‘Games of Thrones’ showrunner explains Stannis’s big decision (major spoilers)

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MAJOR SPOILERS

Many of us are still reeling from Sunday night’s episode of Game of Thrones, “The Dance of Dragons.” What’s weird is that I have a pretty high tolerance for contextualized violence, as in, I tap out when on-screen carnage has no purpose, but if it’s within an interesting story, I’m cool with it. But even I thought that Stannis “sacrificing” his only daughter (Princess Shireen) to the Lord of Light just to get some military edge was… difficult to take. Like with every controversial choice, the Game of Thrones showrunners, DB Weiss and David Benioff, are getting a lot of heat. This time, they’ve sort of deflected and basically told everyone that George RR Martin said it was going to happen in the sixth book anyway. Entertainment Weekly sat down with Weiss to discuss it – some highlights:

Why Shireen’s sacrifice made sense in the narrative: “Horrible things happening to people in this show, and this is one that we thought was entirely [narratively] justified. It was set-up by the predicament that Stannis was in. It will be awful to see, but it’s supposed to be awful.”

Why Shireen and not someone else? “It’s like a two-tiered system. If a superhero knocks over a building and there are 5,000 people in the building that we can presume are now dead, does it matter? Because they’re not people we know. But if one dog we like gets run over by a car, it’s the worst thing we’ve we’ve ever seen. I totally understand where that visceral reaction comes from. I have that same reaction. There’s also something sh-tty about that. So instead of saying, ‘How could you do this to somebody you know and care about?’ maybe when it’s happening to somebody we don’t know so well, maybe then it should hit us all a bit harder.”

Weiss on the world of Stannis and Melisandre: “People who watch Game of Thrones don’t see the same world as Stannis and Melisandre. To those characters, magic is real and it works. That’s something fun about this genre because when magic is real and you can see it with your own eyes in the show, it gives you a window into the heads of people who believe irrational things on faith. I can’t really get my head around how those people operate in our world, as they’re so completely disconnected from the way I process the world. So in a strange way, fantasy is a cock-eyed window into the heads of people who would do something terrible for an irrational reason.”

[From EW]

HBO also released a behind-the-scenes video for “The Dance of Dragons” in which David Benioff insinuates that George Martin told them that Stannis killing Shireen was a future plotline in the book and Benioff says, “It was one of those moments where I remember looking at Dan and [thinking] that’s so horrible and so good in a story sense…The very first time we saw Stannis and Melisandre, they were burning people alive on the beaches of Dragonstone and it’s really all come to this. There’s been so much talk of king’s blood, and the power of king’s blood, and it all leads ultimately, fatally, to Shireen’s sacrifice, and it’s one of the most horrible moments we’ve shot … It’s obviously the hardest choice he’s ever made in his life and for Stannis it comes down to ambition versus familial love and for Stannis and for Stannis sadly that choice is ambition.” Here’s the video.

This admission – that Stannis will do the same thing in a future GoT book – has gotten some people upset. They’re accusing Weiss and Benioff of “spoiling” the book and now it’s just some massive flame-war between book-purists and show-watchers and all of that. I don’t know… I love Game of Thrones and I love to obsess about it (it gets me through so much gym time!), but I do think people need to take it down a notch. It’s a TV show and popular book series. Enough.

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Photos courtesy of HBO/Game of Thrones.

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113 Responses to “‘Games of Thrones’ showrunner explains Stannis’s big decision (major spoilers)”

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  1. Nikki says:

    I read “Major spoilers” and am NOT going to peek at this article!! I hope my resolve lasts, but it’s like holding a daiquiri out to an alcoholic. Darn you, Kaiser!!

  2. Lilacflowers says:

    HODOR!

  3. Lauren says:

    For me it was a combo of that scene and Meryn Trant w the child in the brothel. Tyrion said as much in that episode about violence- we get enough of it in real life (especially lately w Josh Duggar) I don’t need it in my leisure time.

    • Lilacflowers says:

      The whole Meryn Trent scene, I was thinking of Josh Duggar. Of course, when the book was written and the scene filmed, nobody knew the Duggar mess would be unfolding when the scene aired.

      • Jen43 says:

        I am really nervous about next week. Arya better not get harmed in any way.

      • Lilacflowers says:

        BOOK SPOILER: Trent doesn’t harm her but she does get punished by the Many Faced God, but only temporarily.

      • Bridget says:

        I don’t remember that part in the book at all. Perhaps I should re-read it.

        The more I think about it, the more I think Arya is supposed to come back and balance the scales against Walder Frey. Just me?

      • Lindy79 says:

        *sings* You don’t mess around with Walder Frey!

      • Linn says:

        Thank you very much, Lindy. Now I’ll have that song stuck in my head for the rest of the week.

  4. Abbott says:

    I mean, we all knew the show was going to catch up with the books and D&D were going to forge ahead. If book readers didn’t want spoilers, why watch the show?

    (No offense to our book readers here; I love you all more than most of my family members)

    • LadyMTL says:

      I’m a book reader and I agree with you; why watch a show if you know that it’s going to get ahead of the books / spoil things and that that might p*ss you off?

      I watch GoT every week and if something ends up spoiled, oh well. It doesn’t mean that I’m not going to read the next novel, because I’m sure that GRRM has lots planned out that isn’t / won’t be in the show.

    • Rachel says:

      I agree with LadyM. I’m currently on book 4. I’ve read many series where I’ve seen the show first and read the books second. I’ve also done the opposite. Neither make the other any less enjoyable for me. Quite frankly, I don’t care about spoilers. Because if it’s a good book or movie or tv show or whatever, I will enjoy it just as much even when I know what’s going to happen. And honestly, I’m rarely ever surprised anyway. I’ve been a dedicated reader for over 30 years. A writer who can throw in a plot twist I didn’t see coming is as rare as a pink unicorn.

      But for the people who do have a problem with spoilers, I’d say, stop making them defend themselves and the direction they take the show in, and they won’t have to spoil future book plotlines for you.

      • AntiSocialButterfly says:

        I feel the very same way as you do regarding fluidity of books to film/ film to books. After this episode ended, I looked at the hubby and said, ” I have to start this series”!

      • M.A.F. says:

        I’m the same way (watch then read) but the only thing I don’t like is now I only see the actors faces while I’m reading which can be annoying.

    • Bridget says:

      I don’t get the complaints. I’m watching the series specifically because I know it’s overtaking the books and I don’t want to have the ending spoiled on some random internet headline. We’ve known for a long time that the show was going to break new ground… and I’m getting pretty tired of the complaints about the show. It’s dark. It’s a dark story.

    • Carmen says:

      I’ve read all the books so far and watched them decrease in quality while they increased in quantity, until I found the fifth book to be so badly written I don’t even care if Martin never finishes the series. That was three days of my life I’ll never get back, plowing through eleven hundred pages of claptrap.

    • Aha says:

      as a bookreader, I’m thrilled that the show is forging ahead, like water in a desert! I was weary of some of the plot lines in the book, like Tyrion’s lengthy travels post-Tywin L. When is the next book due? Thought it was this year. Very exciting to watch this year!

    • M.A.F. says:

      Especially since the show-runners have been saying it since the beginning. They know enough of where GRRM is going with the books. Next season is going to be interesting.

  5. GlimmerBunny says:

    I don’t doubt that Shireen is gonna die in the books too, but that Stannis is the one who does it/allows it is what doesn’t sit right with me. I think Melisandre will burn her to ressurect a certain character that is stabbed in the last chapter of ADWD. Stannis isn’t even with her in the book, and the last thing he says befor the battle of Winterfell is “If I die, try to seat my daughter on the throne”.

    #bookStannisisstilltheMannis

    • Jen43 says:

      I think the only purpose Melisandre can serve is to resurrect that character who gets stabbed.

      • Nick says:

        Agree about the person stabbed tho in the show I think he will get shot w an arrow.

      • Lilacflowers says:

        Although she isn’t anywhere near that person at the moment and there are other magical forces at work where that person is

      • Abbott says:

        I think Melisandre is going to give him a new heir.

    • Becks says:

      Very interesting glimmerbunny! Completely makes sense. I can definitely see Melissandre trying to resurrect that character….

  6. Ennie says:

    What is the saying? A butterfly flying can spark an earthquake? Poor Davos let Gendry, King Robert’s bastard son escape … If he had known that would cause the demise of Shireen… Poor Davos and poor Girl. Evil Melisandre, but I really want the Boltons out of Winterfell , Stannis should Have burned himself, and maybe that God would have sent win win (wun wun) to stomp on Ramsay and Roose, a woman wishes.

  7. Linn says:

    And once again I disagree with the showrunners.

    1. If a superhero “knocks over a building and there are 5,000 people in the building that we can presume are now dead” I would certainly care and I would probably think that he makes a pretty sh*tty hero.

    2. I don’t think the scene was set up particularly well. Going from “You are the Princess Shireen and you are my daughter” and “get out Melisandre” to “alright let’s do this, and kill the only thing I (supposedly) love” feeled really rushed to me.
    Sure, he was in a tough situation and he has always been very influcenced by Melisandre, but it imho it didn’t feel like a natural thing to happen at this point of the story.

    Actually I have this weird opinion about this whole season that it felt simultaneously rushed and dragged out too long. And I can’t even put my finger on why I feel this way.

    • Josefa says:

      I get the same feeling about that scene. The series has always been raw and this death has been foreshadowed since the last season, but I just didn’t get the feeling Stannis had this only option left. The battle against the Boltons was gonna be tough but cmon, they come around and burn your food and you immediately change your mind about burning your daughter? After being so protective?

      If this had been Selyse and Mel doing it in secret, it would’ve made perfect sense. Selyse could still have her “oh God, what kind of mother am I?!” moment, Mel would stay the psycho she is, Stannis would still make sense as a character, and the scene would’ve still been tough to watch. Maybe this is what GRRM has planned for the books and they didn’t want to make the spoiler so exact? Shireen’s death has been foreshadowed in the books too – but it seems Stannis won’t have anything to do with it.

      • chaser says:

        Are serious? His army are starving and freezing to death. Now with no food and horses they’ve lost all hope. They die either way and this is Stannis’s last shot. Why wouldn’t he do this? He’s been burning people all series to get ahead and have an edge why wouldn’t it stop now when everything is lost?
        Stannis’s character does make sense. He was withdrawn, hating himself and begging his daughter for forgiveness prior.
        I think people have gotten caught up on Stannis being ‘like totally bae’ to actually truly see his character properly.

  8. Jenns says:

    Oh God, that last picture. F**k you, Stannis!

    But seriously, I am ok with Stannis burning his daughter as a plot point. But the showrunners seem to want to take the shock value up a few notches and that’s what is troubling sometimes. Hearing Shireen’s final screams was just awful and really upsetting.

  9. mom2two says:

    First off, I can understand why people are upset that they spoiled a future book plot. It sounded to me like they wanted to justify their plot by dropping that tidbit. Not only did they spoil Shireen’s fate in the books but also Stannis’s fate (Ramsey sends Jon a letter saying Stannis has died, along with Mance and the spearwives and he wants Reek and his bride back).

    In the books, Stannis is stuck outside of Winterfell, the battle has not yet begun when we last leave him. Theon and Ramsey’s bride basically fall in his lap. The winter is bad, I just don’t see how Stannis could get back to the wall and have Shireen burned in the books. I am sure GRRM could come up with a way if that is the direction he’s going. I am going to say that probably Melisandre and Selyse have her burned without Stannis’s knowledge.

    Keep in mind in the books, he tells Justin Massey that should he (Stannis) die, Justin is to keep fighting to put Shireen on the throne. This does not sound like a man who would burn his heir on a whim.

    And the show scene was awful, Shireen tells him she will help him but she had no idea that meant being burned alive. Her screaming for her parents and struggling was just difficult to watch.

    I understand why both book fans are angry about the plot tidbit being dropped and why some show fans are not happy with this story line

    D&D thrive on controversy, seems like every time they have one the ratings go up.

    • Abbott says:

      Wait. Ramsey tells Jon Stannis died?

      • Grl says:

        OMG mum2two! Did you just spoil THE REST OF THE STORY???

      • mom2two says:

        Ramsey sends Jon a letter to draw him out. No one knows if he’s telling the truth, so no, nothing is spoiled. D&D just spoiled it for you that Stannis seems to be fine in a future book.

        I apologize, I did not think I was spoiling the rest of the story…all that I said is what happened in the last book. And D&D have changed a lot of the plot so most of this is irrelevant to the show.

      • Abbott says:

        I like spoilers and the additional details from the book readers so don’t worry about me 🙂

      • Lilacflowers says:

        In the books, Jon is being handed all sorts of conflicting information from a variety of sources. Ramsey tells Jon Stannis and Mance (yes, he’s still alive in the books, they pulled a switch for the burning) are dead but they also get news saying otherwise AND Melisandre is still at the wall and tells Jon is sister is coming to him for help escaping from her brutal husband – a girl arrives but it isn’t Sansa or Arya. And in the books, Jeyne Poole is married to Ramsey, but he believes she is Arya, not Sansa.

      • mom2two says:

        Thanks Abbott, my intent was not to ruin anything for anyone. I’m just a bit confused as to how Stannis could get back to the Wall, in the books, considering he and his army at last sight in the books are stuck in the snow somewhere outside of Winterfell. I am sure if that’s what GRRM wants to happen, he will make it happen somehow.

      • Lindy79 says:

        Me neither, ever since mimif told me the Hound might be still alive (all in theory only) I’ve been reading bits and pieces about the books.
        Mr Lindy has read all but the last one but he has the memory of a dead gnat and can barely remember stuff.

        And yes mom2two, the impression I got was that yes, GRRM told them Shireen would burn but the implication is that Stannis is not there when it happens and that is people’s issue with the show, that Stannis would do it, we all knew Melisandra is a nutbar capable of it. To my knowledge GRRM hasn’t clarified the situation.

      • Size Does Matter says:

        Someone help me. End of book 5, Stannis is snowbound and waiting, Theon and fake bride show up, pink letter is written and received and Jon reacts. Theon sample chapter from book 6, Stannis is still snowbound and waiting. So…book 5 and 6 have weird overlapping chronology and some things we think are real from book 5 could get backtracked and revised?

      • Bridget says:

        @size: they’re streamlining and condensing the story for the television show. Here’s what we have:
        *they’ve combined Sansa and Jeyne Poole, expediting Sansa’s return to Winterfell (if you remember, book Littlefinger’s plan is to eventually get her back to Winterfell by marriage)
        *they’ve done away with the thread with Mance going to save “fake Arya” as well as the Karstark angle
        *they’ve made the Boltons and Winterfell a primary storyline. In the book if you remember, Roose’s hold on Winterfell is a lot more tenuous as there are still a lot of Stark bannermen around – it’s a little more of a foregone conclusion that it’s not going to end well for the Flayed Man.

        Personally, I think that what we’re seeing is the endgame – we’re already at the end of Season 5 and still not much closer to any sort of resolution of any of these threads.

      • Size Does Matter says:

        Thanks, B, but I was jut talking about the books. The Theon sample chapter either spoils the end of book 5 and we know a certain letter is not what it appeared to be or the two books do not run consecutively (like how books 4 and 5 were parallel in parts, opposite of books 1, 2, and 3 which were consecutive).

        Also, some people think the letter Stannis asked Davos to deliver to Jon in this week’s show may be the show version of that certain letter but delivering different news, intended to produce the same result.

      • Bridget says:

        Oh duh. Oops!

        I’m kind of rusty on some of the ins and outs of the end of book 5, but if Martin once again got some of the moderators from Westeros.org to check his manuscript for continuity (he did that for #5) I’d at least guess that they’ve got the timeline correct and aren’t backtracking. Plus I dont think he’s going to do concurrent storytelling again. “Splitting” 4 and 5 was kind of a disaster.

      • Abbott says:

        Size & B, I’m just taking a guess, but I thought the letter Davos is carrying is asking for help (troops)? If so, why does he think Jon would send people considering the situation at The Wall?

      • Size Does Matter says:

        Hey, @Abbott. Stannis may not know Davos has been learning to read, so he may have totally lied to Davos about the contents of the letter. Book readers are suspicious of the letter thanks to the pink letter in the end of book 5, discussed upthread, which incites a reaction from Jon and then bad things happen. BUT there are lots of theories that the letter in the book is not what it appears to be (contents and author are fake)

      • Abbott says:

        Thanks, SDM. I’ve fallen into reddit hole of Bastard Letter (Pink Letter) theories.

        *wraps self in tin foil burrito*

      • M.A.F. says:

        @Size- I just started book 5 and in the opening GRRM says that book 4 & book 5 take place right after events in book 3. Book 4 is the stuff happening in King’s Landing, the Iron Islands (ARE WE EVER GOING TO SEE THOSE EVENTS ON THE SHOW?), and Dorne while in book 5 it is the stuff happening up North at the Wall & Winterfell and across the Narrow Seas. I think this is why the story lines keep getting crossed & confusing.

      • Lilacflowers says:

        @SizeDoesMatter, book spoilers: Theon and fake Arya are helped in escaping by under cover wildling women, who are at Winterfell with a still alive Mance, undercover as a wandering minstrel. They escape to find Theon’s sister and some Iron Men, who themselves have just escaped from Stannis after losing a battle to him. Also book Davos was sent to White Harbor to enlist help from Wyman Manderly. Manderly’s sons have been killed at the Red Wedding or held captive by Freys or Lannisters. Manderly puts Davos on trial for treason, executes him (a Frey), and then sends him to find Rickon. He then goes to Winterfell to attend Ramsey’s wedding to fake Arya and starts murdering the other guests.

      • Size Does Matter says:

        Thanks @MAF. I suspect the beginning of book 6 is going to run parallel to the end of book 5, which means things I thought were one way are probably not that way. I’m glad I didn’t start reading when the books originally came out. I can’t imagine trying to sustain interest for 18 years.

        @Abbott – check out bryndenbfish.wordpress.com and cantuse.wordpress.com for many many many theories about that letter, Stannis, and the North (and lots of other things).

      • Size Does Matter says:

        Thanks @Lilacflowers, but I’ve read all the books and all the sample chapters from book 6. My problem is this – book 5 end with the pink letter. Book 6 contains a Theon sample chapter. Either the things that happen in that Theon same chapter pre-date the pink letter or the pink letter is false or both. Pink letter cannot be true and occur chronogically before the Theon sample chapter from the next book. So, either book 5 and 6 are partly parallel (like book 4 and 5) or we know the pink letter is false. But I can’t see GRRM releasing a sample that spoils a major cliffhanger so I’m assuming they’re parallel. In fact, I remember reading that several parts of book 6 were originally written to be included in book 5 and were saved for later. As @Bridget pointed out above, people didn’t like this (the weird parallel chronology) about book 4 and 5, so I expect they’ll be mad again when 6 is finally released.

      • Bridget says:

        @Size: I haven’t actually read the Theon chapters yet, but I could easily see GRRM releasing a sample that moved past that particular cliffhanger and I thought we all just assumed that the Pink Letter was a bunch of lies intended to draw Jon out? Because I don’t know that I would call that a major spoiler to find out it’s not true.

      • Size Does Matter says:

        To anybody still interested in my discussion yesterday on the Theon sample chapter from book 6, GRRM said on his website when he released the chapter that it takes place chronologically prior to the end of book 5.

  10. Jenns says:

    I’m assuming that D&D are going to end up spoiling the entire book series, because they know how it ends and there is no way GRRM is going to finish the books by the time the show concludes.

    I know that D&D take their own liberties with the story, but they are also following GRRM vision for some of it.

    • A.Key says:

      Yep, amazing how that seems to be occurring to people only NOW……

    • Lilacflowers says:

      There are a whole host of characters in the books who aren’t in the show and I care about them so knowing how the major plot line ends won’t ruin the books for me

    • littlestar says:

      So if the last two books aren’t finished yet, and GRRM is apparently giving the show runners the storyline for the next two years without any actual source material….. It’s possible that by the time he gets around to writing and publishing the 7th book, the show will have been done for several years….. And GRRM can change everything if he wants, and have his storylines and ending in the final book be completely different from the ending of the TV show.

      I wonder how much that would piss people off.

      I bet he’s going to do exactly that.

      • A.Key says:

        And people would still complain that the show didn’t follow the books…

      • M.A.F. says:

        which is what GRRM has too been saying since the beginning. The show is the show and the books are the books.

  11. paola says:

    What he did was terrible but if we look at this story with a different point of view all I see is a King trying eveything he can to avoid what it’s coming. Stannis sees Shireen’s sacrifice as the price to pay for the greater good. We all know what it’s coming ( winter is coming DUUUHo) and I understand that as a religious devotee he’s willing to di ANYTHING to win.
    Do I agree with his choice? No
    Would I have done the same? God no.

    Does Drogon make house calls? I’d love to see him do a flyby and burn the Boltons, Mel and Stannis at ones.

    At this point I am team White Walker. It seems like they like babies and they hate fire so it’s good enough for me. I don’t believe the Night’s King is after the Iron throne at all.
    Something obviously pissed him off. At this point I hope Jon could be the NK’s son or at least a relative. Maybe Benjen is the NK?

    Jamie’s clumsy handwriting reminded me of Davos’ final words to Shireen, in which he thanked her for ‘teaching him to be a grownup’
    it’s a nice life lesson: everybody can be parented at practically any age, even if one’s actual parents show no interest in doing it.

    Davos is the father Shireen truly deserved. I can’t wait to see what Davos will do once he’ll find out.
    I hope he’ll stafe safe and sound in Castle Black and lets Mel and Stannis get what they really deserve from either Brienne or the Boltons.

    • Abbott says:

      You know sh*t is bad when the audience increasingly becomes #TeamWhiteWalker. The NK can put Jon Snow in one of those motorcycle side cars and go kill everyone who isn’t a Stark.

      • paola says:

        Jon could become a WW and we’d all be happy.

        That Olly fetus is really grating on my nerves. He deserves a slap. or 2.

      • Abbott says:

        Little Ice Hunk. I like it.

      • paola says:

        I think Jon would look great with icy blue eyes. You know… back hair, blue eyes, nice abs.. actually I don’t know what he’s waiting for!!

      • Hazel says:

        @ paola

        Back hair isn’t very attractive though. 🙂

      • paola says:

        @Hazel

        ahahah!! Ooops!
        I’ll say it again… BLACK hair, blue eyes, nice abs..

    • Bridget says:

      Tannins sold his soul to become king. He deluded himself into thinking that it was because he was the best man for it, when instead it was the validation he’d never gotten after being overshadowed by Robert (and then Renly). This is a man that had his own brother assassinated by a shadow. Of course ge would kill his own daughter when his back was up against the wall.

      • Abbott says:

        Bridget! Did you get caught up?

      • Lilacflowers says:

        Tannins? Have you been enjoying a fine Dornish red? SHARE!

      • Bridget says:

        I am caught up! And clearly drinking too much wine (more like posted while I was waiting for my running partner to show up and didn’t notice the auto correct).

        The television show Stannis and Shireen were much more sympathetic than the books. At this point, Stannis is so corrupted by the things he’s done in the name of the red god that I’m amazed people are shocked he killed his daughter.

    • Talie says:

      It’s be great if Sansa escaped to have Davos advising her — or helping her find her brothers.

    • Lilacflowers says:

      I’m really curious to see what the show does with Davos. In the books, Stannis does send him away before the march on Winterfell but not back to the Wall. He sends him to White Harbor to find allies, which he does, but the allies agree to help if Davos does something else. And so he does. Following the path of Rickon and Osha and Shaggy Dog and that’s where we leave him.

      • paola says:

        I hope he’ll stay in Castle black until Stannis and Mel are dead.

      • Abbott says:

        Agree with paola. I hope he hears what Stannis did and defects, staying at The Wall to help. Old gods know Jon will need any ally he can get right now.

      • paola says:

        Oh Abbott!! I just realised that Davos will split Mel in 2 when he finds out! i’m sure he’ll blame her for shireen’s fate.
        Nothing could have stopped Stannis from doing what he did. Stannis would have killed Davos if he tried to stop Stannis any way.
        Poor Shireene yes but at least davos is still alive and useful.

      • Bridget says:

        Davos is interesting. He’s 100% loyal to Stannis… but he’s also got a good head on his shoulders and knows how rotten everything has become with Melisandre in the mix. Perhaps his role is to try to salvage Stannis’s humanity?

  12. grabbyhands says:

    My understanding (I haven’t read this far) was that the whole point of him protecting Shireen was that she was the last true Baratheon heir to the throne, his legacy, and he meant to see her safe. Since I haven’t finished the series (books) I can’t attest to the accuracy of this.

    Having said that, the reason I don’t watch the show anymore is because I feel like D&D care much less about whether or not something fits the narrative, than they do about it being shockingly violent and controversial in order to draw in and maintain viewers. I am not normally squeamish about this type of stuff, but I feel like the show is more torture porn that it is story telling. And yes, I know that the story itself is a violent one.

  13. Talie says:

    The season definitely seems to be igniting a huge war with book readers and the show. Frankly, I think book readers should be thrilled to have the show because I’ve tried to read the books and the writing…

    Anyway, I just want to see Sansa rise next week in some way. I don’t need Theon or Brienne to help her escape either. Just boss up and do something awesome.

    • senna says:

      I agree. I never would have read the books if it weren’t for the show because the writing style is just not my cup of tea. (I’m currently working on A Storm of Swords). The plots are fantastic and I really like the multi-POV storytelling, and sometimes – for the younger characters – GRRM gets the character’s voice down pat. But I think the show brings a richness and detail to the visual world of the books that is only hinted at in the text.

      Watching Shireen die was torturous, one of the hardest things I’ve ever watched, but I am always surprised when something terrible happens in the show and people are like, “enough! this was across the line!” In nearly the very first episode Bran is pushed out of a tower by Jamie Lannister because Bran saw him F**king Cersei, fully intending to kill Bran. I think that set the tone for the cruelty in the show – not even children are off-limits, and Jamie was completely casual about his own actions.

      We’ve also seen Stannis go to war against Renley and Meilsandre’s shadowy hit on Renly was with Stannis’s blessing. Others may disagree, but I think this was the final action that will corrode and break Stannis’s “worthiness” to be king. He’s gone from “hard-nosed righteous guy who has a legit claim but who is too inflexible to be a good ruler” to “despicable man who deserves what’s coming having sacrificed everything sacred to him for power.” He is now a villain.

      The kid who played Shireen was a really good actor and I’ll miss her on the show.

    • Olenna says:

      I’m a book reader, and I’m thrilled to have the show. IMO, if the book complainers don’t like what the showrunners’ produce, stop watching the effing show. It’s just absurd that they think GRRM and the producers owe them loyalty and some sort of tailored entertainment just because they bought and read the books before the show was released. I read other recap blogs and some of them have a ridiculous, almost pathetic (like get-a-f*g-life) sense of entitlement. And, yeah, Sansa needs to make a move, and fast!

      • Becks says:

        Well said Olenna, I completely agree.

      • phlyfiremama says:

        Ditto. I love both the show and the books~so much is both lost, and gained, when switching from book to tv, and vice versa. I firmly believe that the show was PERFECTLY cast with the best actors for the jobs~those come to life characters make trudging through the books FAR easier the second time. It had to be seriously adapted for TV, things had to shift and change just to fit anywhere near the scope of this tale. I would LOVE to see the episodes on a big screen, in a theater!!!

    • Lilacflowers says:

      I’m a book reader and I’m fine with the show. No matter how the show runners conclude it, I will read Martin’s books if he publishes them in my lifetime. I want to know what happens to Mance’s baby and Val and whatever is going on at the Citadel and Griff and Lord Manderley with his own war of vengeance against the Freys and Lannisters and Jeyne Poole and JoJen and the real Sand Snakes and Quentyn’s friends and Penny.

      One thing about the us book readers, even though some spoilers float about, we have kept major plot points from non-readers for many years. I watched the red wedding episode with three people who hadn’t read the books and all of them were furious with me that I didn’t warn them. So many people were stunned by that episode and the story of it had been out there for at least five years.

  14. A.Key says:

    Am I the only one who’s not reeling that GAME OF THRONES decided to brutally kill a minor character??
    WTF people, how is anyone still shocked by this show, if you watch it regularly?

    PS. this takes the cake though “they’re accusing Weiss and Benioff of spoiling the book” – omfg, lol, are they aware that the producers need to start shooting season 6 soon and book 6 is nowhere near on the horizon? wtf are they supposed to do, wait for Martin to finish the books and then continue the show??! might as well cancel it if that’s the case…

    • Mrs. Darcy says:

      Well infanticide from a character who has some good traits (even though he committed fratricide) is still a pretty big shock. Especially as they twisted the knife by making Stannis seem like he really loved his daughter this series. Not even Cersei would do this, well, out of mercy she almost did. But no, it’s just a different level of horrible humanity imo anyway. I just hope Davos grows a pair and does something, he loved that little girl.

      • A.Key says:

        I personally found the Red Wedding, Theon’s torture and Jaime&Cersei having incestuous rapey sex next to their dead son worse, but ok.

      • enike says:

        A.Key: I didnt really mind the Red wedding, because I didnt like the characters (robb, catylyn, talisa – they were quite annoying, especially catylyn, I hated her, I was glad she died), Theon´s torture was the worst, but Theon is not a likeable character, so again, the brutality shocked me, but I didnt feel sympathy towards Theon. Jamie and cersei sex next to their dead son was just creepy.

        But I really liked shireen, I really enjoyed all her scenes, especially with davos. I could even see her in the Iron throne, she was more mature than the most of the characters and good-hearted as well. And inteligent, well-read. She would make a better queen than Dany and definitely better than her father or cercei…I am really sad they killed her off….. 🙁

        I know that Davos is really loyal to Stannis, but I hope he will kill him or at least try to do something….. or leave Stannis and team up with somebody else

      • Josefa says:

        I agree with enike. The Red Wedding was shocking but morally speaking, the Starks were traitors and the Freys weren’t their friends or anything.

        Stannis killed the daughter (a very innocent and sweet girl) he apparently loved in a truly awful way. Murder between family members is nothing new to this show, but every one who did that had a reason to hate each other.

      • Bridget says:

        The series made Shireen extra cute and sweet and loveable, and that made it more cutting when she died. But honestly, it was so obvious that she was a goner that by the time it happened it didn’t actually get to me that much. Perhaps that’s just because I have an ice cube instead of a heart.

      • Mrs. Darcy says:

        The Red Wedding was awful and shocking, I agree. And Jamie and Cersei also. But Shireen was a complete innocent. It just felt cold and inevitable and like it’s going to get seriously bleak. Plus re-watched s 1-2 recently and all that Red Wedding stuff…totally Caitlyn Stark’s fault, just like Ned. Karma, she messed her family up BAD. I was kind of fed up of Dany and her schtick but now I’m basically like, you go burn (most of) those dumb creeps in Westeros UP, scorch them with your dragons girl!

      • Lilacflowers says:

        He didn’t just murder the innocent daughter he loved, he did so in the most painful way possible and stood and watched her suffer and die without showing himself to her.

  15. Viv says:

    They’ve got ahead of the books now, and they are ruining them for me, unfortunately. I really thought Shireen and Patchface held some significance. It’s not that they’ve spoiled one book plot, a lot of the characters from the books who are still alive are now dead on the show or haven’t appeared at all, like Lady Stoneheart or Coldhands.

    Mance Rayder, Barristan Selmy, Princess Shireen, and now it seems likely that Ramsay or Theon will go down in the finale.

    I get that people think if you don’t want the books spoiled, don’t watch the show, but it’s not that simple. I started watching years ago, and The Winds of Winter was meant to be out a lot sooner. I get that the show has to keep things tight, but they’ve left out great chunks of the book and it’s not as though they’re creating their own plots, Martin is spoiling his own book.

    So really he’s the one I’m annoyed with, not the showrunners

    /end rant.

    • paola says:

      I wasn’t shocked. I was gobsmacked that Stannis really went down that road.
      His brain is f*cked up for good by Mel’s delusions of grandeure.
      I think Mel should swap the flame’s reading for tea leves’reading instead. She’s either dyslexic or stupid.
      Why the f*ck are you staring into the fire if fire is already burning your camp????
      I really loathe her. she needs to go.

    • A.Key says:

      Agreed, Martin is spoiling his own books, folks should direct their anger at him.

      However, I bet he’s actually relieved he can just give up on the books now basically and let Benioff&Weiss finish the story for him.

      • Bridget says:

        Ugh. Martin. I’ll ask it again: what did he expect when he got into bed with HBO?

      • littlestar says:

        Bridget, I second that. I think that by the time he finally publishes books 6 and 7, most people aren’t going to give a crap. Only the diehards will buy the books. He’s really dug himself a hole. I said above that the only way he’ll probably able to salvage anything is to change everything and make it completely different from the final 2 seasons of the show.

        That’ll really piss people off! Lol.

      • Bridget says:

        He really didn’t seem to get that HBO was moving forward whether he was ready or not. He was convinced they could just do 2 television seasons per book or even add in a season of Dunk & Egg in between.

      • littlestar says:

        OMG it sounds like he lives in his own world LOL. 5 seasons in, based on 5 books, I feel like this show really drags a ton. I couldn’t imagine each book being TWO seasons. Yikes!

  16. paola says:

    So Dorah the explorer has been touching everybody by now.. does it mean Danaerys has grey scale now?
    Or as mimif said you only get greyscale when you only touch the part of skin affected by the disease?

    • Hazel says:

      What if Grey Worm gets the virus too, would he be called Greyscale Worm?

      Speaking of which, where was he last night? Day off?

      • paola says:

        He’s probably still recovering from the fight in which Ser Barristen died. Or maybe he’s dead too?
        That scene with Missandei and Torgonudo was quite confusing. It looked to me like he was about to die.

      • Lilacflowers says:

        I wondered that too. Perhaps back guarding the pyramid.

      • Bridget says:

        He’s probably still recovering. He took an awful lot of stabbings.

      • Linn says:

        I was wondering about Grey Worm as well.
        First Tyrion has to save Missandei from getting killed by a harpy (those a very badass btw) and later Daario Naharis of all people drags her out of the way so she won’t be trampled to death by drogon.

        It does makes sense he is still recovering, I hadn’t thought about that. I miss seeing him though.

  17. WTF says:

    So I’m waiting to see what happens to Melisandre when this doesn’t work. I’m anticipating that she will continue in her ruthless self-preservation, and suggest that Shireen wasn’t really his daughter?
    Or more refreshingly she might say “Seriously? You killed your daughter and now you wanna judge me for lying? hypocrite much??”

  18. Mooncat says:

    The witch Melisandre could have given Shiree some sedative before she was burned to death. I hope Melisandre burns to death. She should like that. And Stannis as well.

    • Linn says:

      That’s what I said. If Melisandre likes fire so much, she just needs to meet angry Drogon.

  19. mooncat says:

    Shortly before the poor girl was burned, they showed a man in a hood somehow hiding in the crowd. Who could he be?