It’s been almost a decade since Kid Rock claimed that Beyonce doesn’t have “iconic hits.” He incurred the wrath of the Beyhive and has barely been seen since (lol, not really). There’s something about mega-successful women which brings out detractors within their own industry. Currently, Taylor Swift is riding a wave of success with The Tortured Poets Department, an overwrought album which is well-liked by her die-hard fans. But will TTPD have any major singles? When is the last time Taylor had an iconic hit song? These are the questions being asked by Neil Tennant, the English co-founder of The Pet Shop Boys. I listen to a local radio station which plays “West End Girls” a lot, but beyond that… The Pet Shop Boys were before my time. Anyway, this is what Tennant had to say:
The Pet Shop Boys have taken a pop at Taylor Swift’s music, saying it does not compare to legendary tracks by superstar Michael Jackson. Swift’s latest album The Tortured Poets Department is already the fastest-selling album of the year. And it will mark her 12th No1 album on Friday, when she is likely to enjoy her biggest opening week of sales. But despite the hysteria about the release, Neil Tennant, 69, thinks the US megastar’s music is disappointing.
He said: “I was looking at the chart today and it is all Taylor Swift. She sorts of fascinates me as a phenomenon because she is so popular. But then I listen to the records and I think, ‘Where are the famous songs? What is Taylor Swift’s Billie Jean?’ Shake It Off? I listened to that the other day and it is not Billie Jean, is it?”
The It’s a Sin singer said the success of Swift, 34, may be due to a desire for a collective experience. But added: “I like the fact it brings people together but the one disappointing thing is the music, not the lyrics.” Fans of Swift are guessing which tracks are about her British exes – actor Joe Alwyn and rocker Matty Healy.
But synth-pop idol Tennant believes her fascination with her love life has led to music lacking variety, unlike his fellow 1980s stars Culture Club. He said: “To have a successful pop career now you have to have a series of relationships, which are amazing and then break up tragically. I don’t think in the world of pop, people don’t write songs like Karma Chameleon anymore.”
The Pet Shop Boys were speaking in Kings Cross, Central London, in conversation ahead of the release of album Nonetheless on Friday. In 2016, Tennant and Chris Lowe described Taylor as the “Margaret Thatcher of pop music”. They said: “She seems to be about economics. There’s currently only one subject matter and that is the singer.”
“The Margaret Thatcher of pop music” is such an exquisite diss, omg. As for his current criticisms… as I said, Kid Rock said something remarkably similar about Beyonce. I think the difference is radio-play ubiquity, which is a function of a different era (an era where The Pet Shop Boys thrived). Even then, Taylor does get a lot of radio play and I would say she’s had a lot of big and well-known songs, even iconic hits: “Shake It Off,” “Anti-Hero,” “Cruel Summer,” “Blank Space,” “Bad Blood,” etc. Those are songs which everyone knows, even people outside the snake family. I like how he tosses off “Billie Jean” like every artist should have… one of the most successful and iconic songs of all time.
Photos courtesy of Avalon Red, Backgrid.
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- NEWARK, NEW JERSEY, USA – AUGUST 28: Taylor Swift wearing an Oscar de la Renta dress, Christian Louboutin shoes, and Lorraine Schwartz jewelry arrives at the 2022 MTV Video Music Awards held at the Prudential Center on August 28, 2022 in Newark, New Jersey, United States.,Image: 717369545, License: Rights-managed, Restrictions: , Model Release: no, Pictured: Taylor Swift, Credit line: Xavier Collin / Image Press Agency / Avalon
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- Pet Shop Boys perform at OVO Arena, Wembley in London on 17th June 2023 as part of their UK & European 2023 tour named Dreamland: The Greatest Hits Live.,Image: 784036882, License: Rights-managed, Restrictions: , Model Release: no, Credit line: Zoran Veselinovic / Avalon
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- Neil TENNANT Gesang und Chris LOWE Keyboard – Das britische Elektropop Duo PET SHOP BOYS mit ihrer Tour Dreamworld – The Greatest Hits Live bei ihrem Live Auftritt in der Lanxess Arena in Köln 01.07.2023 Köln Deutz NRW Deutschland *** Neil TENNANT vocals and Chris LOWE keyboard The British electropop duo PET SHOP BOYS with their tour Dreamworld The Greatest Hits Live at their live performance at the Lanxess Arena in Cologne 01 07 2023 Cologne Deutz NRW Germany,Image: 786741964, License: Rights-managed, Restrictions: imago is entitled to issue a simple usage license at the time of provision. Personality and trademark rights as well as copyright laws regarding art-works shown must be observed. Commercial use at your own risk., Model Release: no, Credit line: IMAGO/Marc John / Avalon
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- BEVERLY HILLS, LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, USA – JANUARY 07: Taylor Swift wearing custom Gucci and De Beers jewelry arrives at the 81st Annual Golden Globe Awards held at The Beverly Hilton Hotel on January 7, 2024 in Beverly Hills, Los Angeles, California, United States.,Image: 835219200, License: Rights-managed, Restrictions: , Model Release: no, Pictured: Taylor Swift, Credit line: Xavier Collin / Image Press Agency / Avalon
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- Las Vegas, NV – “Taylor Swift | The Eras Tour” at Allegiant Stadium on March 24, 2023 in Las Vegas, Nevada. Pictured: Taylor Swift BACKGRID USA 24 MARCH 2023 BYLINE MUST READ: MediaPunch / BACKGRID USA: +1 310 798 9111 / usasales@backgrid.com UK: +44 208 344 2007 / uksales@backgrid.com *UK Clients – Pictures Containing Children Please Pixelate Face Prior To Publication*
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- New York, NY – Pop star Taylor Swift arrives in a denim mini dress at The Ned NoMad MTV VMAs after party in New York City. Pictured: Taylor Swift BACKGRID USA 12 SEPTEMBER 2023 USA: +1 310 798 9111 / usasales@backgrid.com UK: +44 208 344 2007 / uksales@backgrid.com *UK Clients – Pictures Containing Children Please Pixelate Face Prior To Publication*
Haters gonna hate, hate, hate. Does the press have to continue giving mediocre white men attention for belittling more successful women?
Agree in principal, but in this case, I wouldn’t reduce one half of one of the most successful and popular pop bands for over 30 years as a mediocre white man.
ITA that these are not mediocre white men. They’re brilliant musicians and were absolutely groundbreaking as gay icons and AIDS activists. But I hate that Neil went there. They have completely different audiences. Why be a hater?
Neil might not be a mediocre white man, but of the Pet Shop Boys let’s just say…”I forgot that you existed”
@ Amy – Probably plenty of people in my life would forget given the chance but I’m like Cathy Bates level obsessed. With the music anyway. I recently bought the new hardback release of the book The Pet Shop Boys & The Political. Cost over $100. The bookstore clerk seriously side-eyed me. I told him it’s a collector’s item. 😂
I couldn’t name one song of Pet Shop Boys if my life depended on it. There isn’t one person on this planet who can’t name an “era” of TS. The woman has iconic ALBUMS, not just songs. She operates on another level. This man is a hater.
@Mina_Esq — It’s generational. I’m an old and couldn’t identify a Taylor Swift song if you paid me, but I grew up with the Pet Shop Boys so give ‘West End Girls’ a listen. It’ll broaden your musical horizons.
Not every critique is “hate,” in this instance his assessment seemed thoughtful even if you (or I) don’t agree. And OMG, to call the Pet Shop Boys “mediocre!” Girl, you need some music education!
OMG people can have different tastes.
@jaded If they were iconic, I’d know a song. I don’t think 80s techno pop ever enhanced anyone’s horizons.
LOL. Neil Tennant is absolutely not a mediocre white man. And while I disagree with what he said, Swift’s fans have to stop conflating every minor criticism of her with misogyny. It’s not anti-feminist to think Taylor Swift is not perfect.
Maybe not outright misogyny, but gatekeeping, when everyone else in the club is a white man, looks and quacks a lot like a duck.
@jaded I must not be on this planet because I couldn’t name one song or album by TS if my life depended on it. My God, people can’t say one thing about TS without incurring the wrath of her fans.
Misogynists have been given permission to behave badly across the spectrum.
I understand part of what he is saying, I think it’s quality vs quantity. But comparing Taylor Swift to Michael Jackson is ??? MJ had a bigger fan base and appealed to a people of all ages, races, etc. Not so sure that can be said of TS. But she is obviously successful and her fans love her. That should be commended for that and party on.
Leaving gender out of it, it’s just silly and ignorant to think Taylor Swift doesn’t have hits or brilliant songs, Rolling Stone continuously ranks the top (now almost 300) songs of Taylor swift).. the top 75 are just all outstanding.. and she is what 34? Dude, sit down.
Right?? Pet Shop Boys…give me a break.
Neil Tennant is no mediocre white man. Pet Shop Boys have not only been one a stellar act for decades, at their peak in the ‘80s and ‘90s they were among the greatest chroniclers
of Thatcher/Reagan-era society (or at least certain segments of it) and the devastation wrought by the AIDS crisis.
“We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together.”
I like Pet Shop Boys’ music better. But Neil points to a rare goal that even the most famous male artists and bands have never achieved. The era of Guinness book world-record hits ended long ago. Plus they were all written by men. The MeToo movement unfortunately skipped the Music Industry’s abuses against women.
Per Google:
According to Guinness World Records, “White Christmas” (1942) by Bing Crosby is the world’s best-selling single of all time, with over 50 million copies sold. Some other iconic songs include:
Smells Like Teen Spirit: By Nirvana (1991)
Imagine: By John Lennon (1971)
One: By U2 (1992)
Billie Jean: By Michael Jackson (1982)
Bohemian Rhapsody: By Queen (1975)
Hey Jude: By The Beatles (1968)
Like A Rolling Stone: By Bob Dylan (1967)
I Can’t Get No Satisfaction: By Rolling Stones (1965)
God Save The Queen: By Sex Pistols (1977)
Sweet Child O’Mine: By Guns N’ Roses (1987)
Huge Pet Shop Boys fan – I am a proud crone – but I don’t have to agree with Neil on this, as yeah, I am not Taylor Swift fan, but I can still bring Shake it Off to mind anytime because it was an inescapable bop. Gonna add (Let’s Make Lots Of) Money to my commute playlist today….
Their current tour is amazing – they play all the hits, and Neil’s voice is still fantastic. They’ve been playing arenas but i managed to get a ticket for the Royal Opera House in July and I cannot wait because the acoustics are amazing. It’s the most I’ve ever paid for a performance there – they’re more expensive than the ballet – but it’s going to be worth it.
The word hater needs to be retired. He’s an artist. A musician. And he was offering his opinion on the most famous living artist at the moment. And he’s not entirely wrong. It’s a combination of factors not just the artist but times have changed and it’s doubtful that any of todays hits, even by the biggest stars will be being played on the radio in 20-30 years; hell not even in five years.
He isn’t wishing Taylor ill well. Not saying he hopes her career tanks. He’s not a hater.
@Maeve – Unfortunately they didn’t bring Dreamworld to the US. Their three year delayed Unity Tour with New Order overlapped with Dreamworld so that’s the tour we got. It was a similar but shorter set. I was disappointed that after waiting three years, having bought the tix shortly before Covid, they didn’t actually do any joint sets with New Order. Rumor had it the original tour included Johnny Marr, for a full Electronic super group set, but Marr is in such high demand for touring I suspect it just couldn’t be arranged post Covid. Anyway Unity is the only time I’ve seen them in an arena. Their US tours play small theaters typically. Same for New Order. They’re both considered legacy acts here.
I’ve sadly never seen the PSBs live in London but I did see NO once at Brixton Academy. Absolutely epic.
Yeah this is a silly criticism. Firstly because while I really enjoy West end girls, I don’t think many people outside of people specifically into new wave / ’80s music or hardcore pet shop boys fans would even know that that existed so he doesn’t even have a ” Billie Jean “. And I’m glad you mentioned Kid Rock saying pretty much this exact thing verbatim about Beyonce too, this is just the go to lazy misogynistic criticism. I’m not even a huge Taylor fan, or even a casual fan, and I could name quite a few very popular songs. I never will understand these comparisons of you’re not as popular as the most popular person in this genre ever to exist so it doesn’t count. Which in her case whether you think it’s warranted or not isn’t even true.
All of this.
I’m not defending his comments but they are heralded in Britain as the most successful pop duo in history. In South America their recent tour sold out stadiums. They never broke that barrier in the US where they’re an 80s new wave band and staple of gay club dance music, but internationally they are massive.
And their Billie Jean is the AIDS ballad “Being Boring.”
I mean this kind of proves the point though doesn’t it? This is your perception as a fan, there are people in this comment section during the exact same thing for Taylor Swift. Comparing successful artists to the most successful artists of all time is never a fair comparison. And if you’re a fan of someone you’re going to be skewed towards knowing their accomplishments in a way that others aren’t. Which is why it’s lazy criticism.
I don’t know how many different ways to say I don’t agree with his comments and I hate that he did this. But for context, as many people don’t really know much about him. As I mentioned below, the actor David Tennant picked his stage name in honor of Neil. He really is a big deal. But this was not the way.
I wasn’t saying you agree with his comment. I was pointing out that this type of criticism is pointless and lazy because one there are other much more salient things you could criticize her about. But also my point about him was that just what you said he’s incredibly famous, well loved and respected and he doesn’t have a Billie Jean. You being a fan of his and knowing that song does not mean that the average person knows it. I’ve never heard of that song and I doubt that I’m alone. Doesn’t discount from how successful or famous or how important that song is to the people that it touched. Saying you don’t have a Billie Jean, is like saying you’re not as good of a choreographer as Alvin Ailey, you’re not as good of a composer as Mozart, you’re not as good of a photographer as Gordon Parks. It’s the type of comparison that will always leave another person lacking regardless of how good they actually are because they’re being compared to someone that’s kind of once in a lifetime.
But part of his point, I think, is that Taylor Swift’s sales do put her in the same realm as Michael Jackson. So its not about comparing me to Mozart, its more about comparing Beethoven to Mozart. And she doesn’t have the 9th symphony or Fur Elise to equate with marriage of figaro, you know? That’s the point he’s making.
@Dee – They’re not U.S. based (well they do live in NYC part time) so it’s also not a fair comparison to a mega U.S. based star (I mean MJ). Their fan base is primarily in Britain, Europe, and South America. If you listen to/read their lyrics, they are truly talented song writers. I also love their music, but even if it’s not to one’s taste, the quality of their song writing is paralleled by few others. There’s a certain objectivity to that, just as with poetry or literature.
Now, if we’re going to talk misogyny (a word I’m seeing a lot on this thread), let’s parse the lyrics to Billie Jean. It’s a truly awful song. I don’t begin to understand how it’s still referenced as a classic. I’ve always thought Beat It was the driving force behind that album, and Thriller is incomparable as a banger. But Neil was a music critic for a high profile magazine in the year that album was released, so he’s probably still thinking about the world changing epic popularity of it.
No, the PSBs are not as commercially successful by any measure as MJ because no one is, but on the point of having released singles that will continue to stand for decades as massively successful and highly influential to future artists, I stand by Being Boring, which is known globally, is the song they close their stadium sell out shows with – and – unlike Billie Jean – has poignance and social relevance.
I’m not familiar enough with Tay’s catalog to analyze it, but the phenomenon that is Tay will stand historically. Especially if she proves to be influential in a certain upcoming election.
@Becks1 and Betty Rose this is where I think we diverge. I’m saying more that even with other famous artists it’s subjective if they have a “Billie Jean” so to speak so to use that as a baseline doesn’t make sense to me. Not necessarily comparing me (ha!) as the same type of photographer as Gordon Parks but to say to use another black photographer oh Shannon McCollum or Lorna Simpson don’t have an American Gothic so they aren’t going to stand the test of time. This is hindsight to say this stuff about Michael because they absolutely weren’t saying this at the time about him. Now do I personally think she is going to be someone who gets the crowd moving 50 years from now with near universal known songs, eh, but we didn’t know he was going to do that back then either.
Sure, not every artist could or should have a “Billy Jean,” but maybe every billionaire, most famous on the planet pop star who’s sucked up every award in the industry should.
This.
Yes. He wasn’t comparing her music to his own because he is a less successful artist. He was comparing her music to that of similarly successful artists.
I know I am not of the Swiftie generation – the only one of the songs listed in this article I know is Shake It Off.
And it’s catchy and fun, but it’s no Billy Jean (or Candle in the Wind, or Like a Virgin…)
Music distribution and listening habits are so completely different than when Billie Jean came out, though. We were just talking with our kids about how insanely broad their musical tastes are compared to ours at their age, simply because we were only exposed to what they played on the radio. When record companies were pushing a single, you’d hear it every hour, and that repetition really helps push songs into the iconic status. My kids don’t even listen to the radio now.
I’m not a Taylor Swift expert, so I can’t really comment on her ability to write bangers. But she’s clearly doing something right, and maybe what she’s doing is telling a longer story with her music, or giving people a glimpse of raw emotion that resonates? I don’t know, but I think you have to take context into account.
Absolutely all of this. I came here to say the same thing. The systems that set up the ability to have those huge, monster hits do not exist anymore. There will likely never be something like “Billie Jean” again when our access to music is so democratized now.
Yes, this was the nuance in his entire comment. He wasn’t comparing her to Pet Shop Boys but that one of the biggest current pop stars should have a massive, career defining hit. Does she have a Billie Jean or Single Ladies? A song that years later the entire planet immediately thinks of when they think of her? Is Shake It Off a career defining song? I’d also like to see her grow and expand past love life and grudge songs. Maybe she never will and that’s fine too but it can be part of the conversation. I think it’s ok for people to give nuanced or constructive critiques about art. As long as they aren’t rude or mean, let them discuss the music of the biggest artist in the world.
I would say Blank Space is that song and for a newer song, I think Anyi-Hero could very well be. She is still actively making music and making new hits.
She has iconic albums, not just iconic songs. She is next level. Show me one person who can’t name an “era”. Just saying.
She has “eras” because she named her latest tour The Eras Tour and described it as a retrospective of her career. She defined it herself. I’m a huge admirer of Taylor as a business woman, she absolutely crushes it, and as a lyricist, but her music is so-so. I blame that on her producers and hopefully Taylor will work with some new blood in the future.
When I ask my music appreciation class if there are any songs from the postmodern era that they think are truly great, they immediately name music from the 70s but struggle to come up with anything from their own lifetime.
I think that’s fair not because art has deteriorated, but because we can’t look at contemporary work and know if it has stood the test of time.
I mean I’m not even a huge Taylor fan Wildest Dreams is up there in one of the most beautiful songs! Who is Neil Medicore turtle lip anyway?
He is talking about music, not lyrics. So, Wildest Dreams is a bad example since it is a rip-off version of Without You by Lana Del Rey.
Lollll
Antihero
Invisible string
August
Willow
Cruel Summer
Getaway Car
All of 1989 basically
All too well
22
Never ever getting back together
Romeo and juliet
Mine
These are just the huge ones off the top of my head
Sorry. I like Taylor. My niece is a huge Swiftie.
Unless you are a Swiftie, I don’t think you would know any of those songs. Not all of them were even singles!
I think what’s fair here is that Taylor isn’t great with melody. You can tell
She came from country, which is all about lyrics.
Pet Shop Boys went to art school then started a band. Different era. Would Taylor be better if she d stayed in school and become a singer in her early twenties? Probably
Literally have never heard of any of those songs Mika.
😂 Within her large fan base, sure, they’re probably huge. But I’d be willing to bet the general public has no idea about at least half of that list.
As just a casual Swift fan I can tell you I know just a few of those you listed. Deep cuts fans love are not what he’s referencing when he’s talking about Billie Jean, a song I’m pretty certain 90% of the planet would recognize.
But have you ever listened to…the radio? I am by no means a Swiftie but I partake in contemporary culture, I dont want to be that 30 something who still listens to just what they loved in high school. I always listen to new bands and pop acts on Spotify and take music recs from my students. While I don’t like Taylor as much as I like say, The Beaches or Hozier or Pearl Jams new album, she writes good music? I really loved folklore? I feel like i relate a tiny bit to her recent stuff because i also dated an inappropriate guy after the end of a long term relationship? Does that make me a Swiftie? Does it have to be so black and white?
Walk to random person on the street and ask them which Taylor songs they know. Shake it off and maybe the Romeo and Juliet song.
Social media keeps people in a bubble and that’s why many can’t handle what Neil Tennant is saying. Like how many Taylor songs does your grandpa know? That’s the test.
i’m not a taylor swift fan, and i have never heard of any of the songs you mention (and only shake it off as listed in the article. i’ve heard of bad blood, but only because of the gossip around it). wildest dreams is the only song of hers that i’ve heard that i actually like, and even that is ruined a bit by her colonial cosplay video for it. but i also don’t think tennant is really criticizing swift particularly. he goes out of his way to say it’s not the lyrics (which she’s known for) so much as the actual music. and from other articles i’ve seen here, that’s a more comment complaint given the staleness of her work with her current producer. a lot of comments around tortured poets talks about how people wish she would change things up a bit, musically.
I mean he is not wrong that Taylor is not MJ. Michael Jackson’s songs are iconic because of the songs, no longer Michael himself. And because of the music, not just the lyrics. MJ’s songs are on a different level. Taylor also doesn’t have a Respect, Jolene or an I Will Always Love You to name a few iconic songs in terms of lyrics. A friend of mine pointed out that Nirvana’s music has not really stood the test of time. It just isn’t played anymore and it’s not garnering new fans. Huge in its time and iconic for *my* generation, but not of the timeless icon level. I think Taylor is rn at a similar place. I don’t think in 40 years, you’ll see reinterpretations of her songs by new singers, like you do with Dolly’s music for example. That isn’t a slam on Taylor. She’s a huge star and makes good music. But, it is not MJ, Dolly level
She actually does, and she is the one artist that is beloved on every continent. But sure we will continue to diminish her because why not because you don’t like her so it makes sense to you to pretend no one else does or no one else knows her work.
That just isn’t true.
“Every continent”? Completely incorrect. Hyperbolic statements like this are what make people side eye Taylor and the Swifties. She hasn’t come close to touching the ubiquitous nature of MJ’s popularity, no matter what the media and her fanbase claim.
I was trying to edit and was to late I wasn’t comparing popularity of Michael Jackson I never would there was no comparison. But she is the biggest thing right now, and not for nothing I was a massive massive MJ fan, still am though a little harder with the stuff. And he got the same kind of dismissal Taylor is getting, he isn’t as good as the Beatles or Bob Dylan. This is old people screaming at the wind. Also this is a stupid argument I love Taylor’s and Beyoncé’s music, just like Michael’s and I believe they have songs that will be Billie Jeans but we don’t know that now because we can’t see 20/40 years in the future.
However, which continent does she not have fans? They are doing listening parties in Kenya for her new album? She was the number one streamed artist in every country that Spotify is in except for India (number 2), Nigeria (number 3) and one other European country that she was (number 2).
So I guess you are right it was hyperbolic because she probably isn’t killing it in Antarctica. My bad.
What you just claimed based on my comment is so absolutely not what I wrote that I decline to respond at all. Please step back and reassess how you *read* and respond
I dunno about Nirvana. Just read an article in The Guardian about the popularity of Nirvana with gen z listeners. And circumstantial evidence, but my husband and I both teach and the teens we know are still listening to Nirvana (and lots of other music from many different eras).
Nahhh I dunno…I reckon kids are still discovering/listening to nirvana and grunge.
I’m older now but I got massively into grunge and obsessed with nirvana at 13 and that was in like ‘05.
The youths are defo into 80s and 90s music, and still discovering it.
Maybe not the (for lack of a better word) “basic” kids, who are obsessed with Taylor and the like.
I don’t think he’s wrong.
She’s a bright businesswoman, but her larger-than-life success is something we’re all trying to understand and make sense of. She’s talented, but not necessarily exceedingly more talented than other songwriters or musicians.
I think he has some kind of point too.
I also feel this “where’s Billie Jean” thing might be some sort of generational approach.
He the stars before internet had to have a turning point hit if they wanted to last, It’s too early to know how the Swift catalogue will survive on the long run.
These are good points, it also makes you wonder if hits like Billie Jean really happen anymore, given the fragmented nature of music listenership and how music is consumed differently in some ways now (little snippets on social media, for example). I suppose time will tell!
this is really interesting to me, because it reminds me of an article on here from a few months ago. it was about an interview with jennifer aniston about how she was lamenting that there are no ‘movie stars’ anymore. i agree with lanita that there are just so many different ways to consume media these days, it’s hard to compare. i never listen to the radio, and going to the movies isn’t that same treat it used to be when i was little (i was born in the 70s). i can stay at home and listen and watch whatever i want whenever i want. it’s a totally different world, and it just doesn’t create ‘stars’ or hits in the same way.
Music seems to be consumed o Tik-Tok a lot. And you can see how a certain song ignites interest when Gen Z discovers it (Kate Bush’s “Running Up That Hill” being a recent example). Even though music is consumed differently now, a strong song does seem to get rediscovered somehow by a new generation. I guess we’ll see if that happens for Taylor Swift in the future.
agree
he is right, of course. Commercial success is not always directly proportional to talent.
I will take that she moved the needle to help get Biden elected over Billie Jean. Neil, I would like it to be 1983 forever also. But it’s not, move on.
My eyes just rolled into the back of my head, lol.Taylor makes some good bops, but pretending like she had some major impact on Biden’s election is laughable.
they were able to show that thousands of people registered to vote specifically due to her, so… yep.
Charlie, keep rolling all you want. But yes she did have an impact when she supported Biden and Kamala. She moves young women to action and it’s a good thing. And if it’s wrapped in love songs of a teenage mind. So be it.
I can’t take 4 more years of Trump.
I couldn’t name one of Taylor’s songs.
A few days ago I was trying to think if I could name any Taylor Swift songs- the only one I could remember was Shake It Off 😬.
It’s the only one I had heard until recently, when someone in the gym squee’d at a Swift song being in the rotation. I didn’t know which one it was, so I asked. I probably should have just asked her to kindly jump in front of a bus, the reaction would have been more pleasant. Wow….
So this is an interesting conversation to have if people don’t just dismiss it out of hand because its insulting to Taylor.
billie jean was both a smash hit and an amazing song. Songs do not have to be the latter to be the former, and a lot of smash hits actually aren’t that amazing. And for Billie Jean, we also have the benefit of knowing the song holds up almost 40 years after it was released. We don’t know how well Taylor’s songs will hold up in 40 years, especially outside of the Swift fandom.
Taylor has had a lot of smash hits obviously, and people can debate the quality of those songs (as we have done here a lot lately.) Does she have a Billie Jean? I’m not sure – but honestly the majority of pop stars DON’T have a Billie Jean, that’s why Michael Jackson was such a phenomenal artist, especially in the 80s.
Ha, jinx! Just wrote pretty much the same. It’s not a slam on Taylor, but it’s also true, imo.
ETA: Another example is Tracy Chapman and what we just saw with the cover. Fast Car, I mean sooo many of her songs are ICONIC in the test of time sense as you say. We just saw that this year. Fast Car, I’m Sorry, Talkin Bout a Revolution, these songs are still played today and when *new* listeners here them, they are hooked. It’s just a different level.
Oh, that’s an interesting aspect to it that I hadn’t considered. When we think of iconic songs, a lot of times those songs have been covered by other artists or have influenced other artists. So, now we see recently how Fast Car has become iconic because it brought together different generations of fans through the Luke Combs version. And then there’s Jolene and the covers of that song. Yesterday. Hallelujah. Etc.
Exactly. And I would also say there are iconic singers that you may know but couldn’t name an exact song. I can’t honestly name a Willie Nelson song, but I know all about his activism and who he is. That isn’t the knock on him in any way it’s just means that his songs have not culturally impacted me in the same way. To me it would be like saying Tim Hardaway wasn’t a great basketball player because he’s not as well known or feted as Michael Jordan.
I actually thought about this topic (but not Taylor specifically) the other day while watching the Bob Marley biopic. Marley died very young but left behind a catalog of timeless classics that many of us still listen to and enjoy 40 years later. It’s a rare feat.
Artists whose music stands the test of time is a VERY exclusive club and it will be years before that is or is not proven with Taylor’s music – I personally don’t think it will but she has clearly put in a lot of effort and money to cultivate her fan base who are the ones who have made her the success she is. She has talent but is it deserving of all the accolades she gets – that remains to be seen as she also benefits from a certain privilege.
The 80s managed to have Michael Jackson, Madonna and Whitney Houston at about the same time which hasn’t happened since, especially since monoculture isn’t a thing any more and the music industry is more splintered. So there probably won’t be another hit like Billie Jean again.
Remember when Neil Young made the video “This Note’s For You” that skewered MJ, Madonna, and Whitney? I think the video eventually got banned on MTV (rightly so because of its racist and misogynistic undertones), but it did win a big music award at the time which underscored the resentment of the old guard toward these new mega artists at the time. Yet, songs from these 3 have stood the test of time. We’ll see how TS’ songs rate after 30 years.
All the commentary – in the media from music critics, on socials by fans, here on this celebrity blog – all any of it says to me is that music is a uniquely subjective experience. People love what they love, hate what they hate.
And often some older white dude is going to poo poo the work of a woman, or those younger, or not a white dude like them simply because they aren’t the target audience or they don’t personally get it. Old folks have been all “these young pop stars aren’t REAL musicians” forever.
Like, i doubt every older-60’s person in the peak MJ era was fan-boying over Billie Jean, the enduring nature of its lyrics or music at the time. They may have either not followed him or not thought much of his musical skill and thought he was just a flash of commercial success – selling out concerts, having wild crowds at his appearances, showing up on tv, in People magazine and if they bothered to think about it been all “why’s this guy a phenomenom? he’s no Beach Boys or Johnny Cash or Chuck Berry or Frank Sinatra. Where’s his “My way”? Or whatever song is his reference point.
And that’s before we get into how online music distribution, streaming has changed the landscape of the music industry. He may be missing the cultural impact because he doesn’t know where to look for it. Add in a bit of boy’s club mindset and it seems he’s also missing the artistic value of some of what she’s done the same way some people hand wave away the value of female led films as “just chick flicks”
Caveat – i’m not a Swiftie and assume there’s absolutely some valid music criticism / analysis about her songs, albums, etc. but as a casual listener i can think and sing several of her iconic hits and have a couple off folklore that will forever be part of my COVID era soundtrack. And watching younger people moving along to her music, loving it, wearing bracelets, anticipating and discussing her new music, appearances? Just like young people did with Thriller back in the day? I think he’s not tuned in to current culture enough to be issuing any proclamations.
He’s no Jann Wenner, as far as racist, sexist dismissal of talented artists who aren’t white dudes … but he’s sounding like he read the same hymnal.
Well put.
Agree wholeheartedly to every single bit of this comment. People weren’t 100% on board with Michael Jackson and his literal I’m causing my fans to pass out and ambulances have to be at my concerts success and were questioning it as well in 1984. This is hindsight. Who knows where she will be in 2054 as far as impact. I didn’t think Drake would still have number one songs and albums 16 years after his first appearances on mixtapes.
I didn’t see your comment before I commented below, but ITA. This is misogyny. Young women drive cultural innovation, as sociological studies say. Some demographics (ahem) cannot handle it. Thus, what women like never counts as “real art.”
Swift is a juggernaut, even if she doesn’t have a Billie Jean. The decision to put her in this kind of comparison is completely misguided.
Omg this is just a bravo perfect comment. And I was little but I remember people making fun of me for thinking Michael as the most amazing perfect talented person ever because he wasn’t the Beatles or Bob Dylan. So no when Michael was where Taylor is currently people didn’t respect his work like they do now, (industry people). They didn’t want to give credit to a Black man, and now this guy doesn’t want to give it to a woman.
And listen we will see if it holds up but also as a massive die hard Michael fan, Billie Jean is like his worst song. It is still great but it’s his Me! Sorry not sorry.
Great points NoB. This reminds me of a type of pop culture story that crops up every so often along the lines of “7 out of 10 children don’t recognize Mickey Mouse!” It creates panic from the olds who are shocked an iconic character from their youth isn’t beloved by a younger generation. And the story never mentions 10 out of 10 kids recognize every character from the Disney projects made in their lifetimes. This should be less a commentary on Swift’s hitmaking ability more about how streaming has also killed monoculture in music, Top 40 radio doesn’t have the sway it once had and how many new radio formats are out there today compared to the early 80s, making it exceedingly difficult to have a crossover hit in this current era. Given these and other factors, it makes Swift’s level of success even more remarkable in my view.
Okay….I’ma say this…when “West End Girls” came out in 1986…they played it from the “Hood to the Woods”…I could hear it in House mixes in the clubs on the Southside of Chicago like Sauers where Black folks partied…or I could hear it at Medusa’s up North which was predominantly White…same with “Let’s make lots of $$$” ….Prince…George Michael…Whitney…Beyonce has several songs that cross over like that…Pink does…Gwen does…Sam Smith…Adele…does…Taylor dosen’t …That’s the slant I got from Neil’s statement …and I can SEE where he’s coming from
Meantime back on Salty Isle in 1986, my mum & dad were clubbing to Chicago house music like Frankie Knuckles, Jesse Saunders and Marshall Jefferson at the Hippodrome. I am 99% sure my first 5 months in the womb were spent feeling the base of Chicago house music
Your parents sound cool as hell! I remember seeing Frankie Knuckles once at a live tapping in the early aughts as a teen into house music, it was a legendary experience!
@Hannah…One of the reasons I ❣️ Europe is because they ALWAYS kept my “HouseHeads” fed❣️ And some of those artist were my Family Fa Real❣️❣️❣️
I know Taylor’s radio hits, but I’m not a huge fan of her music. That said, I do have questions about this: Billy Jean is from my childhood. I think it’s a weird comparison to make for that reason alone. The other thing I’m wondering is if NT has a connection to nepo-baby Matty Healy, since TS just apparently dropped an album highlighting this dude negatively (?—I haven’t listened to it, but am going by what’s been written about it)?
It’s true that not only very few artists will have a hit on the level of Billie Jean. But I think his point is that, given Taylor’s phenomenal success, wouldn’t you expect at least some songs on that level?
I kind of agree with him – I find the scale of Taylor’s success a bit baffling, because I just don’t get the music. And he’s entitled to his opinion like anyone else, I don’t really get this thing of shouting down any criticism (however mild) of Taylor.
I also find the level of her success baffling.
I enjoy her music, but it’s nothing new. By all accounts even her new double album is way too repetitive.
What she’s good at is selling herself.
Like the Kardashians. Nothing good about that family, they are doing nothing in life but selling drama but boy, they are phenomenal at it.
So he’s not exactly wrong, but… I wish people would stop using Taylor as the example. There’s many mediocre white men who reach levels what they just shouldn’t, like Harry Styles. What a flat pancake he is.
OMG, I’m dying at flat pancake.
So Styles is a crepe?
I agree. My perception of Taylor is that she makes music for teenagers. None of her popular songs that I hear on the radio have ever inspired me to listen to more of her because it all sounds the same to me. Her songs are for a demo that I will never be part of.
I saw a video on Twitter yesterday of a group of young women, I assume in their early 20s, listening to Taylor’s album. They freaked out when they realized the lyrics were about her intimate relationship with TK. I want to introduce them to 90s Madonna and Janet Jackson lyrics so they really have something to blush about. lol
The criticism also holds when you start comparing Taylor Swift to other female artists. I’m not into pop music, I only encounter those songs that deeply penetrate the culture. Single Ladies, Formation, Poker Face, Umbrella, Dirty, Baby one more time, from the olden days Papa don’t preach, I wanna dance with somebody. I can’t remember hearing a Swift song. I only know about certain songs of her through other people referencing them.
This whole thing where people can’t even thoughtfully critique Taylor Swift is getting ridiculous.
I wonder if the conversation would be different if he has used “I Wanna Dance With Somebody”, “I Will Always Love You”, “My Heart Will Go On”, “Natural Woman”, “At Last” or another diva song. Those are the Billie Jean’s of the pop and RnB ladies world.
**Note: Diva songs of the same era as Billie Jean, I should have added.
If something isn’t for you, easy fix, just ignore it!
He’s not wrong. I know two songs Shake it off and Bad blood and that’s probably because they’re most hip hop of all her songs.
He compared her to MJ because online swifties is saying she passed beyond MJ in terms of success and fame as an artist. That’s why the comparison isn’t a good thing. Taylor is Taylor, it doesn’t do good for her to compare her to other legendary artists. If you look at where Taylor was and where she is going, she doesn’t care about music, she is a songwriting artist. She focuses on the lyrics, not the music itself. That is her number 1 priority and specialty. That’s why it was so weird to listen to bizarre & cringe lines from her latest album for me.
Are they really saying that?? lol that’s hilarious
He sounds like “the old man screams at clouds” meme.
PSB have a new album out. Criticizing Taylor, whether warranted or not, is a sure fire way for him to get publicity.
I think using Michael Jackson as any sort of metric is a real issue.
Stop looking for the next Billie Jean.
It’s not coming, it won’t ever come. That’s why it’s Billie Jean.
Too late to edit but I wanted to add here as well, it’s past time to stop using Taylor as the example. (As well as MJ)
Why not Harry Styles? He is a flat pancake.
Why are people not saying “where is Harry’s ‘Pride (in the name of love)’?”
So maybe he isn’t as big a TS but he is a vanilla pudding musician who is reaching dizzying heights of fame for no reason.
Because of the amount of money she’s worth, I can see why he’d use Billy Jean as a metric.
I think he’s trying to wrap his head around a billionaire and someone who owns so many Grammys not having a song that will achieve that status. That’s my guess.
But, yes, the vibe of that song is hard to duplicate.
I think TS has a ton of well known hits. Were 69 yr olds listening to Pet Shop Boys back in the 80s? I could see why he doesn’t get the TS hype just on his age alone.
That said… I did think during the Grammys, during the Joni Mitchell tribute, that despite her success TS doesn’t have a song that will endure the way Both Sides Now has. And I wondered if she realized that, listening to that performance.
He is basically making the same point as Courtney Love did recently about Taylor’s music. If I were Taylor, I would take them up on that challenge. I think she can do it! She’s stayed in a very safe comfortable zone for her whole career and is brilliant there, but maybe it’s time to expand and flex her talents. She has a lot of perspective now in her 30s. She certainly has nothing to prove but it would be a fun and interesting challenge for her to undertake. Do it Tay!
He’s not wrong. Taylor has amazing songs however to endure the test of time is something wise entirely. We shall see.
I go way back, way way back in so far as listening to music. As in pre British Invasion, Golden Oldies don’t you know. And grew up in a household that listened to everything, classic, blues, folk, rock ‘n roll, disco, punk, American Songbook, cumbias, jazz, country western . . . I’ve listened to TS and nothing I’ve heard moves me. She’s wildly popular and on her way to billionaire level if not already so there’s that, shrug. Last night I listened to Talking Heads and Chic. I love music.
Hmm. I am sure the Swifties on here will have seen the video of Taylor bringing on Robbie Williams at Wembley during the Reputation tour.
Now a lot of Americans won’t know Robbie, but the point about that clip is that she starts off singing his song at the piano, and the crowd are joining in before she has even reached the end of the first line. When he rises up through the stage the crowd lose it – to the extent that Taylor is visibly freaking out at the reception.
Robbie and Taylor barely need to sing half the song’s lines – the audience are singing it so loudly.
Robbie isn’t famous in America and most Americans don’t know the song I am talking about. But the thing is anyone from pretty much any other Western country reading this will know what the song is without me needing to name it.
The song is iconic wherever Robbie is a star (so not in North America but in a huge chunk of the rest of the world).
Taylor *is* world famous. But she doesn’t have a song like that. And the song was released in 1997, so frankly it was probably older than a lot of her fans at the gig that night. But they *all*knew it.
I immediately knew what song you were talking about – I grew up in Asia when it was first released and it was quite popular there too. Looked up the Taylor concert with Robbie on YouTube and surprised myself that I actually still remember all the lyrics!
@KT: I was going to leave a general comment about Taylor’s songs and how there certainly are some bangers there, but then I read your comment and now I have to mentally backtrack.
I wasn’t yet born when Billie Jean was released so while I know the song and the album itself, it didn’t serve to make me understand Tennant’s point. But Angels? That song I know and could probably sing if you woke me in the middle of the night. What a perfect example to illustrate your point. Thank you for giving me such good food for thought!
You Belong with Me and Love Story will likely be her “Billie Jean.”
They are from a more radio-centric era. Taylor sells albums not singles now.
Also – Jack Antonoff is no Quincy Jones.
Hallelujah, yes. Quincy Jones studied with the best teacher of the 20th century, Nadia Boulanger. The man has the credentials AND the insane talent. Jack Antonoff could never.
I don’t really care about TS or Bey one way or the other but I can name some songs. when I hear other people cover them sometimes I really like them. are they timeless? I dont know but im not sure im crazy about billie jean either plus im not crazy about MJ for other reasons so im not a great judge. during quarantine I watched several video essays about how it has always been cool to dislike what girls and young women like and put it down publicly. it made me examine my own criticism of things and ive been guilty of that too. all this hyper examination of a couple of successful women makes me suspicious. there are so many mediocre white men out there doing very well that seem to fly under the radar. why not use them as an example like ever?
The Margaret Thatcher of pop music is the PERFECT description of Taylor and her music.
I concur!
I have been obsessed with the Pet Shop Boys since I was 12. I listen to them every day. I’ve met them. I flew to London to see their exhibition at the British Museum. I feel a deep connection to David Tennant for naming himself as an homage to Neil (in case anyone didn’t know that delightful factoid). But this is wrong. I hate that Neil did this. Stop gate keeping.
David Tennant is the man my husband knows he’d get the toss for, well, for a night at least, ha! I did know that fact, surprisingly. 😉
Your husband should consider it bragging rights if David Tennant steals his woman! For myself, I just work on perfecting his Broadchurch signature line: “What’s the point of you then!” 😂😂😂
I agree that Swift doesn’t have a Top 10 *forever* pop hit, but she has a lot of incredibly solid songs.
Calling this as misogyny. Again (this is SO tired), what women like, and especially young women, isn’t “art.” Only what old white men SAY is art is really art. [eyeroll]
It’s not misogyny. Not from Neil Tennant of the Pet Shop Boy, who was pop critic and editor of Smash Hits magazine, that celebrated pop music and championed a lot of bands (including boybands) that young girls love.
Neil Tennant coined the phrase ‘Imperial phase’ to describe an artist at the height of their powers who can pull off anything. He has been studying pop music and pop careers for longer than Taylor Swift has been alive, as well as making it.
It’s not misogyny to consider pop music and pop artists worthy of serious critique.
Yes, I agree. I’m Gen X so that might be more true of older generations than Gen Z or Millenials, I don’t know. But this guy sounds like some of my male friends from college, honestly.
Taylor has plenty of songs that people outside of her fandom know. It was only about a year ago that I realized “Blank Space” was a Taylor Swift song. I knew it very well because it was always on the radio, and I had no idea she sang it. Same goes for a few of her other later radio hits. Until last week when the album dropped, I couldn’t go into my local Good Will without hearing “Cruel Summer” playing at least once on whatever station they use.
The Pet Shop Boys, Prince, Madonna, Michael Jackson, Culture, Club, Eurythmics, Whitney…were all part of my teenage/20s years of listening to music, and it may not be a popular opinion, but Neil Tennant hit the nail on the head. Taylor’s music is catchy and hits with her fans. We won’t know if her hits are iconic for at least a decade, mainly because the word “iconic” gets tossed around a bit too loosely…..
I know Taylor’s songs — especially the diss tracks haha. I don’t think anyone is unfamiliar with her songs.
However, I think there’s a special vibe that comes over me when I hear certain songs. And I think this happens to other people as well. When “Billie Jean” comes on, you can see people of all ages go “ohhhhhhhh” and they get super-excited to start jamming to it. And this reaction seems to cut across all genders and racial lines. I can’t really see the same thing happening when “Shake It Off” comes on. I sort of think that maybe that’s what he he’s talking about.
I forgot to say that that kind of reaction that Billie Jean inspires also seems to cut across generations. People of all ages seem to have a reaction when it comes on.
This past week has been VERY enlightening about just how entrenched the cult-like and reactionary behavior of Swifties has become. It’s always been bad, but it’s grown to be more than a little ridiculous at this point. No, every criticism of your idol is NOT automatically misogyny or being a “hater”. No, people are NOT going to let you make grandiose declarations (which often put down or minimize other artists in the process) without challenging you to back them up.
Taylor Swift has won a lot of Grammys. Most likely more than Michael Jackson or anyone else.
So she does get her critical due from old white people, I think. She’s not someone I would really think of as a victim of old white people’s criticisms, despite one slightly critical comment from this guy.
If it’s a choice between her or Beyonce, my guess is that the old white men in the Grammy’s academy are going to give her the award.
Beyoncé has actually won more Grammys than Taylor, MJ or anyone else – She just hasn’t won Album of the Year.
But isn’t that the one that has the most prestige attached to it? It is a point of contention for Jay-Z that Beyonce hasn’t won that particular award, and he brought it up during his speech at the Grammys recently when he was being honored. He called out the Grammy voting block, and the fact that he brought it up seems to suggest the importance and significance of that particular category.
Taylor has won the Album of the Year an astounding number of times. According to Google, Taylor Swift has won ‘the most Album Of The Year wins of any artist at the GRAMMYs.”
That means the old white people are giving her the prestige award over everyone else. Old white people are giving her their stamp of approval.
I went and looked up in which categories Beyonce has won and dominated in. The categories in which she has won are the categories that she most likely wouldn’t appear to compete directly with Taylor Swift (i.e R&B and urban contemporary, etc.) She might come into competition with her husband, Jay-Z, who is tied with Beyonce for most nominations, but not Taylor Swift. It’s not likely that Swift’s “Love Story” would be nominated for best R and B song.
The Album of the Year award is where she would come in to direct competition with Taylor Swift. And in that category, which seems to include all genres, Taylor Swift always triumphs.
I was not making an argument – just stating a fact. Beyonce has won more Grammys than any artist in history. But yes, AOTY is the most prestigious and racism is the reason that she hasn’t won and why she is most often nominated in the R&B categories. She also makes great Pop music.
I guess my central thesis is that when people say Taylor Swift is dismissed by the older male generation, I don’t think the accolades she’s received reflect that to the degree it might do so for other artists. She gets approval when she goes head-to-head with others in categories where all musical genres are taken into account. She seems to get the mainstream and overall stamp of approval from everyone despite a few criticisms here and there.
Well.. maybe not on this album – remains to be seen – but Taylor Swift is not done, folks. Just a thought ☺️
She’ll have future hits – there’s no denying. But she’s 34. A lot of artists have made iconic hits in their twenties.
Hmm coming from a guy who had one hit almost 40 years ago?
Go away old man the world has moved on
you obviously have no idea who this ‘old man’ is and what he’s done with his career. these comments are killing me. so many swift defenders who don’t know who neil tennant is, saying he’s too old to really ‘get it’. while they are too young to know who he is and what he’s done. it’s ironic to say the least. there’s also a lot of american-centric thinking here. pet shop boys are huge everywhere but the u.s. so who cares or knows about him. also, swift is the biggest thing on the planet right now, and her fans are making insane comparisons about her to music’s biggest icons. that only invites discourse. just because someone disagrees with those comparisons doesn’t mean they’re out of touch or misogynist. you can not like taylor swift or her music and still be a feminist. jesus.
They released a new album this week. It’s pretty good. Please Google Pet Shop Boy’s hits for some great reading on their entire 35 year catalog.
Why are you insulting an entire generation of music lovers? Old musicians are great, the younger ones not so much.
I kind of agree. I don’t mean it as a diss and I like her and have listened to her music on occasion but couldn’t name a song beyond shake it off. Neither can my mother. But she sure knows Billie Jean. And I think the comparison is valid because both Swift and Jackson are multinational multiyear music superstars. The commen t didn’t seem specifically insulting to Taylor but more like a comment on the industry nowadays?
“I don’t mean it as a diss and I like her and have listened to her music on occasion but couldn’t name a song beyond shake it off”
I agree. I couldn’t name but maybe one or two of her songs, but maybe it’s not the correct comparison. Maybe her stuff is more concept album than singles. Idk.
But no one can deny her cultural impact.
This is such an interesting subject. My 16 year old daughter and I have been talking about it recently. She’s surrounded by Swifties but doesn’t like Taylor Swift’s music at all herself. She thinks there’s a real difference between the way Swift fans listen to music and the way she does. Swifties are reading lyrics, looking for clues, solving mysteries, and relating to the emotions expressed. It’s all about the words, not the music.
My daughter’s listening to the music, to the sound of the singer’s voice, to melody and rhythm. The words themselves are secondary.
If you listen to music this way, Swift’s songs are disappointing. There’s just not a lot going on musically. The songs are very minimal backdrops for the lyrics. I listen to music the same way my daughter does and I find the songs forgettable, literally. I hear them but they don’t stick in my head at all, despite my best efforts. I like Lover and know a handful of her other songs but that’s it.
She’s a fascinating phenomenon though and I’m interested in her. She’s an excellent business person and I really admire her ambition and effort.
“to the music, to the sound of the singer’s voice, to melody and rhythm. The words themselves are secondary.:
That’s how I listen to songs too. Some people can fuse all these things with words, but I don’t think of Taylor Swift as one of them. I can remember the melody AND words to either a Fiona Apple or Tori Amos song (or heck, even Debbie Gibson haha), but that doesn’t seem to happen for me as strongly with any of Taylor Swift’s songs. Even when it comes to lyrics, I don’t think I have a strong memory for Taylor’s lyrics. I can remember the lyrics (and music) to a Simon and Garfunkel song, but I draw blank with some of Taylor Swift’s songs, although I can enjoy her songs in the moment I’m listening to them. However, I forget the experience a minute later. I don’t have a good memory for her songs — maybe some of that comes down to her voice. I can recognize that Michael Jackson has the superior singing voice haha.
This is a great point! I am a lyrics person first and foremost. I care about what they are saying than I do about the music. I love Taylor for her lyricism
I think you’ve made a great point! One of my daughters is a huge Swiftie. She listens to the whole album over and over and listens for the lyrics/poetry of Taylors songs. Some of her favourite songs are ones that will never make it to the radio so unless you are a Swiftie you won’t have heard it. Personally some of Taylor’s song I really like others not so much. I don’t think she’s a strong singer especially earlier in her career but I do think she has grown that way as she has matured. I do think that she may not ever have a Billie Jean song but Love Story is one that I think a lot of people know even if they aren’t Swifties. I have a family member in their late 70’s whose musical tastes runs to Neil Diamond yet even she knows Love Story. I’ve seen TikTok’s at Hockey Games where Love Story started to play during a break in action and the fans in the areana continued to sing it loudly after it stopped playing and the action on the ice had started up again. Is her new album my cup of tea? Not as much as some of her prior work but that’s ok, Taylor’s fans say that it’s more for those that have been with her long term. I think that’s what she planned. The only Pet Shop Boys song I know off the top of my head is West End Girls. Their fans will know more and that’s okay for them, just like it’s okay for Taylor’s fans to know the majority of her work. Everyone has their own taste and that’s why we have such a variety of music in the world. I suspect some of his statement about Taylor is just bitter grapes that he has a new album out this week that won’t be able to get the kind of attention that Taylor’s has this last week breaking all kinds of streaming records.
I may be like your daughter, Jas. I listen to “voices” first. I need the voice to be something striking: Maria Callas, Nina Simone, Amy Winehouse, Billie Holiday, Sarah Vaughan, Bette Carter, Cher, Miley Cyrus, Bryan Ferry, Joseph Arthur, Tom Waits, and about 12 living and performing opera singers. Voice reigns supreme with me. After that, it’s the music and melody. And I turn to poetry for beautiful lyrics.
Note: I played “Billie Jean” before dinner every night for a few years. And I never even looked up the lyrics! (running to look up lyrics).
I see “Sassy” ie Sarah Vaughn but no Ella Fitzgerald?
Young Gen X here, I listen the same way, though my tastes have run a little harder. Not even in parallel with Swifties lol. If you want some good voices from hard rock, I suggest Shinedown (Brent Smith), Alter Bridge (Myles Kennedy), Evanescence (Amy Lee) and Halestorm (Lzzy Hale). Also The Hu if you want to hear some interesting singing techniques! The lyrics are also on point!
He did say that “she sort of fascinates me as a phenomenon” but that the music fails for him, not the lyrics. He did give her brownie points for what she does well. He didn’t do a wholesale criticism of her.
NGL: had to google Neil Tennant. Now, Taylor Swift, I know.
I get what he means.
The closest Taylor Swift has to a Billie Jean or a Vogue or a Baby One More Time or a Piano Man or a Livin’ On A Prayer or a Smells Like Teen Spirit is Love Story, I think. Its use in The Bear last season was perfect and pure Taylor – earnest, romantic and a bit cheesy.
But she’s more of a narratively thematic recording artist than a musical one. I was disappointed in her last two albums and she needs a new producer who will challenge her.
Young Gen Xer here, my personal TS playlist is 68 songs strong, some hits, some deep cuts. Cruel Summer is one of the greatest songs of all time. I didn’t expect to love her music so much but something during COVID pulled me in. Now I find a lot of artists I grew up listening to, U2 for one, so boring. If I never hear Mysterious Ways again, I’m good. I will say about TTPD, it’s a grower, not a shower. There are some solid singles though-I hate the title but love, But Daddy I Love Him.
I have two school of thoughts about this. I think Taylor used to be quite a good songwriter. I feel that writing about each broken relationship could paint oneself into a corner, and I’m bored with it, as I am bored with her manipulative relationship media. I read the other day that Taylor is worried that Kelce won’t be able to deal with her fame. If that is the prelude to “the breakup” I am over it. Don’t won’t to hear it. On the other hand, I don’t think it is attractive to diss other artists. And she is out there creating art, whereas others are merely critiquing people who create. I could be wrong about this, but I don’t remember Taylor dissing another artist’s work, which is a good policy to have, and it’s a good look. (Or maybe that is Gaga). Not talking about her disputes with people, just dissing anyone’s art.
I tend to tie music with memory — it effects some kind of nostalgic emotion. I get that feeling when I listen to a song by U2 like “One.” Something happens where it transports you to an old memory or time period.
I can’t tell if that ever happens (for me) with Taylor Swift’s music, even if she is technically proficient or more talented than some of her peers. I think I might wind up feeling emotions for her personal experience (i.e is that how she felt about Joe Alwyn? hmmm interesting), but her music doesn’t move me to reflect on my own personal feelings or memories or a specific time period. I tend to tie each individual song of hers to a boyfriend or person, but I’m not sure if that’s because her marketing is strong and something I’d be willing to study haha. I probably haven’t thought too much about how other artists market their songs (unless it’s someone like Justin Timberlake who has tied some of his songs to Britney Spears).
It didn’t really happen for me until she sang “All Too Well” on SNL a few years back. The 10 minute version. I knew her biggest hits but had never heard the song. It resonated with me a ton, brought me back to how I felt when a guy did that sort of thing to me when I was in college.
Taylor’s music does bore me, generally speaking and there were some previous sentiments that her music was not up to par like when it was said her music was for 6 year olds. But she persevered and started focusing on the persona, showing incremental growth as her mostly female audience grows with her, mindful of always looking good in public pap photos and being all about the business with the no-shame elaborate grammy presentation to judges and the subsequent wins to give her credibility as an acclaimed artist designed to leave her fans feeling good about sticking with her and others giving her a chance. The business model, all about the economics as Tennant puts it, expanded with the clever concept and impressive work ethic of the eras tour and the (wasteful) vinyl strategy. She is an excellent business woman with light, unchallenging music.
I can’t listen to her, it all sounds the same and it’s boring. I looked up the lyrics to songs people love and they’re clever. But I’m not moved by them. She seems like the hungriest thirstiest person ever. She’ll be a trilionaire at the rate she’s going and she craves all the trophies.
Her legacy is empty and everyone knows it. I suspect so does she
I don’t think everyone knows it or believes it. She has a huge fan base, and mothers (and some fathers) introduce her to their kids just like Boomers introduced their kids to music from the 70s. So I think she is likely to have some legacy. Time will tell.
If she does think it, she will be pressuring herself to keep making music so something cements her legacy. She is a hard worker and she’s competitive. Even those who don’t like her or her music don’t fault her work ethic.
I have about a dozen songs by Taylor on my playlist. They’re fun to listen to when I’m taking a walk and they do evoke feelings from when I was a teen and my early twenties.
Whenever I’ve gone to karaoke with a diverse group of people (different genders, age, nationalities) there are songs that the whole room will sing along to with gusto – the most popular songs are usually from Queen, Michael Jackson, ABBA, Elton John, Jon Bovi, whitney Houston. I’ve not actually seen any of Taylor’s songs get this kind of reception, maybe because it’s too contemporary. It will be interesting to see how people outside of her fan base remember her music 20 years from now.
People seem to quote phrases or one line from her songs and that’s it (i.e “shake it off”, “Look what you made me do,” “she wears short-shorts, I wear t-shirts”, “we’ll never go out of style”.) I guess i know more lyrics than I thought. The actual music never seems to get hummed to.
It’s interesting, for instance, when you see British football plans suddenly breaking out into “Sweet Caroline” which I think of as a quintessentially American song (maybe because of the reference to Caroline Kennedy).
The new album has come under criticism, but oddly this is the album where I like the melodies a lot more than her previous work. Go figure.
I was in Jr high school when the Pet Shop Boys were popular. They were though more popular in the UK and Europe compared to the US. And then later on the LGBTQ community really enjoyed their music. But I’m sorry, Taylor is waay more popular than they were even during their peak. She’s a worldwide phenomenon and they were mostly popular with Euro dance clubs. But I agree, it’s always these insecure men who downplays women’s success. And how these women have become more successful than them.
TBh. Some of the best Taylor songs are the ones not released as singles. Her albums imo will prob last the test of time. And this is coming from just a so-so Taylor fan.
Okay, now hear me out cuz I only just pieced this together. The Pet Shop Boys did the second most well known cover of Elvis’s Always on My Mind (after Willie Nelson), and who did Elvis’s daughter marry? That’s right. Michael Jackson. Thank you. Yes, I’ll be here with obscure PSB trivia all week.
Sheryl Crow had this to say in March in an interview:
The “Soak Up the Sun” songwriter then explained how she believes major pop stars have, in some ways, been able to shake up the gender politics of the industry.
“What’s interesting is that when you get women who are bigger than the actual system in general—like a Madonna or a Beyoncé or a Taylor—it sort of is a giant ‘eff you’ to the entire history of men manipulating women,” Crow said.
The one central thing about Taylor Swift-she is the singer most parents of teenage girls would prefer their girls listen to-She is highly successful and have a strong business sense-she has never married and have no children-she focusing on her career with a little romance thrown in once and while-Parents are not worried about their girls going to her concerts-no bumping and grinding on people on stage-I have not heard a whole lot of cursing and swearing either-her and Travis Kelcie match because of their backgrounds-not a lot of baggage to drag in the relationship-I hope she gets to settle down and have her own family someday which I think my happen before she turns 40.
These are many of the things I respect about Tay. As a businesswoman, she’s a great role model. As a musician, I mean her music is harmless fun. I certainly don’t see any problem with listening to it, even if it’s not my jam.
Haters gonna hate, and I like Beyonce and Taylor as much as anyone who’s not a card-carrying Beyhive member or a Swiftie, but the music industry has changed. A lot of musicians often just don’t know music theory these days (and neither do their producers, which is the bigger issue). I would agree that songwriters of the 1970’s and 1980’s understood how to write iconic songs better. I mean, Fleetwood Mac? PRINCE? Michael Jackson depended on the songwriting skills of Quincy Jones who grew up hanging out with Ray Charles and studied music at Berklee!! There’s also a lot more pressure on artists today to produce constantly to keep fans engaged and keep money pouring in. It’s not an apples to apples comparison.
Who?
This guy has clearly never heard ‘You Belong with Me’.
I’d listen to You belong to me any day over Billie Jean, which is about a woman trying to trap a man with false paternity claims. I judge Neil most of all for reminding us that gawd awful song exists.
Lol 😆 Who even is this guy!?
He’s right
This is hilarious, especially considering that, Stateside, The Pet Shop Boys are basically a one-hit wonder. (Full disclosure: I love their rendition of “You Were Always on my Mind”, but it doesn’t get a lot of airplay.)
Also: I never liked “Billie Jean”. Agree with others that it’s an awful song.
Go West is a brilliant song, it was everywhere when I was a child.
But the current discussion where people are gleefully piling on Taylor Swift is tedious. I’ve called it tall poppy syndrome on another post and I am doubling down in that while adding a heavy dose of “let people like what they like”.
Swift is everywhere right now and that I think has prompted this backlash. Phil Collins made a similar point in his autobiography a few years ago, citing the time he flew on the Concord to play two concerts on different continents in short succession, he (and Genesis) were incredibly popular but that it then soured and the mood turned despite the enormous success. (Also, reading recommendation for Collins’ autobiography: highly entertaining and very honest.)
Neil, it’s a girl thing. You wouldn’t understand.
Think again😒I’ve never heard three of the five song you mentioned….so, yeah, not everyone knows her mediocre songs.
Well, Margaret Thatcher was about anti-collectivism (“there is no such thing as society”) and that Ayn Randian one-dimensional idea of the individual as a purely self-interested entity. She wasn’t about economics per se but a kind of economic rationalism. There are all kinds of economists and some of them are actually very pro-social-democratic-capitalism (with a degree of welfare state, basic minimum safeguards, etc.) (see Michael Hudson, Steve Keen, Naked Capitalism blog, etc.) so let’s not insult all economists, if that’s what he’s trying to do here.