Ethan Hawke: Winona Ryder in the 1990s was what Taylor Swift is today

Vanity Fair does this excellent series called “Scene Selection.” They put an actor on camera and play clips of their films or TV shows and just get the actor to riff on those projects or their costars. Obviously, Ethan Hawke is excellent at this kind of thing. This is his natural habitat, and he would love to conduct every interview this way. The man loves to talk about his costars, and he loves to talk about art. Ethan’s Scene Selection video is great – he talked at length about Texas, Phillip Seymour Hoffman, Denzel Washington and Winona Ryder. What he said about Winona was especially accurate.

“If you care about Texas, you care about Tommy Lee Jones,” Ethan Hawke says of his onscreen father in season two of The Lowdown, FX’s neo-noir crime comedy series. The Lone Star State native has cultivated a warm reverence for many of his costars across 40 years in film and TV, as Hawke shares in the latest installment of Vanity Fair’s Scene Selection.

Watching Denzel Washington improvise in Hawke’s first “proper Hollywood movie,” the 2001 police drama Training Day, “was like watching Eric Clapton with a guitar or Miles Davis with a trumpet. It was just staggering.” And acting in Sidney Lumet’s final movie, Before the Devil Knows You’re Dead (2007), opposite Philip Seymour Hoffman, who died of an accidental drug overdose in 2014, offered a bittersweet glimpse into an unrealized future. Says Hawke, “You know, I thought I would have him to pal around with the rest of my life.”

As for his role in the 1994 coming-of-age romance Reality Bites, Hawke credits costar Winona Ryder with getting him on board. “Not enough has been said about Winona Ryder’s impact on other people’s careers. Winona Ryder was extremely successful at a young age. She was, at the time period that we did this, you gotta think what Taylor Swift is to right now. I mean, Winona Ryder was it,” says Hawke, who attended Swift’s Madison Square Garden wedding to Travis Kelce after starring in the 2024 music video for her song “Fortnight.”

“She was cool, all her movies were smart and interesting—Heathers, Beetlejuice, Age of Innocence with Scorsese, Mermaids,” Hawke continues. “Everything she did was a hit, smart, irreverent, punk. She was really, really cool. And she greenlit this movie. Because she had seen this obscure show called The Ben Stiller Show, which she thought was incredibly funny, and she thought he should be directing movies…. It was Winona’s belief in Ben and the script that made this movie happen.”

That would be Reality Bites costar Ben Stiller, who also made his feature directorial debut with the film. Hawke now considers Stiller to be “one of the best directors of my generation,” but they may have been on different pages as younger actors. “We would do 10,000 takes of his performance and, like, one of mine,” Hawke recalls. “He was completely disinterested in my performance and obsessed with his own, which was extremely irritating.”

Hawke says he and Stiller can find humor in their experience now—“If Ben were here, he would giggle, laugh, and tease me right back,” Hawke tells VF. “But it was true.”

[From Vanity Fair]

I totally agree with him about Winona and her cultural significance in the 1990s. He’s 100% correct that she was seen as basically the coolest and most punk-rock person out there, a real artist with integrity. Plus, so many girls and women wanted Winona’s whole look – the choppy hairstyle, the wide eyes, the delicate features. I still remember being obsessed with Winona’s iconic 1994 Rolling Stone cover and how it just encapsulated everything about the 1990s, about beauty and about coolness. If anything, I think Winona, in her heyday, was a bigger deal than Taylor Swift (although Taylor’s queen-bee cultural status has lasted much longer than Winona’s).

Here’s the full video – Ethan talks about Training Day and working with Denzel first, and then around the 4:45-mark, he talks about Reality Bites and Winona.

Photos courtesy of Avalon Red, Cover Images. Screencaps courtesy of Vanity Fair’s video.

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35 Responses to “Ethan Hawke: Winona Ryder in the 1990s was what Taylor Swift is today”

  1. CatGotMyTongue says:

    Winona has always been a rockstar.

    Protip: the less hair you have, the bigger your eyes look. I would love to have her cut, but the maintenance would be hell.

  2. Chiron says:

    Lol no. She wasn’t .

    • Susan says:

      Funny, @Chiron, I was coming here to say the same thing. Was she the IT girl for a lot of people and very popular? Yes, absolutely. Extremely popular. I think a better comparison of her might be Jennifer Lawrence in her hey day. I can’t think of someone comparable today but Taylor, love her or hate her, is in a different league. (Disclaimer: I am Swift-neutral. I like some of her music, not all, I didn’t even fathom going to a concert). That concert alone was a cultural phenomenon that Winona never encapsulated.

      • Lens says:

        Came here to say the same thing! The difference between an actor and a musician and the impact they can have as pop icons is huge. Yes Winona was popular and the epitome of cool girl in the 90s (along with Gwyneth -what a great picture you dug up) but Taylor is the cultural phenomenon, and I’m not any kind of Swiftie, at all.

      • Kittenmom says:

        Ditto!

      • Sammi says:

        Not in the 90s there were still movie stars. Winona was a movie star. It’s not the same. She was massive. Taylor Swift has nowhere near the craziness of Michael Jackson or a Beatle as a pop star. Movie stars and pop stars of the 90s had a different level of fame. It was crazy. Fame isn’t the same. Taylor Swift is the most famous pop star but it’s not comparable.

      • Mightymolly says:

        @Sammi – ITA 100%. But I have a personal policy of not commenting on Taylor Swift so we’ll leave it at that.

      • Thinking says:

        The fact that Taylor Swift is a billionaire (and aimed to be one) puts her in a different category altogether.

        Part of Ryder’s appeal is she starred in Reality Bites which was about not selling out. And today is all about selling out hahaha.

      • mightymolly` says:

        @Thinking – Those are good points. In 100 years, no one will remember that Tay was a billionaire. It’s the cultural influence that puts someone in the history books. But Winona was never about capitalist greed and that’s a huge difference. The culture of the 90s was different too but Gwen was always about marketability and Winona was about her own vibe, so even then Winona was not the rich girl prototype. I don’t think that Winona was ever as universally and globally recognized as Tay is now, but I do think that she is a unique icon in a way that Tay – while commercially more successful and globally better known – never will be.

    • Chiron says:

      @sammi the Beatles were 60s and 60s not 90s. mj Was most popular in the 80s because by the 90s issues about children started to come up. Taylor is in a much more competitive environment than the Beatles were, and she’s bested most of their records bar one I think. And she’s one and they were 4.

      Winona was a solid indie actress. Comparing an actor who recites lines to the biggest pop station the world who writes all her lines, plus sings and plays multiple instruments is fucking stupid and rude. The shoplifter ain’t Taylor swift..shows how up his arse hawke is. But then he attempted to write. You don’t have like ts, but people like McCartney, bono, jagger all do and very vocally. So if you know music more than they do, good luck. I remember the 90s clearly. She wasn’t that. Ts is easy pickings here though. We all know that. Mostly because people are clueless about hercand only remember songs from when she was 20 to 25. I still enjoy those songs. Many women love to feel superior and smarter and this is how. Except it’s the opposite. It shows ignorance and stupidity.

      • Graphinya Heather says:

        Not a TS fan, don’t care about her personal life and her music doesn’t resonate with me at all. There are no ethical billionaires and I’ll leave it at that.

        But I was a preteen/early teenager in the early 90s and for a subset of us, she was everything. She was our Goth Princess when Goth and alternative was becoming big (The Crow and its magnificent soundtrack around this time). She was hugely influential on me and my subset of baby bats. When I think back to that period of my life (I’ve matured into goth adjacent and metal head), Winona was one of the main influences.

    • Up In Toronto says:

      Winona was extremely unique for a Hollywood star in the 90s. She was dark, whimsical and very alternative which I’d never seen anybody like her. Her celebrity coupledom with Johnny Depp made her an absolute supernova. From my point of view, I did think that she was put forward as penultimate symbol of female youth in America at the time. I know that people will disagree with me, but there was something so accessible and intriguing about Winona Ryder!

  3. NoHope says:

    I have to admit to loving the pictures of Gwyneth and Winona. What a moment of life.

  4. Dss says:

    So true about Winona. My personal opinion (take it for what it’s worth…)was that she was blackballed by Winstein and his ilk and it had nothing to do with the BS shoplifting crap.

  5. Edward says:

    He contradicts himself. One cannot be like Taylor Swift and also be cool and punk. Pretty sure Winona would do a massive eyeroll and think, “Taylor wishes!’

  6. MaisiesMom says:

    I don’t think Winona and Taylor are really comparable. As successful and popular as she was, Winona was still more niche. She wasn’t *everywhere.* I admire both of them for different reasons, but Winona was and remains a lot edgier.

    I wanted to look like her in the 90s! It’s so true that her look really set a trend, from the very beginning when she appeared in “Lucas” as the BFF character. She struck the perfect balance between tomboy cool and feminine. Her version of “Little Women” is still my favorite by far. I liked Soairse Ronan’s Jo in the Greta Gerwig adaptation but in general it just didn’t hold a candle for me.

    • Thinking says:

      In terms of sheer size of fame and popularity, I think Julia Roberts would likely be more comparable to Taylor Swift.
      ‘

  7. Mightymolly says:

    Winona Ryder cast Angelina Jolie in Girl Interrupted, a movie that launched multiple careers and won Angie an Oscar. Winona’s influence is undeniable and should be shouted from the rooftops. #teamwinona!

  8. Nancy says:

    I recently compared Zendaya to her, to my 15-year-old daughter, in order to help my daughter understand how big she was. I’m not sure. I agree about the Taylor Swift thing. I love Taylor, but I wouldn’t call taylor cool or punk rock. I also am not sure I’d agree that Winona was “the most punk rock” person in her day, when there were literal punk rock folks out there. While Winona was definitely cool, she was more known for her beauty and charisma than her pink rockness, IMHO.

    • Mightymolly says:

      Oooh good one!!

    • lanne says:

      Zendaya might be a better comparison–more apples to apples. Im a little younger than Winona Ryder and I remember how much influence she had on the zeitgeist of the time. She was the ultimate cool girl for the late teens and twenty something set. We had grown up seeing her in Beetlejuice, Heathers, Mermaids, Edward Scissorhands, and then she started doing the big prestige pictures like Age of Innocence–and then hit peak zeitgeist again with Reality Bites. That was THE film we were all talking about in college–it “spoke tp us” Gen-Xers. I dont want to see it again because I’m sure I’d find it self indulgent and silly. I prefer remembering what it felt like to watch it back then. Winona was conventionally beautiful but she had an “alternative girl” sensibility–she wasn’t a too-cool-for-school blond like Gwenyth Paltrow. Winona felt more authentic and relatable, even to a black girl like me. I sought out her films especially in a way that I didn’t with other actresses.

      Zendaya has that same cool girl vibe now. Maybe Elle Fanning does too, in that we want to see what they’re doing and see what they’re wearing. Taylor Swift isn’t a great comparison (with more thought than Ethan Hawke likely gave this) in that she occupied a different cultural space. I don’t know who from the past I would compare Taylor Swift to. I think Taylor Swift has become a caricature of herself–her image is so overproduced and calculated that she seems to be playing the role of Taylor Swift. That was never Winona Ryder. I think Taylor Swift is in her own category–she’s the Taylor Swift machine at this point. That’s not a criticism. I don’t think there’s anybody else like her.

      • Graphinya Heather says:

        Disregarding longevity because he died so young…but Valentino. He had beauty, natural charisma but was also a heavily curated and constructed movie idol of the early Hollywood publicity machine. Just him growing a beard caused a major stir in those days, not to mention his untimely death and funeral. 100,000 people or more attended his funeral, and this was back in 1926, without the whole 24 hour news cycle or social media. There was wailing in the streets. There were even people (mostly women) deleting themselves because he died. Then there are the “women in black” (though now that role is filled by a film historian).

  9. Sue says:

    She really was the IT girl of the 90s. I was just thinking about the movie The Crucible the other day. She was able to be in so many interesting things without overexposure.

  10. olliesmom says:

    Minus the obvious music?

  11. Thinking says:

    Taylor Swift is pretty massive (as I suppose music stars are).

    I would probably describe Winona Ryder as….cooler.

    They occupy different categories. Er, not to mention they make different kinds of art.

    I find the comparison between the two a little strange, but maybe it’ll annoy Gwyneth, which I would find hilarious.

    • Sue says:

      Yeah – I get what Ethan was trying to say. He meant her pop cultural significance and success were on Taylor’s level. BUT if we were to compare Winona to a massive pop star of today, I’d steer toward Billie Eilish. Incredibly talented, unique, and never apologizes for not fitting into the cookie cutter starlet category

  12. Constance says:

    Winona was and is COOL. Taylor has never been cool. There is nothing effortless about Taylor. She is uber famous undoubtedly but to me that is all they have in common.
    Winona wins at coolness chicness hipness etc etc

  13. HandforthParish says:

    Winona was edgier.
    She was insanely versatile, but also looked shy and uncomfortable with fame. She managed to stay niche and still make successful movies, but never blockbusters that would have Taylored her.
    She definitely never played the game the way TS does.

  14. Jferber says:

    I remember when Winona was taken down (canceled even) because of a shoplifting charge at a fancy store. Granted, she shouldn’t have done it, but she was practically pillaged by people bc of shoplifting. Men can win Oscars and maintain popularity through rape, pedophilia, assault, even murder. I’m thinking of the artist who was acquitted of murder when his very tiny artist wife was thrown out of a very high window in his bathroom. She couldn’t even have reached the window, but bc he was a rich, white, famous artist he went free and for all I know, maintained his professional reputation. I could look up his name, but what’s the point? I always thought it was very unfair that Winona was damaged goods for years because of a misdemeanor.

  15. Jferber says:

    Ethan Hawke has himself dumped his wife for his baby sitter, divorced Uma Thurman and married the baby sitter, had kids with her and is still with her (I think). And did he get any shit for that? I don’t think so. So he himself is an example of crappy white men who get away with stuff (he was even nominated for an Oscar for a recent movie).

  16. Mtl.ex. Pat says:

    As a GenX I remember when reality bites came out. I had just graduated from undergrad and that movie spoke to me at that time like nothing else ever had. I don’t think anyone can really appreciate the feeling of being seen and heard that that movie had on so many people in my generation and Winona Ryder was the absolute coolest of cool back then. She was edgy. She was smart. She was independent and most of all she was unique.

    Ethan Hawke misspoke about the Taylor Swift comparison, and I don’t really care about that. But Winona Ryder was an absolute cultural icon in the late 80s and early 90s and you had to really be there to appreciate that.

  17. jferber says:

    Graphyna Heather, I love silent movies, so thank you for mentioning Valentino. I watched him in The Sheik. Yes, he died very young of some ailment related to his stomach? I was never quite clear on his cause of death.

  18. SoCal says:

    Winona is very odd these days. I flew with her in Air Canada Business Class from LAX to Vancouver a number of months ago. I was first to board the plane from the terminal gate but lo and behold Winona was already there with her long-term partner (a very tall man, a designer, and their luggage was quite cool). However, she was wide-eyed and agitated as they were assigned seats in the last (fourth) row of Business Class and so I guess that was not good enough for her. As soon as I walked in, our eyes met and I don’t think I registered anything on my face but I was “holy crap it’s Winona!” in my head. She must have pre-boarded from the private terminal at LAX where they take your luggage, handle security and drive you to your plane. After all the Business Class passengers entered (Winona’s hands were fluttering the entire time), a younger but well dressed couple sitting in the bulkhead to the right of us were approached by the senior flight attendant who whispered to them. The woman was not happy, saying they had booked their seats well in advance. The FA whispered some more, and then they huffily got up and swapped seats with Winona and her partner. So, I was an aisle away from Winona and could observe her a little bit. She was dressed ALL in black, including a hat and boots (her feet are tiny). She had white powder on her face which was very odd. She watched shows on her iPad and had her feet up in the boots on the bulkhead the entire flight which I find rather rude. She only drank water while her partner had a regular amount of food and drinks. I disembarked first and never saw them again so I think they must have had concierge pick-up at the Vancouver end as well. Overall impression: she is very very strange. And so tiny.

  19. JaneHudson says:

    Corny people need their idols too. I mean look at the people who like TayTay Prince William, Tom Cruise and that Trumper Dave Portney. The corniest of the corny.

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