(Note: this post contains spoilers for the series.)
By now, you’ve at least heard of the Netflix documentary Making A Murderer. The riveting 10-episode series told the story of Steven Avery, a man imprisoned for 18 years for a sexual assault he didn’t commit. Soon after he was freed, he and his nephew, Brendan Dassey, were convicted for the brutal murder of Teresa Halbach in 2005. The documentary calls into question the tactics of the sheriff’s department in Wisconsin’s Manitowoc County, where the crime took place, and which Avery was suing for $36 million. (There are also many things the documentary left out both for and against Avery’s innocence.) After a lengthy trial, Avery was convicted and sentenced to life in prison. Brendan was also found guilty and sent to prison, ineligible for parole until 2048.
The case has been attracting national attention, and Nancy Grace has (unsurprisingly) attached herself to it like the legal pit bull she is. A petition for a pardon for Avery went to the President, but he has no jurisdiction on the matter. Since he has been in prison, Avery has been doing extensive research to put together his case to have the court’s decision overturned, but has been unsuccessful so far. According to TMZ, he has filed an appeal citing a tainted jury, inadequate legal representation and illegal search tactics by the police. Avery will be aided in his appeal by a new legal team, Kathleen Zellner and Tricia Bushnell, who made the announcement in a press release on Twitter.
Steven Avery’s new attorneys: Kathleen Zellner & Tricia Bushnell #MakingAMurderer https://t.co/uRwQFQmMJU pic.twitter.com/VbtRsBNqzb
— Kathleen Zellner (@ZellnerLaw) January 8, 2016
The team is definitely fighting an uphill battle, as Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker, who has never issued a pardon during his five-year tenure, recently posted about the case on his Twitter account.
Viewers of the Netflix series on Steven Avery should read the unanimous opinion of the Court of Appeals before jumping…
Posted by Governor Scott Walker on Monday, January 11, 2016
In papers filed by Avery on Monday, he claims that the search warrant that investigators used to look for evidence of the murder on the Avery property was not valid. He also claims that “Juror C.W.” told the jury room that Avery was “f—-ng guilty,” and went on to tell his fellow jurors, “If you can’t handle it why don’t you tell them [the judge] and just leave.” The appeal is now in the hands of the the Wisconsin Court of Appeals, and it’s unsure if the court will declare a mistrial in the controversial case.
In other news, Brandon Dassey’s half-brother Brad, a self-professed “Christian/Gospel Hip Hop/Rap artist” just released a track via Soundcloud called “They Didn’t Do It,” making a musical case for the innocence of his uncle and brother. With lyrics like, “Injustice slammed in the face of 2 innocent people” and “Not a fair trial/not a fair game/whole thing’s wack/just a cryin’ shame”, you can definitely see what side he’s on.
There are so many questions revolving around this case that it seems like we may never find out what really happened and who is really guilty. Did you watch? Who do you think is the guilty party?
This series was so hard to watch; every time Steven Avery’s parents were on the screen, it broke my heart to see the emotional strain they were under. I really don’t know if he is innocent or not, but he should have had a fair trial and it was obvious there was a lot of bias in that courtroom, and community, and essentially, he never really stood a chance.
I only got through the first episodes. Whenever I saw his parents, it just was so upsetting. They put their all into defending their son – and it broke my heart.
The issue is – even if that first episode – I quickly realized he was a real piece of work. Absolute shit show of a human. It’s a case of “hey you’re scum of the earth – but at least you didn’t rape that woman”. Normal people don’t run others off the road. Normal people don’t light cats on fire. I cannot root for him as a human – whatsoever.
But on a legal standpoint – he was screwed. It infuriated me how much they botched the case. And no matter what a shit human being he is – the justice system was severely abused and we need some major reform to stop this kind of crap from happening.
I can’t really defend the stuff he did when he was younger, but if you watch further into the series, he does change. I guess 18 years in prison will do that to a person. He could come across as really bitter, but he doesn’t to me, just determined.
I don’t know. Maybe he puts on a show for the documentary and he really is the kind of guy you believe, but I just don’t get that feeling from his family.
It’s Brendan I can’t get over. Why? What an idiot?!
@Jo who wrote “but if you watch further into the series, he does change”.
This is an extract from the great Pajiba piece on the case here http://www.pajiba.com/netflix_movies_and_tv/why-most-people-thought-steven-avery-was-guilty-before-netflix-released-making-a-murderer.php
“After he was released from jail, he also beat his fiancee, choked her until she lost consciousness, dragged her out to the car and said, “I should get the gun and kill you.” His fiance’s story changed a few days later, however, and Avery was given a citation for disorderly conduct (this incident was largely missed by the media at the time)…. like a lot of victims of domestic violence, his fiance recanted the story.”
I cant comment on the murder but that documentary was edited to present Avery as sympathetic precisely because that plays heavily in peoples psychology. The outrage we feel at shady law enforcement is magnified when their victim is not himself also a victimiser.
Me too, Erinn!! Could only make it one episode because after seeing him and hearing about the cat story, it was impossible for me to feel sympathy for him.
I might go back and attempt to watch the whole thing because after seeing varying opinions about his situation in my FB feed, my curiosity is getting the best of me…
That’s where I am, Kitten. I’m tempted to just hate watch it through to the end. I feel so bad knowing that this mess of the system is something that happens more than we’d know – but for him as a person? Well. I’m not rooting for him. I’m rooting for his case to be something that draws attention to the changes needed, and that’s it.
@Erinn and @Kitten: what engrossed me and helped me watch the series was to not look at it from the perspective of the character of Steven Avery, but from the perspective that the American justice system is fundamentally flawed and stacked against most people. I agree that he sounds like a terrible person, but terrible people deserve the full fairness of the law, and I believe that this was not the case for Avery. It is grossly unjust that a person is punished for crimes he didn’t do, regardless of what other crimes he did commit, and it is a travesty of justice for both the victim and the accused that the authorities handled the investigation in this manner.
I’m with you guyson the cat and his prior offenses.
What got me…..
The way the whole case was handled. It was horrible and truly scares me that the legal system can be so abused. The recordings like the license plate, mishandling evidence, the violation of rights like hiding Avery from his lawyers to question him in a manner that is another violation of rights? Basic things that if the evidence was there they wouldn’t have needed to do.
Also, what happened to those voicemails? That brother is shady as hell imo.
Naya, that Pajabi piece is B.S. Their source for all these accusations against Avery is the D.A.’s office. Some of the details were covered in the documentary, the others are propaganda from the prosecution. And it boggles my mind that one cannot fathom that a guy like Avery – flawed and “white-trashy” and all – could and was railroaded by the county govt, who had everything to gain by shutting him up. The documentary was not biased – they just presented a picture that Americans do not usually see in the elitist, white-upper-middle-class, religious, nationalistic, platitude-filled news media.
Frivolity
The documentary was absolutely bias. Admitted so by netflix. That’s not to say the facts presented were false. Just that it was from the DA side.
The ONLY thing we can be certain of here is from a legal standing everything was done wrong. The prosecution and police station was corrupt. The testing in the lab was Grossly Negligent and that’s being kind.
From the evidence that wasn’t dreamed up he should never have even been arrested for this murder.
That’s not to say if he did it or not. Just how horribly they handled the case.
Cat thing? Done when he was a drunk teen. I understood he threw their cat over the fire and he caught on fire by accident.
Running ‘people’ off road? Uh, it was 1 person: he admits he had an incident with a female cousin of his who was married to the sheriff’s deputy. She was the piece of work, had told some silly whopper of a lie about Steven that he was masturbating on lawn with no pants, he confronted her for telling lies about him. This was the woman who set wheels in motion for his first false conviction.
Strange that you’d try to paint these things as more nefarious than they are, and present him as someone running throngs of people off roads.
If you watch the show, u clearly see the prejudice and bias Steven and his family incur from others in that small town. It was like they were black folk. They were entirely self sufficient auto salvage owners, living on acres of car lots, but considered uneducated white trash by the rest in town. The town resented them.
Oh, good, I thought I was the only one who hated him from the get-go.
Sure, the police department screwed up the investigation, and they obviously wanted to see Avery in jail. However, there were similar accusations against the police who handled the DeFeo case, yet Ronnie DeFeo was guilt as ****. I’m not trying to defend the police department; I’m only saying that a botched investigation doesn’t make Avery a good person. And I don’t believe for a second that he was the innocent kid that the “documentary” made him out to be or that he did nothing to incur the wrath of the townsfolk.
And the bias in the “documentary” was obvious from the moment they spoke of Avery’s actions – the burglaries and setting a cat on fire – as “past mistakes”. -_-
@frivolity-
I live about an hour or so from Manitowoc county. I followed the trial. He called her there under the pretense of a photography job, , he then abducted and imprisoned her, sexually assaulted her, pressured his intellectually challenged nephew to join in the assault, shot her, dismembered and burned her corpse. The bullet came from his gun. Even, I say *even* if the search warrants were not legally obtained, he still murdered Teresa.
It’s convenient to claim that his representation was incompetent. It’s easy to claim the jury was tainted. At this point, it is here-say. The jury heard and reviewed material and DNA evidence, came to a decision, and convicted him
If you want to say that the county LE was trying to avoid a payout for his prior wrongful conviction, you may. Maybe you should also look at his history of animal abuse and domestic violence and factor those in.
One should also not discount that he may have been of the mind that, ” I lost 18 years for rape, I’m gonna make up for that now”. That is not impossible.
Shame on you and all the other conspiracy theorists who are giving these documentarians a buzz. Think of Teresa. If you can’t envision any portion of what she suffered, find some humanity deep within yourself for her family.
@AntiSocialButterfly
Wow. Just because you believe something to be so, doesn’t mean it is. There is no legitimate evidence to support what you claim, if fact, all of the evidence points otherwise. And just because you live within an hour of the goings-on, does not mean that you have more knowledge of the situation. The travesty is that Teresa’s murderer is likely still out there and nobody gives a damn.
@frivolity-
Is the irony of your response lost on you?
600+ hours of courtroom time condensed to- what -10 hours of footage? You are not privy to all that the jury heard and saw.
I just can’t with this anymore.
@ frivolity-
Here’s something else for you to mull over from the NY Times, dated 12/20/2015:
In 2005, Ms. Ricciardi, 45, and Ms. Demos, 42, were a pair of graduate film students at Columbia University who had been dating for two years. In the midst of planning their individual thesis work, they read about Mr. Avery’s case in an article in The Times and thought it could be an opportunity to shoot a documentary.
That December, the two traveled to Manitowoc, Wis. “We rented a car and we borrowed a friend’s camera,” Ms. Demos said. “It was really to test the waters and see if there was a story.”
I watched it and it was riveting. Addictive. The cases involving Avery and his nephew are incredibly complex but was it proven by the prosecution BEYOND ALL REASONABLE DOUBT that they were guilty? By no means. And I shared the general admiration and just a little bit more for Avery’s lawyers, Dean and Jerry – especially Jerry – because after all the horror and pain on show, a little diversion of a crush was necessary for this viewer. But action needs to be taken, these convictions don’t look safe. And RIP Teresa.
It’s really great to see someone who understands what this docu-series is about. It’s not about guilt or innocence it’s about the justice system acting in an unprofessional, unethical, unlawful and at times unconstitutional manner.
I don’t give a shit whether Avery did it or not, and I don’t think he seems like a nice guy but that IS completely irrelevant. Everyone deserves a fair and just trial. If you disregard that for one person (or two in the case of Dassey) it will affect other people – no doubt.
The thing that really shits me about this whole ‘story’ is that while a bunch of white guys are tussling over the law, female victims are piling up. The original rape victim, the two additional rape victims and Halbach. That’s not fair. It’s not fair that Teresas family will never actually know more definitively what happened to her. If the police actually did their jobs they could possibly know more – and that finger could be pointed directly at Avery making this whole mess go away and resolving the situation once and for all. But no, they are shitty cops who are bad at their job (at a minimum) and have drawn this out for eternity.
“A bunch of white guys”? Why did you make that comment?
This man poured gasoline on his cat and threw it into a fire. I frankly don’t care if he’s guilty or not. I hope he rots in hell.
Not just this. He had repeatedly assaulted women both before and after his sentence. Its not even disputed that he has waved his gun at a woman and threatened to kill her over who-knows-what. His family is even worse. His brothers are just…animals.
You gotta give it to the documentarians for how they somehow managed to construct sympathetic figures out of this.
@Naya I’m curious about the information you have on his family. What is it exactly? I watched the show, and thought they did a great job at highlighting inequality within the justice system. I wasn’t totally convinced he was innocent, but his nephew’s court case infuriated me. Anyways, just curious about what you know about his family.
One brother was charged and acquitted with 2nd degree sexual assault, He got 12 months’ probation over a dispute within the family – then less than a year later, he was charged with rape, and had attempted to strangle his wife with a phone cord.
Other brother is a drunken wife beater, few years later he was charged with sexual assault of a child getting him 4th degree sexual assault and battery.
This is just stuff available from the time it was happening – probably a ton of articles out there.
The problem is that they’re all incredibly unsympathetic- but since the legal system did so many stupid stupid things the family has been made out to be this underdog family who just got shit on constantly. Do they deserve proper justice? Absolutely. But these are not innocent people in a general sense. He may be innocent of the crimes they botched getting him on – but he’s vile.
@felixswan2 – There are many websites showing the convictions of his brothers and Brendan’s now stepfather.
From Yahoo News: “In the 1990s, Charles Avery was charged with sexually assaulting his wife and strangling her with a telephone cord, Milwaukee Magazine reported. The younger brother Earl Avery also spent time in jail and on probation for multiple incidents in the 1990s, such as beating his wife and sexually assaulting a child, Milwaukee Magazine reported. ”
Scott Tadych – Brendan’s stepfather – also has a violent criminal past.
As for Steven Avery, he harassed and threatened to kill his wife when she divorced him while he was in jail for the rape that he didn’t commit. He spent 3 years telling her that he was going to kill her and drawing exactly how he was going to do it. It was so bad that a judge revoked his parental rights to his children.
There also are apparently two women who signed affidavits for the prosecution of this latest trial saying that Avery had raped them. One of them was his underage relative and the other was a woman in her 40’s. Also, in one of Brendan’s talks with his mother, he mentions that Steven molested him and his brothers. Avery isn’t a nice person at all, to put it mildly.
Even though I do think that the police planted some evidence, and there is question as to whether Avery and Brendan killed Teresa, I think Steven is right where he needs to be. As for Brendan, if he was forced to do what he did – if he did anything – then I think he’s spent enough time behind bars to atone for it.
@Naya – I completely agree that it’s amazing the job that the makers of the docudrama did to make that family seem sympathetic to the viewer. As some have said on the sub Reddit that I’ve been reading – what in the world were those parents like to have raised 3 boys to be so horribly violent against women?
@Corey – For theories, I like this particular page’s quick writeup, and then the subReddit. Personally, I am leaning toward Bobby and Scott having killed her to set up Steven, but the “German man” is a possibility, too. (As is Steven killed her at the quarry.) I do want to know why the ex-boyfriend had scratches on his hand which looked like fingernail claw marks, though.
Spoilers: http://fusion.net/story/249427/netflix-making-a-murderer-what-happened-theories/
avery is no angel but the water is being muddied all over, so you’ve got to triple check everything, Jag. both him and the wife behaved atrociously while he was in jail, she kept saying she was going to kill the kids
but case more in point, i read the transcript where dassey says steven touched him. as with other interviews, it’s the investigators that bring it up and keep saying it happened until dassey agrees (kinda, he implies it happened accidentally during wrestling)
the affidavits weren’t used in court because those claims were made and investigated previously and found to have no merit. both tactics were the prosecution’s kinda desperate attempts to paint avery as a sexual deviant
bobby and scott are good possibles. bobby definitely lied about getting up and seeing her at 230 on the stand. bus driver says 3:30 ish and blaine dassey testified bobby was asleep still when he got home at 3:40.
@Erinn
Huh? Even if that’s true, what do the brothers have to do with Steven?!
That Manitowic police department was being sued for 36 million, not to mention the clear cut evidence of their bias and nefarious activity – so I don’t believe anything they have to say regarding any Avery.
She asks you about Steven, who was falsely arrested and locked up for 18 yrs of his life and you cite the charges (not convictions) of his siblings??!!
Then you go on to say, well he could be innocent but he’s vile?
The only vile is coming directly from Manitowic and Sheriff’s deputies who falsely convicted an innocent man and his mentally disabled nephew, twice.
After watching that doc, and seeing how the sheriffs dept railroaded him and falsely convicted him at 19 yrs old out of personal bias the first time, hearing/seeing the interrogations of the learning disabled slow nephew and how they led and planted and threatened that kid in order to get Stephen, seeing Stephen’s unsealed blood evidence that had obviously been tampered with by sheriffs dept, then hearing the nasty vindictive scary thoughts of one of the sheriff dept’s legal experts and his religious fundy bigotry against that family – I literally don’t trust any allegations from Manitowic law enforcement as it pertains to anything Avery.
This. He has threatened violence on several women in his past. Teresa herself was uncomfortable being around him. She was creeped out by him. What really sends off warning bells with me, is when Brandons old brother said he made jokes about her getting rid of her dead body. Who does that? Do think evidence was planted by detectives. More and more think maybe Steven did have something to do with her death but the cops planted evidence on a maybe guilty person. If so, its still an unfair trial. This case is so messed up, guilty or not.
this is what i was saying below–false info
she wasn’t “creeped out”. the prosecutor has been claiming this, but the auto trader person who testified didn’t even imply that. the whole ‘he lured her to the property and she didn’t want to go there’ is totally bunk because she’d been there before and has eyes lol
the joke thing–lemme tell you, that brother lied a few times on the stand. one of the things the doc cut out was that the joke was definitely made at a different time and by someone else there first. the brother admitted to that on the stand b/c the defense busted his timeline
but yeah this case is a mess with a big ‘m’
most interesting thing the doc left out tbh is that while avery prints were not found in or outside of her vehicle, they did find prints they couldn’t match to anyone in the avery family or halbach
Absolutely!! That abuse alone is enough for me not to care one bit if he’s guilty. However, I think its sad that such a terrible person gets a big following because of a clearly one-sided TV show.
This kind of attitude is highly dangerous. The crimes someone has committed before does not make a person guilty of the crime they are being accused of in the moment. This attitude is why Avery was wrongly jailed for 18 years. This attitude is why he, and his nephew, were given an unfair trail for this murder.
I have no idea whether he did it or not. He is clearly a messed up person and not someone I would want to spend any of my time with. However, you cannot judge based on past actions and events. And, as much as I utterly adore cats, his actions in that crime does not equate to the punishment he has received here.
TL;DR – Dont use a bias opinion of someones past to deny them a fair trial. Simple.
Yes YES!! Nope and Patti, DUE PROCESS and fair trials and untainted investigations and effective counsel are STILL things even scumbags and rednecks get to have whether we like em or Not!, don’t get me started on interviewing minors that are clearly not all there without parents or representation ffs
Also in a superficial note me and my gf kept checking time stamps on these trial vids cause besides sounding like a Fargo spoof but just a hair more sinister We could not believe it wasnt the mid 90 the way these folks were dressed and haired up
I didn’t say I thought he was guilty because of the cat incident. I said I don’t CARE if his fat ass is guilty or not. I don’t CARE if he got railroaded or he was playing bridge the day it happened. I hope he rots in there until he dies. He doesn’t deserve to be out on the street. He should have been shot for what he did to the cat.
As it happens, I think the documentary was bs and he’s guilty. But, as I said, I don’t care. I just watched a 60 Minutes about innocent people who spent years in prison after being falsely convicted, and I was in tears for what they have lost. I was outraged that most of them received no compensation at all for having their whole lives ruined. But this guy? He can sit in there forever as far as I’m concerned.
Sorry but I agree with GNAT.
Do I think that he’s guilty of rape because he killed a cat?
No of course not.
But being (potentially) wrongfully convicted doesn’t suddenly make the guy an angel either.
I love how they said in the first episode that he “always owns up to his crimes” as if that somehow absolved him of any responsibility, or was some sort of *proof* of his innocence in the rape case.
Ultimately, neither GNAT or I are on a jury. We have no obligation to be fair or unbiased, you know? I just found the guy to be highly unsympathetic.
Exactly, Kitten. You said it much better. If I was on the jury, I would take my job seriously and probably wouldn’t even know about the cat. If I had any power in the situation, I wouldn’t abuse it. Of course everyone, even this creep, should have a fair trial. I’m just not wasting any energy on whether or not he got one, because I think he’s where he belongs.
@Nope You are so right. You can sometimes, though rarely look at someone’s character and prior related bad acts in determining whether he was likely to have committed another, but you cannot under any circumstances plant evidence, witness tamper, or tamper with evidence to win a conviction! End of story. You do that, the accused must be freed. Those are the standards to which we must hold our judicial, prosecutorial, and law enforcement systems. They cannot be as corrupt as the people they seek to convict. They cannot even be a teensy bit corrupt just to help move things along and get the “right” conviction. The conviction is wrong if they’ve resorted to self help of any kind. It doesn’t matter if they let a monster go free as a result. That would be society’s fault itself for not holding its judicial system and all its players to a higher standard. Finally, Dassey needs to be freed post haste, no matter what happens with Avery.
Nope–Thank you! I’m pretty disturbed by some of the comments on this website, a forum that I generally find to be a bit more educated and fair than most. It serves as more proof of one of the ongoing themes of the documentary–i.e., how pretrial media and stories of past conduct irrelevant to the charges at hand have completely eroded the presumption of innocence.
Those who think the documentary was about Steven Avery and how he doesn’t “deserve” this completely missed the point. He is only a supporting character in that drama. The lead is the broken justice system.
GNAT
Sounds like you just think he should be left to rot because you don’t like him. Partially because of the animal cruelty case.
Not because he’s guilty and there was just evidence against. Calling him a fat ass and creep doesn’t help. I think you just don’t like him.
And because of just opinions no one should be left to rot or be shot.
IMO.
Reading your comments I believe you have an extreme bias and are not fully aware fo the evidence there. I’ll leave things at this since we won’t agree.
But because of your opinions and because it’s based on your dislike and because that dislike comes in part from the animal cruelty there is a true link that you wish him to rot for eternity because of what he did to the cat.
That’s all.
Mixtape.
Exactly!
I can’t believe some commenters on here either. They are exactly the type of people who SHOULDN’T be on a jury. Some commenters are saying they haven’t watched the series beyond one episode but find Avery high unsympathetic and are able to form an opinion on what happened? Like really.
Again, because my other comment was deleted for some reason. We are on a celebrity blog discussing a high-profile case that centers around a highly-polarizing figure. This isn’t a courtroom. Shame on y’all for insinuating that opinions expressed here directly translate to how myself or others would approach our civic duty if we were called to serve on a jury.
To those of you claiming that he *just* burned a cat by accident as a teenager. NO. Dude was a full-grown adult when he doused the cat in gasoline and lit him on fire. That is straight-up torture and indicative of a deeply-disturbed person.
littlestar
It’s a scary thought.
Kitten
No one “just” burns a cat. However, there’s a lack of understanding on what youre doing between someone of average intelligence and someone with a far lower IQ.
And for argument sake (because I do value your thoughts and opinions greatly here) Can that be applied to other cultures that kill what we consider pets for game or food (but not food for survival sake)?
It counts for something that he owned his error and admits it. Those who harm animals don’t share this quality. And they don’t stop with 1 creature either. By all we know here he certainly stopped and no one on either side has claimed otherwise.
Further, I have made some serious mistakes in my youth. Not animal related or physical harm to any living creature, but still errors I hold deep regret, but have not told others of. I have no repeated those errors, but since I have a history I am currently disturbed? Can people not be rehabilitated?
What he did to his cat was deplorable and he is clearly not citizen of the year. But eveyone, even people we don’t like and assholes are entitled to a fair trail. Truth is, there isn’t justice for anyone when the process isn’t fair.
Take for example the rape victim from Avery’s first trail. It wasn’t justice for her or society to have the wrong person imprisioned for a crime he didn’t commit. It certainly didn’t help the other women who were subsequently raped by the true offender because the wrong person was convicted.
I know people an are involved with The Innocence Project and have personally met people who were on death row for crimes they didn’t commit. It’s unacceptable to not examine these issues. Truth is not defendants are sympathetic and there are nasty human beings; but even those people deserve competent legal representation and we should all be able to have faith that the investigators act acted with integrity.
Back to Avery there have also been a slew of new articles talking about additional information left out of the documentary that apparently helps his case. Whatever the case, it’s obvious there were some serious shenanigans going on and the case against SD was even more troubling.
I think he got a fair trial. Anyone who believes that biased documentary needs to do more research. He’s guilty. But I’ll say it again. Don’t care.
I’m sorry GNAT, but I am going to whole heartedly disagree. Anyone who believes that he had a fair trial needs to do some more research. I’ve read most of what there is to read on this case, presenting perspectives from both sides, and it is 100% clear to me that he did not get a fair trial. That doesn’t mean he isn’t guilty, but the right to a fair trial is a fundamental tenet of our justice system. We don’t do trials by lynch mob, no matter how unsavoury the character is.
If a corrupt system did this to him, they can do it to anyone (the less resources you have, the easier it will be). We’ve seen it dozens and dozens of times – people convicted based on stereotypes and vendetta (Donald Marshall Jr., Steven Truscott, etc etc etc).
GNAT, I’m really surprised at your reaction to this – did you see the nature of the legal arguments (read: the utter lack thereof) and evidence collection in the documentary?
Even if he is guilty and/or a “bad person” – do we want to live in a society where this is how our criminal justice system works? We would all be extremely vulnerable to bias, inequality, and miscarriage of justice. I don’t know whether he’s guilty or not, that’s not the point – it’s that he – potentially thousands of others – didn’t get a fair trial. And that the real perpetrators are possibly still out there, committing more crimes.
@Kip
As I said above, if I had any power in this situation, I wouldn’t abuse it. I would see that he got a fair trial to the best of my ability. But as Kitten said above, I don’t have to be unbiased in this situation. Everyone should have a fair trial – that’s our right. The police shouldn’t plant evidence and the rest. But I can’t bring myself to have an ounce of sympathy for this cat killer, rapist, abuser, scum. I know it seems hard hearted, and I guess it is, but in this case, I’m not going to worry about what happens to this man. There are actual innocent people in jail for crimes they didn’t commit. I’ll spend my energy on them. He’s not worth it.
The DNA evidence alone should have been enough for a mistrial. My husband has his PHD in Analytical Chemistry specializing in DNA damage. He was shocked by the analyst and said she went against he very basic standard operating procedure and good practices of every lab.. Anytime a sample is contaminated you have to either discard the sample or it must be labeled inconclusive. A private lab could have faced fines and sanctions for using contaminated DNA, but the states crime lab not only uses it but it is allowed entered into evidence.
@ Mixtape- Indeed!
I’m pretty bummed at comments, too.
tbh GoodNamesAllTaken innocent people end up in jail because of the flaws of the system we saw on full display in this case
its not about whether we like avery or not. i don’t know him and don’t care to. but anyone could end up on the receiving end here, and that’s what is so polarizing
GNAT – yes, that was very disturbing and a game changer for me. I have zero tolerance for anyone who harms any animal.
Wait, so if someone abuses an animal, they should be presumed guilty of any crime they are accused of, and evidence should be found (by any means necessary) to support that accusation?
He also did his time for this to continue on what @Kip says. And missed the birth of his first born. Sorry but you guys are making it sound like he went all Hannibal Lector on the cat when the documents around the case show it was a bunch of drunken idiots trying to one up each other with their drunken idiocy…and it escalated into the situation with the cat. Is this totally abhorrant? Yes. However nothing I haven’t seen groups of drunken red necks egg each other onto before. But again the important part you all seem to be ignoring HE DID THE TIME FOR THAT CRIME.
Kip – please see my comments under FLORC. When I said game changer – I did not mean that I thought Avery should go to jail for murder of Teresa just because he killed a cat. It was a game changer for me to learn the details of how the cat was killed that gave me doubt things were left out of the doc that would sway my initial opinion of the case based solely on the doc.
I often agree with GNAT but not in this case- what Avery appears to have done to the cat should not be “punished” by life imprisonment without hope of parole. If that were the case, the dreadful people who feature in the Animal Cops ( Houston, Philadelphia, Miami etc) series should likewise be locked up for ever. Not feasible, however deplorable their actions. And as I understand it, Teresa’s family declined to take part in interviews with the documentary makers, so the Avery clan were inevitably ” over represented”.
i love cats like there’s no tomorrow but the incident with the cat is completely irrelevant to this case; we don’t live in minority report lol.
[also tbh ‘backwards’ country people getting really drunk and killing an animal is not uncommon]
it’s not about personal sympathy for avery but at how bad the system is here.
Are people just realizing this now though?
“After Innocence” investigated this subject (in a far more effective way IMO) over a decade ago.
yeah some people are. that’s why it’s not a bad thing this is getting so much attention
personally i found how they handled dassey to be the worst thing
It is irrelevant but it sets a pattern for his odd behavior with animals and his violent past behavior with women. I’m a backwoods hillbilly but can’t recall ever hearing about someone drenching a cat in gasoline and throwing it in a fire. That not backwoods behavior thats behavior of a psycho/sociopath. He has several things in his background that makes him not sympathetic and yes dangerous. What is more eye opening though, is people are more disturbed by the cat incident versus his violent behavior toward several women.
if you want to call someone a psychopath, there’s got to be more than one instance of animal harm, and there doesn’t appear to be
the stuff with the women is messy as hell because we’ve got a community where everyone is messing with everyone else, and there’s a metric ton of hearsay
again, not to say avery is angel as he certainly isn’t, but there is a lot of false and/or unsubstantiated stuff flying around right now
Yeah, I could not get over what he did to that poor cat. I was shocked at how so many people didn’t really find that to be a big deal.
I think it’s a big deal, but not what he’s on trial for. He can be put on trial for animal abuse too. That would be more fair.
He was convicted of animal cruelty.
@GNAT If he was convicted of animal cruelty, then he did his time for that, no? He was not on probation for that when he was wrongly convicted of rape. He was not on probation for that when he was (likely wrongly) convicted of this murder. Finally (not directed at you, GNAT), JUST BECAUSE HE LIKELY SHOULD HAVE BEEN FOUND NOT GUILTY DOES NOT MEAN HE IS INNOCENT. There was serious reasonable doubt in this case. We are not living in Syria or China or North Korea. We damned well had better do a much better job of applying our standards of due process in every single case in this land or we are NO better, as we execute innocents ALL THE time. We are NO better when the outcome is exactly the same, we just put on a show beforehand. Demand better, people.
GNAT
I was under the impression they tossed the cat over the fire. Not poured gas on it and tossed it into the fire. Horrible and animal cruelty either way, but intent is far more apparent in 1 version.
This is what I meant when I made the comment above about it being a game changer for me. I watched the doc before I knew or read anything else about him and this case. I felt the doc kind of white washed what happened with the cat. It stated something to the effect that they tossed the cat over a fire barrel and it caught on fire – like it was accidental. But after watching the doc and reading what actually happened with the cat – he soaked it in gasoline and set it on fire and watched it burn. That is what really made me re-look at him and my original opinions on the entire case. I initially thought he was not guilty based solely on the doc but this among other things not mentioned in the doc (the numerous phone calls using *67) gave me doubts.
I don’t know who killed Teresa and it is so sad that she was brutally murdered and discarded as trash. No one deserves that but everyone does deserve a fair trial and I think based on the doc and the defense attorneys comments, it’s clear Avery and his nephew did not and the county had a $36MM motive to ensure he went to jail. Another point – not sure if anyone commented on this or not yet but the fact that the insurance company for the county said they would not cover any $ damages from the civil suit and it would come from the tax payers of the county and the men involved themselves.
Cricket
Thank you for your response. It was white washed, but I can see why. Just as the rape conviction was covered in the 1st 2 episodes it was not really touched upon since. Because it was not what the series lead with. The abuse of the justice system was the lead. His past was touched upon only to give a backdrop.
Personally I am sick at the thought of an animal suffering. I turn into a raging, sobbing disaster at the mention of it. I wrote off Avery and the series over it, but kept watching because of my husband and a part of me wanted to see him go to jail as the pos I assumed he was over it. I binged until 3 or 4 am. Only stopped because we passed out watching.
Still, you’re right. There is way too much in this case that points to others or away from Averys as a suspect. So Many motives for him to be put away by so many people with so much to lose. Meanwhile, the insurance was a major motive for the police that should not have had any part in that investigation. That they without anyone of the leading investigators found all of this clean evidence is worthy of major side eye. That Key falling off the bookcase made no sense.
Guy may have been awful and done awful things, but this whole carriage of justice was flawed in a major way. That terrifies me.
I love Celebitchy sometimes! I saw the cat thing in the first episode and was like….eff this guy! I made it to episode 3 but honestly after doing further research, because the guy gave me the creeps, I think he he might have been involved. Phone records show he called Teresa Halbach 3 times on the day she came to his house. He also specifically requested her and she at some point told her boss that Steven Avery answered the door in just a towel and that she was scared of him. She also requested she not be sent there anymore.
I do think the police department is absolutely corrupt though and he probably deserves another trial.
People who torture animals often go on to killing humans. He’s a sick bastard and j don’t care if he gets out of jail.
Seriously? Wtf. I am 100% punishing people for animal abuse. But to say he should rot in prison for a crime he most likely did not commit, for a crime he committed decades prior?
No wonder the US legal system is so skewed, with ignorant attitudes like that.
Ok, this is the last time I’m going to say this. PLEASE TRY TO READ WHAT I’M SAYING. I’m not saying that he SHOULD be put in prison if he’s not guilty. I’m not saying the police SHOULD plant evidence. I’m not saying that if I was on the jury I would find him guilty of murder because he killed a cat. I’m saying – and this is ALL I’m saying – that I personally do not care what happens to this guy. If he’s not guilty and he gets out, fine. If he’s not guilty and he doesn’t get out, fine. I DONT CARE. After what he did to a helpless animal, he gets no sympathy from me. If people want to waste their time trying to straighten this out and free, him, go for it. I saw a tv show dedicated solely to how much bs was in this documentary, so I was under the impression that he was guilty. I could be wrong about that. All I’m saying is he can rot for all I care. If that makes me ignorant, cruel, unamerican or whatever, fine. That’s how I feel.
Why take the time to read when you can extrapolate your ass off in order to feign outrage because someone doesn’t share the EXACT same opinion as you?
GNAT
I understand what you are saying and disagree.
Here’s why in a basic and quick way.
If he’s innocent for him to be kept in jail is something we should all care about. Why? Because the real killer of this woman is still out there. Because he harmed and killed an animal once does NOT IMO justify leaving a killer out there free.
This is my biggest point to differ with you.
Don’t like him? Fine. Want to toss him in a hole and seal it up? OK. What him put away in place of someone else who can remain free to suit this urge of having him in jail? Not ok.
P.S.
FMORC just read your comments and gave me input. We mmight be reading too far into your statements. So here’s my trying to understand this…
That you just don’t like the guy not taking into consideration the larger picture of what i’ve stated within this comment. Just don’t like him and wish him the worst. Excluding facts we discuss in detail. The seperation of which we are applying to your comments when you, yourself have not applied them.
Am I close?
I’m glad I didn’t get into this earlier because it would have distracted me all day. I watched the whole thing. I stopped affter the 3rd episode because I was horrified at the Dassey interrogation but I forced myself to finish after a few days off. I totally agree with Kitten & GNAT (not the first time). I am not convinced of Avery’s innocence. He served time for the cat incident, true, but despite my disgust at him for that, it wasn’t the reason I found him questionable. His history with women, the fact that his girlfriend was in jail at the time and there’s evidence he was fixated on the photographer…the murder might have been an accidental result of his rage at her denying his advances. It’s hard to know because clearly the police planted evidence..just as they did in the OJ investigation, but police corruption doesn’t make him innocent.
My final reason for distrusting Avery is my strong sense that Dassey is innocent. I’ve seen nothing to suggest that Avery has spoken in Dassey’s defense. Even without admitting guilt he could testify that Dassey was no where near him that afternoon. The absolute travesty of justice we should all be concerned about is a coercced confession from a 16 year old with a low IQ whose lawyer let him be interrogated without representation.
Now, did the legal system “make a Murderer” by sending an obviously innocent man (per his solid alibi, not necessarily his character) to prison for 18 years? Possibly. Let’s take a hard look at what false imprisonment does to a person.
I’m concerned as a non-US citizen how little of you US persons actually understand how your legal system is meant to work and the impact of comments like ‘just let them rot in hell’ does. It means you find a corrupt and ineffective LEO and justice system okay. It will of course be ok until you or someone else you love is embroiled in it and by that stage the behaviors are so ingrained and expected it will be too late.
I dont know who did it but I do know to be wary of the inherent bias in most documentaries. I also know that while the prosecutor is a sketchy, unsympathetic dbag, Avery is an even sketchier, unsympathetic dbag. I also know that theres a woman who died a painful and gruesome death who has been shoved to the side in all the drama.
Right. I saw a piece on TV about this (I think it was 60 Minutes?) and it showed how much evidence had been left out of the documentary. It was ridiculous. The blood he claims was planted by the police was tested by the FBI For a chemical substance that the police would have had to use to preserve it and it was not present, proving it was “real” not planted, blood. His DNA was found on her car. I forget what else, but the documentary was total bs. I think he’s guilty, and I completely agree with you that people should think about what happened to that poor woman before they let this animal back out on the street.
They actually mentioned about the EDTA on the series, as well as his criminal behaviour. You should also see the list of the pro SA left out from the series.
I don’t know if he did it or not, and I very much dislike him for certain things he has done… That doesnt mean he shouldnt have gotten a fair trial. That trial was a joke and it made my blood boil, especially for his nephew. The boy never stood a chance.
Respectfully, him being a sketchy unsympathetic dbag doesn’t make him guilty of murder.
Maybe he is guilty, maybe he is not, but what’s sure is that he was not given a fair trial, there were no presumption of innoncence when the trial started.
The documentary was bias towards Avery, but the prosecution was clearly bias against him.
Thinking of this woman, who was the victim of a gruesome murder, is also to make sure that the actual culprit pay for what he did.
The documentary talked about that one piece. The BPA in the blood. The test from a scientific standpoint was not reliable. There’s a cut off point below which the chemical doesn’t come up as positive. So this test could possibly not be sensitive enough.
As a scientist that whole set of evidence made me uncomfortable and I wouldn’t vouch for it.
Cops probably planted most of the evidence. Avery probably killed Teresa Halback though.
Have you watched it? That FBI testing is sketchy at best.
Agree Detritus – the test showed that the BPA was not detectible in the sample in the car, but it did not establish that it SHOULD have been detectible had the blood been planted. It would not have been that difficult to establish whether or not the BPA should have been detectible using controlled testing. That they didn’t do that testing (or didn’t report the result) makes me call total BS on the test.
With respect to the DNA on the car – she had been to his property to photograph vehicles on dozens of occasions, so there was plenty of opportunity for his DNA to end up on her car. Further, there was plenty of opportunity for it to be planted. Finally, if you read the portion of the nephew’s interview with the cops where he says that Steven touched the car, the evidence is completely coached out of him, just like the rest of his evidence. You can get some witnesses to agree with whatever you say, it’s really not that difficult. An ethical lawyer (or cop) stops questioning when they realize that this has happened, recognizing that any of the evidence given will have absolutely no weight.
Thank you, GNAT. The documentary was utter propaganda for Avery’s defense. If it had been unbiased, I would have looked at both sides and then decided. Now, I lean more towards guilt, as I’ve seen other shows on Avery that presented BOTH sides, and it seemed to me Avery was guilty.
However, as someone with a Masters degree in Criminal Justice, I’ve learned the justice system can be wrong. Does he deserve a new trial? Maybe. But present ALL the evidence, not just certain pieces like the Netflix documentary did.
The eevidence from the car had missing links in the COC. And it was all very tidy. Like Theresa never allowed anyone or anything in her car and wore gloves inside it for most of her ownership. Where the blood was also made limited sense when aligned with the story of how the prosecutor claimed it happened.
Maya
Uncalled for. Take your own advice please.
GNAT
With respect to your opinions… Netflix along with the creator of Serial put out statements speaking to the bias. To sum they said all documentaries have a bias and they give their thoughts.
And yes the series was made with heavy help from th defense team as a last ditch effort having felt the odds were sacked against them by the justice system. And from evidence presented they appear correct in feeling that way. And let’s not forget cops that were not to be allowed alone on the property because avery was suing them for millions somehow got in and alone and found the key to her car where others had already looked and did not. That bias alone should have had the evidence never entered. It was entirely illegal.
Simply put, the lab, the way the evidence was handled, the actual evidence and how it was found? It was ruined from the start. Nothing was done correctly and that’s the 1st thing I jumped on in this. There was so much wrong none of it should have made it to court.
I wouldn’t have even signed off on it.
Detritus
Co-Sign your entire comment.
The Teresa Halbach ex boyfriend who hacked into her voicemail and deleted messages while she was missing, then was given free reign to search on Avery property by vengeful corrupt manitowic pd, is most likely who did it. Many people are saying the same thing. The ex bf is way creepier than Steven Avery.
BssyKat
Agree. That was weird how this was allowed to go on.
Wait, so you are worried about inherent bias in a documentary but not in a criminal trial?
BAM. Most correct comment I’ve seen on this.
Wait so you are worried about inherent bias in a documentary but not in a criminal trial?
I’m so glad these documentaries, and podcasts etc are being made about our justice system which is seriously f–ked. I had a personal experience which I won’t share here while no where near as serious showed me how easy it is to get railroaded by corrupt/lazy cops and end up in trouble for something that is totally false. I think there are many more innocent people in jail than anyone wants to think about.
I agree with you, but I don’t think he’s one of them.
I honestly don’t have an opinion on his case.
I don’t know if Avery did it or not but when the law enforcement system and legal system operate like it did in this case, we all lose. For that reason alone, I’m glad this documentary is out there and being noticed, and I hope Avery’s appeal succeeds.
I won’t even speak on Dassey – it’s all too tragic and common to play mind games with impressionable, young people in order to ensure results. Central Park 5, anyone?
@LB I agree with every last word you said.
Exactly.
I don’t live in the U.S. and have never seen the inside of a courtroom. But I do work in a big law firm and frankly, sometimes the incompetence of the courts scares the sh*t out of me. My boss has had a highly successful career, he’s nearing retirement. After a particularly weird f*ck up by a court I blurted “God, this job really makes me lose faith in our system.” and without missing a beat he said “Oh, I’ve lost that faith about 2 decades ago.” And this man WINS. A lot. I don’t even think it’s ill will, they are just horribly underfunded and in so many cases (not necessarily criminal law), judges decide on matters they barely grasp. Also, the “system” is made up of human beings. We tend to think of it terms of an abstract entity but really, the human factor – to me – is the biggest worry. We make mistakes. Big ones. And then we want to cover our a**es.
Your last two sentences sums this entire thing up in a nutshell.
I’m one of those that got sucked in and binged watched over the New Year weekend. It was difficult to watch but as it went on, prob about episode 5 I was hooked. Whether he is a killer or not, I would never want to be arrested and prosecuted in that county. The prosecutor is as sleazy – or worse since he is a professional and appeared to sext/stalk a domestic violence victim that he was prosecuting her abuser – is what really upset me. Even his voice is creepy.
I think the nephew sounds like – per the doc – he got conned into confessing to frame the uncle and is so mentally challenged he was clueless as to what was happening.
Not trying to make this a racist topic – because it absolutely is not – but I found it interesting that they focused on a blond/blue eyed white man (albeit very poor and uneducated). I think this solidifies the American justice system is skewed to those who have the money to hire a strong defense – regardless of color or background.
Agreed. We also watched it and my blood boiled. Yes, I found it disturbing that Steve abused animals and I understand that it’s a sign of a killer. However, the police department did highly unethical and borderline illegal investigation into this case. Firstly,the search warrant. They had a search warrant and they kept coming back to his home. You need a search warrant each time you go into someone’s house. One search warrant isn’t a free pass for whenever you want to look into someone’s house. Secondly,I was very disturbed by the interrogation of the nephew. I felt that he was bullied into the confession. He is mentally handicapped, he was held for hours. He didn’t know his rights and he was told they would help him if he confessed. They told him what to write in his confession. The forensic lab told the defense team that the testing was dodgy. All of this added up should at least give them a new trial.
The police department did local government in that town sounds like hell. Clearly,they have it out for this family. I think the justice department should get involved and investigate the hell out of the area. I also believe that police departments should be liable legally for what they did to this family and any terrible police work. Meaning jail time not just monetary compensation.
I hope Steve and his nephew get a new trial and then move the hell out of that county. They and that family will be forever harassed if they stay.
A wrongful prosecution is injustice for all parties involved.
I live close enough to where this happened to have followed it closely in real time. I remember the details of what was said then, and can’t even imagine watching this. Here’s a piece written by a writer I know and trust – it ran in our city magazine after the trial was over. http://www.milwaukeemag.com/2006/05/01/blood-simple/
I just read this and it’s a HIGHLY sensationalized and fictionalized take on the known facts and evidence. It reads like something commissioned by the prosecutor. You may trust this writer, but they’re obviously biased.
Curious as to where you see fiction. As I said, I followed the case while it was happening, and the facts of what happened match up. Clearly there’s description and color in here, but I can’t imagine this being any more “sensationalized” than the documentary, based on the descriptions I’ve been reading. I can’t bring myself to watch it.
I read a heavy bias too. And yes, it was sensationalized.
I’ve read the article, sone some unbias research looking on both sides to evenly weigh, and watched the series. The case was handled wrong and if the law was upheld this would never have gone to trial.
And yes, The prosecutors absolutely approve and request these types of stories. There’s little in the paper now that has no bias.
That’s not to say I feel Avery is guilty or innocent. Only that this trial and all the evidence was fudged to hell and back. And the prosecution/police are corrupt.
@cannibell
I see fiction whenever someone takes one possible narrative of a case and dresses it up with sordid details. Within the first few paragraphs, the author describes the SUV as ‘blood spattered’. This description calls to mind a bloody scene with the victim’s DNA all over the car. In reality, there was one small swipe of Avery’s blood on the steering column and another tiny bit somewhere in the trunk. It set the tone for the article, including a colorful, ‘fictionalized’ retelling of Halbach’s death, as determined by the prosecutor. I don’t fault the author, who wrote the article after Avery was found guilty and used artistic license to make it more dramatic, but I do fault anyone who reads one article and says ‘this is all I need to know’, when there’s so many people saying ‘something isn’t right here’.
I didn’t watch the documentary and go ‘oh, he’s innocent, that’s that’, because I knew I wasn’t seeing the whole picture. I DID watch the documentary and go ‘there was some shady shit going down with this arrest, prosecution and trial.’ and then I did some more research. I’ve concluded that while I don’t necessarily think Avery is innocent, I don’t think there was enough valid evidence to find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. His entire family, all of whom had access to the same junkyard he did, are suspect. His brothers and in-laws have violent histories with women, and Avery would have made an easy scapegoat. Two of his family members also lied on the stand, one later admitting it, and one being contradicted by a much more reliable witness. Halbach’s ex-boyfriend admitted to breaking into her voicemail and erasing a bunch of messages after her death. Someone was calling Halbach in the days leading up to her death in a stalkery way, possibly the ex-boyfriend, and apparently he had suspicious scratches on his hands after she disappeared.
The police in this case handled everything in a suspect way. Officers involved in Avery’s lawsuit snuck into Avery’s home after no one found any evidence and ‘found’ Halbrach’s keys, even though they were banned from the case due to their involvement in the lawsuit.
And then there’s the ‘crime scene’ itself. There was literally no blood found in Avery’s bed, or bedroom, or home, or garage. Yet the story is that Avery stabbed her in the bed, dragged her to the garage, and then shot her. But not a single speck of Halbrach’s DNA anywhere?
The nephew was clearly, horribly coerced. You can plainly see, in his ‘confession’ videos, the police officers telling him exactly what they want him to say, and he parrots it back. He’s definitely not a bright boy (he was in special ed classes in school), and you can tell, throughout the trials, that he merely says whatever he thinks people want him to say. His lawyer terribly misrepresented him, and it’s tragic. The judge repeatedly threw out valid evidence that would have helped Avery, and repeatedly allowed shady things from the prosecution. He was most definitely biased. 2 of the jurors were apparently connected to the police department that Avery had been suing. One of the jurors came forward after the trial and said that they ‘feared for their safety’ if they didn’t find Avery guilty. Another juror, who had to be excused, claimed that the jurors had already determined he was guilty long before hearing the evidence.
The point of the documentary is not that Avery is innocent. It’s very, very possible that he murdered this woman. The point is that he was not given a fair trial. His nephew was not given a fair trial. There was plenty of ‘reasonable doubt’, and the judge, jury, prosecutor, and the press ignored it.
This has always been the biggest thing for me: WHY, after being in prison for 18 years, massive settlement coming, would you do something so utterly heinous?
An argument could certainly be made that his time in prison triggered certain deviant behaviors, or that he felt himself invincible after being found innocent, that no one would dare come after him again.
I mean, realistically, you could ask the same thing of so many killers and/or rapists. “He had a wife and kids and a McMansion and a respectable job, why would he do something so heinous?”.
I don’t necessarily think he’s guilty, but it wouldn’t be unheard of for someone who ‘had it all’ to throw it away by committing an atrocious crime.
See – it’s strange. But the man isn’t all that bright, and he’s not new to abuse. Before I started watching it, I assumed that he was going to jail the second time for someone on the case being murdered – which made a little more sense to assume because he’d just been denied a huge payout not long after being released.
He was incredibly angry when in jail – by his own admission he was writing awful, violent letters to his wife at the time, he had a violent past, he continued to have a violent relationship with the new girlfriend – so I don’t think it’s especially ridiculous to think it’s possible.
He might have had a bunch of money, and his freedom – but if you’re a crappy person, you’re not magically just going to not be a crappy person because of new possessions. Is he guilty? I have no idea. And thanks to their horrible handling of the cases, if he is – he might get away with it in the long run.
When is there ever a good or justifiable reason for a woman to be raped and murdered? Many serial killers/rapists have what seem to be good lives but are doing these disgusting and violent things. I am not saying he’s guilt- but wondering what reason he has to kill someone Isn’t any kind of argument for his innocence. Disgusting people do disgusting things. He is an awful person and he may very well of killed her but he may not have. It’s a tragedy though that if he didn’t kill her that whoever did is getting away with it.
I am also wondering what people who think he is innocent happened? That someone who knew her killed her and used him as a scapegoat and the police jumped on the bandwagon? Or do people think the police murdered her to set him up? Or that her body was found by the police and then they used it to set him up? I am not being snarky-I am honestly curious.
@Chris
From what I’ve seen, there are several theories. One is that one of Avery’s brothers or nephews or some other family member killed her, and used Avery as a convenient scape-goat. A couple of his family members who testified against him lied on the stand, one fully recanting and one who was contradicted by a more reliable witness. They all also have nasty crime-filled pasts and a history of violence against women.
Another theory is that Halbrach’s ex-boyfriend did it. He admits to hacking into her voicemail and deleting several messages after she died, someone was apparently harassing her on the phone in the days leading up to her death, and he had some suspicious scratches on his hands after her death, when he was front and center during the search for her. Plus he came across as skeevy in interviews.
I’m sure there are people who think the police killed her. The department Avery was suing acted very sketchy for the entirety of the investigation, and it’s likely that they planted evidence.
The bottom line is not that Avery is most definitely 100% innocent, it’s that there’s plenty of reasonable doubt, enough to where he shouldn’t have been convicted.
@ Irene
Thanks for the reply. I haven’t watched the netflix documentary yet and am not sure if I will. The investigation and trial sound like a complete shit show. Justice wasn’t served for anyone. If he is truly guilty he should have been convicted with a fair trial and without this cloud of doubt. If he is innocent of this crime (despite how vial he may be) he and his nephew should not be in jail for it and the true perpetrator should be.
My husband watched part of it with me said, “I don’t have any legal observations to make about this other than it’s f**ked up, but this guy’s IQ is 70! And he had this, this, and this on his property, do they really think he’d just leave it all around or be smart enough to clean it up?” My husband is also a bank attorney, so his ability to discern between normal people and psychopaths probably isn’t that great.
It’s definitely worth another look by the courts. I get squeamish thinking of the ex-boyfriend and then I wonder, “Can we bring in a psychic???” because I’m that person.
Meh, Bundy started murdering again shortly after breaking out of prison. It’s not that strange.
This response was meant for @cannibell, sorry:
One of the themes of the documentary is how we judge a person based on media before they have a chance in court. The prosecution was slandering his name, as well as his family’s name, long before the case went to trial. Manitowoc county had a hand in painting the family as terrible before Steven Avery went to prison for the rape he didn’t commit. The defense was concerned (as they should have been) that the bias everyone would have heard through the media would affect his chances at getting a fair trial. Which, it did (it was amazing to me that they were denied the right to move the trial to a place where everyone wouldn’t have already heard about it, but also where there would have been no conflict of interest in terms of the civil suit!?!?) So your pointing to a media article, written by someone who has an outside opinion about the case, is ironic. Watch the doc. It doesn’t matter what any of us think about Avery. What matters is that the trial was biased and the “evidence” was either planted, coerced, fudged, or paid for. That’s what matters.
Ineffective assistance of counsel? For Steve Avery? Good luck with that argument. Brendan Dassey, on the other hand, that poor kid never stood a chance. It made me physically ill watching his smug little weaselly lawyer and investigator help ensure his conviction. That lawyer should have been disbarred.
I just read up on Brendan Dassey – it made me angry and sad. That kid is clearly mentally/intellectually challenged and he needs a good legal team as well or are they too busy throwing themselves at the Uncle cause he’s more famous. If anyone is the victim of a miscarriage of justice its Brendan.
Yes. I finally finished binge watching the documentary and I’m more disturbed by what happened with Brendan than Steven. Steven may or may not be guilty but I was completely shocked that Brendan got convicted.
I’m more outraged about the nephew. He should 100% get a new trial. How can police take a kid out of school, question him for hours without a lawyer or parent and feed him his responses…how can that be legal?? And don’t get me started on his lawyer with the Ken doll hairstyle who before he even met his client was talking to the press about a plea deal. Travesty of justice!!
+1000! The kid’s first lawyer was so obviously looking for his 10 seconds of fame to launch a political career. I think I read he is now the mayor of this town? After this debacle, who/how would he ever get elected?
Me too!!! He was a terrible lawyer who wasn’t trying to protect his client. That kid didn’t have a chance. It’s outrageous.
THIS. Brendan is the one I feel sorry for. When he kept asking his mom what ‘consistent’ met, my heart broke for the kid.
His former lawyer is scum.
Actually, it was “inconsistent.” But I agree with you.
I agree. I can’t stop thinking about Brendan. When I was 12 and beginning grade 7, I was pulled out of class by the principal and taken to an inner office, where 2 police officers, men, were waiting for me. I was then questioned for about an hour, alone. No parent, no lawyer, no teacher, just me in a chair at a table with the 2 officers standing. They were looking for my father who had taken off from custody a few weeks earlier and was on the run. I know the tremendous pressure he felt and the emotions that hit from all sides. I don’t want to say he lacked “defiance” but it was very plain that he lacked the ability to process and stand ground against an unbeatable force. To understand that even if the information they want is relevant or possibly helpful, they can’t do whatever they want to get it and treat you this way, you didn’t do anything wrong. To face this as a kid is pretty hard and I don’t think he stood a chance.
That lawyer was awful. Absolutely awful. I wouldn’t even call him a lawyer. Maybe pawn of the prosecution so he could be out of the casse and move onto his election hopes.
I think he did it but I think the police planted evidence to guarantee a conviction. The most important thing the documentary does is highlight the serious problems in our justice system. Has Dassey’s first lawyer been disbarred? That guy makes my blood boil. It Is hard to feel sorry for Avery himself, but his parents break my heart.
This is the scenario I’m believing more and more. If this is the truth, his conviction should be overturned, even if he is guilty. A corrupt system is more dangerous than Steven.
I am more concerned about when BRANDON is going to get justice? Get a new legal team? I fully support Steven getting a new (unbiased and fair) trial because what happened was a travesty of justice.
I personally think there’s every chance Steven DID kill her but we’ll never know for certain because of the seriously screwed up investigation against him. It could just as likely be she committed suicide/had an accident/was killed by someone else and the police framed Steven. Or, he could have done it and still shouldn’t be in jail based on that investigation, clear frame-up and trial. But Brandon was clearly an innocent and the injustice there makes my soul hurt.
Sidenote- can we NOT compare every disgusting human being to a pit bull? As a pit bull rescuer I literally grimace and then get angry every time I see unhinged people’s opinions and actions being ‘like a pit bull’.
It’s a little outrageous for him to say he got inadequate legal representation. It seemed that his two lawyers pulled out all stops. Avery’s fatal flaw was to sue & return to live in the same location, as his earlier counsel suggested.
You see that argument all the time in appeals of jury decisions. Because juries don’t give reasons, there are only a limited number of arguments that you can make to overturn their decisions (it’s hard to say they got it wrong when you have no idea what evidence they believed/did not believe and how much weight they gave it). Inadequate legal counsel is one of the most common grounds of appeal after a jury verdict. Counsel expects it and most likely would not be offended by it – it is the strategy of throwing everything at the wall in your appeal and hoping something sticks.
I thought the only redeeming factor of the whole series was Avery’s defense attorneys. They were awesome as was his civil suit attorneys.
The comparison between Avery’s defense attorneys (paid well) vs. the kid’s state appointed defense attorney and his investigator was so telling.
I want to know when that kid is going to get a fancy new appeals legal team – he’s the only innocent one in this whole mess. Too many people focusing on the Uncle – he’s been almost forgotten.
From what I’m reading online (so take that FWIW), he is saying that about his first court-appointed attorneys, not the two guys seen through the doc.
Even so, that would not be relevant, because he had two good attorneys after them. The issue is the way this case was managed by the county. The media conferences that were always given, which do little to encourage a fair trial and so on. Even if he had Strang et al from the beginning, the county sheriffs/prosecutors were undermining the fairness of the trial from the very beginning of the investigation. The problem in the US is that -from what I understand (I’m in Australia) – is that sheriffs and prosecutors are elected, and so there is a political element to this as well or political motivation to convict, which does introduce bias or investigations are commenced with an additional motive – for sheriffs to maintain a conviction rate. So they approach investigations with a biased view. In other common law based jurisdictions (England, Australia, etc) around the world this is not the case, police are not elected, prosecutors are not elected.
I’m not at all convinced of Avery’s innocence, but I nearly had an aneurysm when the prosecutor said, “reasonable doubt is for innocent people.” WTF, seriously?!
Yes, exactly this!
That had FMORC and I yelling at the tv.
Honestly, the person I feel the most for is Brendan Dassey, his nephew! I feel so much sympathy for him and I feel like he was taken advantage of by those two cops who coerced that confession from him and his first lawyer. I feel like the more I read about Steven Avery, the less sympathy I feel for him! He’s a violent, despicable human being who committed assault and rape and I read somewhere that he used to molest his nephews, including Brendan! He’s vile, and I don’t care if he spends his life in prison.
This is such a polarizing case. To me, him burning a cat when he was younger doesn’t mean that he shouldn’t get a fair trial for Teresa murder.
It’s werid, because this case reminded me of the OJ Simpson case. (My knowledge of this case is only based on waching the trial on youtube and articles that i read), He wasn’t found guilty for his wife’s and Ron’s murder so years later when he got in trouble, when he received the sentence for the robbery case, I read stories about how a lot of people felt that the sentence made up for him “getting away with murder.” This isn’t the way the justice system (is supposed to) work. It doesn’t benefit anyone.
The police department went after Steven with a vengeance for the rape. Meanwhile, the real rapist was running free raping other women while Steven sat in prison and the police knew, they knew that the way they put the case together wasn’t above board.
Did Steven kill Teresa? I really don’t know, only Steven and God knows the answer to that. Him having done awful things in his past shouldn’t negate him receiving a fair trial. There are just so many unanswered questions. Way too many for a verdict of life in prison. Realistically, it could happen to anyone.
Nobody here has said “he burned a cat so he doesn’t deserve a fair trial”
People are saying that he burned a cat, had a history of violence – which continued after his release- and that he’s a completely unsympathetic character – but the system messed up big time. So despite him being a huge piece of excrement, he got screwed. He deserved a fair trial from the start. But he doesn’t deserve everyone’s sympathy for every part of his life because of it.
This exactly 100% every single word of it.
Yes there are. There’s a couple comments on here basically saying that because of what he did to the cat that he should burn in hell, and it doesn’t matter if he’s guilty, don’t care blah blah blah
@Erinn
The town and especially the PD are biased against the Avery family and especially Steven, that’s why they ignored the real rapist and arrest/charged him with the crime, for kicks and giggles.
So I’m sorry, people citing the so-called anecdotal tales of Steven’s past behavior (excluding the 18 yrs he was locked up??!) supplied by the corrupt nefarious police department that happily left the real rapist free to rape, to say that Stephen’s a bad person, makes no sense it all.
Uh…no. I’m pretty sure you (and at least one other here) said that you don’t care if he’s innocent or not, that you hope he rots in jail, and that you just couldn’t feel sorry for him because of what he did to the cat. IF you’re an American, as a person living within this system, you should absolutely care. People should not be convicted of a crime based on their past misdeeds. Further, much of the hearsay against Avery regarding past violence was started by people working for the county. That alone should cause anyone to give those statements the side-eye.
I think the documentary does a great job at showing how messed up our justice system is. I mean, Casey Anthony had so much linking her to her daughter’s death, and yet she walks free. There isn’t anything linking Avery directly to a murder – the DNA evidence, even if it wasn’t planted, doesn’t connect the two of them. No combined DNA was found. In fact, the lack of it is very concerning. The whole killing of a cat thing is deeply troubling, but it doesn’t justify prison, especially for something else that you didn’t do. One wrong act doesn’t mean that you get to be punished and blamed for everything else the rest of your life…that’s exactly what the prosecution and media for this case wanted.
Also, while we shouldn’t dismiss or forget the pain of the Halbach family, we have to admit that we have no idea how she died. Unless you want to take the inconsistent ramblings of a mentally challenged and coerced teenager (none of which has been supported by anything found), all we have is some of her blood in her SUV and a questionable tooth (the bones were not able to be linked). For all we know, she could have fallen, hit her head, died instantly, and the police framed the rest. I’m NOT saying that is what happened. Just saying – we really don’t know.
I don’t know if Avery is guilty or not. He definitely isn’t the best person. His family isn’t great (but thank goodness we don’t get judged by our families!). But his trial was very unfair. Too many mistakes, too many crossovers, too many people sticking their hands into a situation that they should have known better to not involve themselves (IMO, the sheriffs department made this harder on themselves by getting involved when they weren’t supposed to). Everyone deserves a fair trial. Everyone. And Brendon….don’t even get me started on how his lawyers and the system screwed that kid. I don’t believe he is involved for a minute.
I completely agree, and you said all of it much more eloquently than I could!
Don’t get judged by our families? Of course we often do! Where do you think all the age-old stories come from of tribal/familial feuds?
I’m talking in a court of law, our family members personal issues don’t (shouldn’t) come into play. As seen in this case, family issues are glued onto other family members, even if it isn’t their problem, which just helps to vilify a person.
Honestly as a person that has sat on several juries, I would never let my case go to a jury if possible. Even as an innocent person. Every single jury I’ve sat on, there is that one idiot that says “lets decide this so we can’t get out of here”. Decisions are often based on emotion versus fact. Some jurors dwell on non-matters when deciding and won’t move on, etc… Even when the judge gives perfection instructions, it doesn’t mean the jurors will understand the instructions. Actually serving on a jry has changed my mind hugely about our court system. The state usually has the advantage. One of the men that sat on on my juries, said “if they’re here its because they’re probably guilty”. Think a lot of people have that belief.
I’ve hated jury duty. Sat twice and have been called into the pool under a dozen times. Most have their minds made up before a word is said. There’s a bias and once they figure out which factors they favor facts can get tossed out of the window.
Lots won’t though. They want to know and place in their opinion based on the evidence and their own conclusions they draw outside of that.
He may have done it, but I’m not convinced. His nephew was definitely railroaded, though. I don’t know how that’s allowed to stand.
I am appalled at how many commenters here are okay with him being locked up for this crime, even if he’s innocent of it, because he’s a dirtbag and guilty of other crimes. 100% not the way our justice system is supposed to work, and frankly some of you sound like dirty movie cops wherein the ends justify the means.
@betsy, I’m appalled by a lot of the reactions here too – I think it shows how easy it is for us as humans to be guided by bias rather than by evidence.
Exactly both of you.
That is not what commenter are saying though…they don’t care what happens, one way or the other, about Avery.
Well, they sure are very passionate about the topic considering they dont care.
Zaid
They care. As long as Avery isn’t released and is left to rot away behind bars they don’t care. If he’s freed, that will matter and they will be upset.
Lol! That’s the point! They SHOULD care! If this can happen to one person, it could happen to any of us!
I hope everyone is aware that the documentary purposefully left out huge amounts of evidence showing he committed the crime.
In my opinion, the guy definitely did it. However, there wasn’t enough non-circumstantial evidence to properly convict him. He shouldn’t ever have gone to prison for it. Unfortunate, but that’s the way the cookie has to crumble in our justice system.
As far as I’m aware, the documentary left out both pro-defense and pro-prosecutor “evidence” – ALL of which is circumstantial.
I’m going to stop here and just say i’m likely going to agree with all your comments here 😀
You’re level headed and on it.
Most evidence is circumstantial. Including things like finding parts of Theresa’s burned body on Avery’s property.
Thank you, Robin! Kills me how people misunderstand direct (eyewitness or video tape) and circumstantial evidence (everything else).
I believe things were done improperly. The Manitowac County deputies should not have been involved in the investigation, and the trial should have been moved or the jury brought in from elsewhere. But to believe all the evidence was planted requires such a suspension of disbelief I can’t go there. Two independent units would have had to be trying simultaneously to frame Steve Avery – both the county and the real killer(s).
Avery’s attorneys did the best they could with what they were given. The judge let everything in (short of naming potential third party suspects, which I understand he couldn’t permit based on a very restrictive Wisconsin law), and the jury weighed it all and gave their verdict. Short of new evidence or jury malfeasance, I don’t see him getting a new trial.
Yes, 100% agree, Size Does Matter. I am an attorney and for what its worth I don’t see him getting a new trial, either.
Yeah cuz having porn in your home equals being a murderer. Why are people paying attention to this vile prosecutor who also happens to be a sexual predator again?
The prosecutor was dumb. Those texts!!! He’s a vile POS.
Do I think he was completely innocent? Not particularly. That said, I do think the trial was botched on some levels and – based on the documentary – it does seem that there was enough ‘reasonable doubt’ to lead to an acquittal. Here’s the problem: this is based on what I’ve seen from the documentary, which is called “Making a Murderer”. The very title leads viewers to believe that he is innocent, so from the beginning we are presented with a case that looks like the judicial system did him wrong and it was nothing more than vindictiveness by the county that led to his conviction. However, it leaves out a lot of information on both sides. My main concern here is the ‘mob mentality’ that often follows with this type of media coverage. Do we have right to protest or ask more questions? Absolutely, because the judicial system has gotten it wrong before and that’s where organizations like The Innocent Project come in. But, in this case, he’s exhausted his appeals and he’s been denied every time…and I’m wary of the idea that special rights or new processes be given to a person simply because there was a spotlight shined on his case and people yelled a little louder.
I think he is not guilty – as in, he should never have been convicted for the murder based on the trial he received, which contained almost zero physical (and non-debatable) evidence linking him to the crime and relied wholly on bias and false confessions. That is not to say he didn’t commit the crime itself though.
The thing that sways me to believing he was innocent is how hard he worked on his own counsel after he used up all his appeals, and his right to a lawyer. For a man with an IQ as low as Avery’s, and such a stark lack of education, to work so hard reading up on law books to file a motion for a retrial must have been incredibly hard. I just can’t see a guilty man going to that much effort, although I’m aware I am biased towards innocence through watching the documentary.
What we can all agree on, however, is how awful this must be for Teresa’s family; to have no conclusive or concrete knowledge about what happened to your sister, daughter, friend and have to live with the fact that the police completely ignored most of the likely suspects in female homicide (e.g. ex-boyfriend, friends, roommate).
“a man imprisoned for 18 years for a sexual assault he didn’t commit”.
nope . correct statement: a man imprisoned for 18 years for a sexual assault he was framed for.
the first episode shows this was no mistake, stupidity or even incompetence. the police framed him spite 22 witness accounting where he was, paper trail, coerced the victim on the wrong identification and let a rapist free to rape again (as he did).
the rapist confessed in 95 and they still maneuvered and his defense didn’t get this info.
the are policemen that say they don’t believe the DNA and that he is still guilty of the rape. state failed to make the police and DA accountable for their mistakes the first time.
they put him 18 years on prison based on a grudge. would the police let him get 36 million dollars, bankrupt the county and blow up their careers ? they had way more in line this time.
they framed him again.
the case is so inconsistent: no motive, no timeline, illegal search, coerced confession, botched DNA analysis, crime scene mishandling, biased judge, failed to investigate the victim’s close circle of people, etc. the state didn’t have a case and they don’t have it.
even if you believe the documentary is biased, you can’t overlook the overall evidence the police failed to investigate it properly and the state had no case.
even the family victim is WTF at times during trial
I hope their new team can help him and bring those corrupted officers down. I hope he gets 100 millions dollars out of WI.
1. Gov. Scott Walker is a lying, opportunistic moron. Anything he says cannot be trusted.
2. Why is it so hard to fathom how inherently corrupt our criminal “justice” system is – both the police and the courts? There is a VAST history to prove it so. The people in it who are not inherently corrupt are complicit and just go along with the program to protect their careers. Very few deviate.
3. It seems that instead of believing that the people with the most power would do something so hideous to a poor, uneducated, inarticulate, and messed-up man, who was in the position of exposing their corruption and being paid a large sum for his decade(s) of being unjustly imprisoned, it is easier to believe that these documentarians are just biased. Boggles the mind …
I think it stinks to high heaven. The nephew didn’t stand a chance. And where was the blood in the trailer? I think you had a county facing a massive lawsuit payout and some gung ho cops with a grudge.
Well, they had a long standing grudge since the Sherriffs lady friend didn’t like Avery. The town didn’t like the family and sought to rid themselves of them in any way possible. Even how the actual rapist of the wrongfully convicted crime admitted the rape and the police station upon hearing of this dismissed it to keep him behind bars. It’s pure corruption!
And that’s just early on scratching the surface. The whole thing makes me sick.
To add, I saw an interview with the lady who was raped in the first case. She said that she was receiving disturbing phone calls that could have only been from her assailant because of details they provided. She said after Avery was in jail the phone calls continued. She contacted the police because she feared her assailant was watching her and her house and the wrong person was in jail. The police did nothing.
What a perfect example of media power. Take me, for instance (please!) No, I did NOT watch this..I only saw the name and the “everyone is watching “buzz. On this alone, I assumed that this was a person who had been railroaded and now was stuck in jail while they worked to get him out. My sister on the other hand, watched this whole thing, she came away with”the legal side was bungled”. Not that he is innocent or guilty, just that the case was mishandled. But I feel like the makers slanted this so much. That whole family appears to be a DNA sh!t stew, to say the least. And that cat incident is enough for me to be fine with him in jail. Is he a murderer of humans? Not sure. Should he be in jail for it? Not if he didn’t kill her. The cat on the other hand is dead, and we all know many killers start with animals. Yep, I am biased.
make a favor to yourself and watch it, then comment
Also not informed. An uninformed bias is what we have here.
Watch the show.
Why are you even commenting if you haven’t watched the documentary? Ugh. How is being ignorant better than being biased? Most of the comments I’ve read online from people who actually DID watch it are not 100% sure if Avery is innocent or not. Most people think he’s a sketchy guy. What they do agree on is that he did not receive a fair trial, and neither did his nephew.
I’m not American but I am appalled by how many people have completely missed the point of this series. It is not about whether Avery is guilty or not – it is about an unjust and corrupt justice system. “Avery killed a cat so let him rot in jail” is what I see many saying. So what the fuck did Brendan Dassey do to deserve to rot in jail? A 16-year-old boy with a 70 IQ given abysmal legal counsel and manipulated into a confession. It is a travesty.
I seriously hope most of the commenters here never sit on a jury. Just keep your superficial judgments to things like Jennifer Aniston’s hair and not about anything of any real importance. The world will thank you for it.
Bias: a noun. A prejudice. “He has bias against me.”
Biased: an adjective. Having or showing bias or prejudice. “He is biased.”
If he’s innocent, doesn’t that mean the real killer is still out there? Oh yeah…..forgot about the CAT. This whole comment thread is insanity.
I kinda tried to make the same point. Just not executed as well. You are so fkn awesome, with that comment!
Nuff said!
Thank. You.
Thank you. SO tired of seeing “bias” used for “biased” ….
Ugh. We stopping at “bias/biased” or you doing the whole thread?
No one forgot about the cat. He was convisted and served of a 1 time incident. Never repeated. And if it was the prosecution would have claimed so.
And insanity yes. That people are forming opinions about a person spending his life in jail not because of the evidence, but because they don’t like him and would rather have a murder go free than let him out. Because that’s rational and not insanity.
I’m not sure what your first sentence is asking. ???
I also think we’re on the same page with the cat. My guess is you’ve misunderstood my use of sarcasm. But I truly cannot follow what you’ve typed. Now you’ve got me curious. Apologies if English is not your first language.
I would prefer that the majority of you not ever be on jury of my peers…scary! Why don’t you ladies and gents stick to ripping apart celebrities and their wardrobes and stay out of real life! Disgusting that your prejudices ooze over into other peoples lives. Most of you would have been great pickins for the prosecution.
When I was 6 or so I used a magnifying glass to fry a few ants, now put me in prison and throw away the keys!
Yes because killing a couple ants as a child is the exact same thing as a 20-year-old adult soaking a cat in gasoline and burning it alive.
I don’t know if this makes me a terrible person, but I tend to judge that incident with a ‘he’s a drunk with friends and also has low IQ’, doesnt mean Id spend time with him, but yeah.
Besides, he already payed for that crime, and he sounded regretful during the documentary about the incident. But Im real naive so he may be a genius liar.
I agree that killing a cat is abhorrent. I agree that they’ve linked killers with animal slayings in their youth. I don’t agree that anyone who has killed an animal will then grow to be a murderer. And I don’t think that prior incidents should determine even an opinion about whether Avery committed this crime. That’s part of the reason our justice system doesn’t work. Beyond the fact that these cops were incredibly biased and likely tampered with all the “evidence” the jury was mostly comprised of people who jumped to conclusions based on Avery’s public persona. That is a travesty.
@laura is I was a family member I would hate if biased documentarians showed up with their very biased beliefs & sketched over facts to free my sister/childs murderer. Ask yourself this, why did they leave the hardcore evidence out of this documentary and pretty much smooth over what really happened to the cat? If he was innocent, why would they not include all of the evidence against him?
For time sake, flow, and because so much evidence was corrupted.
There was a lot to cover and they touched on a lot of it.
ALSO, his innocense is not the primary here. It’s a corrupt justice system. People are forgetting this left and right.
The next thing the justice system should consider: Should cat-lovers be permitted to join a jury?
Let me be clear since it seems my comment was only partially read.Disgusted at his various criminal acts including the cat.Unnerved by the bungled law enforcement /prosecution /lab work etc.To my observation that many murderers begin with animals I’m not backing down from that.Does that mean he did it? Nope. Does that mean I want him in jail for a crime he didn’t commit? Nope.
(And your proper usage of ‘biased’ warmed my heart. The grammatical slaughter of other commenters made my teeth hurt. Apologies if my comment seemed ‘in answer’ to yours. I’m just a general raving lunatic and was talking to the wall, mostly).
My post was more of a temperature read on the comments section as a whole.
Most killers that start by killing animals don’t start with killing just one, though, and it isn’t something they typically do socially. They usually torture, kill, and dismember animals in secret and most future killers start at very young ages with this kind of behavior. So I don’t want to condemn a man as a sociopath on one isolated incident.
Frankly, sometimes I’m disturbed about how some animal lovers put animal’s lives over that of humans. Granted, plenty of humans are assholes, but still.
@HeySandy, I agree.
I value the lives of animals, but I also find it disturbing that so many people will empathize with animals without giving a human’s life a second thought. It’s very easy to project feelings onto animals. Showing empathy for a human who doesn’t look or sound or think like you is much harder. Sure, animals are innocent and voiceless. But some humans also don’t start life with half a chance.
LOL! Not all of us cat lovers are as irrational and idiotic as some of the ones in this thread.
I mean, the cat thing was fucked up but let’s keep in mind he was young, drunk, and his IQ is around 70. Country folk don’t usually view killing animals the same way we do… especially not drunk borderline mentally retarded country folk like Steven Avery.
As many things that made me cringe reading your comment I don’t disagree. There’s a cultural difference and an educational difference.
There’s not the same understanding even on an empathetic levvel when we go into mental capablities. Like how a person who loves animals, but overfeeds isn’t aware of how that’s abuse. What is obvious to us it a far reach for them. And because that is animal abuse does not mean the woman in my town who over feeds her cats and dogs has it in her to harm people. Although… she might toss a cat at me over the railroad tracks.
No, the nephew’s IQ is supposedly 70, I think.
Both of their IQs were reported as being around 70. It’s not an exact science by any means but it was obvious both were intellectually challenged and were disadvantaged by that. A smarter more articulate defendant might have had a different outcome. I would guess that the degree of Impairment was more obvious in Brendan because he was a teenager and was particularly overwhelmed and inhibited by the situation he was in. Steven, as we know, had experienced the judicial system before.
No worries, KRI. My comment was disgust at the “I don’t care if he’s guilty or not” gang
Emotions sway people into black and white statements, but those statements come across as absurd when discussing the serious issues this case raises with the prosecutor’s office in Manitowoc, WI. We all know there are many shades of dirtball, cat killing, auto trading, woman assaulting, evidence tampering, blood planting, license plate peeping, corrupt copping gray, no?
I’m frightened of some of you at this point. It’s clear that the county was hell bent on seeing him rot in jail. Any information you’re getting from Manitowoc is going to be biased. So if he DID do the things some of you are claiming, we’ll probably never know. You may not like him, but that doesn’t mean he committed the crime. And some of you seem more than ready to convict him because of what he did to a cat. Of course I think that violence against animals is deplorable, but that doesn’t mean anything in respect to this trial. Period.