Game of Thrones’ latest shocking scene: horrible and hard to watch? (spoilers)

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Spoilers for Sunday’s episode of Game of Thrones are below
Everyone is talking about Game of Thrones’ latest shocking scene, which wasn’t at all shocking to me because someone emailed me the spoiler for it first thing Monday morning. I watch the episodes the next day after I’m done working, so that truly ruined the scene for me. I shouldn’t blame that one clueless person, though, there are websites which have put that spoiler in their story titles, which is just as wrong.

I saw the scene coming, but if I didn’t know what was going to happen, I would have been shocked. Jaime has been humanized by losing his hand and by developing a friendship with Brienne. He saved Brienne from being raped, and I would never have imagined that he would rape his own sister right next to the corpse of her dead son. King Joffrey was actually the son of Cersei and Jaime, something Cersei kept mentioning during the lead-up to her rape. This scene made me consider how this incestual relationship between the siblings came about. At some point Jaime likely coerced Cersei, probably when she was very young. The relationship was presented as consensual, but now that doesn’t seem to be the case. (At least on the show’s version.) Suddenly Cersei is a more sympathetic character.

This isn’t how it happened in the books, though. As E! explains, a similar scene in the books was consensual. Pajiba’s Cindy Davis has written an open letter to GOT writers David Benioff and Dan Weiss taking them to task for so deliberately twisting the relationship between those characters in the on-screen version. Many readers of the books see it as a betrayal. Here’s a link to book author George RR Martin’s take on that scene.

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Meanwhile we were introduced to another of Cersei and Jaime’s offspring, Joffrey’s younger brother and soon to be king, Tommen. Tommen is ready to rule, and he’s ready to listen to whatever his grandfather tells him is the right course of action. So now we have another set of people who benefit from Joffrey’s death. We also learned that ruthless pimp Littlefinger plotted the death of Joffrey, with the help of the Jester Dontos. (Whom Littlefinger killed for his trouble.) Littlefinger surely had another accomplice on the scene, and we sort-of learned who that was too.

There were all sorts of other interesting plot points in this episode, most notably The Khaleesi encouraging the slaves of Meeren to rise up against their oppressors and join her army. You know that’s going to turn out in her favor.

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The Night’s Watch are rightfully scared as the evilest of the wildlings, the cannibal tribe under Thenn, have joined up with the others and plan to attack The Wall. The wildlings think that the Night’s watch is at least a thousand strong, but if they get to Craster’s Keep before the Night’s Watch, they’ll learn that the wall is weak and vulnerable.

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There’s more of course, but I’ll let you discuss it. Pajiba has a more complete recap if you’re interested. Game of Thrones continues to bring intense drama every week, and maybe I’ll stay up until 10 on Sundays so I can watch it while it happens. That’s probably the only way I’ll avoid spoilers.

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photo credit: HBO

 

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224 Responses to “Game of Thrones’ latest shocking scene: horrible and hard to watch? (spoilers)”

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  1. Tatjana says:

    Never have I EVER felt so betrayed by a TV show. They ruined Stannis, they changed Robb. But why are they making Jaime the monster and Cersei the victim? F**k you GoT writers.

    • iskra says:

      I completely agree…they have ruined Jaime, the only character who was so far in the show faithful to G.R.R.M´s original characters. Since they changed his whole timeline and storyline, that scene in the sept was unnecessary and taken way too far. I am very disappointed. It is even worse what they did to Cersei and especially Shae….like they have written two completely new characters. I am also shocked with the statements of director of the episode and even Nikolaj who said that it may have not been rape, or at least that is not how they perceived it.

      • msw says:

        WHAT? They’re saying that the scene in the show may not have been rape? That is completely screwed up and disgusting, far worse than this change in the first place.

      • FLORC says:

        I’m done with this show. They keep the names, but change everything else. This is not GoTs.

      • Whatwhatnot says:

        Ironically I discussed this scene with two male friends from two completely different areas of my life (work/personal) and both were shocked to hear me describe the scene as rape and took it to be more about Cersei not wanting to have sex by her son’s corpse. They didn’t see feel her “no” “stop” as sincere and didn’t thought she was “fake” fighting him off. These are two men I consider decent, considerate people who would never try to hurt anyone, but it just taught me that even then, men seem to interpret things totally differently. SMH

      • Silver says:

        This can only happen in a rape culture where it’s always the victim’s fault (you know…she was asking for it **barf**)

      • Cheap Trick says:

        What the actual **** were they thinking? Were they like, “hmm, you know what the show REALLY needs? More rape!” – “Brilliant idea! We had not enough of those!” – “Rape as plot-devise? Ah-ma-zing!”

        But what is actually terrifying is that dude literally said: “And it worked out really well. That’s one of my favorite scenes I’ve ever done.” Not kidding. ONE. OF. MY. FAVORITE. SCENES. What? W.h.a.t? Jesus Christ!

        So done with this show!

      • Miss Melissa says:

        Have to disagree here. Maybe because I read the books, but I didn’t get rape from it? I got Cersei manipulating him yet again and Jaime calling her bluff.

        I am no means no to the hilt in real life, but somehow I got that Cersei didn’t mean no, just not next to Joffrey’s corpse.

        It must be because of the relationship between them described in the books. Even though they changed the scene, I knew it was going to happen the minute he asked to be left alone with her.

      • FLORC says:

        Miss Melissa
        I read the books. A lot of us here did, I think. Lots of this can go both ways judging from how an actor comes off to the individual viewer. And I understand the writers needing to keep things interesting and fresh for the viewers that read the books.
        This scene though… It killed the show for me. That and the many rape scenes. It almost glorifies it.
        A bit OT, but watching Black Sails I noticed the ratings before the show started. Apparently R for Rape is a rating now. Not just V=violence and AS= adult situations doesn’t cover it. We’re entering an age of desensitizing the population to rape. Ugh. Hope this passes moderation.

    • Eleanor Zissou says:

      It’s been 2 days and I’m still incredibly upset.

    • LadyMTL says:

      ITA, I am really disappointed that the writers “rape-ified” this scene. I remember in season 1 they sort of did the same thing with Dany and Khal Drogo (changed a consensual sex scene to rape) and I cannot believe that they did it again.

      I’m not saying that it was all that much better in the books – I mean, it is incest, at the end of the day – but I’m just baffled as to why the writers feel like they need to do this again.

    • tifzlan says:

      I’m not gonna lie, i cried during the scene. It was really traumatizing.

    • almondey says:

      YEP. this. I find it really hard to reconcile the characters in the book with the HBO version but tarnishing Jaime..who has so much complexity and who’s always been morally ambiguous and totally destroying his arc is beyond more than I can stand.

    • gefeylich says:

      Lena Headey has been yammering about how Cersei is “misunderstood” and “a victim of overbearing males” since the series began, also saying that she’d discussed the direction they’d take the character with the writers and producers, which sounds to me as if she strong-armed them into softening Cersei from the batshit crazy monster she is in the books to someone far more “sympathetic.”

      To this I say: FEH. I still hate Cersei, and this made me hate Headey, a self-aggrandizing meddlesome actor who cares much more about her own image on screen and less about adhering to the character as written by Martin. Making the sex scene next to Joffrey’s corpse non-consensual is just another step in changing Cersei from manipulative crazoid to “poor sad woman who’s lost so much and must fight the male power base in Westeros.”

    • kim says:

      me neither Melissa. I would have to watch it again and question my own mind, but I did not see a rape either. No offense meant, just being honest

    • Bluebear says:

      There must be something wrong with me. I wasn’t bothered by the scene… at all. I had to go back and look up what the “awful, horrible, disgusting scene that everyone is talking about” was. Don’t get me wrong, in real life, I am a HUGE fighter for victim rights, have stood by friends when they were raped and consoled them. My mother is a therapist and raised me to see the world in her way, but I also see something that many people will say is victim blaming. So let me clarify: Was it wrong? Yes. Was it rape? Yes. Was it a man who had just lost his child losing his mind and seeking solace in the body of his lover? Maybe. Does that make it okay? No I had a visceral reaction to the slaying of the bastard children in season one (or was it early two?) and this scene did not evoke that kind of emotion from me. I actually see how the men saw it as her saying no to the location, not the act. Frankly, she isn’t a moral woman, and I don’t think she has any great objection to having sex with him at that moment, it was the location that she objected to. She did repeatedly say no, so it is unwilling sex and therefore is rape, however there is far more to that story than boiling him down to a rapist and her to a victim. Far, FAR more.

    • Delorb says:

      But isn’t he the same guy who pushed a CHILD out of a tower? NOW people are making the connection that he’s a bad guy? Didn’t he also kill his king and father children with his sister? I find it hard to root for anyone from that family, except for Tyrion.

      Everyone else is a monster, in every sense of the word. I wouldn’t put it past Cersei to poison her own son. She didn’t want to give up the throne. She didn’t want Margaery to wear the crown. It was in her best interest that her son die, IMO.

      And yes, I know that Tyrion said she would never and little finger practically admitted that he did. I’m just saying that if anyone would see poisoning her son as a good thing, it would be her.

  2. Tiffany27 says:

    That scene was disappointing and unnecessary and seemed completely out of character for Jaime.

    • Momoftwo says:

      Out of character? This is a guy who is having sex with his sister and pushed a little boy out of a window to try to kill him because he was caught

      • Tatjana says:

        The whole point is that we saw a change in Jaime for the better, while Cersei stayed a horrible person. Now that flew out of the window.
        And when it comes to treatment of women, Jaime is one of the best men in GoT.

      • iskra says:

        I am sorry, but everyone who had read the books know that Jaime is completely disgusted with the act of rape and every bad and violent behavior towards women. (Brienne, Rhaella, Pia) This really is completely out of his character.

      • Kelly says:

        I agree Momoftwo, but it’s easy to see how people quickly forgive and forget.

        Whatever good Jaime does, he’s still the type of person who can push a small child to its death just so he can keep f*cking his own sister.

        Sorry, if you expect him to turn into a saint by the end of the show, it’ll never happen. I’m actually glad the writers have reminded us that underneath the charm and great manners, there’s a selfish twisted person ready to crush you without any qualms.

      • Tatjana says:

        His love for Cersei was so strong he pushed a child from a window. That’s exactly why he would never rape her. And since then, he hasn’t done anything awful ( in the books at least). Cersei manipulates HIM. She’s the only person he ever loved, ever slept with.
        Arya killed a young boy when she was fleeing from King’s Landing. Is she a monster, too?

      • Samtha says:

        @Kelly, I disagree that he pushed Bran out the window for sex with Cersei. If anyone found out about the affair, his children would have been in danger along with him and Cersei. That doesn’t justify hurting a child, but at least there’s clear reasoning in that–he made the choice between his family and someone else.

      • Kelly says:

        “His love for Cersei was so strong he pushed a child from a window”
        Err what? Sorry, what kind of reasoning is this?? Seriously? Oh I love you so much I will kill innocent children for you?? Sorry, that is HORRIBLE. That’s not love, that’s selfishness and psychopathy.

        “That doesn’t justify hurting a child, but at least there’s clear reasoning”
        Which means you are somehow justifying it to yourself nonetheless?
        Nothing justifies hurting another innocent person, adult or child, fullstop. No further reasoning needed.

      • Diana Prince says:

        Thank you. An incestuous murder thy name is Jamie Lannister.

      • Tatjana says:

        I didn’t say he was a good person for it, I say that that’s the reason he would not rape her.

      • Side-Eye says:

        Jaime Lannister is also the man who stopped a genocidal king from destroying an entire country full of people.

        He’s also the man who sought revenge for a young girl who was repeatedly gangraped in the books.

        He’s also a man who was utterly disgusted by the deaths of the two young Targaryen children after the war.

        He’s also a man who saved Brienne from rape and torture at the hands of maniacs.

        You can be mad about Bran all you want, but reducing him to this one note character, and simplifying his actions(I mean, it’s appalling, but from his POV Bran witnessing would have had the only woman he’s ever loved and had sex with and their children killed) to an act of murderous lust is absurd and broadcasting an almost ridiculously shallow understanding of the books/show. It’s also ignoring the entire Jaime/Cersei dynamic making Cersei–the person who’s been the one manipulating *him* his entire life, and has had people murdered for way less into a victim(while robbing her of her agency) and him into a perpetrator in one fell swoop, negating everything GRRM–through character development and backstory and psychological storytelling–has done for the character. I’m so over this show, for ruining yet another great character.

      • Samtha says:

        @Kelly, I’m not justifying it. I’m saying that, as a character, raping Cersei is inconsistent with the fact that even his terrible choices have been about protecting Cersei and his kids.

      • Tatjana says:

        @Side-Eye, you beautifully said everything. Well done-

      • GeeMoney says:

        @Side-eye

        I don’t give a DAMN about how well you justify Jaime’s good deeds… he still tried to MURDER a little kid. It doesn’t matter why he did it (for his own selfish reasons, nonetheless)… he still did it.

        I swear, the amount of people on this site defending men trying to kill little children for the sake of “love” today is utterly RIDICULOUS.

      • Side-Eye says:

        @Geemoney,Good, father of Christ. Do you have a comprehension issue? I never ONCE said his actions involving Bran were justified, merely clarified his reasons as something more than just carnal lust for his sister, a consensual relationship that people somehow equate with rape and murder. Not a single time did I say it was ok what he did to Bran…like–it’s almost scary how low your level of understanding for simple sentence structure has to be for you to somehow get that out of what I said. All I did was explain why his actions pertaining to his RAPE OF HIS SISTER IN THE SHOW was grossly out of character. All I did was explain why it didn’t make sense and you somehow contorted this into me defending his actions(explanation doesn’t equal defense which is something someone with even the most basic common sense could understand)? If you’re not even going to try and understand, why bother responding at all, jesus what’s wrong with you?

      • Marieeeee says:

        In the big picture, Jaime pushed Bran out the window for a much wider-reaching reason than just keeping the secret of sleeping with Cersei. If word got out they were having sex, it would likely bring about question of Cercei’s kids paternity… Who are supposedly King Robert’s, making them heir to his throne… If it was revealed that they aren’t the king’s kids then they have no right to the throne, and thus ending the Lannister master plot to rule the universe! It’s the arguably biggest secret/problem in the series really, and got two men killed and a boy pushed out a window. Still a terrible thing for Jaime to have done to Bran, but it was really about a lot more than the two of them and their “love”

      • Sarcastic Vegetable says:

        So let’s say all of you are hanging out somewhere with your family and run across someone – we’ll say a kid – with a gun who threatens the life of everyone in your family. Your choice is to either off the kid so that your family lives, or let him do his thing and everyone you love dies. Come on now, how many of you WOULDN’T off the kid? That’s basically the choice Jamie had to make. Either way completely sucks, but do you all think choosing to save your your family over some random kid make you a sh*tty person with no redeeming characteristics whatsoever? That’s what I’m getting from this thread.

      • Bluebear says:

        Exactly! This man is a killer, a incestuous prick, and all the women are up in arms because the pretty Jamie is ruined. Good God people. He wasn’t a good man to begin with!

    • msw says:

      Jaime has been in a hole all along,I’ve never really understood why fans of the books start to think he is a good character around book 3. He is still in an a hole, except he makes more of an effort to justify his actions.

    • almondey says:

      @Side-eye- thank you. you pretty much win this whole article for me. took the words right out of my fingers!

    • Dommeh Dearest says:

      If you read R.R. Martin’s response on his blog you’ll find that he didn’t have any power in what they are doing on the show. In the book Cersei consents but Jaime also hasn’t been back with his family like he has in the show. He tried diplomatically say ‘I didn’t write this rape scene’ without coming out and throwing the writers of the show under the bus. This changed Jamie’s character a whole bunch as far as the show goes. I was pretty disappointed. He saved the woman (I can’t remember her name off the top of my head) from a vicious gang rape last season and in the books he’s established that rape isn’t something he does due to his mortal code. Pushing Bran from the window was him protecting himself and his family, they all (including the three kids) would have been executed. So he’s above rape but not killing a child in the books. The show is making some bad decisions.

    • Lucky says:

      Cersei was absolutely not coerced into a relationship with her twin! Where did that possibly come from? I’m totally baffled by that comment

      • taxi says:

        Agree with Lucky. Cersei is just as culpable as Jaime. She would have easily tossed Bran out the window herself. She’s always been quite evil & adored Joffrey beyond reason. Her grief next to Joffrey’s body was the reason she initially protested Jaime’s lust-of-the-moment, but she stopped protesting & got into it, with Joffrey’s father.

    • msw says:

      Didn’t Jaime stand by while the king raped people?

  3. Venus says:

    I am so sick of rape being treated like a cool plot point.

  4. ds says:

    I might be a minority here, but this is just a costumed soap opera right now. All the chit chat, the reactions… everything.

  5. Ashley says:

    Yea Cersei definitely coerced Jaime when they were younger. But i’m sad that they made Jaime rapey but like GRRM said it is a butterfly effect and this is its biggest victim.

    • epiphany says:

      I almost get the feeling GRRM is rewriting the show based on readers/viewers reactions and opinions to what may be coming in the future, like he’s sitting there thinking, ‘oh, you all think you have this figured out, do you?. Wait till you see what I do next!’

    • Seán says:

      GRRM writes an episode per season. He didn’t write this one though and looking at the post, I think beneath all the courteous “The show is not the books” spiel, I don’t think he’s entirely happy with the way that scene was carried out on the show either.

      I too, really hated the way the show pulled off that scene even though I don’t think the sun shines out of Jaime’s arse. He still paralysed a child and screwed his sister so the “Draco in Leather Pants” misunderstood Jaime that some book readers/show viewers see is not the one I see. That said, he did save Brienne from rape in the show so it’s out-of-character for him to go ahead and do that on the show to his own sister.

      The only reason why I think the show went that way is because the showrunners don’t seem to trust the audience’s intelligence (a ridiculous thing considering the density of Game of Thrones). First, they changed Theon’s sister’s name from Asha to Yara so we won’t get her mixed up with the wildling, Osha. Now they can’t just let Jaime and Cersei’s disturbing relationship speak for itself. They have to point a big neon sign at the dynamic saying “Incest is bad, mmkay? See how unhealthy and hateful Jaime and Cersei are because of this relationship? See how incest turns Jaime into A RAPIST!” Eh, I think the vast majority of the audience would find the idea of twins screwing one another in a church next to the corpse of their inbred son disturbing enough without adding unnecessary rape to the scene.

      I’ve seen some people argue that the scene doesn’t play out that differently from the books. In the books, Jaime has this carnal desire for Cersei and while she initially rejects him as she does in the show, she eventually gives in and goes for it. In the show, Cersei was kissing Jaime back but the scene cuts away with Jaime forcing himself inside of Cersei saying “I don’t care” while she’s sobbing and telling him to stop. If they had cut away with Cersei giving in and going for it, it wouldn’t have left such a sour taste in peoples’ mouths. Another defender of that scene told me that Jaime and Cersei just have an unhealthy dynamic and Cersei plays the victim and fights off Jaime as some of kind of twisted foreplay. I understand that kind of dynamic does exist in some relationships and some women do act like that but that does just perpetuate rape culture in the way that when a woman refuses, she’s really just playing hard to get. It was a badly staged scene and probably made to seem edgy so I’m glad they’re getting backlash. This was one scene where they should have just stuck to how it was done in the book and not tried to put their own twist on it. Shame because I really enjoyed the rest of the episode immensely and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau and Lena Headey do such great work as Jaime and Cersei.

      P.S. On the Dany and Drogo note, I didn’t really have a problem with how that was carried out on the show in the first episode. It differs from the source in that Dany and Drogo have a gentle first night as compared to the straight up rape on the show but in the next chapter, we then read how Drogo takes Dany from behind every night and she Stockholm Syndrome’s that she’s glad he does that because then he won’t see the tears streaming down her face. Book and show then align once again with Dany learning how to assert herself in the bedroom and making the worst out of a bad situation.

    • Seán says:

      Thanks, Mingy! Glad I was helpful.

  6. Samtha says:

    It’s been a long time since I read any of the books, but isn’t rape something that Jaime is explicitly against in them? It felt like a real betrayal of his character. I don’t know where they go with him from this point.

    • original kay says:

      No, it was the same inthe books. He finds Cersei, they make out, she says no, he persists, she says “hurry hurry”, has sex with him, then they argue and she kicks him out.

      • Bridget says:

        Um, no it is definitely not the same in the books. It was a gratuitous change by the show.

      • Samtha says:

        She was a very active participant in the scene in the book. Someone posted a scan of the scene elsewhere, and there’s just no question.

        What I meant in my original comment wasn’t about this scene in particular, but about his personality in the book–I seem to remember that he had a specific problem with women being raped. That it was explicitly mentioned he had a problem with it. But I could be misremembering.

      • original kay says:

        yes, sorry, poorly worded on my part.

        I meant to convey that he IS against rape in the books. That what happens in the books is the same as his being against rape.

      • epiphany says:

        It was clearly NOT rape in the book. She told him to hurry, because she was horny, not because she wanted it over and done with.

      • L says:

        I always interpreted the book as being a rape scene, and I think the writers did as well. (although the backtracking of ‘it becomes consensual at the end’ they had is total BS) All of that ‘hurry hurry’ stuff from the book is taken out of context, people have to remember that the entire section is written from Jaime’s POV. An outsider would be able to see that it was rape, and the thoughts were always about Jaime trying to relieve himself of guilt. Even Martin says this in his statement:

        “Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime’s POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external.”

      • Samtha says:

        @L, here’s the exact passage from the book:

        “Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.

      • L says:

        But again Samtha-that’s all in Jaime’s head. It’s all from his POV. The author of the book says that those are Jaime’s thoughts-and not necessarily what actually happened.

  7. Gwen says:

    I am SO angry about them changing that scene! Not just because I rather like Jaime’s story in the books but also because – again, again, again, again – a woman becomes a victim on screen FOR ENTERTAINMENT. It’s so sick and in this case also totally unnecessary. BOOO GoT TPTB, BOOO!

  8. GeeMoney says:

    People are upset with the “change” in Jaime… but this is still a man who slept with his sister, murdered his own cousin and pushed Bran Stark out of a window! He’s no saint! It’s interesting how everyone can be surprised that he’s being bad now… he’s never really been good to begin with!

    I know he’s supposed to turn his life around soon… but perhaps we haven’t gotten to that part in the show yet. Maybe everyone should just simmer down a bit.

  9. QQ says:

    Yeah me and my dorky friends were put off by how they drastically changed the vibe for that scene/situation, besides the fact that in the books Cersei is as into it as he is, every time we see them couple up outside of his recollections (i.e. Even at Winterfell) they play the cat and Mouse “no no baby this is wrong thing” for a little while, is their “thing” and I think it was super poorly done in the show and surely triggery for some viewers.

    Outside of that:

    Arya: Accomplished Liar Badge Archievement Unlocked

    Tywin: Cockblocking a Dornish sexy good old Time! :( and Teaching a new Padwan (much bigger than in the books Tommen!)

    Daario Naharis: I Still hate this change of character and the completely different styling to boot! , but Kill of The Week

    Tyrion and Pod: In Jail, about to make me really cry, Pod’s Loyalty..my heart!

    Daenerys: EVERYTHING! For her Slaves-Kill the Masters speech, Delivered in classic Mereenese (I think the linguist dis not go Ugly enough creating This Tongue, as is super reviled in the books as being ugly and complicated!)

    The Thenns: THE WORST

    Also aside: after the made changes to the map in the intro I find myself anxiously awaiting any new topographical changes!

    P.p.s: My Boyfriend from Narnia made me a fucking Easter basket with Kid you not a House Stark sigil mug and a Drogon Plush toy Dragon’s Egg!! (I almost shit a Brick)

    • mimif says:

      I think I’m just going to stop reading now. That last paragraph is EVERYTHING. :D

    • Shijel says:

      I’m so surprised that people view Daenerys’ advancement as some sort of show of badassery that’s to be cheered for. For all her speeches and promises, isn’t her story a deconstruction of the ‘saviour’?
      Her politics and and war strategy are written to fail once the number of her followers grows too big, too diverse and she’ll find that she has very few capable subordinates to whom she could assign lower levels of rule. She has virtually no allies, no clue as to how to rule an empire (they groomed Viserys for ruling, not Daenerys). For what do slaves who have been such for centuries, know about governing? Or what does SHE know about ruling and politics aside from what she’ll have to learn the hard way once she settles in Meereen?
      She applies her own concept of right and wrong to cultures that are very old and thriving and tears them apart. What she’s left now is a massive herd of helpless people who are introduced a way of life they’ve never ever experienced. By the end of the last published book her dragons have also gotten out of her control.

      Dany’s a conqueror, but easily the least unfit person to rule an empire. Which is why the ‘awesomeness’ of her speeches sounds so hollow. By taking what she considers hers with fire and death she’ll forge the weapon that’ll be her own undoing. Let alone the fact that should she ever make a move on Westeros, she’ll be taking over lands of whose culture and inner workings, whose resources and people she knows nothing about.

      Oh and the actress, I think she’s sweet and very pretty in real life and I enjoy her interviews but lord what a mediocre to weak actress D:

  10. original kay says:

    It was awful.

    actually, the whole episode was pretty bad. Once again Tyrion was the best part.

    That scene, the Jamie scene, did happen in the books. Cersei said no, but then she welcomed it and him, then kicked him out again. It is not so out of character for Jamie, he is an ass, he has yet to come into his own. In the books, Cersei leads him around, including his joining the King’s Guard to be in King’s Landing with her. He gave up Casterly Rock for her.

  11. Lauren says:

    I hated that scene. I disliked how it was changed from the book scene and don’t understand why something that was consensual had to be made into a rape scene. What I also don’t get is how the director of that scene does not interpret it as a rape but consensual. Nothing about that scene implies that Cersei wanted it and Jaime saying over and over that he does not care makes this fact obvious.

    I am concerned about the sort of narrative the rape will now set up as well. People seem to think on one hand that it is justified because Cersei is a ‘bitch who had it coming’ and also now others will see it as justification for the horrible actions of her character to come. The truth is Cersei has always been the one to manipulate Jaime (it is wrong how she manipulates his love since they were kids) but I don’t want the narrative to not be that a woman should be punished for her sexual behaviours when so many male characters to sexual things and do not have ‘it coming’ or their ‘just deserves’.

    The rape also ruins the character of Jaime because although book Jaime and show Jaime are different in many ways where they do not differ is on the issue of the love the character has for his sister. This is the same man who killed the mad king and was physically disgusted by the rapes he was witnessed to when the mad king raped his wife. This is also the same man who wanted to murder king Robert for raping Cersei. He lost his hand trying to save Brienne from such a fate. I just don’t think it makes sense for his character who abhors this sort of behaviour to then turn around and do something like this to the only woman he has ever truly loved.

    I feel like the show has already muddled up Jaime a lot and have certainly ruined him like they have Stannis. I don’t see how his redemption arc can carry on from here on out.

    • original kay says:

      100%

      Also, for the non book readers, Jamie arrived back in King’s Landing after Joff died. He was not at the wedding.
      The first he sees Cersei, after months apart, is in the Sept. She welcomes him home and it was consensual.

    • Kimmy says:

      I definitely think the rape scene was a little too much, but most of GOT is too much. It was unnecessary, but MAYBE the writers were trying to show how even though Jaime has changed throughout the series, Cersei still brings out the worst in him? Not trying to say she “had it coming” or she “deserved it”. But this is a man who has been trying desperately to get back to his lover and she greets him with hostility and still continues to manipulate and shame him. He just wants her to be happy and he is back. Maybe the writers are saying he’s not quite a good guy yet? I don’t know…just trying to think outside the box. I’ve read the books and there is a significant change in Jaime by the time he gets back to kings landing. Cersei though is still a psychotic mama bear.

      Also the Thenns are truly terrifying. I like that they played this up more so than the books.

      As for Castle Black, I don’t like that they are about to head to Craster’s to kill those guys. I get it, but that didn’t happen in the book. Seems unnecessary since the wildlings are so close.

    • Side-Eye says:

      This anaylsis is absolutely spot-on, Lauren. I hate Cersei and never felt sympathy for her in the books, but the people who say she deserved creep me the hell out. I don’t know why they felt this was necessary or why they keep trying to turn her into this woobified victim, but this has officially made me tune out of the show. IT seems like Beinoff and Weiss care more about shock value and gratuitous violence, than the complex story GRRM was trying to tell.

      • Carnivalbaby says:

        Seeing so many conversations online about that scene between Jamie and Cersei in last weekend’s Game of Thrones. Seriously…who can judge what is normal for two characters having an incestual relationship with one another. And has Jamie really been redeemed until now. I wonder if this is all because of how good looking the actor who plays Jamie is. If he looked like the Hound and Cersei looked liked Brienne would we be having this discussion? It certainly was a rape scene, but do I care enough about the Lannisters to feel morally wounded on their behalf, hell no. With the exception of Tyrion, they all deserve their pain yes. I aint sorry for Cersei or Jamie. Bleh. This is fiction right? We need to stop analyzing everything with our modern eyes and sensibilities about women. Both Jamie and Cersei are extremely warped individuals…have you met their father? How can we really anticipate how Jamie would react to the continued rejection of the only person he felt really understood him? Wouldn’t he want to reassert his power? Wasn’t he grieving too? How can we judge the decisions people make when they are in the throes of grief and rejection and adjusting to being a person who is a shadow of his former self – the man has an iron hand for crying out loud. And isnt this a completely messed up way of doing so that would be par for the course of the characters that we are meeting?

  12. Christo says:

    I take this show for what it is….uncompromising entertainment. There doesn’t appear to be any boundary that it won’t push—however “brave” one may view such boundary-pushing. That being said, I’m not surprised that they wrote the Jamie/Cersei scene as they did, considering they wholesale invented the stabbing scene of Robb’s pregnant wife in the 3rd season’s Red Wedding. That scene in particular still makes me sick to this day. The writers have definitely taken creative liberties with the onscreen adaptation of the books.

  13. Hiddles forever says:

    I’m suddenly happy I never watched GoT now….

  14. mata says:

    I’ve never read the books, so I guess that scene really didn’t stand out to me more than any of the other horrible and cringe-worthy scenes in the show. However, based strictly on the show, I don’t see why it’s assumed that Jaime coerced Cercei when they were children. They’re twins, so it’s not as if he was older. She’s pretty awful and manipulative (ask King Robert) all on her own.

  15. Diane says:

    They lost me in season 2 with the rat eating its way out of the bucket. I find most of the stuff in GOT to be more for shock value than plot. They go too over the top for my taste and I’m a big Dexter fan.

    • Scylla74 says:

      This….
      I also stopped reading the books for the same reason. The whole story is filled with sociapaths, psychopaths and stupid people.
      Also the women are NOT strong. Some are vindictive, that’s all.

      I hate how GOT became the “it-fantasy-book” with that “real” middle-age feel. So not true.
      GRRM is highly overrated. He always uses the same phrases. He likes to draw out especially the violent scenes. I’m also quite sure he doesn’t know how it ends. He is all over the place with his many characters.

    • Anoni Mus says:

      Yeah, I didn’t watch past season 1 for this same reason. Shock value for the sake of shock value. On sunday I was flipping through and I caught just this scene. I knew they were siblings so it was disgusting, and right next to the (admittedly hateful) deceased. I changed the channel.

  16. KatNotNice says:

    Er… Cersei is a mess. She may have resisted a little bit when her brother pushed her to have sex but she actually gave in as she was kissing him back and let it go. She ain’t no victim.

    Anyway GoT lost its appeal since end of season 2, they completely botched up the whole thing. I shall still watch it because well, I still have my observations to make compared with the books.

    • MG says:

      I was hoping someone saw it the way I did. I’m sure this opinion will cause outrage but I didn’t see the scene as rape. I’ve never read the books so I can’t compare. But…she said “this isn’t right” and he said “I don’t care” but she WAS kissing him. I know “no means no” and this scene was definitely on the edge but I think she wanted to have sex with him…maybe not next to their dead son….but. She resisted him before when he first returned because he “left” her…she is trying to punish him but she still wants to get it on with her brother.

      • KatNotNice says:

        Precisely. People are quick to jump into the rape/woman victim outrage but right here the scene showed it very clearly Cersei gave in after an attempt to resist because their dead son was next to them, but she let it go, and not because she was afraid of her brother. She’s been the one leading their very messed up dynamic and could have told him off if she wanted to. Anyway…

  17. Arlene says:

    Wow, everyone so hard on Cercei, a woman who has been forced into practical sexual slavery by her own father more than once. Okay, she’s not exactly a sweetheart, but she’s operating with the only power she has. Also Jaime is a cousin killing, child endangering, incest performing thug, why so surprised by rape?

  18. epiphany says:

    What in the h*ll are they doing to my show?????? This never happened in the books! Jaime and Cersei did in fact have sex in front of their son’s corpse, but it was entirely consensual. Cersei was the one always manipulating Jaime, not the other way around. Jaime was arrogant, but he was honorable. What a betrayal of the character. What did Nikolaj think when he was filming this?
    This is a ridiculous attempt to make Cersei more sympathetic, just as the writers inserted that scene in Season 3 with Cat describing to Talisa how she prayed for Jon Snow to get well when he was a boy stricken with the pox – never happened. Cat would have been thrilled for Jon to die. Jaime would never force himself on any woman. Is it possible this was just a “rough sex” scene, and not actual rape? I’m grasping at straws, but I need some sort of logical explanation!

    • iskra says:

      I don´t think we will ever get one. I am very interested in Bennoif and Wise explanations of what they did here. If they ever decide to talk about it.

      I understand that somethings have to be changed for the show but I don´t get why they have to invent things to make some characters more sympathetic. In the books Cersei is awful beyond any redemption, as a child she pushed that girl into the well and killed her, se purposely miscarriaged Robert´s child (that scene from season one, with her and Catlyn is completely invented) just when i remember her chapters from the Feast for Crows and all the things she did, especially to lady Stokeworth and Senelle…ugh, this Cersei has nothing to do with book Cersei and I hate the fact that they make her a victim in here.

  19. ~Z~ says:

    Well, I think people maybe overreacting….
    I absolutely HATE seeing rapes, but this didn’t scream rape to me at all.
    If she really meant no, I would think she could have fought him off….He only has ONE arm, and his confidence is in the toilet.
    When she grabbed the cloth from the table, I was hoping Joffrey’s body would fall on top of them. That would have been hilarious!

    • Merritt says:

      There is so much rape culture and rape apology going on in this post, I don’t know where to begin.

    • Samtha says:

      Her continually saying no, and it isn’t right, and smacking him/pushing him away didn’t seem like rape to you??

      • Ferris says:

        I think she didn’t want to have sex with Jamie because of Joffery’s death and it was right in front of their dead son. I don’t think she is against sleeping with Jamie, like sleeping with my brother is wrong and all of the sudden Cersei attained morals.

        Cersei and Jamie are horrible, immoral characters. I don’t find Jamie raping her that shocking. ( though watching it was hard.) He did push Bran out the window. I don’t think he or Cersei can be redeemed. They are still interesting characters to watch. So was Tony Soprano, he was immoral as the come.

        I wish the writers would stick to the books. But who knows maybe this change has a purpose.

      • Samtha says:

        She’s obviously not against sleeping with Jaime in general, but she didn’t want to have sex with him in this scene. She said no, she told him it wasn’t right, and she tried to physically push him away. Whether she had sex with him willingly in the past is irrelevant.

    • Sara says:

      Damn, ok. Education on consent, rape, rape culture and the idea of women ‘being able to fight off their attacker if they really don’t want to be raped’. Jesus.

      • ~Z~ says:

        People are really freaking out over my comment…..I meant BECAUSE HE ONLY HAS ONE ARM….And she is no wimp.

      • Size Does Matter says:

        Z, I hear you. People, it is a fictional show with fictional characters based on a work of fiction. These writers, much like GRRM, like to manipulate us and make us talk about their work. I, for one, have never commented anywhere in any way, on any other fictional issues. People are all upset because their champion Jaime, bad boy with a heart of gold, would never do such a thing. He is not real. It’s not like they unsunk the Titanic or unshot JFK. Jaime does what the writers say he does. Just expect more manipulation to come.

        Also, I found the scene ambiguous, much like everything and everyone in GoT. Unlike, for example, the rape scene in The Accused, which I can’t watch. The next Jaime/Cersei scene could open with her climbing out from under him and saying she’s never enjoyed him more than she did next to the corpse of their psychopathic royal offspring, and all of this chatter will have been for nothing.

      • Merritt says:

        @~Z~

        That is promoting rape culture as well as a twisted ableism.

      • ~Z~ says:

        Thank you so much Size Does Matter! ♥ My God, I feel like these people think I’m cheering it on, which is absolutely not the case.
        I totally agree ~ The scenes in The Accused….I could not watch either.
        Makes me absolutely sick. Most scenes of it I cannot and will not watch.

        I’m sorry to anyone who thinks me writing a stupid comment about twisted characters and the way I perceived a certain scene as promoting rape culture.
        It’s sick and disgusting and it will never go away. But I do not think I am promoting it in any way. And I do think accusing me of it IS overreacting. And again, I am truly sorry if you have a personal reason to be overreacting….I would probably do the same if it had ever happened to me. I do consider myself VERY lucky to have not had to deal with anything like that.

  20. Merritt says:

    This is one of the reasons I don’t watch this show. I have no desire to see sexual violence framed as entertainment.

    • Tig says:

      Amen! Occasionally I read posts bec it’s such a “thing”, but usually end up puzzled as to why it’s got the following it has. And no, I haven’t read the books, and don’t plan to start.

      It just seems like every HBO, Showtime, Starz series had to have blood soaked scenes and violence against women. Seriously, where do they go from here? And that’s rhetorical- pls don’t tell me!

    • Chris says:

      I feel that way about any kind of violence. Yes, we should be upset about watching rape–but what about all the other violence as entertainment? Why just rape? As a society I think we are far too comfortable watching gruesome, sick, behavior on television. I don’t watch GoT, Breaking Bad, etc. On one hand I know I’m missing out on captivating drama, but on the other hand I just can’t stomach the violence.

      • Merritt says:

        The thing is with rape is that how it is framed in pop culture affects the subconscious. Just look at various comments dismissing it: “she could have fought him off”, “she is a terrible person anyway”, “it didn’t look like rape to me (despite her apparently saying no repeatedly”, etc.

        These are all comments that are used everyday towards rape survivors. This is why rape cases can be hard to convict.

        Other types of violence in entertainment can be different depending on context. I’m a huge fan of “Buffy”, and granted the violence on that show was rather light compared to a lot of the stuff out now. But there is an obvious separation from reality when it comes to beating up and staking a vampire.

        Historical violence can also have an important place in film and television. “Saving Private Ryan”, “Band of Brothers” or “Gettysburg” I know going into that they depict a very violent time and very violent wars. Real people went through these events, and it would be intellectually dishonest to portray them in any other way.

    • Tiffany27 says:

      @Merritt

      THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!
      It’s quite disturbing to see the “it doesn’t look like rape to me” and “she could have fought him off”
      As if no only means no when you say it loudly?

      • kim says:

        “As if no only means no when you say it loudly?”

        No, its just that we are more than our words.

        No matter how much you try to shame me for not seeing it how you do (i.e. because I do not see rape I am participating in the “rape culture” and I have been manipulated by the sadistic patriarchy, hell perhaps I am AS BAD as the perpetrators) and suggest that seeing what I see makes me AS culpable of something as if I had perpetrated it myself, I will still say that I saw it how I saw it. And what she said, BTW, was “it’s not right”

  21. minxx says:

    To me the scene was shocking and disgusting because of the place but I did not see it as a rape . The two characters are pretty demoralized, their relationship is twisted and sick with more hate than love at the moment. I read the book and in the book the scene made more sense. In the movie it was crudely handled, Jamie did not have to be violent – that was bizarre and unnecessary. To be honest, the scenes in the brothel are a bit much, there is really no need to be so graphic, IMO.

  22. original kay says:

    I think people need to stop trying to find morals and values in the show and the books.

    Westros is a mess. It’s written that way. Some people are evil, some victims of circumstance, but the entire Kingdom is a mess, and it can’t be pointed back to one person.

    The morals and values that govern our society don’t apply here. It’s not a series for the ages, folks, it’s pure entertainment.

    • Kelly says:

      “Westros is a mess. It’s written that way. Some people are evil, some victims of circumstance, but the entire Kingdom is a mess, and it can’t be pointed back to one person.”

      LOL, actually, that’s real life too, welcome to the world as it really is.

    • Tatjana says:

      Yes! Among many reasons that made ASOIF so special when it came out was the fact that GRRM didn’t give characters who lived in medieval times the moral code of today.

      • original kay says:

        they live by no moral code.

        some here are up in arms about cersei being raped. I hope they said the same as Sansa had the crap beaten out of her by grown men week after week, or when Joff whipped the woman tyrion sent for him to lose his virginity with… or the whorehouses Littlefinger run… like the time he basically told the girl he would kill her if she didn’t smile and go make him money.

        this is my point. all these posts and posts about cersei being raped, and the entire show and books are without values and morals and women are used and abused.

        this is hardly a single event for this series. so like, what’s the outrage for? this is nothing new for this series.

      • Eleanor Zissou says:

        I think the whole outrage is how the books people love are being butchered in the series just for schock value.
        films often stray from books, but the gist stays the same. Here, everything is wrong.

  23. Godwina says:

    Judging a movie or tv show based on how faithful it is to a book–a whole other medium–is a fool’s errand. It never ceases to amaze me that we fall for the idea, over and over, that showrunners or film directors have a responsibility to somehow “teach” the book. Poppycock. A movie or show doesn’t succeed or fail based on faithfulness to its literary source. It succeeds or fails on its own merits, using its own dynamic and internal elements inherent to its own medium. That’s, like, Criticism 101.

    But even if we judge Jamie’s actions internal only to the show itself (forget the books entirely), raping Cersei does seem a bit of a swerve… Very curious.

    • ORLY says:

      Maybe something broke in Jaime with Cersei’s constant rejection? He likely feels less a man; being unable to fight with his left arm. To have her constantly tell him how he has changed and that he came back too late etc, then witnessing the death of his son. Maybe they’re going in that direction.
      Or…perhaps he just needed to feel powerful and in control.

  24. Kelly says:

    People do know that “TV show” does not mean “actors hired to read your beloved book in front of the camera”?
    I mean people know the difference, right? Between book and TV?
    Because it seems that many expect a TV show to be a literal translation of a book. Or the characters from the book to be copy-pasted onto the screen.
    Why do people think like that?
    This is Benioff and Weiss’s story. GRRM collaborates and writes the changes too. They’re creating their own thing. This is what it means to be BASED on something, not transferred literally.

    • Side-Eye says:

      I get so tired of this argument. Nobody is expecting it to be exactly the same as the books. That’s impossible, damn near. We do expect a faithful enough adaptation that is maybe not fully in line with the novels, but still captures the overall essence of what made the books great without absurd changes to the characters that simply cannot be justified and are problematic in their execution besides. It’s the same thing that happened with WWZ–a complete bastardization of characters and elements of the plot. I mean, look at Season One of this show. Not a “literal” translation of the books, but still very, very good. And the thing is, I wouldn’t even be so upset at the changes if the show was at least still written well. As it is, the writing of this show has gotten *bad*. The forced exposition(something that should’ve been done much, much earlier) with Oberyn explaining his sister’s death, the Dontos plotline that was for some reason just now recalled by them, them playing musical marriage chairs with Loras, the severe lack of subtlety on Littlefinger’s part that makes everyone look stupid, and the absurd need for titties or ass in darn near every shot involving important plot details–it’s just..,as a fan, I’m disappointed.

      • GeeMoney says:

        The biggest problem with your argument is your expectation of how this show should go. GRRM isn’t necessarily writing this show – 2 other people with different thoughts and interpretations are. So of course, there are going to be some differences, especially since it’s being made for a completely different medium. I think if you sat back and just enjoyed the show for what it is and perhaps waited to see where the writers are going with these new ideas they’ve incorporated into it, you might be surprised and like it.

        And the writing of this show has not suffered – it’s a well written show. And I think the writers do a good job every episode.

  25. lizzy says:

    Aren’t jaime and cersai twins?

  26. GlimmerBunny says:

    I’m furious about the change of the scene from consensual sex to rape. Jaime and Cersei are my favorite characters in GoT. The sept sex scene was probably my favorite chapter in the whole book series. And they butchered it COMPLETELY. I don’t even recognize the character of Jaime from the books anymore (first killing his cousin and now the rape!) I’m seriously so disappointed, I’ve been posting about it on GoT message boards all day.

    On a more positive note, I was SO happy with the Sansa/Lord Baelish scene, which was EXACTLY like I imagined in the books. And Tywin’s scenes with Tommen and Oberyn were perfection as well.

  27. TG says:

    I have zero outrage for the rape scene. It was the least disturbing event of GOT for me. Maybe it is because I hate Cercei and I feel bad for Jaime. I can’t stand the Hound now that he stole from that farmer. This episode was boring for me and I haven’t even seen the last 10 mins not did I obsessively read a the recaps and comments as I usually do.

  28. sheri says:

    It’s two siblings going at it. It’s disturbing no matter how or what is portrayed.

  29. db says:

    Just fyi, George RR Martin has posted a comment on last nights scene. It’s on his personal blog, in the comments section

  30. Pumpkin Pie says:

    Do posters here refer to Daenerys when they say Dany? Daenerys is a unique name, Dany is not. Maybe you mean it in an affectionate way, but anyway. GRRM thought of this really amazing name – sorry I haven’t read the books and I don’t know if he refers to Daenarys as Dany. Sorry Dany s out there.
    I watch the show and to be honest I just feel like reading the books and quit watching the show. But the show is spectacular in some ways, really good actors and performances.

  31. Whatwhatnot says:

    This is why I hate reading books and watching their corresponding shows at the same time. I started off reading GOT and put it down during the show’s first three seasons ( I hav esince gone back to read the beginning of the book for clues) because much how they did with True Blood, Walking Dead etc, producers always change scenes, personalities, add characters, etc. I enjoy the show for what it is, especially knowing it’s on HBO I know what to expect as far as how far they may take things.

  32. Sumeria says:

    OK, so before you flame me, let me say that in real life, rape is never justified. Regardless of how crazy a person is, everyone is responsible for their own actions.
    Now let’s talk the fantasy of television. What I saw was a woman trying to manipulate one brother into killing another and using the promise of sex as a lure. To me, Jamie’s declaration of her as a “bitch” was the moment he clued into what her game was. I am disgusted by Jamie, not because he forced her, but rather because she bent over and showed him her ass, metaphorically, and he still wants her. As for rape, I’ll call it rape when she does. The Cercei we have been sold does not allow herself to be victimised. If she felt violated, she would have gotten up plotting revenge. Instead, I get the feeling she sees this as proof of her power over him.
    As for the writing itself, I do not compare the books to the show – I gave up on the books after the fourth one. What I look for is an integral world, and given the context of the show, this scene was very much in keeping with the world they have created. Did I like it? NO; I don’t think we are meant to like or enjoy it. I think instead we are supposed to take satisfaction that we now live in a world where a woman can take power from somewhere other than between their legs. If you are uncomfortable with this depiction of women, I suggest you avoid historical fiction.

  33. Camelia says:

    What really bugs me here is that many of the same watchers and fans who are outraged by this scene actually ship and support Daenerys/Drogo. I get how this scene can be branded as rape and it was definitely gratuitous, but as far as I’m concerned, showing a fifteen-something girl being repeatedly raped by the man she was forcibly married to, and then having her fall in love with her “husband” to the point that she’s ready to sacrifice her child to revive him … yope, that storyline was the most degrading towards women in the show, and don’t even start with the ” but Drogo treated her good afterwards ” or the ” she discovered her real value thanks to her couple with Drogo ” bulls*** I read everywhere. I’m still shocked that it didn’t seem to bug all those who are going commando on the whole Jaime/Cersei thing now. Or the fact that they created a whole new character in the show (Ros) who had no other use than being raped, tortured and gruesomely killed. I’m just saying that I find it kind of weird that people are only now realizing how misogynistic and disgusting George Martin and the showrunners are.

    • Sara says:

      I had a problem with that too. In the book she isn’t raped by her husband and I found it kind of disturbing that their relationship was portrayed like that.

      BUT I think this happens in movies all the time. Like in The Other Boleyn Girl, in the movie the King rapes Anne Boleyn but that never happened in the book and it didn’t even make sense for the plot. He waits years and years then rapes her right before they get married? It seems like screen writers just like to throw in rape, I think it’s kind of misogynist.

      • Camelia says:

        I’ve read the books and the way Daenerys described it was pretty much rape too, I remember her describing how her thighs hurt after a day riding through the Dothraki Sea and how Khal Drogo would be insensitive to her pain when he claimed for his ” marital rights ” every night. And Henry/Anne in TOBG is far closer to Jaime/Cersei than Dany/Drogo in my opinion, Anne and Henry were both adults and previously ” romantically involved “, she wasn’t some ” pure innocent ” child sold to a mighty lord. And in the movie, their relationship was irremediably damaged afterwards, they were kind of both disgusted with each other. The only thing that can compare to the Daenerys/Drogo relationship is the Lucrezia/Sforza marriage in the TV show The Borgias, except that the Borgias did it 1000000 times better. Lucrezia was also a kid married to a man much older for power purposes, she was also raped and her husband also seemed to grow fond of her, but the show still emphasized on the fact that Lucrezia couldn’t get past how he mistreated her no matter how ” loving ” he became and she eventually managed to become stronger by getting revenge. See, that’s the way women should be portrayed on TV, not as submissive-ready to forget everything for love’s sake.

    • minxx says:

      True, true.. this is how I felt about the wedding night scene – basically a repeated rape of a young girl by her savage husband. Far more disturbing than what happened between essentially equals – Cersei and Jamie. Generally, I feel there is too much sexual abuse in the movie and way too much gratuitous nudity.

    • original kay says:

      yes! exactly.

      this is nothing new for this show. so why all this outrage now?

    • Whatwhatnot says:

      I said something similar above. In the books Dany is 13 when she is pretty much sold off by her brother to marry a very grown Khal Drogo in exchange for access to his army. How is this ok? When we read about tween and teen girls being married off to older men still happening in some countries we are outraged but somehow Dany’s statutory rape is ok because it wasn’t a “forced” or “violent” rape and she is submissive?

      • epiphany says:

        You can’t really use 21 century sensibilities to judge marriage customs from the Middle Ages, and GoT is basically set in a medieval parallel universe. Childhood, as we know it, didn’t exist. A girl was considered a woman when she began menstruating. If one could produce children, one was no longer a child. So, girls of 13 or 14 were routinely married off to older men. It was not considered shocking, and the girls themselves would have expected this to be their fate. The girls would have been more concerned about making an honorable marriage than any age discrepancy with their husbands.

      • Moore says:

        I don’t believe child rape is ok. Even if a sick culture accepts it.

  34. Sara says:

    What’s really funny is that in the books Jamie’s character is manipulated and their sexual relationship is instigated by his sister, who uses sex to control him. I see the show taking this a different direction, where Jamie is the one in control and I really wonder how it’s going to play out.

    When reading Game of Thrones most people start out hating Jamie but later as his character get chapters in his POV he becomes sympathetic and likable. The show would be more interesting if the plot didn’t follow the books exactly because people who read them will already know everything that’s going to happen. Ugh, I just want the rest of the books to come out. I like the show, but I like the books better.

    • Whatwhatnot says:

      And that’s the catch. We hear these story’s from specific characters point of view. Depending on who you talk to, Lyanna was kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar, because we are hearing Roberts point of view. Even though a man of honor like Barristan Selmy claims Rhaegar actually loved Lyanna and two episodes ago in the show Oberyn Martell says that Rhaegar ran away with another woman, not kidnapped her. Ned never actually speaks ill of Rhaegar either. Same thing with listening to Jaime’s POV on himself. Of course he will speak of himself more favorably

      • Tatjana says:

        But we also see Jaime from Brienne’s POV, and from Cersei’s too. And Cersei managed to stay a horrible bitch even in her own POV.

      • megsie says:

        Because Cersei IS, objectively, a horrible bitch. She knows it, we know it, every character in the show knows it. Referring to a Sansa Stark POV chapter, Martin observed that Sansa was an “unreliable witness” ie she believes and relates that the Hound kissed her when in fact he did not. Everything we read should be considered in that light.

  35. Jessie says:

    In the books, Jaime and Cersei’s relationship is consensual — all the time. From the start to their reunification in King’s Landing. He never raped her.

    Jaime is not a good man, for all that show watchers seem to have forgotten since season one. He tried to murder a child because he saw a Lannister secret. Jaime may have been on the path to some sort of redemption by his journey with Brienne, but he is still a very flawed man.

  36. Aly says:

    On a brighter note, Oberyn Martell is shaping up to be the best character on the show (besides Tyrion) and Pedro pascal plays him perfectly!

  37. phlyfiremama says:

    What GRRM said in response: “This is off topic here. This is the section for comments about Junot Diaz and Anne Perry and the Cocteau’s author program. Since a lot of people have been emailing me about this, however, I will reply… but please, take any further discussion of the show to one of the myriad on-line forums devoted to that. I do not want long detailed dissections and debates about the TV series here on my blog. As for your question… I think the “butterfly effect” that I have spoken of so often was at work here. In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey’s death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her. The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other’s company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that’s just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection. Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime’s POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don’t know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing. If the show had retained some of Cersei’s dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression — but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline. That’s really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing… but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons. Now, if you please, I’d appreciate it if we could get back to Junot Diaz and Anne Perry and the subjects of the original post.”

  38. JustSaying says:

    This scene made me consider how this incestual relationship between the siblings came about. At some point Jaime likely coerced Cersei, probably when she was very young. — Why is it likely that their incestual relationship began by Jaime coercing Cersei? Have you read these books? Cersei is not a character likely to be “coered” into anything, even from a very young age. I’m specifically thinking of the story another character tells of meeting the Lanister children, and how Cersei was torturing Tyrion by twisting his genitals. If I remember correctly, Jamie even told her to stop and she wouldn’t stop until SHE wanted to stop.

  39. cro-girl says:

    The way I took it – She was not above having sex with her brother, she was put off by his severed hand touching her because she’s pissed at him for “abandoning” her. Clearly he never did but she’s Cersei and thinks what she wants. She turned him down a few times already since he returned to Kings Landing, which was a surprise to him because before he left they were boinking pretty regularly… just ask Bran. He had enough of her snotty attitude and decided to have her there, she resisted and I saw her kiss him passionately between resisting. The best she could come up with on why they shouldnt was “because its wrong.” As if she ever cared about that before. Not because their son conceived in incest is dead behind them. Not because they’re in a religious place. Not because anyone could see. She picked the flimsiest excuse.

    No rape happened. She resisted because she was angry at him for abandoning her, but she was participating in the act.

    Am I far off?!

  40. Ari says:

    Meh who cares about that scene. My absolute FAVORITE part after finally watching last night was when khaleesi threw the remains of chains and collars over the wall to show the other slaves they COULD be free – that was amazing to me and awesome!

  41. Jill says:

    She wanted it to happen, as evidenced by how she kissed him. She just didn’t want it there. ALSO. Can everybody just calm down about how upsetting this scene was in the show? In the book, identical twins have sex next to the body of their dead son. Somebody please explain to me how that is ANY LESS DISTURBING. A man. Had sex. With his sister. Next to a rotting corpse. Of their dead son. I don’t think it really matters if it was consensual or not at that point does it? Does it?