The royal “Counsellors of State” conversation really started last year, when the Queen was hospitalized and Buckingham Palace covered up her hospitalization for 24 hours. The week she was hospitalized and canceling her schedule, both Prince William and Prince Charles were out of the country. William was on holiday (per usual) and Charles was working. People realized that Prince Andrew was the only Counsellor of State in the country at the time, so if the Queen was truly incapacitated, Andrew would have had “authority” to make certain decisions.
In the months to follow, there’s been talk about removing Prince Harry and Prince Andrew as two of the four Counsellors of State, and replacing at least one of them with the Duchess of Cornwall. Nothing has been done about it because it’s not really Buckingham Palace’s decision – it’s a matter of state and a matter for the government. It’s also sort of a fundamental continuity-of-government issue, and I’m still shocked that no one has really dealt with it? Well, finally, rumors abound that the government might be looking into it:
Prince Harry should not be eligible to stand in for the Queen as a Counsellor of State because he no longer resides in the country, a new parliamentary briefing paper reveals. But Prince Andrew could still stand in for his mother should she become incapacitated, despite having to step down from public duties and relinquish his HRH title because of the Epstein scandal.
This week the House of Commons Library quietly published for the first time guidance on what arrangements can be put in place if a monarch is unable to perform their royal functions. It follows intense public debate about the roles of Dukes of Sussex and York as ‘stand-ins’ for the sovereign now they have both quit as working royals, particularly in light of the 95-year-old Queen’s recent ill-health.
The parliamentary briefing paper will increase pressure on Buckingham Palace to take legal steps to resolve the matter once and for all. There have been calls to appoint the next two senior royals in line to the throne – Prince Edward and Princess Anne – in their place.
A Government source said: ‘There’s been a lot of noise about Harry and Andrew and their roles as Counsellors of State and it was felt important MPs had all the facts. It has nothing to do with Her Majesty being ill.’
Crucially, the newly-published guidance says: ‘Under the 1937 Act, a Counsellor of State must be domiciled in “some part” of the UK.’ It adds: ‘The Regency Act 1943 added the discretionary provision that if it “appears to the Sovereign” that any eligible Counsellor will be “absent from the United Kingdom or intends to be so absent during the whole or any part of the period of such delegation”, then Letters Patent [a legal tool available to the monarch] “may make provision” for excepting that person.’
Harry remains sixth in line to the throne but hasn’t lived in the UK since late 2019. However, there is no provision under the Act to exclude a member of the family who is no longer a working royal, so long as they remain in the line of succession, so Andrew, who is ninth, could be called on to stand in.
Buckingham Palace said last night that there was ‘no change’ to the current Counsellors. An aide said suggested there were ‘no plans’ to change them. Sources speculated the royal household may be concerned about the reaction from ‘across the pond’ if changes are made. ‘They could just be reluctant to poke the bear,’ they said.
Call me cynical, but I would imagine that all of this is being slow-walked because they don’t want to go through a massive fuss about changing the Counsellors of State when most of these people know that they’ll have to do it again (soon) for King Charles. When Charles is king, Camilla will be one of his Counsellors of State, and William too. That’s when the larger conversation about whether Harry is “allowed” to be a Counsellor will really happen, and I would assume that Charles will have a bigger say in whether he wants Harry as a counsellor. And I would think… no, probably not. Charles would probably prefer Anne and… God knows. Not Edward and not Andrew. LOL. But yeah, they should definitely take care of this. (And I kind of doubt Harry cares at this point, but who knows.)
Photos courtesy of Avalon Red, WENN.
-
- 79165, LONDON, UNITED KINGDOM – Tuesday June 05, 2012. Prince William, Catherine Duchess of Cambridge and Prince Harry attend the Diamond Jubilee celebrations as they appear on the Buckingham Palace balcony in London. Photograph: ©PacificCoastNews.com **FEE MUST BE AGREED PRIOR TO USAGE** **E-TABLET/IPAD & MOBILE PHONE APP PUBLISHING REQUIRES ADDITIONAL FEES** LOS ANGELES OFFICE:+1 310 822 0419 LONDON OFFICE:+44 20 8090 4079
-
- Memorial service to commemorate the centenary of the Battle of the Somme at the Thiepval Memorial,Image: 292858266, License: Rights-managed, Restrictions: , Model Release: no, Credit line: – / Wenn / Avalon
-
- Britain’s Prince William, Duke of Cambridge, Britain’s Princess Kate, the Duchess of Cambridge and Britain’s Prince Charles, Prince of Wales pictured during the commemorations at the Tyne Cot Commonwealth War Graves Cemetery part of the commemoration for the centary of Passchendaele, the third battle of Ypres on 30th and 31st July 2017, Monday 31 July 2017. KURT DESPLENTER,Image: 514176477, License: Rights-managed, Restrictions: UK and USA ONLY- Fee Payable Upon Reproduction – For queries contact Avalon.red – sales@avalon.red London: +44 (0) 20 7421 6000 Los Angeles: +1 (310) 822 0419 Berlin: +49 (0) 30 76 212 251, Model Release: no, Credit line: KURT DESPLENTER / Belga Press / Avalon
-
- Britain’s Kate, Duchess of Cambridge, Prince William, Camilla, the Duchess of Cornwall, Prince Charles and Queen Elizabeth II from foreground are seated at the Commonwealth Service at Westminster Abbey in London, Monday, March 11, 2019. Commonwealth Day has a special significance this year, as 2019 marks the 70th anniversary of the modern Commonwealth – a global network of 53 countries and almost 2.4 billion people, a third of the world’s population, of whom 60 percent are under 30 years old.,Image: 531581572, License: Rights-managed, Restrictions: NO UK USE FOR 48 HOURS- Fee Payable Upon reproduction – For queries contact Avalon sales@Avalon.red London +44 20 7421 6000 Los Angeles +1 310 822 0419 Berlin +49 30 76 212 251 Madrid +34 91 533 42 89, Model Release: no, Credit line: – / Avalon
-
- The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge and Prince Harry at a service to mark the 100th anniversary of the start of the battle of the Somme at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission Memorial in Thiepval, France, where 70,000 British and Commonwealth soldiers with no known grave are commemorated.,Image: 532047418, License: Rights-managed, Restrictions: NO UK USE FOR 48 HOURS – Fee Payable Upon Reproduction – For queries contact Photoshot – sales@photoshot.com London: +44 (0) 20 7421 6000 Los Angeles: +1 (310) 822 0419 Berlin: +49 (0) 30 76 212 251, Model Release: no, Credit line: – / Avalon
-
- 09-03-2020 Commonwealth Day Celebrations Westminster Abbey 2020
-
- 09-03-2020 Commonwealth Day Celebrations Westminster Abbey 2020
-
- (Left to right) The Duke of Cambridge, the Prince of Wales, the Duchess of Cornwall, the Duchess of Cambridge, the Duke of York and Princess Beatrice sitting in St George’s Chapel at Windsor Castle during the wedding of Prince Harry and Meghan Markle.
-
- 09-03-2020 Commonwealth day Celebrations Westminster Abbey 2020
-
- 09-03-2020 Commonwealth Day Celebrations Westminster Abbey 2020
I wonder if Willyboy will push for Kate (or wife #2counselor eventually divorcing) to be counsellor.
Or Kate’s mom
Isnt the easiest and most sensible option to replace Harry and Andrew with Camilla and Kate!?
Usually only the consort of the current monarch is counsellor of state. The rest are the royals in succession to the throne who are over 18. While Camilla is likely to be one soon, I think this goes to Anne or Edward before Kate. Maybe even Beatrice.
What they don’t mention is that the wording is domiciled which has a different legal meaning. Currently Harry is still domiciled in the UK with the frogmore lease.
The real delay is Andrew because he should be removed for a variety of reasons but he meets all the criteria. That’s the real issue for the slow walking of this. The government knows how bad it is to target Harry and keep Andrew on.
I have read elsewhere that the queen already added Camila. Apparently it’s not correct but seemed like a logical move.
She hasn’t. It’s just speculation right now. Besides Camilla will be counsellor when Charles is King.
Maybe but like everything else with the institution, there are rules to it. So if Harry goes, he’ll be replaced by the next person in line above the age of 21 and that’s Beatrice. If Andrew goes, then he’ll be replaced by Eugenie.
Kate and Camilla will most likely become counsellors of state when their husbands are King – not too sure if it’s automatic or if Charles/William have to sign it off.
Katie Keen should not be made a counsellor of state.
Unfortunately, I do think Prince Harry cares. It is what he knows. Every action they take to exclude him must hurt.
Let’s not pretend we know what Harry thinks and feels about this since he has said nothing on the record.
IKR?!
We pretend we know what all of them think and feel every single day – it’s gossip.
I think OP is right on some level, folks can’t just turn off their feelings, no one is saying he is going to wail and gnash his teeth, just that it probably does sting a little. Harry’s human.
I think he cares but not in the same way you mean. Like he knows it’s done to hurt him but he has a happy nuclear family and a good therapist helping him process that low or no contact with these fools is for the best.
I hope he thinks about it in the confines of his therapists office and in some journal under lock and key in his desk but other than that it’s just not something he give much energy to.
I dunno. Personally, I think Harry is caring less and less about his role in The Firm and the upkeep of the monarchy. His focus seems to be keeping his family safe and maintaining his connection to his home land. I think he can separate the monarchy from the UK in his mind.
I would guess Harry considered this before he decided on living outside the UK. For once this isn’t a rule made up just for him.
I agree. It may still hurt or sting a little bit if it happens (maybe it wont, I don’t know him so I can’t say for sure, lol) but I do think he knew this was a distinct possibility and it was something he considered when deciding to leave.
iirc early discussions were Harry and Meghan considering moving to Canada as their part-time, private home base. That would have enabled him to remain a Counsellor as he was residing in a realm. I do think he took that in to consideration when leaning towards Canada first over the US, but it was rejected after Incandescent pitched a fit.
He cared about the military and charity work. He has never seemed that interested in the political type work or the fancy dress-up events.
Great insight equality!
Very good point! And let’s not pretend these salty a-holes wouldn’t secretly be thrilled if they got Harry back in country, as counsellor of state. Sure, rota, pretend that isn’t your fondest wet dream.
I remember being surprised during the Oprah interview that, far from not wanting to “burden” Archie with titles, as was widely reported, they (rightly) felt that excluding the first multiracial royal family member from his titles was wrong. After that, I’ve been more convinced that acts to exclude Harry from his hereditary roles isn’t something he is ok with, even if he accepts it.
My impression was that they wanted to keep their titles, because with the titles comes government security. That’s the only thing they care about. Not their standing in the pecking order.
@SaraTor: At that point, Harry was still trying to make a go at being a working royal. I’m not sure how he feels about titles for Archie and Lili now that he’s out of the system and living full time in the US. Remember he and Meghan offered to continue as part time working royals and that was rejected outright.
Snuffles, titles do not mean security. Beatrice and Eugenie are HRH princesses and do not receive security. Titles at birth, marriage gift titles, HRH, security are all separate things.
I think he cares but it was still worth it.
Oh ho, so the royal household is concerned about the reaction from “across the pond” and they don’t want to poke the bear. Seriously? It’s Harry’s fault that they can’t make a decision? It’s Harry’s fault that they can’t come up with an alternative to Andrew? And so much concern about what Harry wants and feels – wouldn’t it have been easier to have that concern when Harry was actually part of the RF?
I think they may be more worried about the reaction at home if they were to remove Harry and keep Andrew. But it’s curious that they always frame it this way, that they are “scared” of Harry throwing a tantrum, when that’s never been the case. Projecting, maybe?
I imagine just like they knew that they could lose their patronages and titles, I think it is likely that Harry and Meghan factored this in to their decision to move, and are fine with it.
Harry does not care. Meghan does not care. Salt Island needs to move on.
Exactly. Meghan said “…if this means losing things…so much has been lost already.”
See, this is one of the decision they should have made over the past two years that would have made sense instead of the punitive, petty bull (patronages that wanted to keep him, etc) decisions they did make. He doesn’t live there enough to be “on call” for an emergency. I don’t think this one would bother him – so their worry about the reaction from across the pond is more BS spin to make him seem hot headed and petulant.
I’d love it if Harry preempted the conversation with a telegram: no, thanks.
I seriously doubt Harry cares anymore. The longer he is in America, the more he can heal and cleanse himself from the cult he was tied to for all of his life. Yes, he can’t help the family he was born into, but he can help how he leads his life from now on. I’m sure Keen will be overjoyed to take his place so she can live out her Future Kween fantasy, or Cowmilla for that fact.
I thought the RF was ‘apolitical’. We really need a properly drawn up ‘British Constitution’ without input from B Johnson and his goons preferably
Oh this is rich. Go ahead, let’s see the peoples reaction when Andrew stands in for the Queen.
Please just do it. The break up was two years ago and you can’t seem to move on anyway.
Bea and Eugenie are ahead of Anne and Ed in line. Are they going to change the rules to only a “working” royal? If they do that and PC decreases the number of “working” royals, then where are they? If all these changes have to be made to change rules for the monarch, how is that any less work than just saying “no” to monarchy? And how does all this BS about having to be in a country to rule it justify ruling over commonwealth countries? We are in an age where technology makes it possible to do more things long distance, so except for extreme illness, why are the counsellors even needed?
Part of their existence is to actually counsel, to keep the monarch in check and be a sounding board. Removing Harry and allowing Andrew to stay means even less real world thinking from anyone near the monarch.
Until Harry says so we really don’t know how he feels. All we can really do is speculate..and If it were me I would probably be annoyed that Andrew is getting better treatment for disgusting behavior while I’m being exiled because my family dared to be harder working and more popular. Sigh
I actually think they are also worried about the US response to this move especially if the keep Andrew on there. They’ve been doing some heavy PR post Oprah interview and this wouldn’t look good. The Crown (Diana’s exhile) and Harry’s book are out this fall and there’s lots of parallels.
So the Telegraph says he’ll stay but the Fail says no he won’t. Seems to me either a decision hasn’t been made or everyone’s making it all up and no-one really knows. Anyways, I imagine this will be leaked to the Times/Telegraph if it happens because the BRF likes to leak the important stuff to those two papers. Not that they’re above leaking to the Fail by the way.
There is actually nothing in the rule book that says that Harry must be living permanently in the UK in order to be a Counsellor. This latest involvement of Harry has been exaggerated because of the Andrew scandal and stoked up by the Fail to negatively impact Harry. Non story.
If you look at this from strictly a governance perspective, and not a “we are punishing someone” perspective, it makes sense to remove Harry as the whole idea is that the person standing in has enough knowledge about ongoing matters to make decisions. Harry does not have that. Andrew should be removed from literally everything. I think this just highlights how thin their bench is.
But their replacements. Eugenie and Bea wouldn’t either. They aren’t working royals and are technically doing the exact same thing as Harry and Meghan minus living in the UK full time.
And too be honest what exactly are these great matters that they have to be in on. The royals don’t hold much power. It’s not like they are sitting down at the G7. Lol
Right, but if they were brought in, they could be briefed monthly or quarterly or whatever to get them into the loop. That’s harder to do with someone who is estranged from much of the family and nearly everyone above them in the chain. No idea what it entails but having Harry would basically be including someone who is on gardening leave from the RF. There isn’t really a good option.
PH said that he does communicate with TQ and there is nothing preventing PC from talking with him. And PC has actually claimed to several times.
If you look at it from a strictly governance perspective, it makes more sense to keep Harry on. Because it would be the govt doing the briefing, not the Windors and their squabbling. And it would ensure someone with solid perspective outside the royal bubble was kept on. Let’s not pretend that Andrew, Anne, Edward have more ‘perspective’ about the actual goings on of government than Harry.
The connection to the royal family is the prerequisite for the role, it’s not based on merit. If it was, literally none of these people would be on the list.
Anne is the only one with brains so she would actually be the ideal candidate for counsellor. I am not sure why you included her alongside andrew and edward.
Erini
Careful. You’re about to fall into the ol’ trap! Anne isn’t covered much. Like most if they’re not covered we project our opinions on them. Anne isn’t above them. She is them. She’s just not covered much at all.
I am not sure about Anne having brains. She is popular with elderly, white, middle class Brexiteers. She does her duties because she has no choice.
Anne is just as entitlted and underhanded as Andy boy, she’s just much better at hiding it.
If necessary Harry can be in the UK in less than 24 hours and if regular briefings are needed it can be done by the British Consulate in California.
If the Queen can meet with her prime minister on zoom, Harry can attend whatever meeting is needed the same way.
It sounds like for once they are actually considering the optics. Removing Harry but not Andrew (who obviously still lives FT in the UK) is a horrible look. Removing both is also a bad look bc it makes it seem like they are “equals” in terms of wrongdoing.
I don’t think the Queen will agree to Andrew being removed, so I expect things to stay as they are until Charles becomes king. then it will be interesting. If its anything besides the line of succession and age as factors, then it starts to dilute the point of a hereditary monarchy, right? “Oh so Charles can pick the counsellors based on who he likes best but we’re stuck with the oldest as the monarch regardless?” I don’t think most people would take it that far, even in their heads, but I’m sure its something Charles has thought about. And as long as he keeps Harry, the likelihood of Andrew ever being needed is really slim (bc with Charles as king, you would have Camilla, then William, then Harry.)
It looks to me as if having their non-royal spouses as counsellors dilutes that bloodline thinking also.
Honestly, I trust Princess Anne more than most of the Royal Mafia. I’d rather see her as a counselor of state before Duchess Dolittle.
I love her! She is such a cool lady, a bad b.
Anne’s house was fixed up (illegally) with Crown Estate funds. She lets her adult children live rent free in her taxpayer-funded townhouse in London when they aren’t living on her taxpayer-secured estates. She’s racist, massively entitled, rude, and currently the only member of the close family who was convicted of a criminal act.
The press thinks that getting Harry removed as Counsellor of State will be some sort of punishment. But I suspect Harry doesn’t care about this and I agree there’s no urgency to change the line-up when the Queen is still alive. When she dies, BP will petition parliament for the changes that the press wants.
Keen – counsellor of state… For WHAT? botox, sausage curls? Coats? Everyone in th RF have done more. She is 40 acting 10 with jazz hands and frozen photo pics. Lol
Exactly! Don’t forget that Duchess Keen would also be charged with opining about the arrangements of buttons and the coordination of jeggings with other articles of sportswear!
Exactly! I was just about to post this quote.
H&M are not interested in the titles etcetera. M specifically said in the O interview that she has no attachments to those things (titles etc). But theyre not going to make it easy for those welfare grifters living in palaces on shutter island. You want it? Come tek it!
Regarding titles for their kids:….H&M are not going to actively deprive their kids of their birthright. When they turn 18, if they choose to spurn it all, thats their prerogative but the parents are gonna fight to ensure that their kids, especially being the first kids of color in the BRF, get whats theirs.
The motive for denying Archie the title he is entitled to was so clearly racist – and Meghan and Harry are not going to take that lying down. I think that, apart from the security issue, it was the racism inherent in the decision that made them push back.
If the royal households were truly afraid of poking the bear, they would stop smearing the Sussexes.
Anyway, it’s obvious this topic has been unsuccessfully broached with the RF so I think this is the govt trying to figure out a way of going around TQ to exclude Andrew. After Virginia’s settlement (because this obviously wasn’t a major issue before), Andrew’s paid security and proximity to power as a counsellor of state are horrible optics. And scary. Harry, as usual is just convenient collateral damage. His fight over security may also be a factor as to his inclusion in this fiasco. The British govt seems to be as bad at PR and decision making as the BRF. The more ties they foolishly cut, the better for Harry because the Sussexes need to stay as far away from the infighting, corruption, and power plays between the royal households themselves and between the RF and now the govt as possible. After all, Charles’ pay for play scandal has left him very vulnerable to influence/control by the govt.
Anne is the only one with brains so she would actually be the ideal candidate for counsellor.
Erini, actually, I think it would be better to go with Bea and Eugenie. Look at the ages of everyone. I haven’t seen much of Bea, or I haven’t paid attention. Eugenie is a good public speaker and seems to have a lot on the ball. If they only put in people who will die sooner than later, won’t they be creating another problem down the line and not too far into the future?
What makes you think Anne has brains?
The bigger issue other than speculating on what Harry is feeling about all of this is that pedo Andy needs to go. Go ahead and get the ball rolling to remove him and add Anne or Edward to replace him. He doesn’t need to be Counsellor of anything.
Harry could easily, if temporarily, be domiciled in the UK. I wonder if this is the reason security is being withheld.
I feel like this is tabloid speculation to keep everyone’s name in the press cycle. It makes zero sense to make changes at this point in time when the Queen will likely cork it in the relatively near future. Unless of course that change is to boot Andrew (off of a bridge), that will always make sense.
I fully agree it is yet another royal click bait story.
Given everything that is happening in Europe now with Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, I have a hard time believing Parliament is going to do anything about this issue right now. The Queen actually has very little real power. If she can’t do her “duties” like opening red boxes and having teas with people, well, that’s okay. I imagine the UK will survive.
Why would Harry care about something that until recently most people didn’t know or care about? They have had to explain what this is to even the hard core royalist. The only reason this is being brought up is because they think it will embarrass or humiliate Harry. They actually think the rest of the world is going to care about some provision. IMO. It infuriates then that Harry moved on after the military titles and patronages were stripped. They’ve never brought this up exclusively for Andrew. As for Harry’s feelings. When has he ever shown an interest in matters of state. Never. IMO. This is just a formality to him. One that doesn’t directly impact his life at all. Here’s proof that this isn’t really that important. They just announced the spring tour dates. Charles and William will be out of the country at the same time. If this were so critical they wouldn’t allow that. Given that the Queen has been ailing since last fall they could have easily avoided that. We live in the 21st century the idea that someone has to be physically present in order to sign some papers is ridiculous. Even if she died suddenly; the country would still function because Charles automatically becomes sovereign.
Is there any chance these Spring tour dates have Charles and William conveniently out of the country while the Invictus Games are being held in the Netherlands?
If Charles hopes to become King he better not let Andrew step in and perform duties as a counsellor of state. Most likely Charles will handle the bulk of the queens work with William showing his face occasionally and neither will do much traveling for the short term.
Hm, could it be good from Harry’s perspective to be removed and therefor be a less attractive target (security wise)?
@Tara – he’s still a blood prince and an Afghanistan veteran. Both of which still make him a big target, sadly.
He’ll always be a target (along with Meghan and their kids). The racism against Meghan *tainting* the royal bloodline runs deep, and Afghan terrorists still have him on their hit list.
Abolishing is looking better and better as these stories read on, doesn’t it?
It’s too bad for them that Harry has more common sense than the lot of them combined and would actually be the person who would do the best job in the position.
I actually think Harry SHOULD be removed. That family is toxic, filled with back-stabbing, racist, grifters, who are friends with rapists and sex traffickers. Plus monarchies are on the wrong side of history. I know I’m just one unimportant person, but to me, the more Harry associates with the royal family, the less credibility he has (I mean professionally; personally, they are still his family that he is stuck with).
I dont think the position is really important for UK.
You have an inexperienced, uneducated, having no voice in everything, never have work experience in her life to be the the counselor of state for more than 80 years.
Just put Edward in the list and be gone with it.
I think that BP indicated that they do not have any plans to do a replacement. If there ever a need to do so, it should go to Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie based on their place in line to the throne. Since the Cambridge’s three children are minors, the princesses would be next should Princes Andrew and Harry be removed.
What makes anyone think Anne is brilliant? She never even went to college,
In my opinion Anne has very poor people skills, her rudeness is legendary, and that certainly is not a clever thing to do. Anne only seems to be close to her mother now. Her and Charles are poles apart.
IMHO it will be to Harry’s benefit to be removed as a counselor. It seems to me his values and those of the Firm are polar opposites.
If he sees this position as a duty to his country, not a duty to his family, he’ll want to keep it.