As horrifically previewed, Fox News aired Megyn Kelly’s interview with Jessa and Jill Duggar last night. Having watched Part 1 – featuring a creepy tour de force of denial by Jim-Bob and Michelle Duggar – I have to say Part 2 wasn’t as bad. It was still pretty awful though. Let’s go through some of the most disturbing and noteworthy moments:
The sisters confirmed their ages when the molestation occurred. Jill was 12, Jessa says she was “9 or 10.”
Josh was “curious”. Jessa explained/diminished the escalation of molestation over the course of a year as “Josh was a boy, a young boy in puberty and a little too curious about girls. And that got him into some trouble. And he made some bad choices, but, really, the extent of it was mild – inappropriate touching on fully clothed victims, most of it while [the] girls were sleeping.” Again, I’m extremely curious about the “most of it” claim.
Josh was “sly” and “subtle”. Jessa said: “He knew in his mind, ‘My actions are wrong and I have bad intentions,’ but he was very sly. Like the girls didn’t catch on. It was like, okay, if you catch the girl sleeping a quick feel or whatever…It was very subtle.” This was easily one of the most disturbing moments.
The safeguards. Jim-Bob and Michelle had previously mentioned that they set up “safeguards” to prevent Josh from molesting his sisters, and Jill and Jessa back up their parents’ story. Jill said: “My parents said, ‘Okay, we’re not going to do this hide-and-seek thing where two people go off and hide together.’ [They put] locks on the doors… You know, everybody’s in bed. Girls in the girls’ room. Boys in the boys’ room … as a mother now I look back, and I think, you know, my parents did such an amazing job for me.” The sisters gloss over the fact that these safeguards were put into place because Josh was molesting them repeatedly over the course of a year, and that even with the “safeguards” in place, he was still abusing them. The sisters also don’t seem to realize that they were being taught not to be molestation-bait for a predator rather than their parents dealing directly with Josh’s actions.
The definition of slander. The whole family needs to look it up, because “slander” does not mean what they think it means. If the Duggars sue, those depositions are going to be especially crazy.
Jessa and Jill blame In Touch Weekly for exploiting them. Megyn Kelly is obsessed with this and the Duggars are still lying. Jessa and Jill repeatedly refer to their family’s full compliance with the investigation lead by the Department of Human Services, but those are not the records given to In Touch Weekly through the FOIA requests. In Touch got their hands on the two separate law enforcement investigations, and both of those investigations were public record and the FOIA requests were completely above-board. The sisters claim that In Touch “exploited” them and hurt them more than Josh ever did. That is… an odd claim, especially since In Touch never named them and Fox News sent out the press release confirming Jessa and Jill as Josh’s victims. It’s also odd considering their parents exploited them repeatedly.
An academic says Josh “probably” isn’t a predator anymore. Megyn Kelly has an agenda and she sticks to it! She’s hellbent on proving that Josh is totally fine now and that of course his loosey-goosey Christian “therapy” worked, so Kelly brought in an academic to “prove” it. You know what would have been even better? Talking to Josh directly instead of allowing Josh’s victims to be used as a human shield to protect and enable the criminal acts of their brother and their parents.
Jessa and Jill don’t care if TLC cancels the show. Which… I mean, sure. At this point, the TLC thing is only one small part of this overall horror show.
Photos courtesy of the Duggars’ social media.
God damn this family is just…urgh. I feel so badly for those girls and I wonder how they could possibly come to the conclusions about their brother they have. No, that’s a lie, we all know exactly how smh
The girls have been brainwashed through years and years of downplaying and victim blaming, plain and simple. This is sick. I hope to god Josh doesn’t get “curious” with his own kids.
They’ve also, likely, been conditioned to believe that they were at fault. I understand the concept of forgiveness. I do not understand them circling the wagons to protect their parents and brother who did nothing at all to protect them.
I’m guessing that the non family victim is his current wife.
Josh hadn’t met Anna yet. The non-family victim was a babysitter.
Talk about sensationalizing… “I’m guessing that non family victim is his current wife” – what basis is there even to put that on?
It all starts with the father, possibly the stupidest and most narcissistic man on the planet. Why does he feel the need to populate the world with his progeny? What else does he feel entitled to do?
The children are prevented for their entire lives from seeing anything other than brainwashing books and videos, including instructing the victims of molestation to think about what they did to DESERVE what happened. They have no skills and are barely literate. All they can do is stick to the script. What else is there?
I’d like to see a list of everyone he abused and when. We’ll never know, but I don’t believe for a minute that he is cured..
You know what really bothers me about this? The victims of the abuse are protecting their abuser, while the abuser is quiet!!!! Everyone is bending over backwards to try to salvage what little is left of their ” brand.” Meanwhile the perpetrator is silent and living his life!!!
This family is so beyond sick and twisted it boggles my mind.
I would like to hear from the victim who is not part of the family. A babysitter I think.
JimBob is pushing for his show to stay on tv. It is there main (only?) source of income. He needs his family to help with the excuses to somehow save the show. TLC loves them because they get high ratings, but if all the advertisers are pulling out, they will have to cancel it.
Belle Epoch, what you wrote here, I agree with. I watched the interview w the father and mother and was just overwhelmed by this guy’s narcissism. The mother looks up to him in this “am I okay? Are my words okay?” subservient manner that is so mind-blowing.
BUT — I don’t know if I agree he is “stupid” – I think he is clever like a fox, a scam artist of the highest level. At first listening to him blather on, I thought like you, “wow this guy has a low IQ and is naive.” THEN I thought — wait, nope, he made a fortune in real estate, conned a tv network into handing over millions, hangs with elected officials, controls a giant pod of people and their brains. So I think he is more like a great actor and as twisted as a cartoon villain.
‘Most of it’? These are the type of women, rapists’ defense lawyers love. If I were defending a rapist, I would want them on the jury. Self hating women just like their cult trained them to be.
Here is a brilliant editorial written by Elizabeth Smart, that was linked by someone on D-Listed:
The Damaging Effects of Shame-Based Sex Education: Lessons From Elizabeth Smart
The reality is that many kids will become sexually active in their teen years. According to research, 80 percent of them. It’s imperative that, while highlighting the benefits of abstinence, we also educate on sexuality and birth control and abuse and consent. It’s also imperative that we teach our kids, and our girls specifically, that THEIR IDENTITY AND WORTH IS NOT TIED TO THEIR VIRGINITY. This is such a dangerous message and is so psychologically damaging. I cannot tell you how many women I have counseled who became sexually active in their teen years and consequently felt like they were damaged goods. And for women who were sexually abused, the broken sense of self is even more compounded by hearing, over and over, that “purity” is the marker of a girl’s worth.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kristen-howerton/damaging-effects-of-shame-based-sex-education-lessons-from-elizabeth-smart_b_3226971.html
It’s only my opinion, which matters no more or less than any others’, but the women are not just upfront with this ‘nothing really happened’ as a method to protect their brother, but also to protect themselves; their own worth and value. If nothing really happened, their purity and value, as females, was left intact, after these episodes.
Excellent point. Again, my self worth and my mom taught me that SOMETHING happened and no one should get away with it.
Thanks for the link.
wow, good point
Elizabeth Smart really blows me away. I remember the hoopla that surrounded her kidnapping and return to her family. I thought the poor thing didn’t stand a chance. Her parents publically stated that she would not be receiving counseling, and they were quick to state that she was dating, and happy. Then they had a primetime interview that included Elizabeth riding on horseback with her long golden hair flowing. I thought – she’s already the victim of some freak obsessed with her, now her parents are exposing her to millions of strangers.
I think what Elizabeth has accomplished is in spite of her parents, and what a great advocate she’s become.
Mayamae:
She explains in her book why she chose not to get counseling, so I’m gonna give her parents a pass on that. In her case, devoting her life to helping exploited children has helped her heal, but unlike many exploited children, she had the opportunity to graduate from high school and attend college. The Duggar girls never had that chance. Even without the molestation, they were never allowed to choose their own paths or feel empowered.
Fortunately for Elizabeth Smart, her Mormon bishops told her privately and announced publicly in numerous interviews that NOTHING that had happened to her during her kidnapping ordeal was her fault and that neither God nor the Mormon church could or would ever judge her for the evils she suffered. One bishop even said that to question or to blame Elizabeth for not trying to flee her captors earlier was wrong; the blame should be squarely placed on the kidnappers. I also do not recall any of the Mormon elders or bishops encouraging her to publicly forgive the perps either. Instead they seemed overjoyed that she was back home and wanted to surround her with love and reassurance that they saw her as the same girl she had been before she was taken.
This is not the message the Duggar victims have been receiving. Not from their parents, not from their church, and not from their supporters. They deserve better.
Good on those bishops. That should be a standard response by any bishop of any denomination for any abuse, but sadly it’s not the case.
My heart hurts for these Duggar girls. I so hope they can break free one day.
@mayamae – I agree with your assessment about Elizabeth but not her parents. I feel that if Elizabeth had not wanted the interview she would have stopped it – she is very strong. As for her parents – if they had not kept pushing most likely Elizabeth would not have been located, if they had not 100% supported her when she returned she would most likely not be the same person she is today. While not perfect, I do think that the family put Elizabeth first above all – they way it should be for all kids.
Unfortunately, most abuse cases look more like the Duggar situation where it’s someone in the home and it’s more “subtle”. Most victims are not taken from their room at knifepoint by a stranger, like the Elizabeth Smart case. The reason her case made such huge headlines was because it struck a nerve with so many people that this could happen out of nowhere in a safe neighborhood. Every parents’ worst fear. But also a minority of sexual assault cases happen that way.
2 Questions-
If Josh had not apologized and resigned from his position and the family didn’t respond to any of the police reports resurfacing, do you think this would have gone away? I think, unfortunately, probably yes,
How damaged do you have to be to go on television and defend your molester? I pity these women and yet they irritate me at the same time. Why are they blaming Intouch? Are they stupid or… what? I don’t get it.
They’re legitimately conflicted. I’m not condoning –at all– the awful position they’ve been put in, nor their parents’ willingness to just smooth things over so Josh wouldn’t have to face real repercussions. But neither of these girls want to see their family destroyed and in their minds, they hold those keys now. If they’re “over it”, nothing much changes in their family and their parents aren’t stressed further. If they’re not “over it”, they’re the catalyst that blows the whole thing up. It’s an untenable position. They’re parents need to own it all, when it comes to the girls. And Josh needs to own it all when it comes to his behavior as a teen. The whole situation is just sad. And I hope Josh’s wife is on high alert.
Very well said, Tracy. I can only imagine what that must feel like. Throughout their ordeal, they’ve been bearing the burden of responsibility– the responsibility for being abused, and now for upholding the family’s “good name.” That kind of pressure, along with the trauma of being abused and shamed, must be absolutely killing them. I feel for these girls, I really do.
Honestly, I think they might feel deep down that something is wrong with how this has been handled by their family but family is literally all they know. Can you imagine what would happen if they didn’t play along? They would be disowned. Its easy from an outside perspective to say “Who cares, your family is nuts anyways” but family is linked to their identity. It would take years of therapy for them to be able to stand up to their parents and brother. Its all pretty sad. As a child you trust so much in your parents and they have been so so wronged in this regard.
Having been molested by my brother, I understand. To this day, everyone in my family except me has a relationship with my brother (I actually stopped speaking to him not because of the molestation so much, but a ton of other things he did when I was older and he didn’t molest me anymore, like telling me I should kill myself, etc.)
When I was 19 I admitted to my sister what had happened. I asked her not to tell Mom, but she did. My mom had a talk with me where she told me she had actually known when it happened (I was 8, my brother was 12), that it wasn’t my brother’s fault, and that if I had really loved her, I would never had said anything. Later that night she took a bottle of Vicodin and a bottle of vodka. That very effectively put me in my place.
Now whenever I see my mom (a few times a year, since my parents live out of state), she raves about how wonderful my brother is, and how well he’s doing for himself (apparently he hardly ever hits his wife anymore). Honestly that hurts me more than being molested did, but I’m scared of how she’ll react if I say anything. Likewise, there’s a part of me that would like to say outside of anonymous websites and to more people than my BFF and fiance ‘I was molested by my brother’, especially since this story came out and people all around me are making excuses for this piece of garbage, but if my mom reacted that way when just family found out, what would she do if I said something publicly?
It’s easier to protect the family than to stir the pot. I don’t want to protect my brother. But I don’t want to hurt my mom.
This is so disturbing. I can’t believe they think it’s normal to have these rules, separating the boys and girls so they don’t get molested, like c’mon, how can they say this crap with straight faces. Remove the problem. I feel bad for these girls, their future children and for Josh’s children.
Give a predator the possibility of being locked inside a room with young possible victims?!? If he touched any of his brothers I doubt theyd EVER reveal it because being a sister molester is one thing to these people due to their devaluing of females and praise of all things male but if you introduced a speck of homosexuality into it, they’d lose their minds.
I strongly suspect he went after the boys too but none of them would ever tell the parents, especially considering their own mother’s stupid and hateful and bigoted views about sexuality.
I wonder that myself, Lilac, I think it’s possible. It’s possible that the parents also knew, if it did happen, but would keep that under wraps.
The predator I was related to went after everything – boys, girls, horses and cows. Crazy POS.
In addition to the devaluing of women by the cult there is also an element of shame in being a victim. Speaking from experience I can tell you I always thought that I must have done something, sent some signal for these things to happen to me. So I can see why the victims in this case downplay it, they’re probably also feeling inappropriate shame over it.
Didn’t one of them also say something about being grateful for the safeguards of locks and how she is going to put locks on her kids doors too??!!!!
Oh my this is all kinds of messed up.
They were brought up to believe that is good parenting and now they are going to pass those beliefs onto their children. Scary and sick stuff.
This is so messed up on so many levels I do not know where to start.
S mong other things gs, isn’t this an incredibly dangerous thing to do? What if there were a fire or one of the girls h ad a medical emergency? You do not padlock children into their rooms at night! Reckless endangerment anyone?
And of course, it didn’t stop anything…..
You know an irony here? I distinctly remember being told in self-defense class to yell “Fire!” if I came under assault – because, and I quote, “People are more likely to react or answer quickly when they hear that than if you ‘just’ yell ‘Rape!’ or ‘this man is hurting me!’ ”
As disturbing as the reasoning and implications behind that may be, just imagine in the Duggar house… if any of those girls had yelled “Fire!” then it’s likely the parents would have reacted, and the girls might have been praised for doing the right thing and helping to save everyone else.
A far cry from if they had – or had been able – to yell “Rape!” and save themselves.
Locks on bedroom doors, particularly for a kids room, are actually a huge fire hazard.
Thank you! I saw a “Wife Swap” episode where they locked their teenaged boy up at night and aside from that being wrong and disturbing, I couldn’t stop thinking about the fire aspect!
Yes, and that statement should be enough to get Arkansas CHS to inspect those homes immediately.
That was exactly where I was going. Why isn’t CPS and the fire department on this? This is incredibly dangerous.
Only current governor Asa Hutchinson can answer that. Aren’t he and his brother big proponents of “family values?”
Their so-called “safeguards” are a tacit admission that Josh is a child molester and will abuse his sisters every chance he gets. It’s as if a child was a compulsive thief and instead of addressing that issue, the parents decided the way to handle it was to keep all wallets and other valuables under lock and key at all times. It doesn’t solve the kid’s psychological problems – it just makes it harder for him to get his hands on something to steal.
Well what else were they going to say? They have been brainwashed to think that men can do anything to girls/women. If it happens that a man does something he shouldn’t it’s never wrong on his part, it’s always the fault of a woman.
It’s really disgusting to see how the monster parents have damaged those girls….
Hope TLC will finally cancel their show.
But this is being onown now because of the show. I can’t imagine how many women who suffer abuse go unnoticed in those cults.
They will care once the money and publicity is gone. Just ask Kate Gosselin.
I have compassion for these girls. This situation was in no way their fault and yes, their anonymity and privacy was invaded.
BS. There are how many sisters? More than 4. Go back to watching Fox.
I feel bad for these women, who were put in a position where their own brother molested them, that it continued for more than a year, that their parents minimized this experience, and yes, that it was revealed.
Agreed- and now they’re getting paraded on TV having to talk about how it basically ‘wasn’t that bad’- sick.
…by the network and the parents who agreed to use them in this interview. The documents were redacted. People were guessing at who the victims were until this interview.
And we still do not know for certain who the other victims are. Unless desperation to save their money source leads them to cart out the others for the public to see.
It’s pretty easy to figure out if you know the family. There were only five girls at the time, and the police report states four were molested. We also know that one of the girls is still underage, so for sure we know the seventeen year old was a victim.
I don’t believe Josh’s crimes should have stayed hidden, but I think the person who redacted the police report should have protected the Duggar girls by redacting their parent’s names.
Come on. Everyone knew. There were only five daughters at the time that it could have been. If you look through the earlier Duggar posts here at Celebitchy alone, people had worked it out based on the ages.
InTouch was a d*ck for making this public. I was molested by my cousin, and I can only imagine how I’d feel now if my ability to decide who knows and who doesn’t was taken away and my story was put in headlights for the whole world to see.
You don’t like the cult these girls are in–I get that. But that doesn’t mean this becoming public didn’t take away their choice and their agency AGAIN.
Yes, their disgusting parents are ultimately at fault–first for creating a situation that would warp their son, second for not protecting their daughters, and third for putting their daughters in a position where this would inevitably be exposed. But that doesn’t mean InTouch has clean hands.
@Samtha — I don’t watch their show and my reference is to the public at large. Most people in the US know they have a bunch of kids, sure. But how many actually read the report, looked up the kids names/ages OR dug into various sites to see who had “figured it out”? Very few out of the US population, I would imagine.
I am sorry for what you experienced, and understand it’s put these young women in an embarrassing spot to have this known. But the InTouch story would not have gained this level of traction in the first place had the parents and Fox News not decided to dig the hole deeper (and positively ID two of the victims for EVERYONE to know).
Their faces are now splashed all over numerous media outlets, thanks to (once again) their PARENTS and Fox News.
If you mean by their parents, then yes. They outed themselves.
@BeckyR, yes, it is horrible that their parents chose to out them to Fox News, isn’t it?
It was…by Fox News and their parents. In Touch never released their names or confirmed that the victims were his sisters. It was their parents who made that decision and Fox News went there. Even if the whole world assumed that the victims were his sisters, there privacy would not have been ‘invaded’ if their parents refused to confirm their identity.
I 100% agree with you. They felt they had to speak once this was outed, (maybe to protect their other sisters????) whatever their motivation.
The publicity and their disgusting parents exploiting the situation and the parents looking for SYMPATHY is victimizing them all over again.
I mentioned this already on Gawker – but the youngest victim was five years old. Awake, on his lap while he as her a book when she was five years old.
How do they justify his “curiosity” with a five year old? Because he knew he could get away with an awake girl if she was five. Their protection of him churns my stomach.
They said she wasn’t even aware of it. So, never mind.
Ugh. They can’t go off in pairs and they lock off the girls room. This is crazy. They are basically saying that teenage boys will have a natural desire to molest their sisters so we need to protect him from doing that. This is not normal. A teenager may want to experiment with girls but if they are not allowed its not natural that they then turn to their sisters. And I am so sick of people supporting this family. They are not a good Christian family with Christian values. They do not care that their daughters were victims and they pretty much let them continue to be victims
They lied through their teeth all through that interview. I lost track of the outright falsehoods and inconsistencies. At first I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt since it is not uncommon for victims to minimize the offenses or defend a perp who is a family member or fail to remember details of the molestations. But as the interview unfolded, everything about their body language and speech patterns was really off. When they flat out contradicted the police reports over and over again and repeatedly implied that their private DHS records were released when they were not and that Arkansas officials had broken the law to hurt them personally due to some mysterious agenda, I realized that these girls were hell bent on protecting the Duggar brand more than anything else.
In photographs of Michelle and one of the daughters, you can clearly see papers in their laps. A script to reference, perhaps?
yes watching the parents it was very clear they had a coach and scripts
Yes — I think we saw a lot of brand-protecting coaching. My guess is that with the older girl, this stress of this coaching and fear of making a mistake reduced her to tears as much as anything.
I found myself thinking that if these girls had had a chance to get an education, they might have had a chance to be more in life, and expand and grow into interesting people. As it it, they seem like intrinsically intelligent people who have since childhood been purposely so heavily stunted, programmed and silenced and cowed by their narcissistic father and goofy mother that now their minds are just used to memorize the “script” of their parents and cult.
There is some serios emotional disconnect here. Notice how Jessa talks about it – downplaying it (“he made some bad choices”), avoiding to accurately describe it (“inappropriate touching on fully clothed victims”), talking about it as if it had nothing to do with HER (“girls”, “the girls”). She is trying so hard to emotionally distance herself when you can tell that really, she is hurting like hell (no pun intended). I feel for her. I so, so feel for her and her sisters. My heart goes out to them and to everybody who knows first-hand what these women are actually talking about.
Jessa seems to be the most “brainwashed” out of the bunch.
The parents treated Josh like a predator. If they were locking doors to bar him from the girls, THEY THINK he has/had uncontrollable/unresolved predilections. There is no two ways about it.
According to Wikipedia (hopefully it is correct, I like that it is condensed), March 2002, Josh admits to inappropriately touching sisters on MULTIPLE occasions. “Jim Bob said that Josh was disciplined at home (in an unspecified manner)…In March 2003, Jim Bob and Michelle learned of additional incidents….Jim Bob said he shared his concerns with church elders.[32][33]….Jim Bob told police that he had enrolled Josh in a program consisting of physical labor and counseling, after consulting with his church’s leadership.[32][33] Michelle said that Josh had been sent away from home for a period of three months to work for a family friend who was remodeling a building.[32][36] Later reports suggest that Josh may have been sent to a facility in Little Rock, Arkansas, owned by the Institute in Basic Life Principles, a ministry and adolescent training program founded by Bill Gothard….Upon Josh’s return home in July 2003, Jim Bob brought Josh to Arkansas State Trooper Jim Hutchens, an acquaintance.”
Josh “confessed” in 2002. By 2003, the parents Learned of more incidences (no idea if Josh ‘confessed again, but this is an ENTIRE YEAR LATER). He is sent away March 2003. and gone for three months, either doing construction, hard labor, or being subject to direct Christian ministering/”counseling” (maybe all of the above), and upon his return, they bring him to the trooper? If all of the counseling and labor was effective, why at the end of all of this do they THEN call upon the police? Either the behavior was repeated, but not reported in the interview, or they were abundantly concerned that the behavior would resume, they, themselves, saw him AS A PREDATOR.
I’m not buying what they are selling. Where was the long term corrective psychological counseling for Josh?
JOSH continued after the “confession”. I don’t know if I stressed that enough.
The girls said they didn’t know anything happened until their parents told them. If they had no personal knowledge, why would the police (or whoever) be interested in what they had to say. They were just repeating what their parents told them happened.
Didn’t they lock the girls in, or did I misconstrued that?
That may have happened, someone reported it, but I’m not sure when.
I think they started locking the girls in after it kept happening. That was one of their ‘safeguards’. Possibly endangering all of the girls, because they all sleep together.
I suggested above that this is in and of itself is reckless endangerment, abuse, and neglect. I did some research, and in many states it is illegal to lock children in their rooms due to the fire hazard. Children can DIE as the result of this shit.
I thought the sisters were supposed to lock themselves in? Probably read it wrong. But they say that his molestations continued over a year despite the locks, so there’s no point in putting up locks then.
I get that they as a family didn’t know how to handle his actions and that they didn’t want to abandon him. I don’t know what I would do if my son would do things like that. Must be a horrible situation. But the one thing you certainly do is keeping the girls safe. At all costs.
Later reports suggest that Josh may have been sent to a facility in Little Rock, Arkansas, owned by the Institute in Basic Life Principles, a ministry and adolescent training program founded by Bill Gothard…
Then he probably came out of there even worse.
Sounds like something Scientology would do as well…hard work to make mental issues go away. Brilliant.
I’m surprised that the legality of getting the the records didn’t come up sooner–and that the files weren’t sealed because there were minors involved. I get that it was all above board and their names were redacted, etc, but i’m still a little surprised in touch could get a copy of it. All that said, the what a horrible sad mess. I’d like to see someone ask them again about their statements on lbgt people being pedophiles.
I think because it was a complaint not an arrest record or trial transcript. Notice the CPS records haven’t been released.
It’s called the Freedom of Information Act. The records were acquired legally. Again the Duggars are lying.
And Fox News is lying too.
Each state as well as the federal government have their own open records laws. Arkansas has very broad open records laws. Some states would not have allowed access to these kinds of records. Just because someone makes a FOIA request, doesn’t mean it will be granted. In this case, the records requested were allowable for production. Arkansas, for as backward as it is in so many areas, is very progressive when it comes to the First Amendment.
someone likely slipped up and they released it when they shouldnt have and/or they didn’t redact names/other identifying info when they should have. the mistakes in redaction happen all the time
Everything was redacted that was required to be redacted under the law, and until Fox, nobody named the victims.
Of course when you have a police report from Arkansas regarding a family with 19 children whose parents are named Michelle and Jim Bob, it becomes easy to read between the lines.
Having said this though, I hope they do sue: the media will have a field day with their depositions.
I do not lay any blame on the authorities who released the documents– they were legally required to do so. I blame the Duggars for selling their children out to the media in the first place. They sought notoriety, and they got it.
A week ago, very few people out of the general population would have dug into the InTouch story, the police reports, etc., or visited sites like this to figure out who the victims *might* be (keep in mind some speculated one or more of the victims may have been male).
When the parents opted to chase reality TV notoriety, they should have known they were becoming public figures. As such, any skeletons in the closet would come rattling out eventually. And they chose to reveal two of the victims THEMSELVES. They are the ones who turned the spotlight to the highest setting.
I read that the Duggars’ delaying tactics meant that the police report was not finalled filed until Josh was 18 and regarded as an adult molester – even though the statute of limitations expired. The records expunged the victims names – however the Duggars were the ones that revealed their daughters’ identities for the TV special
Josh was an adult at the time of the complaint. And the names were redacted in the documents, but the public was able to guess fairly easily based on ages given. Fox News was the first to officially name Jessa and Jill. By your logic, all children molester’s records would be sealed because they by definition involve minor victims. Which I’m assuming you dont actually mean.
No laws were broken with that FOIA release, itwas all totally above board.
No, that’s not my logic. He was 14 and 15 when the molesting took place (as far as we know). I understand now that 17 is the age of majority in Arkansas, and he was 17 when the police investigation happened. I’m not going to defend anything about this horrible family. I have never watched their show, have no patience for their hypocrisy , and despise them for their bigotry as well as the way they handled this family situation. And yet, I can keep all of this in my mind, and still wonder how it happened that the records of a minor became public. Thanks to the explanations provided here, I get it. It also sounds like it might not have happened in a different state, or if his parents hadn’t delayed reporting, so I’m not surprised that they are trying to use this as a sympathy ploy. Better to understand why, and even honestly question whether or not it’s a good thing in a more global sense, than to get dragged into their sympathy ploy.
Sorry Birdix, I was being snarky but don’t actually think you were defending him or them.
Arkansas has one of the most liberal FOIA laws in the country, so everything that was released to In Touch in their FOIA requests were totally legit. The Duggars are attempting as hard as they can to position the information that In Touch got through the FOIA was not above board and was done illegally. I hope they sue, but they’ll just threaten it and won’t follow through — because they KNOW they have no case.
I only heard excerpts of Jim Bob’s interview, but those excerpts suggest he wants to seal minor’s records. He seems more concerned about that subject than the molestation that occurred.
It’s actually the Duggars own fault. They waited until the statute of limitations ran out then went to the police. Josh was no longer a child at the time of the complaint.
For those wanting the girls to get their own show, I hope you realize now how brainwashed these girls actually are & you’ll just be throwing more money at the cult.
I hope this catastrophe will start TLC’s ultimate distruction
It would be hard to stomach watching them raise their own children considering how damaged they are (and have no doubt lacked the proper counseling). Never mind the culty aspects.
If the girls were asleep how did they even know it was happening or had happened? That raises more questions!
They said they didn’t know until their parents told them what happened.
Please, I’m sure that’s just what they have been told to say/the story for the church and public. I’m sure there is more to this story that is NOT being told
Right? Or no way not one of the five of his victims woke up.
What was the name of the academic, Kaiser?
Wow celeb itchy you have a torch in the hand and a pitch fork in another.
Yeah jeez noone every gives child molesters a break!
When it comes to the Duggars, no-one gives the victims a break either.
Because really, who hasnt done some inappropriate touching of children when they were a teenager? It’s just normal acting out.
OR maybe just a desire to expose these lying hypocrites for what they actually are.
Don’t understand this comment. You seem to be saying (I could be wrong about this so please forgive my confusion) that posters on this site are over-reacting because young girls have apparently been molested – including a five year old – and the expressions of disapproval/outrage/disgust are a form of ‘witch hunt’ and so inappropriate? How else would you expect people to react over such stories – with approval? Whether or not those girls were asleep is immaterial, because of their age, power imbalance, or lack of awareness they could not give consent. Consent is crucial because without it those actions were highly abusive.
No torch, fire scares me.
Potato launchers?
Yes. Filled with rocks. And yes, I am without guilt on the issue of child molestation or defending pedophiles.
Haha, nice TROLLING.
Roxy I don’t want to know what you’ve got in your hand
Thank you for a much-needed snort.
http://tinyurl.com/ngeoktx
Your screen name makes me so happy. Also this comment is gold.
Following last night’s interview, one of the Duggars’ pastors (from a Texas church they attend when in town) and Fox contributor Dr. Keith Ablow gave their opinions.
Ablow isn’t buying what they selling. At all!
I saw that. Normally, I think Ablow is rather out there but he knew the standard rules on pedophile diagnosis and he was sticking to them. The pastor was off the wall insane.
So the pastor was the “academic” ?
He just kept screaming that it was none of anybody’s business. Not very academic at all, although he claimed that he does pastoral counseling so perhaps Fox News considers that an academic.
“An academic says Josh “probably” isn’t a predator anymore.”
Was this something Kelly said about some unnamed or named academic, or was there an academic on, who actually said this?
Something tells me that that “academic” is a popular “expert” for those classified as “sexually dangerous” when they try to appeal their civil commitments, which can be life-long.
I don’t disagree, but I would like to have a look-see into credentials and IF this person provides expert testimony on releases, etc. and how often they veer one way or another as to the danger/ threat in society. Do you know if Kelly NAMED this person, or if she just said, “I talked to an academic” sort of thing? Or was the pastor considered the academic in this circumstance? When someone makes a statement like that, they should back it with some experience and expertise in the subject, KWIM?
Bleh, I guess I wasted enough time and should get moving to work.
The Ablow/pastor video is worth a watch. As noted above, Ablow is calling it pedophilia and he doesn’t stick up for the ‘wonderful’ parents (as the pastor describes them) at all.
@Christin, and then they haul in a “criminal defense attorney” to talk about public records, which is not the area of expertise of a criminal defense attorney at all. And even he was freaked out about the situation and said he would want to know where Josh Duggar was at all times.
@Lilacflowers, I stopped watching just as the ‘criminal defense attorney’ started talking, so I missed that.
I flipped over to Fox against my better judgment last night, but was thrilled to see the pastor / Ablow exchange. I’m glad there was another ‘contributor’ who didn’t stick to the ‘oh, this is not such a big deal’ mantra.
I just watched the exchange on another website. I love how riled up the pastor got and the doctor was so calm. I especially loved how the pastor made that comment about the ‘left’ media being awful about this and the doctor said ‘this isn’t a political issue, and I’m a conservative!’ LOL I love how he kept saying it was ‘bizarre’ . That pastor got so riled up. God, this whole situation is so gross.
I watch Fox all the time, and most everyone are very disturbed by this story and believe that information is missing including everyone on Outnumbered (4 women) and The Five. Hannity wasn’t defending the family either. He was just letting Ablow and that out of control preacher go at each other.
In addition, over at breitbart dot com. John Nolte wrote a great article on the dhuplicity of the Duggars and how they hurt other Christians by their “form” of Christianity
http://www.breitbart.com/big-hollywood/2015/06/05/it-is-long-past-time-to-dump-the-duggars/
Glad to see that bette. I don’t understand anyone carrying water for something this horrible. But Kelly did appear to do so.
If they didn’t want this in the public eye they should have never done the show. I’m amazed they kept it secret for this long. There have been plenty of whispers over the years on message boards. It finally had enough fuel to make it a national story.
It concerns me greatly that people all over are making light of this story. As in.. meh.. it’s No BIG deal!
Every single time i read a new article regarding this story, my mind goes back to all those robo-calls the Duggars made against LGB(especially)TQ people, saying they were secretly pedophiles and perverts and all the while, they knew this was happening. I wonder if they thought about Josh’s actions when making those robo-calls, but i’m guessing they rationalized it by saying “Josh repented! He accepts Jesus!” which ooobviously makes it all okay right?
EDIT: Been arguing with a pro-Duggar piece of trash on Twitter who, yes, believes that this is all just a ~*liberal*~ conspiracy. Didn’t take long for him/her to say “Bill Clinton got a BJ and the liberals made a hero out of him!” because a relationship between two adults (not saying that it was the right thing to do, though they were both adults) is the same thing as a 15 year old molesting young girls, including a 5 year old. YEAH!!! SAME THING!!! I can’t believe the length pro-Duggars would go to, to defend this family!
It’s NEVER A defense to say, “Look over there”. It’s a diversionary tactic. It’s not germane to the circumstances here, it doesn’t mitigate actions.
I completely agree. I’m not old enough to know/remember how the media covered the Clinton affair but even if the ~*liberals*~ did “make a hero out of Bill,” what the Duggars did are still reprehensible and fit for condemnation. Two things CAN be right at the same time!!
If this /is/ a “liberal conspiracy” to tarnish the names of good, God-fearing people, then what does that make Fox News? Pedophile-apologists? Child molester supporters? I’ll take the liberal conspiracy, thanks.
I looked at the comments on the Fox News website and it seems that somebody must have passed out a memo that “Lena Dunham” must be screamed at to anyone who questions the Duggars’s actions and that Lena Dunham is a liberal icon. Apparently, Lena Dunham is the new Bill Clinton. Lena Dunham’s disgusting behavior does not excuse or give license to Josh Duggar’s disgusting behavior and it certainly doesn’t excuse the actions of Michelle and Jim-Bob Duggar. I have written HBO that Dunham should be off the air as well and no, a conservative news network labeling a person a “liberal icon” does not make that person a liberal icon. I’m a liberal and, as far as I’m concerned, Dunham is a spoiled, privileged, attention-seeking creep with no fashion sense. Now, can they stop diverting and focus on the fact that an untreated pedophile has three, soon to be four, children in his home and access to minor brothers and sisters too, who live in a house where their parents are too busy campaigning and lying about gays to protect those kids?
Hallelujah and Amen, sister Lilac.
Yes to all of this!
I don’t like the girl at all. How is she a liberal icon? She has a little show on HBO. There’s a million shows on TV. Her show was never a bit ratings hit. It had a loyal, small following, and it hit low ratings this year. One episode was on around 400,000 viewers. Icon? LOL It appears some of that ratings drop had to do with people being turned off by the sister comments in her book and the untruthful part of her sexual assault that blew up in her face. And her pretentiousness.
Fox viewers or fundamentalists who are trying to hang their hat on Lena are just trying to deflect. Lena has gotten plenty of bad press and instead of the next big thing, her popularity has been falling this year.
I don’t know anything about Lena, but wasn’t she seven when the incidents with her sister happened? Not excusing her, but seven is a vastly different age than 15.
Yes! to every single thing you wrote.
A classic case of whataboutery.
As far as I’m concerned, if your argument is founded on “what about so and so” or Hitler, you’ve lost the argument.
I raised this on the last thread, can people please stop referring to these two women as “girls?” They are 22 and 24 year old married women with all the rights of an adult, even though they may choose not to exercise those rights . Calling them “girls” just perpetuates the position that women can never be responsible, autonomous adults who choose their own paths and make their own decisions.
I don’t think it’s intentional, lilac. You can caught up in the past, when they were abused as girls. So mixing past and present like, “I feel sorry for these girls”, as in when they were girls, even though they are now women.
That and aren’t at least two of the other victims still technically girls?
I dont understand :
1. why the parents told the press about jill and jessa.
2. why the victims got an interview, while josh, the molester, is missing
3. why no one (duggars kids) protest or leave their family. I mean, come one, some of them arent teens anymore. anyone who use their brain will know that there is something or many things wrong in this family…
how can all of them so obidient and never ask any questions..
smh
To number 3, when you’ve been raised in a family that shows you no other way aside from the church, the parents and the clown car of siblings, there really is no where and no one to protest or leave to. These kids don’t even have proper education. They’re so very sheltered that they don’t even know that being molested is not a normal thing to happen to anyone. I can’t imagine they can just pack up and leave. They wouldn’t survive very long out there.
Zappy, I’m sure these women are rewarded emotionally for going this route by their parents, the religious community, as well as the political ties who want damage control. These women and their entire family were richly financially rewarded for their beliefs and lifestyle as it was highlighted on a lucrative reality show. So they are getting more than enough positive reinforcement to continue.
thanks for the answer,
i still can understand their exclusivity -is it even a word ? idk lol – but at the same time they have a reality show running.
they have internet, right?
i dont know, I think they’re enjoy that kind of life. they are rich.
sorry if I judge them…
They are trained since they were babies to obey, not to be curious or daring.
They put the baby on a blanket on the floor and if the baby crawls out of the blanket, the parent will hit the baby’s hands with a wooden spoon until s/he gets the message.
Oh god please don’t tell me they actually do that 🙁
I googled the therm, and yes, I sadly inform you that the Duggar use it. It is discussed in the comment section of an article in an unofficial fan blog: “Quiet and Still: Teaching Self-Control” (how Michelle teaches self control, supposedly), it is not mentioned in the article ( they are being careful about what they share, I guess), but their followers discuss it with some people that disagree. It is… well let’s say some people really are into obedience.
One of their other daughters is not in line with the whole marry & breed agenda. I don’t watch the show so I’m not sure which one she is (I think she’s a mid-wife and does not have a boyfriend) but I would bet she was also a victim and could be the first/only one to break.
I had to look it up, her name is Jana.
Please, for the love of all things Holy, don’t think for a second that I’m trying to defend these crazies…but I have to say this: the police report didn’t show the names of the victims but it did show the ages and it did confirm that they were the siblings of the perpetrator. It wasn’t hard to figure out who they were.
I agree with you. The information was thinly veiled.
err.. and then their own parent tell the press about which ones of their daughter was molested by their own son. not only that, but also arranged an interview for the girls, so they can defend their molester..
maybe I am dumb but I fail to see the logic here ..
That’s standard public records redaction.
Agreed. We all knew. No one was questioning WHO his victims were in any article or post I read before the Duggar Interview. We all knew 4 of his sisters were victims based on the police report. Hell the names were frequently spelled out in the comments. Maybe it wasn’t CONFIRMED publicly but we all knew. it was obvious.
There are tons of reasons to despise this family but I’m side-eyeing the “They named their own daughters!” outrage almost as much as I’m side-eyeing Jim Bob’s “It was all a liberal conspiracy!” bag of bullshit.
By the way, something interesting I noticed in the first interview: Apparently the perv cop that Jim Bob sent Josh to claims Jim Bob downplayed the number of times Josh molested. He implies he would’ve taken action if he knew the extent of his behavior. It was one of the few times I saw Jim Bob a little rattled in the interview. “Um..I’m not sure why he’d say that..” Jim Bob was so calculating and arrogant. Anyone that’s seen the show knows Josh has an arrogant streak. Clearly he got it from Jim Bob but I never noticed it until now.
JimBob also lied when he claimed that he randomly picked state trooper Hutchens as Josh’s confessor and he lied claiming he didn’t know him.
Something that really really bothers me is that JB chose 2 men to “help” his son who themselves had been committing sex offenses under the radar.
Both have since been caught. Hutchens is serving 50+ years for child pornography and Gothard resigned his IBLP leadership after multiple women including a 17 year old accused him of sex harassment.
I want an intervention for those girls and every female in that cult. This is some CO$ level mind f**kery.
Again, the ones exposing these girls and re-victimizing them again are their parents and their beloved Fox News-everyone else had redacted the names of the victims prior to this interview.
I hardly know where to start-the absurdity of them having the girls lock their doors at night in order to keep them safe, while at the same time proclaiming that their pedo son was “cured”, Jessa saying that everyone has made a big deal over “inappropriate touching” but also saying that he was sly and subtle, which to me doesn’t infer anything positive and then to have Jill claim that their parents did such a great job protecting them. It makes me sad and sickened that all these girls have all been taught that their bodies and sexuality are things to be locked up and in fear of until they marry and become baby factories for god.
I didn’t sense that the girls were locking their doors. I got that the parents put a lock on the outside of the door and locked them in.
I suppose they were lucky they didn’t have to wear hand-forged iron chastity belts to save their vile brother from themselves. Although I suppose Mamabot Duggar could have worn the keys on a special ‘all-my-children’ sort of Kay’s Mother’s Day charm bracelet.
Yup, it isn’t Josh that has to answer for the crimes HE committed! Jessa and Jill are the ones being trotted out for interviews; hence, having to answer questions about what happened to them and reliving that entire nightmare all over again. Meanwhile, Josh is being hidden away.
Saying Josh was sly and subtle, made him sound even creepier!
Just when you thought that couldn’t be possible.
Tip of iceberg; tip of iceberg.
I wonder if she used that wording on purpose.
I don’t know enough about psychology to know if these people are delusional or simply compulsive liars.The girl who was molested in the laundry room was aware of what he did and she was awake.Enough of this BS about the girls being asleep and having to be told they were abused BECAUSE he confessed.Enough of this BS about the parents going to police.The investigation started in 2006 BECAUSE the Oprah show called the child abuse hotline and then Duggars were contacted.
The family has admitted to a couple of times not over the clothes, under the clothes of two victims. The girls are trying to wash over that. And let’s face it, I will never believe it was like the Duggars say, a couple of seconds over the clothes, a quick touch. Who do they think they are fooling? At the least it was a couple of minutes and I’m sure he went under their clothes. He just doesn’t have to admit it since they were sleeping. Funny how the only times he admits under the clothes is the victims that were awake, and so he can’t deny those two. If he will go into their pants while they are awake and these are instances occurred after he had already confessed before and been in trouble with his parents, there is no doubt that his sleeping victims he definitely felt up under the clothes. It’s just common sense.
It’s hard to believe they were asleep every time. Several commenters here and on other sites say they experienced similar assaults and pretended to be asleep.
I am just amazed that anyone, anywhere can possibly defend this as normal behavior. I’ve read comments from males saying there is no way it is normal as a teenager to want to go into your siblings’ room and touch them.
Christin, I agree. He said he did it multiple nights. At least one of them had to have woken up. I have a feeling that’s what made him go to his parents, worried one of them knew what he was doing. I don’t think it would be uncommon to pretend to be asleep if this was happening and then roll over or something to stop it.
The Duggars spanked and/or beat their kids with a rod. It’s part of their religious beliefs, corporal punishment, and the one daughter in the police interview said all of them have received spankings with the rod when they are bad. I have no doubt Jim Bob took him to the woodshed after this. So it goes far past “curious” like she plays off. To have your parents know and be talked to and disciplined and then to have so little control over yourself that you do it several more times and it’s now escalated to while they are awake because he can’t get in their beds at night, and the last time to a five-year-old is beyond very concerning. Josh needed real counseling, not that place they send him run by a sexual pervert it turns out, who had all kinds of allegations against him, Gothard.
I can’t see bashing the victims. The girls have been victimized so much already, no need to heap on the pile. Victimized with the cult training that devalues wonen, victimized by their brother, revictimized by their parents, forced into the public and on and on.
I hope that the show is canceled so maybe they will have a chance at a normal life. This has to be painful.
Just awful!
I don’t see anyone actually bashing the victims.
I don’t see anyone bashing the victims either. I see some people showing their confusion as to why the victims would protect their molester but I don’t see bashing.
yeah, bashing is a strong word and I don’t feel that’s the attitude on this blog
Once a predator ALWAYS a predator. They can trot out a cavalry of so called “experts” and NEVER change my opinion. Josh should be in jail, period! Victims rights are still in the dark ages. And these girls are brain washed to the highest degree. It sickens me.
I believe people can change. I also believe it takes too much work and self-awareness, as well as recognizing where one’s thoughts have gone wrong (here, the entire “Quiverfull” movement) and Josh Duggar will never do it.
I’m sorry, but while I feel terrible for the victims, all this dismissive coverage about the molestation is a big fat FU to other victims. Basically, some news media and supporters are downplaying this like it was small indiscretion that’s forgiveable and that just praying about it wipes ALL SINS AWAY. Are children suffering through this getting the idea it’s not that big a deal? This whole thing sickens me.
A comment on another site claims this has set back child molestation education by 50 years.
So many horrible aspects to this but you hit the nail on the head. Fox News and the Duggars are putting out the message that child molestation is no big deal. That is dangerous and irresponsible and Fox should be so so ashamed of themselves but I know they have no shame.
An academic says he is cured? They are not curable. What “academic” said this? Dr.No? Dr.Who? Ridiculous and pathetic. Girls, you are brainwashed victims, and you have all my sympathy and prayers. The rest of this shitshow and its “cast” needs to be consigned to hell.
They seem to skirt over a lot. Praising their parents for putting safeguards in place. Uh, he molested other siblings more times after that. Over a year later they go out and they left their five-year-old in their son’s care and he molested her by getting her on his lap for storybook reading. Praise the parents?
As far as ‘victimization’ goes, there is one Catch-22 situation that almost every victim of rape faces in court when they press charges: if the prosecutor thinks that ‘degree’ and ‘extenuating circumstances’ and various other factors will affect ruling or sentencing, they will most likely bring them to light or emphasize them.
So, sometimes, in order to appropriately ‘villainize’ the perp, the ‘victim’ can be (and/or must honestly be) portrayed as weaker, more defenseless, more stunned, more traumatized, etc. than they wish to be – or to be seen as. It’s a second real victimization they go through – just when they are trying to feel better and stronger and like they are facing what happened the best way possible and are determined NOT to be a victim again.
I think a little of this ^ is also a factor – as a few others have noted – in this case, in that I believe *all* the Duggars have problems with using the true definitions of terms, acknowledging the facts they represent, acknowledging the extent of villainy (and resultant) victimization that existed and exists.
great idea on the locked doors, but doesn’t that just invite same sex molestation?
Especially with a family as obsessed with sex as this one?
In a way, the locked bedrooms are like wearing long, conservative clothes (worn not to tempt the out of control men). You are not adressing the problem, just keeping it at bay for a while, like a time bomb.
Not abusing the ones at home is not protecting the rest, Josh then moved his “actions” to the couch or the laundry room.
It is an idiotic move, just delaying the problem, going that when they married him off and had a steady woman to focus on, the problem would go away. HE also desperately needed therapy and getting out of that house where his victims lived.
Not to critizise your comment, but putting girls in more voluminous, “modest” clothing neither stops or temporarily hinders abuse. It’s men’s attitudes to sex and women which cause abuse, AND THAT ALONE. There are countries with very oldfashioned, paternalistic cultures, where women wear expansive clothing, and sometimes veils, to not be tempting. These places also have absolutely rampant rape statistics, often about one in three women, and so much violence. Emancipation is good for a lot of things, the Duggar women should try some.
That’s what I meant, not a native speaker here. I loathe blaming the women for their clothes choices or attitudes as “provoking” the poor unwitting men.
I do agree that certain clothes and attitude can cause trouble or give the wrong impression/message, like dressing too sexy for work.
I am a woman who lives in a very hot part of the country and I sometimes find difficult to find the correct balance not for myself, but in regards of others, not to criticize even, like coworkers (I work at a school) that I think they dress too sexy for teaching teens), or my own teen students who try to wear very revealing clothes and stripper shoes when they are allowed for some school dance… I think it is inappropriate, but some cultures or religion are just ridiculous.
I’d compare these cultists to extreme muslims, who also put the blame on the females for any sexual misconduct.
I do think that they are tried to stop whatever triggered their out of control son, but you are right, the girls do not have to be put ina safe of covering clothing and locks, but Josh actually had to be locked away at some treatment center.
Although everyone is disgusted by his actions as they were very wrong, I think people have gone overboard by labeling him a complete sexual deviant. His actions were as a pubescent teenager, teenagers do not always have the best judgement and not all teens mature at equal ages. This type of situation is not as uncommon as some may think. It occurs in a lot of families, none religious households too. Further even if this would have been criminally investigated (in a timely manner) I doubt it would have been picked up by the D.A. Not to minimize his incorrect behaviors but the juvenile criminal system is flooded with dangerous teenage sexual predators. What Josh did was wrong, but I dont see it rising to the level of judicial intervention. I don’t think his parents were permissive of his actions. The fact that Josh admitted his actions to his parents is admirable. Do you have any idea how many parents find out their teenagers have molested their younger siblings to the extent of oral copulation and penetration and had no idea? As a parent I can not imagine this situation but countless face it every day. It is in these extreme cases that teens are removed from homes and placed in detention centers. Then again some are not and parents then have the responsibility of placing protective measures in their home. They could not have kicked Josh out of their home as he was a minor at that the time. Doing so would have found them in neglect of their child. Hence a CPS case opened against the parents for Josh. Having safe guards such as locked doors and rules of boys not entering the girls room and vice versa is acceptable. Which it appears they did until his behavior escalated and he was sent to live elsewhere. Again even with his touching under the clothes he likely would still not have been charged criminally. Yes he would have been sent to appropriate therapy as would his siblings, but would have not been removed from the home just safe guards such as locks and additonal supervision put in place.
Lady, I don’t even know where to start. He molested a five year old child. This is NOT NORMAL PUBESCENT BEHAVIOR AND WOULD RISE TO THE LEVEL OF JUDICAL INTERVENTION
If what he did was not wrong, then why is there a law stating that is wrong? He’s out of jail only because his parents covered up his crimes until he could no longer be prosecuted. The fact that they did so confirms that even they knew that what we did was illegal. Over clothes, under clothes – it does not matter; if he touched their sexual organs, he committed a crime. Your saying you don’t think it is does not change the fact of the law. Your opinion does not face the law; the FACTS face the law.
And it’s illegal because it’s wrong/immoral/violence that is of a sexual nature.
Sexual curiosity does not mean you molest your sisters. Sexual curiosity means you look at online porn or your father’s Playboy (I date myself) and try to fool around at any possible opportunity with consenting people your own age.
Most commenters on this board understand that sexual curiosity is normal, that sexual abuse is harmful and more common than society wants to believe, and that just because it’s “common” does not make it right. A lot of the discussion centers on how the inbred, warped nature of the Duggars’ domestic and religious environment is a breeding ground for child abuse of all kinds.
Again, this comment could be addressed line by line, but let’s just conclude by saying that the parents protected their criminal son and both neglected and then recklessly endangered their innocent daughters.
I hope the girls get the day in court that they don’t yet understand they deserve and that TLC/Discovery Communications get the day in court that we all understand it deserves.
You did a good job in explaining to Briana why you cannot defend a molester.
I’d like to emphasise the importance of calling spade a spade: what Josh Duggar did wasn’t just kinda “incorrect” (like jaywalking), he sexually molested someone. This is confirmed and clear. Yes, many experiment as kids, but if there’s no consent, it’s molestation/rape.
I get SO ANGRY when people say “mistake” or ‘bad judgement” in relation to this story. Child molestation is a CRIME.
This was a pattern of molestations over the course of a year. He confessed and then there were further incidences that the parents became aware of. So after admitting this pattern of abuse, he continued, he molested a 5 YEAR OLD and was, in fact, sent away by his parents, so maybe you think CPS services should be called since he was sent away?
I can’t diagnose him, as I’m not qualified to, on whether he has persistent sexual deviance or whether he is a pedophile. But he was A CHILD MOLESTER. Not once, but over a LONG SPAN OF TIME. Locking doors does not stop compulsions. The girls were safest when he was not in the home. Where is the discussion about long term actual therapy, and not a work camp, construction project or religious intervention? The religious element didn’t stop him in the first place, why would it stop him after the fact?
I think it’s insane that you are splitting hairs over specific acts rather than acknowledging that this was an ongoing problem, and not a one-off, in curiosity like, “Hey, what do their parts look like?”. On top of this, the parents, along with Josh have designated themselves as experts on who commits child abuse, BUT NEVER did they get out the word that a sibling could be the actual predator.
How do you know that he’s not a sexual deviant now? Because they said so?
Excellent post.
The American Psychiatric Association and the World Health Organization define pedophilia as a persistent sexual interest in prepubescent children, manifested in urges, arousal and behavior.
This is not the kid with the Playboy under his mattress. Look at the history of comic books, girly mags, video games, Victoria’s Secret catalogs … The average, horny teenaged (hetero) boy is attracted to well-developed – exaggeratedly so – female forms.
Not the sleeping form of his five year old sister.
THAT’S DIFFERENT PEOPLE.
It amazes me how anyone could think his behavior is normal.
I worked for a year at a lock-down psychiatric facility for children who were sexual predators. All of our patients were 17 and younger. So, I do have a background with people like Josh. And in no way can his behavior be excused as sexual curiosity, it was criminal. The FIVE year old molestation victim is proof of his deviance. In FL, he would have been prosecuted.
There’s a better-than-good chance he would have been prosecuted in Virginia, as well (we also have civil commitment laws up here, too, where sex offenders can be held indefinitely). I dealt with more Josh Duggars in my 20+ years in law enforcement and practice than I care to ever think about.
Briana,
A sexually mature teenaged male (a boy who, physically speaking, has entered puberty and is capable of sexual activity), who is attracted to and aroused by a child, is the very definition of a sexual deviant.
As someone with children yourself, please PLEASE understand this. Anyone who is sexually aroused by the SLEEPING form of a five year old girl, to the point of physically molesting the child, is not exhibiting normally-developing sexual behavior.
This is, in fact, a [**hallmark**] symptom of abnormal, pathological pedophilia.
There is a very well-established statistical blueprint for this deviation in sexual development. It is a fact that adolescents and young adults who are sexually attracted to children grow up to be adults who are sexually attracted to children – WHETHER THEY ACT ON IT, OR NOT (they usually do).
Like serial killers who spend their childhoods “practicing” on animals, nearly every single child sex predator caught, questioned, imprisoned, studied and psychoanalyzed got their start victimizing younger family members and neighbors. On top of all the well-known statistics and research anyone can access, I’ve got twenty-plus years in law enforcement and the courts system that absolutely supports that. I’ve seen it. I’ve chased it. I’ve prosecuted it.
Victimizing a sleeping child is a HUGE red flag in this case, because it serves two functions for the predator: secrecy and deniability. A confused, sleepy, “maybe you were just dreaming” child is much less likely to be believed.
But, you may be thinking, Josh Duggar confessed to his parents. The kid ‘fessed up! He must know he did wrong and want to change.
If that confession happened (and anyone even halfway paying attention would seriously question the truthfulness of the parents’ statements), it’s completely irrelevant. Being a child sex predator and feeling ashamed that it’s wrong are not mutually exclusive. It’s not all that difficult to get a pedophile to admit to what they’ve done – and they nearly always “feel bad” about it.
But that doesn’t mean they won’t do it again. And again. And AGAIN. Because the vast body of study on the subject says they will and they DO.
Josh Duggar has admitted to being sexually attracted to small children, and wants us to now believe that he isn’t anymore. All evidence and expertise on the subject practically dictates that this can’t be true – one does not “grow out of” or “pray away” pedophilia.
This was not a case of “playing house,” or “playing doctor.” It’s not peer-to-peer and it’s NOT normal curiosity. There’s a very clearly defined perpetrator, and very clearly defined victims. It really couldn’t be any simpler, pathology-wise.
I prosecuted quite a few “big brother” pedophiles-in-training. Please let me assure you, parents “kick out” their sex offender sons every day even when it means they must continue to support them as wards of the state. Some parents actually do have their priorities straight – protecting the VICTIMS from the PREDATORS, and not the other way around, as the Duggars have done and continue to do.
The authorities involved in this case – had they not been pedophiles themselves, had they been trusted to actually investigate and intervene as the law saw fit, had they not actively been undermined, stonewalled and lied-to by the parents – ABSOLUTELY would have removed someone from the home if that was warranted. But even if it wasn’t warranted, there would have been official follow-up. There would have been some accountability. Someone would have maybe given a shit and at least TRIED to make sure those girls were okay.
Locked doors and sex segregation are NOT acceptable reactions to a multiple-offending, and clearly escalating, sex abuser operating in your home. That is, at best, a tool to use in conjunction with other things you’re proactively doing as a parent – other than just waiting for your molester son, since he’s such an honest and swell guy, to come to you and confess. AGAIN.
A tool among many, not a solution in and of itself. If a sternly-worded “don’t do that again” and a lock on the door were sufficient, far fewer people would be victims. Move a child molester in down the hall from your kids. Is a locked door really going to do it for you?
We see it over and over again that cults and child sex predators go hand-in-hand, for many reasons, but mostly because of secrecy and the indoctrination of religious shame. These children – Josh himself included – have/had no safety net: no teachers, no spontaneous play with neighbors or classmates, no time at all away from their obligations to their family. Females were put on the planet to temptresses, luring man to his downfall, and males were put here to fight succumbing to all that female temptation.
A cynical person might be TEMPTED to assume that the Duggar parents, knowing what they knew, were deliberately isolating their children all along.
I’m not sure which is more nauseating – that these parents were and are more than willing to sacrifice their daughters for their sons, that they then had the breathtaking nerve to dish up their “wholesome” family as something to emulate, or the people who apologize, rationalize and excuse this whole disgusting mess they’ve created.
@AH-
Your post needs plastered everywhere on the internet! Please post it on FB, Twitter and everywhere else you can. This is SO true. People need to GET THIS. You have the authority that will wake some people up and make them listen. Bless you!
Excellent post. Thank you for your own work to protect victims.
Very good points, all of them, but I have yet to see anyone make the point that most molesters were in fact at one time molested themselves. Rarely does this sort of behavior manifest out of nowhere. More often than not it is a learned behavior. This begs the question, where did Josh learn this behavior? I don’t have any problem pointing the finger at the father. The fact that Jim Bob repeatedly covered up, and to this day make excuses for his own son’s deviancy speaks volumes to me.
Very well written thought provoking post @AH
Thank you
@AH, hands down best comment I’ve seen anywhere on this travesty, well done.
Also a big +1 to Kiyoshigirl’s comments, my thoughts as well.
+1, to what everyone else said. We got schooled.
@brianaAre you kidding me… Your comments make me so angry I can not even comment. My brother would never ever touch me sexually. He would never go into my safe bedroom and touch me sexually. Your home is supposed to be safe place. You should not have to lock any doors. I have a boy and a girl and they understand keeping each other safe. This whole story is so sick and upsetting…. He is the dangerous criminal. He took away something from his sisters they can never get back. He was suppose to protect his family. This is truly disturbing.
@ah thank you
You know, I have faith in Jessa. Isn’t she the one who is mildly rebellious by going off message occasionally?
Here she is going off message in a very subtle way. She’s saying everything she was told to say, like Jill, but she’s making sure we know he was ‘sly’ and ‘sneaky’ and how opportunistic he was in the way he coped a feel if he thought he could get away with it.
That last part implies it wasn’t just the 5 incidents per the script.
Is that her intention? Is there an original thought breaking through? I really hope so.
You don’t call someone ‘sly’ and ‘sneaky’ and opportunistic on national television if you genuinely think it was a mistake best swept under the umbrella of ‘bad touching’ and or ‘curiosity’.
And this is coming from someone who has finally had sex (Yes!) and can process what happened or even compare the experiences.
Good luck getting your public life back Josh when your forgiving victim calls you sly, sneaky and selfishly opportunistic on national television!!
I hope people are paying attention.
I’d be willing to bet Mommy and Daddy had contractual final say in what aired or not, so it really might just be wishful thinking on your part.
We can hope, though …
Really? Think Jessa is very much into the lifestyle & the most political of the bunch. Think she is a louder outspoken version of her mom. Think will end up being the spokesperson for their lifestyle after the parents fade into the background.
LAK – I thought the same thing about Jessa. She didn’t use the required sound bite “made a bad choice” at all but the others said it several times. I doubt it was b/c Jessa forgot the phrase b/c their talking points were undoubtedly written on cue cards. Early in the first parent interview the mom was clearly referring to cue cards just to the side of the camera.
In touch didn’t name them but everyone knew. It was 4 of the 5 sisters. Look at what everyone is assuming about jana! Oh she may have been so damaged to still not be married. … what if she is the one that he didn’t touch and that had nothing to do about it. Poor girl. Everyone has an opinion about this, but I do wish the specifics had been kept private, if nor the whole thing. I would be mortified for everyone to know something like this had happened to me, and have everyone talking about it like this. They didn’t bravely come forward like many celebrities, they were dragged into the spotlight and attacked.
I wish this show would go away at once.
Their parents set them up. One wonders where the anger is and what’s going to happen to it. Remember the Melendez brothers?
When victims of abuse (physical, emotional, sexual) come forward, they are often glad to get the truth out in the open — but they want to do it on their own terms.
It’s not a problem if the girls get validation that something was wrong, because of course they always knew it was wrong; it is a problem that they are not in control of the process.
And for that blame not the media, but their parents, who robbed them of control over their lives the minute they heard about the abuse and decided to alternately pretend it never happened and blame the girls.
Does anyone else find it very odd- or very telling- that Jess keeps referring to “the girls” when talking about what happened to HER?
Maybe it is a defense mechanism? A way to distance herself from what happened to her?
I’m sure she was coached to speak this way. She’s not supposed to refer to what happened to her because her feelings aren’t important; only Josh’s and her parents’ feelings matter. Referrng to “the girls” is also distancing: Does she ever even use the term “sisters”?
Yes agree it sounds like she’s detaching or dissociating in a way… an instinctive way of coping with trauma. Helped her get through it, helping her get through it now, won’t be healthy in the long run. The Duggars have created a kind of emotional Zombie Apocalypse for their daughters. What sick people – how can it be that any television executive thinks this is right? Why don’t we just move on to Hunger Games for real and throw in live broadcast rape?
I am just worried it’s not an instinctive way of coping with the trauma, but how she has been taught/told to view it- especially given the context of the Duggar’s Josh-focused statements to date. “The girls” come across as side characters in the story of Josh- and it is sad if they have internalized that narrative as well.
Put me down for “telling.”
Tip of the iceberg, people …
“Josh was “sly” and “subtle”. Jessa said: “He knew in his mind, ‘My actions are wrong and I have bad intentions,’ but he was very sly. Like the girls didn’t catch on. It was like, okay, if you catch the girl sleeping a quick feel or whatever…It was very subtle.”
Well that just got 6 bajillion times worse.
My thoughts exactly.
People are missing these words from Jessa. Jessa is off message even though she looks like she is. She’s not calling it ‘a mistake’ or whatever words Josh and his parents told her to use. She’s telling us that more than 5 times something happened. She’s saying what Josh did wasn’t a mistake.
She’s supposed to be sticking to the script, like Jill is doing. Perhaps offer up some tears, instead this is what she is saying…..
I wish people would pay attention to what she’s saying here.
Mentioned this exchange upthread earlier, but here is the pastor (from Texas) and Ablow having it out last night —
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/bizarre-controlling-manipulative-foxs-ablow-pastor-battle-over-duggars/
Ablow raises a good point about not only protecting the victims, but whether the parents protected the broader community. And he’s not afraid to use the “p” word to describe Josh.
Let me correct myself. Yes, it could be criminal but the D.A. is not likely to pick it up. It is not uncommon to learn of sibling cases that include oral copulation of older teenage boys with 4-5 year olds not to be filed by the D.A.
I’m sorry but my brain doesn’t seem to be able to compute the sheer amount of BS it just read…
I hope this is BS because if we live in a world where molesting any child, let alone a 5 year old comes with no consequences then I give up on life. Throwing in the towel….
Oh well, it must be ok then. Let’s all go home!
I don’t know what state you live in or where you got you law degree, but here in Florida, your statement is not true. At all.
Or in Virginia. The Commonwealth’s Attorney, knowing the facts of this case, would have been all over it. At the very least, Josh would undergo state-mandated probationary support care, and the victims would receive separate psychological and follow-up care of their own.
That’s assuming decent, loving parents with appropriate priorities, cooperated to provide the facts of the case to the authorities in a good-faith effort to help ALL of their children.
i.e., NOT the Duggars.
What I would like to know is if the sisters allow their brother to babysit his nieces over night! I bet they don’t …
Oh yes, and this Duggar molestation case is one of the best pro arguements for comprehensive sex education at every school for ALL children!
I have been wondering how far the forgiveness went, as well.
Our area has a series of school programs starting at a very young age to teach children what is appropriate touch and what is not (using age appropriate tools such as stuffed animals). And what to do if you experience such a violation.
Of course, that would be public school.
The unasked question is – what the hell happened to Josh Duggar when he was kid – a teenager doesn’t display warped behaviour like this unless something happened to him. My money is on someone from the church abused him when he was younger.
Not necessarily. He had sexual urges, like nearly all teens – but practically none of the usual outlets. No dating, no porn, very little privacy. Perhaps he had normal urges which were turned inward and warped until they turned ugly. If so, his awful parents and that cult should be blamed.
that’s a good point – very similar to what happened due to sexual repression of priests – perhaps why the narrative they are building around this is so troubling – one because as parents they learnt nothing from this. not like wow – what are we teaching our kids that this becomes an outlet. . . perhaps show to an even greater extent how much of a cult they are in. two – because they are not addresing the fact that what he did was very wrong and they worked hard to make him understand that , got counselling for their girls as well to make sure they were ok – and then discussed this openly since they had such a public forum – instead they spread their ill message of sexual repression and victim blaming. They have reaped what they sowed.
It would also explain why the Duggars know so many people this has happened to…
Physical and sexual abuse inside these closed-system religious cults is unbelievably common. Sexual desire and arousal equals shame, and religion uses shame to very effectively control.
It’s telling that they seem to think the parents’ solution of gender segregation and locked doors is normal, or even appropriate considering what had already happened.
There’s a place where gender segregation and locked doors are routinely utilized to keep order.
It’s called PRISON.
Unfortunately, more often than not that is the case. Their failure to get Josh adequate counseling may have prevented them from ever knowing where the behavior was learnt. On the other hand, perhaps that’s exactly why the parents didn’t want him to get proper counseling. I’m very close with a member of a large family that suffered from a similar experience. It took years of quality counseling for it to finally come out that there was molestation occurring in the father’s childhood and as far back as the grandfather’s family. Sadly, like any form of abuse, sexual abuse can be carried down through generations. That’s why psychological counseling is also crucial. It provides a safe environment within which the “secrecy” of the act can be brought out into the open. If any good will come from this it is the fact that it IS out in the open. Full transparency is the first step toward healing. They can avoid dealing with it but the Duggar parents cannot stop this momentum. The women/girls who were abused are now free to explore their emotions openly and Josh’s gig is up. He’s been outted. He will not be asked to coach Little League teams, or chaperon over night camping trips in his church. Other parishioners might be giving lip service about “forgiveness” but they are not about to practice “forgetfulness”.
Why is Fox determined to whitewash Josh Duggar’s action? I don’t understand why a network feels that they have a stake in protecting this predator.
My question is, if they took religion and political stance out of it, would they still be defending him? Or would they have reached out to the parents for a softball interview? Did they clamor to interview Honey Boo Boo’s mother or cry out against the show’s cancelation?
It’s that whole “war on Christianity” thing they seem compelled to flog to death.
Ratings = money = that’s the bottom line.
If they were going to keep someone locked in, it should’ve been the brother. But keeping the victims locked in, that’s putting the blame on the victim. Not that any child should be locked up, because that’s dangerous. My heart breaks for these girls. They are so damaged and they are taught it’s their fault. Josh is an effing coward.
ANY so called Christians with a high profile in the media should warrant the side eye because God calls on Christians to be humble. The spiritual journey is all about making yourself less in the eyes of society. The rampant egoism required to have a high profile in the media is the anthisis of what the spiritual journey is all about. So the revelations about this family of false prophets are hardly surprising.
Interesting text:
“Under the Gothard ILBP Christian sexual counseling program, the impetus is always on the victims’ responsibility such as young girls coming out of a bath without being fully covered, “running around in a dress,” or an infant girl having their diaper changed in the presence of a male. In fact, in ILBP literature victims are reminded that since their soul holds more value than their bodies, after being abused their only priority and regard is forgiving the offender to ‘magically’ brush aside any physical or psychological suffering. The Duggar parents claimed all of Josh’s victims received adequate counseling, but since it is founded in Gothard’s Christian program, they were blamed and shamed, not healed and certainly not forgiven; they are female after all.”
There is more: http://www.politicususa.com/2015/05/26/hobby-lobby-funds-christian-counseling-homeschool-program-embraced-duggars.html
Holy shit.
O_O
And I think I mean that literally.
What that article leaves out is the part where their ‘how to deal with molestation’ manual – yes they have an actual manual, is the section where the victim has to forgive their molester or they damn their souls. There is also a section where the victim is told to be grateful for the molestation because it highlights their stumble from the right path and the molestation therefore presents an opportunity to become closer to god.
How I hate the phrase ‘coming closer to god’. Every single one of these people has used it in their statements.
So sick.
Very sick and very very cult-y.
I seriously hope these women are married to decent guys and they can break with their family. Sick, sick, sick. I can’t even put them down for their beliefs; they’ve been indoctrinated. My soul aches for them.
Those “decent” guys were raised in the same hyper-religious, women-hating cult that Josh Duggar was.
The guy molested a 5 year old. There is not justification for that. No one sexually curious molests a 5 year old. Why is this so hard to grasp?
Meh. Josh Duggar is a pedophile. All the justifications in the world won’t explain it away. He should be a registered sex offender.
I weep for all his victims, for his sisters who don’t know any better. They are victimised again by their parents, by their family, by Fox, by their ‘supporters’.
Considering how much the parents downplayed what happened, what are the chances they told these girls the unvarnished truth?
It seems they normalised what happened – see JB’s comments about his talks with other families.
The grown women think it’s normal to keep locks on their children’s bedroom doors!!!! That was the take away from how their parents handled the situation.
Does anyone know if someone like Josh CAN be cured? My initial reaction is “only by a bullet” but I really would like to know- is he just a predator for life, or how does that work? Can someone like that really be rehabilitated?
There are only a handful of reliable studies on the subject, which isn’t all that surprising, considering people don’t generally tend to want to let these people hang around and reoffend so they can study what works and what doesn’t.
CAN child sex offenders be cured? No one really knows. Does it happen? Not often enough to indicate that this therapy works better than that therapy, etc. The recidivism rate for sex offenders is pretty reliably high straight across the board, which has spurred states to institute registries to (try to) keep track of them, as well as civil commitment laws to help keep high-risk offenders away from their victims upon release from prison.
A couple of European studies have suggested that adolescent offenders (like Josh Duggar was) may be the ONLY age group to benefit long-term from one very specific type of therapy – “multi systemic” therapy, which enlists the offender’s family and community to support at-risk young teens and help curb the urge to reoffend. than any other age group. This is interesting, since a lot of evidence does suggest that, quite often, therapy can actually make offenders worse.
A University of Missouri psychology professor followed adolescent child sex offenders receiving MST and about 20 years later, noted double-digit percentage decreases in both arrest rates in general (felony, misdemeanor, violent or non-), as well as sexual reoffense.
This has become the European model for “curing” adolescent sex offenders, and more than half the states here offer it – but only something like 1% of adolescent offenders in the system participate. Which isn’t surprising. Look at the Duggars – it turns out to be very difficult to enlist the aid of family and community on behalf of the children involved when the priority for the parents is to actively cover up abuse.
My experience as a criminal prosecutor tells me that Josh Duggar is a predator for life (it also tells me that he is quite likely the victim of sexual abuse himself). If there’s an “ideal” family environment for a pedophile to flourish, the Duggars’ cloyingly religious home life – which systematically indoctrinates little girls that they are sinful temptresses whose body parts are shameful, and little boys that they are helpless in this world to control their sexual urges and so the females around them must accommodate and excuse them at all times – would be it.
Duggar didn’t just continue to abuse his sisters, he also apparently escalated. Something changed, which might explain how his parents went from thinking they had the situation under control to removing him from the home (however uselessly). My understanding of the timeline of abuse is that he went from “outside clothing” to “inside,” and “older to younger.” Add in the sleeping thing, and it’s textbook pedophilia.
The parents are undoubtedly struggling with the irony of how this has all played out. Had they decided to protect the victims from the predator – instead of the other way around – Josh Duggar wouldn’t have just entered the system as a juvenile (with records that really ARE sealed by a judge, because no matter how vocally they insist this report was sealed, it simply wasn’t – not EVER), but he also would have gotten help at the exact time in his life when he could have benefited from it the most.
What AH said. But I would like to clarify some points.
AH mentions the recidivism rate being high. (Recidivism rate is the rate at which they’re charged again for another crime.) The recidivism rate for a child molester being charged with another sexual offense is around 5-15%. (That includes sex crimes against adults as well as against children – most child molesters aren’t actually paedophiles. They’re general predators who just pick victims that are convenient … they’ll target adults too.) That IS fairly high, but a lot of people seem to have misinterpreted that to “they all keep offending, forever”. It is important to note that about 90% of them are never charged with sexual offenses again.
So something stops them. Whether that something is therapy, fear of going back to jail, or the fact they’re watched fairly closely is quite hard to pull apart. One consistent finding is that those who complete therapy in jail are much less likely to re-offend. But therapy isn’t compulsory, so those who do complete therapy are usually those who WANT to change. So they’re the ones less likely to re-offend in the first place.
Also, different types of therapy would be appropriate for different types of offenders. Paedophilia seems to be fixed (like being gay or straight, if you’re attracted to kids then that’s what you are attracted to), so therapy would be about resisting the urge to act on the attraction, how to happily live a celibate lifestyle. Therapy for a juvenile who was abused themselves and is acting out reactively would be about teaching acceptable behaviour. Therapy for an opportunistic general predator might focus on anger-management and avoiding triggers like drugs/alcohol.
Recidivism rates have nothing to do with reoffending, IMO. It just means that a lot of paedophiles learned not to get caught.
I know I’m super late to this post, but one of my friends shared this blog on Facebook and I found it to be extremely helpful in explaining legally, what Josh did through the eyes of the Duggars and their church thing they follow— the Gothard movement. The blogger is an ex-fundie lawyer and extremely knowledgeable.
http://fiddlrts.blogspot.de/2015/05/the-duggars-how-fundamentalisms.html?m=1
This was a fascinating and informative read on being raised in this type of oppressive group, as the author was, and also how it might have affected Josh and especially the part where he exposed that the Duggars are making millions on TV using sexuality, the virginal girls, modesty, on and on, and no strife in the family, all of these teachings of Gothard (a sexual pervert) to in effect sell their religion to us.
Thank you for linking it. I even read a lot of the posts to it because the author responded to almost every poster. I liked what he said in response to a poster who said Christians shouldn’t be throwing stones at other Christians and judging.
“Finally, let me address the issue of “throwing stones.” We are called on as Christians to call out bad doctrine. Saint Paul even called out Saint Peter in public for teaching false doctrine. The Duggars have intentionally put themselves in the spotlight, teaching their bad doctrine on national television. Not only are we permitted to publicly refute it, I believe we are called to do so. This was no private matter. This was teaching that their approach – and Gothard’s approach was from God. I am publicly disputing that assertion.”
Thank you for linking that. I agree with everything he said, particularly:
“We have a tendency as a society and as a religion to dismiss bad actions as being done by ‘bad people.’ That way, we can just say that somebody evil did something evil, and never look at the underlying structural and philosophical issues.”
Does anyone think this pedophile, Josh Duggar, confessed? I think he got caught. Confession is the righteous Duggars’ spin, IMO.
I sooooo agree. I don’t think he confessed. That’s their spin and given how they’ve covered it up, I think it’s a perfectly acceptable conclusion.
The scary thing about this is that impressionable teenage boys who will be watching the media circus and may have had those kind of thoughts may now act on them as they will be thinking ‘Well if Josh Duggar’s parents let him away with it and his sisters said it was no big deal then i can do it too’. The fact that Fox News seem to be backing them up with this ‘narrative’ only serves to justify to the potential deviant that this behaviour is OK and they won’t get into trouble for it.
Josh and his family needs to be investigated by the CPS – his kids are at risk. Why hasn’t there been any news about that? I guess he got lawyered up.
As for what happened its obvs that he moved from touching onto something more intimate and was caught. AND it was more frequent with more victims than have been mentioned so far. Within the space of a year he went from over the clothes touching with older girls to under the clothes with 5 year olds. Their obsession for pushing the touching narrative is smoke to cover up something more serious – I can’t help but think he attempted intercourse with one, at the very least ‘internal’ violation. Don’t know if he went after the boys as it’s clear his predilection is toward girls and don’t peado’s have a preference?
He’s a sick guy from a sick family.
Considering how they feel about gays, I doubt very much that they’d admit to any ‘bad touching’ of boys.
Ugh, I hated the way she said “a boy” very pointedly, to try to emphasize his innocence. She reminded me a lot of Jim Bob there. They’re so brainwashed, they don’t even see how blatantly contradictory they are. Either he’s a sly manipulator or an innocent little boy. They’re gross.
I’m struggling so much with this entire issue. Before I ever read any of the comments, my thought was ” He was 14, a child himself, kids experiment, no big deal”. After reading all the comments, I see that I am virtually the only person who feels this way. It also makes me recall when I was 5 years old ( I am female) and a 12/13 year old girl routinely made me touch and be touched by her, quite aggressively, with mouth and fingers, until about 9 months later when somehow our parents found out and stepped in. I always rationalized it in my mind as “kids are weird and curious” and wrote it off as such. Now this whole story has come to light and I am reading what everyone is saying and wondering if what happened to me is not so innocent. I am truly thrown and have no idea what to think. I guess I’m just tossing my thoughts out to the internet but if anyone has any ideas or experience which might help I would appreciate it.
I look at children experimenting as mutual and fairly close in age and short-lived. I think where no one feels that this is experimentation is it happened with five different girls. I don’t believe we’ve heard the whole truth. The Duggars are trying to downplay it as a few second touching over the clothes while they were asleep. I don’t believe that. I don’t believe he would ever be completely honest and I think that doesn’t even sound believable. It would have to be a couple of minutes. The fact is he is getting up and going into his sister’s beds while they are asleep to fondle them. How is that experimenting? It isn’t mutual. It’s preying on them. It’s kind of funny that the ones who were awake and can dispute what he says he admits he did it under their clothes, but the ones who can’t dispute it, who were asleep, he says it’s over the clothes. I don’t believe him. If he was so bold to molest two other sisters under the clothes while they were awake against their will, and he has to admit to that because they were awake, then it begs the question that it was highly unlikely that he didn’t fondle the other two in bed under their clothes.
Also the fact that he got into trouble, the family knew and yet it happened two more times over the course of 16 months, that he was unable to control himself, and that the last incident was a five-year-old when he was fifteen and it was him putting his hand down her pants cannot be termed “experimenting.” Plus the babysitter, fondling her boobs he said. We have no idea what he fondled because she was also asleep, and so he can fudge the truth on that one also.
I blame the parents for obviously still leaving him alone with girls after the first incidents and that they didn’t get him real counseling. And it’s that it was five girls that also make this concerning.
I would consider you to have been molested since it went on for a long time, over nine months, and that you were so young and she was much older, thus in a position of power. At five you are just a baby in my eyes compared to a girl hitting her teens. It doesn’t mean you have to be scarred for life or anything, but I would not consider that experimentation, like kids doing something once or twice with each other.
While technically both of you were children (minors), there is a huge difference between a five year-old (barely a kindergartner) and a 13-14 year old (entering high school age). This is why I cannot give Josh a pass for ANY of his victims, and particularly a 5 year old. Whether he was 12 or 17 — it’s not just experimenting or something that should be passed off as normal.
What you describe does not sound appropriate and beyond the bounds of just curiosity (that just is my personal opinion). I am glad your parents intervened.
I just skimmed the comments so sorry if someone brought this up already, but…Everyone I know is saying “They should have handled this privately as a family.” Uhhh what???? I studied psychology so I’m not just pulling this out of my butt: Two kind of people molest children. APD (psycho/sociopaths) and pedophiles. No one else. Both have high risk of repeating. Child molesters need to be publicly outed so that the public can protect their children from this scum.