Yesterday, a gay, Republican-appointed California judge overturned the state’s controversial ballot initiative Prop 8, which banned gay marriages state-wide. Prop 8 passed in a state-wide vote in 2008, in a push largely funded by the Church of Latter Day Saints and out-of-state money, which is to say that gay rights and gay advocacy groups were out-gunned and weren’t as heavily organized as you’d think. When Prop 8 was passed, it became something of a cause célèbre for Hollywood types, and yesterday’s ruling has made many celebrities very happy. So what do you get when a celebrity is happy? A flurry of tweets, of course. And some formal statements, but that’s old-school:
It’s been a heavily debated topic for almost two years, but it took just a few seconds for celebrities to Tweet their cheers when Proposition 8, a ballot measure passed in November 2008 that banned same-sex marriages in California, was ruled unconstitutional Wednesday by a federal judge.
Here’s what Hollywood had to say after U.S. District Chief Judge Vaughn R. Walker in San Francisco struck down Prop 8:
• Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger: “This decision affirms the full legal protections and safeguards I believe everyone deserves.”
• Ellen DeGeneres: “Equality won!”
• Portia de Rossi: “I am ecstatic that proposition 8 has been overturned in the state of California. This is an incredibly exciting and historical day and a big step towards equal rights for all.”
• Lance Bass: “Congrats on the overturning of Prop 8!!!!”
• Pink: “It’s a good day!”
• Ricky Martin: “YEAHHHHH!!!!! PROP8UNCONSTITUTIONAL MOVING FORWARD!!!!!!!!”
• Kelly Osbourne: “so happy over the news on prop8 its about time!”
• Kim Kardashian: “Prop 8 was struck down! This news is amazing!!!! Its about time! Congrats to everyone!”
• Shanna Moakler: “Tonight we celebrate! EQUALITY and LOVE for all! This is so much bigger then [sic] marriage, it’s about wisdom, compassion and knowing we CAN be heard, action DOES make a difference!”
• Samantha Ronson: “Song Of The Day: Let’s Get Married- Jagged Edge.”
Paris Hilton: “What a huge historical day for equal rights in this country! They finally overturned Prop 8! There shouldn’t be a law on true love. :)”
Sophia Bush: “A MAJOR step forward. Everyone deserves the right to love whomever they choose. I am proud to be from Cali again!”
Rose McGowan: “Yay! No more Prop H8! I wanna be a flower girl in a wedding asap!”
Fran Drescher: “Congrats to CA for c-ing the light & rising above prejudice. u had me worried there! When Iowa is cooler than Cali, it’s time to recalibrate!”
Milla Jovovich: “Gay Marriage law overturned in CA!!! Thank god good ppl are being treated equally again! Now we need the rest of the US to follow!”
Still, not everyone cheered the decision. Some proponents of the proposition expressed their disappointment.
“Judge Walker’s ruling overturning Prop 8 is an outrageous disrespect for our Constitution and for the majority of people of the United States who believe marriage is the union of husband and wife,” conservative politician Newt Gingrich said on his Web site.
The legal fight is expected to continue with an appeal by supporters of Prop 8.
[From People]
Just on purely political note, this case is almost guaranteed to make it to the Supreme Court, at least in theory. From what I’ve seen of the Roberts court, the Chief Justice loves technicalities, and loves to throw out and hand off cases just because they don’t meet his rigorous (some would say anal retentive) standards. So while everybody is already talking about the Supreme Court case, it might not happen, just keep that in mind. But if it does happen, judicial watchers expect the court to split 4 to 4 on party lines, with Anthony Kennedy being the justice to sway either way (yes, he goes both ways on the gays). So, celebrities and gay-supporters, enjoy your celebration now, but acknowledge that there’s still more fights to come.
Amazing step in the right direction! It breaks my heart that this is still a debate in this country and people still have to fight so hard for basic rights and freedoms.
♥ I am happy. I really don’t think it will be that long before it’s okay through out our country.
Lady Gaga had some great tweets to. Anyway this is exciting. I am thrilled for all the same sex couples and gay Americans. I really think that if this makes it the government will have to do whats right and grant equal rights of marriage to all Americans regardless if your the same sex or not.
Was Arnie for or against?
Who cares what Kim Karass-ian thinks. Celebitchy is turning into Life and Style. Can we not phase her out?
Prop 8 is entirely unconstitutional and the Supreme Court needs to do the right thing. What gives any of us the right to vote on whether another human being has rights? I worry about the predicted split vote on the Supreme Court. It bugs me that the court has been so tainted. It was intended to be separate and to have allegiance to the Constitution alone. They need to remember that their purpose is to interpret and apply the Constitution, not be another mouthpiece of political parties.
How much people who supported gay marraige would support Polygamy/gay polygamy or any other type unconventional marriage next? Because you KNOW that will be next in line right?
I’m not saying this to be a smart ass, but is it not a good question to ask? Many of the same arguments that are made for gay marriage could be made about Polgamy and have been made for polgamy.
For those who go on and on about equals right do you really believe in equal rights? Or is it about the fashion of he cause?
YAY!
Don’t celebrate too soon because this is being appealed and if it goes to the Supreme Court, the law will stand. Most married people are miserable with a 50% divorce rate so I don’t get why gays want to so much.
Gays want it so much because they are human beings just like straight people and should have the same rights under the law as everyone else, meme. The fact that many marriages end in divorce really has no bearing on who has the right to get married in the first place.
@ Trouble Maker. Good point. If we are OK with gay marriage, shouldn’t we be OK with all the “unconventional” marriages? What about if i love to screw my dog, can i marry it? What about those strange religion/cult believe.
It’s like opening a pandora’s box
@meme – I hope you are joking about why gays would want the right to be legally married to the person they love. Why would they want to have the same rights/privileges under the law as any other married couple? Yeah, beats me. Ugh, what a sad response.
@TroubleMaker – aptly named. Your post reminds me of a bit from Ellen’s old standup – (paraphrase) – “This sums up the debate of those opposed to gay marriage: We can’t legalize gay marriage! If we do that, then where do we draw the line? What’s next? Next thing you know, people will be able to marry a goat!”
Just because of what precedent this may or may not set, that does not mean that gay marriage should not be legal! In and of itself, the fact that it is illegal is denying millions of Americans their basic human rights. Those rights they were supposed to have just for being American, the same rights you get to enjoy without having to fight for it. Whatever comes next would have to be dealt with at that time. It should not bear weight on the present issue.
@Toe – Just because it is a same-sex union, does not make it ‘unconventional’. It is still only two people entering into a contract together – vowing to share their lives and love until they die. What the HELL does any of that have to do with you and beastiality?!? Loving to screw your dog makes you a sick f**k. Having sex with someone you love and wanting to marry them makes you a normal human being. Your brain is working in a very strange way.
Gay couples deserve the same benefits, insurance, tax breaks, inheritance laws, and healthcare laws as heterosexual couples. We should honor the separation of Church and State, and make a law stating that religions can refuse to marry gay couples but according to federal law they are equal. As for Prop 8 I am happy but until it goes to the Supreme I am not getting too excited because this court is conservative.
@to toe and troublemaker, I don’t see whats so unconventional about marrying someone of the opposite sex. I actually don’t care if they legalize polygamy as long as the people getting hitched are aware they are marrying more than one person and no one is unaware of the other spouses. All parties would have to sign something agreeing to it. Also as long as they were of age. However interspecies relationships are unsanitary and gross.
America is Babylon.
They should definitely legalize polygamy too. That too is a matter of choice, and having sex with people you love.
@ Troublemaker
You know, for many people (including myself) the issue with polygamy has to do with women’s rights. I theory, I don’t have anything against it. People should be able to be in whatever kind of crazy relationship they want to, as long as they’re not hurting anyone. If they want to be married to 5 people at the same time, so what? If all parties fully agree on this arrangement I don’t see how it’s any of my bussiness.
HOWEVER: In practice, polygamy is most often tied in with religion, and it’s only the MEN that are allowed to have multiple wives, not the other way around. This stems from the idea that men are superior to women, and the women themselves have been so brainwashed by this hegemony that they sometimes don’t even protest it.
Same sex marriage is about the RIGHT to love whoever you choose to love! Polygamy often has NOTHING to do with love, it’s about culture and rules and female oppression.
Does this answer your question?
This is such great news, Its about time that two people that are adults can live their life together, with the same rights and freedoms as all other americans. Congratdualtions to the Gay and Lesbian community of Cali. We have the same freedom here in DC.. Lets hope all other states do the right thing, and allow adult gay people to live a their life like everyone else.
@ Trouble Maker. Good point. If we are OK with gay marriage, shouldn’t we be OK with all the “unconventional” marriages? What about if i love to screw my dog, can i marry it? What about those strange religion/cult believe.
It’s like opening a pandora’s box ===============
If you want to marry your dog, by All means, my I come to the wedding, I would tape it and everything, on days when I am feeling blue, I would have something to pop in the CD player, to laugh at and make my day.. Please stop with the apples and oranges
@ jeane, I really liked your post and ITA.
I’m not a ‘gay supporter’ I’m an equality supporter… and I liked the little I heard quoted from the decision as what he said is largely true, that supporters of Prop 8 aren’t really against gay marriage, they have a problem with gays ‘period’.
The Prop 8ers like to use “the children” a lot… they’re protecting the children. If they were really protecting the children they’d consider that surely with marriage between mum and mum or dad and dad it would further protect the children in case of a break-up as there would be legal remedies in terms of child support etc??
Only a “gay” judge would overturn this. what happened to the democratic process in this country? The vote was counted! You can all scream love this and that but same sex relationships go against nature. It will never be acceptable by the God fearing people of this country who know it is WRONG!
@Pookie
What the HELL does any of that have to do with you and beastiality?!? Loving to screw your dog makes you a sick f**k. Having sex with someone you love and wanting to marry them makes you a normal human being. Your brain is working in a very strange way.
================
And not to mention, a animal, does not have the ability to consent, two human adults have the ability to concent,
@ DJ
Good point.
I question the process in which this was overturned. It’ sets a very dangerous precedent.
@DJ – it was overturned because the way in which Prop 8 was passed was unconstitutional.
And, it doesn’t matter if someone else’s marriage is acceptable to you – you don’t have to be married to either one of them.
@ Toe:
“What about if i love to screw my dog, can i marry it? What about those strange religion/cult believe.”
Wow…gay marriage is a union between TWO. PEOPLE. Theres no bizzare, interspecies, polygamy shit going on there.
@ DJ
“same sex relationships go against nature”
Actually, homosexuality is pretty common in nature, it’s been known to occasionally happen between animals (yes, animals who live in the wild, not only those animals who have been perverted by the sinful zoo culture!).
If anything goes against nature, it would be MARRIAGE. Ever see two wild animals get married? I don’t think so. Most animals aren’t even monogamous.
The “it goes against nature” argument is completely invalid and ridiculous when you are talking about an institution created by man and held up by the law.
Let me break it down for you nice and simple. Using the “nature” argument is invalid because:
1. On the issue of marriage: Marriage has NOTHING to do with nature.
2. On the issue of homosexuality: Homosexuality DOES happen in nature, therefore it is NATURAL.
I know it’s probably useless to try and use ACTUAL LOGIC to reason with people who hide behind the bible at all times. But I’m gonna keep trying anyway 🙂
Wow, this thread degenerated quickly!
Yesterday’s ruling was a historic day and brings this country one step closer to equality for all. NOH8. My two cents.
If anything goes against nature, it would be MARRIAGE.
@ Jeane
🙂
So true.
@Jeane – Awesome post. And yes, it’s probably useless to keep trying, but I admire the fact that you did anyway. 🙂
I think the polygamy argument is the funniest considering that the church of latter day saints was the biggest supporter of prop 8. I’d also like to know how you are going to tell me that you dog is a willing participant in what you do to it. Gay couples are two willing adults making joint decisions. Your dog doesn’t want to marry or fu*k you. Polygamist are usually forcing brainwashed very young girls (children) to marry them. They don’t have any choices or regress. They are trapped. If they leave they leave their whole family including their children and most often have no education or skills to back them up and yet some still leave because of how horrible it is which is how we know this. Why do you go educate yourself a little.
@DJ…
Yes, the “people” of California voted to ban same-sex marriage…. but did you actually SEE how Prop 8 was worded on the ballot!?!? It was VERY confusing and purposely written that way. I PERSONALLY know quite a bit of people who were completely confused when it came to voting and when they voted YES on Prop 8, they thought they were voting for YES on gay marriage. Also, the vote was VERY close and there were a LOT of problems with voting poll places and inaccuracies.
ANYWAYS…. even with that being said, why should the “majority” be able to choose the rights of the minority??
This whole thing is just ridiculous.
EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL.
@jeane
“Actually, homosexuality is pretty common in nature”
I would love know an example of this “common” occurrence in nature. If it were really that common in nature then I think the endangered species list would be much longer since homosexual relationships cannot procreate.
“Let me break it down for you nice and simple:
1. Marriage has NOTHING to do with nature.”
The simple fact is I never mentioned marriage in my post because that is the end result of the problem I tried to address, but I will break it down for you. This law validates homosexuality, which is my issue that some how in our society people are trying to force the public to accept anything under the guise of political correctness. Why should I be asked to change my beliefs to validate your life style choices?
@DJ
Many people have abandoned the bible, and God’s law because it does’nt suit their lifestyle.
I just want to make a comment about the comments:
CB might feel differently, but here is my personal feeling on this somewhat charged political issue and these comments: I’m going to let everything through, and you guys can debate it amongst yourselves. Personally, I believe every American is equal, and we should all share equal rights. Everyone can defend their positions and question other people’s opinions, and as long as everyone keeps it civil and polite, you can say anything.
Good enough Kaiser. But this topic will get testy.
@ DJ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior
That took me about 5 seconds to google. I think about every animal that exists is on there.
I did’t say it was MORE common than heterosexual animal behaviour. But still, pretty common.
@everyone who says legalizing gay marriage opens up a “pandora’s box”
It can’t. It’s the LAW.
WHAT PART OF “TWO CONSENTING ADULTS” DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?!?!?!?!
Two= That’s a number. That cuts out polygamy.
Consenting= That means no dead people, no animals, and no pedophilia. Because if you’re dead or not human or a child, you can’t give consent.
Adults= Not children or animals.
There. Is that clear!??!!?!? It says NOTHING about gender.
@ DJ:
You can believe what ever you want… but EVERYONE should be considered EQUAL and have the SAME RIGHTS…. PERIOD.
No one is asking you to change your beliefs.
I loved Jeane comments. I’m not against gay marriage. If we allow 1 type, we must be able to accept all types. Thats it.
Oh and Jillian too 😛
And I am not asking you to change your beliefs to validate my lifestyle choices (I’m not gay by the way).
I am always open to hear about opinions that differ from my own. But I’d like to hear some DECENT, VALID arguments, and I have not once heard anything sane and/or logical that can make me understand why people are so against homosexuality (you are right, let’s leave the issue of marriage alone for now).
Par example, I understand why people are pro-life (while I am pro-choice). I understand their problems with eliminating new life, and though I don’t agree with them, I respect their opinion on the matter.
I just don’t understand your issues with homosexuality. Why does it bother you people so much?
@jeane:
I honestly think that most people are afraid of what is “different” and what they know nothing about.
Leviticus 20:13 – “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.” (NIV)
Romans 1:26-27 – “Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.” (NIV)
Yes, thank you Denise, but I said SANE, LOGICAL arguments, so that does not include the bible which is full of inconsistencies anyway.
Ezekiel 20:25
Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live
So, whatever.
i personally think the concept of marriage is outdated and archaic, but gay people certainly should have the same right to make that choice for themselves. why? because they are two consenting adult citizens of this country. if you don’t like it, fine…don’t go to a gay wedding. but how is that choice hurting you?
@ Denise: Please please dont bring the bible in this one. Dont use the bible on the Gays nad not on the other things.
DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.
MARK 12:18-27
If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.
PLEASE…DONT TELL ME…you are OK with THAT TOO!!
Jeane, you rock!
The bible is pretty clear on it’s stance on homosexuality, whether you choose to believe it or not.
I believe that homosexuality is unnatural.
Lest not forget that in the beginning, woman was made for man. So as the old saying goes, God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.
And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, he made into a woman, and brought her to the man.” Genesis 2:22
Therefore a man will leave his father and his mother, and will cling to his wife: and they will be one flesh.” Genesis 2:24
Troublemaker and Toe are making slipper slope arguments. they are generally fallacies that sound fantastic to their cause though they are very false.
i’m sorry, but we tried separate but equal once before and it failed miserably. how about we don’t try that again?
and for those saying it’s not worth voting if it can be overturned. it’s because the majority can’t pass something unconstitutional on the minority. otherwise women wouldn’t vote and blacks would still be slave-if we went with the majority every time.
and further more-show me a logical argument against gay marriage not steeped in religion (separation of church and state are there for a reason)and i’d love to listen.
Humans fear what they don’t know, don’t understand, or see in themselves and hate. The fear causes feelings of insecurity, pain, uncertainty and inadequacy. Because humans can’t stand to feel that way about *themselves* they naturally turn it onto another person or group. Fear, to me, is the root of all evil. Fear breeds ignorance, lack of rational judgment and the inability to empathize with your fellow man.
I honestly will never understand why someone else’s life, their marriage, what happens in their home, can cause so many people to be angry and hateful. For those who say that homosexuality/gay marriage goes against their beliefs, I say to you: hateful spiteful people who would deny another human any basic right goes against MY beliefs. Therefore, I believe you should be eliminated. Still a valid argument for imposing beliefs on someone else?
@Denise: I believe that homosexuality is unnatural.
__________________
Ok Denise, then YOU should definitely not be a homosexual. For everyone else, WHY is it YOUR concern? How is what someone else is doing damaging your life? Maybe if you loved more and hated less, you would find the common bonds that make us all human, instead of forcing differences to tear us apart.
@ Toe
Why not use the bible on this gay issue, because it shows too much truth?
I honestly did not come here to debate the bible and it’s contents. It’s not my right to judge, because no one is without sin.
Hell, if I eat bacon, I am committing a sin.
Everyone has their own beliefs on why or why not gays should be able to get married. And the biggest objection to gay marriage, is the belief in the bible and the word of God. So either way, bible was going to be brought up.
@pookie: Perfectly said, thank you!
@denise: You could have stopped with the Babylon reference — we get it, you’re against gay marriage and homosexuality in general. That’s your right, and unfortunately, so is inundating this thread with biblical references/passages. Ugh.
“How is what someone else is doing damaging your life? Maybe if you loved more and hated less, you would find the common bonds that make us all human, instead of forcing differences to tear us apart.”
@pookie: Well said.
@Denise –
“Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”.
Maybe since you’re quoting the bible you should also follow it. It’s easy for people full of hate to hide behind a book that they themselves rarely follow.
Not all believers in Christ follow this type of hatred. I believe that every one should be treated as equals, and as for the bible, remember it was written by man NOT by God himself. With that being said, it can not be fully trusted because man/woman has a varying degree of fault in what they say and do.
For all those against gay marriage, first off, get over your d**m selves. Is the homosexual lifestyle really affecting your ability to do your job, raise your family, and live your life…NO IT HAS NO BEARING ON ANYTHING YOU DO.
For the “moral majority”, your beliefs should NEVER dictate the minority.
Thank you Judge!! Finally someone with some compassion and a soul, who knows EVERYONE has the right to be happy!!
How can anyone support religions that try to prevent happiness in other people? That is proof immediately that the religion is flawed.
Denise & all bible thumpers..
You may believe that homosexuality is wrong (to say it is unnatural is just stupid, for reasons previously stated). But that is YOUR belief. NO ONE is forcing you to marry someone your own sex, or to witness a same sex marriage. You think being gay is wrong (for reasons I think are dumb and ridiculous) and that’s fine.
But then this does not even concern you! I believe in freedom, including freedom of religion, you are allowed to believe in whatever dumb things you want to believe and so are other people.
I would never impose my belief system on you. At most I will try to change your mind by debating with you, as we all have been doing here.
However, I would fiercely be AGAINST a law that would prevent you from going to your church, no matter how wrong I think you are. Why would you try to take away something that is important to someone, something that does not concern or harm you, just because YOU don’t agree with it?
And for you morons that went straight to the “can I marry my dog” stupidity,
Um NO, because the dog can’t CONSENT. And you’d better not try to sex it up either, for the same reason.
“Why not use the bible on this gay issue”
because, Denise, NOT EVERYONE IS A CHRISTIAN. not everyone subscribes to the same religion. some don’t subscribe to any religion.
“And the biggest objection to gay marriage, is the belief in the bible and the word of God. So either way, bible was going to be brought up.”
fine, bring it up, but understand this…laws of this country regarding civil rights are NOT based on the bible.
it’s not a book that everyone lives their lives by. there is a separation of church and state in this country – there will not be a state sponsored religion that everyone must abide by. you’re trying to argue RELIGIOUS ideas in the context of a civil rights issue, and that is simply bogus. are you suggesting that we make our laws according to Christianity (or any religion)? hmmm…sounds suspiciously like the Taliban…
if you want to use your personal religious beliefs as a reason why you are against gay marriage, that’s OK, but using those beliefs to argue why it should be illegal is not a legitimate argument.
EDIT: it seems to me that the arguments against gay marriage regarding “the slippery slope of marrying my dog” are the same ones people used against legalizing interracial marriage. see how ridiculous that is?
SECOND EDIT: “If you think someone else’s beliefs or marriage can invalidate your religion or marriage then that says much more about you than gay people or the state of this country.”
well said. how strong can one’s beliefs be if a little ol’ gay getting hitched can shake them?
Damn well said Jeane!
Every argument against gay marriage comes back to “I believe…”, “MY religion…”, “MY god…” What YOU personally believe should not dictate the rights and privileges of others. YOUR truth does not equal fact. If you think someone else’s beliefs or marriage can invalidate your religion or marriage then that says much more about you than gay people or the state of this country.
to the J’s that are rocking the comments: THANK YOU!
@denise, if you are going to use the bible to try and “shame” us or change our mind, keep a couple of things in mind: a) a lot of people DO NOT believe in your religion or bible and b) why quote from something so full of contradictions… for example:
1. God is satisfied with his works/Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works/Gen 6:6
2. God dwells in chosen temples/2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples/Acts 7:48
3. God dwells in light/Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness/1 Kings 8:12/Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
4. God is seen and heard/Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard/John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
5. God is tired and rests/Ex 31:17
God is never tired and never rests/Is 40:28
more: http://www.evilbible.com/Biblical%20Contradictions.htm
THEN, on top of that tiny bit of information, you have:
“Judge not, that ye be not judged” (Matthew 7:1) and “Judge not, and ye shall not be judged, condemn not and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven” (Luke 6:37).
OR how about this:
Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Even more FRAKKED up:
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT
my point is, please keep your religion out of my rights and laws and LIFE, and i will stop showing you the contradictions build into your own beliefs… thanks.
and pookie, i always love reading your comments! so insightful
thanks.
@ Nikki
Read my previous comment, about judgement.
I don’t hate gay people, never said I did. I just don’t agree with their lifestyle.
@ Jeane
Here is why I think it’s unnatural.
I see young boys now walking around in heels and makeup, and young girls with their pants hanging off their asses, looking manlier than real men. NOONE can tell me that , that is the way things were meant to be, not even you.
Right on Dingles!
Awesome stuff Odette!
I love how the bible-thumpers run away once they’ve run out of verses to spew and have to really answer the simple question: Why do you hate other people for being who they are even though it has no bearing/effect on your life? There is NO ANSWER for that because what these people have is blind hatred, not a logical reason.
jeane it is no use to argue with people who simply dont want to see your side of the argument.
yes the bible said the earth was flat.
earth was created in 7 days.
life was created by adam and eve.
the bible also told the pope to launch the crusade into the middle east to slaughter the muslims which in turn caused the muslims to fight with the catholics/cristians etc for all eternity.
so as you can see, religion is unfortunately most of the time used for evil rather than good. it is spun by the church to whatever propaganda suits them.
does it matter that millions are dying of aids in africa because the church wont allow the use of condoms? they prefer to see millions wiped off the face of this planet because they wont practise “abstenance” WOW some logical there, talk about compassion.
i could go on and on, but will it make one ounce of difference to ignorant people? NOPE
if people chose to believe in that stuff, its their choice and no matter what you say them, it is not going to change.
and do i really care whether there is a hell or heaven or whatever crap the church came up with? NOPE!
Denise, I believe your god would want you to try to learn tolerance. And none of those boys and girls you mentioned actually care how you feel about them, so you’re probably just exhausting yourself for absolutely nothing. I feel sorry for you. Why can’t you just wish for happiness and peace for everyone?
@ CB
I don’t need your pity. I pity all the little girls and boys who suddenly think it’s trendy to be gay. Those who probably have’nt even experienced straight sex yet. I pity the state of our society and the pressures these young kids are facing.
Hell yea, I wish for peace, starting with the Middle East. But let’s be real, it’s never going to happen. Not in this lifetime.
“I pity all the little girls and boys who suddenly think it’s trendy to be gay.”
all what little boys and girls? please elaborate on this.
“Those who probably have’nt even experienced straight sex yet.”
um…maybe they haven’t because they DON’T WANT TO…because THEY’RE GAY?
“I pity the state of our society and the pressures these young kids are facing.”
yeah, all those poor kids facing the pressure to “act gay” because it’s trendy. *EYE ROLL* I think it’s evident that teens would be more likely to feel pressure at school because they ARE gay and have to hide it rather than because they’re feeling pressure to “try” being gay. because it’s so trendy and all…yeah, it’s so trendy to fear for your safety because of who you love.
“NOONE can tell me that , that is the way things were meant to be, not even you. ”
and who, exactly, decides what is “meant to be”?
Sheesh @Denise
Yeah it’d be nice if those RELIGIOUS wars would end.
@Denise: Here is why I think it’s unnatural. I see young boys now walking around in heels and makeup, and young girls with their pants hanging off their asses, looking manlier than real men. NOONE can tell me that , that is the way things were meant to be, not even you.
For the life of me, I will NEVER understand the notion of “this is not how it was meant to be”. In pretty much any context. Ok, first, how do you determine what something should or should not be? And, who is deemed qualified to make that determination? And if there are millions of people experimenting with fashion, identity, beliefs, etc, then how is that NOT the norm? How can MILLIONS of people be wrong? The only constant in this world is that nothing is constant. Again, I go back to fear – when things change or bump people out of their comfort zones, it scares the hell out of them. Well, I hate to break it to you babycakes, the world is an ever-changing, ever-evolving living thing, and you either run with the train or get your ass mowed down on the tracks.
And again, I ask this question, how does it matter in any way in your life how other people dress? So now if someone does not fit in with your idea of traditional feminine/masculine roles, they are foresaken and unnatural???
@Denise: Hell yea, I wish for peace, starting with the Middle East. But let’s be real, it’s never going to happen. Not in this lifetime.
Well, this time, I agree with you. I too find it sad world peace will never be realized in my lifetime. And saddest of all, it’s because of people like you who have no tolerance, empathy or love for anyone who falls outside of your very tiny picture of who is right/worthy. How you can spew hatred, and then speak of peace…sigh…I think my head is going to explode from all of this hypocrisy and twisted, ass backwards logic.
Denise
Okay, you said that statement about “judgment”, do you not proofread or re-read your posts? Your basis for being against equal rights for homosexuals is by quoting the bible. Right then and there you have just made a judgment of another person. Seriously, what is so wrong with granting them the same rights as a heterosexual couple. NOTHING, that’s what wrong. Prop H8 was funded by people who used the bible as a basis for being against gay marriage, it’s the same argument that people like you use to justify your “side”. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but don’t force your beliefs onto others. The judge did what was constitutionally right. Enough said!
@ Praise St Angie
R U Serious? So u think it’s perfectly normal that young boys are walking around emulating women, and vice a versa? Do u believe a woman is a man, simply because she chooses to dress as one ? Do u think the pregnant “man” is normal? Too much tolerance leads to all sorts of immoral behavior.
Geez, I know I’m sounding like a crazed religious lunatic, to u guys, but damn I thought some things were obvious.
@ Nikki
I am not trying to change your beliefs, so don’t try to change mine. Everyone will not always agree.
@xxodettexx – thanks! Great post too! I denounced Catholicism when I was 10 – pretty much for the reasons you pointed out. The painful hypocrisy/contradictions were too much for even my young self to bear. I subscribe more to the church of George Carlin – it’s better to have a great idea than a belief. You can always change an idea, but people will kill for a belief.
@ Pookie
U know why it matters to me?
Because I am a parent raising children in these times. Do you know that is the toughest job in the world? I have neices, nephews, being raised in these times. Things are just out of control and peer pressure is a bitch.
@Denise: Geez, I know I’m sounding like a crazed religious lunatic.
Right again! Hey, that’s two in a row!
Sorry, I couldn’t refrain from the sarcasm on that. Honestly, if you believe that people are horrible and immoral and will burn in hell for wearing clothes you don’t deem appropriate for their gender – fine, have at it. Hate all day and night and then wake up in the morning and have a big bowlful of Hate with your coffee!
*BUT* if you are trying to say that the people you hate should not be ALLOWED to do as they choose with their own bodies, lives, marriage, etc., then I have a huge issue with that. If I’ve misunderstood your meaning, I apologize.
I am a parent as well – and I have no fear of him either being gay, having gay friends, being a Broadway dancer, smokin a jay in the basement when he thinks I don’t know, etc. My biggest fear for him is dealing with people like you. My biggest fear is that he will think it’s ok to be bigoted, hateful, ashamed, fearful, angry, cruel, nasty, intolerant and ugly – because I’ll tell you what, I see a hell of a lot more of THAT behavior than I do gay guys riding down my block in a thong on a unicycle blowing their dog!!!!!!!!!!
“So u think it’s perfectly normal that young boys are walking around emulating women, and vice a versa?” (not addressing that the definition of “normal” is not concrete, I’ll say…)
…yes…because everyone is allowed to experiment with what is right for them. who are you to say it’s not normal? because your RELIGION says so? again, YOUR religious rules/morals do NOT apply to everyone. so, what’s normal to others may not be normal to you.
“Do u believe a woman is a man, simply because she chooses to dress as one ?” um…no, that’s a woman who is dressed as a man because, for whatever reason, she is more comfortable in men’s clothing. WTF kind of unrelated question is THAT?…talk about a straw man…
“Do u think the pregnant “man” is normal?” again, denise, “normal” is a relative term. what’s “normal” to you isn’t “normal” to everyone. I don’t think it’s “normal” (for me) to eat dog…but people in other societies do it. It’s “normal” for me to eat a cheeseburger, but not so for people who consider cows to be sacred.
and the behavior you refer to as “immoral” isn’t immoral to everyone. it’s immoral to YOU. and no one is asking you to enter into a gay marriage.
@denise re. ‘I see young boys now walking around in heels and makeup, and young girls with their pants hanging off their asses, looking manlier than real men. NOONE can tell me that , that is the way things were meant to be, not even you.’
It is society that dictates how we view what females/males should look like. It is society that says females she wear makeup, heals, skirts and men shouldn’t. It is a product of the time and society in which we live that we have opinions on how the different genders should dress (for example the Victorians believed that boys should wear pink and girls blue). It isn’t about nature at all it’s about society. Therefore how is the way people look a valid arguement that homosexuality is wrong.
Awesome stuff, Pookie and St. Angie!
The majority vote should never be used against a minority. It is paramount to saying ther brunettes could put a motion on the ballot to declare blondes second class citizens. This is not about gay, it’s about equal protection under the law. This is what the court is for. During the civil rights movement there was not a lot of support for those iniatives and “activist’ judges made those hard decisions and guess what, they were the right thing to do.
@ Pookie
Well than good for you.
I don’t feel the need to bash your character as you do mine. I thought you were better than that, guess not.
I’ll agree with you on one thing
Belief in the bible does make you somewhat intolerant.
But you are also being hateful, ugly and intolerant towards me,hypocrisy is’nt it?
there is a reason for the separation of church and state. There is no point in arguing whether or not you think homosexuality is right or wrong. It is what it is. There are people all over this country living their lives as gay americans, they deserve equal protection under the law. As for quoting the bible yup christianity is against gay marraige but not everyone believes in that religion and the bigotry in certain Bible verses is part of the reason.
I rarely comment, but am so overcome with happiness about this ruling that I want to add my two cents.
Regardless of the bible, our nation was founded on the belief of equality for all. We had to fight for women and minorities to be included, and this argument makes me feel like we’re back in 1950’s era segregation. It’s ridiculous to think that gays shouldn’t be treated equally.
@denise: You may not have been bashing my character, but you were certainly having a free-for-all bashing people you feel don’t fit into your idea of ‘normal’. So please, stop throwing hypocrisy in my face. You are admittedly intolerant, you admittedly hate/dislike people only because they don’t do what you want them to do – that, to me, is ugly and hateful and intolerant. I am just putting up the mirror, I am sorry you don’t like what you see.
This isnt about gay marriage being legal or not its about a law voted into effect by majority vote – in other words Democracy. When 1 person can overturn a law voted into effect by the majority America is no longer a Dmeocracy but a dictatorship.
There are laws i dont agree with but in a fair Democracy the majority vote stands period.
all I know is I feel sorry for your kids, Denise, as you teach them hate and intolerance about lifestyle choices of others that have nothing to do with you. why dont you take it from Gandhi instead of bitching about how peace will never come in your lifetime: become the change you seek.
stop preaching hate and intolerance and make sure your kids grow up into peaceful people who dont hate on others because of difference and religious views. thats what you should be worried about as a mother.
Hey everyone! Let’s take a good look at Canada, South Africa, Mexico City, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, Netherlands, Sweden and Argentina. In all of these countries, and Mexico City, gay marriage is legal. None of these places have experienced wars breaking out due to this issue. “God” has not come down from the heavens and unleashed his wrath. They have NOT legalized polygamy and bestiality because they legalized gay marriage, and they have no intentions of doing so. If anything, these countries have gone on living life as if nothing has changed.
I don’t see why in America, the land of the FREE, we are denying gays the RIGHT to marry. Who cares what the bible says? The bible does not decide our civil liberties and rights. There is a SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE! I don’t know why that is so hard to understand. That is literally stated in the constitution. If we followed everything that was said in the bible, then life in America would be much different. It’s funny how some religious people like to pick and choose the parts of the bible they follow, only choosing what is beneficial to them.
@ Bros
Don’t feel sorry for my kids.They are truly loved and cherished. Feel sorry for the children who don’t have that.
Im not bothered by gay marriage I could care less if legal or not BUT I am bothered, that in a so called Democracy, a vote by the people was overturned by 1 person! This is a dictaorship not a Democracy! This is very scary for future of Americas Democracy.
I dont think any law voted by majority of people (whether i agree with it or not) should be allowed to be overturned by anyone including the Supreme Court because this is not what Democracy is.
Good lord, denise, how many times do people have to explain it to you?
Yes, we may be intolerant of your beliefs because we think they are bogus. But none of us are trying to pass a law that makes it ILLEGAL for you to have these ideas. I believe you are entitled to your opinion. Freedom of speech for all!
YOU are trying to force your beliefs on other people by supporting laws about what they can or cannot do.
Like I said before, if someone would try to take away your right to go to church, I would SO be on your side! No matter how stupid and wrong I think your ideas are, it is your basic right as a human being.
Live and let live, that’s all we want!
With the divorce rate as it is, I have a hard time understanding why anyone would want to get married. The only ones who suffer are the kids involved in divorce, which is sad. I don’t have issues with gay marriage, only divorce of any marriage.
Did Kim K pass this through?
I am outnumbered on this topic.
@ Pookie
I happen to love what I see in the mirror.
Now I must get back to work before I end up without a job.
@bros: beautifully stated!!
@denise: are you saying that children are only ‘becoming’ gay because they weren’t loved enough??
@Kim – The law was overturned because it was found to be unconstitutional. And our Supreme Court judges are there to protect the constitution. We have a great system in this Democracy of ours – checks and balances. It was a system put in place to make it possible for bulls**t ‘laws’ pushed by a CHURCH and backed by tons of money, could be reversed when it is found to be outside the parameters of our constitutional law.
I feel sorry for any kids who get a steady diet of hate and intolerance wrapped up in the blanket of ‘love’ and ‘righteousness’ and narrowly defined ‘morality.’ then they grow up to be intolerant close minded people, just like you, making the world more war-prone, bellicose, and judgemental. so I dont doubt that you love and cherish your kids. I just think hypocritical religious BS churns out more of the same. what would you do if one of your kids turns out to be gay? would you disown them? hope they never came out of the closet and had a bunch of psychiatric problems as a result? or would you hope they could come to their mother as the center of unconditional love and tolerance and tell you?
are you saying that children are only ‘becoming’ gay because they weren’t loved enough??
@ Pookie
Don’t put words in my mouth. Of course that’ is not what I meant. Grow up.
Jeane, it’s like banging our heads against the wall! There are some people out there who really have NO IDEA WHY they feel the way they do. They have all these feelings, emotions, needs, etc., that have nowhere to go and they have no ability to logically process any of it. So when someone is screaming “I’m MAD!!” and you ask “Ok, why are you mad?”, they look at you, stomp their feet and scream “I’m JUST MAD OK????”. Picture a two-year old with a tantrum and that’s pretty much what I see when talking to people like Denise. So busy focused on everything that really does not matter to them, unable to just take care of their own lives, families, hearts – I would much rather focus on what would make my child flourish, than what could make him flounder. But I don’t think most people live that way, and that’s why it’s so stinkin f’d up.
@bros unfortunately I think the stats on gay teens committing suicide is high 🙁 if only more kids felt able to talk to a relative or friend and know they are OK and loved regardless of sexuality.
@Denise – I was asking an honest question, because I really had no idea where you were going with that comment. Which is why I asked rather than assume and give an unwarranted response.
@bros: I feel sorry for any kids who get a steady diet of hate and intolerance wrapped up in the blanket of ‘love’ and ‘righteousness’ and narrowly defined ‘morality.’ then they grow up to be intolerant close minded people, just like you, making the world more war-prone, bellicose, and judgemental.
________
It’s like you read my mind. Wonderfully stated.
Suck it Prop-h8ers!!!!!
(DONT CARE ABOUT GS KAR-ASS-IAN, JUST HAPPY FOR JUSTICE!)
@denise What the Bible teaches in invalid in this debate b/c we have separation of Church and State.
I am pretty conservative on most things but I have never understood why same sex marriage is such a debate. I also can’t understand how the government gets away with restricting marriage. Separation of Church and State means a Biblical argument can’t be brought into the discussion.
No one is saying priests or pastors have to perform same sex marriages. Priests often won’t marry a Catholic and non-Catholic. Some Rabbis won’t perform a wedding unless bride and groom are both Jewish.
I don’t see how the government can stop 2 men or 2 women from getting a marriage license.
“With the divorce rate as it is, I have a hard time understanding why anyone would want to get married. The only ones who suffer are the kids involved in divorce, which is sad. I don’t have issues with gay marriage, only divorce of any marriage.”
And because of that, no one should get to give it a try? Also, around here people are capable of having kids even if they aren’t married*, so that’s not a particularly compelling argument against divorce.
ETA: I’m not sure if you were arguing against it, just felt like I should address the point. Sorry if I was mistaken.
* Actually, seems to be a common trait among humans everywhere. 🙂
@ The Biblically inclined:
According to the Bible, marrying your half siblings is OK, because of:
Genesis 20:12
And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.
As is polygamy – or, more precisely polygyny:
Genesis 32:22
And he rose up that night, and took his two wives, and his two womenservants, and his eleven sons, and passed over the ford Jabbok.
This may have already been said, I’m not reading all the posts…To me, it boils down to this: Are gay people paying taxes? Sure they are…So why should they be treated any differently? It is not our place to judge who someone loves and wants to spend their life with. I have gay and lesbian friends, and I can honestly say they are some of the nicest, most genuine people I know. The people who are so obviously predjudiced against gay people are missing out on having the PRIVILEDGE of having these wonderful people in their lives….
Homosexuality is a sin. point blank.
@Kim, the law was discriminatory. Therefore it was bogus and has to be overturned.
You can’t just allow discriminatory laws because lots of people are nasty pieces of crap who like them. Equality should sort of go hand in hand with democracy, wouldn’t you say? Like when you as a woman were finally allowed to vote?
“What about if i love to screw my dog, can i marry it? What about those strange religion/cult believe.”
wow, would you have said that about interracial marriages??? because there were times and places where interracial marriages were against the law, too.
polygamy is an interesting argument. and i don’t have any issues with it whatsoever as long as it involves consenting adults (a thirteen year old child-bride is definitely not in that category). there are policy issues with polygamy, such as healthcare benefits, survivor benefits, etc., that would obviously be more tricky with several spouses than with one but nothing that couldn’t be worked out somehow.
with bestiality/zoophilia, it is almost impossible to say that an animal ‘consents’ to it and it is likely frightening and/or painful and/or just annoying to a lot of animals. however, surprisingly it is legal in a lot of countries (Belgium, Mexico, Switzerland, Cambodia, Germany, Denmark, Finland, Germany).
@ MeiMei I was NOT arguing against it, everyone has the right to get married. I don’t see the point of MARRIAGE, thanks.
Don’t stir up sh*t where there is none.
@Sarai – It may be a sin to you, but that has nothing to do with the law. Legally, there is no true ground to stand on to oppose gay marriage. Moral arguments and God are irrelevant due to the separation of church and state. As many other posters have already said.
Sarai, it’s only a “sin” if you are deluded by a nasty, hate-mongering “religion”/fantasy novel.
@jeane
OK you I have been watching and trying to figure out how to make a point without being argumentative.
the reason the bible is always at the core of this argument is because marriage is a biblical ideology and if you used a non religious term such as civil union, then people will have less of a problem. You are trying to change the definition of marriage, which is based in religion, and therefore people are going to stand against it.
As far as “haters” and people thinking that because of my beliefs that I judge or dislike anyone who is for this, it is not true. I will treat all people with respect and dignity, but I will still stand for what I believe in.
@denise
At least you get it
Some also say that sodomy is a sin, which via certain definitions includes oral sex, I disagree… I think it is the worlds best way to start your day. Point blank.
In my personal opinion I am thrilled that prop 8 was overturned. If the people entering into a marriage are honest, respectful and equal they are on the right track it shouldn’t matter if they are gay or not gay.
@DJ: The reason the bible is always at the core of this argument is because marriage is a biblical ideology and if you used a non religious term such as civil union, then people will have less of a problem. You are trying to change the definition of marriage, which is based in religion, and therefore people are going to stand against it.
I have to disagree, people are going to be against this and have a problem with it even if you called it “cheeseburger”. Marriage, by legal definition, is a contract entered into between two consensual adults. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the biblical connotations religious folk see in it. And semantics aside, it is still a LEGAL issue, that has nothing to do with moral differences we have as citizens. Legally, there is no reason to not permit two consenting adults to be married/unionized/wed…whatever. This is about equal rights for all citizens regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation.
And you should stand for what you believe in, just so long as your beliefs do not take away from the rights of another person. Apply what you believe to your life, and the lives of your family, but beyond those walls, your opinions should not limit what another human being has the right to do. What if the majority deemed religion to be illegal, passed a law that you could no longer practice your religion? Would you feel that was fair? That someone else not liking what you do have a direct impact on your right as a free citizen?
Um, wow. Some of you are whack! @ Pookie and Bros, just because Denise doesn’t agree with you doesn’t mean her children are taught to hate anyone. My best friend in the world is a Bible Thumping Baptist and is against gay marriage but certainly doesn’t teach her children hate, she just leaves that topic alone. Now on to my real point.
I used to be against gay marriage, as was my husband, but then after some research and some lovely comments on a post here at Celebitchy, much like this one, about a year or more ago.
I am a devout Catholic, and I have been told in the past that Religion is not a buffet where you take what you like and leave what you don’t, but I can’t agree with inequality for an entire group of people. Homosexuality is prevalent in nature. Marriage is not found in nature very true. My opinion is that divorce threatens my marriage much more than two men or two women that consent to marry each other. Also Jesus states very clearly that divorce is against God’s will, much more than he talks about THOSE DAMN GAYS! I am against Divorce but for damn sure don’t want the government of all things, deciding for me what I can or cannot do. Just like I am against abortion, but also don’t want that policed by our government. As for my religious beliefs, I answer to God at the end of my life for my actions. I treat people with dignity and respect and wish the same for myself. If someone is gay and God doesn’t like that (which isn’t what I think) then they will answer to God for that at their meeting. My two cents.
I’m pretty sure marriage goes beyond the bible. Lots of religions have marriages, not just those that read the bible. That said, it is a hot button because it’s a religious ceremony in the minds of most despite the fact that until only recently it was a legal contract about property and lineage more than love. There’s nothing religious about that. lol
Seriously though, if we are going to ban gay marriage because it is between one man and one woman, we better ban divorce too.
So hooray that it was overturned.
Damn well said Pookie.
You religious people are NOT MORE IMPORTANT than anyone else. Therefore you can’t dictate what the rest of us get. Live your own lives and mind your own business. Busy yourselves with getting into your heaven, because you probably won’t, based on the way you treat people.
@pookie
if it is simply a contractual agreement and semantics do not matter then why not call it a civil union and grant all of the legal rights of marriage, that way you get all the rights you want and us “religious folk” can keep marriage sacred in our beliefs. Why is that such an issue? As long as you have the same rights it makes no difference.
“Don’t stir up sh*t where there is none.”
I actually added something right after I posted the comment:
“ETA: I’m not sure if you were arguing against it, just felt like I should address the point. Sorry if I was mistaken.”
It’s not always to tell what other people mean, especially online.
@ nnire
“with bestiality/zoophilia, it is almost impossible to say that an animal ‘consents’ to it and it is likely frightening and/or painful and/or just annoying to a lot of animals. however, surprisingly it is legal in a lot of countries (Belgium, Mexico, Switzerland, Cambodia, Germany, Denmark, Finland, Germany).”
I have no idea what’s going on in other countries, but in Finland it is animal abuse, which is illegal. The term is not mentioned, as far as I know, but the act is is not legal. Just like circumcision is not mentioned as being illegal, but if done by someone other than a doctor, it can be prosecuted as child abuse (successfully, even).
DJ: The reason why people are arguing that the Bible cannot be used in this argument is because in the United States marriage is not a religious institution. If it were, you’d have to profess allegiance to some kind of religion in order to be legally wed in this country, which is untrue. People can be married by a county clerk, a ship captain, and any number of other people who are not part of any kind of religious institution.
DJ marriage is not a biblical institution. marriage is a social function found all over the world and the ceremonial aspects of it often concern religion. marriage exists in societies that are Hindu, Muslim, Taoist, etc. Marriage isnt confined to the christian (thus biblical) faith.
so there is no religious argument to be found about the semantics of marriage, civil unions, etc. the law has nothing to say about what the churches decide to do with the ceremonial power they have to officiate or not officiate a ceremony, however marriage is a legal definition, codified and protected by the STATE, and therefore is a matter of law and equal protection under it.
I guess we all have opinions, but as long as no one is being hurt who are we to say how another person conducts their private lives. If ‘marriage’ in some peoples minds is only valid if sanctioned by the church, then it would follow that if a member of the clergy marries a gay couple they would be married? Also following that logic, if a couple is ‘married’ by a Justice of the Peace is that not a valid marriage as it isn’t technically a holy union?
As for changing the term ‘marriage’ to ‘civil union’ that is an interesting idea, but it would be horribly costly, think of the money that would have to be spent to change all legal documents, local, state, federal, etc. to include ‘civil union’… it would be a logistical nightmare and would cost the taxpayers tens of millions that would be better spent on actual issues like health care, road repair, and security.
1) No, the United States of America is not a Democracy, it is a REPUBLIC. If we truly lived in a Democracy, we would not have elected representatives.
2) For anyone griping about being “forced to accept” a certain lifestyle, get over it! Not about you and what you like or consider “normal”. I’m sure plenty of people don’t like interracial or interfaith couples. Personally, I don’t like lecherous old men marrying young, plastic whores. Do they have to care about what I like, or what makes me comfortable? No, other people’s relationships are none of my business. If you want to be filled with hate and intolerance fine by me, but don’t think you have the right to legislate it. Same-sex marriage isn’t going to turn anyone gay. It may, however, teach your gay son or daughter that they are a normal, healthy, worthy human being — unless you have filled them with enough shame and self-loathing to last a lifetime.
@Denise: “Why not use the bible on this gay issue, because it shows too much truth?”
This is, hands down, the funniest thing I have read all year. That someone could be this delusional…haha, oh wow.
wow. Homophobic people freak me out. Don’t worry, no ones going to force you to marry someone of the same sex so why do you even care?
@bros
It was historically a religious institution. you just agreed.
” marriage exists in societies that are Hindu, Muslim, Taoist, etc. Marriage isnt confined to the christian (thus biblical) faith. ”
but marriage has been, until our social decline, defined by a man and a woman. I think the whole “tolerance” thing is out of hand and people are not looking at the bigger picture of our existence and the slippery slopes that are being navigated. And since the only people who have to be tolerant are those that believe in God, all of you seem to be lacking it.
@DJ: “why not call it a civil union and grant all of the legal rights of marriage, that way you get all the rights you want and us “religious folk” can keep marriage sacred in our beliefs.”
Civil unions do not currently afford the same legal protections/rights that a marriage does. They are also not available in all states.
And again, they point of this is allowing EVERY citizen in this country to enjoy the SAME freedoms as anyone else.
And you still haven’t answered my question on how you would feel if someone told you it was illegal to pray to your god and practice your chosen religion.
@TaylorB
How much do you think it has cost already? It would not be that bad, because very few states will pass it anyway
@pookie, CB Rawks, nnire, jeane, TaylorB and many others… a-frakking-men! so far the few arguments “against” gay marriage that i have heard have to do with PERSONAL and/or RELIGIOUS beliefs… wait, there is that word again, BELIEFS…
This Country [sorry ms palin and friends!] was not based as a christian nation…
George Washington (commander in chief of the American forces in the American Revolution, chairman of the convention that wrote the United States Constitution, and first president): “Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.” – letter to Edward Newenham, 1792
John Adams (the second President of the United States) signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states: “The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”
Thomas Jefferson (the third President of the United States) Jefferson’s interpretation of the first amendment in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association (January 1, 1802):
“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.”
Jefferson’s “The Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom”: “Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, more than on our opinions in physics and geometry….The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”
James Madison (the fourth President of the United States): “Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
Simply put, this country was premised as a country with freedom for all, with the promise of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness… THANKFULLY
DJ: Marriage can be religious, yes. Obviously.
But point bros was trying to make, that you are avoiding, is that in the United States marriage is not exclusively a Biblical institution. It just isn’t. Period. If it were, than non-Christians wouldn’t be legally married in this country. Do you deny that to be the truth?
@Mikeyangel: I think you had a great post. You feel differently than most of the people posting, but have clearly stated that everyone is entitled to live their own life. Which is all anyone here is asking for! 🙂
The reason Denise took so much heat is because she was clear on her belief that what she feels is moral or acceptable should be law. She all but said that ‘the gays’ are ruining the morality of our children. That she is afraid of kids not having ‘straight sex’. I mean, her stuff was pretty out there. And THAT type of ignorance and blind faith *is* damaging. I do worry that her kids would learn from that example. That she feels it’s ok to bash or hate people that she doesn’t care for. Or think it’s ok to deprive another human being of their rights because she isn’t ok with it.
DJ wrote: “…but marriage has been, until our social decline, defined by a man and a woman.”
Actually, marriage was originally a union between families, hence the dowry etc, and they were usually arranged to benefit the families with money, property or land not the ‘love’ between a man and a woman. It was a financial union, still is many places.
You are a romantic, that is sweet. But originally marriage was basically ‘merger’, it is modern society that has changed the meaning, not the other way around.
Kaiser I really wish you had posted a pic of someone besides Kim Kardashian on this thread especially since you ended up writing something else about her today ( I know that you probably had no idea that you would end up doing that) she is just THE worst.
What I personally cannot understand is why marriage, a religious construct, is even mandated by the state? I’ve been saying for years that marriages should be church only, and the state/federal government should only recognize civil unions between two consenting adults.
The people that are generally against gay marriage are really just having a knee-jerk reaction to the idea that anyone that loves or lives differently than they themselves do should have any rights.
There are some excellent points being made here, and I know what I believe- all humans are equal. Even the ones I disagree with.
DJ,
I can not say with any authority how much Prop 8 has cost the state, however I would suspect that re-wording all documents to change the term marriage to civil union (which would have to apply to anyone not married by clergy), at the local, state and federal level would cost a fortune. Think of it, car loan applications, DMV, health insurance, job applications, etc, etc. the list would be never ending and certainly more expensive than this Prop 8 suit…. I suppose they could raise taxes to offset the cost, but somehow I doubt that would go over well in CA at this point.
DJ, stop being a fool. no, marriage isnt exclusively a religious institution. I didnt just agree. read it again. It happens in religious societies (hence, my examples of some) and in non-religious societies. It is a social function of culture. NOT exclusively religious. and not historically biblical. (maybe you got confused and conflated biblical with religion, when biblical refers to a subset of ONE religion).Again, you are confusing the ceremonial with the legal.
@pookie
Thank you. I read most or all of what Denise wrote and though I believe her thinking is closed minded and narrow, and her one comment about the girls wearing baggy clothes and boys in heels was a bit outlandish (esp. to claim it is because of the gays and has nothing to do with anything else like say rappers or MTV), I don’t think she is a bad person or a bad mom to have certain beliefs and stick to them. That is exactly how my best friend is, and she is a great mom who is raising two kids that are very loved and well taken care of. My best friends kids, along with Denise’s probably, will have a huge shock when they go into the real world. All I can hope for Denise’s kids is that they get the greater message of Christianity which is love and respect for mankind, and that it will triumph over their taught beliefs against homosexuality. To clarify even if Denise teaches them that marriage is between a man and a woman, and say that changes (and I hope it does) and her kids eventually meet Mr and Mr Smith, I hope their love for their fellow man will outweigh their disgust at said Mr and Mr Smith because of what Denise taught them 🙂 Get me? Sorry I hope I wasn’t confusing.
Also, to clarify, please don’t think that I am against Gay Marriage, I am not, it was just a windy road for me to get to my current opinion. I had to really think about things. In the end, I have a gay cousin who I truly love and want the best for. I in no way think his homosexuality could “turn my kids gay” or that his happiness could affect my own happiness within my marriage and this in turn also helped me get to the place I am. My husband feels the same way. I think if every homophobe knew a gay person, or knew that someone they loved was indeed gay, there would be a lot more tolerance.
Tara: Because marriage ISN’T a religious construct. People get married who aren’t religious. Marriages used to be (and still are in some places) about the gaining of land, property or the joining of two important families.
Just tuned in to support the LGBT community in saying, “Eat it, Prop 8!”
I live an hour away from one of the most bigoted cities in North America. Can’t wait to see their collective heads explode.
Im not bothered by gay marriage I could care less if legal or not BUT I am bothered, that in a so called Democracy, a vote by the people was overturned by 1 person! This is a dictaorship not a Democracy! This is very scary for future of Americas Democracy.
I dont think any law voted by majority of people (whether i agree with it or not) should be allowed to be overturned by anyone including the Supreme Court because this is not what Democracy is.
——————————
Well, I don’t think any citizen has the right to cast a vote to deny rights to other citizens. That is horrific and completely unconstitutional. What scares me for America is that this was ever allowed on any ballot. Noone has the right to decide if another person has equal rights and religion doesn’t belong in the legislative process in any form. This issue has no place on a ballot!
Yay! All people having equal rights under the constitution is great!
But that last picture creeps me out. Eww.
@ denise: if you are such a holier than thou christian why exactly are you on a celebrity gossip board? and if you have sinned (as you freely admit) than why cast stones at others? go thump your bible elsewhere, hypocrite.
`Unless everyone in this country has a right to get married, we don`t believe in marriage.`
You`ve got something to believe in now, sincere glamourous celebrity fornicators. Now, the task of fucking for America is finished and the wage is paid.
Put your name on the paper. DO IT!
And bring me an `I Just Got Back From California And All I Got Was This Lousy Civil Liberty` T-shirt.
Tick-Tock, Hollywood–and bring me smoked salmon.
Unless they were being disingenuous. Well, I`ve never heard this `disingenuous` word before, so it must be made up. Screwing for America, I like it.
“I think if every homophobe knew a gay person, or knew that someone they loved was indeed gay, there would be a lot more tolerance. ”
@mmcknigh: I really do believe this as well.
Jo mama,
I must confess I am a bit confused by your post, could you please elaborate?
EVERYONE has the right to be miserable.
Thanks to the posters who realize that just because I have my beliefs, does not mean my children are being taught hate. I have never hated anyone in my life. Because I don’t agree with certain lifestyles does’nt mean I hate them and wish them ill. That’s not me.
Some people are more accepting than others, and it’s those that are so accepting that I believe are the most critical, esp. to those who oppose what they believe.
I never personally criticized one of these posters for their overwhelming support of the gay community. But when others are not as supportive, they get all types of insults hurdled at them.
It’s ridiculous and childish behavior from adults.
@ Original kate
Why can’t I enjoy a blog site, and still be a bible believer? What does one have to do with the other? Is there some unwritten law that says only non believers get to enjoy the internet?
@ Gatsby
Delusional I am not, I am very much aware. We are two very different people, just leave it at that.
“It’s ridiculous and childish behavior from adults.”
@ denise: no, what’s ridiculous and childish is hiding behind a bible when it is convenient, rather than making logical arguments against gay marriage. aside from the bible, what arguments have you actually made? if you don’t like gay people or don’t support their rights as human beings, then that is your option, but please don’t shove your half-witted “christian” beliefs down our throats in an attempt to justify your prejudices.
and i stand by my last post that you are a hypocrite. maybe when you are standing before god and he asks why you, as an imperfect being, were so intolerant of others you will have something meaningful to say. your posts here have show nothing but ignorance and vitriol.
one last thing: people who love one another and want to make a lifetime commitment to share their lives as spouses are doing you no harm. if you believe it is sinful then let god deal with it – he certainly doesn’t need help from you. worry about your own backyard.
You collegiate liberals, you faux intelligentsia, you petit fasciste have no idea what hatred is. You think people that disagree with you out of a desire to share the good news hate you? There are people in this world that believe their ticket to paradise is the scalp of an infidel. There are people in this world that believe the gardens of utopia must be watered with the blood of the bourgeoise. There are people in this world that would see the moral foundation stones of their own nation dynamited so that they might be free to replace the rock of ages with the shifting sands of chaos and atavism. That is hatred. A concerned mother standing her ground while you hurl filth and invective and degrade her intelligence and question her character is hatred? People of Earth, that is love.
@ Trouble Maker
This movement was funded by the Mormon church, who believes in polygamy anyways, and thumbs their nose at the law on a daily basis. They practice polygamy and rape minors all the time.
This case will hold in the Supreme Court.
This is a clear violation of church and state. It’s passing a law based on the word of the bible and also allowing government to dictate who able to receive what religious service. Marriage is preformed by a priest joining two people under the eyes of God.
Not allowing people to be joined in a civil union (the state admittance of marriage) and thereby legally combine their assets and securities is also a failure of constitutional law. Imagine not being recognized as a citizen because you are black, and therefore not having the same rights as a white.
Oh wait… that happened didn’t it?
Damn- looks like I missed a lively thread. Loved the informed, cohesive arguments & love it that so many of you still have the patience & energy to bang your heads against the wall.
@Lee- I’ll give you this: that’s some of the best written rubbish I’ve ever read on here.
Interesting reading all the comments. I must say that there are quite a few comments about H8ers, suck it etc to those who do not believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. This is not a done deal in California yet. Rest assured that politicians will be using this come November to scare people into voting more conservatively. They will use pics of gay ol’ grannies kissing and YOUR COMMENTS to demonize the gay movement while raising money. So, for the sake of the gayz, stop with the hate speech and attacks. You have won the battle, for now, but not the war. Keep your eye on the big picture. Peace out.
@Lee (151): Ignatius J Reilly, what are you doing posting on the internet with a fake name?
ETA: Fear-monger harder, please.
I apologize I screwed up and put my email in the name spot. Mikeyangel and mmcknigh are both me. @ Jo mama, I have always done rather poorly in reading comprehension so I ask you what are you trying to say? Not exactly sure what you mean.
CONGRATS, Cali! Half my family lives in CA but I (proudly) live in Massachusetts, where gay marriage was legalized May 17, 2004 🙂
Reading through this thread, I realized that there’s not much I can say that hasn’t been said. I’ve learned to avoid debates about this topic with religious friends because there is just no reasoning with them and that’s ok. It’s “ok to agree to disagree” (as my mom always says, ad nauseam *eye roll*). I do feel bad that everyone jumped all over Denise and I give her much respect for sticking to her guns (even if I disagree with her). This is a tough forum and I do think that sometimes people tend to get a little personal. Anyway, I love a good debate (French people always do), sorry I missed out on this one!
it sickens me that evil orrupt supreme court would overturn something that people voted for .democracy is a thing of the past.
So this is how liberty dies ,,,,, to thunderous applause.
#159 (can not read your name, sorry)
This is about a law being constitutional, not about what the majority thinks. Slavery was embraced by the majority at the time, but since it violated peoples civil rights the courts ruled it was unconstituional.
“there is a reason for the separation of church and state. There is no point in arguing whether or not you think homosexuality is right or wrong. It is what it is. There are people all over this country living their lives as gay americans, they deserve equal protection under the law. As for quoting the bible yup christianity is against gay marraige but not everyone believes in that religion and the bigotry in certain Bible verses is part of the reason.”
I’ll bet your talking about Old Testament verses. The whole point of the Old Testament is to make clear to us how ALL have fallen short of the glory of God. Then comes the New Testament, full of truth and grace. And a whole lotta love.
Jesus was very clear when questioned about which of the 10 commandments was the most important. He answer was that we were to 1. Love God. 2. Love our neighbors as ourselves.
Is denying our gay friends and neighbors their civil rights loving?? Hell no!! It’s f*cking criminal!
Just skimming through these comments and I find it rather ironic that the people claiming HATE & INTOLERANCE are the very ones who are asking for it for our gay friends.
Though my views on this subject differ from DJ and Denise, I have the decency to respect their opinions. I understand that not all people share my view, I learned that along time ago. Maybe you guys need a refresher course.
After reading such hateful responses , you actually hurt the cause not help it. Is not the message LOVE?
the whole gay-marriage debate isn’t about marriage at all.
it’s about control
a particularly narrow-minded bunch of people want to punish anyone who lives in a way that these right-wingers don’t like.
@DJ denise and other it’s-my-belief types
why should gays change their lives in order to validate your beliefs?
why should gays be forced to live in a way that YOU deem appropriate?
also.. nice going to compare gays to dogs.. when you immediately went to the what-about-marrying-animals defense.. you were comparing gays to animals.
thanks for showing your true selves.
this is about you wanting to impose your personal beliefs on anyone who disagrees.
this is about you wanting to control people you’ve never even met.
on a happier note… yay for equality and btw.. poster xxodettexx rocks. Nice history lesson! Thank you! I couldn’t find those wonderful quotes from the very Founders of the USA. America never was built on christian ideas and I knew that but didn’t have the quotes, so thank you!
and the rest of the equality supporters… thank you too!
and to the “it’s a democracy” yellers trying to use THAT to deny equality.. there was a time when majority said blacks were subhuman and should be slaves, and women should not vote.
CIVIL RIGHTS HAVE NEVER COME FROM MAJORITY RULE.
Irony,
You might benefit a bit by reading the comments vs, simply skimming them before making that statement. There are people on BOTH sides of the issue that have demonstrated very strong views and not always in the the nicest way. To suggest one side is more disrespectful is incorrect, especially if you have as you suggested you only skimmed
the posts.
I may be biased but most of the posters here are really very smart folks, they are not always on the same side of the issue, but they are quite respectful (usually, but we all have our moments) towards each other and overall kind, if you are looking for some sort of silly down and dirty fight try Perez or TMZ some of those folks are really ready to rumble.
Sorry, I don’t mean to offend, but I really like this site because folks here, while they certainly disagree and have heated discussions, treat each other with more respect than most other sites and I for one would like to see it stay that way.
WHY did they put that sticker on that poor dog? Assholes, hope you enjoy the sound of him in agony when you rip his fur off.
As far as the overturn of Prop 8, I have no problem with it. Who am I to tell people who they can and cannot love and/or marry? But I do find it a bit strange that they let a gay judge make the decision. There is no way to be unbias in a situation that directly involves you. People would have a shit fit if, say, a Catholic judge ruled that all students had to recite the Lord’s prayer in public schools. Why is this any different?
I’m quite late to the party here, but want to bring this up for those (thankfully few) of us who think this is some sign of “decline”. Canada, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, etc. etc. all have same-sex marriage. What else do these countries have? Stable societies, a much higher standard of living and much higher level of literacy/education than we have here in the states. I think this is a very good sign for us. Aren’t we supposed to be the country of Liberty and Justice For All?
The thing that bothers me most about this issue – no matter what you believe about gay marriage – is that a non-elected official threw out the will of the voters who voted on this issue twice. Many are celebrating this ruling, but what happens next time when it’s something you don’t agree with? This is a very, very dangerous thing to discount the will of the voters.
yes, nonconsensual sex with an animal is the same as two adults (lots of who have been together for decades) wanting the same rights as people who can marry randomly after just meeting in vegas when they are wasted or people that meet on some stupid tv show and get married for ratings and money, or even political marriages… that makes tons of sense…
@Trillion
“Canada, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, etc. etc. all have same-sex marriage. What else do these countries have? Stable societies, a much higher standard of living and much higher level of literacy/education than we have here in the states.”
I think all of those who like the above societies better than the one here in the US always have the option to relocate to an area with the same beliefs. Would it not be so much better to live in these nations if all you say is true, just curious.
@xxodettexx
I believe you need to quote the complete works before you take the snippets you need to prove your point. It is like the people saying that the bible has inconsistencies. you must be reading a different version than me! one of the new translations I bet.