You’ve surely heard by now that former Growing Pains child star Kirk Cameron, 41, said a bunch of antiquated crap about homosexuality during an appearance on the Piers Morgan show. Cameron called being gay “unnatural,” “detrimental,” and “destructive,” as if gay people solely existed to destroy society. People were quick to point out how wrong he was, including his former “Growing Pains” costars, Tracey Gold and Alan Thicke. My favorite response comes from Thicke, who tweeted I’m getting him some new books. The Old Testament simply can’t be expected to explain everything.” He later added “I love Kirk but I may have to spank him…’tho not in a gay way!” That’s hysterical!
Now Kirk is defending himself, and he’s not backtracking or apologizing. He sent an indignant e-mail to ABC news saying that it’s all our fault for paying attention to him and calling him out on it, basically. He also tried to pull the “I have gay friends” card. Of course he did. My favorite part of this story is GLAAD’s response, which is at the end and is totally measured and convincing. I imagine someone sighing and rolling their eyes as they wrote it.
Kirk Cameron is fighting back against the “hate speech” he feels he’s endured since calling homosexuality “unnatural,” “detrimental,” and “ultimately destructive to so many of the foundations of civilization” during a Friday appearance on “Piers Morgan Tonight” to promote his new film, “Monumental.”
In an email statement released exclusively to ABCNews.com today, Cameron said that when Morgan asked him to share his views on homosexuality, “I spoke as honestly as I could, but some people believe my responses were not loving toward those in the gay community. That is not true. I can assuredly say that it’s my life’s mission to love all people.”
“I should be able to express moral views on social issues,” he said, “especially those that have been the underpinning of Western civilization for 2,000 years — without being slandered, accused of hate speech, and told from those who preach ‘tolerance’ that I need to either bend my beliefs to their moral standards or be silent when I’m in the public square.”
He concluded, “I believe we need to learn how to debate these things with greater love and respect,” and added, “I’ve been encouraged by the support of many friends (including gay friends, incidentally).”Cameron’s “Growing Pains” co-stars Tracey Gold and Alan Thicke have spoken out against his comments, along with many other celebrities. Over the weekend, GLAAD launched a petition called Tell Kirk Cameron It’s Time to Finally Grow Up. It had more than 5,500 signatures this afternoon.
GLAAD spokesman Herndon Graddick released an email statement to ABCNews.com in response to Cameron’s latest comments: “Saying that gay people are ‘detrimental to civilization’ might be ‘loving’ in Kirk Cameron’s mind, but it’s gay youth and victims of bullying who truly suffer from adults like Cameron who espouse these ideas.”
“Obviously, Cameron has the right to recite his anti-gay talking points,” Graddick added, “just like fair-minded Americans have the right to tell him that his views are harmful and have no place in modern America.”
How did what he said have anything to do with love and respect? It’s one thing to say something like “I don’t personally believe in homosexuality, but I love and respect everyone.” People wouldn’t really argue with that. It’s quite another to call homosexuality “unnatural, detrimental, and ultimately destructive to so many of the foundations of civilization,” as if gay people are scheming villains instead of just normal people living their lives like everyone else. I read the rest of his comments to Morgan, which are available on the transcript, and at no point does he speak respectfully about gay people, so why should he expect that response?
A lot of you have made the comment that Kirk is probably a closet case, which is bolstered by this blind item claiming he trolls for men in parks. I don’t put a lot of faith in blind items but I could believe it. Let’s revisit one comment he made to Piers about what he would tell his child if he came to him and said he was gay. “There’s all sorts of issues that we need to wrestle through in our life. Just because you feel one way doesn’t mean we should act on everything that we feel.” I’m just going to leave it at that.
Kirk is promoting his documentary Monumental, in which he tries to claim that the foundation of America starting when the pilgrims came over is religion and that’s why we need religion in schools and government. His answer to America’s problems is to set us back 400 years when women couldn’t own property and people would have thought indoor plumbing was the devil’s work. The trailer is amusing, because Kirk just looks confused the whole time.
These are actual photos from the Facebook page for Monumental
This is what puzzles me about this issue, and the Patricia Heaton thing. Yes, you absolutely ARE allowed to publicly espouse hateful and harmful views. And everyone else is allowed to call you on it. Freedom of speech is not just something that applies to Kirk Cameron and his ilk.
yeah, it always seems to go one way, doesn’t it? he can slander an entire group of people, but heaven forbid someone talked trash about him (even if in response to his trash-talking). same with heaton. THEIR rights need to be “protected” constantly, but the same doesn’t apply to the rights of others.
Yup. Bitch slandered homosexuality first.
Co-sign. Between this and the comments above there’s little more to be said.
I thought the poster was a parody too!!
So true. If people do not approve of/understand homosexuality, that’s their prerogative, but what Kirk said was really venomous. If he’s telling the truth about having “gay friends”, then they’re probably self-loathing gays whom he’d like to “rehabilitate”.
If his gay friends do exist and they have no problems with his comments, they have serious issues.
That, or they don’t actually like him, but keep him around for the entertainment. Like after they talk to him, they call up all their actual friends, “And then the bitch said my gayness will destroy the world! I must be FIERCE!”
I don’t agree with anything Kirk says that’s derogratory about gay people or his view on religion. Americans created this concept of Free Speech and that anyone has the right to say what they want at all times. To not have free speech is un-American. This is an example of free speech in action.
Here’s the deal. I do not agree with what he has said at all. However what happened to the days of when someone said something offensive and it was ignored? I think it is wrong to give people who say things that we find hateful any attention at all. Becoming offended and constantly talking about it is only going to give him an even larger platform to spew his hateful words. If what he said offends you then ignore it and quietly boycott anything associated with him. Bringing attention to him will only attract the wrong people to his cause.
I kind of agree with you.
I disagree with him, and I had fun piling on (so I’m not above it at all) as well as defending my religion.
But I did get the uncomfortable feeling that this wasn’s so much about defending gay people as proclaiming, VERY VERY LOUDLY, to each other that we hold certain views and are better than KC.
I guess in a perfect world I guess I would agree with you.
The problem with ‘just’ ignoring these kind of people is that they interpret that as everyone agreeing with them. And they continue to do it. And encourage other people to repeat it. Because no one says anything-they must be right!
But the problem is by giving him attention you begin to attract all kinds of bad and crazy people to his cause. Which in turn take his message and turn it into dangerous and hateful actions. I mean Kirk Cameron has been any sort of influential star since Growing Pains but still the more people who hear his message the more crazies it attracts and crazies go out and do something about it. Either way its a lose-lose situation in my book.
Leeloo, I think it’s a bit too early in the development of an open society (we’re getting there, though!) to simply ignore this type of behavior. I know it sounds awful, but this needs to be shamed by numerous people first so that we can actually create a culture shift. Once accepting homosexuality has become the cultural norm (ie something protected), we can then start being a little bit more passive and ignoring bigots. But for the time being, someone needs to stick up for the ‘little guy’ being picked on by a celebrity with a lot of followers. Does that make sense?
Hey LeeLo-I posted downthread and I agree with you. There are certain people who make me want to tear my hair out-Rush Limbaugh, Newt Gingrich, Ann Coulter, Sarah Palin etc. Whenever they start spewing their ignorant hate, I just ignore. I support free speech (no matter how idiotic) and I find that listening to these fools and acknowleging their idiocy just empowers their words and gets the rise out of me that these guys are looking for. I mean, a lot of the time these people just say stuff to incite and to get press anyway (although I don’t think this is the case with KC) so why give them what they’re looking for? If you can’t stand what people are saying, I think ignoring is better than trying to silence them (which is unconstitutional). Kirk Cameron’s comments just made him look crazy and out of touch so I feel like he kind of shot himself in the foot anyway.
@leeloo
Maybe for some people on tv, but in day to day life they get worse.
I tend to ignore the real vitrolic stuff, but the thing is the crazies are going to come out of the woodwork either way. Calling him out once to tell him he’s wrong is important, but after that? Meh. This is a guy that thinks the banana is proof of creationism after all.
@Leeloo
In my case I have a lot to say about it because I am a follower of Jesus–that really, loving, kind-hearted, caring for the poor, non-judgmental guy that he claims to love but knows NOTHING about, it seems.
When he spouts off using the label “Christian” then I have a problem with it because other people judge ME and more importantly judge Jesus by him.
Thanks to mean-spirited doodie heads who choose to ignore everything Jesus said in the gospel about caring for the poor, not judging your neighbor, pacifism, et al and embrace the rich, war-mongering, and judgmental most of the world views Jesus and Christianity from their actions.
I HAVE to say something and what I’m saying is that he is a grad A doodie head.
Doodie head gives me the giggles.
I’m not a Christian, but I’m a big admirer of Jesus for exactly the reasons you mention. And it makes upsets me too when people use “Christianity” as an excuse for their own bigotry. I completely get your reasons for feeling you need to speak up.
Well said. I realize for people like yourself who are actually Christians and represent and follow Christ as you should, it’s hard because people lump you in with the “so called” Christians who use their belief as a form of hate, and control. But I realize every one is not like that, so I don’t lump you in that category with them. I myself is not a believer but I respect your beliefs and I’m sure you respect mines as well 🙂
Oh I know exactly what you mean. I was raised ELCA Lutheran which has always been rather accepting and non-judgmental. I was raised to understand the importance of loving my neighbor no matter their choices. Whatever happens to them is between God and themselves.
Now I identify as a Humanist/Buddhist (if that makes sense). It is unfortunate that many Christians like yourself have to be lumped in with the small majority that are using their religion as an excuse for racism and bigotry. The majority never gets any press because their actions of loving and accepting everyone speaks louder than their words.
May I point out you just judged him too. By the way, I am not defending Kirk (I too am a Christian) but he was not on a street corner. He was invited on this show and asked a question. Kirk was merely replying and may I add that he never said gay people should be put to death or anything of that matter. Just as anyone is protected under the Constitution and God Given Free Will to live a homosexual lifestyle, Kirk has the right to believe what he wants to believe. I am sick and tired of people saying that anyone that believes homosexuality is wrong based on their religious views is wrong. I’m not saying there are not extremes like that church that protests at soldier’s funerals. But let him speak without adding fuel to the fire yourself…
Rin, you are AWESOME.
@Addion,
in fact he IS on street corners. He produced a movie and is placing it in theaters and going on television shows.
You say you’re a Christian…where did Jesus say that we’re allowed to point out our brother’s sin? Where? Not Paul, not the Hebrew Bible…where did JESUS, that Messiah guy, say we could do what he was doing?
I’ll tell you where. No where.
Christians are to be known by our love. We are defined by our good works. It is only when we get into Paul (and I’m almost certain that he was the one Jesus referred to as coming in his own name, but…) we get that Christians don’t have to do good works only make a profession of faith. However, the Gospel of Matthew, Chapters 25-26 are all about following the word of Jesus by caring for the poor, the grieving, the orphans, sinners, those in prison, etc. When we do this we are his friends and followers. In our service we evangelize, not in our words.
Kirk Cameron is acting falsely, and if you want to talk the slandering of someone’s good name…him and people like him slander the word of Jesus. To someone like me, someone who had some dark moments in life only to be brought out by the saving grace of his teachings on forgiveness, kindness, and empathy…I become very, very angry when his name is slandered.
So, yes, doodie head!
ITA. I was just thinking that until someone latched onto his comments (ignorant as they are), I don’t think most people would even care what he has to say.
This guy really needs a nap and a juicebox doesn’t he?
He might also be interested to note that the number ONE country on the Human Development Index is Norway – the same Norway that was the first country in the world to introduced laws against discrimination on the grounds of sexuality and one of the first to have full marriage equality.
So much for “destructive to so many of the foundations of civilisation…”
a nap and a juice box – i can only hope that this is an Arrested Development reference… 🙂
I’m just going to go back to not giving a s–t about Kirk Cameron, just like yesterday and five years ago. Moron
I will join you in this plan. 🙂
Count me in too.
Had he just said “I don’t like homosexuality,” I really don’t think he would have gotten as lambasted. The way he went about it was not respectful or loving at all. It was ugly. And if he does indeed have gay friends that are supporting him after all of this, then he’s got some fantastic friends, and maybe he should rethink his stance. My (gay) friends LOVE me, but if I said something like this, and I actually meant it, I’m sure they’d drop me like a bad habit.
I don’t think so… even if he just said his religious views don’t allow him to agree with homosexuality, we’d be in the same spot. Gay rights people would be leaping on him and yelling about how his religion is bad and that’s not fair and he should allow everyone to live their life blah blah blah.
I only have a few gay friends, but they all know what my views are on gay marriage and homosexuality in society, and we just agree to disagree. If they insisted on pushing their agenda on me, I’d dump THEM.
That’s a very complicated friendship. I don’t think I could stand to be around people that didn’t believe I should be able to love whomever I wanted. They are far better people than me, I guess.
to each his own and all, but how is being gay in and of itself an agenda? I guess you mean the agenda that gays should be treated equally? I’m really not trying to pick on your beliefs, I just think the word ‘agenda’ is thrown around a lot as a scare tactic – like we’re trying to make the whole world gay. the whole idea of a gay agenda is ludicrous to me.
@Jeneral,
I don’t mind if he says: my personal interpretation of the scripture is thus and such…or…some Christians like myself believe a, b, and c.
I am a Christian and I am not in agreement. In fact, I am a dead language loving, read it in the original language type of Jesus freak and I totally 100% don’t agree with him. When he states that his views are based upon his Christian faith then he is making a statement for all Christians, and I’m sorry he is not my spokesperson and now I’m left to repair the reputation of Jesus as a compassionate, loving, doer of kind deeds.
When Christians refuse to speak out or take a stand then we might as well be there with a hammer and nail to crucify Christ because we’re doing nothing to glorify him.
I will not, repeat not, allow him to slander Christ.
@Rin
your response just warmed my heart. <3
@Rin: well said.
Thanks for reminding us this is about a bunch of bigoted people who spread their message of intolerance and use Christianity as an excuse.
Their real motive is that they want to feel better about themselves and therefore need a god to tell them they are better than certain groups of other people.
I agree.
How could anyone be friends with someone who says such things about you?
Don’t believe the gay friends thing for a moment, unless by friends he means ‘people I greet and talk a minute about the weather with’.
Kirk is free to do and say what he pleases, just like me. But the difference is I’m not going to demonize him because I disagree with him. I don’t give a shit if he spends 24 hours on his knees self-flagellating for his god, just don’t tell me what I want to do with my life is harming society. My partner and I just want to live our lives. Leave me alone, you f%&king busybody.
He’s a victim of his own stupidity.
There are definitely ways to express yourself and your beliefs that aren’t demeaning to others. If he just said that line which a lot of religious people spew out that he hates ‘the sin not the sinner’ and left it at that people would think he was a hypocrite but move on.
When you insult and disrespect people for living their lives on a public forum you are pretty much inviting scrutiny into your own life.
As for the Blinds I always doubt them but in this case I’d say a boy raised by secular Atheists within the Hollywood system doesn’t all of the sudden become a raging homophobe and crazed Christian for no reason.
Who else remembers the controversy about the Playboy bunny who Cameron insisted must be fired because she was a sinner? And how he refused to do a kiss with anyone other than his wife on TV? There is something behind his wingnuttiness and like Larry Craig and others I do think one day the truth will come out about him.
I actually feel sad for him.
If he and others like him would hate the sin of greed–which is what the Bible says is the root of all evil, not man on man sex– as loudly as they hate the sin of homosexuality…I’d give em a pass.
This is selective “hating the sin”.
Rin, what’s your denomination…if I may ask. Or in otherwords, what metaphorical “box” can I put you in?
Um, I was born into a Catholic family, but I’m not sure what I’d consider myself now…I like the particular Catholic church in my parish now because the priest fosters that spirit of Christ’s love. We have gay and lesbian families there, we have supported a Muslim refugee family, we are very social-service oriented, but…
unfortunately, parishes like mine are not the majority so I won’t say I’m “Catholic” I’ll just say I follow Jesus and attend Mass.
i do not understand for the life of me how he reconciles “loving all people” with calling gay people “unnatural and detrimental to society”. wtf. then again, i shouldn’t expect logic from this crazy who thinks that bananas are somehow evidence against evolution (while totally ignoring the fact that bananas as we know them are genetically engineered). enjoy this, in case you haven’t see it. it’s amazing.
http://youtu.be/2z-OLG0KyR4
I never thought KFC would turn out like this, he was so likeable in growing pains – good on Alan Thicke 🙂
I tend to agree with LeeLoo’s comments. I followed this story pretty closely and anybody that follows the C/B comments section knows that I am pretty consistent about my stance on free speech. I mean, what the guy said was completely moronic (in my opinion) but he’s Kirk Cameron-he’s a former child actor that really doesn’t have a ton of influence or pull in this world. He’s not a political figure or in any position of real power and really, his words only resonate with people who already agree with his religious, political, and social stance. He’s not going to change any liberal’s mind-he’s only representing/speaking to a relatively small faction of the world. I think the people that should be upset are the right wing Christian born-agains who DON’T think that homosexuals are detrimental to society-because essentially he’s representing this group and in a very very negative way. *shrugs* Just my two cents: overall, this guy is pretty irrelevant.
Asli! My girl! How’s Denmark? 🙂
I mean there are things that I’m offended by constantly-as a woman, as a person who is not religious etc etc.
The recent Rush Limbaugh controversy was completely offensive to me as someone who IS a woman who uses birth control. But instead of getting all riled up and demanding that Rush issue an apology to all women, I chose to ignore the fat bastard. I’m glad people were outraged by what he said but I also don’t think he should be silenced/fired. I mean deep down I do (lol! have to be honest) but I will always always ALWAYS defend free speech, no matter how ignorant. People need to decide for themselves as individuals whether they’re going to listen to and support these people or just ignore and move on. Limbaugh and Cameron don’t have the ability to influence/change my belief system because I don’t give them that ability. *shrugs*
Same here Asli-no winter to speak of in Boston. All my hippy friends are screaming about global warming but I have to admit-I love this! 🙂
The “liberal” dirty word. Living in a liberal hotbed, this is something my friends and I discuss often, especially after Gingrich keeps referring to Romney as a “Massachusetts liberal”. As a Massachusetts liberal, I’m really confused as to why that is an insult. 😉 Then again, I know a lot of people hate on us. *shrugs* Besides, Romney is a moderate at MOST, definitely not a liberal in any true sense of the word nor is he a MA native, for the record.
If you dish it out Kirk you gotta learn how to take it! His believes and views are so dated and close minded, that totally rubbed me the wrong way.
Go to IMDb and give Monumental a 1/10
Nothing about what he said could be considered “loving”. Please!
I’m not sure what he expected, going on national TV and discussing such issues in the manner he did. Of course there is going to be a response, and when you’re that demeaning to so many people, you’re going to get called on it. That’s the thing with having the right to express your opinion, you’re not the only one who can do it.
Um, Kirk? Maybe you missed this part of history class but America was actually founded by people seeking freedom from religous persecussion. How about some research, hmm?
True. And many of the famous founders freemasons, so I wondered why he mentioned that myself. It’s like he doesn’t know.
@Assistantrachel,
I don’t mean to rain on your parade, but…
1) Jamestown was the first English settlement. They came believing they would find gold. Jamestown predates the whole Plymouth rock thing by decades.
2) The pilgrims were very religious and were not fleeing religion, but the authority of a different religion. What did the Puritans do when they got here? Set up a religious government so strict that the word “Puritanical” has come to mean religiously strict domination.
3) Mary-land. Nuff said.
4) “Endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights…”
5) In God we Trust
People say that this was an experiment in religious freedom, but it was not. Ask the Native Americans who helped out the earliest settlers and then were forced to conform to their religion how free they were to practice tribal religions.
As for the Freemasons, which all the Founding Fathers were, well…look it up…they are religious, it’s just their own funky thing.
Yes, let’s get history right. America was founded to expand the wealth of the British empire. The colonists revolted over paying too much taxes. The nation was then established wherein slaves (again, money making) were purposefully left out of that whole free thing. We were founded upon the bedrock of greed, not freedom of religion.
And, btw, it was written that religion cannot impede upon government and government cannot impede upon the free exercise of religion. In other words, that pendulum swings both ways.
**None of this is a support of doodie heads religions shenanigans, just wanting to impart some history.
He’s just trying to get free advertising for his film. Making remarks like those are the perfect way to draw attention to himself and his film. He knew perfectly well what would happen when he said those things, and I think he did it on purpose to draw the attention he wanted.
Often a lot of attention does not translate in success though. Jen An is one of the celebrities who gets the most attention, but her movie flopped pretty badly.
If Kirk believes what he has expressed, more power to him, (I dont) however everyone has the power of speech.
What I find more interesting is that people think he should apologise for what he said. Why should he? That is what he believes. He his just as entitled to state his opinion as I am to disagree with him.
Any apology he made he would not mean, so what is the point.
Freedom of speech means that some people are going to have views that others dont not agree with, even if they demonise a section of the community.
Freedom has a high price that I am willing pay.
I completely 100% agree with you. Besides, how does one apologize for being an idiot? 😉 But seriously, he doesn’t owe anyone an apology. People shouldn’t have to apologize for their belief system if those beliefs contradict or offend the beliefs of others. A hardcore Christian would have diametrically opposing beliefs to an atheist such as myself. We might be offended by what the other has to say but fundamentally, we will never agree-so why waste time being offended? Again, people being able to express their opinions freely is a very important freedom we have in the US. We should foster discussion, not dissuade it. Living in a social media society, yeah Kirk Cameron should have been smarter and more prepared for backlash but maybe he just didn’t care-I mean, he had a film to promote.
another big dumbo who goes on to piss off people with his group hate and then whines about how mean they are to him.
Typical.
Calling an enormous group of people unnatural detrimental, and ultimately destructive, but seeing himself as the victim when people respond.
And speaking of Western Civilization, a whole lot of it we owe to the ancient Greeks. Maybe he can look up their views on same gender relationships and find out that they were far less judgmental about it than he. Same goes for several other ancient civilizations by the way.
Ugh I know right? Cry me a river Kirk, you poor, persecuted white Christian male!
You nailed it: the last group that will suffer from discrimination, but the first to complain when it looks like they have to share their number 1 position.
🙁 I can’t stop myself when it comes to history…
The ancient Greeks were not pro-same sex relationships. Ask any woman who would have wanted to have sex with another woman in ancient Greece. SOME Greek civilizations like the Spartans may have had some male-male relations based upon some pottery depictions we have, but a lot of the whole Greeks were so liberal on same sex stuff is on Foucault who went nuts with what few remnants we have of those civilizations, reading in what he felt necessary.
It really wasn’t until the Romans who wrote a lot a lot a lot of stuff down about culture that we learned about how male-male relations were thought of (if you were on top = good on bottom = womanly/bad), and don’t even with the females…women like Sappho were literally considered monsters by the men of their society.
The entire culture of the ancient world was so “masculine” and misogynistic that I honestly don’t think it was all that frickin’ great. Men who received were given female characteristics and shunned as men. You had to be a full on penetrator of both male AND female to be accepted as a MAN.
The Greeks were even worse than the Romans so don’t get me started on those misogynistic crapheads. It’s a wonder women even survived in ancient times without jumping off cliffs in fits of unhappiness.
Ahem.
LOL u said “crapheads” !
@Rin You’re amazing. As someone who studies Archeology of the Mediterranean I can CONFIRM tgat you are correct. Athenians were not the “boy lovers” everyone thought they were. It was disparaging comments made by Romans that cause it. There is a lot of evidence that man on man sex was commonplace in Sparta. Spartans had a very bisexual society and because of the issues with population, it was a woman’s duty to bear sons…even if she was unmarried or the children were not her husband’s…so it’s all what you make of it.
With all due respect, it was more than just pottery. A lot of Greek writings have been preserved on the topic. The Romans copied a lot from them at first when it came to literature, until it evolved into their own style. The Greeks were definitely not dependent on Romans to write things down (though I’m sure they messed around with it, good little trolls that they were ;)). Herodotus, ‘father of history’, was Greek and also wrote on the topic for instance.
Homosexual relationships existed in myths about heroes and gods (very unlike Christian stories, except perhaps to utterly condemn them). Some city-states had a military system where male lovers fought together. One of those, that of Thebes, was considered as having amazingly brave fighters. Plato also wrote about this.
Alexander the Great also made no secret of his exceptional love for a man (the same age as him) and while some might not consider him entirely Greek, he definitely had great influence on Western civilization.
My comment was not to show that it was all that awesome in Ancient times, but that what he considers as natural according to western civilization. But what he sees as ‘natural’ is actually routed in his interpretation of Christianity and was not what was seen as natural according to the cradles of western civilization.
Agree with you totally about women’s rights in Athens especially. It was better to be born as a woman in Sparta for instance than there (if you were not exposed at birth that was).
There have also been many ancient societies were women had a lot more power and agency than in Greece, but those are less clearly cradles of Western civilization, though still influential.
@Flan,
where does Herodotus describe male on male “relationships” of the type you are describing? I am not being a smartass, I am being a history buff and have a purpose to the question.
What is described by these scholars is pederasty and I don’t think any modern homosexual male wishes to say that this is male on male “love”. Maybe certain Catholic priests… (I’m being bad)
Male on male “love” to the ancients is as I’ve said with the man who penetrates being of a higher stature than a man who would allow himself to be penetrated. This, my friend, is a form of misogyny. There is no getting around this fact.
As for Alexander, he wrote nothing. You’re speaking of what was said by other historians and all indications of Alexander’s male relationships do not point to a sexual relationship with Hephaestion (an equal) but the eunuch, Bagoas. Why? Because a conquering general like Alexander would have had his manliness called into question (did he receive) with Hephaestion. We can’t look at their culture through a modern lens. Bagoas was indicated in his will– a real feat for the age. This shows more of a male on male love than any other relationship he had.
I’m not saying there weren’t male-male relations, I’m saying that it wasn’t applauded if any sort of malekenos was indicated. The top was manly, the bottom was ridiculed. Men still had to marry and have kids. This was certainly not a relationship of equals as it is today. How can it be when so many labels and connotations were attached to “top” and “bottom”, masculine and feminine? How can it be when the bottom’s were not well-respected?
A man who penetrated both male and female was A-okay because he was a very, very masculine in that respect. This would be Alexander. Not only did he most likely bang Bagoas and treat him to some wild nights, but Alexander had many brides, one sexy affair with an Amazon…**eyeroll**
I appreciate that scholars want to show that gay men and lesbian women have always been present in society because they have, but as a female, I hate the fact that the Greeks, who were incredibly intolerant and misogynistic are hailed as progressives or something.
Misogyny was loud and present at ancient times and is the root of homophobia today.
Chill out people. When did we all get so oversensitive? So Kirk doesnt think homosexuality is natural – and he thinks its destructive to the family – duh. You cant mate two male dogs and get offspring. That’s not natural. That’s what he’s saying – that its not the natural order of things. The family structure is crumbling – look around. Not blaming homosexuals, just moral degradation of society. These things are a fact. I have two gay sisters – and a few gay friends – I love them and dont feel the need to change them or judge them – but I dont have to jump on the LBGT bandwagon either. I do believe in rights for domestic partnerships – marriage – whatever.
There is no “LBGT Bandwagon”. It’s simply people supporting other people and letting people live their lives how they chose to. For many of us see people as HUMAN BEINGS-all the same, they don’t differentiate based on sexual preference. See the difference?
We all have things that ignite our passion to support a cause. I dont have to “support” the LGBT comminity – there’s plenty of people around to fill those shoes.
I dont want to see anyone abused or mistreated for any reason. Kirk has a right to think and feel the way he is convicted to. We start name-calling because he doesnt believe like you do and you are now the proverbial pot calling the kettle black. live and let live. goes both ways kitten.
But my point is that it’s not about “supporting” a “community”. It’s just about letting other people live their lives just like they let us live ours. It’s a very simple concept when you strip away the political/religious/social aspects that are forced into it by people with political/religious/personal agendas. In my eyes, even using a buzzword like “community” is divisive and detracts from the fundamental idea that we are ALL human. Gay rights are HUMAN rights. I defend his right to say what he wants to just the way I will say what I want to. And of course, I wholly disagree with his stance.
There is totally a LGBT bandwagon.
Saying there is “totally an LBGT Bandwagon” is like saying there is totally a “black/asian/hispanic/jewish insert-ethnicity-here bandwagon”. WTF does that even mean? We’re all just people-we should be supporting each other as a species.
Girl, there is totally a bandwagon. I got on it a few months back. My ears are starting to ache from all the trumpets. I mean…really, there’s only so many brass instruments the old eardrum can take.
I absolutely agree, it’s his opinion and you don’t have to like it. I don’t think it is natural either but hey live your life how the heck you want. All this hate towards him is just the same as his hate towards gays. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Wrong.
He is hating on an entire group of people because they are different from him (supposedly..}. We are hating on him specifically for being a bigot.
But I guess you could argue that he can’t HELP being a bigot! Maybe he was born that way…
Do you mean “natural” or “abnormal”? Because it is naturally occurring, although not prevalent (normal). It is irksome when people say homosexuality is not natural. If you find it in nature it is natural. When something is not a statistical majority it is abnormal. High IQs, for example, are an abnormality.
Just because something is abnormal, however, does not mean it is wrong, bad, or detrimental. Some abnormalities we appreciate, extreme beauty or superb athleticism, for example.
The “naturalness” of homosexuality isn’t a matter of opinion. It’s definitely natural – it has been documented in over 450 species. So I’m sorry, but you’re just plain incorrect, and pointing that out is not attacking your opinion so much as your inaccurate understanding of the science on the issue. Scientific facts are scientific facts.
“So Kirk doesnt think homosexuality is natural. You cant mate two male dogs and get offspring. That’s not natural.”
This works only if you believe that sexuality exists solely to further procreation.
Um, I get what you’re trying to say, but if you believe in evolution at all then you have to believe that sexuality does exist only for procreation. That is is “fun” is only for the evolutionary purpose of enticing people to do it.
Love…intimacy…these are the higher, human endeavors that go beyond the intentions of Nature and evolution and lift us to the spiritual plane–if you believe in that.
So what, really, so what if sexuality IS for the purpose of procreation only? It doesn’t meant that it cannot be enjoyed even though that is not your intent in engaging in it. Mouths are there to ingest food, not kissing, but–oh, isn’t kissing sweet! 🙂
exactly. Plus, if you actually look to nature, there are plenty of animals that pair with same-gendered mates. Look at all the ‘gay penguins’ that have been all over the news in the last few years. And researchers studying the albatross have found that a significant proportion of the females return each year to the same place to see each other, perform mating behaviours together, and one will get pregnant (from a random male obviously) and they will raise the egg together.
That’s not an attempt to attribute human qualities like gay and straight to animals, but the behaviours are absolutely not unnatural in the true sense. non-procreative doesn’t always equal unnatural.
and @Rin – evolutionarily speaking, things like a stable environment and affection are very important for survival and proper development for many species. You can have all the babies you want, but if none of them survive to have their own, it’s useless.
Sex isn’t just for procreation, even from an evolutionary perspective. It is a way to maintain family cohesion – the chemicals and hormones induced by the act (including oxytocin) create feelings of contentment and love in both men and women.
This occurs even when a woman is already pregnant or breastfeeding (which temporarily delays ovulation). If sex were just for procreation, wouldn’t men be unattracted to pregnant and nursing women? And for that matter, barren women? Fertility is something men can subconsciously smell in female pheremones. Despite this, they still have sex with infertile women and women on hormonal contraception. If sex were just for procreation, the absence of pheremones indicating fertility would presumably correspond with a lack of arousal in men. Why waste the baby juice if the only goal is to create offspring?
See, the key is the presence of a female orgasm. There is no evolutionary reason related to procreation for the existence of it. And it’s not as simple as “it makes women want to get it on,” because women have always been raped (which coincidentally happens to be why I have red hair, but I digress). Since it’s not connected to procreation, that means that sex has another goal. Pleasure.
Hate, Greed and Ignorance are the main contributors to the degredation of society. Plain and simple.
Except he never said he hated gays. He said he disagreed with their lifestyle, but he still loves them as people, paraphrasing of course. You don’t have to totally agree with every person in the world and you can still love them.
Marginalizing a whole population and denying them basic rights could be called “loving to death. “
He said a heck of a lot more than that. He called them “detrimental” and “destructive” to society.
He doesn’t love them. A fundamental component of love is respect. Most of the people who say they love sinners don’t really. Its just something they say. Love is a deep feeling based off of respect, endearment, compassion, and high regard. It is that emotion that says: I’d lay my life down for this person. I would never hurt this person.
I don’t feel that or sense this in his words.
If he loved gays and lesbians with Christ’s love then he would be working at gay and lesbian youth organizations that deal with suicide and depression. He would hug them. He would listen to them.
Christ’s love was not about telling people what they did wrong, but showing them how to do right by each other, how to care for each other, and how to reach God’s kingdom by casting off the trappings of this earth and embracing a higher calling.
Dear Kirkie-Poo,
Just as you have a right to spew your viewpoints on Piers Morgan, the rest of us have the right to say that we think you are a backwards bible-thumping ignoramus. If you don’t like the heat, then stay out of the fire and keep your opinions to yourself. It’s that simple, really. It’s not slander. . . . it’s just an exchange of ideas. I think you’re a complete idiot for your intolerance of homosexuality and I’m sure you would probably think that I was promoting the destruction of the universe for supporting equal rights of ALL human beings, regardless of their race, gender or sexual orientation.
I also think it’s amusing that in his poster for his wide-eyed little polemic, he has apparently decided to depict himself as Jesus by having a little halo of light breaking through the clouds behind his head.
Anyone know who the statue is supposed to be? It’s neither Liberty nor Justice – I can’t work it out.
Too late now. Best to zip it at this point. What a pompous, self-righteous douchebag.
Wasn’t his best friend in high school a guy called “Boner”?
Someone already said it 2 men can’t produce a child; let’s be real it’s unnatural for that to happen – this is what I took…
Now anybody can love anybody no matter who they are or what they are but their are people in this world who doesn’t accept homosexuality at all and U can’t force them to do so…
As for me to each n their own cause if I say or tell what I really think about certain ways/things that LGBT Community it won’t be nice. I don’t hate them cause their people too but I don’t completely embrace everything about them either
Marriage WAS an institution that was solely defined by the bearing of children–nothing else, for thousands upon thousands of years. It has only been about love in the WEST for the last 100 years or so.
Women were put aside–and still are in Muslim theocracies–for their inability to bear children (even though it might have been the man’s fault). They are replaced, put into other houses, sent back to their families, etc when their wombs run dry.
Marriage certainly is being redefined. That much is absolutely true. Family is being redefined. Whether this is good or bad…we shall see, but we are at the top of the rollercoaster and there is no getting off the ride now. Its forward or nothing.
Personally, I believe that two people should be able to share their entire lives, fortunes, etc together WITHOUT the government’s approval.
As for calling it marriage, it is curious to me that an institution which has historical favoritism towards the “man” is now being clamored about and gravitated towards by the same people who have been disparaged by the patriarchal society. It’s almost like those kids in school that tried to hand out with the popular kids and would do anything to go to their parties despite the fact that the popular kids crapped on them.
I just want to shake them and say: STOP IT!!!! Don’t do this.
Rachel Maddow said that she hates the idea of gay marriage because gay culture had found their own way and it was sincere and beautiful. I think that creating and defining your own expression of love is so much better than trying to be a part of another “tool” that doesn’t fit who you are.
Marriage was all about procreation, not about love. This is proven in parts of the world that still arranges marriage.
Now, you can love the person you’re with, but marriage wasn’t and isn’t a state of love and togetherness. It is a safe structure for the purpose of bearing children and raising them. It was about creating a stable societal structure and “tribes”.
However, I am all for people doing their own funky thing even if it is taking steps backwards philosophically, as long as it is in a spirit of purity, love, and compassion.
So to the gays and lesbians who want to jump on the marriage train…I look to the Muslim women who no longer get to keep their children after a divorce, to the Jewish women who must have a “get” in order to remarry (though the husband can get remarried right away), the Mormon women who get one husband while he gets 50 celestial wives and say: are you sure?
I like your post, interesting and well thought out.
I think marriage is silly too, but the only reason I think gay marriage is worth fighting for is for granting the privilege of protection against taxes in matters like death and so on.
What I don’t understand about the push for gay marriage is why do they want to be a part of the system that has kept them out for so long? Civil unions make much more sense to me than a traditional marriage for homosexual people. My beliefs may play into it of course, I don’t doubt. I have not lived in a cave though, and have worked with people of homosexual persuasions on and off for years. If the topic ever came up, the people I talked to in the gay community just wanted the public to accept their unions. A civil union would work just as well for that purpose, I think.
I think many places get it right when there is a legal ceremony and then there is a religious ceremony. I think of a civil union as the legal ceremony and marriage as the religious ceremony. Everyone should be entitled to a civil union but I think the church has a right to say no.
Yes, Leeloo, that is exactly what I meant, and I agree.
Actually legally-there is a difference between a civil union and marriage etc.
Plus you aren’t given a marriage license by your church, your pastor/priest has to be approved by the state to sign your marriage license with the state and county.
Marriage is a civil and legal event (that can be made religious), not the other way around.
I like Rachel Maddow’s perspective on marriage, but the difference is that she is coming from a very priviledged position wherein she and her partner can afford a life where they are not afforded the same legal rights as married couples and they don’t have any intention of having children (if I recall from her previous statements) so they don’t need to worry about the implications of parental rights and second parent adoption.
The gay community has definitely found it’s own way to define long-term partnerships without the acknowledgement of mainstream society, but that doesn’t mean that those who want to be a part of that mainstream institution should be denied.
I never ever thought I would get married – even when I was a child who thought I was straight. Yet I married at 24 years old for 2 reasons: #1 is that I really needed access to the rights that would only be afforded to me if I was married and #2 is because being able to tell my grandparents that I was getting married enabled them to understand my relationship in a way they might never have otherwise been able. It facilitates living in mainstream society and it facilitates the understanding of people from generations and cultural contexts other than my own because it is a relatively universal concept. I don’t need to explain that this woman is my life partner whom I love, I can just say ‘she’s my wife’ and everybody understands.
I get that historically, marriage was often an exchange of women as property and that it was usually for economic or political allegiance and child-bearing purposes, but as you say, we’ve already redefined it. As of the 20th century, marriage is a way of declaring your love to the world and promising your support to your spouse in times of need and in times of joy. If we are going to say that marriage is NOW about love, then we can’t limit who is allowed to love in that way.
@Lee,
I get you, I hear you…but I still think it’s a western concept that marriage is about love.
The other day I had to take a call from a Muslim woman seeking a divorce in Brooklyn and ultimately she chose to stay with an abusive man because under Islamic laws her kids would be given to the husband when they reached late childhood. The weeks before that we’re in court forcing a judge to give a court order that would force a Jewish husband to give his wife a religious get so that she could also remarry. The situation that these women were living with is called marriage by the majority of the world.
My views on marriage have changed as I have been forced to witness, both in the US and abroad exactly what marriage was in its basest state: a place to make babies in such a way that the man can believe the children are his.
Yes, not romantic on my part. I’m glad that you can look at your “wife” and feel a part of something both beautiful and special. I suppose that I see marriage with a bias of my own experience. In the west it seems to be an excuse for a wedding, given the high divorce rate (hello Kim K!) and in the east it can be a prison for women. No, not all, but…many.
Lee, God bless ya, I’m still haunted by the sound of a woman saying…but I HAVE to keep my babies. 🙁
So..let me get this straight..he slandered homosexuals, and now is indignant that he is being slandered? Slither back into your cave of ignorance, irrelevance and nonimportance.
GAY FRIENDS? Bullshit. Any self respecting gay person would drop Kirk like a hot potato the second he described them as “detrimental to society.” And if not, they’re just as dumb as he is.
I find it insulting to the human race that “people” like Cameron are given a platform to spew their ignorance.
If I went on Morgan, and said that the sun sets in the East. I would be made a laughingstock.
IF I said that the sun revolves around the earth. I would be made a laughingstock.
IF I said that Earth is the center of the universe. I would be made a laughingstock.
IF I said that being gay is unnatural and detrimental to all civilization. I will be made a laughingstock.
There are facts of life that we as humans had taken much time to come into acceptance with nature’s true identity. We have persecuted scientists that have tried to enlighten us, we have ridiculed archaeologists for telling us different stories than what the bible tells. And we have snickered at biologists that had tried to explain the nature of our bodies to us.
At the end, science wins. At the end, the words of men wearing robes, preaching in the name of a god they don’t know, will be proven liars.
I’ve said this here a few days ago, and I will say it again, TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE THAT SCIENCE IS AGAINST YOUR GOD:
If you believe in the existence of a higher power, or a supreme being, a creator of all things living, shouldn’t it stand then, when looking through a microscope, to say with all conviction, that that supreme being was the greatest scientist ever?
Shouldn’t it stand that your higher being has created science so that men in robes lying in its name are proven just that, through science, to be liars.
Stop preaching in the name of a fake god, and use the brain cells that higher power had freely made to be at your disposal.
Sing it!
HELLO? Thank God someone gets it!
TELL IT, SISTER!!! Maguita: The Voice of Reason.
What an awesome, well-reasoned response!
Amen! I’m a little ‘c’ christian and am sick of crazy ameritaliban types with their hypocrisy and message of exclusion. Kirk Cameron doesn’t get it that a higher power hates true wickedness such as lying, thieving, greed, destruction of our earth and other species, etc. and actually loves us ALL, gay, straight, whatever. We are here to help each other out and love one another, not judge and condemn out of ignorance and fear.
*climbing off soapbox*
Thank you everyone for your kind words!
Whether a believer or a non believer, there has to be a line drawn somewhere, in the name of evolution. We are of the superior species, we are the thinkers, we are the discoverers. And to deny all history’s hard work, is an insult to whatever creator you believe in, for giving you the chance of being part of the human specie.
I mean, what is next? We’re going to be told that the moon is made out of cheese?… Oh hey Dubya. Just kidding people, I just imagine our ex President raising his hand in moments like these, and it makes me smile/snark.
We don’t know each other but if we did I would be hugging you right now. This is one of the most insightful comments on this issue that I’ve ever read.
I disagree, in the end you will see, and wish you did believe in a higher being.(trust) The higher being did bless people with certain talents to help his people down here on earth, true. But please don’t think you did these things on your own, don’t be ignorant. Your words and beliefs are detrimental and ultimately destructive to society. I just know you’re sitting around thinking you just said something so wonderful because these other fools, are applauding you, PLEASE DON’T!
What is the difference between Kirk Cameron and Tom Cruise?
Both are actors that follow a set of beliefs that demonise homosexuals.
One is more famous/popular than the other but their belief systems are the same.
Welcome to Hollyweird.
I think the main difference is that Tom Cruise keeps his mouth shut about it.
Sure, Kirk, you have a right to express your views ON A NATIONAL TELEVISED FORUM. Just remember that it comes with a price: alienating people who might have gone to see your stupid movie.
God, what a moron.
Was Kirk Cameron really raised as an atheist?
he should come out.
Why is it that free speech should only be allowed for opinions that fit the mainstream?
As much as I might disagree with the content of what people say, they SHOULD be able to express their views and should NOT be shouted down if their opinion isn’t “popular”.
Oh BK, he is free to express himself, but other people are also free to express themselves by vehemently disagreeing, that’s the point. Moreover, freedom of speech means the government can’t regulate speech, but private individuals sure as hell can boycott him and his movie and TV shows that interview him, mock him on the internet, and disagree as loudly as they’d like. That is free speech.
Shouting down is exactly what is necessary in the face of such willful and aggressive ignorance and bigotry. Thank goodness for all the people in this world who “shouted down” against racism, sexism and fought for equal rights. Not shouting down these bigots gives tacit acceptance of their mindset. KC is reaping what he has sown.
Freedom of speech only applies to the GOVERNMENT trying to shut you up. The general public is and always has been free to shout down ideas they find offensive. If you say something that gets such a strong reaction, maybe you should consider that you said something inappropriate instead of blaming everyone else? (That’s a general “you”). In a civil society, even one that values free speech, there are still rules regarding discourse based on cultural sensibilities. If someone violates these rules, they shouldn’t be surprised by a backlash. Calling a group of people “detrimental to society” is generally not considered to be civil discourse. Try applying it to black people, or women. See? It’s really offensive.
I have as much right to shout at you as you do to shout at me.
That is free speech in a nutshell.
Hi asli!
@asli and Maguita: no need to scroll down because your comments said it all. Maguita, I would vote for you if you would run for president, mad writing and reasoning skills 😉
Sidenote: I actually thought the header picture was a mockery of Cameron :D, go figure.
Oh and I think I’m banned on my personal IP for reasons unknown (thanks CB :s) but I just wanted to say hi and could not resist applauding your comments…I’ll miss them…
NM, there is a possibility that you are not banned, but rather stuck in spam land.
Write CB about it, it happened to me a week ago, as it happens to others. CB would simply un-spam your address…
Unless you really went coucou and personally attacked others?
Thank you for the kind words. Wish you luck, and hope you get de-spammed soon!
I thought the photo was a mockery, too, lol!
Anyway, do we really think the youth of America (or anyone really) will actually listen to what this guy has to say?
Thank you kind chicas, don’t know though if ol’ USofA is ready for a woman as President… We’d sure get things done fast without the bullcrap!
I don’t know. I’m just sick of feeling like in order to be a good gay man I constantly have to be hypersensitive and outraged anytime anyone says anything remotely “anti-gay”. That and the fucking stereotypes put out by …well everyone. I think that there are so many subtle yet much more salient examples of homophobia in the media that don’t and won’t ever get called out. Look at how Clay Aiken was treated in the media by late night comedians and comedy sketch shows, how he was hounded, and how even on this website the term “gayface” is used to refer to Ryan Seacrest. Hate to be a hater, but in my opinion,those types of portrayals are so much more harmful to young gay teens than what Kirk Cameron said because they normalize bullying. I stand by what I said before, which is that Kirk’s views are problematic, but that he was asked a very specific question and that he answered it according to a framework of logic that he seems to adhere to pretty consistently, blind items be damned. He didn’t call names or crack jokes about “gayfaces” (which is exactly what bullies do), he simply stated his beliefs. Now how those beliefs would be interpreted by a young gay teen affected by his ministry is another thing, they could push the girl or boy over the edge. But let’s be honest, the issues are more dirty and complicated than Kirk Cameron who is basically a nobody these days.
Wow, bitta…you are right. Impactful comment.
++ Boost
@bitta83-Agree to an extent. If I’m understanding you correctly, your point is that the late-night comedians cloak what you deem to be homophobic slurs in the guise of humor and that is more insidious, thus more harmful. I guess I disagree in the sense that if something is funny, it’s hard for me to be offended by it because I’m too busy laughing (ex: Howard Stern). However, if a concept which borders on hatred is “sold” to the public through the powerful and persuasive tool of religion then I think it is much MUCH more dangerous and influential not to mention pious and cowardly. Now, as I said before, I don’t think Kirk Cameron is influencing anybody who already strongly disagrees with him but I still think it does a disservice to religion in general to hide behind “God” when defending your intolerance of fellow human beings.
hey OK
Agree to disagree? :-). I think the late night jokes are unintentionally modeling acceptable behavior . I don’t think Jay Leno or Conan hate gay people, and on the contrary I think they do like them etc. But the name Clay Aiken has in and of itself become a punchline in popular culture, mainly because of his perceived “gayness”, along with the cheesiness of his songs and the hysteria of his fans. People don’t say it, but the whole punch is that he’s a “fag”. And that carries on into our schools and I have no doubt that it’s fuel for the fire for stupid high school bullies who drive kids to suicide. Much more than silly Kirk Cameron. Honestly a lot of people want things both ways: they want to not feel guilty laughing at what amount to “fag” jokes but they also want everyone to be on board with their progressive beliefs and to “stand” against “homophobia”. I like inappropriate humor and I laugh at Clay Aiken jokes, but I try not to repeat them, and every so often I say a thing or two, as much as that poops on the party.
Agree to disagree 🙂
I think all your points are well made though-I just don’t totally agree. Just to clarify-I am not one of those people that wants it both ways (and I totally hear ya on that point). I laugh at anything that’s funny, regardless of whether I find it personally offensive or offensive towards others. Again the key is if it makes me laugh. I’ll laugh my ass off at Stern-who many women find mysoginistic or offensive towards women (I guess that’s redundant). A lot of it has to do with who is saying it as well. A comdeian’s job is to make people laugh and yes, it comes with some social responsibility but ultimately, I find it all to be pretty harmless. Then again, I’m not gay so I can only contextualize and relate in terms of being a woman. For the record, I think Leno and the like are completely UNfunny so doubtful I would laugh at any of their lame-ass jokes 😉
I just worry that people are throwing so much energy at this Cameron guy when he’s so not worth it. I guess Lesbians and Gays are lucky to have such wildly vocal supporters, so there should be no complaints there. I feel like he should get some credit for forming an intelligible argument, as crazy as it is, probably because my expectations of certain Christians are so so low. Growing up in rural Vermont, I’ve seen “Christians” scream and yell while holding a bible that the bible tells us homosexuality is wrong and then the moment you ask them where in the bible it says so, they draw a blank. So this guy is a pleasure for me to listen to. Twisted, I know. He leaves me with absolutely no sense of vague panic, unlike some of the comedians you see on TV. Leno and Fallon suck, the rest are ok. 😉
Bitta-you are (were) my neighbor! See, this is why we can have a rational conversation-4 of my 5 closest friends are from VT 😉 Off topic but SUCH a gorgeous state. I hear ya on all your points. Lots of food for thought and I definitely plan on letting everything you said “marinate” for a bit. Again, as a straight lady, always interesting for me to hear a more personal perspective from someone who is directly affected by gay rights issues (my BF is gay and she has a VERY similar stance to you-she’s was also raised by a Quaker-TOTAl peacemaker, she is). Thanks again for the intelligent and thoughtful exchange. Just have to add: I love C/B because of this very reason 🙂
Well said. You are thoughtful and I appreciate your take. I, however, feel that Jesus is being slandered by Kirk so I will continue to be a harpy about it if that’s alright with you? 🙂
God Bless You Rin! xoxox
It’s judgemental self-righteous Christians, Muslims and the like who are DESTRUCTIVE, Killing millions of people throughout the ages in order to satisfy their “Gods” bloodlust.
His words enable those just like him, Abuse, Harrass and terrorize others who simply want to be left alone.
It’s Mob Mentality. The Group Fears what is different and ultimately Resents those who have the guts to be themselves.
Humans are pack animals and need to rise above their animalistic behavior.
I think Kirk is probably closeted and angry that he can’t live his own life, so he’d like to stop others from living theirs.
Who cares what he thinks or says. He should save it for his ‘cult’ if he still has one.
Leave others alone and stop the harrassment Kirk, Shut the ‘F’ up and go away before you incite more hatred and violence.
Shame on you.
Holy drama queen!
Perhaps.
But it is true that people have justified countless of atrocious acts in the name of religion. Acts they could never have justified in any other way.
Wait, you left out the Jewish nation!
It sounds like he is getting a small dose of what it’s like to be hated on for being who you are. The fact that he thinks he has gay friends is laughable.
i believe he meant no harm, he was talking about his beliefs, he is a loving father and husband, it’s fine not to agree with him, just like it’s ok he does not believe as you do, blind items are mostly fake, kirk is not nor have he ever been gay. i have read some of his study guide’/watch his videos he is a caring and loving man who wants to help people. everything is not always mean spirit when disagreeing with someone.
That seems to be his crime : he disagreed.
I’m sorry originalSandy, but saying that who I am is detrimental to society is not disagreeing with me. It’s saying that I shouldn’t exist because of who I love.
@WTF…I’m so sorry if you feel that way, kirk is basing everything he says out of the bible, it’s not meant to anger anyone, it’s what the bible teaches…granted everyone does not live by the bible standards..but a lot of people do. it’s what the bible teaches, i am not defending anyone, just explaining, everyone has a right to their own beliefs, including kirk. have a good day.
@Sandy
The Hebrew Torah has 663 laws. Most everyone has broken 90% of them at some point. Jesus in the Gospel accounts states that those laws were given by MOSES (he didn’t say Yahweh) for the “hardness of their hearts”. He states that there are 2, just 2, commandments: Love God and love they neighbor as thyself. He is then shown to have explained those and how to employ them in your daily life: care for the poor, the sick, those in prison, etc.
Nowhere does it say, in fact it says the opposite in the Gospels, that we are allowed to go around pointing our fingers at our brothers and sisters and sticking our nose in their business.
Kirk Cameron needs to pluck the beam from his own eye and go work at a homeless shelter instead of commenting on the “sins” of others.
btw, Paul–that guy who was not the Messiah and never prophesied by the prophets about and whose word we’re expected to believe even though he contradicted Jesus on almost every turn–even that guy used two specific words that have been interpreted by modern scholars to mean homosexuality, when in fact…it kinda meant S&M and drag queens.
Sorry…I just want to make it clear that those who follow Christ are not all on this homosexuals are the bane of human existence thing.
Actually, Original Sandy, I don’t buy the “he’s only quoting the bible” argument. I don’t hear him running around telling us not to wear mixed fibers, eat shellfish, and to stone fornicators to death. He singled out ONE part of Leviticus. I’d love it if he made as much of a big deal about loving one another. Not doing that is what’s causing the downfall of society.
That poster cracks me up!
I knew Kirk Cameron personally, before he found Jesus. He started dating a born again girl and got super into her religion. Prior to that he was a Robert Pritikin disciple. Not every person who hates gays is a closet case. Kirk is no hypocrite. He is ignorant and misdirected, but he lives his faith. His words are perfectly in line with the teachings of his church.
Good to know
Hmm, thats not what one of the blind item sites says; that he used to pick up guys all the time in his car.
You do know they are “Blind” sites right…
Er, thats what I just said…
It was confirmed on a Blind site by the article and by others in the comments.
…and people wonder how America produces juries where someone like Casey Anthony is acquitted. Seriously. ” I read it in the comments section of a random gossip website so IT MUST BE TRUE !” Yet you give him heat for referencing the bible.
Yeah, there’s a blind item about my hot affair with Chris Hemsworth. It’s totally true, in case you wanted to know.
Lol Rin
I’d like to know, if he holds these beliefs, then how exactly should he respond to questions about those beliefs? He already knows how unpopular his beliefs are. Do people expect that he should lie and deny his own thoughts and beliefs? I find a lot of the commentary against him to be reactive, hyperbolic and convoluted, but oddly I understand precisely what he has to say and why he’s saying it. I just disagree with it. I do appreciate the fact that he can piece together a coherent thought. I would much rather deal with him than with someone who was constantly cracking “gay” jokes but wouldn’t own up to how menacing those jokes could be.
Kirk Cameron is an idiot, and is following teachings that he is not capable of thinking through and seeing the faults in the logic. The brand of Christian fundamentalism that he follows is Christian in it’s core doctrine…he IS a Christian. Just like Phelps, just like the Duggars, and others. They ignore the two overriding commands of the gospel, where Jesus said to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and to love your neighbour as yourself.
So they are Christians, but have forgotten the two commandments which for Christians struck down the old code.
I agree with Leeloo and others on this one. Just ignore him and his ravings. I say this as a Christian and a believer in knowledge, and the separation of church and state.
Agree. Kirk is a good person. He is just misguided. I don’t think he’s highly intelligent. He doesn’t think for himself. I think the snide remarks about him being a closet case and the glee with which people are certain some bs blind item is about him are far more homophobic than Kirk’s Christian bigotry. You can’t champion gay rights and call someone gay as an insult in the same breath. Kirk as a teenager was enamored of all the young women who guest starred on the show.Although it was Alan who usually took them home.
I cannot believe that there are people who still think like he does. How does a loving couple regardless of their gender, doing nothing but loving each other, cause society to be destabilised or be detrimental?
As far as him having gay friends, well I’d believe that as much as I’d believe a KKK member has African-American friends. He basically said his alleged friends were detrimental to society. What self-respecting friend would support him saying that? He is a liar. And being a liar is unChristian.
“He basically said his alleged friends were detrimental to society.”
Exactly. Thank you for pointing that out, HH. What kind of person calls a specific group “unnatural” and “ultimately destructive to so many of the foundations of civilization” and then claims he has friends who are members of that group? Kirk exhibits stupid logic. He’s a whiner, to boot. He can publicly dish it out, but he can’t take it.
Jesus’ message was that people should show compassion and tolerance for their fellow human beings. It is absolutely absurd to hear these zealots spout that they follow his teachings when they behave exactly the opposite way. There’s nothing more pathetic than a self-righteous hypocrite with no self-awareness.
This dumbass douche is lucky people are only ‘slandering’ him…
He’s no better than people who tried to keep blacks enslaved by invoking the same garbage.
I am tired of all the hate spewed by some xtians. Its not okay and its not his right.
oohh im not racist…i have black friends! yeah we all know this kind of saying simply points out that u are indeed prejudiced! y shud u be able to single out and count the diverse friends u are just top prove something. Like kirk says oohh i cant be homophobic i have gay friends. gtfoh with that, that does not mean squat. Hes just a religious wacko! plain and simple.
Do you get the feeling that there are a lot of girls- now they’re women of course- that could have “snagged” him back in the day…and now they’re thanking their lucky stars? Have at it Chelsea Noble- HE’S ALL YOURS! Bwahahaha!!!!
This reminds me of this guy who I briefly dated before I got married. He was a major weasel, and I dumped him when I figured out how sleazy he was. Now he’s this super preachy fundamentalist who doesn’ believe in birth control, women wearing pants or cutting their hair, etc. Phew….glad I didn’t marry that!!
It’s only a matter of time before he is caught with his pants down – literally, with another guy. We all know it’s coming. Every other person in recent history this anti-gay has turned out to be a closet homosexual. I can’t wait for that day.
Disagreeing with his viewpoints is not slander. Calling him a lying closet case is.
I do not agree with his viewpoint and have loudly stated so but I also have not resorted to calling into question his sexuality bases on blind items. Perhaps that is the slander he refers to.
Disagreeing with his viewpoints is not slander. Calling him a lying closet case is. I do not agree with his viewpoint and have loudly stated so but I also have not resorted to calling into question his sexuality bases on blind items.
Slander’s difficult to prove, and has to be blatantly false. So if Kirk Cameron has been slandered as a result of all of this, it would have to be about something he didn’t say, right?
For him to call someone basically an abomination because of their sexual practices is so very narrow. What about the rest that person’s psyche? What are they like when they aren’t having sex with the partner of their choice? That’s what I’d want to know before I started throwing things around like he did
Who the hell is this douchebag and why are we caring what he says?
“LGBT Bandwagon…” NOW that would be SOMEthing I’d love to see!!!
It’s fine that he thinks what he thinks. He can think whatever he wants. You can also say anything you want. But be prepared for the same from other people.
People like Kirk surround themselves with like minded people who agree with their points of view. So he feels free to say things not realizing that he is way out of step with the majority. He is shocked to find that he is in the minority. It probably never occurs to him that he is a zealot.
People like him and Rick Santorum have gay on the brain.
I find it mind boggling too. Right now people need to hear about solutions and ideas. Poverty, jobs, healthcare, energy…these are the things that affect everyday life. These social issues are a distraction that should not be driving the conversation and yet it’s like catnip to the zealots.
It’s disappointing.
I don’t live in the U.S. and am puzzled by the hatred and vitriol uber-conservatives like Cameron and his ilk spout against anything remotely liberal, forward-thinking and inclusive. It’s like they’re circling their wagons against invading forces when, in fact, the very people and cultural influences they’re afraid of are making the U.S. and the world a better place. Creating barriers is not the way to improve a society, but they have a “divide and conquer” mentality that puts America back 100 years.
I did not see KC making hateful statement against gays, he is disagreeing with the lifestyle. If this is modern America, how come people are out to slander you when you disagree with them. News flash..not everyone in this country agrees with homosexuality and they have a right to feel that way without being called, “hateful, ignorant, bible bashing.” Gay people slander others too but I guess they can get away with that. I find it slander when you all call KC a closet homo because of his viewpoints, but none of you seem to mind being hypocrites when you stand up for a cause you don’t completely understand. And please stop comparing homosexual rights to my black race. I don’t appreciate it and being black is not a damn choice.
I’m not sure that I’d agree it meets the definition of slander but his comments were hateful in accusing homosexuals of being a danger because he thinks homosexuality is destructive and a threat to civilization. These are his religious views and a common interpretation of the bible from people who claim the bible is the complete, inerrant word of G-d as dictated to some guy “2000” years ago and then passed down in the oral tradition until it could be put in writing, reorganized and translated. The problem is, his only support for his statements is that the bible says G-d said so and, according to his fans, the fact that the cultures of ancient Greece and ancient Rome do no exist today.
Unfortunately for Kirk, religion has a pretty hefty proven track record of leaving a wake of destruction in its path. If we need to ban things that destroy civilization based on their destructive history, it would seem that organized religion, not homosexuality, is the threat.
Speaking as a gay man, I’d like to remind Kirk Cameron, Rick Santorum, and anyone else who believes as they do, that religion is a choice; my sexuality is NOT.
True dat!
debatable
@Kim
How so? I’m assuming that you’re referring to my sexuality. If so, for the sake of this discussion, I’m also going to assume that you identify as heterosexual. At what point in your life did YOU choose your sexuality?
With that being said, unless, and until, you’ve walked in the shoes of an LGBT person, I would respectfully ask that you not make assumptions or statements about what you believe to be our choice in life.
I think that he knows more about whether his sexuality was a choice than you do, Kim. Unless you’ve lived inside his body, you have no right to debate him.
I’d also like to say a big THANK YOU to @ol cranky, @Asli, and everyone else here who’s been sweet enough to offer support and understanding to your LGBT sisters and brothers. It really means a lot, and warms my heart in a big way.
I think it’s more important than ever for straight women, gays, and other minorities to fight for one anothers’ rights. Solidarity will win the day. We are all human beings and we all deserve basic dignity and respect from society and the government.
I’ve really been pushing here in Minnesota against the gay marriage amendment, as have a lot of other feminists. We see that most women’s issues are on the same spectrum as LGBT issues. Gender and sexuality based oppression hurt us all, and we have to fight against it together.
Did you know that the largest voting demographic in the U.S. is the RAE, or Rising American Electorate? It’s made up of single women, young people, and minorities. We tend to vote as a bloc without purposely coordinating it. I think this is a great sign that people are realizing that we’re all in the same boat.
I think he should direct his comments to straight couples. We are the ones that keep having gay babies after all. Have a heart to heart with your parents, Kirk. Hopefully they’ll still love you after you come out of your big, sacred closet.
Serves him right!
For a bunch of people who claim to be tolerant and say they cant stand Kirk you sure are spending alot of time & energy saying vile things about him. Why isnt everyone just ignoring him? You are adding fuel to his fire by commenting.
Could not have happened to a more deserving guy..
I don’t agree with Kirk, but he’s perfectly entitled to his point of view. If Kirk was a religious Jew, I don’t think many of you would criticize his faith. Lets face it, some groups are more protected than others and receive a ‘special’ status above all others. That’s not equality, even though it’s spin doctored that way.
He names a group of people a blight on society and now acts simply shocked that people are angry? Please. Nobody is that stupid. What did he expect? He makes his pronouncements and millions of gays enter treatment for a cure?
hmmm, I think that’s called Scientology.
“There’s all sorts of issues that we need to wrestle through in our life. Just because you feel one way doesn’t mean we should act on everything that we feel.” I’m just going to leave it at that.
After years of this disgusting tripe, I can honestly only think of one reason that people like Kirk can’t wrap their heads around anything other than the SEX gay people have, and that’s that they have homosexual attractions themselves. They truly believe that being gay is a choice, because for them, they’re making the (probably painful) choice to ignore those urges. They don’t realize that not everyone has them. They, ironically, don’t have any concept of what it’s like to actually be heterosexual.
At least that’s the only way that I can ever make sense of it.
My personal opinion is that men are scared that they will suddenly be stuck in the same position that women have been stuck in for thousands of years. I know two straight guys–not gay at all–who don’t like gay men because “they hit on you” and “they don’t take no for an answer”.
I try to take no gleeful pleasure in saying: Oh, that’s just a guy thing. Deal with it like we have to.
Rin you are too funny. Praise Jebus!
You’re SO right. God forbid (no pun intended) a man have to worry about being objectified by someone to whom they’re not attracted.
I’ve had guys tell me the same thing. I have to hide my (evil) glee that they’ve experienced, just a few times, what women deal with starting as early as age 13! lol
There is scientific evidence to back up this opinion. Some researchers attached measuring devices to participants’ genitalia and had them watch various adult movie scenes. Straight men who identified themselves as having no problem with gays only became aroused when they viewed two women or a hetero couple in an adult movie. The straight men who identified themselves as homophobic, on the other hand, became aroused not only on the straight and lesbian scenes, but also in the male-on-male scenes. Interesting, huh? Why would you get a stiffie watching men go at it if you find that sort of thing repulsive?
That’s crazy, thanks for the info! I wonder, though, how often it’s a case of “I’m disgusted by this part of myself, so I transfer that disgust onto others” versus “of course everyone gets urges like that, we just have to refrain from acting on them”…
It’s a great question, and it would be very interesting to find out about. I think that is the next layer of this issue that needs to be researched. Unfortunately it’s not one that can be answered by studying physiology alone. And getting such repressed people to open up and be honest in order to study their psychology is tricky, to put it mildly.
He’s obviously gay. They’re the ones who are the deepest in the closet and have the most to say. It’s not going to make this gayface straight.
Free speech is a two way street. KC was asked his views, and he chose to give them. He wants media coverage for his film, yet doesn’t want his views, which drive that film’s message challenged? Sorry, Mike Seaver, this is the real world, to help with the “pains” try growing a pair…
My issue is his wording. He is a Christian of some sort, he is allowed to believe homosexuality is a sin. My issue is with homosexuality is “ultimately destructive to so many of the foundations of civilization.” — ask Plato and Aristotle.
He doesn’t like Catholics either. I knew that. It explains why Santorum acts like he does and makes me wonder what they will think when they realize Santorum believes in Saints. But I digress – according to this person he also hates mainline Protestants.
http://debrasrandomthoughts.blogspot.com/2009/03/yes-mr-cameron-catholics-are-christians.html
<3 ya Kirk with my real Christian heart:
My religion is the one that comes from Peter, Luther and Calvin not yours.
It may be the gay soft pr0n lighting in the pic but…he um… looks gay…. in that last photo with the light blue shirt. I didn’t want to say it because I have gay friends and I didn’t want to insult them but then I realized that whatever he is, he is embarrassing to all.
He and Doogie Howser could be cousins!
I am a christain & I know the story of Sodom & Gomorrah. But then again, people’s sexual preference must be respected & it is left for God to judge us all.
Addion so you want to call homosexuals wrong but you are upset that people will call you wong when you do? Are you 7? Giving others equal rights does not infringe upon Or take away rights from you. It just makes it illegal to enforce your prejudice and hate. When you say hateful things which KC did you’ll be called out on it. He looks as ignorant, bigoted and dated as the racist whites did on old news reels fighting desegregation. Get On the right side of history. You have the right to say it but get real. You will be socially reprimanded for holding uh unpleasant beliefs..
Kirk Cameron is so homophobic, he obviously has sexual orientation issues. Men who are so anti-homosexual are afraid of their own desires – it is a defense mechanism. He is in denial. I am not interested in any project he works on because he is such a horse’s ass.
You know, I always thought he was running from his real orientation. I mean he ran toward this religion, not that it’s wrong, at such a young age and quickly married, again, not that it’s wrong and proceeded to have a bunch of kids, again, nothing wrong with that either. I just remembered at the time he was pretty hot and had a career ahead of him if he wanted and he took a strange turn. I always wondered if he left that life behind because he was too afraid of how he REALLY felt?
What a crybaby moron. How the hell do you go around whining about how you’re being ‘slandered’ when you did the exact same thing to an entire group of our population?
Typical Republithug response. Let me spew my venom and its OK, but the moment someone calls me out on it, THEY are wrong.
Loser.
Waooohhh!!!! some of you people should cool off. I think
waoohhh!!!! some of you should chill out everyone should be entitle to their thought, because in this great country we believe that freedom of speech and religion go hand-in-hand. Unfortunately what was most disturbing to me was the number of reply with hatred comments, I do not see the necessity to reply with such nastiness and vulgarity. For those who replied in that matter, You have me wonder about your tolerance and how you perceive people who are different from your sexual orientation and I wonder if it doesn’t go deeper then just the sexual orientation with so much hatred in your heart. Now it is you’re right to disagree and debate with Kirk Cameron speech, but give the reader at least the pleasure of reading some intelligent debate on the subject. From the beginning of time we function with negative and positive such as electricity, reproductivity to bring life and it also apply to debate if his speech was so out of line and incorrect to you then share and expose your argumentative thoughts on the subject in a respectful manner.
I have to give it to Kirk Cameron, how brave and courageous he is, for being so honest and forward after being place in an undesirable sit. I couldn’t say the same about the CNN Host. I think people should be respectful because as Kirk said it was his PERSONAL belief as such others may think differently and that will be there personal belief also, Who are we to said what is right or wrong, it is so easy to judge but no one has really providing the audience why Kirk Cameron speech was so wrong, is there evidence of otherwise. I heard the story of Adam and Eve, the celebration of marriage was also something about the continuity of bringing live to this earth, and if not marriage could be dissolved. I feel sometimes the gay community and it partisans should try to understand that not everyone will believe that 2 man or 2 woman are met or not to be together and who are we to judge. I will say my only reserve is family issue with 2 parent of the same sex. Simply when I read comment from gay people regarding for instance Kirk Cameron speech it goes from (moron, homophobic, sexual orientation issues, douchebag, etc…..) really people, how with such little understanding and respect of others way of thinking can you except people to listen, understand your view on your way of living and your hope of the future. So I wonder when children are involve in 2 same sex parents what values, guidance, etc.. beside love are you going to provide for those children. Any statistic on adult children from same sex parents
I dont believe, and personal experience has proven this to be true, that it doesnt matter how carefully you phrase a belief that marriage should continue to be through a man and a woman. That many people feel it is a choice. People rain down hate and call you homophobic or say well then you must be secretly gay. (Umm i thought that was ok with you, oh wait if im gay i mist be your kind of gay?? You CAN disagree with someone and NOT hate them. But youll see here comes the hate and/or people telling me im stupid. PS i have hired trangendered people-gay people and cross dressers in a blue collar environment
Because men & women have done such an incredible job honoring the sanctity of marriage and the marital vows.*snort*
I think that his “gay friends” (snort – as if he had any!) will definitely NOT be his friends after his intolerable remarks. What a f*#@ing douchebag!
I think Kirk Cameron is detrimental and ultimately destructive to society.
I’m an atheist, but I agree with Cameron. And even if I didn’t, he has the right to express his beliefs (which have been the norm throughout human history) without being treated like a pariah.