I actually cringed while reading about this story. I want to like Jessica Chastain so much. I want to believe she is thoughtful, interesting, talented and woke. She might be all of those things and maybe she just had a bad moment. Or maybe someone close to her can get her to just stop for a moment and actually listen and read when people are trying to tell her. I guess the background on this is probably that “conservatives” are trying to make “Antifa” and “Violent Antifa” into something. It’s like their reaction to being called neo-Nazis and supporters of violent white supremacy – they point to the few people on “the other side” who are like “let’s punch Nazis in their Nazi faces.” This has caused some kind of stupid crisis among some liberals, as some people are like “non-violence is the way to go at all times, we would never punch Nazis in their faces.” Enter Jessica Chastain, who posted this several days ago:
'Returning violence for violence multiplies violence' I'm here for changing the world through peaceful protests, calling my reps, and VOTING pic.twitter.com/QAW1DASxZ3
— Jessica Chastain (@jes_chastain) August 29, 2017
Which… sure. I’m all for voting, I’m all for peaceful protests, I’m all for non-violence. But it does come across as patronizing. Someone took Jessica to task on Twitter:
if we're gonna go with MLK jr, pic.twitter.com/xgcqeuR65b
— yavin ✨ (@yavin_iv) August 29, 2017
To which she responded:
If the color of my skin is going to cause you to generalize, perhaps you shd look back over whether or not I've been silent to injustice
— Jessica Chastain (@jes_chastain) August 29, 2017
Cringe. That’s basically like Chastain telling a disenfranchised person, “stop judging me because of my white privilege, that’s the real crime!” Again, it comes across as patronizing. She kept going too:
Nonviolent protest has NOTHING to do with self defence. Please look at the last article I posted. Data shows that nonviolence works better –
— Jessica Chastain (@jes_chastain) August 29, 2017
-to fight oppression. It's in the science. Non violent resistance is 2x more likely to topple governments. It's in the facts.
— Jessica Chastain (@jes_chastain) August 29, 2017
Jessica ended up posting this video, below, about how much she’s learned this week and she’s “listening” now. I feel bad for her a little bit – everyone steps in it sometimes, but the way to handle it might have been to issue an actual written statement involving the words “I’m sorry I was talking over people of color and telling them how to behave.”
🌻 Im here for you & Im listening 🌻 pic.twitter.com/2ZblYPK84R
— Jessica Chastain (@jes_chastain) September 1, 2017
Photos courtesy of Getty.
I do think there is an alt-left. But just like the alt-right they’re made up of a very small, very loud group of radicalized (mostly) white (mostly) men who are angry that the world doesn’t seem to be bending to their will quite as easily anymore. I hope Jessica gets that now.
No, there is no such thing as the “alt-left.” Please stop to think more crtitically about the names or terms we use. The “alt-right” is really white supremacists. Unless we start calling them for what they are, we’re never going to address the real problems. As such, the alt-left is a bs term that Trump and his followers decided to adopt. It’s a term meant to villify and condemn the people opposing white supremacists and neo-Nazis.
Word.
yeah, plus I’m pretty sure the “alt-right” started calling itself that to distract from the fact that they’re white supremacists!
critical thinking is dying in this country. People are just parroting insults/talking points without thinking about what these words actually MEAN.
I’m honestly trying not to get mad here but as a WOC French nationalist in the U.S I’m sick of people telling me to get more educated on subjects but then proving they don’t understand my point and aren’t interested in learning.
Antifa is not the alt-left. White bros are. I’ve been calling them that for years. POC HAVE BEEN CALLING THEM THIS FOR YEARS. Men who claim they’re on our side but prove time and time again they are just as racist as the rest of them.
I’m reading my comment back and do feel I said this but maybe not as well as I could have.
Thank you. I’m tired of explaining this to people.
@Cleo thanks for clarifying. I know exactly who you’re talking about – I think they’re mostly called “Bernie bros” nowadays. Angry young white dudes who were willing to sabotage the election and vote for Trump or not at all once their favorite candidate dropped out, who aren’t looking out for POC interests at all, just their own.
I had never heard “alt-left” until recently, so thank you for pointing out that POC have been calling them that for years.
Thanks Olive.
No. Look, I hate Bernie Bros as much as everyone else but these guys aren’t congregating in public spaces with rifles and military gear chanting “Jews will not replace us”.
Are there some Bernie Bros that are misogynistic AF? Undoubtedly. But PLEASE let us not use a term coined by the Right to somehow say that they are the same as torch-wielding Nazis.
And this is the problem with using the term “Alt-Left” as Magnolia explained above–it creates a false equivalence. Nazis are Nazi and Bernie bros are Bernie Bros. Not two sides of the same coin by any stretch of the imagination.
Give me a break. There is no alt-left and the vast majority of Bernie Sanders supporters are not Bernie Bros. Stop associating progressives who demand positive change such as Medicare for All with Neo-Nazis. FFS.
There is no such thing as the “alt left.” That is a term the alt right made up to draw a moral equivalency between white supremacist and those who oppose them. There is no organization like the Klan, Breitbart, or Richard Spencer’s National Policy Institute on the left. There are no leaders calling for the violent overthrow of society as it is.
Antifa has no leader, no staff, no organization, and no money. It is a concept, not a doctrine.
No…but I’m not saying it’s Antifa? I’m saying it’s white men who don’t care about women and minorities. There is an extreme left but it’s not who Jessica and white people think it is.
Please try to read comments more carefully. Thank you.
@cleo The term “alt right” refers to an extremist doctrine that goes beyond the typical right wing agenda. To create an “alt left” equivalency you would have a far left faction whose doctrine is a welfare state in which wealth is equally distributed, corporations would have to serve a public good, and voting would be mandatory.
Using “alt left” to describe Bernie Bros is misuse of the term.
Well, there is certainly an “extreme left” that is entirely way too comfortable with using violence and intimidation to get others to bend to their will. They should NOT get a pass at all.
So there are two Megan’s here. And while I hate to feed trolls, since you are using my name, I guess I have to.
You comment is total BS. There is not an extreme left that uses violence to get others to bend to their will. There have been a handful of incidents in which counter protestors brawled with white supremacists.
The left never burnt a cross in anyone’s front yard. The left never marched at night with torches shouting “Jews won’t replace us.” No Democratic president ever called on the police to use unnecessary force when putting suspects into a car. And No Black Lives Matters protestors ever walked down the street with shields, clubs and AK-47s.
To compare the two is a deliberate falsehood perpetuated by white people feel who feel threatened by others’ equality,
Thank you, (Lefty) Megan.
“there is certainly an “extreme left” that is entirely way too comfortable with using violence and intimidation to get others to bend to their will.”
Those aren’t people on the left. Those are anarchists. They show up at any kind of rally to cause destruction. They do not represent the left.
“There is no such thing as the ‘alt left.'”
(1) Yes, there is. It’s called communism (not to be confused with socialism) and it killed just as many, if not more, innocent people in history than fascism did.
(2) There are those in the far-left who spew antisemitism and claim that it’s strictly anti-Zionist. I’m not talking about Chomsky-level discourse; I’m talking about Yves Engler. While I don’t know how organized they are, they do exist.
@Kwy
It isn’t just the far left. The left is just as complicit.
I agree with this characterization of the alt left and alt right so much. But one huge difference is that the alt-left (Antifa for example) is more on the fringes than the alt-right (Milo, Bannon, Seb Gorka, etc). I had never even heard of Antifa until I saw some Trumpists tweeting about the things they did in Berkeley. But wow the rightwing is obsessed with them and their supposed (non) power. They are hysterical and fearful of Antifa – convinced that Soros and the Clintons are funding them. Meh.
RE: Jessica
She got defensive over that MLK tweet back to her but she didn’t need to. That quote about white moderates did not contradict anything she was espousing. She’s not like the white moderates of MLK’s day telling people to slow it down, keep the peace, wait your turn, change will happen in time, don’t defend yourself from physical violence, etc. She was strictly talking about engaging in violent tactics.
I wonder if the person who was tweeting her assumed that Antifa was protecting people who were physically being attacked by Neo-Nazis? I think that has happened (I know Cornel West thinks they saved him in Charlottesville). But they aren’t a defensive group in general. They perpetrate violence My impression is that Antifa feels the best way to stop Neo-Nazis is to violently crush them into submission.
Anyway I think Jessica is very well meaning. I like her and I can’t fault her for her cringey comments. She’s human. I step in it all the time. I just feel like if you aren’t making mistakes you aren’t doing shit. You aren’t evolving, you aren’t taking risks. It would be nice if we didn’t cancel people every single time they make a mistake. JMO.
Edited to add: I see people are taking issue with the term “alt-left” Forget the term. What I’m saying is that Antifa is not a powerful group. They don’t have the same influence on left leaning politics that Bannon’s dressed up Nazis have on right leaning politics. But they are a propaganda tool of the right wing now.
But that’s why your critique of Antifa doesn’t really give the full picture. They are a VERY loosely-organized group. Anyone can kind of jump in and attend a protest/march at any point. They don’t have the resources and funding nor the organizational attributes that the “Alt Right” has.
“But they aren’t a defensive group in general.”
They are literally the definition of a defensive group. Do they at times destroy property to make a point? Yes. Do they sometimes use sticks for protection? Yes. But for the most part they are not out there harming people, but escorting and protecting. I saw it with my very own eyes when I went to the march in Boston a couple weeks ago. Antifa was embedded in the crowd and often jumped in to surround black folks when cops got too close or to escort protestors to safety if people started to get a bit rowdy. Antifa exists because Nazis and fascist groups exist. Violence as a last resort or to defend is part of their platform, but assaulting and attacking certain groups in our society for “funsies” is not.
Thanks for sharing what you witnessed with your own eyes @Kitten. I never said they engaged in violence for “funsies” My impression was they engaged in violence because they felt it was the only way to stop the Nazis. That is, Neo-Nazis can only be stopped by crushing them into submission.
It’s interesting how they’re portrayed in the media: The rightwingers think the mainstream media ignores “Antifa violence” while I suspect some people on the left feel Antifa is being MIS-characterized as violent. Frankly, I never had the impression they were *by definition* a defensive group that passively waited for the Neo Nazis to act. I was under the impression they were very proactive and aggressive and would try to stop the speech and assembly of Neo Nazis if possible. Moreover, I’ve seen several tweets from mainstream journalists claiming Antifa have attacked journalists. (I’m just trying to explain why I had this different impression of them than you just shared).
Bottom line, I believe what you’re saying. At the same time, I suspect the fact they *are* a loosely affiliated group and people *can* jump in and claim to be one of them has lead to them having this violent reputation.
@ Kitten: The problem with the Antif as a very loosly organized group is, that every body can jump in. And while they have started as an defensive group, at least in my city they have escalated to an agressive stance.
When the german version of the alt-right, calling themselves concerned citizens tried to demonstrate in my hometown, they refused to take past in the meetings before, when the police planed the demonstration route for the alt right and the demonstration protesting against the alt-right, to keep the groups apart. They claimed, working with the police to prevent a clash of the two demonstrations, would mean, working for the facist state.
At least here, the attack everything as facist, that does not follow their ideology, and thats not a defensive group anymore.
A was part of the organisation comitee, organizing the protests against Pegida (our alt-right) and the called me rasist, because I do not want to bring the whole system down.
Jessica, is that you?
I wish! LOL
This might be the case in the U.S too, I’m not sure, but in Australia feminist writers refer to this kind of man as a ‘bro-cialist’
And I was going to watch Miss Sloane tonight. Jessica, you are all the way cancelled.
What does that even mean? It’s makes people sound like bratty 13 year olds
Try Urban Dictionary but you already know, don’t you.
@Ruth – I agree. It’s such a infantile response. And the way it’s so regularly of late trotted out on here for anyone who takes/makes a public mis-step is becoming extremely tedious.
Jessica appears to accept her lack of awareness and will now presumably move forward with more sensitivity/humility = a positive outcome.
Absolutely no need for anyone with an ounce of intelligence/objectivity to be ‘cancelling’ her on this basis.
If someone is personally offended by someone, shouldn’t they be allowed to personally “cancel” them within their own lives? A was just saying that she was done with Miss Chastain personally. Why is she obligated to put up with her if she doesn’t feel like it? It’s really not that big of a deal.
And as for the “absolutely no need” comment, given the issue in this istuation (racially insensitive remarks or privilege-induced tone deafness) had it occurred to you that perhaps POC are just extremely tired of having to put of with the high volume of people who are trying to police the way they feel about issues regarding their humanity and how to ‘properly’ express their anger? Saying A has “absolutely no” reason to personally decide she has had it is dismissive and rude. This isn’t “canceling” Taylor Swift because you don’t like her snake-like ways or “cancelling” the Kardashian-Jenners because you’re tired of seeing them all over the place.
Maybe A has just had it with white women being clueless AF?
@ A- Cancel away, girl.
Is this a Jeffrey Star post? Kim is that you?
The irony that the op is offended because someone had the nerve to be offended is making me giggle. Thought policing is so last year.
@Enough Already
Does that mean we don’t thought police certificates after all? Damn
@magnoliarose
It’s okay. Thought police have excellent state benefits. And we get to wear bodycams!
If everyone who is well meaning gets pilloried when they try to speak up, eventually no one will speak up at all.
…Or maybe she could have thought a bit more before she spoke up and silenced the people she was White Woman Helping?
Kate
Oz is missing a steaw man. Jessica was not pillaried for speaking up. She was, hopefully, reminded that she is not a charioteer running over the sensibilities and thoughts of people who have been hurting far longer than she has been helping.
@Kate
I can only speak about my own reaction.
She was nearly saying there are problems “on both sides”. I have no patience for that argument. It didn’t help to learn that the Dreamers are going to be thrown out of the country yesterday. It is just so heartless and cruel. I didn’t want to hear about nonviolence and Pollyanna nonsense.
But Jessica apologized and is open to learning. In my opinion, there is no need to push away someone who shares the same politics. She didn’t elect 45 or even voted for him, it seems pointless to nurse outrage for something like this when there are real things to worry about.
Shutting down conversation is part of the reason we are in this mess in the first place and it won’t get better unless that changes. At least she is willing to fight a Nazi if someone needed help. lol
The culture of outrage and SJWs is exhausting and successfully drowns out all logic and common sense.
Maybe we (black women) are sick of educating clueless as fuck white “allies” because they are too up their own asses to stop taking shit personally? It is not about you. Full stop.
If you LISTEN more than you attempt tone deaf platitudes, you might learn something.
But why should we as black women educate anyone and get them to listen?
For me it all goes back to economics and being independent from having to rely on anyone in terms of jobs. I wish we would talk more about creating businesses and supporting each other.
That’s what the Jews did in the 60s. They didn’t March or plead, they created their own banks and businesses and hired each other.
They didn’t beg the wasps to listen. They did them basically and f everyone else.
Cringey as f*uc but at least it seems that she is willing to listen. Not gonna hold it against her until the end of time.
Yeah. Not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We can’t cancel allies every single time they say or do something cringe-y (unless it becomes a clear pattern of behavior). People need room to wake up to their own privilege.
Turtle, I love that expression “people need room to wake up to their own privilege”
+1
I am so tired of the progressive “church.” If you aren’t 100% pure, you can’t pray with us. She posted something that was tone deaf, but she is not wrong. Nonviolent protest is more effective than violent protest. She realized her mistake and got a little more woke.
+1000
Yes, I feel like the practice of calling people out is actually pretty unhelpful. When it’s clear that someone cares and is trying, but is also coming to the conversation with their own prejudices and privileges, there has to be a way to address them and let them know your concerns that doesn’t alienate them. Ultimately, no group is a monolith and we all have differing opinions and ideas, but we are more powerful if join forces. Right?
Disagree. Calling people out is mandatory. The time for kindly explaining has passed. If as white people we are too fragile to endure the criticism then we probably aren’t meant to be allies.
I’m hear for the no-nonsense radicals because I think that’s what’s required to fight in today’s political climate.
At least she showed humility and a willingness to learn. Progress?
Kitten, I understand that perspective and I think you’re mostly right, but I also don’t think everyone has to fight in the same way to be effective. Not everyone is a no-nonsense radical, but they might still want to be on your team if you let them. I’d rather have them there with me than not engaged at all (or actively fighting against me). I think there is room for different approaches if we are all working toward the same goal.
@ Tealily-Yes I completely agree. I wasn’t saying everyone should fight the same way (although I can see how I unwittingly insinuated as much) and ITA that we should find our voice and how we feel that we can most effectively contribute, and pursue that.
And hey, it’s not like I’m out there with a scarf on my face or fighting with police officers or anything like that. But I just meant to say that I think the no-nonsense folks are important. It’s important to have people presenting what may seem like extreme notions in order to push the collective conscience further to the left.
I don’t condone violence, but I see the importance of a radical approach. I think there’s a place for that right now, if that makes any sense.
@Kitten, yes it does.
Depends on what you are protesting. These are not normal times.
A woman was murdered by a Nazi, on American soil.
These are not normal protests, not anymore. Forget the theory that a civil war is or might be coming to the USA. It’s already here.
The USA is no different than Venezuela. You cannot trust your own government. Your president is working to systematically destroy any and all means of recourse. Some GOP are trying to put term limits on Mueller. Trump himself said he is not filling WH or Gov’t positions- he said to “streamline” the gov’t. Dont be fooled.
GOP are complicit. General Kelly is complicit.
No one is stopping him.
Mueller is working as fast as he can- pray when he gets there it will even matter.
@Archie No, the US is not like Venezuela. Trump’s administration may be corrupt, but just look at Houston. We see a fully functioning government in which politicians from both parties at the federal, state, and local levels are working cooperatively to protect citizens.
Trump is leaving positions open because no one will accept his nomination. Getting tangled up with Trump means career suicide and a six figure legal bill.
@ Megan
I hope you’re right, I really do. You read the signs more optimistically than I am, I think.
She sounds naive. It is hard to understand racism if you are white but im sure its easier for women to get closer to that feeling cos we get a lot of shit based on gender.
I am against violence but you have to fight fire with fire. That cop who was fired said ‘we only shot black people’. That is reality of USA in 21st century
Why do white people always gotta quote MLK when they’re trying to out-woke you?
Yikes to her comments. Non-violent protests are great in theory, but as we’ve seen you will always have people from the other side pointing the finger as to why non-violent protests are really at fault. Look what happened to BLM, many people on the right consider them a terrorist group, and no matter how non-violent their protest are, that’s the narrative that fits their views. We can’t win either way.
Not to mention, even MLK acknowledged that he was one end of a spectrum, and that the movement needed a Malcolm X as much as it needed him. He was in many ways a figurehead and he knew it. He knew what messages should come from him and what should come from someone else.
Plus MLK has stated that riots are the language of the unheard (said relating to those in the 1960s): http://time.com/3838515/baltimore-riots-language-unheard-quote/
He’s more nuanced regarding violence than the Peace Peace Love Love guy that white people think of him as.
I’m a white person, but yes he absolutely is.
@ Marty-many people on the LEFT consider BLM a terrorist group and same with Antifa.
The only way that their minds will be changed is by BLM becoming more and more visible.
I saw such a positive response in Boston after the march–so many people commending BLM and thanking them for their extraordinary organization and planning. Out of all the various protest groups that have emerged in the past ten years, I think that BLM has the best chance to really change hearts and minds. They are truly the abolitionists of our time.
Good points, Kitten. It’s just very frustrating to me when we have Democratic leaders condemning Antifa the same way they do Nazis, it feeds into the false equivalency you talked about above.
Why should oppressed groups have to defend the way in which they protect themselves? People are people, not everyone that experiences racism and bigotry are going to react in the same way, why do we expect them to?
@Marty, yes yes yes!
They try to equate BLM and The Black Panthers. It has to do with the FBI declaring that in order to keep black people “in their place”.
https://genius.com/Federal-bureau-of-investigation-cointelpro-long-range-goals-and-prevention-of-a-black-messiah-annotated
It is eery. But it is what they are doing to BLM. It is why the right kept referring to Obama as Messiah.
You know what’s worse than a KKK member / racist / “alt-right” member? White allies aka Becca’s and Beckies. Why? Because at least you know where those people stand whereas white allies are the worst because you don’t know where they truly stand. They tell you to your face that they’re “woke” and are against racism but in reality, they’ll let causal racism in conversations slide, ignore the fact that 53% of their fellow white women voted for Trump and transfer their children to a nicer schools district or to charter schools instead of supporting their local school districts if there are too many colored children there all the while spouting about how they’re just trying to do their best for their child. You wanna be an ally, Chastain and etc? Read and financially support black activists, place your body between that of a police officers and a black protestors, vote for policies that help POC and stop posting stupid shit on Twitter and expecting praise for doing so damned little aka listening to others. The information is out there – it’s up to you all to look it up. Black activists and POC don’t owe you their time or emotional labor in order to educate you.
Exactly. Very well said!!
Agreed. The MLK quote that the person responded back with was perfect.
Eh, bad move on her behalf. I’m willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, though. She’s one of the good ones imo and doesn’t deserve to be cancelled. Hopefully she’s truly willing to sit back and listen.
Sooner or later they all show their true face.
While she does “step in it” a little bit here, i think her overall message of nonviolence is on point. the important thing is that when someone missteps, we allow them to understand and improve rather than knee jerk cancelling them. there has to be room for someone to learn, especially if they are genuinely concerned and a decent person. this obviously does not apply to nazis, and hateful people, of course. if we stomp on everyone for every single thing they do rather than approach from a point of dialogue, we are only making things worse. this can be really hard to do but its ultimately necessary if our goal is to all do better.
Well said cate
And another well said from me, Cate, particularly, as you say, when what we know of the person concerned is generally positive. Condemn the misstep, not the person.
This recent practice of ‘cancelling’ someone on the basis of a misstep when that misstep is subsequently acknowledged and apologised for is so counter-productive and divisive.
exactly, we have to look at the whole, not the part. and acknowledging the misstep as you say is so critical here. none of us are perfect but i can respect those who listen to the criticism and try to understand and do better because most don’t. they are entirely unapologetic and approach it defensively rather than openly. i’m all for canceling people who have no remorse or empathy. she doesn’t appear to be one of them though. i don’t want to alienate helpful allies since we already have enough people on the wrong side as it is.
It’s a choice. For example, a well-meaning white person may denounce Chastain’s choices here and still support her overall positive stance. A person of color may be triggered as hell and cancel Chastain altogether. Are you really sure it’s fair or wise to tell people which response is appropriate?
that is a valid point. i guess i just wonder what margin do we grant people to make mistakes while being well meaning? does it have to be all or nothing in every case? its not simple and no one can tell you how to feel, i agree with that. i feel the same way when people defend actors who work with men who have a history of abusing women and committing sexual assault as if its no big deal. i hear your point.
@Enough Already – “A person of color may be triggered as hell and cancel Chastain altogether.”
I absolutely understand that, and the entirely valid lack of patience/tolerance of the entitled stupidity that drives it, but all I’m saying is that the only way we all can intelligently move this fucked up world forward positively is if we approach that entitled stupidity with education rather than cancellation.
Chastain deserves no applause, for sure. But at least she’s now, thanks to this, having to really rethink her thinking. And that’s the positive we need to be moving forward with.
I agree with you, Skylark. better to educate than cancel when the person is not speaking from a place of hate, and they demonstrate the ability to learn and improve.
Skylark
I personally think your approach is optimal but if someone lacks the opportunity, privilege or inclination to operate in that headspace I will not detract from the real problem by telling them to do better. I don’t have the right. There are no perfect victims. If every person of color denounced Chastain that would not stop her crusade for social justice if her heart were truly in the right place. People of color do not have to grin and bear it for the “greater good”. No no no. We *are* the greater good people like Chastain say they want to advocate for. Our feelings, support, criticisms, praise and reactions have validity without proscription. If Chastain and others like her can not see this they need to reflect on their understanding of advocacy.
Very true, cate.
I’m sick of people telling me to call my reps. I’ve sent letters, emails, signed petitions, and on and on and on. It’s disconcerting, frustrating and seems futile; but alas, keep on keeping on.
Yeah. All you ever get back is a form email spouting whatever their stance already was. They never seem to actually respond to what their constituency is saying. That said, I’ma keep pestering.
I’ve heard that one phone call is equivalent to a hundred letters. Emailing, writing letters, tweeting at them are all easily ignored or addressed with form responses. Actually calling and making them listen to you is a lot more effective because their aides are inconvenienced by it.
I for one am on her side, even in the areas where I’m in the minority or in disadvantage. I prefer non-violent ways in every situation except immediete self-defence.
So I don’t see a controversy here? She has a certain opinion, expressed it, got called out for her privilege, got riled up when she was confronted, and then admitted she could have expressed herself better. I wish all intra-liberal interactions went like this, actually.
Also: I am not the Cleo that commented above. Awkward.
Anything related to Nazis must be stopped at any cost. We all saw what happened. We all should know the history, and read the signs with accuracy.
It has to be stopped, dead in it’s tracks, now. Do the ends justify the means? With regard to the rapidly rising Nazi propaganda in the US (and the world)? Absolutely. No question.
I’m not violent. I’m grateful I live in Canada and we are more of a peace seeking, help people, country. But if Nazi rose again, and it is, we have to use any means to stop it.
I think it’s her privilege that she thinks these are normal times, that the protests are normal protests against the government. I guess she didn’t see that the US police forces can now use military gear. I guess she missed the point of Ferguson, or Sandra Bland. Or the young black girl in a bikini being sat on by a police officer. I guess she just missed the fracking point.
Did you really just say that the ends justify the means? Said every dictator ever.
@Angel are you sticking up for Nazis? The end justified the means in WW2 when we defeated them. These neo-Nazis aren’t special. They need to be defeated in the same way we did decades ago.
Thanks Olive, for understanding what I was saying.
So tired of people trying to create controversy for the sake of it.
I was VERY specific when I stated the ends justify the means to defeat the rise of Nazi.
Agree with you Archie 100%.
If anyone has doubts go to the Holocaust museum or website.
It didn’t look like it would end the way it did from the start. But what we are experiencing is how it started.
Bannon and his ilk would like nothing more than to have another go and wipe us off forever. Do not mistake that.
Right now it is Muslims and Latinos. Quietly Sessions is stripping black people of their rights. He canceled Harriet Tubman’s picture to replace bigot Andrew Jackson on our money. That seems small but it is not.
First, they try to erase progress through minor laws. Then stop programs that help minorities. Discard anything that would signal minorities are equal or deserve honor. Then like Sessions wanted collect names to threaten and harass. Make bigotry ok. Stack courts and government with people who are willing to disregard laws and follow through with continued marginalization. Don’t punish people who commit hate crimes. Don’t give minorities protection. Goal: Make them disappear.
When you’re afraid to leave your house, go to school or get in a car because you might be MURDERED that day and you have that same fear for your family and friends and it’s been that way for centuries then you can run your mouth on Twitter, Jessica. Until then STFU.
“Talks overs”
There’s an interesting documentary on Netflix right now called “Accidental Courtesy” about Daryl Dixon. He’s a a black man, a professional musician who goes around trying to befriend Klan members, talk to them, and he’s gotten around 25 of them to leave the Klan. They give him their robes. Some are still in the Klan, yet talk about this black man being their very good friend. Towards the end of the film, he has a confrontation with several young members of Black Lives Matter in Baltimore, who do not agree with his tactics at all, are very unhappy with him, and bring up some really good points to him. It seemed like the filmmaker was trying to make a moral equivalency with those BLM guys and one particularly angry Klansman/preacher he met, which made me a little uncomfortable, but you can’t deny Dixon’s tactics are not making an impact.
I just watched it last night and I’m still thinking about it. Worth checking out IMO!
I watched the same documentary only it was on a PBS station. I had mixed feelings about Dixon’s motives. It came across to me that while he may have been trying to open a genuine dialogue with those people but at the same time, it came across to me as giving a rubber stamp on those white supremacist values. I guess I didn’t see his efforts as productive if he was receiving a token of appreciation from the KKK even though he got people to leave the Klan.
I’m conflicted about him too. I know he’s just one person doing this willingly, but I don’t like his idea that POC should have to sit down and listen to white supremacists’ viewpoints in order to have theirs heard. This is a terribly racist country; I think we all know what their viewpoint is, because it’s amplified by people in power, especially now with this president!! At the same time, it makes sense, and I kept thinking if he’s willing to do this as a black man, why can’t white liberals sit down with white supremacists and talk to them? Why is he having to do this hard work of essentially proving his HUMANITY while white liberals proudly talk about how they’ve cut themselves off from their Trump-loving relatives? White people created this; we should be the ones solving this, not relying on a black guy to sacrifice his own comfort and safety to meet with the Klan.
@ Olive-your comment is EVERY. F*CKING. THING.
FWIW, there was a (I think it was Vox?) story making the rounds on FB about a white woman who is a former Klan member who changed her ways after prison. She travels to rallies where the Klan congregates and tries to offer counseling and a way out for Klan members. Honestly, a former Klan member is probably the best in terms of outreach because they are more trusting of their own, even if she’s no longer part of the group.
“I don’t like his idea that POC should have to sit down and listen to white supremacists’ viewpoints in order to have theirs heard. This is a terribly racist country; I think we all know what their viewpoint is, because it’s amplified by people in power, especially now with this president!” This. I’ll have to look at that documentary though.
His mindset equates to asking rape victims to sit with their rapists to understand why they felt compelled to rape. I don’t need to sit with my abusers to understand why they choose to hurt me continuously for many generations.
Lmfao. The data shows? Ummm yeah, so what policies didn’t work leading up to WW2. You can’t talk your way out of people who have been raised to respond to violence. A? For effort?
Rhetoric and action fomenting violence in the U.S. actually does benefit someone — Putin. I have found the Hamilton68 Dashboard helpful lately, just as a check to see what conversations are being pushed by Russian operatives and bots. Last week, analysis of activity shows that:
“Unrest in the United States was front and center for Russian influence operations on Twitter this week, as users in the network sought to amplify alt-right alarmism about the left-wing Antifa (short for anti-fascist) movement. ”
http://dashboard.securingdemocracy.org/
+1
Man, she really comes across as if she thinks she knows better than people who actually experience these things firsthand.
Plus that “apology” video comes across as more performative than sincere. She’s not actually saying anything, the whole “I see you and I hear you” is condescending as hell, and good lord the crying. She’s 40, you’d think she knows how to own her mistakes and communicate to people that she owned her mistakes by now.
I like her, but I think you are 100% right.
She’s 100% right though. Crazy that she felt she had to apologise.
She is not right. She is white, you are probably mixing those two things up. Just like Jessica does.
lol
Violence is not the answer. She is right.
I am black, we cannot afford enemies and anymore hatred towards us.
We are a minority in this country. 12% of the population.
What we need to talk about is economics. Starting businesses, creating jobs and opportunities for ourselves.
😂😂
…says There will be no opportunities because they are going to make sure there aren’t. There will be businesses to start because they will make it ok to discriminate and banks won’t loan.
We are past that.
Disagree.
No, “we” aren’t past that.
Stop speaking for us. Anytime we (actual black people) speak of taking responsibility and leaving the defeatist attitude behind, here comes the condescending white liberal to tell us what to do.
We can create our own banks (we’ve done it before), we can practice group economics (we’ve done it before), we can support each other no matter how lowly you think of us, we are capable.
I really am sick of you WL. MLK and Malcolm X were right about your kind.
@ Maggie
I am glad to know “my kind” make you sick.
Are you unaware what Nazis mean to Jewish people? Did you miss the symbolism and hate language directed at us at Charlottesville? Did you read about the NeoNazi’s standing outside of a temple threatening the people inside observing Shabbat, and they had to sneak out of the back.
White skin has never stopped us from terrorized or discriminated against for thousands of years and it doesn’t now. The Neo Nazi’s dream is to wipe us off the face of the earth. Finish the job Hitler started. We are Steve Bannon’s top priority (actual Jewish people)
White skin doesn’t save anyone in the LGBTQ community either.
Interesting that you made this about race and only thought her thoughts were about you. Intersectional bigotry.
I said “we” because I thought we were on the same side. Guess I was wrong.
She’s wrong. However, in her skin, she believes she’s right above those living with reality.
@ Sara, Uhmmm…NO Jessica is not “100% right”. Of course you also commented that Kim Kardashian was “tan” in that thread last week so………….
You know, it’s frustrating to keep seeing these liberal white people with their initial knee jerk reaction to being confronted with the reality of racism. They’re so enclosed in a bubble, so clueless about the realities of the lives of POC. Some just don’t get it that whiteness is like the default of our society, that it is centuries long pervasive institution and system in which they can move about freely without question.
I am not willing to cancel Jessica because I think the backlash to her condescending comments are causing some reflection on her part. She seems to want to listen and be an ally, which is what POC need right now. Just please first listen and learn.
Agreed, though I’m bothered by the hypocrisy of it all. Had it been something involving sexism and the celebrity responded the way she did, that celebrity would have been justifiably dragged. He’ll, she would have been dragging the person, too!
Good point, OG. I think more people here would have been angry with her. And I also agree that Jessica would have been dragging a man talking about sexism like that. 100%
I see that more and more: White women loving to say “white men are trash” but when you point something out that white women do its “NOT ALL WHITE WOMEN”. And you sit there with an open mouth, being in awe of this little self awareness.
“The USA is now driven by violence”
Now? Have you ever seen the news? Specifically all those lovely wars you guys started?
The US was founded on violence, Native Americans genocide and Transatlantic slavery and white supremacy. Violence isn’t new in any way.
I’m so confused. I look at footage and only see white people protesting but somehow it is black people being violent? Where are the black people? Certainly not on the streets.
Please call it what it is, white alt righters racist/nazis and white liberals/whatever fighting each other.
This has nothing to do with black people, only white liberals chanting black lives matter and stirring up animosity towards black people.
Leave us out of it. We are 12% of the population and can’t afford this craziness.
BLM is an organisation funded by George Soros for his own agenda.
Anytime media gives attention to something that should be suspicious enough.
When it started it was an innocent group of people fighting police brutality and they hardly got any mention….then when an outsider came in and infiltrated suddenly dailymail reports on it daily, again, to stir up hatred and animosity towards black people.
I’m sick of it. I told every black person I know, stay out of it! Do not go out and protest, they will zoom in on your face and make you the face of the opposition.
what’s your Plan B?
What do you mean?
If things get out of hand I will move to another country. I am in a position where I can do so easily. It’s funny because so many of my black girlfriends have emigrated, I’m not going to lie it is tempting to pack up and leave.
I don’t believe anyone should stay where they are the scapegoat, punching bag and stepping stone for every group.
No place in this world is utopia but there are certainly places in this world that are much kinder to my kin.
@AG
The best laugh I have had all day. Snark supreme my friend.
Oh the snark! Ha ha ha. Because that has worked so well for you this far.
Keep being condescending and you’ll be losing a lot more of us, from all sides.
**winks at Magnolia**
Ugh, you have a lot to say about jessica but you are just as bad as her, if not worse.
well, violence has worked for the right so far.
You speak of property damage by the left? while you speak nothing of the countless deaths the right is responsible for- if not directly then through policy, the NRA, military gear now for the police.
Who, exactly, is inciting violence?
The “fine people”, that’s who.
I’m so confused. I look at footage and only see white people protesting but somehow it is black people being violent? Where are the black people? Certainly not on the streets.
Please call it what it is, white alt righters racist/nazis and white liberals/whatever fighting each other.
This has nothing to do with black people, only white liberals chanting black lives matter and stirring up animosity towards black people.
Leave us out of it. We are 12% of the population and can’t afford this craziness.
BLM is an organisation funded by George Soros for his own agenda.
Anytime media gives attention to something that should be suspicious enough.
When it started it was an innocent group of people fighting police brutality and they hardly got any mention….then when an outsider came in and infiltrated suddenly dailymail reports on it daily, again, to stir up hatred and animosity towards black people.
I’m sick of it. I told every black person I know, stay out of it! Do not go out and protest, they will zoom in on your face and make you the face of the opposition.
Violence has worked since America’s theft, um, founding.
Wow. All the crap heaped on Jessica for quoting MLK. After all, his message of non-violence got black folks nowhere, didn’t it? Let’s ask Rep. Lewis and the Congressional Black Caucus about that, shall we?
Cleo and Olive have it right. The alt-left refers to BernieBros (privileged angry white boys who do a lot of mansplaining to Clinton and Kamala supporters and telling PoC that income equality is the answer to racism and that’s why they shouldn’t vote for anyone but Bernie even if it means we get Trump), as well as anarchists and even some actual communists (the latter two groups are the violent ones).
Can we please stop using the term “Bernie Bros”? Sanders has repeatedly told his die hard followers who went third party to get over themselves and begged them to vote Clinton, and they didn’t listen. That’s not on him. I hate seeing his name consistently dragged in with them.
I have tried to tell people the same thing. It was a combination of rabid white guys but they weren’t going for Trump that was a lie by Russia and Trump’s people.
The percentage of actual real Bernie Bros was very small but very loud. Mixed in were shills and bots and social media psychological warfare. It has been exaggerated to the extreme. No one who voted for Bernie would have ever voted for Trump. Look it up there are stories all over the internet about. It was a lie.
If Bernie is smeared then it divides the left so they can keep power.
He was a civil rights activist in the 60s for crying out loud.
“He was a civil rights activist in the 60s for crying out loud.”
There is no need to exaggerate.
Bernie is accomplished enough without all the extra.
BTW, the left is already divided.
Learn how to listen. The left is already divided and not because of bernie
Seconding Cleo’s comments.
The Bernie Bros. term makes a very, very, very small segment of Sanders’s support seem like his entire base. I supported Sanders’s in the primary – as did many of my friends and family – and all of us voted for Clinton in the general (I even did some volunteer work for her campaign). I attended a talk Bernie did in LA in late November 2016, and the crowd there was representative of LA: diverse. Every person I talked to had voted for Clinton in the general and was still in shock. When, during Sanders’s talk, two or three Bernie Bros. tried to shout something about Clinton, Sanders not only shut them down but the entire crowded of several hundred booed them.
And frankly, I’m not going to criticize people who voted third party. I disagreed with them, but it’s their right to vote how they see fit. The people who deserve criticism are those who didn’t bother to vote.
I know you mean well but you can’t ask that of people who have lived in a terrorist country for over 200 years. I am tired of tip toeing around the false narrative about America.
This is a violent country founded on racism and genocide. It has never stopped.
Look, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I think “talked over” is the wrong choice of words for what happened. Jessica tweeted X, the other person tweeted Y, and Jessica replied – awkwardly, but it was a reply and not an interruption. Let’s save the outrage for people who actually deserve it.
Also, this is a good time to once again plug John Lewis’s three-part graphic novel, March.
Internet forums are rife with people just itching to virtue signal. It is what it is.
I agree with Jessica when it comes to one thing.
Violence is not the answer.
If we can stop short of characterizing certain famous white people as “woke” then maybe we won’t be so disappointed by their ignorant and self-satisfied commentary. “Wokeness” is a fallacy of political correctness. Social progress is a continuum, and there is no bright line of awakening.
These days, to evaluate someone’s character, I just wait to see what they have to say about Jews and indigenous peoples. That tells me all I need to know. Somehow these seem to be the most hated peoples in nationalist movements. Maybe it’s because the Jewish diaspora and the local natives are always an enemy against which an invader can rally a multi-racial colonial militia to exterminate. I’ve observed that a lot of not-so-obvious Trump supporters eventually come around to some kind of antisemitic or Islamophobic rhetoric as a way of testing my ideological position.
If you wonder why Trump’s base is content ignore Trump’s incompetence, trust his motivations, and blame the media for daring to investigate the president, I think the explanation lies in their extreme xenophobia against Jews and Muslims and overall distaste for integrated neighborhoods. They know that Trump is one of them. They’ll trust him to support their long-term interests, because they understand that it’s a white supremacist strategic vision, no matter how ineffectual or nonsensical at a tactical level. It’s easier for them to tolerate cognitive dissonance at a policy level than to repudiate nationalist rhetoric when it panders to their fundamental fears.
Also– the black-clad activists that people are trying to label and explain are as anonymous as klansmen. Someone said they were white males??? Very few white males are committed to “smash the state”. Probably the only thing these anarchists have in common is they tend to be highly educated, because the universities are where Marxism and anarchism and activism persist in western culture. These individuals are loosely organized, very smart, and generally ‘radicalized’. No, you can’t call this an “alt-left”… most are leftists but there’s nothing alternative about their politics. They may as well be Bolsheviks by the behavior.
Did she just say she loves me…..? I’m sorry but I checked the hollywood rulebook and it’s quite clear that any video of an actor holding back the tears is 100%…. acting. Fail.
I don’t think Jessica Chastain, as naive as she is, is the enemy. Also, she’s not the oppressor nor is she the oppressed either. Getting angry at her for a Twitter comment is a serious waste of time.
It’s also not good that Antifa is committing acts of violence here in Berkeley for no good reason. It allows the conservatives to equate the left and the right as both being ” equally violent.” That’s a lie which too many people buy into. Basically, violence should only be a last resort. Our best bet in defeating Trump is getting all the non-voters who lean left to SHOW UP TO THE POLLS. Without that, we don’t have a shot in hell.
It’s how the right and Trumo work, though. Divide people up and they divide up the vote. The right always votes the party line But, it’s the left that quibbles over Hillary “being too much of an establishment candidate” and I need to “vote my conscience.” More of that attitude and we’re sunk.
Feels to me like she’s right. The quote from MLK Jr is sound.
It’s just that she’s white, that’s the problem.
She’s walking a thin line here. I love her and I’m sure she means well but she’s being so extra and overdramatic.
I don’t buy into the alt-left fiction, but there are fringe violent leftists. They aren’t nearly on the same level as the KKK, but I would never go out of my way to defend them.
“many sides . . .. . .. . many sides”
White people and (mis/ab)using MLK quotes with no understanding of who he was and what he was really about.
White people and talking over oppressed people.
White people and being more upset about being criticized than about the error of their ways.
EXHAUSTING!
I never understand why people argue back with others on social media, if Jessica’d just let the comment from the person calling her out stand and not had to engage in a huffy response she wouldn’t now be in hot water. You shared your opinion, Jessica, someone shared their’s back, don’t respond and turn it into a thing (because honestly there’s almost no such thing as reasoned discourse on social media), you don’t NEED to have the last word (because then the last word you have will inevitably be you apologizing).
@ Shelley, YES.
I find it amazing how “well-meaning” white people, in this violative climate, where Black people and other POC are targeted predominantly, use MLK (ha!) quotes as reasoning AND out of context, when he was extremely vocal about white moderates, and his tune definitely started to change leading up to his murder.
Basically,
*DO NOT ASK US TO COMPOSE OURSELVES WHEN THERE IS A GUN AIMED AT OUR TEMPLES. WE WILL FIGHT BACK.*
This was attempted in the 60s.
All of the PEACEFUL were murdered.
Anyone, who tells you to wait on your freedoms, as they enjoy their own should not be respected, because subconsciously, they do not respect your life.
@Tammy. Truth! Everything thing that you said above. Tired of the MLK quoting, the you should handle it this way, I know better when it’s not my experience and don’t truly affect me talking. I could literally feel my blood pressure go up reading the some of these tone deaf, clueless, fragility laden comments. I endured and get to yours and see this:
“Anyone, who tells you to wait on your freedoms, as they enjoy their own should not be respected, because subconsciously, they do not respect your life.”
ALL.OF.THE.HAND.CLAPS
@Tammy @Redsole Agreed!
@Redsole @Jams Cheers, love. XX