More than a week ago, we had an update on the situation with the Duke of Edinburgh title. When the Earl and Countess of Wessex were married, Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip put it in writing that they both wanted the Edinburgh title to go to Edward and Sophie eventually, when Phil and Liz had both passed away. Sophie and Edward went on a full “grief tour” following Philip’s death, giving interviews about how the title was practically theirs and how they were Edward’s parents’ favorites. Meanwhile, the title became Charles’s as the first-born son and heir, and now that he’s king, he can bestow the title on anyone he wants. He’s told the Wessexes repeatedly now that they’re not getting the Edinburgh titles. Edward and Sophie are beyond miffed, but for now, they’re playing nice. I wonder for how long, especially if this Mail on Sunday report is accurate. Apparently, Charles wants to make Princess Charlotte the Duchess of Edinburgh???
King Charles has not made Prince Edward the Duke of Edinburgh because he is saving the title for Princess Charlotte, The Mail on Sunday has learned. The revelation comes after months of speculation as to why the King has withheld the title from his younger brother, who had been expected to inherit the Dukedom after his father’s death last year.
A source said: ‘Discussions are under way, but the favoured outcome for the King is that this title ought to go to Princess Charlotte. It would be a fitting way to remember the Queen – who, of course, had the title Duchess of Edinburgh – and a way for His Majesty to honour the line of succession.’
As the Prince of Wales’s second child, Charlotte is third in line to the throne, after her father Prince William and brother Prince George. When the Princess of Wales was expecting her first child, the rules of Royal primogeniture were changed to allow a girl born to the couple the same rights as a boy. In the event, William and Kate’s first child was Prince George, who was born in 2013. But the new rules meant Princess Charlotte’s position at birth in 2015 was not affected by the arrival of her younger brother Prince Louis in 2018.
The title of the Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh is one of the most senior in the Royal Family. Charlotte’s position as the second child of the heir to the throne is similar to that of Princess Anne, the Princess Royal, who was the second child of Prince Philip and the then Princess Elizabeth.
But unlike Anne she will not drop down the order of succession until her older brother George has children. When William becomes King, George will become Duke of Cornwall and then Prince of Wales – but not Duke of Edinburgh.
A source said: ‘Charlotte’s position is historically significant because she is the first female member of the Royal Family whose place in the line of succession will not be surpassed by her younger brother. So it is constitutionally significant that Charlotte should be given such a corresponding title, because it is not beyond the realms of possibility that she will accede the throne if, for example, Prince George does not have children.’
For years it was thought King Charles’s brother Prince Edward, the third son of the Queen and Prince Philip, would be granted the rank. A source close to Edward said that the lack of movement on him being granted the title Duke of Edinburgh from the King ‘had not gone unnoticed’.
Now discussions are taking place at the Palace as to what title, if any, Edward will be awarded under the new reign. While the Wessexes are said to be ‘relaxed’ about titles, it will no doubt come as a blow. Should Edward be granted a Dukedom it would stay in his family. At present, his children are styled Lady Louise and Viscount Severn. The move by the King to focus on the line of succession is significant, as Charles III plans a modernised, slimmed-down monarchy. A Royal insider said: ‘It shows you what the King is thinking. It’s about promoting those directly in line to the throne rather than those on the edges.’
[From The Daily Mail]
While I don’t know the ins and outs of royal primogeniture, I honestly didn’t think princesses could just be given a random ducal title by the king?? Wouldn’t that mean that whoever Charlotte marries would become the Duke of Edinburgh? That’s… weird? It’s far more likely, in my opinion, that Charles and his advisors are just using Charlotte as a temporary excuse for not giving DoE to Edward. I think Charles wants to keep the title for as long as possible, regardless of his parents’ explicit wishes (which were put in writing!). Now, does anyone think that Charles will give the Wessexes a different ducal title? I don’t. To Charles, the Wessexes are “on the edges.”
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BIRMINGHAM, ENGLAND – AUGUST 02: Princess Charlotte of Cambridge and Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge attend the Sandwell Aquatics Centre during the 2022 Commonwealth Games on August 02, 2022 in Birmingham, England.,Image: 711466411, License: Rights-managed, Restrictions: , Model Release: no, Credit line: Chris Jackson / Avalon
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Prince George, Princess Charlotte and Prince Louis, accompanied by their parents the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge, are greeted by Headmaster Jonathan Perry as they arrive for a settling in afternoon at Lambrook School, near Ascot in Berkshire. The settling in afternoon is an annual event held to welcome new starters and their families to Lambrook and takes place the day before the start of the new school term. Picture date: Wednesday September 7, 2022. PA Photo. The family have set up home in Adelaide Cottage in Windsor’s Home Park as their base after the Queen gave them permission to lease the four-bedroom Grade II listed home.,Image: 720535507, License: Rights-managed, Restrictions: NO UK USE FOR 48 HOURS- Fee Payable Upon reproduction – For queries contact Avalon sales@Avalon.red London +44 20 7421 6000 Los Angeles +1 310 822 0419 Berlin +49 30 76 212 251 Madrid +34 91 533 42 89, Model Release: no, Credit line: Avalon.red / Avalon
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Little Charlotte looking at these people, like, “Now, why am I in it???”
This comment is GOLD 🤣
I wonder what would happen if Charlotte wants to marry a she? Would they both be Duchess?
I think that is exactly what would happen. The Duchesses of Edinburgh! I think it would be even cooler still if Charlotte requested the title of Duke.
Why is it weird that a title would go to whomever Charlotte marries btw? People get titles by marriage all the time.
But wouldn’t it be the same issue like the King consort thingy? Charlotte is the blood princess here and her title would make her husband in a superior position.
I think the idea would be to turnover this archaic and sexist system entirely. Giving her the title in her own right would be a very radical gesture on Chuck’s part.
They have already removed some sexism from the laws of succession– let’s see if they will take it to the next level.
To be honest, I’m not expecting it.
The Duchesses of Edinburgh is a Kiera Knightly period drama I would 💯 watch.
As a female Charlotte is not entitled to a title. When she marries she becomes Princess Charlotte, Mrs John Doe. So if she marries a woman her wife is likely to remain untitled.
No one is entitled to a title, unless they’re heirs to a titled man/woman. If the constitution allows it now, she can be bestoved a title from her grandfather. Several old scottish titles can be held by women, and afaik there are a few women given titles of their own (mistresses of kings) through history. Her husband (if she marrries a man) would not be duke in the case of HER getting the title. That would only happen if KC3 gives Charlotte’s husband a title.
More importantly, what would happen if George wants to marry a he & not have children? They are looking ahead…
No reason why George cannot be a biological father while married to a he.
But inheritance laws haven’t caught up. A biological child to a same sex couple is ‘illegitimate’ for title inheritance. They’re the child of, not the couple, but just one. For instance, if Duke X marries Mr Y—a) a surrogate carries the child fathered by the Duke but the child isn’t the bio child of Mr Y and so not born within the marriage or b) me Y is the bio dad and the child isn’t genetically connected to the title. Adoption has long been a prohibition.
Giving Charlotte a dukedom in her own right would be a new move for the British monarchy. Titles are usually only given out to males with the exception of the Princess Royal title. I don’t know if there would need to be changes in the law or not. If she is given a dukedom in her own right then there would need to be further changes to procedure. Charlotte’s future spouse would not be called duke or duchess under the current system. Beatrice and Eugenie’s husbands have not been made princes even though their wives are blood princesses.
On reflection, it’s a strange story. Charles is the current Duke of Edinburgh so I don’t think he can give the title away without a change in the law which is one of the reasons it wasn’t given to Edward. When Charles passes away, the title will go to William, as the eldest son.
Actually, he’s not. The title went back to the monarchy once Charles became king, so while he’s king and Duke of Cornwall which every monarch is, he’s no longer DOE. So now he can grant it to Edward as agreed upon years ago. It’s not a given that William will inherit the title, Charles can give it to whomever he wants.
Correction, that should be Duke of Lancaster, not Cornwall.
@Feeshalori, thank you. I’ve lost track of all the title changes x
She’s very pretty and that’s all I really have to say except I feel so badly for these LITTLE CHILDREN being used as pawns within the family and the press. It’s disgusting.
I hope Harry breathed a sigh of relief this morning this his children don’t have to be a part of these game of thrones. Can you imagine your seven year old being a pawn in the power plays of old men for her entire life??
I feel so bad for them. Atleast when William and Harry were growing up they had Diana who actually treated them like children and wanted them to live a normal life. These kid had no one who is down to earth around them.
Maybe when they were very small she did but as he grew up, she treated William like her best friend and confidant, discussing her problems and heartache with him. Way too much for a young boy to handle.
I do feel for them because they are innocent pawns in this whole system who didn’t ask to be born into this but I also don’t hold out any hope that they will grow up into self aware hard working adults given who their parents are. I mean you look at Harry and he had Diana but he also went into the military which I think changed a lot for him. He also had/has sentebale, a lot of things went into him coming out of this family a completely different person than his brother and father. It also depends on personality. But then I look at the trump kids and they are all equally terrible and had a mother who came from nothing. Hopefully they will prove me wrong though who knows.
Oops I guess Ivana didn’t actually come from nothing.
Just waiting to see what happens as the Cambridge kids hit their teens. Watch how viciously the Press turns on them. It will be interesting to see if Khate can keep them from being as wild as she was in her younger years.
Willie, Kate, Charles and Ma middy absolutely prioritise power, status, titles and publicity over happiness and mental health. Those kids will never be encouraged to follow their heart. Both sides of their family are too busy playing games via the press.
Diana wasn’t perfect, but if she had the choice, she would have chosen her children’s happiness over titles, just like harry.
I don’t believe the story. She is only seven. This story inspires she’s just like the queen which is not good imo she needs to be herself.dm comments in the majority want Edward to have the title.
Also George will probably get a Dukedom apart from Cornwall which logically would be Edinburgh, leaving the lesser” ones for Charlotte and Louis.
I don’t think there’s much chance George will marry before Charles dies and the Cambridges become King and Queen… at which time the Cornwall dukedom would be George’s automatically, and he wouldn’t need a Cambridge-style dukedom to tide him over (as was the case for William).
It will be interesting to see if William decides to award Charlotte a “Duchessdom ” in her own right when he becomes King, rather than just creating her Princess Royal only. He would probably hold Edinburgh back for her marriage gift, making her Duchess of Edinburgh with a consort-Duke title queued up for her husband. That would be a first, but why not? Or as others have said, a secondary consort-co-Duchess title if Charlotte marries a woman.
I agree. And I think it’s more sinister than anyone’s suggested. I think Charles let this slip in order to appear progressive, but likely understands Charlotte will not be married in time for him to give her the title. So it will remain unbestowed until he passes, at which point William will give it to..,George! Or Louis! Bypassing Charlotte. He’s playing the same game his grandparents did—and making the heir the baddie. Imagine William passing over his daughter. That will destroy his image. I’ll bet Charles knows William wants it for George and he put this bunk out there to injure William, FK.
I doubt they would give her such a title in childhood. They did say chuck wanted to save the title for her.
I imagine she would get it upon marriage, like everyone else in the RF. If Charles isn’t alive at the time, one would imagine King William would have no problem giving it to her, but who knows – he may pull a Charles and give it to George despite whatever Charles wanted. Game of Thrones, British RF style!
But floating it in the press now wins Charles his points for being “supportive of women”, regardless of what happens in the future
I agree. I think this whole thing is a fever dream. In the British Monarchy, such granting of titles happens on marriage, and while it’s totally possible that Charles has private thoughts about what title he wants to give Charlotte when she marries, it’s a ridiculous idea that he’d leak that now with her 7 years old.
I was hoping this option would be floated! This is one of the other logical ramifications of Charlotte not being pushed back in then line of succession by Louis—that she could inherit a dukedom.
She can’t tho. I know it’s sexist but these titles cannot be bestowed upon females.
Psss…it’s all fake and made up. They can do whatever they want. If they decide she can have a title bestowed upon her in her own right, then that’s the new norm.
Kay is right. It can be done but just isn’t out of tradition (I believe there was some courtier talk urging George VI to name Elizabeth Princess of Wales but he firmly refused on the grounds it should only be the title of the wife of the Prince of Wales).
They can definitely be bestowed on women but it depends on how the title was created. The husband of Princess Louise, daughter of Edward VII, was made the Duke of Fife on their marriage (Louise was given the title Princess Royal in 1905). When the couple only had daughters, Queen Victoria issued Letters Patent to permit the title to pass to the eldest daughter and then to her male heirs. When the Duke of Fife died, their daughter Alexandra became the 2nd Duchess of Fife.
Anne Boleyn was made a Marquis in her own right.
The Queen was the Duke of Lancaster – it’s a title that always belongs to the monarch.
In the Scottish peerage, women can be peers in their own right.
It’s all made up & they can do what they like. Charles is probably not going to be in charge by the time Charlotte is thinking of marriage anyway.
Charles is already throwing his grandchildren under the bus
well he already threw Archie and Lili under the bus umpteen times so i guess it’s time he moves on to the Lamebridge littles
This makes sense, if you lean into monarchy in the first place.
And sure, anyone she marries becomes a Duke, or Duchess, just like Kate got Williams titles. It wouldn’t, or shouldn’t, be different for Charlotte.
It’s all rather ridiculous, but I’m on board for Charlotte being treated as more than the “spare”.
More likely the husband(wife?) will get a lesser title and not Duke.
Actually right now it would be different for Charlotte. This system is profoundly sexist. Giving her the dukedom in her own right would be a major change. My bet is that it will never happen.
“While I don’t know the ins and outs of royal primogeniture, I honestly didn’t think princesses could just be given a random ducal title by the king??”
KCIII can whatever title to whomever he wants. There is is history and precedent of women being awarded all manner of titles in their own right.
If Charles or William changes the rules so that Charlotte is created a Duchess in her own right, her husband wouldn’t necessarily become a Duke. When Lord Mountbatten’s daughter inherited his title, she became the Countess of Mountbatten; her husband didn’t become the Earl of Mountbatten.
There is also the issue of the 1917 letters patent not giving any of Charlotte’s children the HRH once William is king, but it would be given automatically for any children Louis would have.
The entire system is a sexist mess. And giving archaic titles is just a waste of time, especially when it is likely that Charlotte and Louis won’t be very involved in any of this.
Edward was promised the title and he is currently doing three times as many engagements as William which he was asked to do. Charles should abide by the undertaking he agreed to in 1999. Other titles can be invented later on.
It’s also no win for feminism to make Charlotte a duchess in her own right because it’s not like she will be allowed to have opinions. Kate’s Handmaid tale example will be forced on Charlotte.
Kate stans are doing that work for the Midds. They’ve been shipping CC with Christian of Denmark since the day she was born. They want her to be ‘a real queen like she deserves’. WTF. This is a child who will likely never be a working royal. Strip the HRH and princess title now, along with titles for the youngest, and raise them to earn a living.
Her parents are over-emoting in front of her and she just sits back and doesn’t participate in their flexing. Smart little girl. And for God’s sake, Kate, stop pointing to “show” or “teach” Charlotte anything. We all know she’s smarter than you and sees far more than you do.
Kate does that all the time with her kids. She leans into their space so that (1) she can be photographed with them, and (2) she can publicly demonstrate to their world that she is “parenting.” It’s irritating because it’s so phony and obvious.
If this promise to the Wessexes is IN WRITING by The sitting Monarch at the time, surely Charles must honour that or Edward can go the legal route.
But what exactly will he sue for? Big bro ain’t giving me the new fancy surname mummy promised me 😭😭😭
Edward probably can’t afford a long drawn-out lawsuit and KC can.
I doubt there is legal recourse for things like granting titles. They are at the monarch’s discretion even if removal is up to Parliament. If it were property or something like that, it would be different.
I don’t think Edward would have any legal recourse. The reigning monarch is not obliged to do what the previous “wished”. Lizzie should have given Edward and Sophie the titles after Philip died, if that is what she wanted to do. Before the choice was left up to Charles.
QEII could not give the title to anyone as the the title “Duke of Edinburgh” went directly to Charles. The title had to merge back into the crown before it could be rewarded.
^^ Thanks @BTB for explaining this again for those who understandably have a hard time making sense of British primogeniture laws and ancient royal rules/ traditions. The main thing to realize is that Betty & Philip would have had no need to make a deal with Chuck if Betty could have simply handed the title to Edward upon Phil’s death.
I believe it was probably chiefly Phil who desired that his title be passed on to Edward. That surely didn’t sit well with Chuck at any point despite the fact that Chuck was going to inherit everything, including the kingship, and he didn’t need extra titles.
Betty must have known before her death about the chatter that Chuck would not give Edward the DoE title. By that point, the Queen had already ceded most of the authority and control she had to Chuck anyway. As an elder in her 90s, QE-II was probably more preoccupied with her bodily comforts, her normal rituals, with sleeping a lot, and with being concerned about Andrew’s protection and security after her death.
I’m unclear about the benefits of the dukedom beyond a fancy title. Are there estates, income and other assets associated with these titles too? Like the Duchy of Cornwall is a money maker but what about the Duke of Edinburgh etc.?
No. It’s just a title. Cornwall and Lancaster are the royal duchies that come with land and money.
I think Charles wants to keep the title within his line. If Edward gets it, then it would pass to his son and the title would lose its importance. Louis would normally become the Duke of York but I think that title is going on the back burner. I think Charles wants it for Louis or maybe Charlotte.
I found this fascinating…and I’m totally on board for Charlotte for this! (I thought it was going to George). For me the main points are:
1) Charles can do whatever he wants in regard to giving titles. He’s the King. He only needs the involvement of Parliament if he wants to take titles away
2) I think this is actually a blow to the aristocracy, which is still firmly male oriented and does not allow women to inherit titles with a few exceptions. If Charles gives Charlotte the ducal title in her own right, on top of her maintaining her position in the line of succession, it’s a shot across the bow of the aristocracy which is fighting a number of legal battles on this exact issue with various titles. Interesting stuff here https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/women-hereditary-peerages-and-gender-inequality-in-the-line-of-succession/
3) I wonder if Charles is mostly doing this to win points with women. A royal dukedom in a woman’s own right is a significant gift to Charlotte and raises her profile considerably compared to, say, Princess Anne and the worthless “Princess Royal” title, nevermind that Anne seems likely to live to 100 years old and Charlotte wouldn’t be getting the Princess Royal title until she was middle aged (Royal Dukedoms outrank Prince/Princess, IIRC).
4) I think Charles has made it crystal clear that he detests both Andrew and Edward and doesn’t give a fig about what they want or feel is their due. With both QEII and Philip gone, he is going to focus on his own line and that’s it.
Yeah, KC is going to focus on his ALL WHITE descendants and break a promise to his parents. How noble. Anne didn’t get the Princess Royal title until she was 37.
^^ @Lady Esther. Why would you think George gets DoE? This is all going to be based on how long Chuck reigns, and when/ if George marries. Once Will inherits the throne, George is automatically The Duke of Cornwall, and in line to be named Prince of Wales, if the monarchy is still in existence and the Wales title remains a royal tradition. George doesn’t really need the DoE title under these circumstances.
IMO, Charles may want to keep the DoE title dormant. And then, if the monarchy continues, Will gets to decide on the bestowing of titles. Meanwhile, as @Kaiser mentioned, this chatter about giving DoE to Charlotte may just be a smokescreen. Chuck has certainly managed to change the dialogue about DoE, which was surely his intention (since blatantly going against his parents’ wishes, has NOT been popular).
I actually agree and don’t think it’s a bad idea. Even at her age, she’s remarkably poised and since they’re going to shove this poor child into the spotlight anyway, she should have her grandmother’s title. Edward and Sophie have always left a bad taste in my mouth, I don’t care that Chuckles wants to bypass them.
Charles doesn’t care at all about sexism in the aristocracy, so he wouldn’t be doing this to help those women in their lawsuit. He’s only floating this idea to shut Edward & Sophie up. Charles is also an overgrown child acting out, being jealous that Andrew was mummy’s fav and Edward was papa’s fav.
Charlotte getting a dukedom won’t help women just like Elizabeth being the actual Queen regnant did nothing for women’s rights either. (Victoria was actively against giving women the vote, at least Elizabeth stayed quiet)
An antiquated system privileging a small white minority over others is not how society becomes better for women. This is Charles throwing out a distraction to hide the fact he’s trying to back out of an undertaking he made to his mother in 1999.
^^ 🎯 @Nic919! 💯
Wow they really are desperate. And people really are clueless. What a joke! And poor Charlotte! in the middle of Charles usual mess.. Tampon, clean up your own shit for once! But you’ve never even wiped your own bum. What a prick. He’s more lothesome by the day.
See Sophiesta, mean girling will not get you a promotion if you aren’t the direct heir. I hope you can mope in your 120 bedroom palace with x dumb bathrooms and enjoy being outranked by a little girl and Meghan.
I have said before and will say it again,make Charlotte the queen. Better than seeing next three kings.
Sophie certainly must have had some inkling about Charles by now. She certainly should not be surprised
Mooney didn’t say Meghan outranked Charlotte ever.
Mooney said that Meghan and Charlotte outrank Sophie, which is true.
I agree with Kaiser. This is just a smoke screen. Giving Charlotte or rather her husband the title would have the same result as if it was given to Edward.
Right. Eventually, it would be “non-royal”. The royal experts are falling over themselves to justify anything KC does. Basically, he is breaking a promise to his parents and treating his all white descendents special while yanking things from those who aren’t. Basically, Charlotte will eventually be in the same position as PH in relation to the throne.
@AmyBee & Equality, I absolutely agree with both of you. This has nothing to do with slimming down the monarchy (as Charles appears to now define it) because Charlotte is now in the exact same position that Prince Edward was when he was her age, the child (and future sibling) of a monarch and third in line to the throne (like Harry).
Presumably Charlotte, like Edward, will ultimately be pushed down further in the line of succession. How would putting Charlotte in Edwards exact same position in succession but with a ducal title be slimming down the monarchy? It would not.
The only way the Charles could justify not giving Edward a ducal title, in the name of slimming down the monarchy, would be to deny all non-heir children, including Charlotte and Louis, titles.
While I agree that Charles is floating this idea simply as an excuse to not give Edward the Edinburgh title, I fully believe that William would want to give Charlotte the title. I don’t think William and Kate (and Carole) want to slim down the monarchy when it comes to their descendants.
LOL, this is the OPPOSITE of a fitting way to honor the queen, who specifically said that she wanted Edward to be the Duke of Edinburgh.
many of us said last week that we thought this was about William wanting DoE for George or Louis, apparently he wants it for Charlotte I guess.
I think titles are dumb but overall this is crappy on Charles’ part, bc titles DO mean something in that world and his mother and father made their wishes perfectly clear.
We suspected Burger King had a hand in denying Edward & Sophie the title and here it is. William thinks that the public is so in love with his family and his darling daughter that they will excuse breaking the promise to the Queen because this idea is hugely better than whatever lame and boring desires that the Queen and Philip wanted way back when.
But the switcheroo is not going down well with the peasants, as most of the comments seem to be that Elizabeth’s expressed and written intent for the title should have been respected and carried out. Elizabeth could have honored Charlotte’s new place in the line of succession in a million different ways while she was alive. This is just the greedy Keens hogging all the good royal stuff in order to pump up their nothing-burger selves.
The best way to honour his mother would have been to adhere to her wish which was for Edward to get the title. And actually the Princess Royal is a VERY prominent title as it’s the highest title that can be given to any female member of the family (thou it has always traditionally gone to the eldest daughter of the monarch).
I suspect this is grasping by Ma and/or Peggy as they want all the good titles for the Keen children.
If Chucky really wants to slim down the Monarchy that also means sliming down the titles and retiring some of them. Char could easily get her parents Cambridge title which makes more sense.
The queen wanted to give it to Edward and anything else is not following her wishes. There should not be any discussion of a child getting a title, especially when she is not the direct heir.
Charlotte is in the same position Harry was and we all know how that turned out. The spare used to cover for the heir. Neither Charlotte or Louis should be involved in this because they are unlikely to have a significant role.
This is such BS by King Snarls. Queen Elizabeth and Prince Phillip wanted Edward to inherit the DoE title, and that’s the ONLY way to honor their wishes. So much pettiness in that ‘family.’
“King Snarls” ! That is a good one!!!!!
Just realized that they very likely are looking at the York title for Louis.
It will end when Andrew dies (how convenient he had only girls).
If I were Andrew, I’d watch my back. Especially as Louis approaches adulthood.
York won’t be used for a few generations. Andrew has tarnished it that much.
Which makes Charles keeping Edward, the non problematic brother an Earl look even worse.
Yes, the York title will be put on the back burner for a while.
She should absolutely be the next princess royal, I think they would prefer to keep the title for Louis rather than give him the duke of York title as it will remind everyone of Noncey Drew
This. I think it’s a smokescreen to say they are giving it to Charlotte. They don’t want to say Louis to avoid the uproar of not giving it to Charlotte.
Ding! Ding! This is what I think too. Charlotte will get the Princess Royal title and they will hand Louis the Edinburgh title. No one wants that York title.
The DoY title is also a very senior title (also one of the BIG UK peerages) so no way is Peggy going to let that one get retired. Regardless of Andrew that title is going to Louis.
Even if that was so, Andrew could live a long time which would mean a long wait for any of the Cambridge kids. I think they’ll let the Duke of York title skip a generation.
yeah, Andrew could live another 30-35 years. It’s likely Louis is married before he dies.
I agree with those who say that Andrew has tarnished the York title. It’s possible Andrew could still be alive when Louis marries. Thus, Louis could receive the Cambridge dukedom, or DoE, if it doesn’t go to Charlotte. Or, another dukedom could be created if desired (but that probably won’t happen).
Even the Duke of Clarence title could be resurrected after a long dormancy, due to the previous holder’s problematic adult life.
I would like her to get a duchess title but Charles should allow Edward to get Edinburgh title.
In the really olden days, If their surnames had been Plantagenet, people would be drawing blood over an insult like this, downsizing or no. The title rightfully belongs to Edward. Charlotte could become Princess Royal later.
I saw this BS on Meaww. I’m glad you mentioned it, Kaiser. I’m sure the Wessexes are wondering what they did wrong to deserve this backstab. It’s going to be a race to see whether Edward or his nephew Harry really starts something.
Charles is pissing off not a few people who might be allies later when he needs some. The way he’s going, there were be no one left to have his back.
I saw this news yesterday too and am also glad for the coverage today. And maybe I’m looking at it in the wrong perspective, but Prince Philip held the DOE title and was always referred to as such and while Elizabeth was the duchess by marriage, her most prestigious title was HM The Queen in her own right. She was never referred to by duchess as queen or as dowager duchess as Philip was known as the Duke, although it was a given that she still was. So all this talk about honoring her by giving Charlotte this title because she was the Duchess of Edinburgh is all smoke and mirrors. Wasn’t it Philip’s title? I have no use for the Wessexes but if you want to honor the Queen and also the late Duke of Edinburgh, then fulfill their wishes and give the title to Edward as they wanted. If you want to throw titles at Charlotte, then give her the Cambridge one when it’s eligible.
Before Elizabeth became The Queen, she was known as Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Edinburgh. I guess that’s what the thought process is here? Maybe?
I know, Becks1, l thought of that too, but it seems that it’s just a weak excuse for Charles to wriggle out of his agreement with his parents. Of all titles he could possibly give Charlotte if that’s really the deal, he goes and picks the one that was promised to his brother that was held by his father. What a piece of work.
This article came so so soon (like the same day) after another one where “royal fans want to make Sophie a duchess!” or something. Someone (Charles?) shut that down real quick with this article throwing Charlotte’s name in there which no one no where would have guessed or cared about getting this literal made up title that only existed for Philip.
These people are so petty lol. Hard to feel sorry for the Wessex’s though – they’ve very publicly chosen a side and now have to accept the consequences.
This article, like the one explaining that Charles did not want to give Edward the Edinburgh title because it would go against his slimming down the monarchy, has disappeared from the online Daily Mail website (although, like the other one, the link is still good). Both articles were available for less than 24 hours. I think they disappear precisely because the comments are in favor of Charles’ keeping his promise and bestowing the title upon Edward. I can’t wait for the next article with a different tack to support Charles’ plan to screw the Wessexes!
Yep, I saw that same article. Within minutes (it seemed to me) they’d replaced it with this article about Charlotte, complete with the photo of her giving thumbs up and everything. I’ve gotta hand it to Charles, he’s pettier than I gave him credit for. Edward and Sophie went out of their way to hold the party line and mean girl H&M and toady to W&K over the past five years and he rewarded them with nothing at all. I guess we know why E&S both looked so unhappy and pale at the reception last week. And he has them backed into a corner too, since he knows they can’t leave the royal fold because they have no skills, no connections, no sizzle, no anything. They’re too young to retire and have no place to go and I think it’s hilarious that they fell into such a trap. I always got the sense that Anne stays far away from royal court drama and that Andrew is devious enough to have gathered leverage to use against Charles over the years, but Edward’s strategy was to simply stay loyal and hope Charles would keep his word and now the entire Wessex family has been put out to pasture in less than three months. GOOD.
@curmudgeon the DOE was far from made up for Philip. Before him it was prominently held for roughly six decades decades by Victoria’s second son (rather than York) Alfred, a career navy man like Philip had intended. Alfred held it as his chief title until he inherited his paternal uncle’s Duchy of Coburg in 1894. His only son predeceased him and Edinburgh returned to the family upon his death in 1900. (Alfred married tsar Nicholas’s only surviving daughter Marie, a cousin of Philip’s grandmother Olga, and the two resided in Clarence House when in London—the home of Philip and Elizabeth until she became queen.)
You’re right, my bad. Thanks for the correction 🙂
Do you get any money with the title? Like rents from land? If it’s just ceremonial that seems petty and weird. If it’s about money though, it would make more sense that this is a thing. I’m an American living in Scotland, so a lot of this royal stuff is baffling to me
The only two titles that come with money/property in the British RF are the Duke of Lancaster (the monarch) and the Duke of Cornwall (the heir, currently only available for male heirs). So no, the Dukedom of Edinburgh would only be a ceremonial title, like the Princess Royal title, or the HRH title which doesn’t come with anything attached (it does not grant security, as we can see with the shenanigans around Harry, the York princesses and Andrew’s security).
That said, I think the order of peerages in the UK matters in terms of prestige and general “wow factor” like all aristocratic titles. I don’t know which is more “senior”, the Duke of York title (traditionally reserved for the monarch’s second son) or the Duke of Edinburgh title (which was given to Philip as a sop because he was butthurt about Charles outranking him IIRC).
It’s more about the gesture for female equality for Charlotte if she was granted a Royal dukedom, inheritable, in her own right as a woman. That would lend significant support to the women fighting for equal rights to inherit non-royal aristocratic titles in the UK.
^^ No @Lady Esther. It’s well known that Philip was butthurt and very vocal about being made to feel like “a bloody amoeba,” because the courtiers and the old men in the government had advised his wife, the new Queen, to retain the House of Windsor moniker for her reign. That meant Philip could not pass his own surname on to his own children. 😳 Talk about a marriage relationship buzz-kill! LOL!
Of course, years later (in the late 1950s), Betty amended the arrangement by ruling that her and Philip’s heirs, not in direct line to the throne, would use Mountbatten-Windsor as a surname. Betty & Philip then successfully reconciled and conceived their two younger children. By this point, Anne and Chuck were pre-teens. 😉
^^ Addendum: The Privy Council declaration that Betty’s male descendants, not in direct line to the throne, would be known as Mountbatten-Windsor, occurred in 1960. Betty had likely promised this to Phil sometime earlier, as Betty gave birth to Prince Andy in February 1960 (when Charles was 11 years old). Prince Edward was born in March 1964, when Charles was 15.
BTW, Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark could not use his princely title in Britain. Betty bestowed the British Prince title upon Philip in 1957 (probably around the time they reconciled). Philip had received the Duke of Edinburgh title from George VI in 1947, directly prior to marrying Princess Elizabeth. So no, the Edinburgh title was not a ‘sop’ to Philip from Betty because Phil was peeved about Charles’ status — Charles wasn’t born yet. Perhaps the official “Prince” title, in 1957, was a ‘sop’ and/ or a gesture sealing Betty & Phil’s reconciliation.
@aftershock Philip couldn’t use his princely title because he renounced it to marry Elizabeth. This was to take some of the political and xenophobic sting out of her marrying a foreign prince. Only his own aunt, Marina of Greece, had married into the British royal family as a foreign royal since before WW1. He became Lt Philip Mountbatten (his mother’s family name was battenberg and this was the anglicized version they adopted in 1917) then George VI created him a Prince and the next day the DOE. He didn’t become a prince of the UK until years later, in 1957.
Women have been given hereditary titles in their own right before, it’s not really a new thing. It just doesn’t happen often.
That said, I would think William and Kate would want the Princess Royal title for Charlotte.
See Anne Scott
See: Cecilia Underwood
Also Anne Boleyn who Henry VIII created Marquess of Pembroke in her own right before their marriage.
There’s a Wikipedia page for it, it’s actually far more extensive than I thought. Of course, the majority were minor peerage titles like Baroness etc.
So basically the Wesexes got screwed. Sorry not sorry for Sophie for mean girling Meghan.
Does giving the title to Charlotte really keep it in the line of succession though? Or is giving it to the monarch/heirs second or fourth child much different? Either way, the title will pass down to either Edward or Charlottes children, not the heirs.
I don’t think this will happen. Chuckles just wants it out there. Look at what a modern monarch and loving grandfather I am to even think this! It’s all PR. He gets a courtier to leak it then when it doesn’t happen he has plausible deniability
Yes. It’s deflection. Look how great I am to want to bestow a title on my white granddaughter while I’m yanking a title from my biracial granddaughter.
Jfc, they are children! If George doesn’t have an heir; when Charlotte marries …All of this is so very grotesque. And honestly who thinks the monarchy will be around when they reach adulthood.
She’s 7. This story is being floated to give Charles and Co. a couple decades before having to actually do something with the title, and by then, it’ll be all “Charlotte doesn’t WANT a fussy title, she’d rather it go to one of the boys, naturally.”
Everybody has covered all my thoughts on this situation so I’ll just say this: King Charles was/is/always will be a d*ck.
There have been cases where a woman held a duchess title in her own right. For example, the 1st Duke of Marlborough who was granted the title by Queen Anne, lost his only son, who died before him. It was decided that his daughters would be given the right to inherit the title and then pass it on to their sons. The eldest daughter, Henrietta Countess of Godolphin did inherit from her father (her husband remained Earl of Godolphin by the way – he was never the duke). Her son, William Godolphin (called Willigo) died before her and the title then went to her dead sister’s elder son, Charles Spencer in (which is why the family is now called Spencer Churchill. His younger brother was the first Earl Spencer by the way). However Henrietta’s daughter Harriet did not inherit the title from her even though she outlived her mother.
Lord knows what will be done with the Edinburgh title. Won’t be decided for years anyway.
Hopefully by the time this is almost real, Scotland will be long gone from the UK.
It may be Charles’ intention and hope that the DoE title remain dormant indefinitely. It could be King Snarls’ way of getting revenge on a father he never felt love from.
As others have pointed out, giving it to Charlotte is just going to end up creating a similar issue to Edward i.e the title “leaves” the royal family and just becomes a regular old dukedom. Charlotte’s kids aren’t going to be HRH anyway (unless the rules change) and I don’t think they’ll make her husband a HRH so Charlotte’s own future husband will not even be a HRH duke. So again, you’re back to the same situation/scenario.
And there is already a title for the eldest female child: Princess Royal. Right now it’s Anne’s but once she dies, it’s available for Charlotte’s use. And considering Anne is 72 and Charlotte is only 7, there’s a possibility that by the time Charlotte gets married, Anne isn’t alive so the title can go to her before she’s married.
It’s weird that they’re talking about “the direct line of succession” as an excuse. Edward is still in the line of succession, he’s just very far back.
If/when Charlotte gets married, I doubt her husband will get a royal title? If she were the direct heir, that would be the case but she’s not. Neither of Princess Anne’s husbands got one and her kids didn’t receive royal titles. If something were to happen to George, she’d inherit the throne and I guess her husband would then be given a royal title. But if George lives a long life, gets married, and has kids, her husband won’t get a royal title and neither will her kids. That’s also the case for other princesses in other European royal families who aren’t the heir.
^^ FYI– a noble title was offered to Anne’s first husband, Mark Phillips. They did not accept it, reportedly because Anne did not want her children to have titles. Or else, she simply wasn’t interested in Mark receiving a title. 😉
Yes, I agree many things are likely true – petty KC wants to screw over Edward, petty Will wants to keep the prestigious title for his own family one way or another, the story itself is a distraction from any number of other things.
I find myself feeling badly for Charlotte now whenever we see news about her. I hope she really is a strong minded little girl. Not only is she the spare, with all that entails – but in a very few years she’ll start to divert attention from her very competitive mother, who’ll be older herself, and on her way towards 50. We know how Kate has been towards other women she feels threaten her position. Daughter or not, I don’t see her taking the loss of her position as the “young, glamorous royal” well at all.
He could still have given the title to Edward and on his passing, William can then give the title to Charlotte when she marries
No, Edward’s titles will go to his son, James.
Christ, what an asshole.
Total a-hole move. I think it’s hilarious. You know this news really burns Edward & Sophie’s asses.
If this story is true, Charles can’t have it both ways. In his slim down monarchy view Charlotte and Louis should not receive titles. If he’s denying a Dukedom title to Edward who was the son of a monarch he can’t justify it for Louis. Only the direct heir should have a title, only the direct heir should be expected to be a working royal.
Charlotte should be encouraged to go to university and get a degree that is not related to art history. The sooner she distances herself from the firm and sets her boundaries the better. I don’t trust William to not have the press treat her as they treated Harry. William is all about repeating generational trauma.
Being the monarch is a constitutional role. It means being the official, constitutional head of state, of a whole nation.
It doesn’t mean that the people who are going to be monarch need any of the other ranks and titles that go along with it.
IMO, all those in line to be future monarch should get a day job. Only the monarch + their immediate family should get any public tax payer money. The line of succession should be capped at a certain number, and all those who are in it should be mandated to rigorously study and understand the UK constitution, so that they can fully understand how to fulfill their role, should there ever be a day they need to actually step into that position. This eliminates the prospect of an unprepared monarch coming to the position, not knowing heads or tails about it. They should be required to keep their knowledge current, and up to date, every few years or so. There will be tests, just like with any other professional qualification. If at any point they can’t do that, then they should be allowed to step away from their position in the line of succession in favour of someone who can.
The known line of succession for the UK throne is 3000+ people long, it doesn’t need to capped. What needs to be capped is the number of working royals on the dole. Many other European royal families have gone with monarch+spouse, heir+spouse, that’s it. All younger kids raised to be working adults. As for the royal ‘role’? Puppets and figureheads, not the actual working head of a nation FFS. Vigorous study? To sit around, read papers in boxes, do whatever the Tories tell you, and cut ribbons? You can learn that in a few months if/when the person ahead of you in line dies unexpectedly.
This article’s comment section was moderated, it included many positive posts from bots.
Yet the idea was found unacceptable by 95%+ of the respondents who simply down voted the cloying sycophants.
It was removed from the headlines in less than four hours.
If it was a trial balloon, it went down like lead.
It comes down to integrity, Charles should honour his parents’ wishes or at least be brave to simply say “No” when the idea was prepositioned.
That way, the Queen could have had an alternative.
In as much as the monarch is the Head of State, it must be recognized that their extended families are individuals whose lives can be adversely affected by simply being born into that family.
That should be a consideration, and Prince Edward was actually actively involved and working with organizations under the auspices of said title.
It would involve “doing the right thing”, I will not hold my breath if I was Edward.
How is this slimming down the monarchy? Charlotte will be a younger sibling to a king, just like Edward. Why not give a title to only the future monarchs, like William and George? Or better yet, only the actual monarch? Or better yet, get rid if the institution.
Agree with the question of how is this slimming down the monarchy? Also, is there any chance the middletons would have floated this idea for Charlotte and it’s not even coming from
^^ @Mrs. Krabapple, just as with King Charles having the Edinburgh title (as merged with the throne), future monarchs, Will & George, would also have the DoE title, but not ever use it themselves. As monarch, they would each have the authority to bestow the DoE title upon someone else (if it’s not given away before either of them reach the throne).
Ending the institution sounds great, but seems unlikely to happen in the near future.
@aftershocks the DOE merged back with the Crown. Neither William nor George will inherit it. Otherwise William would have it as a subsidiary title to wales and Cornwall now as his father’s eldest son. The title is up for grabs.
Maybe this is crazypants, but I wonder if Chuckles is holding on to the DoE to dangle in front of Harry. I don’t for a second think that it would entice Harry to come back into the fold, but I can 200% see Chuck believing it’s his Hail Mary pass.
^^ Others have suggested this ‘crazypants’ theory in previous threads. Sigh… It makes no sense. Harry already has a dukedom and he would never be offered another one. Some royalists want Harry to be stripped of the dukedom he already has in the first place!
As well, Charles is worried about Harry’s memoir, he’s not contemplating ridiculous ways to tempt Harry to return to the fold. Everyone knows by now that Harry is never going back. Plus, Charles seems more pettily concerned with not acknowledging that his Sussex grandchildren hold the status/ titles, HRH Prince/ Princess.
The thing that would actually be a meaningful change to Charlotte’s future and current status, which is likely not going to happen for another few decades at least, would be to update the inheritance laws across the board for the nobility as well, making it so that daughters can also inherit and pass down peer titles and estates.
Until that happens, while it’s nice that the British monarchy adopted equal primogeniture, the fact is, that doesn’t apply across the board in an even manner to Charlotte. She still remains shut out from being eligible to inherit the Dukedom of Cambridge, bc that peerage + title can only be passed down to male heirs, lawfully begotten (so it also excludes adopted children, children conceived through surrogacy, even if that child shares the DNA of the parents, etc). IIRC, she also can’t inherit the Prince of Wales title or the Duke of Cornwall titles (and the money that comes from both), in her own right either.
If she married a commoner, she would be HRH the Princess Charlotte, Mrs. [Husband’s Last Name]. Even if she were given the title of Duchess of Edinburgh in her own right, her husband probably couldn’t be the Duke of Edinburgh. Whereas if she were a man, the wife would be able to be the Duchess of Edinburgh.
People need to talk a lot more about what a fundamentally archaic society even modern day Britain continues to be. They are a country that is not even secular–their official state religion is the Church of England. The PM of this country, should he be Catholic (which Boris Johnson is!) or Jewish, can’t advise the monarch on matters regarding Church of England bishops. The monarchy only a few years ago allowed Catholics to be in line to be monarch at all.
Their head of state is an unelected monarch, who is also the head of their state religion. Their inheritance laws and property rights are still, in so many ways, in favour of men. While the Queen was still monarch, invitations addressed to married couples would be addressed to Mr. and Mrs. [HusbandFN] [HusbandLN]. Systematic racism is still a thing, and they are in vehement denial of its existence.
And all those are just the tip of the ice berg. But as far as the issue of titles and women in the RF goes, Charlotte is getting nothing, except the title of Princess Royal once Baldy becomes king. Her future titles, rank, and status, remain contingent on a) who her father is, and b) who her husband is, much more so than who she actually is. Unless there’s a real energy for Charles to get that sh-t changed, I’m not holding my breath on anything else.
Excellent post @A thank you for writing it.
If it’s so easy to just disregard the Queen’s written wishes then why should we call Camilla the Queen? Why did Charles want that in writing so bad but for Edward it can just be disregarded?
Personally I think Charles will still make him DOE but not until his birthday.
Does anyone know what would happen if (when!!) Scotland devolves and leaves the UK?
Please tell me this will all be moot!
Why didn’t the Queen take care of this when it was within her power to give to title to Edward?
It wasn’t within her power to give the title to Edward since Charles inherited it when Philip died as his oldest son and heir. Elizabeth was the widowed dowager duchess of Edinburgh with no rights to hand off her husband’s title to whomever she wanted. This is why they had that written promise that Charles would make his brother DOE when it reverted back to the crown when Charles became king because the queen was powerless to interfere with the laws of inheritance. But she and Philip tried to do right by Edward by having that written agreement which, as we now see, was worth as much as the paper it’s written on.
^^ Once again, the Queen did not have the power to give the DoE title to Edward, due to British laws of primogeniture (in addition to royal traditions). Phil and Betty made the deal with Chuck because the title could not be given to Edward outright upon Phil’s death.
As the eldest son and heir, Chuck inherited the DoE title when Phil died. The DoE title then merged with the crown upon Chuck’s ascendance. As I mentioned earlier, the DoE title was not given to Phil by Betty. It was bestowed upon Phil by her father, George VI, just before she and Phil married in 1947.
In 1999, the Queen should have just given Edward a different dukedom. It must have been Phil’s deep desire to pass on his title to his favored younger son. And the Queen was on board with it. Clearly, bitter Chuck was never truly in agreement.
Bc it wasn’t within her power to give the title to Edward. When she gave Edward a title, her husband was the Duke of Edinburgh.
Once her husband died, the title immediately passed on to Charles, bc Charles was his oldest son, not Edward. That’s how the law works for these things.
The Queen was hoping, and promised Edward in writing, that once both the Queen and Prince Philip had both passed away, and Charles was king, Edward would be made the Duke of Edinburgh. Charles is now king, and he is refusing to make Edward the Duke of Edinburgh, reneging on the promise they all made to Edward.
I haven’t read all the comments so apologies if this has been asked and answered but if it was given to Charlotte would she pass the title down to her children? That was one of the problems with Edward getting it?
At this point Charles is pulling things out of his arse. Totally making it up as he goes along. For people “on the edges” the Wessexes do a power of work. I’d like to see their output compared to the Waleses. With most of the children of the current/oldest generation opting out/discarded from senior royal duties, who is supposed to do the work and for what? To be continuously publicly disrespected?
If Charlotte is given the title in her own right (which means her husband, if she had one, could not be the Duke of Edinburgh, only she could be Duchess of Edinburgh), then the letters patent would have to be issued to stipulate that her title could pass down to her heirs of the male body, lawfully begotten. They may even throw in a special remainder to allow it such that if there are no male heirs, a female heir can inherit, then pass it down to her own male heir. That’s the extent of what’s allowed for any peerage or peer title in Britain right now, at least for Dukedoms.
If she was DOE in her own right her eldest son, if she had one, would inherit on her death like any other peerage. No LP needed. Edward VII’s granddaughter Alexandra was created Duchess of fife in her own right when it became clear she’d have no brothers. Had her only son Alastair, who’d already succeeded to his grandfather’s dukedom of Connaught, not predeceased her he would’ve inherited the fife dukedom at her death. Instead, it went to her nephew James Carnegie. (Connaught went into abeyance and won’t be restored as it’s now part of Ireland)
I hope it goes to Prince Edward. And if it’s so important to honor the Queen., they should change the law/letters patent and make Lady Louise the Duchess of Edinburgh after Edward passes.
I bet the Queen would love it.
^^ That would never happen though, because James, as the male heir, automatically inherits his father’s dukedom. And thus, (if Edward ever receives DoE title), James’s future spouse, should he traditionally marry, would become the Duchess of Edinburgh.
You know what would be a fitting way to remember the Queen? Give the title to the person you promised her that you would give it to.
You know “honor the queen” by honoring what she asked you to do for her.
Honor her by honoring the promise you made to her.
Won’t Charlotte be known as the Princess Royal, like Anne? DofE seems like a step down regardless of its affiliation to Philip. The Wessexes have pulled their weight as royals (a low bar of course), but the title does befit them imo.
She most likely will but there’s no guarantee (and ask Edward how ‘things are understood’ works out). Anne didn’t become PR until more than two decades after her aunt Mary’s death so even when Anne passes Charlotte won’t necessarily be named quickly. It’s entirely up to the sovereign.