did.

      Lord Archie, Earl of Dumbarton and Lady Lili Mountbatten-Windsor are what they legally are now but their parents choose to recognize them as Lady Lili Mountbatten-Windsor and Master Archie Mountbatten-Windsor.

      Personally myself I prefer Glücksburg . Bay Glücksburg, Marchioness of Tampa, Countess of Hillsborough has an excellent ring to me.

      • aftershocks says:

        @BTB, thanks for clearing up the difference between ‘titles’ and ‘styles,’ which I misused in my earlier post. Though the rest of my explanation I believe is accurate re the Salty British Isle’s archaic, dumbfounding and convoluted honorific traditions. Apparently, your clarification has been overlooked or misunderstood by some other posters. ;) No problema though regarding this latest ratchet rehash distraction. :)

        @Feeshalori, thanks also for your post which makes the distinction that Charles would have to change the LP removing HRH Prince/Princess ‘styles’ from Archie and Lili after-the-fact, when he takes the throne, since the Queen has not done so, and likely will not before she passes.

  24. Natalie C Tyler says:

    Title: Duke of Sussex. Harry is the Second to have this Dukedom. The first had the subsidiary title of Earl of Inverness. In 1986 HRH gave this title to Prince Andrew as a subsidiary of the York Dukedom. But HRH could have dipped into a pool that includes several other options. Is this her way of throwing shade? Or did a “Courtier” suggest the name and she complied without thinking?

    Over 150 years ago, British novelist Anthony Trollope, who excelled at depicting the Old 19th Century Saltines, created a character, who was with no discernable intellect: Lord Dumbello.

    He chose a woman with no hint of brain to marry, thus Lady Dumbello.

    “Dumm” means stupid in German, where it lead to Old English usage. It’s been a good thousand years.

    • Humbugged says:

      Dum means rock in Gallic – Dumbarton = Rock of the Britains as the on is on a volcanic plug where they built a castle

      • Humbugged says:

        Fort of the Britons

      • BayTampaBay says:

        So it is Dum-barton not Dumb-arton.

        Just pronounce it as “Dumarton” dropping the ‘b” and be done with it.

      • Humbugged says:

        No the word is Dum as it is a gaellic word and it has been called than from the Iron Age.Barton is the translation from Brythons into Scots


        But we will just change it because you don’t like it LOL

      • DM2 says:

        As a Gaelic speaker, I’ve never heard of the word “dum” meaning rock. I thought it was another form of the word “Dùn”, meaning a fortress, hillock, as in Dùn Èideann (Edinburgh). I always thought Dumbarton was an anglicised version of “Dùn Breatann”.

      • BayTampaBay says:

        @Humbugged – Thank you for your gaellic courtesy and thoughtfulness.

        The point I was trying to make is that if you do not like the syllable “Dumb” just change the the pronunciation. That is what a Yank would do! LOL!

    • Humbugged says:

      We speak a different language and meaning was about in the 860s

  25. Emmlo says:

    The courtesy titles are so silly. I’m not sure why they even need different ones for different UK countries.

    Is there anything on earth cuter than that Vancouver picture of Harry & Archie?? Rhetorical question – of course there isn’t. No wonder Meghan has been pregnant every year since the wedding. 😍

  26. KS says:

    Honest to God the best thing would have been to give those kids titles if anything other than to show the world that black 👏 lives 👏 matter 👏👏👏

    • aftershocks says:

      ^^ Conversely @ KS the elephant in the room is that the Sussex kids’ melanated heritage is why the HRH Prince/Princess titles are being withheld, at least no LP to bestow them now, and indications that the LP might be changed when Charles is King to prevent them automatically receiving royal titles. I’d bet that Harry was told before he met Meghan that his future children would receive royal titles at birth like his brother’s children were given.

  27. Lizzie says:

    No way this is true and ‘palace sources’ sat on it all this time.

  28. candy says:

    I never liked any of the titles bestowed on them and no, I don’t think it’s by accident that they were given these. These interpretations aren’t lost on anyone, not even the Queen.

  29. SenseOfTheAbsurd says:

    This is clearly made-up bullshit and shows how desperate the media are for Sussex material, because they’re not getting any.

  30. Aang says:

    Will Archie become Duke of Sussex when Harry dies?

    • BayTampaBay says:

      Yes and there is NOTHING QEII or Chucky or Baldingham or #CamillaTomineyIsaLiar (aka Camilla Tominey) can do about it.

  31. BayTampaBay says:

    Wrong place!!!!

  32. Lyds says:

    What’s in a title, anyway? Being the Duke and Duchess of “Cambridge” hasn’t caused the public to perceive Willnot and Cannot as intelligent and educated, although I bet it was William who snickered like a schoolgirl when he found out his brother would be the Earl of DUMBarton. “Good one!” he must’ve thought, “I’ll put it in my pocket and use it for a ‘clever’ smear later.”

    • Humbugged says:

      the word is Dum Barton .amadan

      • BayTampaBay says:

        @Humbugged – THANK YOU for the clarification!

        Do you (do know how to correctly say this) speak Scottish, Welsh, Cornish or Irish gaellic? I am a language ignorant Yank with an Enquiring Mind that Wants to Know!

      • Humbugged says:

        I speak Lallan Scots ,but not the Gaelic version .So the same language that Robert Burns and Stevenson wrote in .

        There is 3 types of Scots ,lallans in the Lowlands ,ullans in N.Ireland and doric up in Aberdeenshire .And they also have Gaelic in the Highlands and the Islands

  33. khaveman says:

    It was meant as a slight to them and their son from the beginning. If it’s rejected then there’s your answer.

    • Humbugged says:

      Dumbarton was a soldier and so was his son

      • Saucy&Sassy says:

        Humbugged, and this may be why TQ chose this name to bestow on Harry. It makes sense, and no one will be able to make me believe that Harry is offended to be known by the name of a soldier.

      • BayTampaBay says:

        @Saucy&Sassy – I agree with you 100%!

    • fifee says:

      Dont know what you mean by saying it was a slight to them. Do you mean the name Dumbarton? Because if so you need to look at a map of the west of Scotland. It might not be the nicest or classiest area but its significant in Scottish history.

  34. MA says:

    As the Oprah interview showed, nothing is as it seems. We thought Harry and Meghan WANTED to not do Lindo or not have Archie be a prince or have Meghan’s name removed from the birth certificate but that was all a lie. Maybe it wasn’t their choice but if it was, as jf the British tabloids would be privy to any of that information

  35. Feebee says:

    I think the only dumb one here is Tominey thinking we were all stupid enough to believe that would be the sole or first reason to reject that particular title.

    Not sure why they’ve gone with this beat-up as if Harry is the Earl of Dumbarton then surely he would have to pass away for any talk of Archie taking over the title??

    • aftershocks says:

      @Feebee, as explained earlier: Archie as Harry’s oldest son is entitled to use one of his father’s subsidiary titles as a courtesy, typically the earldom. So, technically Archie is the Earl of Dumbarton, but his parents declined for him to use it, at least during his childhood.

      Likely, neither of the Sussex offspring will ever prefer using any British titles or styles. As @BTB explained earlier, the Earl of Dumbarton is a ‘title,’ and HRH Prince is a ‘style.’

  36. The Recluse says:

    What a strange claim. Dumbarton is not such an odd name. There is a museum in Georgetown in DC by that name, as well as a park, if memory serves. A nice place by the way. I never did make into the museum though.

    • Premadonna says:

      You are correct! I havent been in the museum either, just on the grounds which are GORGEOUS.

  37. Jane Wilson says:

    Oh gawd. The UK has more crazy name places than any other country…with the possible exception of Australia!
    Dumbarton is a fine old name from a fine old place. And Archie wouldn’t be using his title (if he ever did) until he’s older.
    Harry knows that – and I’m positive Meg is more than canny enough to get it.
    Dumbarton is a title to be extremely proud of.

  38. Nivz says:

    They may need to issue a rebuttal i think. This is calculated to get people in Scotland angry and so more amenable to the brf visit soon. I don’t know how the Sussexes feel about implying they insulted the people of Dumbarton.
    Usually i don’t have an opinion about their lack of social media presence but this would be a fabulous time for them to retweet CT’s story with the comment “bitch you lied”

  39. MsGnomer says:

    This comment is appreciation for the poetic phrase “Dusty Saltine Isle.”

    Thank you! Mucho, mucho amor.