Caitlyn Jenner is one of Time Magazine’s People of the Year. She was actually #7 on Time’s list, after people like Angela Merkel, al-Baghdadi and the Black Lives Matter activists. Caitlyn has had an incredible year, and during her Time Mag interview, she reflected back on some things she’s learned in 2015. Cosmopolitan writer Alex Rees drew attention to one particular part of Caitlyn’s Time interview and Rees wrote a lengthy piece about why Caitlyn still has a lot to learn about how she speaks about herself and her trans experience. You can read the full Cosmo piece here (it’s very interesting) and here’s the part of Cailtyn’s interview that bothered Rees:
“One thing that has always been important for me, and it may seem very self-absorbed or whatever, is first of all, your presentation of who you are. I think it’s much easier for a trans woman or a trans man who authentically kind of looks and plays the role. So what I call my presentation. I try to take that seriously. I think it puts people at ease. If you’re out there and, to be honest with you, if you look like a man in a dress, it makes people uncomfortable. So the first thing I can do is try to present myself well. I want to dress well. I want to look good. When I go out, as Kim says, you’ve got to rock it because the paparazzi will be there.
[From Time Magazine via Cosmo]
Yes, it is self-absorbed. And this, in a nutshell, is one of the biggest valid criticisms of Caitlyn Jenner throughout the year: that she’s a privileged, self-absorbed person who is only really interested in the superficiality of being a woman. She’s only interested in the clothes, the hair, the makeup, the “presentation.” What I always say that about Caitlyn is that she ends up making the trans experience very relatable to people because you can see for yourself that trans individuals are just like everybody else: they can be superficial, vapid jackasses just like cisgendered people.
Alex Rees also takes Caitlyn to task for using the “play a role” language, which Rees calls “a serious misunderstanding of what many in the community are still compelled to argue is a major reason behind their transitions — the desire, if not need, to be their authentic self/gender identity and stop having to “play the roles” society enforces on men and women.” Basically, Caitlyn still needs to educate herself. I understand that she’s not going to “get” it all at once, and baby steps and all of that. But it does seem like Caitlyn is just a judgy country club lady who mostly cares about what people think about her. That came through on her E! show too – she’s in constant need of validation, even from her children.
Photos courtesy of Fame/Flynet.
Caitlyn dear, I hope you are not taking fashion advice from Kim? Not a good idea
Tuck game on point.
Spit. My. Coffee. LOL, Word!
Bwahaha!
Or is that ‘Tuck game on fleek?’ Lol
Am I out of the inside joke? “Tuck Game” seems like a really insensitive comment to me….I know she is a Kardishian/Jenner and so she is hated but seriously?! Let’s not joke about tucking when it comes to trans people- that’s just frickin’ rude & uncalled for. Sorry to be so harsh but that didn’t make me spit my coffee it just made me sad. People are hating on her for commenting on how other people react to her looks & then you comment on tucking?! Maybe I’m missing something……
This is really hateful and transphobic. You know very well this woman isn’t tucking anything, and there is no reason to call attention to the fact that she used to have male genitalia between her legs except to be blatantly hurtful. Go back to whatever small-minded hole of bigotry you crawled out of.
@ meh
Regardless of the comment above, Caitlyn did not have her male genitals removed. She never had the surgery. When the person said “tuck game is strong”, they may have actually meant it as a compliment…or perhaps not…that is for them to know and not for us to assume.
Has she had surgery yet or just hormones?
If she hasn’t had surgery yet to remove her penis, then her tuck game IS on point.
I’m not sure on her status – I don’t really pay attention to the Klan.
@ me & Pandy- Nope- no pass! It is not our business what she has between her legs. That is no compliment saying that her “tuck game is on point”. If someone tries to pass it off as “oh- she’s really good at tucking- good her for her!” Nope!!! I totally agree with Meh- that was a transphobic comment & totally uncalled for. THIS is the exact thing Caitlyn is talking about in her comment that she gets so much hate for. When was the last time someone asked about your vagina?! How would you feel about someone asking you?! Caitlyn has never said if she did or did not have surgery on her genitals nor should she ever have to.
Caitlin said that the surgery is still in the future as she did not care for having sex right now , or something like that.
I think she is more on taking her persona/personality where it should in her transition be before more surgeries.
Yes, I was wondering too, about it. Female hormones have a part in the pants look, as I understand.
@MC2
Yes she DID say that she has not had the surgery yet and is not sure if she ever wants to. She said it on her show. We can’t assume the comment made up above was said to degrade her. It could very well be a compliment.
@ me- that is not a compliment and trying to play it as one is silly imo. I’m sorry but I just can’t see it any other way. Are you trying to say that she was complimenting the transgender person for being to tuck their penis & not show it & the laughing, spitting out coffee and “bwahaha” and “tuck game on fleek” was all respectful and just trying to compliment her by saying that she is really good at tucking in her penis to not show it?! Okay- if that is actually the truth (I’d bet all my chips in Vegas that it’s not) then I’m down. She is really good at tucking in her penis (if she has one which I could not care less). Still disrespectful even in that form though.
Gender is how she wants to be addressed and seen in society NOT what is in between her legs. That is sex and nobodies business. Saying that a transgender person’s “tuck game is on point” and then having people laugh about it is not a compliment.
I don’t care what Caitlyn has between her legs and neither should anyone else unless they want an intimate relationship with her. That is my point. The fact that she discussed it on her show is sad and her business. You even said that she shared that she did not have surgery yet- that was a while ago so maybe she has or not. Point is I do not care if she has a penis or not. It’s nobodies business and, frankly, rude for people to be asking about it or laughing.
HAHAHA Buffalo Bill 2k15
I hope she hasn’t had the surgery. Messing around with the urogenital system is just too risky, especially at her age. I think we just need to accept it as just a variation on the theme.
But she does look like a man dressed as a woman.
That’s probably because she was born male…..She was a man who transitioned so she looks like a man to many (especially since you saw her as Bruce for a long time). What’s your point? These sorts of comments are 100% validating the point that she is making (or trying to make in an inarticulate way).
That’s because she technically is a man in a dress
I don’t have a problem with her transition. I think she is kind of pretty as a woman.
Where my problem lies is how mean and fing b*tchy she is. She is far more atrocious than all the Kardashians put together. Her personality is mean girl galore and it’s ridiculous.
She is vain, vapid and she is VERY passive aggressive and blames others for her family problems.
Worst of all, she dragged Kris Jenner through the mud in her Vanity Fair article and really, no matter what PMK did, she is the mother of Caitlyn’s kids and for that, she should have vented her anger in private rather than humiliate the mother of her kids in a magazine. I don’t care what Kris Jenner did and I know she’s a horrible person too, but Caitlyn should have thought of her kids and how THEY would feel after reading that stuff she said about PMK in Vanity Fair.
Then, when Khloe got angry and tried to speak to Caitlyn about all the trash talking she was doing, Caitlyn had the balls to try to get mad at Khloe.
Because the most important thing in life is spending hours putting on makeup and clothes in order to make yourself feel better. No thanks, Cait. I am up at 4 AM and out the door at 4:30 running to my job in health care where I help people. Nothing prettier than putting others before yourself.
@Catwoman, There is something in between vapid and selfless. There is a reason you are told to put the airmask on yourself first and then tend to others. Not caring for yourself will kill you and other people will just keep on going.
Anywhoo…
It is apparent now that Bruce was in competition with Kris. Now that Bruce is Caitlyn, we get to see all the personality quirks that were hidden by the gender quandry.
Bruce was a narcissistic asshole and so is Caitlyn.
Amen.
All I got is that I don’t think Caitlyn looks like a man in a dress but in the pics of her dressed in white she does look like the lady from the prancercise workout videos.
It’s OK if that’s who Caitlyn wants to be/is.
Frankly for me to go out of the house every day like a Kylie or Kim or Kris or Caitlyn, that would be a kind of torturous female drag for me. Clearly Caitlyn recognizes it is role play, and she enjoys it.
I loathe it.
I like hoodies and cargo pants – I like a good matte lipstick though, and doing my eyes. But all that other shite? Heels, hose and waxing and plucking and curling irons, and designer dresses and corsets…eff that. I’d rather dress like Kanye than Kim. Doesn’t make me less a woman. Lol
i think Caitlyn loves the attention and looking as beautiful as she can (whatever that means to her)…in that, she’s not much different than her daughters, or ex-wives….and that’s ok.
All of this! Women instinctively know that dresses and makeup do not a woman make. For the Kardashian/jenners, however, that’s all womanhood is; so I guess it’s not really Caitlyn’s fault that her view of womanhood is a bit skewed.
I do not think she is speaking for some who are born being actual biological women.
She is referring to people like her.
I infer that she is making an effort of looking feminine, like a woman. She was, before Bruce declaring himself Caitlyn, wearing sports pants, polo tees and golfing shoes. Some women wear those outfits without a problem, but he was looking like a mixture of his personalities and probably people at the club or on the street stared or was uncomfortable.
She was probably feeling uncomfortable as well, so now she wears the full feminine style to convey his woman persona. She is lucky to have a nice figure and a nice big wallet, even as tall and broader shoulder as her body is, she looks nice and her clothes and style are on point. Others probably face a greater challenge for making themselves look as they want to be seen, body or clothes wise.
+2 Bossycat
As a woman I feel uncomfortable setting up a a strict list of how someone should act before they can be called a woman. Least we forget Kate Middleton the representative of English women mainly shops and takes pictures wearing pretty clothes as do many actresses and of course models. I believe they too are women, right? Let her do her thing. That’s show business
Yes, my impression of her after watching her show was that she was rather shallow…at least the persona she was showing for the cameras. She made it seem that being a woman was all about shiny lip gloss, makeup, dresses, high heels, sleepovers and pillow fights and I found myself going WTF?
It may just be her hamming it up for the cameras, but she really left a bad impression on me.
Color me not surprised.
I always thought Bruce was vapid, and Caitlyn, although much more at ease and comfortable in her skin, is still as vapid as any Kardashian comes: all about the best paparazzi picture.
You really, you think Bruce was vapid. I think he was over whelmed surrounded by all these women ( and in hind sight) was probably absolutely tortured he couldn’t be one too. Kris did not have any respect for her husband, she can cry about the Vanity Fair article now but watched many shows where she and sometimes her kids would gang up on him too. Which makes me very surprised about Caitlyn’s new attitude.
He was certainly too self-absorbed, always, to be a good parent. I agree with Mimz that he hasn’t changed much in that regard.
He chose to be there. I also watched some KUWTK early eps and these women you talk about, only Kim and Kourtney were adults by then, and Kris yes she’s terrible but I hardly believe anyone can separate a father from his children, unless he’s OK with it. And each and every time he spoke to his other kids, esp. to Brody, he’d half-ass apologize but making it clear it was for his own peace of mind, rather than making it right. This happens everyday everywhere, deadbeat dads who ditch their kids for the new flashy hot wife (can hate Kris all we want but she’s got her assets). So imagine being married to a beautiful woman who knew how to make money and all she needed to be able to do was call all the shots! Bruce was miserable, yes, but it was his own fault. Because it serve him.
Now, as Caitlyn finally arrived, I still don’t see this completely different person everyone is expecting to see. Her series was all about her being told she was pretty and her dress was beautiful, and blaming everything in her life on Kris.
Yeah she seems like she doesn’t want to take any accountability for anything, she is stubborn and lacks empathy. Yet she still expects her brood and the world to just support anything she does, I have seen this in the show. Or maybe it could be as Bruce was silent,mistreated and over shadowed for so long now she feels being this way is the only way to make her feel strong.
+1
Yes, she’s shallow and self-centered and doesn’t see past the superficial, just as Bruce was. I still think what she did was brave, and that in the end, she helped the conversation about trans people. It’s not black and white. I admire the courage it took to be public in her transition but don’t especially admire the person, especially the parent, she is.
One of the most fascinating things about Caitlyn’s public transition is the way that she is treated as a woman/transwoman in comparison to how Bruce was treated. I’m not talking about your comments specifically because you seem more even headed than most when it comes to the actions of Bruce and the actions of Caitlyn, but Bruce being called a self-absorbed, vapid deadbeat bad was practically unheard of last year. He was the long suffering olympic hero forced to shuffle around the Kardashian Klan, even though he was just as vapid as the rest of them. Caitlyn, however, is vapid, a deadbeat parent etc. They’re all criticism that she deserves, no doubt, but it’s interesting that folks seemed only willing to make them after her transition to a woman.
I don’t know that people knew that. I really didn’t know anything about Bruce Jenner except that he was an Olympic athlete and he was married to Kardashian. I think there’s just more people actually researching her past and seeing what she really is. I never bothered to look until he ran over that lady with his car.
@CK It’s because Bruce was in the background. Now that Caitlyn is on full display we all see the real person. It’s nothing to do with gender.
The heat finally did hit her before the transition, but not too long before. I think the big instigator for people finally getting fed up with her as well was around the whole Kylie being groomed by an adult male thing, and neither parent gives a crap.
CK- I agree with your comments and they are astute. I remember everyone felt so bad for Bruce being married to Kris, dealing with all the K girls & would rally around him as the only lovable one in the family & now she is as hated as the rest. Hmmm….it’s an interesting turn of events & just goes to show how quick public opinion can change.
@CK
Interesting. I never bought into the Bruce as victim theory, but yes, I do see that the conversation has changed a bit since he became Caitlyn. I agree with Sloaney and FingerBinger that it’s partially because people know more about her now, but I wouldn’t write off your theory that different words are used now that we are talking about a woman.
I agree with your comment, but it should also be noted that Caitlyn also didn’t get honest about her lack of parenting until she transitioned. Particularly in her vanity fair article
I gotta point out, part of the difference wasn’t Caitlyn’s transition, but her divorce. We probably ly would speak very differently of her as a parent had she divorced Kris and then been an active parent in her children’s lives. But that clearly didn’t happen, and THAT’S why she gets flak. It has nothing to do with Caitlyn’s transition. And some people may have felt bad for Bruce, but I always thought he was a jerk. The other Jenner kids have talked about he completely ditched him as a parent, and he was always a willing participant in the KUWTK shenanigans. In many ways I think that the transition from Bruce to Caitlyn actually gave Bruce’s decisions a more positive context, as many thought he had been less jerky and more conflicted and unhappy.
I agree, it still took bravery to go public and that has done some good, but beyond that she seems to be a lousy, shallow person and a terrible parent.
I think her comments about playing a role and not being a man in a dress (which, really Caitlyn???) are ignorant in the extreme. I’m not, however, going to be upset because she cares about her appearance. Many women do, and caring about hair and makeup isn’t any less valid of a way to be a woman than being “above” it all.
I agree 100%. She had the nerve to tell on Ellen she didn’t like same sex marriage. She is clueless. I feel sorry for the transgender comunity to have this ignorant person represent them. What about the increadible Chaz Bono? Not this shallow, ignorant Jenner.
@C When she did the Diane Sawyer interview she said the same thing, she actually said that she was a Republican. So I’m not surprised by her opinion in that however contradicting it is. Bruce had always been more conservative, so is Caitlyn. She’s happy in her own skin now but that doesn’t mean that her ideas changed. She needs to learn a lot because comments like this affect the trans community.
I know I’m not in the common opinion but I don’t condemn what she is saying. I think she is talking about other people’s reactions to who she is- not her own feelings. I think she is trying to talk about making other people “comfortable” (which is important to some and not to others & is BS but also a reality) so she is going to do things a certain way. I’ve been lucky to know a few trans people in my life and have known people who transitioned with more stereotypical female characteristics and also knew someone who kept her beard. She got A LOT more reactions & shite from people since she was a “woman with a beard”. People didn’t know what to do & would react with no tact at all. She would say “hey- I’m a chick with a beard”. She owned it & she was great & had good self esteem but people would react all the time to it. The other trans people I knew who publicly had more of a conventional “female” look didn’t get as much flack, judgement, looks, comments, etc from the public at all. So I think that’s what Caitlyn might be talking about? I think she is talking about giving in to other people’s reactions & trying to get them “more comfortable” with her transition. I’m not saying it’s right or correct but the fact is that a male looking individual in a dress will get a lot more shite then someone who looks more “female” in a dress. It’s crap, it’s bad but it’s reality since some people care & feel okay commenting & reacting to another person’s looks. And I think a large part is whether or not you care about the public’s comments & perceptions. Obviously Caitlyn does. Which I think is okay & she’s being honest about her experiences which I think is common. The woman I knew who called herself “a chick with a beard” was such an inspiration to me (I am someone who cares constantly about other people’s view of me) since she just rolled with everyone’s ignorant & stupid reactions all the time. I would just watch her with my jaw dropped & try to take some inspiration.
But trans people shouldn’t have to worry about making other people comfortable with who they are just to avoid harassment and threats of violence. Why isn’t she focusing on that? This comes off as her telling everyone about the unimpeachable importance of passing. When the fact of the matter is, she only passes as completely as she does because of her wealth and privilege. Add to that that plenty of trans people don’t WANT to pass and are interested in queering the boundaries between man and woman- she is just doing so much more harm than good.
UHG. I can’t stand this woman and yet I find myself defending her from transphobic trolls on every post.
@ Meh- I agree with your statement. If we lived in a Utopian society (at least mine) no one would care & trans people shouldn’t have to care about others reactions. But…..I think people tend to forget that she is human and she probably does care (or feel things) about people’s reactions. There is no “importance of passing”- just each person’s tolerance towards other people’s transphobic reaction. And I think it’s okay if she says that affects her…..that’s most people’s reaction I would assume.
I was born female, look very female and I am so concerned about how others view me (in many different capacities- as a mom, wife, woman, earner, etc) so if I was transgendered I’d probably be the one who tried my best to “fit into the stereotype” to save myself from the attention and humiliation that idiots would bring if I didn’t. That’s why I loved the woman I knew who had a beard was so inspirational- would others be willing to rock that & deal with all the attention & stupid comments? I wish I could but to be honest I wouldn’t. And the comments here & in other sites just prove Caitlyn’s comments and they do not discount them. We live in a transphobic society….
I agree with you and I have no emotional connection to Caitlyn & don’t particularly like her but, damn, these comments make me sad & prove her point! I, unfortunately, think that they are not “transphobic trolls” but actually the average American. UHG is right!
@Meh: what’s driving me crazy about her statement isn’t the comments about the makeup and dresses, but the fact that her look is also the result of a lot of very painful, and very expensive plastic surgery.
I have no problem with cis or trans women being into makeup and hairstyles and enjoying all of that “super femme” experience. It’s fun! I also have no problem with sexual expression being a kind of performance, as it can be for anyone, cis or trans. Just because you like glamming up does not mean it is your only priority in life.
But Caitlyn… ugh. I happen to know quite a number of trans and gender fluid folks, and they all have issues with Caitlyn. I can see why. Her attitudes are *not* helping.
I had such high hopes for her to bring visibility to trans issues and acceptance to the community. And now she comes out using expressions like “play the role”. My bad for expecting something meaningful coming from a Kardashian/ Jenner.
Yeah that ‘play the role’ made me wince, the sad thing is it’s not even the word. Her whole speech sounds like she doesn’t actually understand what it means to be trans. So that as long as your hair is perfectly curled and your nails are polished that you’re deserving of respect where the average trans individual who doesn’t have a glam squad or money to help totally change their appearance is at fault for their own mistreatment.
I don’t think she is saying she is more deserving then another but that she is pandering to other people’s reactions to her transition by trying to look more like the stereotypical female. I also don’t think she’s wrong. People do react & it sucks (if you care). She never said that people who do not have access or who don’t want to look more stereotypically female (or do) are at fault for their own mistreatment. She does have access to those things & is choosing to use them. She obviously cares what other people think about her…..that’s not that uncommon & I appreciate her honesty.
Hair and make up aside, did she not listen to the trans women who she met with on her show who had to do sex work in order to pay for their operations??
Not everyone has access to the best surgeons or the funds to do the work that she has had done, they do what they can, same as hair and make up and also clothes, they do what they can afford to do.
Yeah she really comes off as callous and insensitive.
She’s described herself as a conservative republican several times. I’m guessing she wrote them off as less than human because they engaged in sex work, and immediately stopped listening to anything they had to say.
“who is only really interested in the superficiality of being a woman.”
Ding, ding, ding! But, like you said, there’s nothing wrong with that. It’s just who she is, and it’s who she is surrounded by.
I honestly believe that it will eventually come out Bruce aka Kaitlyn, simply likes to dress up in women’s clothes and wear makeup. Period. No intent to remove genitalia or his manly voice. The idea that he just got sick and tired of watching the Kardashian women parade in all their high fashion outfits…and make up…and he wanted in on the attention. Sorry Bruce, not buying that it’s been a life long struggle. You’re simply a cross dresser. End of story.
You don’t have to want to remove male genitalia to be trans.
Many trans women are attracted to women, so there’s no point in having a full surgery.
Crosdressers like to dress as both genders, and don’t usually adopt either role.
This. People sh*t so much on Caitlyn for not bringing awareness but are completely unable to educate themselves on these matters.
Ok but Caitlyn did get breast implants though. What was the need for those if you’re going to keep your penis? I don’t get that part of her thinking. I also do not understand why she won’t admit if she’s attracted to men or women or both. She gets flustered when asked as if she’s embarrassed to say. She shouldn’t be embarrassed. She’s come this far so why not just let it all out?
@me – just as a comparison of surgery – I’d much rather get implants than any kind of surgery of that nature. So I kind of get why Caitlyn wouldn’t be jumping to go under the knife for that – and it doesn’t negate trans status. It’s not up to me to say “yeah well I don’t believe you because you didn’t follow x guideline that I decided was necessary to show that you mean it”
@ Erinn
Yes I get that. But why go through the breast implant surgery? That can be risky as well, especially at that age. Caitlyn could easily have used padded bras or push up bras like a lot of small breasted women do. It’s all vanity. Of course it doesn’t negate trans status. Remember SHE is the one saying that trans women need to look more like women so as not to make other people uncomfortable. Those are HER words.
I totally agree with you!!! I tried to give Caitlyn the benefit of doubt but the more episodes of KUWTK and the Caitlyn show I saw (and shamefully I watched all of them so far 😳) and interviews I read about her thoughts and transition, my personal opinion is that Bruce is and has been a confused man that does not want to admit that he is simply a cross dresser. He loves being a guy with all the male perks and privileges and still has a very male dominated though, beliefs and opinions but also loves to dress as a woman and enjoy all the female superficial stuff without any trace of any true feminine qualities that true transgender women have. Caitlyn seems to me a woman on just a very superficial level and nothing more. All these years on KUWTK Bruce NEVER showed any trace of feminine nature, he seemed genually very constable in his male persona, minus the desire to wear female clothes in public like he desired. This might be a controversial opinion to some people but to me Bruce is 100% a very confused cross dresser and I feel sorry for all the true trans people who have him/her to represent their community.
Cross dressers identify as cisgender and consider their cross dressing a hobby, not an identity. They do not seek gender reassignment surgery and in fact would not be allowed by a therapist, prescribing doctor, or surgeon to go forward with it unless they expressed identity dysphoria.
So no, Caitlyn is not a cross dresser. She is a transwoman who was diagnosed with gender dysphoria by a therapist, who then gave their medical recommend to a physician that she be prescribed female hormones and a surgeon that she have reassignment surgery. Transition is a medical process with many barrier/checkpoints.
I was passing through Nordstrom’s when I saw a very tall, not-very-handsome man with wire-rimmed glasses who looked like a middle manager – wearing a black wig, earrings, a dress, and enormous women’s sandals. He looked terrible, but I thought “good for him! This is obviously who he wants to be right now.” No paparazzi to dress for, just himself. I was a tiny bit uncomfortable, but I felt that was my problem for being judgey. There’s no way he was ever going to look like Sophia Loren, so more power to him.
A few years ago I was at a lady Gaga concert and there were these very tall, gorgeous women in front of me and I felt bad about myself. Then I realised they were either trans or in drag and I felt even worse about myself
omg, that was so cute, it made me smile 🙂
I’ve come to that point, myself. I don’t know why it’s human nature to be so judgy. I will admit, though, that it does make me uncomfortable to see what looks like my eyes a man in a dress and makeup, but then I tell myself that I’ve been conditioned to feel that way and I send the person blessings and go on my way.
You sounds like a caring person who is committed to having an open mind. Good for you to challenge yourself. I wish more people reacted to things they are unfamiliar with this way.
+1- I (born female) will never look like Sophia Loren either. Sad face….
I understand some of her point. However, until trans is accepted, there will be people who are going to be, maybe not uncomfortable, as much as ridiculing or shaming when someone appears to them to be trans. She seems to be talking about making people not be able to “tell.”
The problem is biology is biology and only someone as rich as Caitlyn can afford the amount of plastic surgery and consultants that it sometimes takes to transform someone born with one gender of a body into looking like another gender of a body. And in fact, going to such lengths to do this unless it’s for someone’s own self is a form of transphobe. In any case,no amount o makeup, clothes, or “presentation” will affect the viewpoint of transphobe people. The fact that this is lost on her is worrisome.
Ok so #1 is presentation. Fine.
#2? Oh there’s nothing else?
I am now falling into the camp of people who disagrees with awarding Caitlyn for what exactly? She continues to vote Republican, I guess because she loves her guns and money. When she does speak about her experiences, she comes across as very superficial, caring primarily about clothes and makeup. And she doesn’t seem interested at all with helping other transgendered people with their fight for equality. All of this is fine. We still live in a free country in which we can be as vapid and self absorbed as we want (God bless), but it is silly to be awarded for it.
This. Wait for it and Caitlyn will disappoint us as much as every single Kardashian and Jenner through her own actions.
So the way she votes should play a role in whether she gets awards for being transgender? That’s ridiculous.
Everyone should be able to do whatever they want and think however they want….as long as it conforms to what we think they should say and feel and do.
Hope that cleared everything up for you. 😉
@SloaneY- My position is she certainly should be able to think, do, say, feel however she wants, but she is being given awards for courage, women of the year awards, social awareness awards. I am questioning why exactly she is being given these awards when if you parse her interviews, it seems that she is very often putting down her own community and is in a sense trying to separate herself from them. Regarding my voting Republican comment, I didn’t say that Republicans shouldn’t win awards, or even that they shouldn’t win awards for social awareness and courage. But the Republicans are the party that continue to try keep minorities in the minority. They do not want to recognize gays, lesbians, bisexuals, transgendered people as having the same rights and equality as other people in this country. Of course, Caitlyn is free to vote for Republicans, but these days,voting Republican is very often a vote against equal rights for gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgendered people.
I still think Caitlyn has done more good than bad. Ever since her Vanity Fair cover came out, I’ve seen trans people SO much more on the media. Articles in magazines, interviews in the news, etc. Is she herself a role model? Eh, not really, but she opened the door for a lot of people who really are. She gave the trans community visibility, an existance in mainstream media.
Yeah she’s vapid and stupid but there’s good to that too. We don’t have to worship trans people as these heroic angels, either. They are flawed people, like you and me, worthy of criticism or admiration according to the case.
I agree with you. I don’t know why people want to put her down for not being a good role model when society is the one that should stop discrimination and violence against trans people.
Transphobic people are the ones that have to change, not Caitlyn.
Trans people were already visible in the media. Laverne Cox and Chaz Bono were around before Caitlyn. She hasn’t anything for the trans community yet.
Bruce was a medal-winning athlete and a member of the most infamous family in reality TV history. Chaz is the son of Cher and Laverne plays a secondary role in OITNB. Come on, now. Chaz and Laverne together are not half as famous as Caitlyn is.
Ugh, by do we keep trumping up one achievement from more than 20 years ago as the standard of accomplishment. Come on, we don’t even pay attention to our Olympians from 4 years ago and yet everyone acts like Caitlyn getting on a Wheeties box makes her perfect. Being part of the Kardashian clan isn’t an achievement, it’s an association.
Let’s face it. Lavern Cox and Chaz Bono don’t have a huge PR machine nominating them for every award under the sun and instead actually put their money where their mouth is. It really disgusts me how we disregard people who actually do something useful in favor of people who just look like they are.
I don’t agree. Trans activists, business persons and celebrities were in the media already. That show about the trans teenagers was already showing. Trans activism, linked in with other movements that are big right now, was already getting exposure. That didn’t happen because of Caitlyn Jenner.
I’m not saying Caitlyn created trans activism, but it’d be very hard to argue she’s not the most famous trans person alive right now. No transition story is as famous as hers is. No trans person has ever received the media attention she has.
Say whatever you want about her as a person (I agree she’s not a good spokesperson or role model), but you’re delusional if you think trans people were just as notorious in the media before she came around.
I cannot stand Caitlyn but I have to (reluctantly) agree with you. Bringing transgendered people to the forefront of pop culture indisputably normalizes them and that’s always a positive thing IMO. Remember the days before Ellen and Will & Grace? Shows like that absolutely played a role in showing that gay people are just like us (I mean, for those of us who didn’t already understand that).
Lovable, hilarious characters like Jack McFarland helped to show the collective conscious that homosexuality doesn’t define a person, that it is simply one facet of who they are.
So do I think Caitlyn deserves an award? No, not really. I don’t see her as some amazing crusader for LGBT rights, but I do agree that she’s done more good than bad.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/13/us/kricket-nimmons-transgender-surgery.html?_r=0
Some of you may be interested in this recent (and very long) NY Times piece about a transgered woman on her way to full sex reassignment surgery. My guess is that her story is a little more typical than Caitlyn’s, sadly, because it includes abuse, poverty, drugs, sex work, HIV, depression and family disapproval. I wish Caitlyn used her money and fame to help with these issues.
I just read this article. I’m speechless. My heart is broken. What a struggle for that woman.
This is all she has to offer, not how people should support trans indivkduals without her resources who are struggling and maybe don’t lresent as well.
No, just how she knows her ‘role’ and plays it well and how that’s comforting and good.
Also she absolutely gave ammo to people who claim trans people are only pretending to be something they’re not. That really sucks considering the high number of trans individuals who have been killed for ‘faking it’.
I went on to read the Cosmopolitan article and some of the comments there are truly frightening.
It might be that I’m still shaking with anger, but it seems to me Caitlyn is not a real problem to the GLBT community, but the real issue is that society still has many bigots who are saying “he is not worth of respect because he is part of the Kardashian family”, using that as a justification for their irrational hatred.
Seeing so many disgusting comments only because a person likes to wear a dress and makeup is truly depressing. This world is awful.
I do give Caitlyn props for putting her story out and letting the chips fall where they may.
I am struck, however, by how this quote makes her sound like a teen-age girl.
If this is how people feel about her, why is she getting all these awards and so much recognition?
I believe that there are other people more worthy of the awards they gave to her.
there’s definitely an aspect of Caitlyn that is superficial and self-absorbed, but I thought her Time interview was great. I feel it’s a bit unfair to take her task for her comments about presentation, as the same comment would apply to everyone, within the context of their own life. Yes, people *are* more comfortable with a transwoman who presents as more traditionally feminine and does not appear mannish. That’s simply an honest observation on Caitlyn’s part. Any cisgendered woman knows that failing to adhere to standard expectations of feminine appearance also comes at a price, and same can be said of cisgendered men. I just hate the sniping and fault finding. Caitlyn is being Caitlyn, other LGBT spokespeople are themselves. Isn’t that the whole point?
If I would feel the need to please the expectations of other people I would really pity myself. That would be a price I am not willing to pay.
And what about the „presentation“? Life is not an act on stage to please an audience.
No need to shoot the messenger dagdag. How often on this site even do we pile on someone who irritates us – their dress doesn’t fit right, their bangs are too heavy, or whatever sets commenters off? What is that but a thwarted (in a minor way to be sure) expectation
@db
Peace. I get your point and appreciate it.
Conforming to cisnormative beauty standards is a method of self presentation in a world where trans women experience verbal assault, physical abuse and murder. Caring about presentation isn’t vapid it’s an act of survival.
I don’t think any one person is capable of speaking for an entire community. I wish we spent more time making space for trans women to be heard instead of expecting one woman to have flawless opinions.
This is well said but I still wish she would use her money and celebrity to combat some of these issues. She doesn’t have to be perfect but it would be great if she would try a little harder to help transgendered people who are less fortunate than she is. I think for me, I am judging her less on sex/gender issues (as I have no right) and more on socioeconomic ones.
It’s not a matter of survival for someone like Caitlyn, who has access to bodyguards, etc. And she never spoke of it in terms of survival, it was more about looking pretty. If Caitlyn spoke like you just did, people might be more inclined to take her seriously. Sadly, Caitlyn is ill-informed about Trans issues and is in it for the superficial stuff.
Yeah lets be realistic, Caitlyn didn’t even fully grasp how hard it was for others until she had a sit down with the group of trans women who tried to explain what their experience is like compared to her’s.
This isn’t about her survival.
I want to say first that the LGBT community is not unified and is diverse as any other community.
Conforming to cisnormative beauty standards is not the goal of many. The results of the presentation of this goals are hardly ever achieved; money, meaning surgery or access to careful purchased and fitting attire, wigs, expert make up, etc., is not available to most persons and therefore they catch the eye of the public, no matter how they do their presentation.
Feminine men, asexual appearing men, men wearing make up are, in my opinion, are most seen as gay.
That is a man in a dress and it looks like a man in a dress.
I feel like it’s so easy to tear Caitlyn down for being selfish, but isn’t that just another human trait? There are strengths and weaknesses to having her be one of our cultural archetypes for transitioning. Love it or hate it, she’s not perfect! I do wish she would talk more about the ‘gender’ dysphoria, less about the presentation aspect.
‘if you look like a man in a dress you make people uncomfortable’. so offensive. many trans people (in Canada at least) live in poverty but are so committed to their identity that they go forward with their journey without the tools caitlyn has. this lady bugs the hell out of me. privilege much?
I see Caitlyn has already given herself a case of wonk-eye…
GOD GOOD, stupidity and vanity are a dangerous combo.
As a woman born in 1973 I am astonished at how womankind had rebounded from burning bras to having bras surgically implanted. The 80’s were superficial but still promoted working women equality and empowerment. The grunge 90’s helped challenge again the media ideal beauty standards and women’s / lgbt rights. So I hope we are about to swing again to celebrate natural different beauty and character strengths no matter your orientation! Tierd of everyone turning into wax figurines and holding up these crazy head to toe fake versions of themselves as any “presentation”. Real moving features and body types are more attractive than presenting as a melting mannequins no matter who you are. You are more than a just a look or sexual object!
He is as creepy as anything with that gurney mouth, no matter how many dresses, wigs , heels he puts on, he will never be a woman, he looks like a man in drag. Shes a joke like that whole family is, there is not one decent one in the whole bunch. They are all vile.
I think your comment is more vile then any Kardashian or Jenner……….and that is saying a lot. I think they have more morals then you seem to…”he will never be a woman”?! Wtf do you care what she identifies as?!
It says alot about you if you think the Kardashians have any morals, they are vile.
A man can wear a dress. If other people are uncomfortable that’s their issue.
To me, and sorry if this is rude, it just seems like he’s a guy who just desperately wanted to play dress up! There is nothing that Jenner is contributing to but himself and his delusion. I feel for other transgender people who have to go through hell, while he’s sitting on his shiny pink million $ pedestal. Totally mental.
Does Caitlyn not know that there are biological women out there who are just not very feminine looking by nature? Should they get bigger boobs, butts, and hips to look more feminine so others don’t feel “uncomfortable”? Does she not remember the criticism Khloe has gotten for years? Wait nm…we all see what Khloe has now done to her body.
Ugh. A transphobic trans person.
Lord, this woman. Only in America.
Caitlyn, formerly Bruce Jenner—can you just GO AWAY please?
Why make an ass-hat statement like this when all one needs to do is peep your knees, feet hands, legs and face to emote that uncomfortable response??
Even with all the surgeries and money you have spent, Honey—can still tell you were once a Man.
And, no I am not judging. And I fully support all LBGT folks. FULLY!
Just sayin’,,,,,, Shush up and go away Please. Sooooooo self-absorbed this one is—she/he forgot to be a proper parent to her/his brood of kids! How does that happen? Oh, right—it happens when one is so selfish and self-absorbed they can actually check out of being a parent all together to concentrate on, (what else) THEMSELVES !
Thank You
Holly Woodlawn passed away last week. She was formerly Andy Warhol’s “Muse and Star” according to the New York Times. She had a very hard life, both before and after her “Fame” had faded. I believe she always had the right attitude about it though. Don’t know if Bruce/ Caitlyn had met Holly, but if she did, the lessons Holly would offer could have really opened Caitlyn’s eyes..
1986. I lived on the outskirts of a sleepy town. While shopping for nourishment for tiny person, a human being came in, with obvious masculine features,( shadow of beard) , wearing a wig and dress. I wasnt repulsed, but alarmed . I remember thinking, this person is brave as hell, as someone is going to take offense and pummel. This has stayed with me all these years.
And Caitlyns statement brought it all back.
There are many,many people out there, who are without the privilege of having everything just handed to them, to help with transitioning. They are men trapped, still looking like a man in a dress.. And can only do this transformation in little stages, Economics play a huge part.
So when Caitlyn spews this shit out of her mouth, I can only imagine how hurt and desperate trans people feel, as they can only do so much at a time, and the lengths they go to, just to get to certain stages. And that takes a very long time.
It really makes me angry.
What a hideous comment. As many have said, many trans people can’t afford cosmetic surgery, or even basic hormonal treatments. She’s also shaming gender non-conforming people. If a cis man wants to wear a dress in public, that’s just fine, or should be. The problem is the people who are uncomfortable, not the man in the dress. Caitlyn seems to be siding with “the moral majority” who are uncomfortable, not the gender non-conforming person who can’t pass as a cis woman.
I have a huge problem with the focus of some in the trans advocacy community of encouraging “passing” as the highest good in the trans community. Emphasizing passing is just a way to justify ignorance. It should be okay to not be able to pass as cis. The focus should be educating people to be accepting of non-passing trans people, not trying to get all trans people to pass as well as they can and shaming people who can’t or don’t want to pass.
so in the world youre going to have people (all walks of life on various poles of progress in the humanity decent person doing remarkable things scale)
Thos caitlyn is trans…. she is vapid… and that happens
I can’t expect every black person to be this articulate philosophical (uplifting the race and culture) being….. for every Viola Davis you get an Anthony Mackie and etc…
just shrug it off and read man to superman…. an excellent book that tells we as humans of different races and such all have good an bad apples…. i imagine this can all translate to sub cultures and movements like gay and trans people…. for every prolific progressive trans there WILL BE a caitlyn talking about dresses and ish…
the TRUE issues he is Caityln’s vapidness is being rewarded or overlooked BECAUSE hse is transitioning or changed genders….. she gets the woman of the year award… interview after selfish ass interview …. she needs to step back and realized that she is becoming a joke… and her transition a punchline and storyline on the most shallow stop
I don’t see why it should matter if there is “a man in a dress”. It’s supposed to be about acceptance of who you are. If she identifies as a woman even though she has the body of a man, she is free to do that, to be herself. The same should be true for another trans person who identifies as a woman but doesn’t feel it necessary to dress a certain way, or perhaps simply can’t afford to be so “put together”. She is missing the most important part of her own story – acceptance. I would go so far as to say, let people feel uncomfortable, it’s about who you are, not about others’ reactions to you.
caitlin was raised as a privileged, white male; her attitude towards women are frequently representative of this.
Caitlyn needs new priorities. And she needs to come down to earth. While I often think she looks great, I also often think she looks like a man in a dress. And so what? You’re never going to please all the people, so just be yourself. But -tame your ego for your sake & everyone else’s please.
Said it when Bruce’s transition became public and unfortunately true. Bruce was not getting away from the Kardashians but instead wanted to be a Khardashian including low level parenting skills. Yes..man or woman is not the issue for me. Same super focus on looks and image and “attention addiction” with a capital K.
Narcissists don’t make good role models. The End.
Just because I’m a compulsive editor-Trans people are technically cisgender; they identify with one of the categories of the socially imposed gender binary, just not the one that “corresponds” to their biological sex. They are not flouting standardized gender roles, just identifying with the “opposite” role than the one assigned to them at birth.
What? That’s not what the words mean. There is no way someone who’s trans is technically cis. That’s like saying left is technically right. They’re opposites.
Trans = Latin prefix meaning “across from” or “on the other side of”. Cis = Latin prefix meaning “on this side of”.
Cisgender = someone with a match between the gender they were assigned at birth, their bodies, and their gender identity. Transgender = someone who does NOT have a match between assigned gender at birth, body and gender identity.
Post-op trans folk don’t become cis because no matter what surgical changes or birth certificate modifications, they were still assigned a different gender at birth … they might have a body/gender match now, but they were not born with it.
What I think you’re possibly reaching for is “heteronormative” (translation “normal for there to be two”). If so, you have a point. Transition can indeed be heteronormative if people talk/act like it’s okay to be male, and okay to be trans female, but not okay to be a “guy in a dress”.
But you can accept that gender is non-binary AND be trans. Just because you think gender is a multi-faceted spectrum doesn’t mean that you can’t say “I’m assigned at one end of this spectrum, and I’d feel more comfortable on the other end”. So I’d be careful about making sweeping statements suggesting that all trans folk are 100% behind binary gender roles. It might not be that simple.
I’ve successfully managed NOT to watch any show that stars Jenner or the Kardashians and precious little of anything they show up in as guests. Life is too short to waste on such toxic narcissists.
That said, what has messed me up when I have run into random clips of Jenner is that I see a woman, but then she speaks and I hear Bruce again. It really messes up my pronouns – every time. She-He – whatever. I wish they’d all go away. I know about all of them against my will.
Caitlin is so completely self absorbed and vapid, yet she gets a soapbox for her opinion on how to be Trans. How dare she. She has no idea what it takes, what it costs for mere mortals without celebrity money and status to “present” as she deems appropriate. Hard to pay for surgery when you can’t find a job to hire you, hard to keep looking pretty when assault is a very real fear and reality, hard to confidently walk in public when you’ve been disowned and turned away by family and friends and suffering depression alone. But God forbid Trans don’t have their look on fleek. Seriously, f@#k her.
He still looks like a man in a dress to me.
I think that Bruce, just like Caitlyn, never cared about anyone except himself and his own perceived best interests; Caitlyn is the same way exactly. That’s what bothers me most about her winning the award: she doesn’t seem to care AT ALL about the plight of other (far poorer and often minority, as well) transgender people, that was evident enough to pain me on her show. (Which, I admit, I watched 3 episodes of: more than too much!) Caitlyn, for all her own many faults, is extremely judgmental of others, and I got the distinct impression that she was disdainful and/ or disinterested in the other transgender women on her show, especially the ones who had done sex work to make a living. She has done nothing INTENTIONALLY to help the transgender community; it was all about her own freedom of expression, fame, and sexual identity, and she couldn’t care a lot less about the prejudices and tragedies plaguing so many transgender people today. If she did, she would have made an effort to understand the other (more typical) trans women on her show and to reflect on her own journey in a way which made it not just important to reflect on the conditions other transgender people face, but necessary. Instead, she puts a false, misleading lightness onto the transgender community’s struggles by stating that the hardest (to her, and most important) part of being a trans woman is deciding which clothes and makeup to wear. The whole thing is all about what Caitlyn wants–more fame or, at the very least, infamy, money, and extended celebrity status–not about the actual transgender community as a whole or even in part. I have a transgender friend and a transgender teacher who loathe her full heartedly, and think she has done far more harm than good, and that any good has been only entirely incidental, not in the least bit intentional.
I was born in L.A. but I have family in the Czech Republic who, interestingly, find Caitlyn to be “another Hollywood freak”, not an admirable or even captivating spokesperson or transgender figure, or character. Just another California “weirdo”, certainly not remotely educational or enlightening to them on transgender people in any way. I believe, from my experience with people in the Czech Republic, as well as on the east coast, that her fame-seeking shallowness, self absorption, and lack of strong character has caused people to view transgender people in general in an even less positive light, possibly–or at least deemed them as even more unsympathetic than ever. (And for her to be AGAINST gay marriage? Does this woman reflect on ANYONE not directly associated with her own superficial little life?) Caitlyn herself has made no progress at all for the transgender community, though she certainly was in a position where she could have helped. That’s what makes me angriest about her award, and any other undeserved acclaim she receives.