Seth Rogen has been married to his wife Lauren Miller for nearly twelve years. They don’t have children, they have dogs and busy careers. Seth has a bunch of side-hustles in addition to his Hollywood career as an actor, writer and producer. Seth is 40 years old and he and Lauren made the decision to just… be childfree. He’s been asked about it before, not with the consistency with which a 40-year-old actress would be asked, but still – he acknowledges flat-out that he’s able to live the life he lives with all its freedom because he doesn’t have kids.
In their thriving era. Seth Rogen revealed he has no regrets about choosing not to have kids with wife Lauren Miller.
“That has helped me succeed as well, definitely,” the actor, 40, shared during an appearance on “The Diary of a CEO” podcast, which was posted on Tuesday, March 7. “There’s a whole huge thing I’m not doing, which is raising children.”
The writer, who tied the knot with Miller, 41, in 2011 after seven years of dating, defended the decision not to expand his family.
“Some people want kids. Some people don’t want kids,” he continued. “Honestly, you just are told, you go through life, you get married, you have kids. That’s what happens. And me and my wife, neither of us were like that. Honestly, the older we get, the more happy and reaffirmed we are with our choice to not have kids.”
Rogen noted that not becoming parents has allowed him and Miller to do “whatever” they want, adding, “We are in the prime of our lives. We are smarter than we’ve ever been, we understand ourselves more than we ever have, we have the capacity to achieve a level of work and a level of communication and care for one another, and a lifestyle we can live with one another, that we’ve never been able to live before.”
He concluded: “Me and my wife seem to get a lot more active enjoyment out of not having kids than anyone I know seems to get out of having kids.”
I’m including a clip below and one of the most important points he makes is that “Some people want kids, some people don’t want kids, I think a lot of people have kids before they even think about it.” Very true. It’s like he said – a lot of people just buy into this idea that this is what you’re supposed to want, this is what you’re supposed to do, you’re supposed to get married and have kids. Now, I’m sure a lot of people do genuinely want to be parents and he’s not saying that the whole Parenthood Industrial Complex is broken – he’s just saying he opted out and he’s happy with his decision, and everything he’s seen as he gets older reaffirms his decision.
It’s rare I hear a man asked this question publicly so it’s refreshing for me to see Rogen answer this—something I’m rarely asked but I see women my age asked regularly. My friends rarely asked cuz they see my life makes sense for me. pic.twitter.com/hVku9McD4g
— Paul Bae (@MrPaulBae) March 11, 2023
Photos courtesy of Avalon Red.
Sames. Never wanted kids and have not ever regretted not having them – and yet, constantly asked why or how my husband must be so disappointed. He’s not.
Same here. But I’m 50. I feel that younger women these days don’t get as questioned these days? In my case, I had to explain myself until my mid 40s, when people started assuming I maybe hadn’t been able to have kids and stopped interrogating me. But 100% no regrets.
I was a young 20’s woman in law school with a friend in her mid 30’s. She had a 2 year old, a one year old, and a newborn going into law school. She said to me “if you don’t want kids don’t have them! They’re way too much work otherwise. But I wanted them.” It stuck with me because the messaging I had up until then was everyone should have kids.
I was at a woman’s day networking event recently and I overheard a SUPER successful female lawyer in her 50’s tell someone she had just met “I don’t have kids but it’s not because we didn’t want them. It’s because we tried and couldn’t.”
I asked if she felt compelled to offer that information to strangers and she said yes because people just assume me and my husband are selfish since we make a lot of money.
It made me so sad for her that even in that context which should’ve been a judgement feee zone she felt like she needed to justify it. I said oh that must be because parents are never selfish! Ha! How many selfish narcissistic mothers are out there?! The inverse of that assumption is so ridiculous.
I feel everyone’s comments up and down this thread so much. I never longed for children… until I did. And then a medical condition posed big hurdles without a guarantee. And although living with the “what if” wistfulness of it all, I was relieved to say that “I couldn’t” instead of “We didn’t really want to” to the intrusive questions people inconsiderately thought to ask. The “couldn’t” relieved me of their judgment. The Universe was ordered because what must be my “profound loss” was balanced by the ease of my “childless” (or charitably, “childfree”) life. I am ambivalent and feel it is as much a life decision as which job I’ve taken or man I’ve married or town I’ve lived in. My life is defined by none of these alone and all of them together.
The fact that he gets asked about his choice to not have kids over and over again perfectly illustrates the societal expectation he describes–like you’re a f*cking freak or weirdo because you’ve been with your partner for a decade and don’t have kids. Also, the fact that she doesn’t want them either is probably even more shocking to people.
Look, some of us just like our lives the way they are, And it doesn’t mean we hate kids. I love hanging out with my toddler nephew and I love dropping him off with his mom when he’s tired and grumpy lol. For me and my husband that’s freedom, man.
Also, I dunno, maybe just refrain from asking ANYONE this question? What the actual F. Why is such a personal decision anyone’s business? Also, if society is going to continue asking folks who don’t have kids “But why!?!?” perhaps we should consider asking those who got married/had kids “But why!?!?”
Absolute horse dung.
Right? I was shocked after I got married how many people asked me out of the blue when I planned to “start a family”. It had never crossed my mind to ask someone that I barely knew.
I think that is so true, you are brought up and no matter what your circumstances, the model of adult life is- you grow up, you have kids. It was rare (for me) to see one of my parents’ friends who did NOT have kids) b/c while raising kids, my parents were focused on the family.
When they became empty nesters i noticed they had more separate friends and activities – leaning in to their own things.
But even as early as teen years, i knew i did not want kids. Seems like a lot of work. Just as some women are born KNOWING they want to be moms, i just never felt that itch.
And i think what Mr. Rogen says is so true- i have met them, people who left high school and got married and had kids- and are to their core- not happy. If they had taken 5 years as an adult to think about what they wanted- they may have chosen differently (side note- i am sure everyone loves their kids, that is not at issue). But some people are so hurried to get started into adulthood (sometimes escaping truly painful, awful childhoods) they jump into parenthood as part of the process- and society rams it down your throat.
I think most people want kids.
But if there wasn’t as much societal pressure and just societal norm- a small percentage of people would give it some thought, and find that parenting is not something they want.
Last thing- a friend’s dad told us that he had dated women in their 50s who had… not second thoughts, but wrestled with their decision not to have kids- and i think that is probably true, but also part of a larger thing- when you think about all the paths you didn’t take and wonder what would have been. And i think that is natural and fine.
50- still fine living child-free.
50 and child free, and 0 regrets. Over the years, the people who have given me the hardest time were the ones with children who had never considered that not having them was ever even an option. You know, the ones who had them because that is what you do: you get married, your spouse wants kids, everybody has kids, so you have kids too. The people who really wanted them and enjoyed parenthood interestingly have been the ones with a more “each to their own” attitude.
And a lot of women, as they get into middle age, ruminate on how their lives might have been better (or at least good in a different way) if they hadn’t had kids. I think no matter what we choose in life we’re gonna have moments when we wonder what the other path would have been like.
Personally, when I was a young woman I desperately wanted children and could not have imagined being happy if I couldn’t have them. I went through infertility and it was brutal. In middle age, while I adore my children, I can look back and see that I could have been just as happy not having children. Especially since one of mine has serious special needs and his care has been stressful, exhausting, and expensive and completely and permanently derailed the career I had hoped for. The experience of being a mother has been wonderful in so many ways but there’s a lot I haven’t gotten to do and a lot of pain and worry I would have preferred to have avoided.
Judging by my childfree-by-choice sister’s experience, I do think it is more normalized now not to have kids, and I hope that will continue. Then at least whatever decision we make (insofar as the decision is in our hands – I know sometimes it isn’t), we know we’ve made it based on what we actually wanted for our lives.
It me — I’m “a lot of women”.
Grew up knowing I didn’t have the skills or drive to have kids (going so far as to make my own appointment in middle school, before even had first kids, to see doc about how to get a tubal ligation “in advance”😆).
Ended up having a child after 10 years of marriage because I thought my spouse would have secret regrets, and because he was such a lovely person I thought the world needed “more if THAT.”
(Side note: I obviously need ongoing therapy)
Love my now 18 yr old more than I breathe, of course, but it took soooooo much out of me. So much.
I did my very best and I’m grateful for my kid. But that “don’t do it if you’re not driven to cuz it’s too much work otherwise” is THE TRUTH.
I never thought about having kids, and it wasn’t because of my career. I’m over fifty, when people ask ( they always do), the answer is childless by choice. Follow with if we feel the need for a child, We will find our way to one of the millions of children needing loving parents. This answer put a stop to further questioning or discussion.
Kids deserve to come in to this world to people who want them. I think it’s great Seth is open about it and that we’re coming into a day and age where we’re normalizing these kind of discussions. Whatever works for people is what works. There’s no right or wrong answer, no matter what anyone else says. The most important thing I believe is not to take out any regrets on children.
I wouldn’t call myself childfree, despite at opting out of parenthood to this point. My mother was abusive to me growing up and I haven’t wanted to take the risk I would ever treat a child the way I was treated growing up. Now that I’m hitting close to 40, I’ve had a lot of therapy and am on the path to healing, my spouse and I are reassessing whether or not to remain childfree but at the same time, our lives are fulfilled and would continue to be fulfilling no matter what we choose.
My mother was also abusive towards me and I am an only child. I am 42 and thankful I didnt have kids because the few people I dated whom I wanted to have kids with ultimately became verbally and or physically abusive or an alcoholic and I refused to bring children into that environment. I see many who have chose toxic men or relationships and now their children have a lot of mental health and behavioral issues. I just didnt want to repeat the cycle. I have been through a lot of therapy, but unfortunately, my mother is still toxic and unhealthy and my father whom is very loving remains in a toxic relationship with her, so sadly, I have to put up with her at least with boundaries and a distance. I worry if I ever need to get her a caregiver because she most definitely would be physiclaly and verbally violent towards them.
My hope is one day, I can find a spouse like you who is safe, supportive, and non toxic.
Comments like, “Me and my wife seem to get a lot more active enjoyment out of not having kids than anyone I know seems to get out of having kids” rub me the wrong way. As a parent, i dont really care if people do or don’t want kids. I know i was supposed to and i love it so much i dont really compare my life to someone who didn’t – its completely irrelevant to me. His comment is like parents saying, “I feel so sorry for people who dont have kids because they are missing out.” Just stop with these decision wars and let your happiness tell others how you feel about your life.
Youre not wrong! But people get asked about not having kids 1000% times more than people get asked why they had children, so after a while it gets annoying = not so nice comments come out.
His response is partially because people who are childfree are treated like freaks and we are constantly being told our lives must be empty and sad, and that we don’t know true love. Dealing with comments like that all the time is exhausting and upsetting.
Also that we’re irresponsible. Of course one gets that kind of response. I’m 56 and I still get TOLD that I must have regrets. Nope. Not a one. If people feel it’s their right to ask that question, it’s my right to snark them for it.
Good point! It used to kind of rub me the wrong way too – for the exact same reason. And also because for me happiness isn’t my top priority – there’s a lot of joy and fulfillment in self-sacrifice, not limited to parenthood of course.
But how frustrating to always be asked, and why should he not be truthful about his perspective?
That one comment from one person is not nearly as annoying as living in a society that incessantly extols the virtues and joy of having children, trust me.
I know this is hard for some people to understand, but his comments are empowering and validating for a lot of us who have been made to feel like we are lesser than or that our lives are meaningless because we chose not to have kids. Let the man say what he wants.
I get what you all are saying because the predominant by a lot message is having kids is “normal” and life fulfilling and to have someone with a platform use it to say my life is great, I’m child free and I’m not a fluke is important and space needs to be made for that without any outside input.
Exactly. You said it so much better than I did, TwinFalls. Thank you.
In addition to the above comments, he said people he knew, he doesn’t know me so he doesn’t know how much I love my kids and my life. So unless you know him personally, I wouldn’t take offense.
*eyeroll* People with kids get so upset when you say you never want them. Some people don’t want the thing you love. Get over it.
My husband and I had this conversation very early on in our dating life. I think we both realized our relationship was serious, and I told him he needed to know I didn’t want children. He breathed a deep sigh of relief, and said he didn’t either. Now we’ve been married 22 years and are still happily childless by choice!
Similar here – we had the conversation on our first ‘official’ date and realised neither of us wanted children. Ten years later, we’re still in agreement!
Good for him. I know way too many parents that wish they didn’t have kids. That is not fair to the kids. I also hate when people say “It takes a village to raise a child”. No it doesn’t. You chose to have a kid, you are responsible for that child, not me or anyone else. Far too many times I’ve had my nieces plopped down in front of me and the parents just leave. They don’t ask if I’m willing to babysit. They just assume. I didn’t choose to be an aunt and I don’t have to be available when you don’t want to deal with your kids. It’s not my job. Parents (not all) love to take advantage of family members. Stop doing that !
As the only child-free sibling in my family, I couldn’t agree more with this comment! Just because I don’t have my own children doesn’t mean I can or want to drop my own plans to take care of yours.
Do you actually know people that wish they didn’t have kids – do you assume that or they’ve actually told you that? It’s interesting because I think without a doubt having kids tends to make people’s lives harder (and harder isn’t necessarily a bad thing) in almost all areas but at the same time I’ve never actually heard anyone say that they wish they didn’t have kids – I imagine because they love their kids so much they can’t imagine life without them. But I have heard parents give people hypothetical advice about whether or not to have kids knowing what they know now and I’ve heard them sometimes advise others not to have kids. I’ve just never heard a person specifically wish that they themselves never became a parent. That actually sounds heartbreaking.
Can confirm the existence of two mothers (one being my own) who have regularly mentioned how much easier it would be without the burden of offspring. Very fun for the child to hear.
Full disclosure: I have three children. I adore them. I work full-time, and I pick them up from school every day and I cook for them 6 days a week. I’m exhausted, but I’m so happy to see these awesome little balls of empathy and snark grow into bona fide humans who care about their community and neighbors.
And I wish we’d stop asking people why they do or do not have kids.
It’s been a biological and societal imperative forever to have children. The idea that you could not choose NOT to is a relatively new thing. So I think it’s great that he’s answered for them why it has been the best choice to not have kids. I think the more people that hear this, it normalizes it. I also appreciate that as a man, he’s being asked and he’s answering thoughtfully. I feel like generally this question just gets asked of the woman in the relationship and she gets the brunt of people’s opinions. I definitely think things are changing. My daughter is in her early 20s and says she is the only one in her group of friends who wants kids.
I’m in a weird place because I absolutely LOVE kids and always assumed I’d have them, but I’m also starting to see all the other things I could focus on in life if I didn’t have them and I don’t really feel sad when I remember that? So, I do feel okay either way, I haven’t ruled out having them, I’m very open to meeting a guy with kids or adopting.
However, I had a really upsetting experience a few months ago.I was at a conference for work that was primarily men (I never got hit on by more creepy men with wedding rings more.)
There was a 60-ish guy at our booth all week connected to our company.
He asked me how many kids I had, I said none, and he goes on a RANT that “girls” like me that don’t want kids are the problem with society and I better hurry up and have them since it’s my purpose in life.
(This man knew NOTHING ABOUT ME.)
I was so upset and when I told my mom, her response was, “Yeah, that’s awful, because what if you wanted kids and were infertile? That would have been so hurtful.”
The fact that my mom said THAT made me almost as annoyed as that man did, because does that mean I only would deserve respect and common decency if I was childless not by choice?
Wow I’m sorry you had to deal with such a f*cking jerk. Also, sorry but your mom’s response was not ok at all. I don’t know if you go on Reddit…but they have one just for childfree people to rant.
Thanks! My mom is the type who will get offended soooo easily and hold grudges FOREVER when it comes to herself, but expects everyone else to brush things off. She just doesn’t get it.
I was at CES which is a massive conference and really physically and mentally exhausting. This happened on the fifth day after a full week of this guy saying idiotic, rude things and so by the time that happened, I went to my hotel room and burst into tears that night.
People were actually telling me, “That conference is a great place to meet guys!” Yes–disgusting, sexist, rude married ones!
Children/Childfree, freedom to choose for yourself.
Society stop pushing expectations onto people.
SETH’S ANSWER IS EVERYTHING TO ME! I’ve been saying I’m so excited to NOT have kids 😆 I’m a 30 year old female btw. My mom said when u meet the right guy u will change ur mind. I said when I meet the right guy he will respect my decision to not have kids.
My partner and I are both 41 and extremely happy not to have children. (On our first date, when he told me that he had a vasectomy, I guess my face lit up like a Christmas tree and I squeaked in joy).
I have never in my remembered life wanted a child of my own, never had any ticking clock or instinct or fantasy. Instead of a “real” job, I worked through high school and university as a babysitter and sometimes nanny–and I enjoyed it! I enjoyed the children and I enjoyed leaving them to their parents. I love my best friend’s son and I very much hope my brother has children. But I am so very content having nothing but my partner and cats.
I really appreciate more prominent people speaking up about not having children and being happy with it, that procreating is not a required or necessary life path to be a full human with a “real” family with profound, “true” love and contentment in life.
I have kids, and I can be honest here because it’s anonymous: Had I known what being a parent would be like before becoming one, I would NEVER had signed up for it. I totally support all you child free folks.
I actually LOVE the part of parenting that involves having a relationship with my kids, teaching them, playing with them, showing them love, learning from them, helping them become good humans. I adore kids, and this was my motivation for having them.
But in my experience, more than 80% of parenting is stuff I never wanted and didn’t know enough about. There are financial woes, health scares, mental health issues, struggles with your co-parent, no time for yourself, work/life balance issues, missed opportunities, and endless f@*!ing chores that make you feel like life is slipping away — all of this while also trying to manage other challenging life events that come your way. Combined with the bulk of domestic responsibilities still being unjustly dumped on mothers and eventually recognizing my own neurodiversity, all these things have made being a parent a really difficult experience for me.
I adore my children to bits and I’m confident I’m a good mom, but I really can’t stand all the stuff that comes with the role.
Maybe I was dumb to fall for the idealistic image of what I thought being a mother and co-parent would be like. But I never had any indication it would be different. Now I feel like I was duped. My fault for being naive I guess.
So yes, child free folks, you are absolutely justified in making that choice and I hope you remain confident in that.
100% agree with what he said. Nice to see someone defending a child-free lifestyle in a balanced and articulate way. I’m in my mid-50s and don’t have kids, but it was less of a conscious decision than a byproduct of what was going on in my life during my child-bearing years (i.e., late marriage, prolonged divorce, career focused). When I think back on my childhood dreams, I never really fantasized about being a mom so maybe it’s not a surprise. Either way, I’ve never regretted it. And neither does my long-term partner.
Happily child free here. A friend, who has a HUGE blended family, asked me once why Mr. Smith and I didn’t have kids. She said “that makes you … very smart.” I LOL every time I think of it.
Same, my dude, same.
I knew I wasn’t wired right for kids. And never had any real interest in having a child. Nor did I ever meet a partner to have kids with. But I will say once menopause kicked in. I did feel a grieving of sorts. Since there was always a wistful ‘someday I might have a baby’ But that ship has now forever sailed away.
Happy for anyone that has kids and a happy family. But to know you are not right and not have kids is a brave and kind thing to do. People that have kids out of duty or societal pressures. Kids know. I know my parents only had me to make my Dad’s Mother happy. They just wanted to travel and I spent most of my life as a latchkey kid. Shuffled around to anyone that would take me so my parents could go travel. That was their real love, travel. Not their children.
That makes me so sad for you that your parents treated you that way. Sometimes I wish I could go back in time to be a mom to people I know now who never felt wanted as a child (although I can’t guarantee I’d do a good job!). You deserved better.
Thank you that is so kind. And I always tell my inner child you are a good and valuable person. And I can be a better person and treat people with kindness and respect.
I find the people who push the idea of having kids on others are really just looking for validation for their choices. I have a kid, but also have friends who don’t – none of them look miserable or sad about it. I love my son but no doubt there are times when it is an absolute pain in the ass and I do at times miss the freedom and flexibility being childless affords you – no “activities”, forced hangouts with parents of your kids friends who you may or may not like, the ability to vacation at times not linked to breaks in the school year…all of that.
Again, I love my son and have no regrets about having him – but, I don’t begrudge anyone making a different choice. It was a choice for us to stop at 1. And you’d be amazed at how, the moment you have one, people start asking about when you’re having your next one, as if it’s a foregone conclusion – my wife did not enjoy being pregnant, and our kid was a lousy sleeper for years, so revisiting that again was a nonstarter for us. Plus, one kid doesn’t require nearly the lifestyle adjustment that even 2 does.
So weird that people who obsess over their “freedoms” are at the same time so fixated on imposing their choices on others.
I have kids and I love them. One of my children has always said they don’t want kids of their own, and unless that changes, I hope they never have them. There are people in my inner circle who aren’t “the norm.” This can be diet (vegan), or job (artist), or love life (same sex relationship), or actively choosing to be child free. Excellent statement from Seth.
It’s nice to see guys having to answer. Just turned 50, no kids, can’t, no marriage don’t want to. I am told the dirty look I give, when some fool decides my life is their business, is pretty fierce. Honestly mind your business is always the best option. I love my life, also love my niece and nephew and friends kids. Dogs and cats are more my jam and I no longer cohabitate, I like my space. It’s nice to see this is becoming more of a societal norm, just let people live.
This should not be a debate. I am following a Tiktoker who is caring for both his 90+ grandma with beginning signs of dementia and his mother who has mobility problems. He is quite an attractive man and people in the comments are asking if he’s dating someone. If you are Asian and you are single with no kids you are automatically the designated caregiver of your elders or the nanny to your niece and nephews sometimes even their pets. Hiring a nurse or nanny is never an option. This child free vs people w kids is a debate among white people and white people only.
I’ve never really understood why people with children try to shame childfree people. I love my life and I love my kids, but that’s because I wanted them. Why can’t you just accept that people have different desires and goals that you do? And all parents talk about how hard it is to have kids, why would you want to do it if the benefits don’t outweigh that, which it wouldn’t if you didn’t want them in the first place. How hard is that to understand?
Friends, there’s a third path: I have a kid who I love more than I can say, and also I have a lot of freedom, because I’m divorced and have 50/50 custody.
Yesssss! I have had my nose pressed up against the glass of that shop window. After the way Sizzle Star described so well the inequities in a relationship with children, this option has the potential to level the playing field.
I get this question even at the ripe age of 50! I arrived to an answer that makes the person who asks it equally uncomfortable: I can’t, I had cancer down there, they took everything out. You should see the reactions that prove once again this is not out of genuine concern but of happily having something anything to put you down. They stammer, look guilty and back down. Because they were already on a bashing path and this is taking them aback as they feel they can’t look down on me anymore. I know I should fight the good fight and tell them off but I’m tired.
P.s. everything down there is peachy btw
So glad to hear that Seth Rogen is smarter for not having kids and that he and his wife get “more active enjoyment out of not having kids” than anyone he “seems to get out of having kids.”
Clearly, not having to think about Pamela Anderson’s kids allowed him to profit off his exploitation of her.
I enjoyed this article very much and so many of the comments. It’s nice to hear from like minded people!
I’ve never wanted kids and made that clear to my husband when we started dating. I was so happy we were on the same page and 15 years later – zero regrets.
I didn’t come here to repeat what’s already been said, but to add what I feel is always missing in these discussions. And I can’t imagine I’m the only person who feels this way…. So often in these conversations I see childfree people saying, “but I love kids, I truly do – just didn’t want my own.” Or “my career was so important to me, I never wanted kids to get in the way…” And I’d expect this is true for a lot of folks. But I also wonder sometimes if it’s still a subconscious way to try to pacify societal expectations and find some acceptance. For me, I have never really liked kids. Even when I was a kid, I liked to play by myself or do stuff with adults. I was an only child so this makes sense. But I’ve never been a kid person. I don’t care for them and rarely want to be around them. I don’t truly hate kids, on occasion I meet some that are interesting but in general – I just don’t care about them. I don’t wish them harm but I just nothing them… And I really can’t stand a lot of parents or traditional families. I think they’re worse than the kids themselves – entitled and act as if their child or family’s needs hold greater importance over everyone else, the community, the environment, etc.
Sorry for the short venting session – back to my point. The career thing… Yes many childfree or childless folks are dedicated to theirs careers and do great work – but a lot of us aren’t. And that’s okay!
My point here was to say you can be childfree and not strive to be the best aunt or uncle and you can be child free and not be career driven, or the person celebrating that without kids you’ve had time to become your best self.
I’m someone who is childfree by choice – I don’t particularly like kids and avoid them when I can. I work but my career doesn’t define me – it’s a job to get by. I’m still a flawed person trying to figure out life… I would imagine I’m not alone and for those out there like me – hi. We are okay!
It certainly doesn’t help when you have a mother and a traditionally absent father who kept telling you all through life to have kids so “they can take care of you” and who raised me with very little affection – guess what they expect from me now. Not having children at least means that I won’t ever feel as selfish and demanding as my parents have been.