I have mixed feelings about Chloe Moretz. Like, I think she’s genuinely talented, even underrated as a dramatic and comedic actress. But then she does things like this. Chloe entered the fray in a big way last week when she became one of the celebrities criticizing Kim Kardashian’s nude selfie. I sort of missed Chloe’s initial tweet about it, which was directed at Kim. Chloe wrote: “I truly hope you realize how important setting goals are for young women, teaching them we have so much more to offer than just our bodies.” When she was criticized by her Twitter followers for “slut-shaming” Kim, Chloe wrote: “There’s a huge difference in respecting the platform that you’re given as a celebrity and ‘slut shaming’ something I never have done and would never do.” Except that she actually was body-policing Kim to some extent. Kim clapped back at Chloe pretty hard, and Chloe ended up spending a few days retweeting people who agreed with her (Pink, random followers) and throwing down more shade at Kim.
Chloe, as it turns out, has been outspoken in her feminism. For her, feminism means that she should not take on heavily sexualized roles, and as we discovered last week and in this interview, it also means that she side-eyes women who make the choice to post nude selfies, sexualize themselves, or have any kind of sexual agency that Chloe does not personally approve of. Chloe sat down with Elle Magazine for a chat about other stuff, and Elle asked her about the Kim Kardashian incident:
Elle: Speaking of your social platform, what compelled you to respond to Kim Kardashian’s nude photo? What misunderstandings surrounding slut-shaming do you think exist?
Chloe: All I’ll say is that I think a lot of things can be misconstrued in a lot of ways. And I think if people open their minds more, and they try to look deeper into something than just something that is a very big, hot, fiery button to hide behind…I think if people looked into something bigger that I was trying to speak upon, they wouldn’t be so easy to fire back silly, miscellaneous things.
What would you say to young women trying to navigate the sometimes treacherous waters of social media?
Depict yourself adequately as what you want to be seen as. Don’t front, don’t put something out there that you feel isn’t realistic and doesn’t portray who you are. Just be yourself, be you, and don’t be afraid to speak your mind.You’ve been outspoken, especially concerning your career and trying to turn down roles where female characters are sexualized. Why is that important to you?
It’s not even roles where females are sexualized, it’s where they’re overtly sexualized in a masculine, stereotypical [context]. I think that’s more of the thing for me. If they are sexualized, do it in a way in which the character feels they’re being adequately depicted, in a sense. It all depends on the time period of the movie, or the context of the movie. It’s more that I can’t stand [female] characters that are not empowered in a certain way, or at least don’t come to a conclusion at the end of the movie where they find empowerment in themselves. So, for me, it’s just about making choices [so that] I can have a young woman look at the movie and not be negatively influenced.When did you start having conversations about feminism and sexuality?
That all really started when I was about 13—it started internally within my family, and then I saw that with the influence that I have and the career path that I have, maybe I can say what I’m feeling at least, and see if that applies to anyone else’s life. And if it does, maybe it can help them through the situations that I’ve been going through and to shed light onto things that people might not be speaking about as much, because they might be too afraid to.
Wait, she’s saying “slut-shaming” is a “very big, hot, fiery button to hide behind”? No, Chloe. Slut-shaming and body-policing are very real things that happen in every society, at every level of society. She’s only 19 years old and I genuinely believe that she has the time and ability to educate herself on these issues without being so dismissive of legitimate criticism.
Photos courtesy of WENN.
There is nothing empowering about degrading oneself for men or the patriarchy. I identify more with Chloe’s feminism than Amber and Kim’s.
Agreed.
Count me in.
But being naked isn’t degrading. Showing off your body on your own terms isn’t degrading. Having your body exploited by men is degrading. And I think having your sexuality exploited by men is degrading, which is why I don’t believe porn stars who present themselves as feminists but then manufacture a sexuality that is completely characteristic of a man’s (huge comical breasts–if men did not exist, women would not do this to themselves because enormous breasts are about as comfortable and convenient as enormous balls).
But I don’t think nudity is degrading and I don’t care if Kim chooses to post naked pics of herself all the time. At the same time, you can’t tell me Chloe doesn’t have a point. Yes, female autonomy constantly faces erosion–so isn’t one obvious solution to arm women with the tools to fight for that autonomy at every level? That means having an education, and using the power and influence you have to effect change.
You could argue Kim is doing that but equally that she’s doing it in the least effective way. She’s wealthy. She has had so much privilege that she could do so much with and she’s squandered it on banalities that offer little to the world. Kim deserves criticism for the same reason anyone of ample means but little to offer the world deserves criticism. And the way Kim is expressing herself is so easily co-opted for other ends–ones in which women are exploited.
Salinger said it best: educated people aren’t necessarily the smartest people but their words resonate more than clever people with no education because they often have greater capacity to communicate clearly, to record their thoughts and to engage others. That’s not what Kim is doing so I’m not holding her up as some feminist beacon. At the same time, I don’t remotely care that she’s naked on Instagram–doesn’t affect my opinion of her in the slightest.
“And I think having your sexuality exploited by men is degrading, which is why I don’t believe porn stars who present themselves as feminists but then manufacture a sexuality that is completely characteristic of a man’s (huge comical breasts–if men did not exist, women would not do this to themselves …”
I have my own opinions on the matter, which I haven’t felt the need to express here, but I am curious as to how you believe Kim is different from the porn stars you checked in your comment. She has the same fake boobs, the same fake butt…
To me the fact that she is naked isn’t the issue, it is the influence she has on young girls. When I was young the pressure was to have sex, now it is to send naked selfies and allow themselves to be videoed having sex. For some girls, if Kim does it then it it must be the thing to do. I’m sure KK didn’t enjoy having her sex tape put on the internet, whoever was responsible, but that is nothing compared to how a young girl feels. KK can hide away and use her millions to soften the blow, but these girls are horribly exposed and generally have nowhere to run.
Nudity itself is not degrading, but Kim is clearly particpating in a media world which is driven by men’s needs and wishes. How often does Kanye exactly pose naked in front of a mirror?? Everyone is free to do what they want but don’t pretend you’re a feminist if you promote stereotypes and sell your female body to men.
Slut shaming used to refer to calling women sluts who weren’t.
Now all the sluts hide behind it. No. If you act like a slut you are fair game for shame.
@ Melissa
Can you please define what a slut is? I’m 40 and I haven’t figured it out. Is it sleeping with 5 men, 10 men, 20? Is it dressing sexy? Is it having one night stands? Are there male sluts too or is that a woman specific term? Once a slut, are you always a slut? I got tired of having my heart broken by men who acted like they wanted a relationship so they could get in my pants. So I had one night stands for awhile, at least then I knew what the deal was. Plus I worked 50 hours a week so I was too tired to get all dolled up to go out on a date. It was a lot easier to just go to a local bar and get a hook-up. Now I’ve been married going on 3 years. So am I a retired slut? Or still a slut? Please let me know, as your judgement of me is very important to me and I cannot live without knowing if I am a slut or not. Or is slut just a word women use to demean other women in order to try and make themselves look better than “that slut?”
“which is why I don’t believe porn stars who present themselves as feminists but then manufacture a sexuality that is completely characteristic of a man’s (huge comical breasts–if men did not exist, women would not do this to themselves because enormous breasts are about as comfortable and convenient as enormous balls).” Says @greenweenie .
You do know that this would still happen either way, equality works both ways and to say men are the root cause of this ‘whole’ thing is unfair. Women pick apart women all the time and men do the same to men. Even if men didn’t exist women would still be attacking each other the way they are doing now with the whole slut shaming and body policing. Everyone wants to look good and be the best no matter who it brings down as long as they’re the one that is up. That is not a mans fault that is our societies fault. Yes big breast do appeal to men, but men aren’t the only one that looks at them haven’t you or anybody on this thread looked at a females breast or butt and wished without anyone’s influence but your own that you were bigger in those particular areas.
As far as feminism, body policing, and slut-shamming go, I’ve had enough because it’s all become a joke. We don’t need feminism we need equalism because that refers to all life. The slut-shamming stuff and body policing although it does happen it’s not like the people we are talking about in this specific situation don’t deserve it, or better yet, not deserve but have it comming to them. Kim is just attention seeking if this was some else then I might change my opinion given on who the person was (unless it was another attention seeking Kardashian) but this is Kim we are talking about no else and I agree with you on all the other things you said.
Brilliant post Snowflake.
I don’t think women should be shamed for their bodies nor whom they share those bodies with. However, I don’t think posing naked for your followers is empowering AT ALL. You are just completely buying into the idea that your job is to be alluring and decorative to the male gaze.
@Oli: The idea that only women who are modestly minding their own business and not seeking attention should not be body-shamed or slut-shamed and that everybody else ‘has it coming’ is part of the problem.
@melissa – Preach! Today you can hardly say anything without it being called slut shaming. You can preach how it’s your right to post naked selfies, and that’s abolutely true (and it has nothing to do with me), but I’m still going to side eye you for posting it for attention and think you cheap and common. The human form is nothing to be ashamed of, but not everything that can be done should be done. Stop the naked selfies!!!! They serve no purpose.
To degrade means to lower in value. So the only people who say someone is ‘degrading themselves’ by being immodest are the people who base human value on sexual modesty to begin with. And you don’t get to decide what is or isn’t empowering for other people or decide that people can’t be feminists because they choose to be sexy outside of private relationships or show their body. Feminism and modesty are not the same thing.
@Z and Melissa: ‘Slut’ is a derogatory any woman who does anything with her body that another person finds ‘sexually immoral.’ So basically, if you do anything with your body that anyone feels is sexually immoral- which could be anything from premarital sex to wearing revealing clothes to having sex with a certain number of people to posing nude or anything else- you are someone else’s idea of ‘less than’, ‘immoral’, and deserving of disrespect. How is that equality? How is that not dehumanizing people based on sexuality and gender (something we criticize religious people for all the time)?
@Jezza: And while you’re busy labeling other women as cheap and common, there will be other people labeling you as ‘cheap and common’ (talk about objectification’. Does keeping your parts covered make you ‘expensive and rare’?) for having sex with people who aren’t your husband or not living up to their standard of ‘female sexual modesty’ in some other way. I hop
@jellybean – Kim and her mother brokered the deal to have her video put out there for all to see. If she is embarrassed by it then she should have never agreed to have it put out for all to see (and by the way is still making money off it).
Can we please stop attacking other women already… enough is enough!!! If Kim wants to show her naked butt on instagram, she is certainly allowed to do it. While anyone has the right to call her a slut, I have the same right to call that person out for doing so. What gives anyone the right to tell a woman what being a feminist is?
To me, one thing is to be se ll your naked image or your body because you are in need,like Amber did as a stripper at one time, and another to continue selling yourself/your image after you do not need to.
In Kim’s case, more than her sisters’, I despise the way she got her fame.
She might be mortified by her sex tape, but she decided to sell it, and make $$$ for it. Her sisters are little more than instagram models, exception of Kendall, who has benefited for this sad nepotism/social media worshipping we have now.
Kim, to me, is a little less crass than those sex workers that promote themselves on twitter, she is on the level of Blac Chyna, Amber, et al… with the twist that these women were probably poorer when younger, when they had to strip. They modify their bodies to keep themselves in the game.
What is Kim’s excuse? she is rich, she had opportunities the other did not have… and still in that family of hypocrites, the Kardashians dare to slut shame.
Chloe has a pass from me, if KK and her husband at least had some sort of a social conscience, or at least did not slut shame women they do not like. Amber in the case is a much better woman, even if she posts crass videos of herself (to promote herself for hosting gigs, of course, she does it to get jobs, kim gets naked to buy a new albino python purse).
For now, Chloe wins for me.
@Snowflake Thank you.
The slut-shaming is actually more detrimental to women’s rights than a stupid naked selfie. We have to stop judging other women. If Chloe wants to be a role model, good on her. She should be HER idea of strong and confident, to the best of her abilities. The role model she wanted in her own life.
BE the change you wish to see in the world… but stop telling other women that the only version of strong and confident is YOUR version of strong and confident.
Kim pretty much IS a porn star and her husband is constantly rapping about her ass! *SMH*
@Oli, why do you think women feel insecure about their breast size in the first place? It’s one think to get a small implant like Kate Hudson or Nicole Richie to restore your breast to what it was before you had kids. It’s another to inflate your breasts to some ridiculous size…because why? At the very beginning of that train of thought, there was a man.
It’s the same thing with labiaplasties or whatever they’re called. Trends have origins. And sexually, these origins almost always lie within the male gaze–because our sexuality has been located there for centuries, if not millennia. A woman can adopt a trend without a clue about where it came from, but that doesn’t mean her sexuality isn’t being co-opted by men.
+1, Snowflake, really, the vitriol surprises me. As a grown woman, I can’t say I care in the least who is having sex with whom. Am I supposed to be keeping track so I can climb high enough on my imaginary horse? Does the lowest number win?
As an autonomous responsible adult, have sex with whoever you like. Do not care. I care only when your sexual behavior harms people around you, like children, or appears to harm your health. Am baffled as to how people can get so up in arms about what others do. It’s simply not anyone’s business.
@OtakuFairy, I think your first three sentences nailed exactly what I don’t like about this conversation. Modesty is not feminism. Everyone here is so against Kim’s body flaunting because it’s vapid, etc, and I agree to a point–but it doesn’t offend me. I don’t judge her character from her lack of modesty. And if you do, please, go get in line with every other person who has built, supported and carried forward patriarchy to oppress women.
Yes, that’s true that a person can do whatever she wants with her own body, she also must bear the brunt of the criticism for what she does. Like freedom of speech…you might have the right to say whatever you want, but that doesn’t mean no one can respond to it negatively. And I think when your entire worth is based on how much skin you can show, that is really really pathetic. Kim Kardashian is no one, and that fact that she is famous is really an indictment on just what ridiculous sheep the American public is. She and her family are kinda disgusting, and they are complete media whores but then get upset when anyone has a negative reaction to the garbage they put out there. When Kanye West looks like the voice of reason in a family, things are really off. Kris Jenner should be ashamed at the way she has pimped out her children, and Robert Kardashian must be rolling over in his grave.
Chloe’s naked in her Nylon cover. That’s super sexualized and she’s younger than Kim, which makes it pretty skeezy.
Yep
@Melissa….I agree with you 100% and so tired of people using the excuse slut shaming. If it walk like a duck and quack like a duck it’s a f**king duck
@Snowflake: Even though your post was rhetorical, you are as pure as the driven “SNOW!” Our society has never had a hard time throwing around ugly words. Take a listen to Trump. I don’t know if sluts exist. It’s a word we use when angry like the c word to describe women who at the moment seem to act less like the lady our mothers would have hoped for. Sleeping around doesn’t do it, but might get you pregnant or get an std. Stripping doesn’t do it, just helps pay the bills. Posting nudes doesn’t merit the title either. Men get away with more, except the cheaters, women hate the hell out of cheaters for good reason. But rest assured with your husband that you are a good hard working lady who is fed up by some of the nastiness floating around here lately. The dictionary described a slut as a women who has many casual sexual encounters or is somehow related to uncleanliness. For men, it’s described as wow is that dude lucky, three different chicks in a month. LOL……It’s all your state of mind.
I think Chloe has legit arguments here, I think it’s just packaged in an eighteen year old’s attitude. I was much less diplomatic too at her age,, so I get the filtering of her message.. I don’t get Kim being closer to my age and responding the way.. I would have respected her a hell of a lot if she had had an honest exchange with Chloe where she accepted where Chloe is in life and where she is in life as well. Instead she acted immaturely and went for the “you’re not as famous as me” line that is just embarrassing.
Chloe did not engage in slut-shaming or body-policing. Those words are red herrings tossed out to deflect from what she really was saying.
I think we can all agree on one thing: if a kardashian is doing it, it’s probably degrading.
Lets be real, you are totally right. Trying to make this into an argument about how Kim was ever trying to stand up for body positivity or her right to post nude pictures as a way of self-empowerment is offensive to anyone who understands what the Kardashians are selling.
Kim HAS transformed herself into being the closest thing possible to the hyper masculine ideal of female attractiveness. If I did the same thing it would look a lot different, but lets not argue that Kim has worked hard to achieve a look that is all about appealing to an idealized version of beauty and sex appeal that was developed by men and is sold for profit. She totally has the right to do this and I would never say that she does not. But I do think that it is harmful to women, so please don’t try and make it about body positivity on behalf of womankind, um, no!
I really want to understand the other side of this argument, honestly. Because I just do not see it, at all.
No one thinks Kim was trying to stand up for body positivity. She was doing it for attention, we all know that.
@HEYLEE Yup. Totally see where you are coming from and agree with your points.
Yep — Kim posts nude selfies not to feel empowered, she does it to get attention. She doesn’t fight the good fight for women. If she posted a nude selfie of herself post-pregnancy or even flat-out showed what flaws she has allowed to remain, my estimation of her would increase dramatically. But no… she picks what she believes is a flattering photo of her, and to heck with embracing your true physical self. WTF, Kim. I honestly can’t think of a woman I know who would post a naked selfie… i mean, outside of (hoping for) positive feedback, what on earth is the point?
Agree. Chloe is right.
Agreed.
And Chloe is right; terms like body policing and slut shaming are labels which people hide behind to avoid any type of criticism. As a feminist I’m still entitled to an opinion about what I view as degrading, pointless, attention-seeking, or even immoral behaviour. While still acknowledging Kim’s right to portray herself in whichever way she chooses.
Exactly.
….And as feminists we’re entitled to remind you that Your perception of sexual ‘morality’ has been shaped by patriarchy and point out how labeling human beings as ‘degraded’ (lowered in value) based on how many people have seen, fantasized about, or touched their bodies is a form of inequality.
Actually not, my idea of morality is formed by years of self-reflection and represent the standards I have set for myself (I never suggested that Kim or anyone else subscribe to my value system, but I am entitled to express it). I am perfectly capable of standing outside of myself and examining my own reactions and perceptions to ideas and images. I don’t need you to tell me how patriarchy can shape cultural norms; I find it incredibly condescending that you feel that you are only one who may have some insight in the matter. Also, “morality” does not automatically equal patriarchy or repression. My opinion of Kim has nothing to do with how many people have “touched” or “fantasized” about her, it’s based on the fact that her self-worth is entirely tied up in playing into the male fantasy of sexualized, available women. There is nothing empowering about that. Like I stated clearly in my post, it’s her body and she may choose to do with it what she will. However, feminism does not mean supporting every act of overt sexuality without examining its motives (or our own). Should she be shamed or ridiculed? No. Will there be dissenting opinions? HELL YES.
I’m not a slut shamer – I’m just a prude. I’m not holding her to patriarchal values but to general societal values. There are these things called decency laws, which apply to men and women. So she’s ground-breaking and doing something for the advancement of society by posting nude pics in sexual poses? I’d have more respect if she were an actual nudist who was taking a stance on the artificial construct of clothing, but she’s not. It’s about attention and selling sex.
I can honestly say that I feel the same way about men — don’t show me your naked body.
Just my opinion though — she can go on the internet and post naked pics and we can complain and say she’s gross and indecent and avert our eyes.
Well said, Nina!!
I agree-and to her point, I agree that a lot of celebrities (Kim and her photo, Lena Dunham and her…well her entire life, Taylor Swift and her love life) are quick to accuse detractors using real societal problems like slut shaming, because they know we’re living in a hyper-PC world in some circles and it’s easier to throw that out instead of saying “you know what, I just wanted the attention.” Go Chloe.
Wrong place….
I agree also. There is nothing empowering about promoting yourself as a sexual object. Women have been playing that card forever because it was the only one they had. We can move beyond having to get approval based on our sexual appeal to a new ideal, where we can all have real value as human beings apart from our sexuality. Definitely not dependent on our sexuality like Kim kardashian has anchored her her entire sense of self worth.
I absolutely agree with Chloe. The message isn’t really for the women in their 30’s, it’s for the 12-13 year old girls that have Kim and Kylie thrown in their faces at every turn. The Kardashians are poison, because they offer no positivity to the world and only show girls that looks, money, and pleasing men are what matters. Girls these days are more worried about getting a following on instagram than getting an education. We needs the Pinks and the Chloes of the world to tell girls that they are more than just their bodies and what men want to use them for.
For me feminism is about personal choice & agency. It’s women not being pinned into one role chosen for them. Kim, Amber, Chloe- I think it’s all feminism in different flavors. But I don’t understand the uproar at a grown woman showing her body. Who cares? Let’s focus on the real threat to women (rapists, mysoginists, etc). If she wants to walk around naked and another woman doesn’t, so be it.
Choice feminism is a chimera, and impossible until the patriarchy is dismantled. The point of feminism is to dismantle the patriarchy, and until that has been accomplished, the idea that women have a “choice”–within a system that rewards women for practicing male-gaze femininity and punishes a woman’s refusal to do so–is a farce.
Women don’t freely choose to be sexy: they exist somewhere on a continuum that runs from “too sexy” for which they are punished, and “not sexy enough” for which they are also punished. And the continuum is established and policed by the patriarchy and its adherents (including women).
Thank you.
Spot on. I get hate on this site every single time I dare put it out there that sexualizing and objectifying one’s self under the guise of feminism actually holds feminism back. For me, feminism does not mean throwing all morals and integrity out the window in the name of fame and fortune. Having fame and fortune might be empowering and being in control of your destiny are all elements of feminism, but the way in which some women achieve their fame and fortune is not feminist and not a path I want young women to follow. I am more understanding now that some young women who have chosen the path of selling their bodies in some form or other, grew up in an environment where boundaries are blurred, good role models did not exist for them, and they were raised to believe they should get what they can any way they can. Kim was raised by Kris who has encouraged and emboldened her daughters to use their sex appeal to their financial benefit. Nobody is every going to change the way those girls think. Even as they age, chances are, they will still cling to their current beliefs because thinking otherwise would mean they’ve done something wrong and should change their habits, and they aren’t going to do that. So what is left for them but to try to justify their actions and thought processes on the subject. I see it as a form of self-preservation. I feel sorry for them because they are brainwashed and ignorant.
Exactly. Choice feminism carried to these extremes amounts to nothing but bs, because all it does is encourage consumption and male-gaze-oriented sexualisation of (conventionally attractive)women’s bodies…….which is pretty much what the patriarchy wants. Face MASSIVE amounts of pressure to be sexualised and buy stuff, and give in under the impression that that choice is feminist simply because it’s a choice.
@JennniferJustice: Other people doing things with their body that you disapprove of is not ‘abandoning all morals and integrity’, it just means that other people aren’t living up to your moral code. (Which, according to comments you’ve made in the past, includes not only Kim Kardashian for profiting off of and doing something that humans do naturally anyway, but also women who wear revealing clothes, show skin, or have casual sex).
@Teacakes: The reason why feminists even bother defending different women’s choices on these issues is not because we want ourselves or other women to appeal to the male gaze. It’s because we want all people to be free to make their own choices with their bodies on issues like modesty and sex (as long as those choices are consensual) without being discriminated against, abused (in any way), or blamed for other people’s behavior, regardless of gender …….whether it turns males on or not. The male gaze- whether or not some males approve of/get turned on by what the person is doing isn’t the concern.
@Otaku Fairy – those choices aren’t made in a pure and utopian vacuum, though. They are made against the background and context of a whole lot of societal pressures (and can act to magnify those pressures on younger, more impressionable people), and ignoring that would be disingenuous.
And just because something is a choice, doesn’t mean it is automatically immune from all criticism simply because the one making the choice was a woman.
Choices aren’t made in a vacuum but there is definitely a continuum of freedom and I am all for freedoms continuing. Naomi Wolf wrote the Beauty Myth but she still wears makeup and I don’t question her for that.
I love discussing and thinking about the pressures & the whys women do what they do but not punishing or looking down upon women for doing something differently then I would.
If feminists start saying that women who want to be sexy aren’t feminists then we are going to lose a lot of numbers and it’s a slippery slope.
Team Chloe!
@Melissa Wow, crawl out from under your rock, please. The fact that you can even refer to women as ‘sluts’ is so messed up. Define a slut? A woman who likes sex? A prostitute? A stripper? Tired of people being ‘labeled’ and having to take it lying down. Don’t pardon the pun. So people like you actually exist.
As do I.
This kid speaks the truth. I think everyone gets their panties in a bunch saying “oh we shouldn’t slut shame” and its like…what? KK is a mother of 2, probably feeling fat as shit while she sits in her house, waist training and trying to sip green juice through a straw so she can lose weight and get naked again for real and then not lose relevance to her much younger, much prettier, much skinnier sisters…the woman is posting old ass naked pics of herself in the hope people wont forget her glory days! People, wake up and see it for what it is, a desperate attempt to stay relevant by posting pictures of herself naked. THIS is not feminism! Duh.
Completely agree! Her comments regarding the way women are sexualized in films was perfect. It isn’t about a female character showing her sexuality, it is almost ALWAYS about the female’s sexuality and how it affects the male in some way.
Me too!!
Totally agree with you. I agree with Chloe on this. I think as a society, we’ve lost our ever-loving minds. Strange how everyone things we’ve “evolved” and are “educated” when you can’t say the sky is blue, because..the sky ‘identifies’ as purple, or how dare you put labels on the sky, or judge it. Women have worked for decades to get beyond being seen as bodies whose only purpose is to titillate men. If women like KK and Beyonce want to destroy that work, fine! We still have some remnant of freedom of speech in this country. But other women also have the right to criticize them.
I am 100% percent with you.
Feeling comfortable in and proud about your own body is empowering (see that photograph of Leo DiCaprio’s mother showing some arm pit hair while joyfully holding her baby).
Displaying your manufactured-to-male specifications photoshopped to hell and high leather plastic body is not empowering. It DIS-empowers ALL women. Kim and her team SHOULD be shamed for that as much as any other sex trafficker.
Totally agree!
I’m not reading this the same way at all and I agree with Chloe. Her original statement isn’t body policing. She’s trying to say that she wants young women to know they have more to offer.
I didn’t think her original statement was body policing at all either.
I agree. Kim K’s original picture had nothing to do with empowerment and being comfortable in her own skin. She posted that picture because that’s her job. Her sexuality is all she has to offer the world. It has been that way since that family became a thing. And she hid behind the “slut-shaming” thing because that’s all some women have to hear to come to her rescue.
I get the whole “let her do her” thing, but why is that acceptable? Why is that what is available for young girls looking up to? Instagram has become a plethora of a**shots, models, and “fitness” gurus all wearing the smallest article of clothing for a “come up.” And it’s constantly given a pass because… feminism? It has become less of a powerful movement and more of a word to hide behind when someone calls you out on your bs.
Count me in, I too didn’t think Chloe’s tweet had anything to do with body policing. I swear some of these women are only just started to use terms like “feminism” and “empowerment” and only because it’s gotten trendy in the last two years or so. They throw these words around to justify just about anything they do.
Yes.
Basically put if I would have my 12 year old daughter look up to a celebrity I rather it be Chloe not Kim. I’m glad she is a voice to these young girls amid all the hyper/over sexual celebrities out there.
It’s acceptable for her and other people to take those kinds of photos because people have the right to take those pictures of themselves. It doesn’t mean you have to agree with that choice, but just because you feel that people should keep their bodies private doesn’t mean other people are in the wrong for doing something with their bodies that goes against your moral code.
@iGotNothin + @Diana
YES!! Agreed 100%
Kim only posted a naked pic of herself because she wanted attention – if she had said “yes, i’m posting it because I wanted to show my tits!” then fine, but instead she decided to HIDE behind the empowerment spiel that Niky Minaj also used to get out of a sticky situation (the fact that shes was pissed off that her ugly video and song didn’t get an award).
People should OWN what they mean in the first place, and get on with it, otherwise we end up really watering down words like “feminism” and “slut shaming”.
Totally agree – those words have lost any meaning whatsoever and are the quickest response now to being called out .
Let’s be real: some women want attention for their T&A. Wouldn’t really call that anything to do with feminism or empowerment.
Wanting attention for doing something and being empowered by doing something are not mutually exclusive. And no, that’s not me saying Kim is an ’empowered feminist icon’ or that she posted that picture for feminism. I’m just saying Let’s be real: Some women ARE empowered by being able to openly reject modesty.
I agree, BendyWindy, and I also disagree with the interpretation of the big hot fiery button. I don’t think she was dismissing slut shaming. I think she was saying that Kim is hiding behind these feminist ideas when that’s not the root of her motives at all. Her motives are to get attention and make money by sexualizing her fake body. Period. People are so anxious not to be “body policing” or “slut shaming” that they can’t legitimately criticize Kim for being a terrible example to young women in every way. Amber tells young women to uses sex to get money from men, but if someone criticizes that, they’re slut shaming. It’s ridiculous.
+1
Completely agree GoodNamesAllTaken!!
I agree completely – she wasn’t saying it’s not a real thing and a problem, but that Kim is hiding behind it when she shouldn’t.
I also don’t feel her original comment was body policing, but as others have said, just a reminder to be more than that. Same with Pink’s.
I couldn’t agree more with everything you say. Hyper-sexualising women isn’t about empowerment, if anything it’s just another form of control.
Agreed
Agree – I didn’t think she was slut shaming either, just offering an alternate on female empowerment. Amber and Kim monetize female sexuality. That’s their choice of course, but it’s not my brand of feminism either.
Yep! Chloe’s original statement had nothing to do with “slut shaming” or criticizing anyone’s body. It just seems to be what people do nowadays, is hurl incendiary accusations out if they are criticized.
I kinda agree with her, and I consider myself a feminist.
Kim is proud of her body, great. But to constantly be posting selfies, it perpetuates a beauty standard, that women should have small waists, big butts, big lips. I mean, Kim photo-shops her IG pics all the time and endorses medically unsound waist trainers, all towards youngsters on IG.
There was an article out there on another site that some actress who had been using the waist trainers is now having kidney problems. I really wish people would investigate more than just relying on what someone says is a great thing to do when it really may not be.
Sigh, I was just waiting for that. Same with you. Why do people have to be such lemmings?
I actually don’t think Kim is proud of her body. If she embraced it fully she would wear clothes that fit. She is narcissistic and needs the conversation to be focused on her. Inside all of that she needs reassurance all the time. She gets that with Kanye and when she needs more, she posts a nude selfie and gets reassurance from her IG fans.
I agree!! I don’t think Kim’s proud of her body. I thinks it’s the opposite, she needs constant affirmation. People who are at peace with themselves and know their worth and know who they are don’t have this need to constantly put themselves on display.
@aims: I saw a clip on their show on E awhile back. One of the famous family vacays. Kimmie was in her little bikini and of course had the camera on herself from the rear, honestly she contorted herself to achieve this position. Someone questioned her and she responded she wished she knew how it felt to hit it from behind. I think self adoration is the correct term to describe her feelings toward herself. It’s a good thing to be proud of yourself for your achievements in life and I guess she considers her body her greatest achievement.
That’s what she’s known for, her body. Any success she’s gotten has been with her body. She has put an insane amount of money into it and now that she’s had kids, it’s changed. Which is normal. My opinion is that a person who is confident in themselves carry themselves well. If you’re secure in yourself it shows.
Agree. If she was proud she would be posting a pic of her body now, after baby, not from a year ago.
If she posted an unphotoshoped image of herself today with all the extras she still wants to lose- that would actually be a message. Not this fakery.
Agreed. If she were truly, genuinely proud of her body, she wouldn’t have had multiple rounds of plastic surgery and photoshop every picture she takes of herself.
She pulls these shenanigans because she desperately wants to be called “hot” by other people. Nothing about that says “empowerment”
No, she’s right. Not everything is “slut-shaming.” You can disagree with someone’s choices and it’s not slut-shaming. Why is there no such thing as “prude-shaming”? I think it’s great that she’s not being gratuitously nude on the internet or in the movies. Why can’t we tell our young ladies that you DON’T have to rely on your body to get ahead in life?
I agree. She didn’t say slut-shaming doesn’t exist, simply that there’s a current trend of invoking the word “slut-shaming” as a way to derail an important conversation about female nudity and how it does and sometimes doesn’t empower us. And isn’t that the bottom line? Nudity can be empowering or it can be a gender trap, depending on the context and the messenger.
Good post Kitten. This girl seems intelligent and her words well thought out. Marilyn Monroe wasn’t shamed for her sexuality, she became iconic because of it. I doubt if the term slut shaming existed in her generation which was so different than the one we inhabit today. But then again, social media didn’t exist then, something I’m sure she would have been grateful for.
Wasn’t sure whether to wade back into this topic but as always, the conversation in the comments sections is such an interesting, eye-opening one.
Well said Kitten. Context and messenger is indeed key!
Perfectly stated.
“Nudity can be empowering or it can be a gender trap, depending on the context and the messenger.”
That is a brilliant way to sum up the situation. Well done, I will be using it!
I will be using it as well. Thanks, Kitten. That articulates, in simple terms, the whole point to me.
I agree. After years of self reflection I realize that the way I dressed in my late teens early 20s wasn’t really to empower myself, it was for the male gaze. At the time I would have fought anyone tooth and nail who tried to claim otherwise, but I was dressing for attention.
Absolutely kitten. Absolutely x 1000.
Agree 100%.
This! Well put Santia and Kitten.
Totally agree. Left a loooong comment discussing empowerment and feminism on the Amber post making a similar argument.
+1,000,000
I’m really glad to see a number of comments here defending Chloe’s words and her perspective. Nowadays it seems that only certain kinds of criticism are permissible. Yes, it is completely within Kim K’s right, as a woman and as a person, to do what she has done — to build her fortune on a sex tape, a dysfunctional family, and frequent nudity. But no, it’s not “slut-shaming” or “body-policing” to disagree with the message that this sends to young people and the stereotypes that this perpetuates.
More to the point of my actual beef: don’t pretend it’s empowerment, all she wants is more money and attention. Money and attention motivate the decisions of plenty of ordinary people, might as well just own up to it.
LOL, I totally agree with her.
Smart cookie. Wish we had more Chloes than Kims.
I think her comment was more shallow-shaming Kim, and she’s right about it. Kim’s about to run headlong into the problem of only being appealing for your looks – she’s too old to keep it up.
Totally agree Melody.
The problem with KK is that she is now entering ‘last chance saloon’ road which ultimately signals the beginning of the end. Social media is going to be subjected to a lot more of her ‘naked selfies’ in the months/dying years to come.
This is what Chloe is referring to. This is posting a naked pic for attention from men, this is not self-empowerment for women/girls. How many times do you need to get naked to empower people? At some point, it simply becomes narcissistic attention seeking for ‘headlines’. You know, ‘what can I do to get myself in the blogs/papers this week as I don’t have a single/movie to plug?’
It is blatant, desperate and sad. One can only hope young girls are not looking at this woman (KK) and thinking ‘I want to be like her someday’ because, if that’s the case, then we should brace ourselves for all the naked bodies to come in future, all in the name of female self-empowerment.
I am not a prude but women/girls taking off their clothes as the only means of selling themselves in the 21st century is just sad. And if we call it out for the desperate ploy it is, we will now all be accused of ‘slut-shaming’. Really, really sad!
Oh, please. How is this the end of her ‘career’? She’s never had one to start with. This will continue forever. She’s looking for attention. If men or young women look at this and find it tantalizing, they certainly need a wake-up call. FFS, what else do you expect from KK?
@saltandpepper: I doubt it will continue “forever”. Interest in Kim will end. Celebs often forget they are replaceable. There are always newer, younger fame chasers ready to take her place. When gravity and time win and Kim loses her looks, she will be ignored. Don’t forget how shallow the public can be. The sad thing is what kind of thirsty celebutard will replace her in the future.
Promoting yourself as a sex symbol or unapologetic sexual being or just plain showing off your goodies at every opportunity has a LIMITED shelf life. Ask Madonna, who is regularly mocked for doing the same “shocking” stunts she used to get away with 20 years ago. Ask Pamela Anderson, who traded on her looks and sexuality and not much else (if we don’t include her admirable animal rights work). Pam’s really not relevant in the pop culture landscape these days, is she?
Perhaps the only way to endure as a sex symbol is to die young, like Marilyn Monroe. The public won’t see you grow old. The public is unforgiving when you do. Too many are fixated on looks and youth. Fickle as hell, people move on to the next “hot young thing”. Of course, if you offer more than just your looks (and Marilyn was more than just surface appeal), you have more longevity. Kim is nothing but surface.
Kris doesn’t think she’s too old, judging by some of her attention seeking antics! But I agree, Kim can’t rely on nude selfies forever.
Tbh even if I don’t 100% agree with her POV I’d still rather hear feminism and aspects of it intelligently discussed than this bumper sticker crap were mired in.
I do believe body policing is an issue as well as slut shaming but you know what else? I also believe it’s become a slogan and a safety net for women that are doing nothing to advance the cause of other women (Kim K, Miley Cyrus).
It genuinely annoys me that when Amber Rose was being slut shamed up and down Kim K. was happily quiet but when someone mocked her (and tbh I don’t consider Bette’s comments slut shaming, just general mockery) we’re all supposed to jump up and come running. “Thanks for joining the team Kimmy!”
So yeah, I’d rather hear Chloe wax poetic than see a lengthy Instagram post that amounts to, “Like guysssss, why didn’t you like my selfiiiieeee?”
Absolutely. I think the issue is much more complicated than “I don’t agree 100% with Chloe so I can’t agree with her at all.” I really didn’t see her initial comment as slut-shaming. She has a frickin’ point. I think certain aspects of modern feminism have become the absolute opposite of what my personal views on a woman’s sexuality or sexual agency are.
Being a feminist does not mean – as Taylor Swift seems to think – agreeing with every woman on earth, supporting every decision every woman makes. WTF? I can say that I disagree strongly with how KK portrays herself, with the image she sells and the way she uses her body and sexuality and NOTHING ELSE. That is not slut-shaming. That’s a difference of opinion. I’m not going to call her names for it and I won’t try to tell her to stop. But I do disagree with the notion that I’m supposed to support it or I’m not a feminist. Or slut-shaming. It’s become the “Nazi” of feminism. It suffocates any discussion as soon as you accuse someone of it.
I really think feminism is just having the ability to live your life in the same way as a man. To me, feminism is about equality of freedom and autonomy. That’s what civil rights are about.
I just don’t get when it turned into not criticizing other women. That’s such a shallow take on feminism. There’s kind of a point–we have to help each other to get ahead, okay–but ultimately this isn’t the reason women don’t get ahead. So it tends to derail the conversation. We don’t need lean in. We need equal freaking pay and better family policies. We don’t need to applaud women sending noods. We need more women to stay in the workforce to actually create change for the rest of us.
“I just don’t get when it turned into not criticizing other women.”
I don’t have a problem with people criticising Kim. What they were criticising her for was problematic to me. If people said she was thirty and tacky, fair point. But the “you’re more than your body” comments were problematic.
@ Locke Lamora: I would argue that Kim is what she does. And it’s intended that way. That’s her image and it has replaced her personality. She doesn’t sell her personality, she sells her body at this point. She’s positioned herself as the queen of plastic nudity. So I’m not sure what they should be criticising her for.
If only everyone who disagreed with women’s decisions around sex and modesty shared your reasonable stance of “I disagree with it, but I won’t call her names or try to stop her.” That’s a perfect example of expressing disagreement without being misogynistic.
People who actually slut-shame can’t stop there though. With them, it has to be “Any woman who does anything I consider sexually immoral with her body has no morals, is a bad role model, is not allowed to be a feminist, deserves to be called a……, is to blame for other people’s behavior, is degraded or an object, is saying this is all women are and have to be just because she’s doing this thing over here in addition to other things, etc.”
I agree with a lot of things she said in this interview, but I still think she was wrong on the Kim K issue. Slut-shaming absolutely exists. Deciding what is the right amount of skin a woman can show is the result of a patriarchal society.
Besides, someone elses behaviour, unless harmfull, is none of my bussiness.
We all know Kim didn’t do this for feminsim or empowerment, but she has the right to do it. For the first time ever women have the right to decide wheter or not they want to show their body, or how much of it they want to show. They have a choice. That is the empowering part.
Oh, and if Kim K is your kid’s role model, that’s YOUR fault.
+1, Locke Lamora.
“We all know Kim didn’t do this for feminism or empowerment, but she has the right to do it” – and to not have people think less of her for doing it. Men enjoy the privilege of getting to be both eye candy and taken seriously at the same time, while for women it always somehow ends up with them having to choose one or the other. It’s time that same level of respect was afforded to women as well.
And while I agree with the general sentiment behind women having a choice re: showing their body for the first time ever, I feel that it is oftentimes simply an illusion of choice. The vitriol, name-calling, slut-shaming, body policing, etc. directed at the women who do not conform to the socially approved standards for women’s behaviour leads me to believe that there might be a substantial number of women who, despite maybe wanting to exercise their sexuality and sexual agency in such a manner, refrain from doing so simply because it’s easier that way.
I do wish Otaku Fairy were here, I’m sure she’d put this a lot more eloquently.
I think you can be eye candy and be taken seriously as a woman. It’s all in how you comport yourself. If a man was constantly sending out dick pics to the world he probably wouldn’t be taken seriously any more than a woman is from practicing similar behaviour.
Hi SugarQuill. 🙂 I think the comments you and Locke Lamora just made are perfect. Especially the parts about empowerment and choice.
She has the right to do it and we have the right to have an opinion about it. She’s putting a product out there and the public as the consumer of her product, will have something to say about it.
…and I personally don’t think there’s anything wrong with that, as long as we don’t bring her sexuality into it or attempt to devalue her based on the fact that she enjoys showing her body off.
I also don’t agree with targeting one woman and making an example out of her. We need to frame the discussion more in terms of systemic issues that promote the policing of women’s bodies and how that fits into a patriarchal society.
Understanding and investigating the complex body-policing issue requires self-examination on a societal level, not the demonization of one reality TV star.
I hear you, Kitten. Your second paragraph was pretty much what I was trying to convey, but much better worded.
And as far as the making an example out of one woman goes, I agree with you, but I’m also kind of enjoying the fact that feminists are standing up for Kim Kardashian aka someone who, I thought, is generally not well-liked in those circles. That would have been unheard of a few years ago. Progress!
Oh, I agree with you. I think this was thirsty and attention seeking on Kim’s part, but I just don’t think her value as a human being somewhow connected with her body, and as SugarQuill said, that never happens to men.
The one criticism Kim gets the most is that she got famous of a sex tape. Not her family exploiting her underage sisters, not her parenting skills which are somewhat problematic – it always comes back to the sex tape. And I think that is problematic as well.
And I don’t thinkt that the majority of the blame is on the women who use their bodies to get ahead. They use the tools they have been given, but the blame lies with a society that still values a woman’s appearance above everything else.
I hope you got what I was trying to say, it’s hard to sound eloquent in English.
I hardly think calling Kim out for once again exposing her body under the thin guise of “empowerment” is slut or body shaming, Come on.
Especially when the picture is over a year old and doesn’t resemble her current body. Someone here made the comment, if she’s so proud of her body why doesn’t she show off what a normal post pregnancy body looks like. Not that her body is remotely normal anymore given all the work.
I am surprised that Khloe did not go off on a profanity laden tirade over this.
i mean, i’m a feminist. while i see the point of people saying kim and any other woman should be allowed to do anything they want with their bodies, is it really that wrong to criticise the type of message people like kim send? because it does look like there’s nothing behind it. if a successful, talented artist wants to post nude selfies (like dunno fka twigs), is a completely different thing that kim kardashian doing it. she’s also married to a massive misogynist, so imo both pink and chloe have a point. it’s nothing to do with slut shaming, it’s telling girls they can be MORE. and i don’t see what’s wrong with that.
Me, neither. They are more than that.
I agree with Chloe’s statement, but also I think it’s whoever thinks Kim K is a good role model. She is hiding behind the slut shaming button but that applies to Kim K, I’m not saying it’s for every situation where women are really attacked by it. Kim K does her nude selfies & photo shoots for attention because really, what’s her talent? She’s not an actress, singer, entertainer, or model. She has nothing to sell but herself (her image), she needs to keep the conversation going. I prefer my sister looking up to Chloe than to Kim K, because Chloe has a well put career & seems to be articulate for her age. She’s talented, an actress! She does photo shoots & interviews to promote her films.
Seriously. If we can do #askhermore about what dress someone is wearing we can do #showussomesubstancefortheloveofgod
Of course women can do whatever the hell they want with their bodies, I’m not arguing with that. What I am against is the pushing of this idea that women and girls HAVE to do it in order to get ahead/get noticed and that while you might have other things to offer, this is the most important and trumps everything else.
Want 1 million instagram hits, pose naked, don’t do something worthwhile. We live in a society where a frightening number of young girls aspire to be like Kim yet they couldn’t tell you who Malala Yousafzai is.
Men aren’t showing up at galas and award shows in nothing but strategically places netting and sequins and dresses cut to show everything but their nips and hoo-has. Watch any music video, what you’ll see is fully clothed men and women in bikinis and underwear, and I’m not just talking rap or hip hop. It’s still happening in fashion editorials, movies, music to name a few.
This! Isn’t feminism about equality? Then why do men get to be heard and seen with their clothes on while women supposedly have to get naked under the guise of equality and feminism?
And this becomes part of the problem that we, as women, end up complaining about. We can’t say that it’s wonderful to be appreciated for your bits and parts and then say whoa is us for not being able to get roles, jobs, etc. once gravity and time get a hold of those once “attractive” bits and parts.
Conversely, you could also ask why men get to be seen and heard both with and without their clothes on, whereas women are barely heard regardless of how covered up they are.
It’s in the working world too. Men get promoted over women, but very attractive women get promoted over less attractive women. So women are trained to feminize themselves always (Wear make up to work, attractive work clothes, attractive hair, heels) which helps them rise to a point (this example is assuming all people are generating the same work out put) and she can rise above the other females more easily by doing this. However, I have noticed, that once you reach a certain level, these same feminizing strategies now hurt you. They highlight your ‘otherness’ and prevent you from further penetrating the glass ceiling.
I think a big issue is a lot of women don’t realize how sexist their places of work are until they start to get older. Once you’re older and you start to see over and over who gets promoted to upper management and who doesn’t….you start to see patterns. When I was young [at the same company] i would never have said my company had a problem with sexism. Now that I am older I can’t NOT see it! I’ve also noticed how the majority of our entry level positions are minorities….but guess which shade all the managers are? It’s very disturbing.
I agree with her in a way, she is a smart young woman.
Though I see nothing wrong with posting sexy photos if you want to, I’m a pinup model so I do it all the time.
I agree with Chloe. Kim’s path to success is extremely lazy. Showing your tits and tail for followers and endorsements is the laziest way a woman can get ahead. Having actual talent does matter. It isn’t slut shaming, to me Pink and Chloe are calling out the laziness that these women perpetuate. Leotards and skimpy outfits have been the uniform for performers for a long time. It did not start with Beyonce and Pink. Male performers have been underdressed on stage since forever as well (hair bands, Bowie, Jagger, shirtless rappers, etc). Chloe’s comments are very valid.
Finally, thank you!
This is what I think Pink/Chloe were trying to point out. To choose this utterly lazy/obvious way to make your money and then bang on about women/girls ‘self-empowerment’ just takes the biscuit.
I also agree with her…
It’s too easy to pretend to be slut-shamed just because you get critized for showing your naked body to the entire world.
Kim K. spend HER ENTIRE LIFE showing us how perfect she is. In some way, she is body shaming us!!!! The worst is that the naked picture was taken before her pregnancy. And she was acting like it’s the way a body is supposed to look like after giving birth!! Who is body shaming the other???
She exposed herself to the entire world, expecting people to adore her, to compliment her and her body. And when people dare to critize, she pretend to be body-shamed!!! Isn’t that too easy???
So basically, all we are allowed to say is “OMG you’re body is so perfect”????
I consider myself a feminist : I went to law school, became a lawyer, work in a big firm, earn as much as a man, choose when I wanted to have a kid etc… And I just get super mad when I see people like Kim K. pretending to be a feminist while posting naked selfies!!!!
Obviously, it’s her body and she can do whatever she wants with it… BUT it’s doesn’t mean she is above critisims while doing so… Feminism is not a free pass.
Here’s the thing though. Yes the photo is old. But what is any different between that, and someone posting a photo of themselves on facebook or instagram that is also months or a year or two old? That’s not them NOW. It’s not an accurate photo of what they look like at that moment – are they embarrassed by how they look in this moment? You know what I mean? Just because she’s naked doesn’t necessarily make it vastly different.
And I 100% get what you’re saying. I find myself feeling quite similar on a lot of things. I work in an office that’s about 80% men or more. My department is probably higher percentage than that – and I’m in IT – I’m a web developer. I absolutely give a certain kind of woman the side-eye. When I’m working my ass off in a field where women aren’t the norm – I absolutely take issue with the few women here who swing on over and whine in fake high pitched voices and make themselves seem so helpless in order to get what they want. It angers me.
But outside of the workplace? Meh. I see Kim posting photos like that, and it means very little to me. Do I think she’s incredibly empowered? No. But I do think she is more confident about her branding and the ‘career’ she’s made for herself than people give her credit for. Yes, she does seem to place a lot of her worth on her body – maybe it’s not healthy. Maybe it is. I can’t see into her mind, so I have no idea. Maybe the photo was taken during a time where she DID feel great about her body, and she’s sharing it again, for herself. For attention, sure. Every single instagram or fb post anyone makes is at least A LITTLE bit for attention. But I’m not going to write her off for that when it’s the norm for social media.
Kim is problematic, but at the same time, I don’t think she’s the problem. I think the problem lies much more within the expectations we have for each other, the expectations placed on us by men, or by the media, or by whoever. I do take issue with the kind of woman who actively places herself in a position where they need to be taken care of by men, or who put on a completely different voice, or demeanor in an attempt to get what they want.
For me though, none of that just ties into nudes or anything like that. Hey, maybe she really does like how she looks in photos. Maybe she’s incredibly insecure. Again, I’m not going to pretend to know. But if her posting the photos helps her feel good about her body, I don’t have issue with that. If even a little bit of her is thinking “women don’t need to be ashamed of nudity” it’s not necessarily a bad thing.
Honestly – while I’ve never taken any, nor do I plan on it – I like seeing the more artistic nudes. The photos that you can just TELL a woman feels great about herself in. There’s something magical about seeing someone comfortable in their skin – male or female – especially in a world where breast feeding still causes people to freak out.
Great read!!!!
I also think people don’t give her enough credit for a career. I mean, you don’t become that “successful” if you don’t have a head for the business. Her 15 minutes of fame would have been over years ago if she didn’t work her ass off to accomplish what she has accomplished. You can discuss the meaning of her success, sure… But in the end, she has become more powerful and more successful than most of us out there…
I do respect her professionalism…
But I just can with thoses naked selfies. It just sends the wrong message!
It’s her body and – yes – she can show it if she wants to!!! But she should’nt blame bodyshaming when people critize her. And she CERTAINLY should pretend to be a feminist and be empowered by those naked pictures when – clearly – she is so unsecured about her own body…
Lilou- Kim is not a great businesswoman. She doesn’t talk like one when she is interviewed in person (anything written can’t count, others write for her). She does have a smart businesswoman as a manager, Demon Mother (aka Kris Jenner). Kim just follows instructions, shows up and signs her name.
Kim’s overwhelming ambition has always been to be famous (no particular “famous for what” seemed to be on her mind). Everything she does is aimed at that goal, including the infamous sex tape (which was planned for distribution, she even introduced herself by name). She raced to the courthouse to file for divorce once she realized she could upgrade from husband #2 to Kanye, who could make her more famous and get her into places she wanted to be. She has no special skills and no special intelligence. Her fame today seems squarely focused on her naked and nearly naked body. She is not likely to age well.
Exactly! It’s like our only options here are to either fawn over Kim’s plastic, photoshopped body and give in to her famewhoredness, or be called “slut-shamers” and have to turn in our feminist cards.
I choose option C – Kim is free to post whatever she wants on the internet. She’s not allowed to tell us what we think about it.
I agree with Chloe. She was not slut shaming or body-policing. Kim wants to hide behind those phrases so she can continue to be her vapid vain self. If she is going to put it out there the she should also expects opinions to be posted about it.
To me slut shaming is shaming someone who enjoys sex. telling someone that there is more to life then posting nude selfies is not slut shaming and Chloe is right people are throwing around the term for everything now.
Kim K. objectifies her self – objectification is not sexy. Great article here:
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/lifestyle/bebold/an-open-letter-to-kim-kardashian-west-re-objectification/ar-AAgGcWn
Wow that was a great open letter.
She wasn’t body policing or slut shaming, Kim. She’s saying, like so many other posters have said, that there is more to women than their bodies. Hell, there’s more to Kim than hers, but we’d never know it because Kim doesn’t feel her self worth goes beyond her naked, photoshopped, remade body. I’m with Chloe.
I agree with Chloe too! Of course there is slut shaming out there, BUT now it is something people hide behind. Hurry up and claim slut shaming, and everything else is over looked. Absolutely nothing about Kim is about empowerment and being a strong woman. She wanted attention so the first thing she went to was showing a naked picture of herself. She has sat by and watched proudly while her husband rants and really does slut shame other women so please don’t tell me Kim is about supporting women.
What Pink and others are trying to say is, you can be more than just the naked girl to get attention. I think its sick how much plastic surgery that family has had and young girls look up to them and try to emulate them. So I will stand by Pink, Bette, and Chloe every day before siding with Kim on this issue.
I agree. I read Pink as saying, “You have value beyond your aesthetic.” And she is totally, 100% right. The Kims of the world offer nothing beyond appearance. And maybe I’m a bit old-fashioned, but I still come from a view that taught that things like vanity, vapidness, obsession with appearance, etc. are BAD things. You shouldn’t want to be that way. I’m sorry, but it feels more and more like this whole “you do you” worldview is getting out of hand. I still tend to believe that there are better ways than others to live. And to live a life dominated by outward appearances is not good.
‘She has sat by and watched proudly while her husband rants and really does slut shame other women so please don’t tell me Kim is about supporting women.”
this. that’s why the words feminism and kim k don’t go together. i’ll take her seriously when she stops associating herself with that misogynist.
Honestly, I see this whole thing as basically some women not getting the difference between the pathetic “I choose my choice” version of feminism and, you know, actual critical cultural analysis. Nobody is arguing for Taliban-style enforcement of clothing standards. But what I do see is people (including a lot of really smart women) calling for a critical view of how this pre-packaged version of “empowerment” plays right into the dominant paradigm. That’s not slut-shaming, that’s not body policing. That’s actual critical thinking and there seems to be less and less of it going around.
First, let’s be clear – this kind of “empowerment” is only available to you if you’re conventionally attractive. Huge swaths of women – who are labeled as gross/ugly/maimed/etc. – don’t get the message that you can be “empowered” by taking your clothes off. In fact, they get the opposite message. They get told that their bodies are disgusting and that they ought to keep their clothes on. So let’s dispense with the idea that “sexy” is even an idea that is made available to all women right now. There are plenty who are denied that status from the get-go.
Secondly, and this is what I don’t get – how can one become “empowered” by playing directly into the dominant cultural paradigm? I’m not saying that women who want compliments for aesthetics are bad people, or wrong for doing so. I don’t believe that everything a woman does needs to be feminist or empowering or even positive. We’re allowed to be human and not be “on” 24/7. But why are we pretending that you can get “empowered” by doing exactly what the dominate cultural wants and demands of you? To me, “empowerment” comes from resistance to the cultural norm. It takes courage to act in a powerful way. But it’s not courageous to do what’s expected of you anyway. It takes courage to act against the paradigm, not in line with it. In truth, I see more empowerment in my Muslim friend who walks down the street in a hijab than in a conventionally attractive white woman taking sexy selfies. And that’s because the Muslim is affronting the cultural norm here, which says that the female form should be constantly available for male consumption, and she’s bucking that by dressing solely on her terms. (Now, obviously, in the Muslim’s home nation, the roles would be reversed!). But we’re talking about this culture, obviously. I just don’t see how, logically, a woman doing exactly what the dominant culture would expect of her can claim “empowerment” from it. She can feel great about doing whatever she wants, and she’ll get no argument from me either way. But this “choice/empowerment feminism to me is hollow and really degrades what feminism can be.
That was a really interesting and thoughtful comment, Sam. Curious to read the counterarguments…
YES! And that’s why I just can’t get behind the Free the Nipple movement, or similarly shallow “feminist” actions. If we can’t have this type of discourse without being shout down as slut-shamers then I don’t think this movement can progress much farther. (On the sexual front at least)
I’m glad I’m not the only one sick of the Free the Nipple movement. That is what we are fighting for now? The ridiculousness of it is insane.
My nipples are staying inside my clothing. They don’t need to venture out where it’s cold or where they could become sunburned.
It’s fine to be against Free the nipple and topless equality…. as long as you’re just as opposed to men being shirtless/showing their nipples in public as you are to women doing it. But if you’re okay with men having the right to do something and against women having that same right, that’s sexism, and people will point it out. That’s true on any issue.
Exactly. That’s why it’s not empowering to me, Kim posing naked. She’s just doing what’s expected, posing nude or nearly nude for male pleasure. If she was doing it for her own enjoyment, she would send kanye naked selfies and leave it at that. But she wants the attention and compliments from others so she does it in a public forum. Posing for attention is not empowering, it’s seeking validation and approval from the public, namely males. Using your body for approval from males is not empowering.
Just to play devil’s advocate: Kim posing naked isn’t empowering to me either, but is it empowering to HER, is the question. And is it really our place to dictate or judge what personally empowers her?
This is why I think it’s problematic to take on this topic in terms of how one individual demonstrates her version of female empowerment. I feel like people will defend it as a personal choice (which it is) but then the issue becomes that if we dismiss it as simply a personal choice, then we miss out on the larger discussion, which Sam is tackling here.
I don’t know the answer or anything (clearly lol)..I’m just kind of thinking aloud.
The origin of female empowerment was about showing the world that women are more than the fabricated role that had been created for them. Women showing that they are more than wombs and sex outlets, more than wives and mothers, and then expanding upon that some more by showing that women can be more than nurses and teachers (two of the few roles open to them professionally).
Why was Rosie the Riveter so captivating? Because it so starkly contrasted the common perception of what it meant to be a women during WWII.
So what does female empowerment mean in 2016? To expand society’s view of what women are capable of? What does that mean? Great thing to ponder today, what a gift.
Yes! You just articulated exactly why this new wave of female ’empowerment’ is so problematic to me. Thank you.
I have to get back to work, so this isn’t going to be as extensive a reply as I would like it to be, but I’m going to post the CliffNotes version here and maybe get back to it later if I have the time.
The argument that this sort of empowerment is only available to conventionally attractive women also applies to involuntary objectification and sexualisation – for the most part, it is conventionally attractive women that have to deal with this (and even they get negative comments occasionally, from people whose advances they have rejected, from people bothered by the idea that a woman might actually like the way she looks, etc.) And there is a trend re: empowerment that aims to expand the definition of beauty in order for it to be available to more women.
While there are many interesting points in your second argument (although I may not agree with them), and I’m guessing that this is an issue that will not be settled for quite some time, the empowerment women might feel in such circumstances is, IMHO, linked to the fact that it does not challenge the dominant cultural paradigm directly, but rather it challenges the response that is the knee-jerk reaction to that dominant cultural paradigm by “playing into it” to a certain extent and then refusing to accept the standard demonisation that goes along with it. The aforementioned paradigm is firmly rooted in the God-awful and damaging Madonna/whore dichotomy and the concept of women exercising their sexual agency however they see fit or feeling sexually empowered is an attempt to dismantle that particular cultural norm. Society constantly tells women that they cannot be taken seriously and that they are not worthy of respect if they are not covered up, so this refusal to accept that line of thought and challenge that attitude does constitute a rebellious act to me. It sends the message that, as women, we do not have to choose between being one or the other, that we are multifaceted beings that cannot be reduced simply to an either/or and that respect is not conditional. In that sense, I personally find that it aligns nicely with feminist principles.
This is not to say that every woman out there needs to partake in this particular brand of empowerment. Some might feel more comfortable with the type of empowerment Sam articulated, whereas some prefer this sort of empowerment. It’s up to the individual, but I don’t think either should be dismissed.
THANK YOU!!! I had a similar comment days ago on the topic, stating that to me courageous or feminist or taking a stand would be posting a naked photo of a breast cancer survivor – that would be empowering. We are still beautiful no matter if we don’t fit the conventional, accepted beauty model. KK posting a naked selfie is the very opposite of feminine empowerment.
When your “career” is basically “sex tape”, “sexy selfies” “pap walks in outfits barely covering your bits” how does that translate into feminism? Particularly when the picture is ‘shopped, of a body so altered by surgery it barely bears a resemblance to the original. I swear, the only thing left is her original height, because she can’t alter that. Everything else… not so much. So not sure how women are supposed to applaud that, unless we are encouraging them to go under the knife.
Great comments, ladies. I have only one thing to add. Empowerment can mean different things to different people. Going against the cultural norm – to me – doesn’t have to be the definition. If a woman has the choice to live her life the way she wants to live it (in a bikini or hijab), if she can look at herself and make the independent decision to say “This is who I am, this is what I’m comfortable with, this is what makes me happy, f*ck what other people say.” then I would say she’s empowered. There are a few conditions that have to be met in order for a woman to truly have that choice though. And I would say that often we don’t even realize that our so-called choice isn’t solely ours. We are always – among other things – products of our environment.
@Sam: I get where you’re coming from but I am doubtful that your Muslim friend is more empowered than, say, Miley Cyrus. She goes against the norm but subscribes to another culture’s norm that puts her in an equally extreme position. Again, we’re all products of our environment to some extent.
Here’s my response:
First, to address the whole “well, can it be empowering to HER, personally?” I’m sure Kim feels very good about her pictures. I’m sure that she personally feels great. However, empowerment, for me, is not an individualistic thing because feminism is not. Feminism, as a movement, is about the empowerment and lifting up of women as a GROUP and a CLASS. If this was genuinely just about each woman doing herself and only pursuing her own interests, there would be far less of a need for feminism. But the problem is that women are not all starting from a equal starting line. Women like Kim – the white, conventionally good looking, well off women – are far ahead of others. And a big part of WHY they’re so far ahead is because the dominant environment favors them and their attributes. The part of why others are so far behind is because the current environment/culture demonizes/devalues their attributes. So that’s where we’re starting from. And that’s the bubble in which any “empowerment” currently takes places. The current culture wants women like Kim to take her clothes off and parade around on camera. It wants others to keep their clothes on. Given that, while Kim might feel great within that context, my question is whether it’s FEMINIST empowerment when she does this. And my answer is No, it’s not. Primarily, I think that’s because a feminist idea of empowerment would not premise itself upon a standard as fickle and variable as physical aesthetic. This is not to say that women can’t gain great gratification and joy from physical compliments or attention from men. I certainly do. But I don’t frame it as a feminist thing. It’s just a human thing.
When I look at the great examples of feminist empowerment, I see all examples of things that pushed past the dominant values of the period. Rosie the Riveter was empowering because she was presenting a (then) subversive idea that women could be powerful and physically strong at a time when the dominant ideas about women centered around docility and domesticity. We celebrate women who are among the first to encroach into traditionally male jobs or positions because she’s going AGAINST the dominant thing at the time. That matters, to me. Feminist empowerment is about arguing that a woman should not be constrained by the dominant cultural norms of the time. So again, I need to make it clear that I am not arguing that Kim can’t get personal empowerment or good feelings from her pictures. But this is about whether that can be feminist empowerment, and I don’t think it can. And I don’t see that as a problem. Not everything a woman does need be “feminist.” I think we’ve gotten into a place where women feel as though feminism is a full-time job or something like that, and that’s a shame. Not everything need be a feminist statement. But that also means that feminism isn’t the default setting for anything a woman does.
SugarQuill: I do want to respond to something I think is inaccurate, and that is that there is a message sent that if a woman doesn’t cover up, she’s not worthy of respect. Personally, I’m a practitioner of modesty in my own life, and I have to say, I do not believe that there is any real general support in the dominant culture for modest-dressing women. There is a serious struggle to find consistent, well-done modest clothing (especially in warmer weather) and “prude shaming” is absolutely a thing (because it’s inferred that if you’re modest-dressing, you must be sexually cold or unavailable). Granted, there are small sectors of the culture where modesty is preferred (such as conservative Christian, Jewish and Muslim enclaves) but they are few and far between. Overall, I don’t believe we have any aspects of the dominant culture that genuinely support modest dressing. The dominance is far more in favor or less modest dress now, from where I’m standing. But obviously, that’s just my view.
Just as an aside, I think the modest issue really differs from country to country (I live in Germany). I’ve never ever witnessed anyone criticising women for dressing too modestly. I don’t even show my knees in the summer because I hate them. Mostly people don’t care.
Empowerment doesn’t have to be one or the other. And I do think that at the end of the day, we should arrive at every single woman being able to decide for herself, independent of a group, what it means to her. Yes, the group needs to come first, that’s what I mean by “conditions”.
But my problem is that I don’t see how that is “feminism.” Every woman just doing her own thing, to me, isn’t “feminism,” it would just be a bunch of individuals making individual decisions. Feminism is supposed to be about advancing the class, the group. It’s about what is best for the group. And women as a group deserve to be able to find empowerment outside of the confines of the limits that the dominant society sets for them. So why should feminism as a movement occupy itself with caring about what is already approved of by the dominant society? How does that actually advance the goals? Advancement would dictate that feminism as a movement push as the boundaries, the fringes of what is considered acceptable far more than protecting the feelings of those who are comfortable with the dominant culture. I just don’t get why there’s so much insistence on feminism validating what a lot of women already do. You don’t need big f Feminism to validate your sexy pictures.
As women, we need feminism to be able to get to the point where society allows us to truly make independent choices in every aspect of our lives. You can’t stop at the movement and say that’s what it’s about. It’s useless if it doesn’t lead to the advancement of the individual. I’m not saying a movement needs to advance my personal ideas of how I want to live my life but do you really think that women being truly independent and equal is not pushing boundaries? Kim K. is a horrible example and as I said, I don’t agree with the idea she’s selling. But I also don’t agree that empowering women has nothing to do with validating what many women already do. Many many things we do are not truly valued or accepted by society. And I’m not talking about Kim’s naked selfies.
Great comment!
The dominant culture does put pressure on women to be sexy, but it also puts pressure on women from childhood through adulthood to live in fear of being seen ‘as a slut’ and to feel the need to separate ourselves from women who are considered ‘sluts & wh*res in order to prove our worth and value as women & human beings. So there’s room for a woman to find empowerment or rebellion either way. @Sam: putting the priority on all women- whether they’re ‘modest’, ‘immodest’, or a blend of both- being able to make decisions about their bodies and the concept of ‘sexual modesty’ without being treated as lesser or blamed for others’ behavior is the part that’s supposed to be empowering for women as a group. And it’s feminist because we can’t have equality without fighting against the message that some women or people in general are ‘lesser’ based on sex and modesty. Promoting gender equality requires equality among women too.
Great post and I agree totally. She’s just perpetuating a certain sex doll look expected or desired by the patriarchy itself. It’s not empowering, it’s not original, it’s not brave. It is, however, a path that some women choose to take and that’s fine but don’t sell it as anything other than selling out to the patriarchy.
Perfectly posited, Sam. Thank you!!
I agree with Chloe. The word “slut-shaming” can’t be used to shut down legitimately critical cultural analysis.
You know… I don’t agree with everything Chloe is saying but I’m glad she’s saying it. I love that she has an opinion and can speak extensively on the subject and she truly cares about it. She’s a young woman who can talk about more than just superficial things so I’m glad to read her interview.
I think the “hot fiery button” of slut-shaming is a way to tap out and be right at the same time, so instead of looking at the material given, someone can use one of these terms to divert from the actual issue. Chloe said something that should’ve been admirable to young girls everywhere, but throw in the term “slut-shaming” and all of the sudden, even if I don’t personally think she was shaming her for being slutty, that’s ALL it’s about. For the record, I don’t have any problems with nudity. Do what you want. But I’m also onboard with everyone who says that Kim’s nudity is just tiresome, no one cares anymore, we can see right through it, no it’s not empowering to force my attention in your direction because you can’t stand something as simple as carrying baby weight for a few short months without being naked. By the way, showing her after baby body…THAT would’ve been empowering. But I digress. I think Chloe’s at an age, like many other young celebrities, where she’s coming into her opinions strongly because she’s looked at by millions of girls and because these are the entry-level years of her adulthood. I never once thought she was slut-shaming, I got the impression that she was saying that we’re better than a nude selfie. Body policing? Sure. But I think it’s far less damaging to remind women that they don’t have to take a nude selfie in a bathroom for attention, than say, trying to pass off said selfie as empowering.
Of course, I agree with the whole “girls should know they have more to offer than their bodies” (obviously), but as far as Kim K. is concerned, I don’t think she has any more to offer than her body, sadly.
All the Kardashian/Jenner girls monetize their body/looks/sexuality because it has become their only asset, since they gave up a proper education.
If she has nothing more to offer, perhaps she should disappear????
I still think she was body policing Kim, and I usually dislike her. Today more than ever there are so many examples in entertainment of women making different choices and being happy. There are young women like Amandla who dress modestly and women like Kim who enjoy showing off their bodies for self-enjoyment and that’s OK. Imagine if someone came at Chloe for her NYLON cover where she looks almost naked telling her that “she should show young women that there’s more to us than our bodies”? Hell would break loose because she herself would argue that every woman should express herself as she sees fit, even those who are in the public eye. And reblogging Pink slut-shaming comment was really low. The same Pink who said that women who get naked don’t respect themselves and basically should be ashamed of themselves.
I’m sorry, but no. First – Kim isn’t posting naked pics for “self-enjoyment.” Women who do that do not feel the urge to post them for the world to see. They keep them for themselves and their partners. If Kim was taking them for her own viewing pleasure or that of her husband, nobody here would care or even by the wiser. She is putting them out there because she wants the PUBLIC to see them and validate her. That’s not empowerment, that’s thirst.
And Pink didn’t say that it’s wrong to be naked. Hell, she herself has performed in very little. The difference is that Pink is not a one-trick pony who’s only skill is in being naked. She’s also an athlete, a performer, etc. Pink was calling out women who ONLY profit from their aesthetic.
Ok and what is wrong with enjoying showing off your body for everyone to see? I’ll get personal now but I enjoy my body a lot, I work out and I posted pics on me in a bikini on my IG because I wanted people to see it. Does that make me an horrible person? Does that mean I have nothing else going in my life? Does it mean I’m not smart and I don’t have a lot of interests and passions? Nobody ever said that Kim is championing feminism but acting like she’s a shame to womanhood because she’s always naked is wrong. Pink has always bad mouthed any woman who makes different choices, and she, not me used the word self-respect. My question: why is it an offence to other women if Kim or any other woman who isn’t an entertainer gets naked and profits from her body?
cynthia it’s not an offence, in general. it’s not a good message if that’s all a person has to offer, because we all can and should be more than that. if chloe’s criticism was directed at someone with actual talent and not at kim k, who btw as i wrote several times is married to an incredibly sexist man and never bothered to say a thing when he was ripping apart other women, then i would agree with you. but it’s kim k, so telling young women not to try to be like her it’s actually a great idea.
Cynthia – well, if you count vanity or pride as a flaw of character, that would count. If I saw somebody online posting bikini shots, I’d presume they were fishing for compliments or potentially constructive feedback. Now, I’m the type who only posts an image if there’s something in the image I feel like sharing (food, location, etc.) Truthfully, the idea of posting a picture of just myself (for no real discernible reason) kind of flies over my head. But I still ascribe to the whole “pride goeth before the fall” view, so that’s just me. If somebody is simply posting bikini pics, I won’t think, “Bad person.” But I will think “the thirst is strong with this one.”
Well said, Sam. I agree, I have “friends” that post bikini pics, lots of selfies on IG and I tend to cringe at their thirst for compliments.
+1, Cynthia
@ell and sam, I get your points but nobody is saying nor implying that young women should be like Kim. My point is that today there’s a big spectrum of what young women can be or can present themselves as, whether we like it or not. And if a young woman wants to be sexual and have her body admired by others she shouldn’t be shamed nor she should be told that she lacks self-respect. It’s still part of the virgin/whore dichotomy to me.
But Cynthia, that’s my central question – why should physical validation matter at all? Not all humans are physically “good looking.” I’m not somebody who argues that “everyone is beautiful!” Because in truth, I don’t think we are all aesthetically pleasing in the same way. My question is why should we seek physical validation in the first place? I can see it mattering to intimate partners, for whom physical attraction is often an essential prerequisite to intimacy. But why seek it from a general or wide audience? What type of validation is that really seeking? That’s what you’re not really answering. When I see a woman posting sexy images for a wide audience, I presume she’s seeking large-scale validation of her physical appearance on grounds of vanity, and that makes her thirsty for the attention.
I do seek physical validation and I am not ashamed of that. Are the possible reasons why some individuals look for validation pivotal to the issue of slut-shaming? I still think that a woman showing her body whether for vanity or any other reason shouldn’t be told that she represents a downgrade for our gender, it’s buying into respectability politics. You don’t have to like it nor approve of it but we aren’t a monolith just like men aren’t. A man doing something that another disapproves isn’t told that he’s doing a disservice to his gender. It’s also so relative. Growing up I had issues with the shape of my body and seeing women like Beyonce’ with curves like mine showing off her body and being proud of it helped my a lot. Let’s agree to disagree, I guess.
I used to totally be the girl who would think and say some other girl was a slut if she posed like this. Just dwell on how much I hated the prettier girl until I was seething. Now I have an 11 year old daughter who listens and learns from the way I talk about any body. My problems with my body, my problems with someone else’s body, how they dress etc.. She’s going through puberty and has all the goodies that come with it. Acne, being taller than other girls, getting curves, gaining weight etc.. and she is miserable. Ive really had to let go of being a jealous girl because I can’t tell my daughter that she shouldn’t be ashamed of her body while I’m shaming someone else’s. I try to downplay people’s looks all together. Showing her girl astronauts, animators and scientists and telling her that she could be that instead of showing her a picture like Kim’s and telling her she shouldn’t be that. I owe it to my daughter to teach her to be a better person than I am. I still will look at pictures like this and hope my husband wouldn’t Stepford Wife me into Kim if he could, though.
Actually excess vanity is something that people mock too, and it isn’t slut-shaming. It’s just mocking another person’s narcissism or excessive need for attention/validation and has little to do with the virgin/whore dichotomy.
The problem that I had with kim’s pic is both (i) her excessive need for attention; and (ii) her overly naked and sexual pose. If she were simply posting pics of herself in a bikini, I’d only think wow, what a needy attention starved person. But to go that extra step and post a basically nude pic online; it just seems extra desperate and crude. The latter may seem like slut-shaming but really, I just thought, wow are there no barriers anymore? Sure, if you’r in a nudist colony, go for it. Or, if you’re in a situation that calls for nudity – like in bed with her husband or at the doctor’s office, fine. And be naked all you want at home. The point is that there’s a time and place for nudity and she simply ignores that. That may be respectability politics, but I have the same problem with naked men flaunting their goods on public sites. I would be just as disgusted, for example, if Chris Hemsworth posted a pic of himself with just his genitals blacked out. I would think, What is wrong with that guy that he needs to do that/ So I guess what I have a problem with is public nudity in a context that doesn’t call for it – sorry but I’m just pretty conventional in that way.
+ 1, Cynthia.
When men see a naked woman they don’t think of feminnisim or female empowerment that is just in the mind of women like the Kardashians to excuse themselves
That is 100% true. Men see a sexual object they can exploit. They don’t think “wow this woman is so empowered, I hope I have a wife or daughter like this one day”. Same thing when I see men objectifying themselves, I don’t see it as empowering themselves either.
….Because of course what the menz may think about what a woman is doing determines whether or not a woman gets to find empowerment from it. That’s another part of male privilege- the way people think a man will feel/think about what a woman is doing with her body is always the thing that determines how society reacts to women doing it, whether it’s being topless in public, wearing revealing clothes, public breastfeeding, or anything else. If straight/bi/pan men weren’t attracted to women sexually, and we didn’t connect sexual desire with disrespect and abuse, a lot of this wouldn’t be an issue.
“The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off”
~Gloria Steinem
…
Q: Why did u get implants?
A: FOR MEN.
I want to tell my own personal story about being sexy and empowerment, if I may. So.. about 2 weeks ago, I decided to audition for this all guy band that is actually really good. They have a record coming out and are well established.
I’m a rhythm guitarist and can play pretty well. My dream is to learn lead and basically become Billy Corgan lol. I can play SP songs from tabs and nail them. I sent an audition tape of me playing a fairly complex song and a link to my website that had more videos and pictures I’ve taken. Like macros of bugs and flowers etc.. And there were some very vanilla boudoir pics I didn’t even care enough about to remember were there. BTW At the time, I did them for me. For my empowerment. And they show less skin than most swimsuits do. I didnt even think they’d click the album or I would have just locked it. Anyway.. The guys freaked out. Immediately it was “you’re so hot! It would be awesome to have a sexy girl in the band!”
They didn’t even care about my video. I have worked my ass off on the guitar and that meant nothing. I know I could play any song they threw at me. But as soon as they saw those pictures, my skill meant nothing. The “sexy girl” part was everything. I was a novelty. I told them right off the bat that I didn’t look like that all but once a year and just wanted to play in jeans and a t-shirt like them. Guess who suddenly wasn’t good enough to be in the band? So being sexy for myself was empowering but it was what also stopped me from being taken seriously as a musician or even seen as an equal. I hate those pictures now. I hate me for doing them. I objectified myself and got screwed over for it. Being good at the guitar means 1000 X more to me than being sexy. But that’s never going to be the thing that “sells me.” Kim is always going to have to keep going over the top, sexually, with this character she’s created to stay relevant and she’ll continue to objectify herself no matter how empowered she might feel.
VERY good story – thx – but I think your time has come … this is a great time to be a kick-ass female musician!!!
Thanks! The sad thing is, is that this has happened to me so many times I can’t count. I’m sure I’m not alone, either. Guys totally expect a “girl in a band” to be either a cute, pouty mouthed almost child like Gwen Steffani or a sexy, sultry goth chick like Shirley Manson. It has never not gotten weird in any band I’ve been in. Even Billy Corgan hires petite, scantily clad girls for his bands. I just figure, I’m either going to have to look like the stereotypical “girl in a band” or just play by myself to the radio.
this a great story, and yes we need to take this into consideration as well. there’s nothing wrong in being sexy and also super skilled at what you do, actually it’s pretty amazing. trouble is the line between being empowering and being objectified is unfortunately very thin.
Thank you and you’re right. It is a very thin line. I’ve been beating myself up about those dumb pictures ever since. I purposely shot the video in bad lighting with my face barely showing just so they wouldn’t be judging me by looks. And that’s the thing that really sucks for people who only depend on them. They fade. Even if it’s not the only thing you have to fall back on, if you ever counted on them for attention before, you’ll always be held against the younger, hotter version of yourself. Look at Marilyn Monroe. Who ever talks about what a great singer she was or what a great actress she was or how she had great comedic timing? Of course she was gorgeous but that’s all people wanted from her. Hitting 36 and still not being seen as anything but a dumb blonde must have been pretty devastating. Kim is no Marylin but she’s going lose her looks someday and she’ll lose her identity along with them. If she even has a sense of identity at all..
I would love to hear you play. Your story is 100% appreciated and I hate you have to go through shite like that. When I was a kid, I took pictures for one of those modeling contests that would be in seventeen, teen, and ym. The very first thing my dad said, I was eleven, is that sex sells. I took a vow that day to not do that, to find another way.
@Mandy: To me it doesn’t sound like YOU objectified YOURSELF, it sounds like THEY objectified YOU. You took a sexy photo of yourself, but that action all by itself doesn’t make you an object instead of a person or mean that you were putting all your eggs in the ‘sexy’ basket and basing your worth on sexiness. Sounds like they’re the ones with the one-dimensional view. You don’t have to take the blame for their sexism though. And I’m sorry that happened to you.
She wasn’t slut shaming.
Debates like these are why I’m well and truly done with feminism. I’m so tired of the misogyny, white supremacy and ethnocentrism in the movement. The end game of my activism isn’t replacing the white supremacist patriarchy with a white supremacist matriarchy. I have as much tolerance for women telling me what to do with my body as I do for men. Why is it anyone’s job to tell grown women what they should and shouldn’t do with their bodies? Why are we never allowed full ownership of our bodies? Why must everyone have a say? Why must our autonomy always come with a “but”.
Of all the ways we all act in ways that conform to patriarchal standards, it’s pretty telling that sexuality is always the one that people get up in arms about. I bet most here wouldn’t take very kindly to being told they were particicipating in their own oppression by wearing make-up, or heels, or dressing modestly (yes that’s a patriarchal standard too), or by rejecting ‘femininity’ entirely.
Also, I disagree with what she’s saying here, I see far more women who hide behind feminism to justify their internalised misogyny.
Yes!!! Thank you!!!
Amen to your entire comment! And don’t worry, there are many of us who agree with you even though we still identify as feminists.
I can bet with anything that if it was some famous “attention seeking” hot guy posting a selfie only covering his junk nobody would take issue. THAT is the fundamental difference here.
On another note I wonder if Neighbours 2 will be any good? I see that Chloe is starring in it.
I would take issue with it. I hated when John Stamos posed with his ass all out. What was the need for that other than attention? It’s the same whether a male or female does it. At least to me it is.
I shouldn’t have said “nobody”. I should have said the “majority wouldn’t.
i thought it was hilarious and awful that he did that. I would take issue with a guy doing it too. I’m an equal opportunity prude plain and simple.
I do see what some of you are saying about women being allowed to do anything they want with their bodies. of course they can. But I think it’s just as valid a point that women consider that, there are options for women, other than getting naked.
But Elle, I’m sure all their reasons for the double standard would be totally feminist. Women are only asked to be more modest with their bodies for the greater good of all women and girls, and never because we’re socialized to blame disrespect and other women who do anything with their bodies besides saving them for private relationships, People ONLY have a problem with Kim Kardashian.
I think Chloe is saying that yes, slut shaming IS a very real thing that happens in society so that is why Kim shouldn’t press the “woe is me, I’m the victim of slut shame!” button and ‘hide behind’ it every time she gets criticized for being an inappropriate famewh*re.
So when I take nudes and send them to my husband (because this is a thing that I do, so please by all means tell me how I’m internalizing patriarchy) does that make me a slut? Does it negate the fact that I’ve only had intercourse with three poeple at the age of 37 and always been careful about who I share myself with? Does it take away the ten years of work I’ve had to do to get over being raped, to even be able to enjoy my sexuality at all? Does it erode my education and my six figure job? Does it take away the certificate in women’s studies that I earned in college by doing the exact kind of critical thinking people are supposedly spouting here? Because it really sounds like some of you are arguing that people can’t be multi faceted, which is a failure of logic. Hate to break it to all of you, because you seem to think otherwise, but one can be smart and accomplished AND sexual at the same time. They’re not mutually exclusive.
Oh I forgot that doesn’t matter bc this is “only” about Kim k, the one celeb we CAN slut shame, bc….why exactly? Oh right. Because you don’t personally approve of how she chooses to express herself.
Confused. The people making that argument are simultaneously buying into the whole modesty/Madonna/whore nonsense-that has been promulgated and reinforced by the patriarchy-in order to make said argument. How can you argue that your particular internalization is somehow more moral and right than the ones you don’t approve of? Ie, Kim’s posting nude selfies?
We’ll all do better when we stop thinking about the world in such binary terms.
Because that’s private between you and your husband – not public. Sharing something like that with your husband only adds to the intimacy shared between just you two. Big, huge, mammoth difference.
I think that this body policing stuff and slut-shaming thing coming from otherwise pretty traditional/strict feminists is acknowledging the unspoken violence that occurs as a result of high profile female figures selling their body as an image to be consumed. Yes, it’s their right; yes it might be empowering – and if in your personal life you take nude pictures (a selfie is a picture, it does not need a new word!!!/off topic) and feel empowered, fine. But aren’t you typically just sharing that image with people you think you can trust? Because all those arguments about how empowered you feel apply the same way to a sex tape (imo), and if you had made a sex tape that was then shown to thousands/millions of people you didn’t know, people no longer hold up the view that it is empowering. Why? Because it’s personal? Then the feminists against nude pictures simply have a different boundary. But for me, personally, I abhor this stuff, because it makes men (generally) feel entitled to my body. It makes men think that if I dress ‘immodestly’, if I wear clothes that ever show my figure, I’m craving attention and/or I’m asking for it. Ok, not just men, clearly by some comments here. But the threat of violence and taking away my ownership and agency of my body because I’m ‘tempting’ them, is very, very real. And I truly think that the prevalence of nude pictures being presented to the public in the way that they are (there’s not an equal amount of very ‘unsexy’ pictures) makes that happen. I also think this is applicable to men, however generally the threat of violence is not present. This translates to cat-calling as well.
Totally agree JJ!
Some misogynists would say yes you are, while other misogynists would say no you’re not because it’s private/for your husband, (see, JenniferJustice).
Your comment was excellent by the way.
@Jean: So basically your answer to fighting victim-blaming…..is that women should be more conservative with their bodies and sexuality by not posing nude or not presenting themselves as sexy/sexual in public ? (Or were you just explaining the way some people think?) I don’t think your intent is bad, but the whole “Immodest women like you are the reason why we get raped/blamed for rape” school of feminism isn’t the solution to victim-blaming- it’s part of the problem.
@OtakuFairy
Ah no – I wasn’t presenting any argument about fighting victim blaming (mainly because I don’t really have one that I think works). I wish I did, but what I generally do with this particular stuff (body-shaming, sex tapes, etc) is just ignore it, because… well, I’m not all that interested (If someone I knew wanted an opinion, that would be different, I guess.). However the commentary is pretty awful, and it’s hard to get away from. I tried – however inarticulately – to convey my frustration with that.
I don’t think women should be more conservative, and what you said is exactly what I mean – I meant to point out this is a part of the ‘logic’ for slut-shaming. The slut-shaming is what makes me (well, not exactly) scared (wary?) of wearing ‘immodest’ clothing. It doesn’t personally prevent me from wearing what I want, but there are times when I’m really scared that people will attack me for it (also, if I was attacked, people would undoubtedly ask what I was wearing). So maybe you think it’s a very obvious part of this attitude, I was just pointing it out.
However, I think it’s wrong to reduce that thought to “Immodest women like you are the reason why we get raped/blamed for rape”. I’m not actually blaming the ‘immodest women’, I’m blaming the attitudes that are accepted in relation to them. It’s more, “you talking about immodest women like that contributes to violence against women”. That men are educated to look at an ‘immodestly’ dressed person and go ‘my right’ is my problem. The way this is reported just adds to that for me. At the same time, I think women can think that with men – like leering at six-pack abs is totally fine regardless of how it makes the man feel. I have a problem in general with cat-calls, because I think a compliment is just as good, but I think that probably comes down to personal preference…
The point I was trying to make with the sex tape thing is that it’s the same to me. I don’t think nude pictures are more empowering than a sex tape, quite honestly. In an ideal world, I’d think that neither of these two things would be remarkable, because your choice. The fact that they are, and that there’s even a distinction between how they are treated is another symptom of slut-shaming to me. I mean that in my mind, Kim K’s sex tape would be as empowering as her nude pictures had it been shared by her rather than leaked, however much that might be.
Ok. I get what you’re saying. 🙂
@Anon33 I agree so much with you.
Slut-shaming: women are attacked for dressing or appearing sexually provocative or displaying sexual behaviours/desires that society considers unacceptable often due to traditional principles of sexual behaviour. And when people bitterly call her “attention whore” “fame whore” for showing her body, why don’t you just call her a whore while you’re at it? You are walking a fine line as it is.
I don’t mind what she tweeted or said. I do think, however that she has confused adequately and accurately.
I have a daughter and I want her to grow up to be a proud, strong, intelligent independent feminist woman. Honestly, who do YOU think I prefer that she “idolize,” (as all young girls tend to do)..Chloe or KK?
NO BRAINER
Wow, I am really really surprised at Kaiser’s take on this! I’ve been a radical feminist for decades, and I am utterly Team Chloe on this one. Kim K is repugnant and EXTREMELY harmful to young girls – both in a regressive sense (putting herself on display entirely on male terms of sexualization) and in a very modern way (presenting her entirely artificial body as though it was something to be proud of, instead of embracing nature’s beauty). Meanwhile Chole is offering a clever and interesting approach to feminist beauty. I hope all little girls follow her role modelling.
The day I see A Kayne West or any man for that matter be naked on Twitter, shake their ‘booty’ for a music video or get naked on a wrecking ball is the day I’ll beleive this bull about empowerment .. in the meantime, bottom line 99.9% of men looking at Kim’ nudie had onlly one thing in mind and beleive me it wasn’t Empowerment !!!!
Since straight, cis dudes don’t have the same experiences women do with the issues of modesty, slut-shaming, victim-blaming, and sexism, why would you expect a whole lot of them to talk about being empowered by being able to openly reject modesty?
Isn’t it redundant for the K’s to ‘hide’ behind ‘slut shaming’ since on their tv show, the women call each other slores? Which I assume is a slut and a whore? Yes, I have sadly watched that much of their show.
Interesting posts. I don’t disagree with Chloe and I also think you can be naked all day and everyday if you want to and post it on IG. But own it totally. Kim did not own it, she became upset when the response was not what she desired. She seems disconnected from the image she has crafted for herself and how she is perceived by the public.
Women have been selling their bodies since the beginning of time for power, love, fame, money or security and this is nothing new or groundbreaking. The power balance can be argued but when a woman ages her opportunities to use her body become greatly diminished and so does her power as well. Therefore the power has always been held by the patriarchal hierarchy and not the woman in the end. She owns the choice and the consequences good and/or bad but not usually the power unless she has more to offer than just sex and a body.
For some women it is all they have and there is no choice involved. It is about survival but then they are still discarded when their looks no longer coincide with the male’s youthful feminine ideal(small waist, large breasts, hips, big eyes, and full lips) nonetheless.
Kim gives away her power because she relies on the attention of strangers for empowerment and not herself. If she truly felt beautiful she wouldn’t need to fake her image with aggressive photoshop. There is nothing deeper about it. It’s about vanity.
This has always been my thing about her. She can’t take criticism and discuss herself confidently. Isn’t feminism about being strong and firm about our choices?
When faced with issues like this I ask myself if my response would be different if it was Rob K and not her. I would still wonder why he felt compelled to do it and would feel exactly the same.
If he. did this he would also receive negative remarks about his vanity and if he had loads of surgeries we would ridicule him mercilessly without shrouding it in any shaming or policing.
Sure with some people there was some shaming going on and policing by some but I also think it was boredom with her selfies and not offering anything else. I think it’s about Kim mostly and a lot of people’s visceral responses to her and how she presents herself outside of her nudity.
I am far from conservative and am a feminist but I don’t want it watered down and used as a silencer.
She’s just 19, so I’ll give her a pass. At this age, I was pretty ignorant about so many subjects, feminism included. I also don’t think she’s all wrong either.
Curious fact: When a man says words to a woman with sexy clothes, I call him an unpolite jerk. When I am the woman, I feel guilty.
I can see both sides of this coin, but for me Chloe ftw. I think her ideals and what she represents are articulated very well, it’s just getting dissected to minute details. She’s standing for something, give me that over someone who just wants praise and money any day. That’s the difference between Chloe and her feminism and Kim’s supposed one. Kim stands for nothing and banks on controversy, not what she may intellectually bring to the table. Say what you will about Chloe and her ideas, but she is smart and talented. What is Kim again?
If KK were able to actually feel “shame” we would not of been afflicted with 10 seasons of Kardashians. Good 4 Chloe. The only way to affect the future is to call BS on the present.
She’s really annoying, hypocritical and preachy for someone who picks characters aimed to appeal towards pedophiles. I mean, that’s her fanbase on reddit. I mean, I hate reddit but I’ve seen many grown men swoon over her even in their 30s. I know she’s 19 NOW but this has been happening for YEARS. I don’t watch a lot of her movies but a few that come to mind: Hick, dark shadows, the equalizer. In all of these films she was portrayed as a very sexual character. Making cat noises with sexual innuendos on her bed, playing a prostitute etc.
All came out when she was underage and looked like a 13 year old. It’s one thing to play those kinds of characters every now and then, however she is TYPE CASTED as jailbait in pretty much all of her movies. It really disturbs me because it seems like it’s done on purpose for men to fantasize about. She still looks like a 13 year old even if she is 19(?) now! If I say something like this, people jump down my throat.
You know what? I just can’t with this girl. So preachy when what she promotes is SO much worse. This is coming from someone who can’t stand kim k. Chloe might be clean and prim in real life but I don’t respect her film choices or how she portrays her characters. I know it’s called acting but she’s known for those kinds of “lolita” roles. It’s gross. And CHLOE has the nerve to slut shame kim? Oh my.
The only relevant thing about this piece is correcting the notion that the criticism Moretz received came from her followers when it came primarily from Kadashian’s.
I’m pretty sure that slut-shaming is a term that men invented. KIDDING. But I see Chloe’s point on this one. Women who think they’re doing all women, everywhere some sort of favor of liberation by stripping on social media are really just re-enforcing sexist views about how women are “supposed to look.” Let’s be honest – Kim’s not posting her titties online to express her sense of power. She’s doing it to get a reaction (primarily out of men). Sure, that’s her right. But if it means other women around the world who haven’t had plastic surgery like her are shunned by men for not fitting into a false societal norm… it’s not a feminist act.
I can see why Kim has to keep putting her naked body out there. I mean, what else does she have to offer? She can’t sing, she can’t act, she can’t write a movie or a TV script. If we aren’t looking at/talking about her nude photos, she loses relevancy, doesn’t she? Her naked photos, on social media, in magazines, in Kanye’s videos, all drive her other business ventures- the video game, the reality shows, etc. So I guess that is Chloe’s point? Without the naked photos every couple days, what is Kim? What does she offer?
Seriously time for new glasses – I thought she said that slut-shaming was a “big, fiery BOTTOM to hide behind.”
Chloe is awesome