Selena Gomez took a break from being a mess stateside and headed overseas for the holidays. She and a group of friends, including Kendall Jenner (I guess they made up after the Swaggy drama), have been Instagramming their holiday in Dubai. They all attended some New Year’s Eve club event and had plenty of time for sightseeing.
Selena and friends headed to Abu Dhabi’s Grand Mosque. Of course both of Selena and Kendall Instagrammed the visit. Because some celebrities can’t visit a place without posting proof. Likewise, Eli Mizrahi posted the above photo of himself with Selena. He deleted the picture (and locked his account) after people took issue with Selena’s ankle flash. Some outlets are claiming Selena posted and deleted the photo, but Selena left the group photos (with another ankle flash) up, so who knows.
What we have here is a group of starlets (and a couple of dudes) who are acting like teenage tourists. They smiled, threw their hands up, and made “fierce” faces at a sacred place. Most of them dressed according to custom, but there’s a fair amount of insensitivity in these photos. I don’t know if Selena purposely flashed her ankle as a sign of disrespect … she’s really pushing it out there in the top photo. My guess: Selena and her friends didn’t bother reading up on guidelines before their visit. Yes, it’s rude.
These pictures are similar to when Rihanna pose-harded outside the same place of worship. Rihanna drew so much attention during her sultry photo session that she was asked to leave the mosque. Selena and her buddies weren’t kicked out because no one noticed them. Thanks to social media, their adventures are now immortalized for the ages.
A$$holes. No place of worship should be disrespected like this.
Cringeworthy. I’m embarrassed for them. They are too stupid to be embarrassed of themselves.
My reaction also.
There’s a word for that — fremdschämen.
LOL!!!! So very true
I don’t mean to nit pick that, but “external shame” as the tightest translation I found doesn’t seem right. Shared embarrassment or embarrassed on their behalf/for their aloofness to the issue seems to be the case. *facepalm* also works.
Plus, they’re obviously getting celeb treatment. When I’ve traveled in the Middle East, you’d only get to see some of the most interesting places if you were dressed appropriately. A normal tourist wouldn’t even be granted admission to a mosque unless they were prepared to be respectful.
Looks like the chick in the back row is a Buckeye fan! OH-IO!
Alumni, here! So proud of my Buckeyes!
haha! I noticed it too. it’s the curse of being born in buckeye country. 😉
Congrats Buckeyes, go Big Ten!
Don’t any of these celebs bother to read up on local guidelines or listen to their well paid assistants or advisors? It almost seems like they are looking for trouble. Or maybe they just want attention like a spoiled child?
They don’t need to read up on anything. They just don’t have commonsense. Who goes to a place of worship and makes goofy faces and hand signals? They wouldn’t do this in a church but for some reason people think of Mosques as tourist attractions not sacred places.
Oh trust me, they do it in the cathedrals in Europe too. I’m living over here now and as an art lover and Catholic, I visit many cathedrals. But a lot of places that will get shut down quickly. But it’s not just posing, it’s having shoulders covered, etc…These religious sites are just seen through the lens of tourism and not religion. I always bring a large scarf for myself and my daughters when we visit warm weather places where you don’t want to be covered up when sightseeing but can toss that over you or around your waist (to cover knees) if you visit a cathedral.
It’s done all the time in churches. I cringed this summer when I saw a crowd of teenage Chinese tourists making pouty duck faces and flashing peace signs as they posed in front of an altar in a Cathedral. I doubt if they knew what it was and I doubt if they were trying to be rude. However why visit a place if you don’t know what it is?
My husband and I were in Seoul with our children, going to the museums etc., and came upon a religious house. I walked in the front door, and over a hundred men jumped off the floor, and dashed for their shoes, for an out the door. I admit, I felt pretty powerful to cause such a scene, but I was not aware at that time, that women had to be tucked away upstairs, barely able to catch a glimpse of anything.
I think they were more than aware of the guidelines, this is just them trying to be ‘edgy’, ‘cool’, ‘rebellious’.
They’re already wearing the mosque-issued abayas. Presumably, what they were actually wearing wasn’t suitable. So I think we can pretty much be sure that they knew what the guidelines were by the point they took the photos.
That she lifted enough to show exposed ankle says it all for me. I thought she was caught accidentally steppping up causing the exposed skin. Not this. This was on purpose.
Ugh.
These clueless a$$holes have got a lot to learn and they’re so freaking dense that they’re probably gonna have to learn the hard way.
Oh my, they are kids. You never did anything to protest authority?
+1
They’re not THAT young. They are stupid, rude, and entitled. I doubt they know enough about the culture to stage a legitimate protest, and it’s beyond disgusting that they acted up in a place of worship.
I am so, so tired of the Kardashian/Beiber/tween talentless trash.
Kids? No, most of them are over 18. They should conduct themselves like adults and not take stupid pictures in a mosque. I’m 20 and have enough common sense not to anything this disrespectful. Then again, if my mother saw me do this, she would grab me by my hair and drag me back to America.
Lol, if what you said was true what part of that excuses them from being insulted and looked down on?
You don’t travel abroad to protest authority, unless you’re part of some legitimate humanitarian movement protesting a genuine human rights violation. Otherwise, this is just typical ugly American/westerner behavior that treats other cultures as quaint relics to be mocked not appreciated.
Yes, they are kids (but not so young kids) and they are still stupid. I bet they’ll become older and they’ll be still stupid.
“They should conduct themselves like adults and not take stupid pictures in a mosque.”
You consider – covering women up, because otherwise men would forget their manners around them – adult behavior?
Sorry I have no respect nor sympathy for religions like that.
Ugh, men are expected to be modest in houses of worship, as well. This particular example is not a feminist issue.
Agreed!
Good Point Betty. In many Cultures where there is very warm for example the middle east you don’t see men in shorts or t-shirts even in the street when it’s super hot they wear long pants and longsleeved shirts most of them.
Or they wear the footlong long “maledresses” kaftans –
And a friend of mine a man who travelled to India and figured it was so warm in Calcutta that he decided to go topless, he was told off by the locals both men and women to put on a top or tshirt!! They figured it was rude to walk in the city street topless for a man even though it was 40 degrees Celsius!
Selena is quite clearly deliberately flashing her ankle in every photo. Just makes her look silly, ignorant, stupid, irresponsible and childish – but I’m sure she’s lovely apart from that…
Yes. It’s deliberate. No question about it. It’s not as though she is doing some silly pose and her ankle just happened to show; the poses are centered around her ankle. For some reason, I’m genuinely pissed off.
Agree. She’s part of PMK’s stable isn’t she? It was all preplanned to cause controversy. Even religion and culture aren’t safe from these idiots. They’re all incapable of being embarrassed or ashamed of their actions. I just can’t…… SMH
Stupid.
This is a religious place and it deservs respect.
Stupid thing to do.
Very childish and try hard. Seriously. If you can’t, or don’t want to respect and follow the guidelines, then don’t go. I’m sure there were other places they could’ve taken their obnoxious pictures in.
EXACTLY: Like if you are gonna go to a place and not bother appreciating/respecting it/going by the rules: Why Bother?? Just go to another random pretty building..Ugh
Obnoxious behavior seems to be what they all specialize in, if it doesn’t require too much energy and bring negative attention to themselves then they don’t do it.
I visited some mosques in Egypt and Jordania some years ago ( before the Arabic spring) and the women tourists had to cover her hair,neck,shoulders,arms and legs before to enter.I guess it’s different according to the countries
but it’s a form of respect for a place some people consider sacred. Like the Vatican.
Yes when i visited the Taj Mahal they make you wear some plastic material over your shoes.
If the same exact standard is required for men (which I don’t know. Most people are saying that only women are required to cover up this way) then there’s no sexism at play and yes, it’s just about respect.
it differs even in towns. 7 years ago i was on a big Egypt trip with fellow students. It was part of culture and religion studies…means we visited at least 2 religious places and museums every day. An endless 😉 series of mosques, churches, coptic monasteries and synagoges (Alexandra-Kairo-Hurghada-Assuan-Sues). I always wore a headscarf at day because of the sun and all the sand. Headscarfs aren´t only for religious function. At dusk we ditched the headcarfs and mixed with the locals to celebrate Ramadan 🙂
There was only one mosque where we women (despite already wearing headscarfs!) had to cover in such ugly green hooded sack coats and they gave us sack-shoes so we don´t make the carpets dirty. We were allowed only in the female part of the mosque while the male students only could enter the male entrance (without covering up of course). It felt strange, the day before we visited the big Ibn-Tulun Mosque and it was so casual. The people there told us that one of the James Bond movies was filmed there. They were so proud and showed us the exact points where Rogar Moore stood LOL.
@Elly – you bring up a great point. So many customs/practices we now consider religious are actually borne of practicality. What starts as a practical/logical choice is repeated through generations and eventually assigned a new meaning – one based more on the tradition/repetition than the actual reason the practice was started.
Why is she flashing her ankle like THAT? Do celebrities take selfies in church? Just wondering…
Makes me appreciate my own church where I can show my ankles and leave my hair uncovered without fear of causing offense.
But do you take photos like that when you’re in a church (even if your hair is uncovered and you’re wearing a skirt)? I guess it could happen, but I never really hear of anyone doing that.
Exactly.
@ Minne – Don’t head off to Rome then, since St Peter’s (and most other Italian churches) will throw you out if your shoulders and/or knees are showing.
@ perplexed – I understand why people would want to take photos. Religious buildings are also historical and/or cultural tourist attractions. But photos deliberately flouting the dress code or making stupid signs? That’s just ignorance.
Yeah, I should have clarified. Taking photos in and of itself isn’t weird to me. The kinds of gestures they’re making in these photos do look pretty odd in ANY place of worship, however.
When people mentioned ankle flashing, I thought maybe some accident happened where a bit of ankle/leg got caught by a paparazzo or something. But the pose she’s doing here seems like something you’d do at the MTV Video Awards, not at a mosque or at the Vatican.
but you can’t go in places like Saint Peter in Rome wearing miniskirts and flip-flops it’s disrespectful. I’ve visited churchs in italy that borrow foulards for women who aren’t dressed appropriately. I don’t see the big deal.
And I am an atheist.
Exactly, it’s 2015 not 1515. Sorry I don’t approve anybody or any institution telling me I have to cover up because I am a woman.
Agreed! (Again).
Don’t visit their sacred places then! What is so difficult to understand here? Different countries and cultures have different views of appropriate behavior and all have places that are important to them and their history. If you are not willing to respect those just stay away!
If you go to the restaurant you don’t put your shoes on the table because it’s rude.
If you invite a vegan friend for dinner you don’t give him/her a steak.
Being free and independent doesn’t mean you are allowed to be rude, it means being respectful of someone else rules traditions and beliefs.
It’s not that difficult.
Then stay out. They don’t let men in wearing shorts and tank tops. It’s all about respect.
I visited many mosques where also my husband had to cover up in a borrowed robe before entering, so it’s not just the women.
Stay out then. You may not agree with it, but it does not give you the right to disrespect another’s religious tradition.
I’m assuming you are a Christian. I don’t know in other Christian churches but in Catholicism there is a dress code (although this is rarely strictly followed nowadays). As a woman you’re supposed to wear a dress/skirt which covers your knees, and the shirt or upper part of what you’re wearing must cover al the chest, the back and shoulders, your sleeves must cover your elbows, and you must wear a veil (or “mantilla”, or something which covers your hair).
In places like Roma and Firenze, they rent you sort of a plastic raincoat for you to enter the churches if you’re not properly dress.
Anyway, if they can’t follow rules or respect other people cultures and beliefs, they just shouldn’t go.
I think it depends on what country you live in and the customs of the parish when it comes to Catholicism. I’m Catholic and I’ve seen Americans attending mass in the US in jeans and T-shirts.
I’m also from a very very Catholic country and wile people usually dress up for Mass, no one will say anything if you come in a T-shirt and jeans, especially kids, teenagers or young adults.
In my LatinAmerican country (majorly catholic), people at coastal towns, or even in my city, can go to mass in tank tops and not too tiny shorts.
In other cities, usually more conservative or colder you can go wearing sleeveless tshirts, dresses and blouses, or miniskirts, but there re some churches where they have a sign asking people to cover up, or not wear shorts.
Also covering up women’s heads is a thing of the past here. Some (very) elderly women do wear something, but it is absolutely uncommon. Also, it is disrespectful if men or people in general wear caps or hats inside.
When I visited Europe, in particular Rome and Venice I had to remember carrying something to cover up, but I understand these are some of the most important catholic churches.
I still don’t like that women are separated or have to cover up as if we are less than men. I would try to accept it in religious places, but to go around in the streets… no, I do not think I’d ever visit one of those extreme countries where women cannot even drive or ask for directions because “her man” should be the one doing the talking. No way.
Sorry, I guess I didn’t make my point clear. I wanted to say there is a dress code in Catholicism although nobody really follows it.
I’m Mexican, and I’ve been to mass in various cities of my country, I’ve seen people in tops and shorts in Cancun or Puerto Vallarta. And women with huge cleavage here in Mexico City. I just pointed the dress code because the original poster.
After Vatican II happened in the 1960s, women were not required to cover their hair anymore. My mom would talk about how they had doilies at the entrance for women if they weren’t wearing something on their head when she was a little girl. But it changed and so now Catholic women do not have to cover their head in church and those that do are simply following a local cultural custom. In North America, women will normally not wear anything on their head unless they are very elderly.
I am torn on this because while they are acting like idiots, I also do not support anything where women have to cover up even more than men. Sexism is sexism even if religion is used to justify it.
I still see women wearing mantillas at Mass, particularly at Easter. Usually older, but I’m also starting to see a lot of younger women do it too. Head covering for women in a church, mosque or synagog is not sexist. A woman’s hair is considered to be her “crowning glory” and in church, nothing is supposed to compete with God’s glory. Hence, women cover their hair out of deference. Vatican II changed that, but still many traditionalists (Vatican II wasn’t universally popular) wear the mantilla (more in Europe, South America and the Philippines than in the US). In many Protestant churches – in particular predominantly African American churches – you will see the women wearing hats. Again, this is a sign of respect.
Then that is your choice and it is worthy of respect, but would you not offer the same respect to someone else?
Oh who cares.
The people who live in that country and practice that religion do! And your attitude is exactly part of the reason why they hate Westerners so much. Total lack of respect for their beliefs and culture. Do some of the lack respect for ours? Yes. Does it make it right to walk into their house of worship and deliberately flout their rules. NO.
oh, stop.
Disrespectful to other cultures in any way isn’t good, specially when you are in their country. The expression “ugly American” in other countries exists because of the likes of her!
Let’s not justify stupid stereotypes just because these idiots happen to be American.
Yeaaa… but when stereotypes are true…
I’ve overheard loud mouthy Americans at every tourist attraction (and underground train system) I’ve ever visited (not exaggerating). Their conversations are so so loud and obnoxious it ruins the ambience. Not a single other person wants to listen to your idiotic conversation!
Are their Americans that are quiet? Sure, probably. Perhaps they can plead with their annoying counterparts to stop being so obtuse in public and ruining their good name.
Sorry but all tourists are loud and obnoxious. I’ve lived in an American city for 18 years and I live along the most touristy part of the city, where huge tour buses unleash loads on loud, obnoxious foreigners with no sense of self-awareness. Sorry to break it to you, but groups of excitable people tend to be loud and annoying, regardless of where they’re from. But the again, it’s always been cooler and more socially acceptable to perpetuate the stereotype about American tourists.
“Perhaps they can plead with their annoying counterparts to stop being so obtuse in public and ruining their good name. ”
Yes because as an American, I’m responsible for the behavior of the 316 million other people that live in my country.
I’m in New York and I’ve encountered obnoxious and loud tourists in every language.
You want obnoxious? Try Chinese tourists in tour groups. They are all over Paris and incredibly rude. I was pushed off the sidewalk more than once and they made visiting the Louvre horrible, taking selfies all over the place, pushing and shoving and talking at the top of their lungs.
I’m with you, Kitten. SO mind-boggling how people (Dan, specifically) can stereotype an entire nation based off a few examples, and do so while criticizing ignorant behavior.
Kitten – OMFG, PREACH. So many young liberals are afraid to sound even VAGUELY pro-American about ANY topic, but the fact of the matter is, Americans are condemned for being “annoying” abroad way too harshly. If we were going to hold everyone to the same standard, then pretty much every country on the planet would be seen as a bunch of “ugly _______s.”
When I was in the Philippines recently, I was out for a long dinner with friends at a place that attracted a lot of foreigners. The Americans around me were incredibly polite and quiet, whereas a table of about 20 Brits were SOOOOOOO hardcore obnoxious that the host came over to tell them to knock it off or leave. Did that make me say, “classic ugly Brits!”? Heck no. It made me think, “oh my God, what an obnoxious group of PEOPLE.” Not British people, PEOPLE.
@Katija – I’ve never met young liberals that are afraid to be pro-American… in any sense. Those that I’ve come across give credit where it’s due, and discredit where it isn’t. You painted with a broad brush, while telling others not to paint with a broad brush.
So true Kitten! I live a city that draws domestic and international tourists, and you are 100% correct. Tourists from all over the world have the potential to be obnoxious, but you’re right, it comes with the excitement of traveling.
Kris Jenner needs to talk to her newest recruit into her coven of ” International Hostesses”
No 1. rule do not call attention to your “host” …That group is in Dubai for New Years week “hosting parties” for Rich Sheiks of Araby….in the same way Pam Anderson, Lindsay Lohan and Kim Kardashian and lots of other “stars” do to make quick money….and Kris Jenner gets her 10 % …..Its a shame Selena Gomez dropped her momma as manager and signed her soul away to Kris Jenner….she can wave her career good bye .
Is Kris Jenner really Selena’s manager now?
She meet her in Paris..during the Fashion Week , just after Selena fired her mother then suddenly Selena is Kendall’s good friend …and showing up in photos with her and Kylie…..going on trips with them and parties…..and Selena has had No singing or acting jobs since then…..Her career has just nosedived….I believe Justin Bieber is signed on with Jenner also ..or a limited contract where he is used to push her girl. She latches onto the falling stars the ones that are disparate and Selena has been sliding downhill fast every since she aged out of the teeny shows and didn’t make the change to adult music like Katie Perry and Taylor Swift…and got into Justin Bieber party crowd…. She was willing to sign her soul over to the devils handmaiden to bring in the money ……
Right, never smart to offend the clients….dumbasses!
Didn’t Selena just release an album & new video? And I think she performed it on at least one award show. I’m not sure anyone could do tremendous things for Selena’s singing or acting career since I believe her talents are pretty modest. If she were serious about those things, she’d step away for a year or two & take steps to improve her musicianship and her acting. But maybe she does just want to make some money & get out of dodge?? I do think KJ is a detestable person who drags down anyone associated with her, but she is best friends with Shelli Azoff, wife of music mogul Irving Azoff, so she does have connections that could be useful to someone in the music industry. I guess it’s possible that’s what convinced Selena to sign with her & perhaps to go along with her shenanigans. Hey, even Harry Styles PR stunted with Kendall Jenner thanks to the Azoff connection.
I’m glad most of the comments so far are just chiding Selena for her immature actions and not going on about “omg but it’s just a ankle! Soo regressive!” (Though I did see one about someone being thankful they could flash their ankle at church and not cause offence.. There’s always one lol). I’m not Muslim or religious in general, (British woman fyi) but I have lived in Abu Dhabi for the past 10 years and you know what? I can wear shorts, I can drink, I can go out, I can drive.. It’s a really modern, fun place for a young person to live in, but you just gotta have a little respect for the few cultural/religious parts of the country you’re living in/visiting. It sucks that as a side result of Selena’s latest brat action, Abu Dhabi’s going to get a bad rap in some peoples’ minds.
The fact that you have to rejoice that you can wear shorts, drive and drink, and only have to cover yourself from head to toe as if your hair and body were shameful “sometimes” is enough to prevent me from wanting to live there. I want to live in a country where that’s taken for granted. But to each their own.
Well said GNAT
But that’s your choice! Just because you don’t understand the choice of other people and you personally aren’t feeling it, why are you so insistent on attacking anyone who doesn’t have a problem with it? I bet you have never even been to Abu Dhabi. This is the problem with people’s perception of the Middle East that we have to deal with every day. I totally agree with you that there are a lot of issues that need to be dealt with in the Middle East, oppression and corruption in so many ways, but Malala was shot in the face (in Pakistan, also not Abu Dhabi) for wanting to GO TO SCHOOL, not her clothes. Feminism is about choices some women choose to wear bikinis and some choose to wear beautiful Abayas (even Chanel makes them in Dubai) abayas are just long gowns they don’t cover your head or face. Why is our choice to be modest in our dress and have that be acceptable as the norm so offensive to you? The naked female form doesn’t offend me, and neither does the clothed. Please focus on what the real issues are if you are trying to help. This is so condescending and “American way of life is right, and if it is different I WISH PEOPLE WOULD STAND UP AND CHANGE IT.” Smh.
I don’t understand this comment. The expectation of modesty and covering up is not about the hair and body being shameful, just as LeeAnn Rimes posting a million pictures of herself in a bikini is not about pride and self-confidence. How is it wrong to have different cultural expectations of how to dress at sacred places?
To ?, Angela and Sixer
Yes, I believe the Catholic Church should get its act together about women, too. Head covering and body covering stems from a belief that the female is inferior to the male, or that men cannot view the female body without having “shameful” thoughts, or that man is the image of God and woman is inferior to man.
From “Catholic Traditions”
The veil is a beautiful symbol of the natural order affirmed by Scripture: “Man was not created for woman, but the woman for the man” (1 Cor. 11:9). The man was not to cover his head “because he is the image and glory of God.” But “the woman is the glory of the man because she came from the man… Thus, the woman is under the power of her husband.” That women should remain veiled in church while men do not is one symbol of this harmonious natural order establishing the husband’s authority over the wife.
So yeah, I have a problem with it. You can couch it as modesty, you can call it respect,you can call it a personal choice. Arab countries have the worst record on women’s rights in the entire world that I know of. America is not perfect and I never said it was. But when you choose to submit to covering yourself, you are saying that you’re less than men. You may not think that’s what you’re saying, and that may not be your intention, but you are wearing a symbol of women’s inferiority to men, and I would be willing to bet that’s what the men in your life believe.
I’m not trying to attack anyone. But by continually supporting the belief that men are godly and women are less than, you are hurting ALL women, everywhere. Yourself most of all.
We were typing at the same time, GNATmeister.
I completely got where you were coming from. This subject becomes a sensitive one really quickly because there are xenophobic people who will automatically jump to criticism when it comes to anything related to the Muslim culture.
FTR, I completely agree with you.
Just let me tell you something .we live in a big world and what makes it very interesting is the different lifestyles cultures.this why people travel to enjoy the deference to live new experiences.imagine if we all have the same lifestyle the same tradestions.what a boring place the world would be.
the most important thing is People have to respect the deference and don’t judge each other.
Ps.sorry for my English it’s not my first language
GNAT, Kitten
You know I love you both, but I think you’re missing the point here.
Both Catholic and Muslim places of worship have (roughly equivalent) dress codes for visitors of BOTH sexes, as do many synagogues and temples. This isn’t at all a gender issue. You can live in Abu Dhabi and dress how you like. Tamara has already told you that very clearly. Do you not believe her or something? It’s an issue of a dress code for a sacred place that applies to both genders. No more, no less.
We can talk about the position of women across the world. I’m all for it. But let’s not confuse it with a bunch of entitled teenagers showing contempt for a SACRED PLACE.
Personally, I’m not interested in modesty. I belong to the Scandinavian tradition on that one and my personal attitudes to nudity would probably be seen as de trop by most Americans. As would my personal views on religious belief, which I find nonsensical, whatever the name of the deity. Apparently, a majority of Americans think I’m worse than a rapist for saying that.
But I don’t cast scorn on people who don’t see it that way. If I go to Italy and want to look at the art and architecture, much of which is contained in houses of worship, I cover up. Same in a Muslim area if there is a religious site I want to visit.
@martin
Your English is lovely. I do not expect or want everyone to have the same traditions and cultures. It would be very boring, indeed. There are many American customs or behaviors that I find objectionable. I am not intending to judge the Muslim religion. Everyone has the right to their beliefs, and the covering up of women’s heads and bodies is not unique to the Muslim religion. What I am “judging” if you insist on that word, is the intention behind the covering, and I stand by what I said. I expect it will offend some people, and I’m not a person who likes to offend people. But I think this is important.
@Sixer
I think you are missing my point. I think what Selena did was disrespectful and childish. I think you should follow the dress code if you go to a place that requires one. I’m simply saying that I object to the reason behind the dress code, and I wouldn’t go to a place that required me to wear a symbol of the female’s inferiority to the male. That is inconsistent with my beliefs. As for men having a dress code, it’s not the same. They do not have to cover their heads and bodies out of deference to MEN, but to God.
@Sixer-I am in no way, shape, of form defending what Selena and those other sh*tbags did. If I went to a mosque I would absolutely abide by their dress code.
“And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband’s fathers, or their sons, or their husband’s sons, or their brothers, or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to Allah together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful”
— Qur’an, Surah 24 (An-Nur), Verse 31
^^It’s this that I question. Not the dresscode itself, but what it stems from.
@Sixter
I don’t think they are showing contempt for a sacred place. They are making fun of a ridiculous dress code and rightfully so!
@Good Names All Taken and @?: I’m all for a woman’s right to wear whatever she wants, and that includes modesty. When it’s chosen it’s not a problem. I don’t think others should stop wearing the hijab or the abaya just because others find such things restrictive or repressive any more than I think other women should have to stop wearing revealing or sexy clothing just because some others find it objectifying. If a woman or a feminist finds a way of dressing repressive or objectifying, she’s free not to wear it herself, but I don’t think that’s license to tell others not to wear it, shame them for wearing it, or assume that they don’t believe in equality for wearing it.
Since we live in a world that has been patriarchal for thousands of years, just about anything a woman could choose to wear can possibly be traced back to patriarchy, sexism, oppression, or male desires and expectations for female physical appearance in some way. That’s part of the reason why I find feminist wars over what women should and should not be wearing unproductive. Is a woman not supposed to wear something she wants to wear just because it can somehow be traced back to those things? Clothing-policing will not break or challenge patriarchy. What would be most challenging to patriarchy when it comes to clothing would be women being free to do what they want with their physical appearances. Just because a way of dressing may have a certain origin doesn’t at all mean that that’s what the woman wearing it believes or is saying.
But, I also think that when a rule in a place is being applied to women but not men, people have every right to want to take a critical look at that rule, question it, or challenge it. Which is why I’m also ok with people pushing the limits when it comes to dress codes.
This. And what you said lower down GNAT. All religious requirements for women to cover themselves stem from the misogyny that was the early Church/Religious movements. Women were inferior and shameful temptresses according to the Old Testament that is central to the ‘Big 3’. This is why having to cover up for ANY religious site is total BS and based on the centuries old repression of women. Just because some women over the millennia have developed a sort of Stockholm Syndrome about their oppression doesn’t make them any more oppressed.
I agree, GNAT. The majority of commenters on here are saying it’s a place of worship, follow the rules, etc. kind of have me surprised. Don’t get me wrong, I do think their poor behaviour and tacky photos with crazy faces and hands up in the air is ignorant (would someone take a picture like that in the Louvre or another museum, etc? No. It’s disrespectful). You go somewhere like this, you act proper and how some respect. However, maybe it’s because I’m an atheist/non-believer that I just no longer agree with the “because it’s a church/mosque, the SEPARATE rules for women should be followed”. My family is Russian Orthodox, and women are basically treated like sh*t in the Orthodox church. There is a separate set of rules just for how women should behave when entering an Orthodox church (no going behind the alter because women have menstrual cycles, etc). There are no rules like that for men, and quite frankly, I don’t care (yes, I realize that is harsh sounding) if you are religious, I am tired of the apologies made for “culture” that purposely excludes women or treats them as inferior. Now, I do not know what the exact rules are for the mosque, but can anyone tell me if it is improper for a man to show his ankle there?
I’m in agreement with Otaku fairy. With everything she said.
The hijab (or veil, or, or, or) can be any number of things. It can of course – and often is – a reflection of repression, and even more often of current and historical patriarchy. But it can also be a political statement: an FU to Islamophobes or an outward sign of resistance. It can be a fashion statement. Some women team a hijab with tight jeans as a feminist subversion of modesty. It can be a beloved attachment to tradition.
And modesty itself is a much misunderstood term. Many people see it as an anti-consumerist concept. In such cases, western “fashion victims” are perceived as the real gender prisoners.
I’m not saying any of this is necessarily correct or desirable. It just is.
I keep thinking about the interesting discussions on here concerning Iggy Whatshername and cultural appropriation and White Feminism patronising the issues of black women in America. I seldom contribute because it’s not my experience. But I do read and, hopefully, learn. This is the same thing. Western saviours aren’t needed – in fact, most of the women being painted with a single broad brush here are very well aware that the choices for women in majority Muslim countries are significantly reduced in relation to the amount of Western interest they attract.
None of this is to say that I don’t think there are gigantic problems. I just think the starting point for any conversation should be the thoughts and feelings and self-assigned identities of the women themselves.
I’ve never been to Europe so I don’t know what the requirements are in European Catholic churches, but I haven’t worn a head covering in an American Catholic church in decades. Almost nobody does any more.
I always enjoy your comments, Sixer, always articulate and thought-provoking.
“None of this is to say that I don’t think there are gigantic problems. I just think the starting point for any conversation should be the thoughts and feelings and self-assigned identities of the women themselves.”
I completely agree with this in theory, but implementing this approach in a patriarchal culture can be problematic. One woman being perfectly comfortable with the Muslim style of dress doesn’t erase the woman who is completely uncomfortable with that style of dress, but is too fearful to voice her opposition.
A patriarchal system favors the agreeable and silences the dissenter, like most social constructs actually. It rewards obedience, and punishes the resistence.
I’m reminded of the planned college screenings of the “Honor Diaries”, a film about Islamic culture that gives a female voice to the right to education, forced marriage, and female genital mutilation.
As soon as The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) got wind that several universities wanted to screen the film, they claimed it was Islamophobic (a common tactic used to quiet any criticism of Islam) and the colleges instantly caved and shut down the screenings. So something that could have illuminated some of the very real atrocities happening against women in other countries was completely abandoned in order to avoid offending people.
As I was saying above, sometimes I think the fear of being labeled “intolerant” or “Xenophobic” effectively silences the discussion and prevents us from shining a light on very atrocious cultural practices such as honor violence or depriving young women of an education.
To me, it’s not an indictment of a religion or a culture to criticize aspects of it. I get that it’s a personal decision, but burka or no burka, it’s the lack of options for women that is really the heart of the problem for me.
And of course you’re right that it’s not my place to tell another culture what they should do, but I’ll always see it as my responsibility to side with the women who aren’t granted the rights that they deserve. I’ll always stand with the fighters.
PS- Thanks so much for all the bday wishes, my intelligent and wonderful celebitchy friends! 🙂
@ Kitten – all’s I’d say to that is to be very careful that you’re not making gigantic, ethnocentric assumptions about who the fighters actually are and what their fight actually is. You know?
I’m going to bow out now because I am a middle class, white, atheist, Western woman – albeit one who grew up in a mixed white/Asian area and who has many Muslim friends, some of whom wear hijab and some of whom don’t for all the reasons under the sun – and am coming perilously close to speaking for other people while trying to tell others not to speak for other people. I shall hush my mouth now!
Fair enough, and maybe you’re right, Sixer, but I only know what I know. I can’t speak for another woman’s experience which is why I always frame my comments as a personal opinion and leave the door open for others to educate me. I’m not invested in trying to assert how right I am, I’m just giving my viewpoint based on my own (sometimes limited) knowledge like everyone else here. I’m certainly not an expert on religions.
I’m not scared of giving my opinion because I’m not scared of people telling me I’m wrong. Even if people disagree with me, it’s still a worthwhile conversation.
In regards to your other comment, I’ve read the counterarguments about a kind of freedom being found in the Muslim dress code and I can understand that.
Eh, perhaps in the end, it’s simply impossible for me to separate the Western atheist part of me in order to see things truly objectively.
Anyway, thanks again for all your opinions, everyone. Always a lot of food for thought around here.
I just read back and if I sounded in any way like I was snotting on you, I prostrate with apologies. It was just my opinion, too. I feel confident in giving it to you, Kitten, because I know your ears are always open and you’re never close-minded. Wasn’t intending to be strident about it, though!
Aww GNAT. Be fair. Tamara wasn’t saying that! She was saying that daily life for her is NORMAL in Abu Dhabi and she ISN’T prevented from doing any of this stuff you want to be taken for granted.
Would you say the same about Rome? People dress how they want but not in churches. Do you think St Peter’s should get its act together, too?
And besides, it’s not as though a man can go into a mosque with shorts on. Their ankles also have to be covered. They also have to wear long sleeves. They also are forbidden skin tight clothes. It’s only the headcovering for women that’s any different.
See above.
But the idea behind women covering up is…what, that men are wild animals with no self-control?
I think it’s right to respect another culture’s customs, but I also don’t think it’s wrong to question the origin of those customs. Sometimes, they stem from a place of repression and inequality.
I think GNAT was simply saying that it doesn’t really appeal to her. I guess I just didn’t see the condemnation and judgment that everyone else saw in her comment–it seemed more of an observation to me.
On a personal level, I would find it difficult to deal with complete strangers having the ability to dictate how I dress.
“If you are wearing something in Dubai that offends someone else who makes a point of telling you, we would suggest you very politely apologise, fix the offending item or at least say you will go and fix it immediately, and thank the person for pointing out the error of your ways.”
http://www.dubaifaqs.com/dress-code-in-dubai.php
Of course, Kitten. But really, that isn’t the topic here. I’ve got a long response, which I’ll type out if I get time – need to get out and buy my daddy a birthday present first, though. It’s tomorrow. Stupid day for a birthday, so soon after Christmas, and I always forget to buy him something beforehand! Back later if I get time.
I like Kitten’s and GNAT’s comments on this. I haven’t been to a muslim country for over 20 years, and have no intention to do so again, and also, I don’t go to churches when in Italy. They have the right to have their customs and/or rules and I have the right to be myself and avoid them.
This is a tricky subject. I don’t know if GNAT’s and Kitten’s comments and facts are accurate. My mom has a muslim friend and she is very proud of her choice of clothing; they live in spain and regularly she doesn’t cover herself up that much but when in Ramadan she uses all of it and she says that it isn’t that the female body is shameful but that they have to cover it up because it is sacred, specially the hair, so I really don’t know what to think. Do their sacred scriptures really say what GNAT tells us and they are being mislead or do we really know little about that religion and should butt off?
Let’s not throw the world “Muslim country” around so easily. Thing are vastly vastly different in countries like Bosnia and Herzegovina ( partially Muslim) or Turkey and in countries like Saudi Arabia or Pakistan.
Diana B
The scriptures I quoted were from the Bible and in response to Sixer’s question about whether I objected to Catholic’s requirement in Rome that women cover their heads. Which I do. I believe that all covering of women stems from the belief that women are inferior to men, that men were created in God’s image and women are a danger to men’s ability to be pure because women produce lustful thoughts in men. It’s a lot more complicated than that, but all I’m trying to say is that I would not choose to go to a place that required me to cover my head and body, regardless of the justification for it. Look at the way Arab women are treated in their own countries and then tell me if you believe they are covered up because they are “sacred.”
Maybe I will take your funny advice, though, after all this time, and “butt off.” Lol
But this is sort of my problem with religion to begin with: the sacredness surrounding it makes it easy for people to just shut down any valuable discussion.
“This is my religion, you don’t have to like it, but respect my culture.”
I didn’t think GNAT and I were disrespecting by having an opinion. I’m not telling anyone what to believe or what Islam means to them nor am I intending to shame women for their clothing choice. Wear whatever you want, ladies, furrealzies.
It’s too bad because I thought there was an interesting discussion to be had here, but once religion is involved, it gets personal really quickly.
Anyway, I do apologize if I offended anyone, but I’m not going to change my mind about religious traditions that stem from oppression.
FTR, I level the same criticism at say, purity balls or the Quiverfull dress code for women. Hell, the Quiverfull movement is in direct and conscious opposition to feminist calls for gender equality and marriage equity.
I guess as an atheist no religion has ever made sense or resonated with me, just like I’m sure my atheism will never resonate with religious people.
And you know what? It doesn’t have to make sense to me. I really do respect everyone’s right to believe what they want even if I don’t personally agree with it.
I just wish we could discuss it without people feeling like I’m personally attacking them, because that truly isn’t my intention and I really am open to hearing about Muslim women’s experiences in their country. Educate me.
@Charlie-Point taken and I appreciate that you made that distinction.
@Sixer-my birthday is the day AFTER Christmas 😀
Oh, Goodnames, I wasn’t saying that you should butt off (You got my meaning right? hahahaha, english is not my first lenguage, sorry), I was just wondering “out loud” if we all should just stop meddling in. I can only talk from my experience. Personally, the muslim dress code gives me the the hibbie jibbies, but I have not been raised in that religion. The only person I know that is muslim is my mom’s friend and she explained it to us that way so I really don’t know what to think
Agree Kitten. It’s just nearly impossible to have a rational discussion once religion gets involved. I am also sorry that my beliefs are offensive to some people, but they are still my beliefs.
Happy belated birthday, Kitten!
Diana B, oh, I know what you were saying and just thought it was very cute how you said it. From now on, I will tell people to butt off! And I agree with your sentiments and Kitten’s – everyone has a right to their beliefs and I didn’t mean to be disrespectful of that, in spite of my disagreement with it.
@?
I didn’t mean to tell you what you were thinking, though it did certainly come across that way, I can see that. I’m truly sorry if I hurt your feelings.
GoodNamesAllTaken : “The scriptures I quoted were from the Bible and in response to Sixers question about whether I objected to Catholic’s requirement in Rome that women cover their heads.”
Vatican require that tourists cover their heads? I didn’t know. 🙁
@KITTEN
What the hell that has to do with the subject we are Discussing .you have no right to talk about my religion this way Damnt .
@ martin-I actually do have every right to talk about ANY religion just like anyone else, and you have every right to defend your religion.
And the oppression of women has EVERYTHING to do with this discussion, putting the onus on women to remain hidden from men, lest men get tempted is entirely patriarchal.
Sorry, but your opinion on this matter isn’t somehow more valid than mine or *sacred* and untouchable, simply because your opinion is religious-based.
@Kitten – Happy belated birthday from me too! I got him a Boardwalk Empire DVD boxset. He loves that show. It’s his first birthday without my Mum, so will take him out to lunch tomorrow.
Am replying above as I’d say the same thing on both strands of the thread.
I used to be an organist at several Catholic Churches in Canada in addition to going to church as a kid prior to that. Not once did I ever need to worry about my clothing much less wear a veil. There was no difference in terms of what my brother wore versus what I did. My point is that any restrictions imposed on women in Rome or the Vatican are because of the local Italian custom and not a Catholic edict.
I could be wrong but I don’t believe that Islamic women have a choice to not wear a hijab or more when they enter a mosque.
Catholicism still has issues regarding women and I am not excusing that, but if we are bringing Catholicism into this, I just needed to point out that there is a big difference and women who cover their hair are doing it because of a custom and not a specific catholic rule.
Nic919 -fair point
@Tamara: “I’m glad most of the comments so far are just chiding Selena for her immature actions and not going on about “omg but it’s just a ankle! Soo regressive!”
We all have the right to our own opinion on this matter, though. You have the right to support the dress code and be disappointed with Selena for violating a dress code in a religious place, and others have the right to take issue with the fact that it may be a rule that’s applied only to women and not to men, find outrage over a woman in a hijab showing her ankle in the mosque silly and regressive, and be ok with people for lightly violating restrictive dress codes. There’s some validity to both opinions. We don’t have to (and shouldn’t) try to force our western way of doing things on other countries, but we also don’t have to agree with and blindly support every single belief or rule a building, institution, or part of the world has just religion or culture are the reasons given for it either.
I just wish we would have the same right to our own view when criticizing certain female pop stars who constantly grind on stage and in their videos in a thong and keep flashing their bits in IG. But no, that’s apparently “slut shaming” and wrong. Women have the right to own their sexuality even when it’s done for the male gaze in attempt to make money. Well some people believe in not expressing your sexuality in places of worship and I agree with that.
@MP: False equivalent, and you know it. I’m not criticizing women for choosing to wear the hijab and practice modesty. I’m saying that when something is made into a RULE, and that rule only applies to one gender, people are going to want to question it and challenge it and they have the right to that opinion. And this is not even about ‘expressing your sexuality’- it’s showing your ankles.
And don’t assume that the male gaze is the only reason behind female sexual immodesty, That’s about as illogical and insulting as saying women only practice modesty because men and religion tell them to. You don’t have to enjoy or participate in whatever choice a woman is making with her body, whether it’s modesty or immodesty, but that’s not an excuse for sexual bullying on either side or verbally abusing women for making choices with their body that you don’t like. That’s not feminism. You don’t get to decide what others do with their bodies.
I really don’t believe women in the Western world really have as much freedom as you seem to think. Or worth is increasingly measured by the size of our breasts, the slimness of our waist and our willingness to put them on display.
We inject poison into our faces, chemicals into our lips, foreign objects into our breasts and bottoms because we are so free and choose to do it, really? Who really chooses to mutilate their body if it didn’t come with clear benefits.
We are no more free than women in the cultures we look so easily down upon.
We just want to fit in to our surrounding world and yes make men think we are worth pursuing.
@MP: You originally brought up clothing choices and dance moves, not plastic surgery, which I view differently from clothing and dance moves. Just because there are people who base women’s worth on her perceived sex appeal doesn’t mean that the feminist solution is to limit what women wear, shame them for any and every physical appearance choice that’s seen as sexy, or turn feminism into a dress code movement, though, or that verbal abuse is justified.
There are also plenty of people even in our western world who base women’s worth, character, and respectability on her modesty- both her modesty in dress and dance as well as the kind of sex she has. Does that mean that we as feminists should go around shaming or verbally abusing women who practice some form of modesty or basically taking a “you can’t sit with us because you dress like that” approach to feminism?
Either stance is extreme and problematic because they both ignore the agency and rights of the women we’re attacking, and both are examples of the blame for women’s oppression being placed on what women do with their bodies. With any other marginalized group of people we liberal and feminist sorts know that it’s not right to point the finger at the oppressed for their oppression, but somehow with women we forget that. Both stances also ignore the fact that there are other reasons a woman might be modest or immodest that have nothing to do with a desperation for male approval.
All the money in the world but still so ignorant and clueless, would hate to live in their bubble . I can imagine the ignorance spewed behind closed doors about the rest of the world. I remember when I was studying in US someone actually asked me how I got there from Africa,if i actually swam and they were dead serious,mind boggling!
I see Gigi Haddid is with them in the group shot. It looks like she had her own covering–it’s different from the others. Her father is Muslim isn’t he? Mohammad Haddid. I wonder, if he is, his impression of this stunt? I don’t know if he’s devout, or even Muslim, but I would think she at least knows the basics, especially if she brought her own abaya.
This is up there with the grinning selfies taken in Auschwitz- just so tone-deaf and insensitive. She’s young so hopefully she’ll learn.
These pictures are so disrespectful. When you go to another respect the customs and don’t go there acting like you own the place.
So many celebrities in Dubai for NYE. Professional starf**ker Olivier Rousteing was there, so was Chanel Iman, and others…
I know others are bothered by what she did, but I’m not and see the act in an of itself as harmless. I think most of us have violated the dress code or rules on someone else’s property in some way. This is being treated differently from that probably because religion is the basis for the dress code, and since religion is on a bit of a pedestal people are more sensitive about her breaking the rule. If she had showed up in a bikini or something like that, or showed up wasted and acted a fool, I would see that as tacky and disrespectful. But to me the fact that she’s covered to the point of wearing a hijab- and she’s someone who doesn’t normally wear head coverings of any kind is respectful enough. I’m probably the wrong person to be talking about this though- I don’t have a problem with people challenging dress codes to begin with, whether the setting is religious, academic, or whatever. And if women are required to be covered from head to toe but the men are not, I have even less of a problem with it. Just my opinion.
I do not think it is enough to say religion is on a pedestal.
Anything take seriously and treated with respect is usually treated more carefully. This includes politics. I think the issue is when someone doesn’t personally respect something they have trouble seeing any need for respect from others. There’s many things I don’t agree with others doing but I will respect them. Lack of respect and empathy is what allows someone like Annie Lennox to disrespect Beyoncé because her view of feminism doesn’t match Annie’s personal beliefs. It doesn’t solve anything and merely creates new divides.
The intention behind this attack wasn’t harmless on Selena’s part. She wanted to flout these rules, not on her own terms but to go to someone else’s sacred place to insult them. That’s awful imo. She was not protesting. She was showing her own ignorance. She and her friends wore the correct clothing only to ‘get through the front door’ and then proceeded to insult the culture and people. Just as I wouldn’t like someone to call a woman a slut for wearing a bikini I wouldn’t like for intelligent and informed women to be mocked for holding what they choose to believe in as sacred.
She is not only representing herself, but in a way, she is representing her country, too! Imagine what the locals think of her: the stupid American girl, singer, person, etc. Always read about the customs of a country before visiting. I don’t believe Sel is THIS stupid and I think she flashed her ankle on purpose. It doesn’t take a genius to know that she is in a country where locals like women to be completely conservative. You can do better than this, Selena.
But it’s her job ONLY to care for her own behavior and how it reflects on herself. Does she really need to feel accountable for someone’s backward notion that her behavior honestly reflects upon a nation of over 300 million people? Who cares if the locals attribute her “Americanness” to her behavior? That’s just as nonsensical and ignorant as she’s behaving.
Definitely. I’m not arguing with your comment because you’re 100% correct. However, when someone goes to a foreign country, there are people that believe that they are a representation of it – whether they like it or not. All I’m asking is for Selena and other travelers to be aware of local customs in foreign areas. You could, unknowingly, be a participant in something illegal and that’s something no foreigner want to be part of in another country.
Cluelessness. Silly, but not serious. The mistake was done in ignorance, not malice. I once quite innocently wandered for a minute into the wrong area in a mosque and things could have spun out of control, the response so, well, bonkers. But they didn’t, calm was restored and everyone went about their day. But it was scary in that moment for me, because it ddin’t seem to matter that it was just an innocent mistake.
I think about half of the kids look fine. There always seem to be some less mature (or kids that don’t have parents that set an example) in a group. Give credit to those who didn’t act out and hope they set an example for the others.
Hi all. Long time lurker and no-commenter here. As a Muslim woman who chooses to cover her head, I’d just like to say…you all have floored me with your thoughtful, articulate and open minded responses. I don’t agree with everything here but boy do I appreciate how respectful the discussion is. Generally when I open up the comments section about any article related to Islam I can expect to see a massive amount of ignorant vitriol. CB people are a cut above the rest. 🙂
Was going to say exactly this! I’m muslim too and I thought people would say it isn’t a big deal, make islamophobic comments etc but it’s so nice to see most people are respectful of other cultures 🙂
Welcome guys. Stick around for a while. We’re a mostly friendly and rational group plus a few grouches.
Ah its not a big deal! Maybe in dubai but i was in mosques where you could see lots of female ankles. The arabs are a bit difficult with that but for the most muslims its not such a big deal. Go to any mosque and you will see covered women with tons of makeup in their face and barefoot with ankles. It depends on in which country you are. I dont like the arab rules they are crazy to me and im a muslim too but a european and thats a very big difference.
I swear, this girl is as stupid as she is untalented. A total, clueless idiot
Gang bang hand signs in front of a mosk. No comment.
She wanted attention, you gave her attention. She won.
Quite a win, may it keep her warm all her many cold nights.
In general, I believe that everyone should be respectful of the “house rules” of dress code and public behavior for places of worship for all religions as well as public places and municipalities. Selena & her companions were acting insensitively and behaving immaturely and disrespectful. They are also took a big risk in offending the Mosque and quite possibly hey could be breaking the laws in Dubai.
Flashing your ankle in a house of worship may not seem like a big deal in a free and open society but it can have much more serious implications and repercussions in other societies that are not as open. Back in the 80s Paul McCartney went to tour Japan with his band Wings and was very surprised when he was jailed for 8 days when pot was discovered in his luggage. If he had been anyone but a former Beatle and international celebrity, he would have done serious time.
Celebrities should also be aware that these selfies DO have a big impact on and can influence some of their “less enlightened” fans to engage in copycat behavior.
Back in 2002 the “Opie and Anthony” shock jocks who at the time had a show on WNEW radio in NYC, had an on-air content in which they urged couples to go into St. Patrick’s Cathedral on 5th Ave. and have sex. A Virginia couple in their 30s took them up on it and Opie & Anthony dispatched an employee to act as look-out and also provide on-air commentary while the couple did the deed!
Not surprisingly, there was widespread outrage and the couple and the comedian who was onsite and providing commentary were all arrested. The FCC ended up fining the station over $300 thousand for the stunt; WNEW fired Opie & Anthony AND probably most shockingly, several months later, the 38 year old man who was arrested and charged with public lewdness, died suddenly of a heart attack while awaiting trial.
I visited the state mosque in Kuala Lumpur some years ago. Arms covered, shoulders covered, legs covered, head covered and shoes off.
If you can’t respect the customs of a foreign country, stay the hell home. Like it or not you are a representative of your own country when you are overseas, and if you act like an ill-mannered boor you just make your compatriots look bad.
Yes, I went there in the 80s, and I think I just had to wear a scarf on my head and what I was wearing was ok. I went all over Malaysia with my boyfriend and we had some very interesting experiences, were guests of a high ranking Muslim (he flew us to his estate in his private plane). My boyfriend went into the restroom for men there and said there were pictures of naked Hollywood actresses, tons of them! But he and his wives were very nice to us. The only place we got into a little trouble was we were walking through a marketplace and laughing a lot (this guy I was dating was super funny) and some man came out and started yelling at us for laughing. We explained we were laughing about a situation at home (United States) and meant no disrespect to anyone in Malaysia, but it caused an uncomfortable scene. But this is why I said upthread I wasn’t going to travel to any more Muslim countries, which bothered someone. I have already seen the ones I wanted to see and have no interest in the glitz of Dubai or Abu Dhabi, and don’t want to put myself in any situation that could cause trouble. And non Muslim visitors to those places do get into trouble, all the time. Check it out. I don’t like patriarchal rules about women. I did not let any man give me away at my wedding or vow to “obey” my husband. I didn’t wear a veil either. My personal choice. There are lots of Muslims in my orbit and I like them and respect their rights to their beliefs and consider many as friends.
@KITTEN
Let me tell you something.as queen rania once said “: Do not judge a woman by what’s on her head. Judge her by what’s in her head. ” .my mother wears hijab and she raised me
And my tow sisters very well
We are well educated with open minds
She’s a lawyer herself.
There’s are lots if Muslim women like her working as
Teachers /doctors/ ministers /business women .what they wear never Benn a problem to them why to you.it’s there personal choice .
@Martin: +1 Well said. I live in the Northeast U.S. and while Christmas shopping at the local mall, I went into Victoria’s Secret with my two teenaged nieces. I was surprised and pleased to see a woman employee wearing a hijab who was working as one of the sales persons. I didn’t expect that 🙂
I get that English is not your native language and I’m trying to be patient but I’d really appreciate it if you’d carefully re-read my comments.
I don’t know how or why you got the impression that I’m judging anyone for their clothing choices, particularly when I said multiple times that women should have the CHOICE to wear whatever they want.
It is mandatory for men to grow beards and cover as well. Muslims believe that the Quran is the word of God so when they cover they do it for their Lord and not men. I looked into Islam and not only are both genders instructed to cover but they’re also supposed to lower their gaze and check themselves when they have impure thoughts. Today we have men who think it’s perfectly fine to harass women on the streets. In my opinion, it would be wise to teach men not to objectify women.
@Kitten, as a muslim I just wanna clear up the verse from the specific surah you pulled up. It actually says for men of faith to lower their gaze and women to protect/cover their beauty. I wanna make it clear that it goes both ways. There’s also a very important and well known story about the prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him). He was with a man when a beautiful woman approached them. The man was in awe of the woman’s beauty and stared. The prophet(s.a.w) instructed the man to lower his gaze to make a point that the man was in the wrong and not the woman. I just wanted to clarify this. Thx!
Hate to sound like a broken record, but once again, the double standard just floors me. When a Muslim woman talks about how a woman should shroud her beauty and men should lower their gaze, everyone is all namaste and peaceful and super respectful. But when Kirk Cameron or Mama Duggar talks about how a woman should stay home with the family because it’s what God wants, it’s all, “you crazy sexist Bible-thumpers!!!!!!!!!”
Baffling. Utterly baffling. I’m not defending the Evangelical Christians because their beliefs are bonkers to me, but the glaring double standard in blog comments like these is just insane to me.
Some people are trying to turn this into a feminist and women’s rights issue. The issue here is that Selena Gomez went to a sacred place or worship and flashed her ankle in a provocative way.
Well glad Selena is showing more of her true colors.
I was tired of the wah-wah poor thing view surrounding her. She and Bieber were made for each other and she’s got more skeletons in her closet than most know.
Many others have offered their opinions on the nature of the dresscode and made many good points, I only want to add I see this as being the conflict in a primarilly Western view of the world.
Not that this is wrong or makes anyone incorrect, merely that imo it seems many are viewing the veil from a distance without a personal connection. The way I look at this also comes down to the struggle that is appearing between generations of feminists. Many older feminist don’t like and aren’t comfortable with women being sexual or exposing their skin while younger feminists (if they call themselves that) in turn feel a certain degree of hypocrisy from older feminists who want to reduce their personal feelings to all patriarchy.
There is something to be said of trying to at times eliminate the patriarchy from the discussion when viewing things. Many women make the choice to wear the veil, hajib, burka and can offer intelligent personal opinions on why they do. Yes no one can deny that men ruled the world for much of history and that almost 90% of all mores and codes can be traced back to the patriarchy, at the same time I fully believe we need to allow people to make their own choices from history rather than forever ascribe the past to them. This only binds them.
Just my 2 cents from my own perspective.
+1
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No matter what the origin of customs such as dress codes in churches and mosques and synagogues may be- over the generations people tend to attach their own different meanings to them. So you really do have to ask a variety of people actually active in the religion who follow the custom what it means to them and how they feel about it rather than putting your own spin on it based on what you’ve read about how it started. You’ll get different answers from different people, but most likely not what you expect from the historical record.
In any case- when visiting someone else’s house, follow the house rules especially about something as simple as a dress code. That’s a pretty basic gesture of respect. If it bothers you too much, just don’t go. In this case, the mosque was prepared with loaner outer clothing to accommodate visitors with different customs. So they were being quite welcoming of people who came dressed differently and were just requiring that their customs be respected inside the mosque. The kids were wrong and thoughtless and quite deliberately disrespectful and are all old enough to know better. They need to hear that and not hide behind some striking-a-blow-for-freedom nonsense. They were just being selfish.
Absolutely. It’s about being in someone else’s place of worship/remembrance and following the rules that are given to you. They’re not asked to do anything reprehensible by wearing traditional dress so logic would follow that you would want to abide by the rules of the location. And it doesn’t even all hinge on religion, either. If someone wore a t-shirt to Ground Zero saying that “Good Riddance WTC” they’d probably be on the receiving end of a lot of scornful commentary. Can they go ahead and do it anyway? Sure, of course. But are they deserving of the scorn? Definitely. Same deal here. You’re in someone else’s house. Show some respect. You’ve been given explicit guidelines on how you can properly do so. Even IF these kids were smart enough to use this moment as a vehicle to make a “statement” on an oppressive culture (and they are not), this is not the forum to make that statement. It will have the opposite of the intended effect, further entrenching the beliefs they oppose.
Not to mention, as someone else mentioned above, it could decrease the profitability of their “business” trip. These “hostesses” will not get the same take if they’re offending their clients. Haven’t they heard the phrase “the customer is always right”? 😀
Thanks all for the support- didn’t realise this would become a bigger issue! GNAT I would see your point but like others have pointed out, I’m not rejoicing or being “grateful” at being able to drink or show my legs, I was simply pointing out that it is a very normal part of my life in Abu Dhabi. I thought this link would be interesting to share:
http://www.icn.com/en/globalhighlights/2014/11/12/uae-top-country-to-respect-women/index.aspx
On a lighter note, Abu Dhabi has some of the best ladies nights I’ve ever experienced, with sever bars and clubs literally giving out free drinks to ladies on certain nights of the week- my friends and I find that we can drink for free almost every day of the week if we go to different places! I really don’t think a regressive, backward society that represses women would ever allow a tradition like this, it seems silly to point out but then again as shown in some comments, people genuinely have no idea about the UAE and how it isn’t Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan or the like.
And no, the rule isn’t just for women, men aren’t allowed to wear shorts to mosques either, and I think in this day and age she should’ve known not to deliberately flaunt her ankles in a mosque. She could’ve driven to the beach 10 mins away and stripped down to her bikini and no one would’ve cared but respect a place of worship. I don’t intend to argue with anyone, my post was intended to be informative and clear some of the very common misconceptions about the UAE in particular, not Arab countries in general.
I have been wearing the hijab since mid way through primary school, now it has become a habit and I wore it purely out of my own choice. My sister and my mother don’t wear one. Never felt the pressure to do so.
I think some fail to understand that Islam doesn’t oppress women, it’s culture that does that. That’s where the root of the problem lies and living in a Asian community you really see it firsthand. Women are gender stereotyped into roles by what is viewed as cultural norms & anyone who doesn’t adhere to it, is frowned upon & talked about. There is an unrealistic amount of pressure on females and culturally males seem to get a free pass to do as they please.
Misogyny, patriarchy, sexism and inequality are not only confined to just culture but society aswell. Sadly the lines have been blurred between religion and culture. No one knows where culture ends and religion starts.
Even living in a western country women aren’t truly free and don’t have enough equality whether it’s in the workplace, outside the workplace or their bodies. It’s ashame some people truly fail to understand why feminism is in place and choose not to educate themselves before speaking.
I think one can’t truly speak for another woman because they didn’t experience what that woman went through or saw on a day to day basis. I don’t conform to the values & ideologies that my culture promotes & I feel culture/community confines people to not know any better beyond what they are dictated by culture & rather stay safe in their box than challenge/question cultural values.
Every choice in our lives always comes back to the question what will people say?. What makes me sad is the Asian community really fails to realise that by living their lives for others it makes everyone around them miserable.
My religion doesn’t promote oppression against women, it is certain people that interpret the Quran with their own skewed definition.
Please don’t interpret this as telling any of you off. You are all intelligent women & think your all a lot of fun as I post on here from time to time. It is my general view on the topic itself.
Whether you are in a mosque, temple, gurdwara, church or synagogue you should respect them by adhering to do as they request of you which isn’t alot.
Thank you for your perspective.
Very interesting comment. I don’t know if I can quite agree that Islam does not oppress women, but I can certainly see your point about culture vs religion. I am half Greek, and they certainly do their share of oppressing women, many of whom wear headscarves. And in my travels around the world, I have seen the differences in Muslim behavior in different countries. When I was in Korea, and was guest for dinner at a wealthy Korean family’s home, I and my business associate ate at the dinner table with the men, while the women/wives who prepared the meal (it was huge, a banquet) ate standing up in the kitchen. And these people weren’t muslim…they were Christian! So yes, culture has a lot to do with it. But I still think religions could tone down the patriarchy stuff, which I believe has been created by men. Anyway, I admire you for your bravery in speaking out and living as you choose, and I thought your remarks are well written and reasonable.
I’m for Selena on this issue! Good for her!
I can wear shorts, a tank top and flip flops every day if I wanted to, but I wouldn’t ever wear those to church. A church (or mosque, temple, etc.) is a place of worship, not the mall, and a dress code that reflects a certain amount of respect and deference doesn’t seem unreasonable. If you are going to visit a place of worship, then common sense should tell you not to mock it or behave like you are at the park.
Disrespectful, attention seeking idiot!! She is an adult – she needs to bloody well act like one! If you go on vacation, you need to conduct yourself in a respectful manner, and not be a dumbass!!
This is an amazing thread! Just want to say that! And while the comments of Kitten, GNAT & Otaku and the other feminists are the ones I agree with, I really enjoyed reading the conversation as a whole and think its a good thing that women get together and discuss these issues. Have a great weekend Celebitchians!
I could be wrong but I believe Selena’s manager is Kris Jenner, if that’s the case anything is fair game to get publicity!