Spoilers for Game of Thrones.
I don’t have the nervous energy and anxiety for the final episodes of Game of Thrones, not like I had for the Long Night. I was a nervous wreck this time last week. But now… I mean, I’m absolutely sure that some big-name characters are going to die, but they’re not going to die by ice zombie, so whatever. War is hell, political problems, ninja assassins, whatever dude.
Anyway, I’ve been avoiding talking about the “conversations” around Arya Stark all week because I just don’t want to give sucky misogynist babies any time. There’s one conversation that goes like this: the writers tasking Arya Stark with killing the Night King is unbelievable (as in, not believable) therefore Arya is a Mary Sue. A Mary Sue is a female character with no faults, a woman who does everything perfectly. The only thing I can say to that – besides screaming into the abyss – is that Arya didn’t do everything perfectly or flawlessly in The Long Night. She thought she was prepared, but when the ice zombies came, she killed a lot of them but then she got scared. Go back and watch when the Hound and Beric found her – she was screaming her guts out and she was scared out of her mind. She wasn’t No One, she was little Arya Stark who couldn’t fight against a swarm of zombies. She was only able to get it together after Melisandre gave her a pep talk.
This “Arya is a Mary Sue” thing goes hand in hand with this theory: that Jon Snow wasn’t stupidly screaming at Ice Viserion for no f–king reason, he was actually screaming “GO!” at Arya, because he, like, knew Arya was there in the Godswood? Therefore the sucky misogynist babies found a way to give Jon credit for killing the Night King – if Jon hadn’t yelled “GO!” to Arya, she never would have killed the NK? Or something, I don’t speak lady-hater.
Meanwhile, there’s a contingent of GoT fans who now believe Arya’s fate has been sealed – she was tasked with saving the Seven Kingdoms by knifing the Night King, therefore she’ll probably die in the next episode. I’m serious – that’s the justification, that if someone does something awesome in one episode, they’re totally going to die soon. Of course, it doesn’t help matters that Drake put a CURSE on Arya by giving her a shoutout at the Billboard Awards. DAMN YOU DRAKE.
My take: Arya isn’t going to die in Episode 4. But maybe in Episode 5? IDK.
Photos courtesy of HBO/Game of Thrones.
I haven’t even read the article yet, first I just wanted to say (to the bros): GIVE ME A F*CKING BREAK. STOP F*CKING CKING.
Women can’t do anything cool without bros trying to take credit. It’s so annoying.
Any time a female character does something heroic, weak, little men yell “Mary Sue.” Like the writer said, Arya was scared quite a lot during the battle and ran and hid. That’s not Mary Sue behavior. Arya’s also got that mass murder thing in her past…but she killed the Night King! Suck it, weak, little men!
GoT bros have been doing stuff like this for a while. See also how they claim it was Samwell Tarly who discovered that Rhaegar Targaryen got an annulment. (hence he could have remarried, he probably didn’t kidnap and rape Lyanna after all, and their child together could be his legitimate Targaryen heir instead of a bastard.)
In reality it was Gilly who actually discovered it, when she was reading one of the tomes Sam ‘borrowed’ from the Citadel. And Sam kind of shushed her because he was busy concentrating on important Sam stuff when she asked “what’s an annulment?”
Sam is the one who pieced together what that meant, along with Bran, sure. But he was not the one who *discovered* the information. And no, bro-dudes, we can’t assume “well, Sam would have read it, eventually so Gilly seeing it first doesn’t count” because there is no way of knowing that…plus we don’t have to assume anything, because the show actually showed us Gilly read it.
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/08/game-of-thrones-gilly-book-rhaegar-annulled-marriage-lyanna-stark-elia-jon-snow-not-a-bastard-eastwatch?verso=true
I’m still not even sure Arya is Arya muchless a “Mary Sue.” I still think this might be The Waif.
Bros are just mad it wasn’t Jon or The Hound. I think it makes sense it was Arya. The Night King never saw her coming and she’s fast with a blade, as we’ve seen.
I have a theory that Arya will kill Cersei but will immediately be killed by The Mountain who will in turn be killed by The Hound.
If Arya somehow lives, I do think she’ll return to Braavos.
ooooh good theory re: Arya/Cersei/Mountain/Hound!!!
I love that theory! Not love it like I want her to die obviously, love it because yes it makes so much sense. The writers have been showing how much the Hound cares about her for a reason, for sure. I’m not sure if they’ll let her kill Cersei, though. I could definitely see her attempting to, but being killed by the Mountain first.
@Jennifer
She owes Melisandre some green eyes to shut forever. I think she’ll do it. As we’ve learned, Valerian tongue tends to be unisex. “Valonqar” maybe didn’t necessarily mean it would be Cersei’s “Valonqar.”
She already shut green eyes. Y’all don’t remember Littlefinger?
He has gray eyes.
Arya, Sansa, and Tyrion have been the survivors throughout the series, I think they will all live.
He has gray green eyes, like a cat. It’s noted both in game of thrones and a clash of kings.
Still gray. The green eyes are Cersei’s who apparently has eyes like emeralds.
I don’t watch the show…that is, the BF watches and I will watch parts of it when I’m in the room.
my theory is that Jamie is going to kill Cersei, and Arya will get the throne.
(I don’t even know if Arya is in line for it, though…?)
Arya is not at all in line for the throne and it would be completely out of line for her character to take it. Technically, if she was pregnant with Gendry’s baby that baby would have an argument to be in line for the throne as the bastard of Robert’s bastard, but has a pretty low legitimacy given the other people who are also vying for the throne.
Or Arya could be Jaqen H’ghar
That I find less likely because she had a conversation with him before leaving The House of Black and White.
Where she showed him the Waif’s face.
A woman just wants a man to show up soon.
She could have taken off her face.
Anyone who is “Team Stark” should see/remember one very important mantra from Ned:
“When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives.”
He was telling them that they can’t try to work alone, they need to work together when winter comes.
I don’t think that anything the Starks (or Dany) did in the Battle of Winterfell was random or by chance. Jon would never just kind of run around doing nuffing. Seems to me that the plan was for Jon to keep the Night King’s focus on him (which would be what he’d expect), long enough to get Arya set up to be where she needed to be…let the NK get to Bran, just in time for Arya to step in and kill the NK with Bran’s dagger. Dany was very obviously providing cover for Jon. Even having Arya sneaking around instead of diving head-long into the battle to save her home was out of character for her.
Anything other than that just seems like shabby writing to me.
Whether a man or woman killed the bad guy is just such asinine bullsh*t. And I love that GoT agrees!
@theheat, this is the best analysis of the episode I’ve read, and ITA with all of it, adding that if Sansa was the strategist, it would redeem her from that cringey awful moment when Arya hands her a dagger and she demurs.
That battle was total chaos and as hard as he tried to get to the NK, Jon ended up pinned down in the courtyard by dying Viserion. I do not think the Stark siblings had a special plan. I don’t think it’s “shabby” writing, either, to make a scene of unending horror totally chaotic. That was the whole point, they were totally overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of the dead. The White Walkers always represented death, and I think, generally, it is very hard for people to cope with the chaotic and random nature of death. Everyone is looking for an explanation for why things happened the way they did, but there is no explanation. They planned as best they could, but at the end of the day, death is random and survival is pure chance (albeit, aided by convenient writing in the case of the main characters). Jon fully intended to fight the Night King himself, it just didn’t work out that way as he got totally overwhelmed. His plans did not matter in the face of all that death.
ETA: Of course Sansa demurs when handed a weapon, she’s a politician, not a fighter. She has learned a lot but absolutely zero of it has been fight training. Why would she all of a sudden be prepared to go out there and kill zombies? Arya has been training for years and she still had a meltdown. Sansa wasn’t ready for that, she said as much in the crypts.
Since the producers disapproved of Sophie’s tattoo, some feel it’s a sign that no other Starks die.
Algernon,
Sansa wasn’t being asked to fight. Arya gave her the dagger as she was heading to the crypt, so all Sansa had to do was say thank you, not “I don’t know how this thing works.” But – after I posted my earlier comment – my SO said he’s pretty sure that scene was them playing out a moment from their childhood, a form of affection in what may have been their last moment together.
@ bettyrose
The scene was a reference to Jon giving Arya Needle in the first season. Arya said almost the exact same thing. The scene with Sansa shows how much Arya has grown and changed, while being a fun call back to season one.
All I meant was, of course Sansa is unsure of the knife. It’s not her milieu.
They also originally shot where Tyrion and Sansa go after wrights after they dive out from behind the tomb, but it got cut from the final edit.
Arya literally spent a season training to be an assassin who sneaks around instead of charging head first. How is that out of character?
“When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives.”
THIS!!!!! thank you TheHeat, I really don’t know if I believe that Jon Snow saw Arya passing by and told her to go, but I do believe the Starks, Jon included finally understand that in order to survive they must stand together, they are never as strong as when they are united, and after all their individual suffering and thinking they would never see each other again I honestly don’t think they would intentionally do anything to jepardize each other ( battle fighting is different).
whoever is saying Arya is gonna die, please don’t speak your negative juju into existence. NOT TODAY! NOT TODAY AND NOT EVER!! geez, if she dies after killing the freaking night king I will be so pissed! I dont care about Jon or Dany or anyone else dying (though I hope my Tormund makes it) or honestly at this point who ends up on the throne, but Arya must live!
This is my new favorite theory!!
Why would the waif be interested in any of Arya’s vengeance, then? She would not have cared at all about killing the Freys. Or even going to back to winterfell. I don’t think it makes sense for Arya to be the waif. I don’t think there are any more crazy secrets in this show, it’s all pretty much what you see is what you get at this point.
@Manda
I remember something Arya said last season about becoming the person when she puts on their face. Maybe The Waif put on her face and “became” Arya and since Arya prayed to The Many-Faced God pretty hard she is obligated to finish what Arya started.
@ Lucia
Agree to disagree then. I think that this would be more plausible if there was more time, I just don’t think they are going to open up any weird storylines. We shall see!! I must say, I am very curious as to what will happen in the time that is left 🙂
God I hope not, I absolutely could not stand the waif. That would be some serious bullshit.
“God I hope not, I absolutely could not stand the waif. That would be some serious bullshit.”
Agreed. I don’t think the theory is that far-fetched, but I hope it isn’t correct. I mean, the wearing of faces is a really cool parlour trick, and it allows for some cool twists……….but hopefully they got that out of their system with the Freys, as THAT was EPIC.
I enjoy reading fan theories, because I like the show and fan theories lead to some fun discussions. But then I get worried when people have theories that I don’t like, yet know are possible.
Melisandre told Arya she would close brown eyes, green eyes and blue eyes. Hasn’t Arya killed a lot of people by now? I don’t think it matters if we can name a green eyed person she already killed. She has already killed LOTS of people, probably with all those eye colors. And I don’t think that takes Cersei out of the running. Though, I personally don’t think she will kill Cersei. It makes sense for her to be the most ABLE to, but there are a few others that would be more poetic…like either of her brothers. I think Arya wearing Jaime’s face to do it would have been amazing…but now that we have all considered it a possibility, it seems less cool.
I can’t stand that whole storyline. Please no more waif or A Man.
I hope Jaime kills Cersei. The prophecy that her little brother will kill her is one of the many reasons Cersei hates Tyrion. Having it be Jaime all along is just so delicious.
Wait, did they really want The Hound?? That would make absolutely no sense, there are 20 other characters that deserve to kill the Night King more than the Hound.
Not today!!!
🙂
If Arya dies, I’m gonna take out some people myself! Good thing I don’t have a sword!
I have A LOT if issues with the last episodes, but this isn’t one of them.
And while there is a very valid conversation about the decision for Ayra killing the NK, nothing about it should include this misogynist “Mary Sue” bullsh*t.
Yep, Arya would 100% be my first choice for the NK killing if they hadn’t spent 8 forking seasons building up the prophecy storyline. She’s the most qualified for the job, hands down.
Yes, agreed. My issue with Arya killing the NK – if I even have an issue, which I’m not sure I do, lol (I HEAR MYSELF), is that it definitely seemed like the show was leading up to a final showdown between good and evil – ice and fire, if you will – so either dany or Jon would be the one to take the NK down.
But in terms of the actual killing, and arya being the one to do it – nah. As soon as it happened, I screeched in joy, and then was just like, OF COURSE! It makes sense!
Yep, after all the misdirection on the show and in the books, Arya killing the Night King was one of the series best moments.
I have a theory but I’m not really knowledgeable about all the prophecies and backgrounds etc etc that many others know…
Arya and Gendry will end up on the throne. Gendry has the bloodline and Arya has the smarts and passion and drive.
Just a theory!!! Or, maybe just what I would love to see as an ending. Arya with a sexy husband, running that shit like a boss WOMAN.
Oh, this would be a dream come true. Which is precisely why I’m not getting my hopes up 🙁 then again, I honestly didn’t see Arya killing the NK coming at all, even though it made so much sense.
I hope the bloodthirsty writers of this show can restrain themselves when it comes to this couple. They are just sooo cute together.
I’m also shipping Jon and Sansa. They have far more chemistry together than Jon and Daenerys have (amongst many, many other reasons).
Arya would be miserable on the throne. She didn’t even want to be a lady, which she was born into. If she survives, I think she ends up in the new King’s Guard (or Queen’s Guard).
I don’t know why people are wishing her onto the throne when she expressly said in the first season that life is not for her and she wanted to be a knight. Being queen would be the worst outcome for Arya.
I really want her to end up as the head of the King’s Guard. That would be a job she would love.
But she didn’t want to be a lady because she was such a tomboy at the time. And she didn’t even like boys, so the thought of being a wife and mother was unappealing. She could be like Lady Lyanna’s mother – a strong warrior who’s also a leader and a mother. Now, I didn’t believe any of this was possible until I saw her jump in bed with Gendry. She’s also apparently kissing Gendry next episode, so she seems open to a romance.
I like the thought of Gendry being legitimized and getting Storm’s End in reward for his service. If Arya married Gendry, it would fulfill Robert’s wish of his son marrying Ned’s daughter. Arya could dress however she likes, and can even train their soldiers.
I read about this yesterday and was appalled. I still can’t grasp what the hell a Mary Sue is. I’d never heard this definition before and the explanation I found on Lainey was so non-sensical that I couldn’t get the answers I was looking for.
A Mary Sue is basically a female character who has no flaws, learns incredibly hard skills quickly for no reason, and always saves the day (usually single handedly). The character is very one dimensional and it makes the story boring. It’s a poor way to write a character and makes their story incredibly boring. However, misogynists use it whenever they don’t like that a woman is doing something they don’t believe women should be capable of.
A Mary Sue is basically an incel code word for anything heroic done by a female that they want to diminish. And now the bros have picked up this word. Misogyny at its highest.
There’s also a male version called Gary Sue. I believe Daryl of The Walking Dead is a Gary Sue.
Men are usually called Gary Stu, actually.
This’s just too ridiculous. Jon has been having his ass saved by women since day one. If Dany hadn’t gone all Dracarys after they lost the Dothraki, more people would have died because he wanted to wait. Unsullied died protecting the retreat and Melisandre almost did when lighting up the trenches with magic, because Dany was lost in the fog, while John was literally sitting on a dragon looking at everything happening right next to him. People act like he is this big hero, amazing soldier, but truth is Arya is much more trained and skilled he will ever be.
And Sansa saved him at the Battle of the Bastards.
I understand people grappling with the outcome of the long night because the show keeps setting Jon up for big, important things and then not delivering. I read one explanation that he represents the “chosen one” trope and GRRM is using him to subvert that trope, that he will never actually deliver on his promise. That makes sense to me, it fits with why he never really accomplishes anything he sets out to accomplish. All his plans break down and other people have to save him constantly. If you consider him a chosen one who will not actually do the thing, Jon’s stupidity makes a lot of sense.
Sansa saved his dumb ass at the Battle of the Bastards too.
Sign. Not again. To be clear: Sansa did not “save” Jon at the Battle of the Bastards. They won the battle despite Sansa, not because of her. Sansa lied to Jon about her source of information, and she deliberately withheld information about the Vale. Many loyal men were killed in that battle, which apparently was fine with Sansa — just so SHE could be seen riding in with more soldiers at the last minute. Backstabbing people is NOT “saving” them. And the people of the North know who saved them, that’s why news got down all the way to Hot Pie. And why the North named Jon their King. But yeah, I’m a woman so I would like to think female characters are smart and competent too –but the show doesn’t know how to write Sansa in a way that makes her smart, they only show her undermining others. That does not equal smart.
I don’t think Sansa is the smartest or best, but I do think she is smarter than Jon. She told him that his plans to defeat Ramsay wouldn’t work and he kept shooting her down, the person who knew Ramsay the most. She had no voice for so long, in Kings Landing and in Winterfell, and he was another one who didn’t acknowledge her opinion or tried to understand the enemy better. She contacted the Vale but had no idea they would come. Do you seriously think they were waiting behind the bushes until Jon was “almost” getting killed just to look like she saved the day? They arrived at the nick of time. She had the most to lose, after what she went through with the Boltons. Don’t confuse her desperate attempt of survival with hubris, just because doesn’t make Jon look good.
So yes, she did save Jon. And he was named King because they thought Bran was dead, otherwise, he would be the one, for being a legitimate son of Ned.
I had had similar feelings at one point – it just seemed like they were setting her up to be nearly untouchable. But my feelings were more general concern that it COULD go that way, not that it had.
Douchebros will be douchebros, though.
I had said something like “you know who was the real MVP in that episode?” before my husband went on a very passionate “YES. ARYA” rant haha. My argument was in favor of little Lyanna though – who didn’t have assassin training, who was a little girl, and who would never have expected something of her men that she wouldn’t do herself. She was an absolute champ – and I think she was just such a fantastic character – especially when she was only supposed to be in one episode originally.
But I do concede that Arya killed it (ha!) and I’ve always been super proud of her as well. I just couldn’t believe the kind of heroics that little Lyanna Mormont pulled – she had been my favorite for quite a while, and losing her was upsetting. But at least they made her go out an absolute badass.
I agree. The Lyanna moment is very touching because she was able to kill the giant through sheer bravery. No super, magicky training needed. She reminds me of what Arya used to be.
Both….it can be both – bravery and super magicky training. Arya at the beginning of the battle was both brave and skilled, and then she got overwhelmed and lost her nerve. It took the Hound and Beric stepping in when she was beset by wights and the pep talk from Melisandre to shore her up and let her tap into her bravery again. It took incredible skills, developed through years of training, and a Valerian steel dagger, for Arya to take down the NK. But it took bravery for her to even be willing to try.
LM is awesome though. In so many ways.
I think many of these hysterical knee-jerking fans are going to feel quite dumb by the end of the series.
Thing is, the closer we come to the end of the series, the more upset the hardcore fans are that their particular theory didn’t get chosen. The series could have the most brilliant ending and a huge number of people would still claim its shit and totally ruined because they had a different headcannon they were so invested in. Can you imagine any of them being like, “ok I had something else in mind but this actually works better”? Haha of course not. Part of me thinks this is why GRRM is in no hurry to publish those last two books either. Why get caught up in all that drama? Just leave it as it is and let the fandom develop and discuss their myriad of theories until the end of time.
I agree that the hardcore fans are just pissed that their theories didn’t pan out. Some of the criticism is over the top and they simply are not open to analyzing the actual outcome and reflecting on pass events and clues that lead to that outcome. Also, we’re never getting those last two books. I never finished the last one and A Feast for Crows was awful, I really struggled to finish it.
Similar things have happened as other shows have come to a close.
Just look at the OTT rants that came from some BBC Sherlock ‘fans’ when the last episode of that series didn’t end with John and Sherlock holding hands, kissing and declaring their undying love for one another.
Bros think every freaking woman character is a Mary Sue when she’s too powerful for their liking. They think Rey from Star Wars is a Mary Sue even though she’s essentially been on the same trajectory as Luke Skywalker, but somehow it’s different. LOLOL.
Yeah, I have tons of complaints about the storytelling and plot, along with character development and characterization lately. But this ain’t it. LOL. This one actually makes sense when you think about it due to all of Arya’s training. I will say though that there were clearly some major plot holes to get her position to kill The Night King; but her being the one to do it is fine by me.
The Mary Sue bit started trending on Twitter within an hour of the episode and it is absolutely ridiculous coming from anyone who had watched the show for 8 seasons or read the books. Arya has been training since the very first episode for that exact moment. She even had used or practiced the knife drop trick she used to kill the NK in earlier episodes. It was a surprise that it was Arya we saw, last minute, jump into the frame to save her brother, just because she wasn’t there a moment earlier and the scene looked like nobody could save Bran after poor Theon went down. (Theon, meanwhile, was the only person the NK actually killed personally.) But not a surprise that Arya could do it. We’ve been watching her kill people since episode 9 of the first season. She’s been training for this. She’s an assassin.
I don’t think they’re using the term Mary Sue correctly. I’ve learned that a Mary Sue is basically a perfect version of the author. The author writes this savior version of themselves into the story, kind of like the journalist from the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo series.
If anyone on GOT is a Mary Sue, it is Jon freakin Snow. Everyone is compromised and flawed, except for him.
AGREED!
To be honest though, she may not be a Mary Sue but I really hate that she killed the NK. It wasn’t her kill, and her character has degraded since Bravos. She shouldn’t even be that skilled. Her “training” consisted of washing bodies, pretending to be other people and getting beat by a stick. She shouldn’t have been able to beat the Waif, a highly skilled assassin with years of training, and she shouldn’t have survived the stabbing.
The NK was all for Jon and Bran. Hodor, Summer, Jojen, they all sacrificed themselves to help Bran so he could go against the NK. And then Arya just jumps right in.
D&D stated that they decided 3 Years ago that she would kill the KN because it subverts expectaions. That’s not good writing. Arya is way too OP because she’s a favorite.
Did they say “decided”? I heard that they “knew”, which can be interpreted as them actually deciding, or having being told by GRRM that Arya was the one doing the deed. They did not elaborate on that. Could go either way.
I think it’s Sam, tbh. I like him, but he’s pretty useless plot wise. They don’t need him to reveal Jon’s parentage, they have Bran for that. They don’t need him to kill a WW, they have Bran to tell them how to do it. They don’t need him to spend the time at the Citadel scraping greyscale off Jorah’s dick, Jorah didn’t really contribute anything at the end except his dramatic death scene. Sam has scraped by with that plot armor.
GRRM has said Sam is basically him in the story, so he is a Mary Sue! I do think he matters, though, because I think he’s the one “telling” the story at some point in the future.
Oh that’s interesting. He’s sort of an innocent witness to all of the mean power struggles.
I came late to game of thrones, but knew a lot about it because it’s so pervasive. My husband and I started watching it together around Christmas and now watch the new episodes together. We both want to know what people see in Jon Snow. I was expecting something great from him the way people spoke of him. But he’s a weak character who is always getting saved by women (Ygritte, Sansa, Dany). And if he isn’t saved by a woman, he gets killed and then is resurrected by a woman. If Jon Snow had killed the NK, he would have dumb lucked his way into it. You know nothing, Jon Snow. Truer words never spoken.
Jon is like Ned: brave, honorable, handsome, likeable, loving, inspiring, and dumb as rocks. I like the idea that someone suggested upthread that Jon’s whole point as a character is to undermine the “Chosen One” trope. We can see why people want to follow Jon Snow b/c he has all the traits of a leader, but we also see how the ideal masculine leader probably doesn’t see a lot of the underhanded strategy being deployed all around him and against him, and can’t organize similarly tricky strategies to fend all of that off. In other words, the ideal heroic male leader isn’t good at the Game of Thrones. The story is about how it takes different kinds of heroes, including ppl who aren’t usually allowed to be the heroes at all (especially women and girls, but also disabled people, dwarves, rape survivors, PTSD sufferers), to win the game. The lone male hero is never going to be enough on his own.
Many GOT fans see Jon Snow as a flawless hero much like Aragorn. Personally for me it is the character I hate the most, it is completely unconscious and therefore makes stupid decisions that does not help but makes things even worse. And he spends his life being saved by other characters, the majority of whom are women (Ygritte, Mellissandre, Sansa, Daenerys and now Arya).
When he started running at the NK, all by himself in a field of corpses, I actually stood up and screamed “NOT AGAIN YOU FOOL!”
You know what struck me when he did that? The fact that Arya wouldn’t have needed to be 3 feet away from him to kill him. She could have thrown a dragon glass dagger 🗡 at his back and hit the target (the way she did in episode 2).
Arya was really the only character remotely prepared to take him on.
Well, he was stuck there after his dragon went down, so what else was he supposed to do? He was trying to get to the NK before he raised the dead again. Sure, it was a long way to run, but he had to try. Was he supposed to stand there in the middle of the battle field and watch?
I was yelling at the writers at that point. “Oh, come on! You bring him back from the dead, only to be torn apart by a bunch of ice zombies??? WTF?!”
I know, I know I get what y’all are saying. He’s brave and all that, but he’s like another Frodo. The thing is that he IS flawed. His whole life he suffered a bastard’s life shunned by a royal bitch. You heard him with Sansa, always in the back sulking. Alone. So all his decisions come from a singular zone of mental space. He’s just not that smart lol.
I actually think Jon Snow has a death wish/borderline suicidal since his resurrection from the dead. After Dany’s reaction to him being her nephew, he really seems more so than before.
Yeah yelling at an ice dragon was stupid but I also think there’s a lot more there.
I admittedly only watched one season of GOT, but I didn’t get the love for Jon Snow AT ALL. He was such a dull character lol. I don’t do well with characters like him. I need a little excitement.
So maybe he is flawed after all! Obviously too dumb to create a strategic battle plan.
I haven’t read the books, but those who have say Jon’s POV is almost entirely in his head, so it’s hard to translate that onto the TV screen.
My Jon Snow hate started in like season 3 and I’ve never been able to get over it. He’s so whiny. He flops around like the resident emo kid complaining about how he doesn’t want to be special.
Difference though is that Aragorn knew what he was doing. John doesn’t – he doesn’t stop and listen to what other people are telling him and because of that people get killed.
Yes, because having spent the majority of her formative years training to be an assassin did not, in any way, qualify her as one of the most dangerous people at Winterfell, and one of the few with the actual skill set to off someone like the Night King.
I’m not calling them bros anymore, I’m calling them for what they are – misogynists.
This ^ right here. No one else can do what she does.
Clearly I love Arya, but she didn’t spend the majority of her time training to be an assassin. She spent most of it travelling as a boy trying to survive, and then riding around on The Hound’s horse. Even her assassin training was almost exclusively washing dead bodies and cleaning.
OK if you object to the word “training” how about this “Arya spent her formative years on the path to becoming an assassin”
Even as a child in Winterfell she was working on her skills with weapons (S1E1) in Kings Landing she trained on swordplay, footwork, evasive maneuvers, mental preparation (“What do we say to death? Not today”) She used those skills to get away when the Lannister’s men came for her, killing someone on the way. During her time on the road with the Hound, she picked up more skills – brute force, stealth attacks, choosing your battles, knowing when to cut and run and how to just survive, during her brief time in service to Tywin Lannister, she practiced biding your time close proximity to her mortal enemies, resisting the urge to strike when the odds of success were low, and then finally she traveled to Braavos to start her Faceless Man training, which gave her advanced level skills, improved physical and mental stamina and galvanized who she was and what was important to her. “A girl is Arya Stark of Winterfell and I’m going home.” And once she was back at Winterfell, she continued to train as a fighter, facing off with Brienne. It might not have been 24 x 7 knife, dagger and sword training, but she’s been picking up and improving skills that lead to her being an effective assassin since we met her in the very first episode.
Ha this is a much nicer version of the rant I had with my sister about stupid misogynistic incels.
#teamaryaforlife
Having said that I’m now bracing myself for episode 5, which is the rumoured kings landing Cersei vs everyone fight. I’m sure we’ll lose some beloved characters then
I don’t think its that serious. The episode left a lot of open questions as they always do and people are speculating. I am undecided on whether or not Jon noticed Arya but if anything that theory proves that Jon wasn’t the man for the job. He would strut in there swinging his sword around and die quicker than Theon did. Arya was needed because she’s a trained assassin and can move in undetected plus no one, not even the NK would be expecting her.
Jon wasn’t the man for the job and that is the resounding point in every bloody theory out there.
Arya will survive the series. If you’ve read a lot of what GRRM had to say about her that would pretty much be the only thing you could say about this story to any degree of certainty.
Jon was nowhere near the Godswood when Arya killed the NK. Jon was in a courtyard with walls and buildings and lots of other people and Viserion knocking everything and everyone over.
Bran was in an open area with the tree, no walls, and Theon with the white walkers surrounding them, the NK advancing on them.
People tend to forget, no doubt based on his more recent cowardice and his degradation, but back in Seasons 1 and 2, Theon was considered a tough and skilled fighter, better than Jon or Robb. He showed those skills protecting Bran and taking out all those wights, long after the other Iron borne were dead. He ran out of arrows and only had that one staff left when he charged the NK.
“Arya was needed because she’s a trained assassin and can move in undetected plus no one, not even the NK would be expecting her.”
I also think they set us up for this when Arya sneaks up on Jon in the Godswood in episode 1 or 2….and he says “How did you sneak up on me?” They wanted to remind us of Arya’s training. She snuck up on the NK and he ALMOST killed her. She dropped the dagger, and re-caught it…another “trick” she was shown doing in an earlier season.
Great points!
They’re just pissed because in the Game of Thrones world, women rule. They rule politically. They rule spiritually. They rule north, south, east and west. They assimilate, advocate, abdicate and assassinate. Their tighty whities are in a bunch and groins are chaffing. Hahahahahaha. Hmpf.
So agree. Between Dany, Sansa, Arya, Brienne, and Cersei, I think the female characters in GoT are way more interesting and dynamic than their male counterparts. And that’s not even counting departed supporting players like Margaery and Olenna Tyrell, who were also fabulous and demonstrated intelligence and nuance in their limited roles.
Yes. Don’t forget any of them, even those that died had some kind of special something that separated and lifted. Like a really good bra lol. Sorry. I had to after typing that. Anywho, Ygritte, Shae and Ros, Margaery, Gilly, Ellaria and the Sands, Talisa, Lyanna, Meera…. on and on!
Osha and Karsi.
But not Cat. Cat was an idiot.
Olenna and Margery were faves of mine and they came soooooo close to winning (honestly, if they had been able to see Cersei’s sept blow-up coming — or if Olenna had just made the deal with Cersei — I think there is a 90% chance they would have won the Game of thrones) — but their strategy was to rule *through* men. Olenna chose to marry the heir to House Tyrell even though she was engaged to a lesser Targeryen, and Margery’s path to power was always planned to be marriage. I think the fact that they lost the game, while Dany, Arya, Sansa, Yara, and Brienne are still in it (and I know that none of them but Dany are actually vying for the Iron Throne, but they are all still alive and kicking), tells me that one of the messages of GoT is that women can, and must, seek out power on their own terms, and define their roles and paths, rather than gaining or wielding power through their men (through husbands or brothers or fathers). No husbands or brothers or fathers ever fully appreciated the strength of their womenfolk’s abilities — Tywin, Tyrion, Jaime, and Robert all underestimated Cersei, Jon underestimated Sansa, Ned underestimated Arya (though he might have assessed her properly if he could have seen her grow up a little), Drogo didn’t really “see” Dany for everything she was, neither Joffrey nor Tommen understood Margery even a little bit. Maybe Oberyn fully comprehended Ellaria’s and his daughter’s abilities, though.
And I hope when lands are being rewarded post-war, the women will be remembered. Olenna ruled, Ellaria ruled (although after assassinating the prince), and Yara ruled. So let’s hand some land and castles out to the ladies, too.
Exactly ladies. Everything y’all said is exactly why this is a feminist’s saga. Women were ignored, underestimated and discounted, unworthy of consideration and that point was driven home liberally throughout each season. The men sang songs, got drunk and had lots of sex. The women sat back and listened, learned, digested and then set upon strategic plans relying on their strengths and surrounding themselves with intelligence.
Asshole bros will always be asshole bros. I’ve no time for them.
Jon was screaming at Viserion out of frustration because he was trying to get to Bran, but was pinned down by the stupid dead dragon. He had no idea if anyone else was trying to get there; it’s not like they had a chance to regroup and discuss new plans. Everything went to shit, and everyone had to do the best they could.
Arya is Arya, and no one else. I didn’t think she’d be the one to kill the NK, simply because it seemed too perfect. But really, who else but the badass ninja? She’s always been one of my favorite characters. Jon was too obvious. I’m not sure she’ll go to King’s Landing. Her arc seems complete, even though Cersei has always been on her list.
Joffrey was always first on Arya’s list (as she tells Sansa) but Cersei was always #2 with a bullet!!! I really really really hope it is Arya who gets Cersei. I think she feels robbed she didn’t get her #1, I would love her to bag her #2.
I don’t believe Arya is going to die (well, I hope she won’t at least), just because the author promised his wife, who loved that character, that he would not kill her. We shall see…
I read that she threatened him, rather than he promised her. But GRRM’s favorites are Arya and Tyrion. Heavy rumors that the shocking death is Tyrion, so it seems Arya is safe.
A mary sue is someone that is untouchable, that has no faults, solves all problems, and is exceptional in a group of exceptional people. E.g. Wesley Crusher in next generation.
A woman doing something surprising (which she’s trained for for years) after overcoming odds is NOT being a mary sue. Apparently Arya throwing dragon glass daggers that she’s never touched before into a tight pattern is normal, using a dagger she’s trained with in a attack move she’s used on the show before with other characters is over the top for these bros. *eye roll*
It looks a lot like building Rey’s character in Stars Wars
People are exhausting sometimes. Let me correct this, misogynists are exhausting all the time. I am not sure how these last episodes will pan out, but I remember reading that the director of the episode mentioned that episodes 3, 4, and 5 are like a beginning, middle, and of a story, so I expect a lot of payoff still to come.
I used to read a lot A Lot of basically crappy fiction. I learnt the tropes. So much so that I appointed myself trustee of the Society for the Protection of Minor Characters. Whose only function in a novel was to be introduced & then killed off within 3 chapters. Often I felt the pain of their short lives.
So monumentally, effing stupid. I thought the depiction of Arya as a seasoned martial artist/assassin was very realistic on Sunday. She was a bad b!tch for a minute, until a white walker slammed her face into a wall. After that, all those fancy moves went out the window and she was noticeably unsteady on her feet, basically just trying to stay alive. I’m so tired of these hypersensitive man-babies.
Arya trained with the Faceless Men to be an assassin, a one-on-one killer, not a warrior. She didn’t learn battle tactics, like the boys in her family were taught. (And of course none of them were taught specifically how to fight an Army of the Dead). I thought that her doing really well for about 10 minutes in the heat of battle, and then really getting the wind knocked out of her by a head injury, was excellent and true to character. A Jon Snow, or Theon, or Yara, or Tormund or Ygritte — characters who had trained for warfare their whole lives — might not have had their confidence shaken as much as Arya did in that moment, but she was definitely unsettled and became unsure of herself for a little while, until the Red Woman gave her the inspiration for her next (huge) move, and she got her courage back (and then some).
They’ve been saying this about female characters for years like Daenerys. They honestly can’t stand seeing women winning or struggling and overcming that struggle without dudes yelling Mary sue bs.
What’s the male equivalent of a Mary Sue?
The Hero.
-eyeroll-
I have a lot of gripes about GoT since they’ve gone off book but jeeeez. Arya has been training since SEASON 1. She’s struggled and failed repeatedly. She’s improved. She isn’t perfect. Bros are just mad that it wasn’t their beloved idiot, Jon Snow.
I got a kick out of all of these theories being wrong. Stop guessing folks and just enjoy the ride.
Isn’t Luke Skywalker a “Mary Sue”?
Anyway I don’t think that Arya will kill Cersei because the element of surprise is gone for the viewer. 4 episodes (or less) is too soon to repeat themselves.
Eh, to be honest, I think it’s time we stop giving so much coverage and importance to what ammounts to the random opinions of a few people on the internet. Please notice the “few” part. I have discussed this episode on all sorts of sites this week and this opinion is definetely that of a fairly small part of the fanbase.
It’s so creepy to me to read articles quoting reddit comments and tweets. Those are random people who might as well have written that while taking a dump. Who gives a shit? Or sould I say, why give a shit?
I agree. I’ve been reading through multiple online comments about this episode and Arya being a Mary Sue is definitely only discussed in a small number of them. I’m putting the blame on the news organizations (*clears throat* The Guardian – you’re supposed to be a reputable source of news!). They pick one minor opinion out of literally thousands (and I’m not kidding about the thosands part) because they knew they could drum up controversy.
And there are legitimate criticisms about why it shouldn’t have been Arya – the showrunners basically threw out seven years of prophesy and foreshadowing about azor ahai taking out the white walkers – not for thematic reasons – but just because that’s what people were expecting. Yes, it subverts expectations but at the same time you can understand why it is thematically unsatisfying.
Also, the part where people posit that john yelled to distract the Dragon is also a minor opinion, and also said somewhat jokingly because people were disappointed with the episode and were trying to cling onto any reason to explain why Jon was acting like such a fucking idiot.
The worst part of the episode for me was when they slaughtered all the Dothraki on a useless charge and then had the Unsullied sacrifice themselves to protect the northerers as they retreated. They basically killed off all the brown people to protect the white northerners. WTF?
No Azor Ahai, no Lightbringer. That was a little disappointing for me.
Could Arya be Azor Ahai? Could the dagger be Lightbringer?
My bet is that Jaime kills Cersei.
Arya isn’t going to die. GRRM has said all along that she has to survive.
Jon is the biggest “Mary Sue” in this series. In fact, I think I’ll start calling him that from now on.
Arya is no Mary Sue. She’s earned her stripes and was mentored and trained by some of the best of both Westeros and Essos.
Also looking at some of these comments, it seems a lot of the Jon haters might forget that GoT has been about both males and females being saved at one point or another. Arya in this episode alone wouldn’t have made it without the Hound and Beric’s heroic sacrifice. Same for Dany with Jorah, who has saved her several times in the past along with Daario. I’ve always thought that one of the running themes of this show is that no one person is always the big hero, but that it takes “the pack” to survive.
The other being that sometimes you may meet people that you dislike or hate enough to want to see dead, but that life and circumstances sometimes change people and feelings. And that some of those same people you hated could even willingly give their life to save yours.
Drake probably wants to date her now lol
I didn’t like the first of the new Star Wars, partly because the lead character was a Mary Sue and I didn’t care about her. I am not that keen on Captain Marvel because she is so powerful and I find all really powerful super heroes boring. But Arya Stark? She earned that moment over the last 7 years and it was great. She is tough, she is sneaky and she is ruthless – a brilliant character!