I don’t have the time to regularly listen to Marc Maron’s WTF podcast, but when I have listened to specific interviews – the John Oliver interview, the Barack Obama interview – I’m always impressed by the conversations. Maron is a good interviewer, and he creates a space for interesting and funny dialogues. Maron’s latest interview is with Bruce Springsteen. Bruce is, as we know, a big-time liberal/progressive guy. He wasn’t all over the place for Hillary Clinton last year, but he did endorse her and make one late-in-the-campaign appearance for her campaign. Bruce hasn’t said much since Donald Trump was elected president… until this interview. You can hear the podcast here. Some highlights:
His reaction to Trump’s electoral victory: “I’ve felt disgust before, but never the kind of fear that you feel now. It’s as simple as the fear of, is someone simply competent enough to do this particular job? Do they simply have the pure competence to be put in the position of such responsibility?”
Why people voted for a ‘toxic narcissist’: “I understand how he got elected…” Many Americans were “effected deeply by deindustrialization and globalization and the technological advances and you have been left behind, and someone comes along and says ‘I’m gonna bring the jobs back,'” as well Trump’s promises to combat against terrorism with Islamophobia and illegal immigration by building a wall. “These are very powerful and simple ideas. They’re lies, they can’t occur. But if you’ve struggled for the past 30 or 40 years – and this has been the theme of much of my creative life for all those years – if someone comes along and offers you something else… it’s a compelling choice… There’s plenty of good, solid folks that voted for Donald Trump, as well as people who had other agendas.”
The new wave of hatred: “When you let that genie out of the bottle — bigotry, racism, intolerance… they don’t go back in the bottle that easily if they go back in at all. Whether it’s a rise in hate crimes, people feeling they have license to speak and behave in ways that previously were considered un-American and are un-American. That’s what he’s appealing to. My fears are that those things find a place in ordinary, civil society.”
He’s not giving up: “America is still America. I’m still believe in its ideals, and I’m going to do my best to play my very, very small part in maintaining those things.”
[From EW & Rolling Stone]
Yeah, pretty much. When Barack Obama was elected, I heard some people say that they didn’t really recognize America, and I always felt like, “Well, this IS America – multicultural, tolerant, progressive and willing to embrace an intelligent, thoughtful man.” Now I feel like all of those people mystified in 2008 – how did we get here? Is this really America? This isn’t the America I know. And while I love Bruce and I think he’s a thoughtful, intelligent, interesting man, I really need everyone to stop making excuses for Trump voters. It makes me sick to my stomach.
Today is @springsteen day on https://t.co/KBRiPQLutw! I returned to Jersey to talk to the Boss! Great guy. Great talk! Do it up! pic.twitter.com/gLTxPsJK06
— WTF with Marc Maron (@WTFpod) January 2, 2017
There is little variation in white supremacist hate group ideologies: https://t.co/4UF4Wkqmrp pic.twitter.com/Ox6ipPZKjX
— Vox (@voxdotcom) January 3, 2017
Photos courtesy of WENN.
While driving through Tennessee, I saw a billboard. It was black with white letters.
It read, “Trump: Let’s take our country back.”
It was the most terrifying, implicitly racist piece of propaganda I’ve ever seen in public with my own eyes.
And those good, solid folks who voted for Trump? They’re okay with this kind of implicit and explicit racism. They’re okay with pussygrabbers. They said, “ok,” to all of it. No passes.
No one gets a pass, but Trump voters motivations need to be understood and addressed if progressives want to take back the government in 2020. It’s easy to dismiss Trump voters as ignorant racists, but right now those ignorant racists have political power they have not had in years, if ever, and they are not going to use it to push for traditional Democratic remedies.
I don’t dismiss them, but I also don’t let their cries of “BUT THE ECONOMY,” distract me from the fact that a handful of jobs that will never come back were more important to them than basic human decency. And sure, they need to be understood. Just like they tried so hard to understand Barack Obama.
@Shambles You must have a living wage job, otherwise you would be more sympathic to families who live one step away from homelessness for years on end. I am extremely fortunate that I have been able to live without the stress and desperation of being one illness or car repair away from total destitution. But for people,who do, it is the economy. It is always the economy.
@megan agreed. we will not win if we continue to dismiss everyone who voted for him. That’s what got us here.
Thank you. The lack of willingness to learn from the very real democratic mistakes and continually blame others with no look in the mirror is part and parcel to the result we got. In particular I’m so tired of demonizing the working poor who voted what they believed to be their interests. It’s ok — in fact encouraged and expected of others — but not this demographic? And almost as bad as demonizing them is the inevitable labels of ” ignorance …because they don’t know what is good for them”. They are already demoralized — demonizing them and diminishing them as incompetent is no way to win future elections.
@CItyHeat
but they often ARE voting against their best interest, how is that demonizing them? It’s telling the truth.
And it’s not just working poor that voted for Trump, I think saying that is doing the opposite – sanctifying them and painting them as victims. I see troves of them shouting that they have successful businesses and work hard and that they will finally force the liberals to get off their butts and do some work, so it’s a lot more nuanced than you present it in order to make us feel sorry for them.
The problem is there was no other motivation besides racism and a superiority complex.
There is nothing else to address, there is nothing left to save, to discuss, to agree on.
#Aren.. ITAWY..
the people that are going to suffer the most are going to be some of the people that voted for him. Poor minorities have always had to struggle and make ends meet. They live paycheck to paycheck and know sadly how to manage. Many of the Trump supporter are people that wanted the world to look like they remember. The way they think is the right way. They felt that people of color were taking over. And Trump said the things they have wanted to hear. Problem is the world will never look that way again. And the people that sat it out in protest are the dumbest ones of all. It is a smoke screen. And OMG when reality hits it is going to be explosive. He has more to fear from those people than the ones that saw him for what he was. They are the ones that will turn on him when they see that they voted for the lie.
@timbuktu. First, my reference to demonizing them is the “anyone who voted for Trump is (insert hate here)” tendency.
Now to their vote and your belief they didn’t vote in Their best interest. The problem is they don’t agree with you. And they view it as patronizing at best and insulting at worst. It’s calling them incompetent to choose for themselves…..and in their minds it’s judgement from people with no clue about them. HRC Couldn’t be bothered to visit their states to hear them and meanwhile they are judged by those from the coasts, the big cities, with the Paychecks that come every week in the exact same amount. Their vote was the ultimate desperate F you Way of being heard.
And yes — plenty of upper middle class voted for Trump too for very different reasons. Some not so palatable. It isn’t all one thing or the other. My defense is clearly of the working poor. And my criticism is of the in the inability of some to face the facts of this Democratic loss and deal with its lessons. All of them. Including the ones the rest with the DNC party itself and a deeply flawed campaign.
Recognizing the needs of working poor families isn’t romanticzing them, it is acknowledging that there are communities in America that have been left behind and if Democrats want their votes, they better do something about it.
Just because the other side vilifies liberals is not an excuse to ignore their needs. When they go low, you go high.
This was about hatred. Period. Hatred of the Other. Justified by ‘white economic anxiety” which turned out statistically to be a small minority. It was ‘me first, I don’t care what happens to the rest of you’. It was white, male privilege howling for blood. Just look at the stats, overwhelmingly voters for the Orange Abomination were white males and then white females. An overwhelming number of POC voted for Clinton. I am sure some of them are struggling, too.
You cannot reason with hatred. You do not reason with hatred. You fight it. You reorganise and you try to get all those shameful slackers who prize all Americans, humanity, the planet who didn’t vote to get out and vote next time and every time after that. All you can do is legislate hatred back into the cesspool it crawled from. It has now become legitimised with a rise in hate crimes and will soon be lawful.
ETA: As for the ‘working poor’? When the GOP does away with minimum wage, overtime, benefits, medicare, etc. there will no longer be a need to be anxious because they’ll be dead including the Other. I’m not seeing where the Orange Abomination addressed those issues except to promise jobs. Clinton did.
And let’s not polarise the coastal ‘elites’ with the common people. That meme is such a worn out canard. Stats say otherwise and the new reality of lawful hate has changed the conversation.
@Aren-Exactly. Nothing more needs to be said. So tired of this false narrative of “good, salt of the earth, well-meaning working class white folks who just want to earn a living wage” being trotted out every time we talk about Trump. Dog whistles for ages.
The simple truth that gets lost in this fictional narritive is that white wealthy voters handed the victory to Trump. But you know, that story just doesn’t engender the same amount of sympathy right?
ETA: @hmmmmm- Bravo, my friend. You said it all. 👏🏻
And the economy has been steadily improving for the past 7 years. Trump is going to trash it.
Very little of what went wrong with HRC’s campaign in 2016 will be relevant in 2018 or 2020 and I’m fed up with the endless preaching about it.
@CItyHeat
They don’t have to agree or disagree with ME. They can just look at facts and platforms. How many policies did the Republicans put in place to help the poor? How many tax breaks did they give to the poor? Republicans have been running on “tax breaks for the wealthy” platform for a long time, so, shouldn’t something have trickled down by now? If not, then your belief in Republican party is clearly misplaced, and not recognizing that IS ignorant and blind. I mean, how many statistics are out there saying that red states rely on federal funding more than blue states, that inordinate amounts of people who are against welfare ARE on welfare, for God’s sake.
A friend told me of a woman who voted for Trump because she doesn’t want Obamacare and welfare, yet her daughter is severely disabled and is entirely on welfare and her son is a recovering drug addict who gets thousands of dollars worth of help from the government. I’m sorry, but I’m not sure what I should think of her vote. That it’s intelligent and I just don’t get it?
As for the “coasts, big cities, paycheck”… I lived in flyover states longer than I lived on the coast. I also wasn’t born into privilege, in fact, I’m an immigrant. I came to this country with $300 in my pocket. I’m tired of being treated like Prince William. Let us not forget that Trump never had to worry about making ends meet (I have), yet his being more than comfortable is a sign of intelligence and worthy of admiration, but my very modest middle class comfort is stolen from poor Americans and a sign of my privilege and arrogance?
@Megan and @CITYHEAT
PLEASE let’s stop repeating the lie that Trump voters are the poor and unemployed. Hillary actually won that demographic. Trump only got a percentage of those votes mainly from the White men/women. Only 25% of the population voted!
Trump voters HAVE jobs and ARE making greater than $60,000 a year! Also most of them don’t even live where POC or immigrants live. Their anxiety was about their CHILDREN/GRANDCHILDREN not having the same opportunities. Meaning working for those industries that will soon all be shipped over seas.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/08/12/a-massive-new-study-debunks-a-widespread-theory-for-donald-trumps-success/
Megan, very insightful comment. Not all Trump voters carry a hunting gun and wear plaid. Democrats misunderstood the deep frustration of many Americans and need to re-engage with these people on a level that is honest and compassionate and offer real solutions that speak to them.
That is the problem. Everyone in America is hurting, but the voters for Trump are going to be hurt the most. They will not understand that Donald Trump is only out for himself and his billionaire friends. There is a reason why the jobs are outsource no sizeable finances, and yet he wants to tax the corporate boss of the jobs being outsourced and keep jobs for workers. If that is the case, they will pay this tax but the taxes will go out on the workers pay wages, that is 35%. So basically, the workers are getting hit hard.
Obama has put people to work and given access to healthcare to everyone… and now JACKASSESS REPUBLICANS AND DONALD TRUMP want to take that away from them and the nail in the coffin is they want to socialized Social Security. THOSE POOR ELDERLY PEOPLE and the my generation and younger will worked for our money till we dead. NOW TELL ME, DOES THAT SOUND LIKE MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN.
Good luck with you country America. You will need it.
I don’t think Bruce is really giving them a pass. In a nice way he basically says some Trump voters were sold a bill of goods that Trump won’t be able to deliver, but they really want the bill of goods. That being the good paying manufacturing jobs. He did say that other Trump voters had other agendas, i.e. the bigots and racists. The reality is unless we change the electoral college we have to change this small group of people’s minds to win again. Understanding their motives does help.
Also, the one thing that is never discussed is how poorly the Democrats sell their successes. The economy and unemployment was in the dumper at President Obama’s inauguration, it’s actually pretty good now. Obamacare is a perfect example, people don’t really know what it is. When you parcel out its pieces and ask voters if they like it they do, but say it’s Obamacare and more hate it. A lot of the 20 mil people who did not have healthcare previously voted for Trump too. We will see what happens when they lose insurance and unemployment rises, but hey he’s making America great again.
Thank you Hmmm, Kitten, LP, and all for stepping in.
I think drawing all trump voters w the same broad brush stroke is dangerous, for it is an intentional aversion to seeing the many shades of gray in our country that lurk between the more blatant black and white. Intentional blindness like that is a kind of ignorance, as well. I know of people who voted for Trump out of simple desperation for the economy, and they are neither evil or mindless. Perhaps some of them failed, from their urgent fears, to see the whole picture–to see what Trump is truly about–but FEW people see the whole picture, those who ardently loathe Trump included. As much as I dislike the idea of the people who voted for Trump, I have to know the reasons WHY they would cast such a vote—and there are DIFFERENT reasons–before condemning an entire population one and all.
Madailein:
But, you see, I’m not painting them with a broad brush. I’m not making generalizations. I’m literally stating a fact. The people who cast their ballot for Donald Trump quite literally looked at a candidate who spouted racism, bragged about sexual assault, was endorsed by White Surpremacists, and countless other atrocious facts, and they thought he should be the President. That simply is what it is.
Being a Trump supporter is a CHOICE. It’s not an ethnicity, a sexual orientation, or even a religion, and Trump and his people have no problem painting those people with a broad brush. But almost everything I just listed cannot be helped, like the skin color you’re born with. Choosing to vote for Donald Trump, however, is a choice. And I will call out every single person who made that choice.
I’m so sick of being told to understand people who explicitly chose ignorance and intolerance. It’s not as nuanced as you make it out to be. Every single person who voted for Trump was okay enough with everything Trump says and is to want him to lead the country. That includes all the ugly stuff. The end.
@megan I am one of those folks who is always one emergency away from complete destitution, and I still have no sympathy for Trump voters. I can’t understand how anyone could look at Trump and think “oh yeah, electing THIS GUY will fix my problems! All those bankruptcies just make him a GREAT businessman! This dude definitely gets me and my needs!” No. Full stop. Not everyone who lives paycheck to paycheck voted for him. People who voted for him voted for hate. Point blank. Period.
You know that “horrible” economy that Trump screamed about at every rally he had? On Jan 21st, he will start talking about the “great” economy under his administration and all his voters will agree that he gave them 4.8 unemployment, 15 million new jobs and a booming stock market not President Obama. He’s a grifter and a liar and he seems to have found a willing audience to overlook his ignorance and uninterest in policy or government, narcissism, misogyny, racism, terrible business practices and numerous sexual assaults. I really worry for this country. Make America Great again was just a very loud dog whistle for Make America white again.
CItyHeat says:
I voted for Clinton but did not want to. I am a democrat. The democratic party screwed themselves and us by not nominating the best candidate. One thing you can say about the republicans is that at least it was a competition for the nomination. The democrats promised Clinton the nomination when she lost to Obama 8 years ago. They gave her the secretary of state job to add to her resume to be president. She is loathed by many people. They had to have known that. And who wants another retread? Clinton? Bush? We needed new blood and people voted for new blood.
Now we are stuck with not only a president that is not qualified but very scary in many ways. The democrats need to do a serious lessons learned and change by the next election cycle.
Unfortunately, a lot of good people are going to suffer the next 4 years. I think in a way this is good for the country. For the people that voted for him even though it was counter to their own interests – your fault if you lose your health insurance. For the people that voted for a third party candidate knowing that they would never win and actual help Trump win – maybe next time you’ll think a little more about those consequences. For the people that didn’t vote at all – you have NO reason or right to complain about anything.
We have a lot in common …almost your entire post is spot on IMO. Not sure I agree 3rd party helped Trump win. In fact I’m sure I read some polling data that showed most would have voted for Trump over Hillary if they had no 3rd party choice. (MAybe WSJ I think).
It’s reasonable to assume that most of the libertarian vote would have gone to Trump, the stein vote to HRC. With Johnson getting more votes than stein, that would have equaled more Trump votes.
So it’s likely the popular vote would have been much much closer without 3rd party voters.
Thanks for sharing.
“The democrats promised Clinton the nomination when she lost to Obama 8 years ago.”
That is just nonsense. Democrats VOTED for Clinton during the primary process, millions more than for Bernie. Americans VOTED for Clinton during the election, millions more than for Trump.
Let’s stop pretending that Clinton’s nomination was a political favor organized by insiders. She was the most qualified candidate to run for President in many decades, she knew the issues inside and out, and the people voted for her.
Bernie threw out misinformation about trade, and Clinton didn’t clear it up so as not to offend his supporters. That is what cost her the election. Trade issues were so important to voters in states who are heavily weighted because of the unproportional allocation of electoral votes. Blue collar jobs didn’t leave because of NAFTA, the majority were lost to automation.
Tiffany – nothing new, painting women’s actions in the language of failure . The night of the election, from one network to the other, it was “if Hillary loses this state” but “if Donald wins that state”. We have to be conscious about the language of failure and fight it’s application to any individual. It’s poisonous and insidious.
Of course, I thought I was numb after Carrie Fisher died, but to hear the Clintons will be attending the Inauguration? The WTF weirdness just continues into 2017. When will this ludicrous appeasement to massive ego ever end? Does he have something to blackmail these people with? I used to just be curmudgeonly, now I’m just downright paranoiac. Meanwhile people sit here arguing about what “legitimate” feminism is. Argue about it later. Divided, we fell.
To paraphrase the utterly brave and truth-telling Tess Rafferty, if someone voted for Trump, maybe they’re not racist, but they sure as hell are OK with selling the rope to the lynchers. I know Springsteen is trying to make sense of this mess and is trying to be conciliatory in order to heal the country (much like Anthony Bourdain), but really. Trump voters are, at the very least, totally selfish: “Hey we don’t care if Trump’s an inexperienced idiot, loves Russia, Putin and Julian Assange, hates the CIA, is a misogynist, a racist and intolerant of certain religions – as long as he gives us tax breaks and the fantasy of bringing blue collar jobs back to the US, he’s A-OK!”
For these reasons, I’ll never believe that ANY Trump supporters are “good, solid folks.” It just doesn’t add up.
I’m extremely agitated and sick to my stomach this morning. The House Judiciary Committee voted in a secret meeting late yesterday to gut the independent Office of Congressional Ethics and bring most ethics reviews back in House to them. It goes to the full House floor today. With what we know about Trump’s conflicts, this is incredibly disturbing. I have been emailing and leaving voice mail messages all over Capitol Hill since late last night and I’m demanding the resignations of those who did this. I know that won’t happen but I want it on record that I demanded it.
It feels like the beginning of the end, doesn’t it? As in, people will look back and say, how did that happen? Why’d they let it happen?
But honestly, what can we do? I have been wondering about this for a long time, and I loved reading “the Book thief”: I’m sure there were a lot of reasonable Germans who watched in horror what their country was becoming, too, but short of putting their life and – worse – the life of their family on the line, they couldn’t really do anything.
I really think people can be unstoppable if united as an overwhelming majority, which is why politicians have always found ways to divide us.
@Timbuktu There are many great organizations gearing up to fight Trump’s agenda. Please consider volunteering or donating to these groups, or becoming more active in local politics since change starts from the ground up. There is strength in numbers and it’s time for us all to stand together.
My favorite groups are:
Brennan Center for Justice
Southern Poverty Law Center
Public Citizen
League of Women Voters
Natural Resources Defense Council
@Megan
I live in a very blue state, so I am reasonably happy with my state’s politics and do get involved on a very local level.
I will consider your other advice, thank you.
It is the beginning of the end. This is how it starts – gutting the OCE will ensure that Republicans are never held accountable for their malfeasance. This is just one of many steps taken by Republicans over the years toward ending transparency in government, and you simply cannot have a functioning democracy without transparency (Republicans also want to fine people for using cell phones, etc. to take videos, which is the only way the Democrats’ sit-in for gun control was broadcast to the public, since the Republicans had C-Span turned off. They also want to be able to sanction Congresspeople for “disorderly conduct” or being “disruptive,” which is almost more troubling to me than gutting the OCE).
And there is nothing we can do. It’s too late. The people no longer have any control over any of this; Republicans want to repeal the ACA right away without a debate, and they’ll continue with their goals of privatizing everything regardless of the public’s opinion, because they are no longer beholden to the people. Thanks to gerrymandering, the gutting of the Voting Rights Act, and Citizens United, the Republicans don’t have to worry about getting re-electing. I honestly don’t think we’ll ever see another Democratic majority in the House or Senate, or another Democratic president for that matter (although, given Trump’s tweets last night insulting North Korea, Iran and China, I doubt this country will even exist in a year’s time).
I’ve been trying to stay positive but I can’t anymore. I’m resigned to the fact that the America I knew is gone, and that we are at a very high risk right now for nuclear war. That’s why I fundamentally disagree with Springstein’s assertion that there are some “good” Trump voters out there. There just aren’t. They voted for this; even if they are not openly racist, they are, at the very least, willfully ignorant, and I cannot forgive someone for their ignorance when the stakes are this high.
Someone … a former friend with whom I’d lost touch … kept popping up on my FB posts with political comments he thought were ‘funny.’ Last week the rant — somehow broadening out to all people criticising about Trump – called me Senator McCarthy and asked how my HUAC is going. So ignorant, given how McCarthy enforcer Roy Cohn was Trump’s mentor. Given that I doubt that person had any idea about that, it is likely he picked it up from right-wing media. And it would be a harbinger of the next wave of projection, this time coming from the reactionaries in the House. Getting rid of independent investigation is probably just the first strike. It’s going to go fast and be brutal.
Yes, Light Purple, with all of Trump’s obvious and egregious conflicts of interest, combined with his history of shady business practices, the GOP are removing a non-partisan agency that could have held him accountable. Why? Because they’re so worried, I think, about having this Republican President undermined or even impeached that they’re knocking down the safety measures meant to protect our democracy from the rampant corruption of someone like Donald Trump. It’s now party above all else, even above the most basic — and nessessary — principles of democracy.
“It’s now party above all else, even above the most basic — and nessessary — principles of democracy.”
it’s been like that in the GOP for decades, now. they don’t care about what happens next, they just care that they won and have the power. that’s why they were never about working across the aisle with Obama, they just wanted to stop him. rather than do good for the country and their constituents, they just wanted to obstruct Obama, because that, for them, was “winning”.
They even voted to remove language requiring them to report pedophilia. Because no congressional representative was ever a pedophile. Oh wait, except for former Republican Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert.
Yes. It’s party, meaning it’s power above all else. But they’ve been like this for a long time.
“the GOP are removing a non-partisan agency that could have held him accountable”
From my understanding, the Ethics committee (OCE) was reviewing the actions of members of the House of Representatives, not the President.
Nah – this was another stunt (like Pence at Hamilton and Ivanka on JetBlue) designed to make Trump look “presidential” by “bringing down” errant GOP reps with his “fearless tweets.” The House knew their constituents would go batshit crazy over this (and they did), but they also knew the US media would jump all over this to portray Trump as a “badass” who brought his party “to heel,” even though it was completely false. Why does anyone think the House GOP reps backed down so fast from this?
The American media (owned by huge corporations) are complicit with Trump, and we can expect many more obvious stunts like this in the next 4 years (God forbid).
I saw your comment and thought to check in on Trumps twitter. And sure enough he is twatting about this as I type. He is saying that he agrees with the instigators of this that the current ethics oversight is “unfair” but that Congress should have bigger priorities like dismantling Affordable Care or fixing the tax laws that he never follows anyway. There is nothing about that tweet that doesnt make me want to spit in his face.
Yes, Trump isn’t concerned about the elimination of the OCE, he just thinks the timing looks bad.
Saying the timing isn’t right to pass something is a pretty standard political maneuver to stop a bad idea without pissing off your base. Is Trump clever enough to get that? Probably not, but some of his advisors are.
Totally gutted about this, I felt sick to my stomach all night as I dove further into what this ruling means. I’m simply disgusted, scared and feel such a sense of ominous foreboding.
Yes! Eliminating the oversight committee and effectively putting us all in the dark of what they are doing is terrifying! They work for us! We can have a tax revolt or revolution any day now!
Thanks to the outrage of the American people and weirdly POTUS elect they did backtrack! Yea I think for now… Keep the heat on these people!
@Lightpurple – House Republicans have reversed themselves. They will not pursue gutting the Ethics Office following Trump’s objections.
Goddess help us all when Trump is the voice of reason.
Thank you!!!! You are correct!
(4 min ago)
House GOP Withdraws Move to Gut Ethics Watchdog After Backlash
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/house-republicans-withdraw-move-weaken-ethics-watchdog/story?id=44528885
And this is a teachable moment!
THIS is how we will stop the worst of the Trump agenda. When they try to sneak it past the American people, we shine a light. We make noise. They can’t withstand the scrutiny!
Cause Trump isn’t going to be happy with any decision made outside of him. He will be the noisy neighbor that will call the cops for every little noise. The Republicans have no idea what they have on their hands. Am glad they reversed and the media called them out on it.
I don’t agree with that Vox graph. ALL of those groups are anti-feminist to some degree.
I’m a huge fan of less government and I would NOT consider myself a part of some nasty group…..the idea that anti gov’t people are a part of hate groups is OTT. J consider myself a feminist. I’m agnostic etc. etc.
I think they mean anti-government groups as in armed militias, not just people who believe in less government. Those groups are hate groups.
I have a hard time believing that only 1 of 7 hate groups listed up there are considered anti-feminist.
Yeah, most orthodox religious groups are not feminist.
So that christian group, that the Duggars would belong to, they are anti-feminist. They just don’t come out and say it.
Yeah that seems really inaccurate IMO.
OMG THIS…. THIS…. THIS….
The new wave of hatred: “When you let that genie out of the bottle — bigotry, racism, intolerance… they don’t go back in the bottle that easily if they go back in at all. Whether it’s a rise in hate crimes, people feeling they have license to speak and behave in ways that previously were considered un-American and are un-American. That’s what he’s appealing to. My fears are that those things find a place in ordinary, civil society.”
**************
And this is what I fear the most and this is what we are seeing. And it scares me to my heart. Because it is going to get so bad and it will take another generation to cover it again. He is the the worse thing. And I don’t understand how this country could do this to itself.
‘Genie from the bottle’ seems a poor comparison…it’s more like opening Pandora’s box. I’m so sick of these ‘jobs being shipped overseas’ crap..it’s 40 years too late. I grew up in the Midwest, and it was turned into the rust belt long ago..nobody has been sitting on a curb saying, gee, when is the factory comin’ back? Things change, not just for unskilled labor but for everyone. If all these poor souls wanted someone who understood them, they would’ve voted for someone who grew up middle class and gutted fish in the summer to make money..no, they think someone who has been catered to all his life gives a damn about them. This whole idea that ‘trump is evil, but, oh, if you voted for him, it’s not your fault’ is garbage.
You’re right, Kaiser – he is indeed a thoughtful and intelligent man, and his prodigious outpouring of lyrics and music over the decades, championing the common person and his/her dreams, fears, experiences and hopes, certainly attest to that sensitivity. I don’t think he’s necessarily “making excuses” for Trump voters – or perhaps I would use a different phrase – I think he’s really being very empathetic and trying to *understand* just how desperately left behind a lot of those people must have felt, to have sacrificed reason and common sense to vote for that maniac. (Of course, that’s not to ignore the solid group of far-right ideologues, Bible-bashing-“holier-than-thou”ers, bigoted haters, grasping capitalists, and all others for whom Trump really does represent something they believe in. The sad fact is that the people Springsteen is referring to are the ones who stand to lose _most_ under Trump’s regime). BTW: Springsteen’s autobiography, “Born to Run”, is garnering the accolades all over the place – solid positive reviews in The Guardian, New York Review of Books, etc. An all-around great guy.
Absolutely. Bruce often puts himself in the shoes of others to write his songs and that’s what he’s doing here. He’s previously said the the US, was ‘under siege by a moron’, so he obviously doesn’t think anything good about Trump. Also, he gets absolutely horrible things written about him by Trump trolls. Take a look at some of the YouTube comments sometimes. He is deeply beloved by many, but no matter how much he tries to not antagonize the people who vote for Trump, they are vicious towards him. I truely hope he stays safe.
I wish I shared his optimism, but I can’t. This country is finished as a Democratic Republic and one of the worst things to see is how even now, there are people still defending the Cheeto Messiah and his ilk. Like, House Republicans are voting to basically gut an independent Office of Ethics and one guy’s comment was “As long as it pisses off Obama, I’m good with this” and he probably isn’t alone in that mentality.
Most tyrannical governments have to work at least a little to take over and shut the opposition down, but not here, In America we can’t hand over our freedoms fast enough.
The sensible part of me understands that this is how dictators have gotten people to fall in linesince forever-provoke fear and uncertainty, find a convenient source of blame etc. But, so far I still can’t find it within myself to be understanding of the kind of people that voted for this idiot and continue to defend everything he says and does no matter how stupid, ugly and vicious.
Saw video of Trump speechifying at his Mar-a-lago NYE party. Wealthy majority by far white attendees. Applause when he spoke about tax cuts. Outrageous applause when he spoke of repealing Obamacare. To a roomful of people who in no way need, have or are affected by the existence or non existence of Obamacare. It is The Affordable Care Act. If it was referred to by its proper name most people wouldn’t be nearly so upset. They would most likely see the ACA’s weaknesses and deal with those realities. Instead they demonize Obama’s name and that is the dog whistle to which they react.
Fine if you don’t care for Obama or his policies. Trump has promised to make America white again and that is simply not going to happen. Demographics have been proving that for decades at this point. Putting white male faces on things will not change anything.
Industrialization, globalization and automation have occurred and will not cease. Jobs will not mysteriously reappear from huge companies. If Trump were serious he would be looking into how to enable long term growth in small and medium size businesses. There would be no discussion of bringing back dying or dead industries such as coal or steel. What jobs may come from those industries will require skilled or automated labor. Investing in re-educating people who have been in those industries would be of benefit.
I agree with much of what Bruce says but I also accept that I have little empathy for people who look at the Obama administration, say that was not the America I grew up with and recognized and now that we have Trump that I now have an America back that I recognize as the one I grew up with and are now pissed off that they are seen as racist.
We have elected a moron to lead our country. By virtue of temperament, lack of experience, on every level Trump is unqualified to be POTUS. I’m still trying to wrap my head around his statement that once he is briefed on the Russian hacking issue he will be able to provide an informed statement.
He would have the needed information had he been receiving the daily briefings offered him every day. As PEOTUS he receives the same info as POTUS. Yet he chooses not to because it is boring and repetitive. I repeat. Trump finds being briefed daily on our country’s safety, security and well being is unimportant to him. Fulfilling the responsibilities of the position he campaigned and was elected to doesn’t interest him.
I don’t hate the majority of the people who voted for him but as a woman and POC I’m pissed as hell at the crap I’ve dealt with since 11/9 and the increased crap I will face as of 1/20 because of their short sightedness.
POTUS governs ALL of us. Good, bad or indifferent. Sadly his supporters have elected very, very, very bad. They have voted against their own well being. I don’t even want to think about how angry they will be when they see the rights, civil liberties and privelidges they took for granted erode. Congress is not going to help until their butts are on the line. It only remains to be seen how much damage will be done.
I hope people will pay attention at the grassroots, local and state level when they go to vote next and the same whenever the next round of congressional elections come.
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾 Do you mind if I share this? With credit of course
If there’s an election. We think he’ll use an emergency to call for martial law and violate ordinary norms of civic life. And he will provoke a war. Hide your kids.
Take a look at automatic Selective Service registration in your state.
Beautifully stated.
Agree with everything except….. most of these people won’t be the one’s who get their civil rights taken away.
@Lynnie if you’re referring to my long winded statement. Share away😂
It’s done, next step. We need, allies, voters, education on issues if different areas, we need unbiased journalists giving the community facts. Get ready for the mid term election.
Name calling, bird flipping, crying and screaming in the faces of others accomplishes none of that.
No not all trump voters are racists, evil or stupid. They are the people we need to change the minds of. The people we need to meet us in the middle. Many voted because they lost or can no longer afford health coverage, lost jobs, had children shoved along in underfunded school, had family members in the military affected by Clinton’s time as Secretary of state. The vote wasn’t about race, there needs to be compromise on both ends if we want to quell bigotry.
I mean, if racism is at the top of our list, there is a lot we can do to help with other things the right desperately wants so less people have to suffer.
Well, I tried to analyze people I know who voted for Trump and they were none of those things.
All of them had jobs and were thriving, except 1. That 1 is comfortably retired and gets financial assistance from a Democrat son.
One of them just started her own business (but Obama’s economy sucks).
Two of them have medical-type businesses and are mostly pissed that they now have to provide healthcare to their employees. They won’t go broke over it, they live very very comfortably, but yes, their margin of profit probably shrunk under Obama.
None of them have special needs children or children in bad school districts, they all live in very posh communities with good schools.
So, as far as I can tell, their reasons for voting were the following:
1. Hate of “welfare queens”. All 3 business owners seem convinced that only they work hard. I have been insulted by them for being a teacher, my husband was insulted by them for being a federal worker – notice that neither one of us is a welfare queen, but we are still, apparently, “moochers”. I’m sorry, but that is not a rational argument I’m willing to “understand”.
2. Being anti-abortion and anti-choice, therefore always voting Republican no matter what.
3. Being anti-Muslim. One of those people is Jewish and she openly told me that since Ivanka’s husband is Jewish, she is confident that the Jewish minority won’t be touched, and every other majority does pose problems and needs to be put in check.
I’m sorry, but none of those positions are something I’m willing to compromise on and meet them middle-of-the-road.
A lot of my mom’s friends voted for Trump because upending the status quo and electing a woman scared them. It made my mom really sad to realize how deeply ingrained gender roles are for so many women of her generation.
Yikes. I have a dream for you.
Next time they are shitting on you, you ask them how much they write off as ‘business expenses’, and if every one of those ‘expenses’ is legitimately needed for their business.
Then you can bring up how having unwanted children forces unwed mothers to go on welfare, where they would be working instead. Or forced to give up the child to adoption and foster care, which costs tax payer dollars.
For the piece de resistance, you can print off 100 copies of Neimoller’s ‘First they came’ and shower your idiotic jewish lady friend.
Then my dream ends because these idiots are so self serving they cannot see beyond their own noses.
Have you read Paul Ryan’s pamphlet on what the right plans to do? They WANT to cause suffering. None of their goals will result in any positives for the working class, the poor, or even most of the middle class
This is why he’s such a twisted soul. It’s beyond “small government” ideology and into sadism.
Paul Ryan is a horrible Social Darwinist who belongs in the 19th century. Remember the British working class life expectancy of 40 or so? Ryan would be OK with it.It’s weeding out the weak, no?
PS, Social Darwinism was a solid precursor of Nazism.
Paul Ryan is a truly scary person. I don’t know why the media isn’t more aggressive in covering his insane vision for America.
Thanks. The myth of the “white working class” needs to be put to rest. A lot of Trump voters are doing fine economically. They may be ‘solid people’ but what does that mean, really? That they won’t set puppies on fire? That they’re not welfare cheats or food-stamp fraudsters or migrant workers or day laborers?
In my value code, they may be “solid” (IE what sounds to his mind like white working class) but they are not “good” and they voted in support of evil.
So tired of hearing about the “good Germans.”
Yep, it so happens that the highest concentration of my Trump-voting acquaintances was in California, and all of them are doing very very well.
Democratic-voting Californians were in for some rude surprises after the election…I’ve heard some stories like that too.
We don’t need to waste our time on those people. We need to waste our time on the 46% of the people who did not get out to vote at all. Find out who those people are and how to get them to vote for Democrats without throwing liberal values and lPOC under the bus to get votes.
Trump voters and supporters are a lost cause. I will continue to say this: if you can listen to what he said he was going to do and still thought it decided to vote for him, you are a racist or a racist enabler. You call it demonizing them, we call it “telling it like it is” ignoring their behavior for some faux Kumbaya hand-holding is not an option. Putting my anger aside to coddle them is no longer an option. Our opinions and place in this world is just as important as theirs.
They voted for a monster for a half-assed promise of making things better for them and only them. They stood by and listened and cheered for a man who has demonized so many “other” people for a pack of lies. Some of them voted for him, even though they know he was lying and it was against their interest. I will not stand by and not acknowledge how selfish and racist they were for what they did. We can eventually learn to move on but first they need to acknowledge the problem they created and then atone for the wrong they have done.
In order to change things, they have to open their eyes for themselves and see what havoc they have caused. We cannot move forward as a group if half of us are blind to where we are going and the other half is forced to coddle the blind.
Co-sign.
The Democratic party has failed miserably by following the Republicans over to the right; it lost its left wing and appears rudderless. Big money has been corrupting them too.
I wish I could save or share your comment because it’s full of truth.
agreed!!!
+1000000000, Aiobhan.
yes a million times on Voting in the midterms. Its really more important than the Presidential election.
If the Democratic party is ever going to win another election we have to stop demonizing each and every Trump voter. The more they are demonized by the left the less likely they will ever vote for a Democrat again. When Trump fails they are not going to come crawling back begging for forgiveness they will double down and vote for the guys who haven’t been calling them names and putting them in different categories.
The time for anger is gone, now it is time for solutions and plans.
Trump won by demonizing us and calling us names, all of us, as a very diverse group, we were all “libtards”, “snowflakes”, “moochers”, and – the funniest one of them all – “stupid” and “brainwashed”. His supporters on FB routinely reduce us to a horrible caricature even as “gracious” winners. Trump just called us “enemies” in his tweet.
I’m honestly not sure that the situation isn’t the exact opposite of what you’re saying.
Okay then you go continue to berate trump voters and spew your hatred for them, and I’ll go do community outreach that helps break racial stereotypes and push to continue register voters and raise awareness about elections and help people be informed on the issues.
We’ll meet back here in 2 years and we can see who changed more for the good.
@lingling yaasssss thank you.
People who berate Trump voters are just as likely to be politically active. I think it’s okay to try to process emotionally why your fellow citizens seem to be so hateful.
I totally get what you are saying but please do not forget that HRC called a good portion of Trump voters deplorables, and since the election trump voters have constantly been called racists, anti-feminists, etc. Name calling has been going back and forth, there is no innocent side to the name calling.
The time for excuses and name calling is over, it’s not going to get anyone anywhere.
@Lingling .. All Timbuktu is saying is that Trump supporters are still spewing the left as well. Not that we shouldn’t be doing everything we can do to change what we can.
She used “deplorable” ONE TIME and he and his supporters used overt or coded racist, sexist, xenophobic, anti-Semitic language countless times — they are not equivalent. Honestly, I think part of right-wing outrage was because she used a fancy dictionary word for ‘po white trash.’
@Who ARE These People? yes she said it once, but she said it. This is exactly what I am saying calling people “po white trash” is not going to get anyone anywhere. It’s not ok to call someone names because they “started it”.
@Lingling
what WATP said.
@kcat
and Trump called many people many horrible names. The difference is – HRC got punished for it, and he got rewarded, so now they continue to call people names. I’m really not sure that us taking the high road will be noticed by the other side and appreciated. Like, at all. In fact, I’m fairly sure we’ll be “p*ssies” for rolling over. They only yell tolerance when they see pushback and are quite oblivious to it when they encounter gracious behavior.
Don’t ask me what solution I propose: I obviously don’t think shouting matches and name calling IS a solution, I honestly don’t see one at all and it depresses me horribly. 🙁
Clinton said half of Trump-supporters belong in a basket of deplorables. Considering Trump had KKK members including David Duke, the Alt Right, etc as very vocal backers of his presidency, then how exactly was she wrong?
I think a lot of Trumpsters ARE deplorable. Sorrynotsorry.
Also, I’m tired of people shaming others for being rightfully angry. People come here to vent about our country going down the shitter. That doesn’t mean we’re out there throwing tantrums in Michaels or going on racist tirades in Starbucks like Trump-supporters. People have very fucking right to be pissed and if that means saying a few “mean” things, so be it.
Lingling, I’m convinced you’re doing the right thing, but, without giving away where I live, and of course without knowing where you live, I must say that I think it is practically impossible that a woman, and non-Caucasian to boot, would succeed in any outreach in my neck of the woods. Unless you possess the patience of a saint, the eloquence of Cicero, and a handgun, I don’t see how you could be successful, or even safe, where I live. Sorry, but it is that opaque and insular.
Maybe I’m re-projecting here, but I suspect that people who, sometimes with so much condescension, advise that we try to reach the working poor are themselves unfamiliar with them.
Incidentally, I do believe that the entire political class has screwed the blue collar, pink collar, and increasingly white collar Americans since at least the 80s. There must be a special ring in hell for the Chicago School of Economics.
THIS! As angry and upset as I get, you are absolutely right. We go high!!!! (and hopefully bring some of them with us)
By now the Democratic party has gone so high that it has floated away.
You can’t oppose and be nice at the same time.
Too many women are responding to the “go high” message because it seems like a “nice” means of avoiding anger and women are not “supposed to” be angry or show their anger. It’s almost like wearing a pantsuit has become some great act of rebellion — in 2016. I don’t get it. You can fight back without violating the law, but other than that, anger is a motivating force, and we shouldn’t have to search for the “good” in people who seem to have little interest in doing it.
Hear, hear, Who ARE These People. Maybe not call names, but I think good angry shouting is in order and should not be branded “spewing hate”.
YES WATP and Timbuktu.
(Also, HNY you guys)
I love coming here precisely BECAUSE people are so unapologetically angry and even *clutches pearls* impolite at times. In my day to day life, everyone is going about their lives as usual, nobody seems concerned at all really. With the exception of my boyfriend and a handful of friends, I often feel alone in how outraged and angry I am. I can’t speak openly in my workplace or on social media and even to certain members of my family. It’s great to have this ONE forum where we can vent freely and openly.
Happy New Year Kitten and everyone else, too. Good to see you here, dismayed that it takes so much time to stick up for stuff, and waiting for my head cold to clear so I can start making the damn political calls again.
Yes!!! So glad to see people starting to say this here. We need to figure out why our message wasn’t resonating with people desporate or upset enough to vote Trump, and make sure we don’t make the same mistakes in 2018 and beyond
We need to figure out how to reverse gerrymandering and voter suppression, get a moderate judge to fill the Supreme Court vacancy, find some way to get rid of or contain Trump, block as many of his cabinet appointments as possible, get strong candidates running for local and state office in 2018, send big money to legal defense funds supporting civil liberties, and get Vladimir Putin the hell out of our politics. Oh, and educate voters, especially young people, about the dangers of third-party voting in a two-party system.
The margins of victory were so close that any one or two of these things could help. Otherwise, people get what they pay for.
The people I know who voted for Trump aren’t upset or desperate. They are smug, comfortably employed, right-wing conservatives, and some of them used that line about “wanting to shake things up” to mask their childish glee.
@WATP
TOTALLY agree on 3rd party voting. Voting is a zero-sum game. People who voted 3rd party and who b*tch about Trump make me want to pull my hair out. Third party voters need to start smaller- state and local govts, then senate and house. President will come eventually.
Agreed on everything you said in the first comment, actually.
Re: people who voted for Trump. I know people who are desperate, and have been for years, who voted for him with no glee at all. They are small business owners and the ACA is a huge burden on them; they had to close up because they couldnt afford the healthcare. And these arent people who are living in a mansion (see: Papa Johns owner), so their livelihood was actually on the line. Just because YOU dont personally know these people doesnt mean they dont exist. Do I think they made the right decision? NO. but if Democrats cant convince them that Dems are the ones who can help them, thats a failure on the Democrats.
That the ACA is a huge burden on “small business” is a myth. The ACA doesn’t even apply to a business unless you have 50 FULL-TIME employees. That’s 10x as many as most true, “small businesses” I know. And, frankly, if you have a business that employees 50 people full-time and you didn’t provide them with health insurance until the law mandated it, you’re a dick boss.
Lastly, if those “burdened” businesses didn’t want to provide healthcare to their employees as part of their compensation packages, then they should have been vocal in their support of a public option. That would eliminate the need for ANY employer to provide, and pay for part of, their employees healthcare which, when you think about it, is kind of a terrible system anyway.
I’ve been a contract employee, in the pre-ACA days, which means no benefits, and I eventually took a salary position that paid for less but had benefits, because getting even basic, catastrophic health insurance on my own — as a healthy 20-something — proved too pricey. Now, I’m covered under my husband’s insurance so that can do freelance work, but our premiums have gone up annually and are now triple what they were when we married 15 years ago. That’s not the ACA’s fault either, as our rates were already going through double-digit increases in the years prior to its implementation.
Most true small business owners I know — those that run businesses with 1-5 employees, including themselves — were THRILLED with the exchanges. Or, if not thrilled, because ALL healthcare insurance in this country is too expensive, at least happy they could finally get SOME KIND of health coverage for themselves.
We tie people to jobs in this country by withholding healthcare from the self-employed … It’s sick and twisted. AND it’s terrible public policy in that we end up paying a lot more down the line for those that lack routine preventative care.
You’re going to waste your time. I’m in a country that has been torn apart by a succession of dictators, and nobody EVER admits to making a mistake because that would also mean they gave power to an evil person who robbed, imprisoned, and murdered innocent people.
Fight back, don’t let apathy or hopelessness get you, that is the best you can do.
I also think that Trump supporters will NEVER admit they made a mistake, short of him doing something so obviously horrible and Hitler-esque that I don’t even want to imagine it. (and then again, how many people supported Hitler until the very end and possibly even after, albeit silently?)
I agree. Germans either supported him or were intimidated into acquiescence. The Resistance was murdered.
After all the decades of warnings and all the nice sayings about how people shouldn’t be silent…it happened again.
Ok It’s 2017 and i’m done with this Excusing these “salt of the earth good people” twatwafflery, this is the last article with anywhere near this hand wringing and parsing about people that Low and high key would never in their lives extend this same nuance and delicate careful review to me and One.. #F*ckThisSh!tfor2017
I’m with you. This is all so much B.S. Black people got hurt more than White people in the financial crisis – lost more jobs, more health care, more houses, and more rights.
Well, in all fairness, if you’re white, unemployed and without healthcare, the fact that more black people have it just as bad does not really alleviate your pain.
That being said, like I said above, none of the people I know voted for Trump because they were unemployed and without healthcare.
In fact, the one person I know who has perhaps the most dire situation is a disabled divorced father whose children live with him most of the time is absolutely terrified of Obamacare being revoked because that was the first time in his life that he had stable healthcare access.
More black people don’t have it just as bad, they have it worse due to higher rates of incarceration and higher death rates at the hands of the police. And other stuff.
I too know Trump voters who totally voted against their own self-interest, and they’re not poor. The parent of a transgendered child, a Jew with a chronic illness approaching retirement, etc.
I’m sure you’ve noticed it’s almost always white men who are telling you to chill. They are the people without empathy, because while things will be fine for the average white male, things will not be good for anyone else. Although in Springsteen’s case, I think it’s more a case of so closely identifying with the working class that he’s making excuses. Also, he has depression and maybe has to avoid negative thinking. I know I do. Trump just makes it difficult.
Springsteen is identifying with a working class that used to fight for union rights and small-d democratic open-tent initiatives, but much of that has gone away. He seems a little out of touch.
Agree with both of you.
Here is a little insight. I go to people’s homes and help them with medicare and insurance issues. How many homes did I go into and encounter people crying over Obamacare premiums? How many people have I met who can’t find jobs because of the lack of industry? How many people did I meet who cared less Clinton was a woman but could no longer stand the complete and total arrogant way so many politicians treat people who live in “fly over states”. How badly are politicians, celebrities, and even the creators of this site are SO out of touch with the very day American. It’s an insult to millions of people to slap a racists label on them just to make YOU feel better about the loss of the election. I use to love this site but it’s no longer enjoyable. I wanted my escapism not to read everyday left wing rants. Especially when it’s rooted in so much extreme bias. I voted against Clinton not for Trump. Clinton has no one to blame but herself. Here some advice. Put down your latte and go outside of your bubble to find some compassion for your neighbor. Pull out that almighty “tolerance” flag you so dearly wave and maybe extend it to all people.
I’m screaming. And Trump cares about people??? Look who he wants in his cabinet. The guy he wants for Labor Secretary doesn’t believe in minimum wage or overtime. Good luck, buddy.
Here’s the thing Mel, Trump could have run on an economic platform without all the racism. Unfortunately, it’s intrinsically entangled with Trumps platform and people are experiencing hate crimes daily. People are actually being assaulted because of the colour of their skin/race or church they go to. You can’t make that go away and it’s not a ‘one off’. Until those who voted for Trump get just as vocal about their stance against hate crimes as they are about their economic situation, they’re going to have to get comfortable with that label. And by the way, it’s not only Trump voters who have had economic challenges over the last few years. Everyone is feeling it, the difference is, many others don’t feel they have to use racism to solve an economic problem.
A little insight, I left China when it was still Communist, the fact that that ALL Americans refuse to “check their privilege” and make EVERYTHING about internalpolitical racism, when racism in America is really small scale compared globally. I would give anything to go back to China to see family and have the only racism I experience be a “microagression” or just a sign in could choose to ignore and treat my children that view is wrong.
I’m from the outside, so to me seeing minorities say they can’t be racist the scream that all white people are horrible, or the elderly who won’t be affected by trumps actions should die or shouldn’t vote kind of rings true to the type of things I grew up with in CHina and honestly, a lot of stuff in the media reads like straight propaganda, and I’m talking about cnn, huff post and other mainstream outlets. Media, media censorship and straight omission of facts is frightening. One should not have to fact check the nightly news.
Ah, the tried and true, tired latte liberal jibe. How will you console your clients when they’re no longer crying over an Obamacare premium, but a catatrosphic, crippling debt incurred because they needed an emergency room visit for something as benign as food poisoning? How about when the incoming congress guts Medicare, how will you advise your clients then? I certainly don’t denigrate hard working people who fight tooth and nail for a living, but spare me the jibes when those same people vote in mass against their own interests.
How about after they’ve exhausted all their savings and incurred massive debt on a child’s medical care and their medical savings account is depleted and their astronomically high deductible insurance still won’t pick up the costs?
I don’t drink lattes. I have lots of compassion for my neighbors and actively help those who have less. You voted for Trump; you did not vote for compassion. You voted to hurt.
I’m in no way a cheeto messiah (lol thank you for the laugh!) supporter and at the same time there are moderates who voted for Chester the cheeto. It is important to note that I’m not including the back ass wards far far right trump supporters in the “moderate reps category. Now, unfortunate I believe that the extremists in either end of the political spectrum are a lost cause. exercise the tolerance that is preached about, towards decent republicans. I know MANY MANY republicans who are very tolerant. And to people that think differently. They don’t support racism and all that baggage. They are good welcoming people. It is important to realize that. A refusal to accept good people because they think differently IS intolerance.
I’m not sure I get the “intolerance of intolerance is intolerant” argument. I reject the idea that undocumented immigrants are more likely to be criminals, the statistics refute that claim. I reject any and all discrimination against the LGBTQ community, denying people civil rights is not a matter of opinion. I reject the idea that America is for white Europeans only, my ancestors were on this continent 10,000+ years before any European. I reject the idea that women can be freely groped by any man with a tic-tac in his pocket. We can disagree on economic or foreign policy. We can talk about school vouchers and fracking. Balancing environmental protection with economic growth is something to discuss. Best way to deliver health care? I want to hear different ideas. Those are all matters on which it is ok to disagree. Denying others fundamental human rights and their basic humanity is not just a matter of “thinking differently”.
Sorry they lost the “moderate” moniker when they voted for the Cheeto and his cronies. There was no hidden agenda here, no one can claim bait and switch. They either made a choice knowing how bad this was going to get, or chose to be willfully ignorant about it.
What Alleycat said. And Trump is “IN TOUCH” with every day American? Are you kidding me? So, you punished 1 billionaire by voting for another billionaire?
And honestly, HOW MANY people did you see crying over Obamacare premiums? And now – how many people would’ve been still crying without Obamacare because premiums have been going steadily up for years ? Do you know that?
How many people who can’t find jobs lost their jobs or had it coming for years, there’s very little Obama could do about it?
And I’m sorry, if you voted against a candidate because she was “arrogant”, then you are the special snowflakes who need safe spaces and participation trophies.
The Clinton’s are not, and have never claimed to be, billionaires. They are quite wealthy, of course, with an estimated joint net worth of around $45 million, but that’s a long way from the $3.7 billion Trump CLAIMS to be worth.
Whether Trump was a billionaire going into the office of President, I have little doubt he’ll emerge as one.
Mel, you ask several questions but provide no answers. How many homes? How many people?
And also, I’d like to know what US politicians did to these ‘fly over states’. If they suffered, it was more than likely the policies of the state and local politicians. I suspect this horrible treatment is a more of a myth perpetrated by Fox News and the ilk than actual factual evidence.
It’s easy to blame Fox News, but when you have ALL 3 Fox, CNN, and MSNBC trying to categorize certain people/voters it becomes insulting. I watched election coverage and all of the major networks said things like this is where the white people are so this a Trump vote, this is urban or African American so this is a Hillary vote, and so on. Voting is not a demographic that can fit in certain boxes.
@KCAT
What a way to twist what was said. They are reporting on actual data of the regions where the votes were coming in from. They used census information to figure out what the racial makeup of a town was: white or asian or black or a mix of different races and then reported on which candidate won the vote in that particular territory. They did not make it up as they went along or just make generalizations. They used public data to map out who was voting and how they voted. That is how it works.
The person who voted can fit into a demographic as a person is a part of a population.
I am curious. These are genuine questions, not nastiness. What in Trumps platform made your clients believe that medical insurance premiums would go down if the ACA was repealed? Just his promise of “something better”? If they were receiving subsidies *as the majority buying insurance on the exchanges were* the premiums should have remained relatively affordable. More so than buying insurance in Medicaid high risk pools will be.
Also, what industry do they believe Trump will revive?
Don’t expect an answer. Nothing in Trump’s plan, which was available on his website, or the Republican plan, written by his HHS nominee Price, which they tried to pass previously and you can see in the congressional record, does anything to address costs.
Well, Mel, I would buy a Costco sized box of Kleenex because your clients’ tears are just going to get worse, not better.
Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs in action. I suspect most people who voted for trump didn’t like it, but they couldn’t/were afraid they weren’t going to be able to attend to their basic needs without a change.
There are the terrible racists too, of course. I’m not here for them though; they’re lost.
Ok except the majority of whites who voted for Trump are wealthy, self-interested folks who don’t live around a lot of Muslims or PoC or poor whites and care little for their rights or needs.
They want tax cuts and the dismantling of social programs. They GLADLY voted for Trump because they see themselves in his rich, orange, bloated face. They voted for him because he’s part of The Team and they have ZERO compunction about it.
Everyone I know who voted for Trump would have had their needs met under Clinton. One of them has a severely disabled grandchild, with a life expectancy of 10, who will probably lose most of her health benefits now
I hear you, I had hoped we were done with the election coverage here and getting back to gossip and Royal gossip.
And yes even with the ACA insurance premiums have gone up, and the thought of politicians knowing what is good for us is tiring to many American’s.
@Mel You have no idea what Trump’s plans will do to the economy. It will not make it better for your clients. How could it since the people he’s nominated to cabinet positions are incompetent and in some case racists with a proven track record (Sessions).
As for drinking my “latte,” well, normally I would, but since I just got laid off Sunday night via TEXT message from my boss, I’ll hold off and save my money. He cited upcoming low numbers as his clients are worried about the economy under Trump (not Obama). People are scared, just like when the economy tanked in 2006 under Bush, people are not going to be spending extra in the next coming year. Buckle up, I predict it’s going to get worse.
But thanks for the laugh and pretentious post. I needed it today.
@Bethy
I’m so sorry, Bethy!
I hope you find a better job very soon. In the meantime, I wish I could buy you that latte today.
Gah. I’m so sorry, Bethy. I expect your experience will become more and more common over the next four years.
Oh no Bethy. I am sorry that this has happened to you.
Hugs, Betty.
Thank you Mel! I like your post times 1000 and have had the same experience. I am also in the insurance industry and we need to face the fact that ACA has been a complete and utter failure. This WAS an election about the economy and many people have been left behind and are still suffering since the recession. To dismiss them as racist and ignorant is one of the reasons why the Democrats lost and will continue to lose.
The ACA has not been a complete and utter failure as witnessed by the fact that there are provisions in it that Trump would like to keep.
Of course if you work in private insurance you don’t support the ACA, but thanks for letting us know you bring that bias to the table.
The ACA is actually working, but needed support to enroll more young, healthy people and that has started to happen given the fear of dismantling the legislation. In the meantime, the past few years more people were able to go to the doctor, get help, get healthy, and live.
Trump was just trying to thread the needle, politically. He can say he wants to keep provisions, but the truth is the insurance ‘marketplace’ only works if all the pieces are in place, integrated. Otherwise it will collapse. That’s the Republican goal: let it collapse but say it’s the government’s fault for getting involved in the first place.
Trump will sign anything Ryan puts on his desk.
The ACA has been good in some ways, I think (keeping kids on parents insurance till 25 etc), but it HAS had very real, very bad consequences for small businesses that I think a lot of people dont realize.
Thank you @CarolineH and @Mel. Its nice to hear someone from the trenches, who is dealing with ACA day to day, explain their experience.
Tolerance must go both ways.
Its easy to be tolerant of those who agree with you.
Tolerance of those you dislike is not easy. It is very very hard.
And so is democracy.
But.
Shall I (roughly) paraphrase JFK?
“We choose to do these things not because they are easy, but because they are difficult.”
Beware of what is easy.
Who wants to hear a Yoda quote, suitable for this newest of Years?
quote:
“Luke: …is the dark side stronger?
Yoda: No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?”
.end quote.
And I say this to everyone.
Beware of the hate that is too easy.
Tolerance. Both ways.
Where did I say I worked in private insurance? I am a broker. I sell both private and ACA health insurance plans. Thanks for all of your assumptions though! ACA has been a complete failure. Younger healthier people have not signed up because the plans are abysmal. Too expensive for too little coverage. They would rather pay the IRS fine and I can’t say that I blame them. It’s not only younger healthier people, I know quite a few people who willingly go uninsured. Normal middle class people who simply cannot afford the ACA premiums. Meanwhile my small business clients have been clobbered by double digit % increases. Every year the renewal plans increase in price and decrease in benefits. Competition has decreased and many insurers have pulled out of certain markets completely. In the Philadelphia market there is ONE option for private health insurance if you are a self employed person. ONE option! Tell me again how ACA is a great success?
Various facts and figures. There are all kinds of measurements, and the basic one is the numbers of people with health insurance. Health care is a function of cost, quality and access. Access has improved, cost needs work (health CARE costs have been coming down, in part due to some less covered ACA provisions, whereas health insurance PREMIUMS have gone up), quality is all over the board in the USA due to the private system. To issue a blanket condemnation is to grossly oversimplify. I am curious as to what the hundreds of thousands working directly for private insurance or working as brokers would do if insurance went to a public, single-payer system.
A sample of overviews, including of course the government’s own:
But first, the Kaiser Family Foundation offers a treasure trove of information about health insurance in America, including the implications of Republican plans to repeal the ACA. Dig in!
http://kff.org/
https://www.hhs.gov/healthcare/facts-and-features/fact-sheets/aca-is-working/index.html
http://time.com/money/4209465/is-obamacare-working/
As a cancer survivor who is protected under the ACA, no, it most certainly is not an utter failure. I don’t see either of you mention that. The issue with the premiums is not the ACA but the insurers and the states that refuse to regulate them. Young people didn’t sign up BEFORE the ACA and more are covered now because the ACA allow them to stay on their parents policies longer. People in small businesses, which are exempt, can now get coverage through the exchanges. Neither of you address any of these issues. Neither do Trump’s or Ryan’s proposals, which are readily available on their websites. Instead, they propose more medical savings accounts, which are a great way to go bankrupt, purchasing across state lines, which is ridiculous, tax breaks AFTER you pay for care, and tort reform so insurers don’t have to pay you when the doctor amputates the wrong leg.
You do realize it varies from state to state? It is failure in states where Republicans refused government aid to support it. As a blue stater, I have better insurance with a lower premium and less cost. Curious as to which state you work where this is happening?
MEL and CarolineH, you will both be happy to know that the Senate filed legislation today that committees in both House and Senate must have ACA repeal bills ready for floor vote on January 27. Not repeal and replace or repeal and reform but straight repeal bills. Just kill it. There will be no time allowed for discussion or arguments. Just kill it! Won’t that make your work so much easier? You can just tell the millions like me that we can’t have coverage, no more figuring how which plan has the best providers for our ailments. All those young people won’t have to pay those fines any more! God help them if they fall off their bikes or break a leg skiing or show signs of schizophrenia. But hey, easier for you, right? Although now, you’ll have to help people navigate which plans fully cover annual physicals, mammograms, and prostate exams fully or subject them to co-pays and deductibles or deny coverage outright. So confusing. And you’ll get to stir people towards those cheap caveat emptor plans again that offer low premiums, high deductibles, and no real actual coverage when the person becomes seriously sick or injured
@Isabelle, exactly! My insurance premiums went down for the first three years of the ACA, saving me around $500 in each of those years AND my annual physical and mammogram were exempted from my plan’s cost-sharing requirements, saving me more money. But I live in Massachusetts, which fully enacted the ACA, unlike other places, and which has always highly regulated the health care and health insurance industries. States that didn’t and don’t tended to see the bigger increases because they let the insurance companies do whatever they want.
@Mel lol I’m pretty sure you are a troll who will never actually answer anyone, but whatever. I’m a liberal and believe it or not, not all of us are well off yuppies. I’ve also lived in my fair share of communities like you described, and let me tell you, these salt of the earth types can be their own worst enemies. Most are undereducated and proud of their culture that promotes ignorance and close-mindedness. I find it quite ironic that the “salt of the earth” types are often led to vote against themselves. So sorry, I’ve seen the side of the coin you are describing and they aren’t any more innocent then the yuppie liberals you berate so easily. Nice job, though, of trying to answer hypocrisy with hypocrisy.
Sigh. I help people get set up with Medicaid and other plans under the Affordable Care Act and I can’t believe how many people have thrived under it – especially given all the subsidies most people qualify for. I don’t mess with Medicare, but the other two…yeah. Way more people benefiting than not. Two people I know of bitched endlessly about it, and lo and behold, both had serious injuries that would have bankrupted them. The solution? universal health care. Go talk to the republicans about where that idea went. This was the best kind of compromise there was going to be and MANY people have reaped the benefits.
And if you think Trump values keeping jobs in America, why is anything with his name on it made overseas? Anything with his daughter’s name? He’s so committed to people struggling he withholds payment from small businesses, sets up a bogus “university” and is ALWAYS tied up with some kind of litigation. Loves women so much they’re all reduced to their looks and what they can give him.
SHAME ON YOU. You want an excuse for your racism, your misogyny, your hypocrisy. YES YOU DO. AND YES YOU ARE. There, I said it. Enough with the “I voted against Clinton” bs. You saw someone spew the hate you feel you can’t and you pounced on it. No amount of “I’m tired of politicians who do x, y ,z” will make any difference because everything you hate about those politicians he embodies and then some. You voted for hate, you voted for normalizing violence, bigotry, assault, racism, pathological narcissism and unapologetic lying all because you’re tired of arrogant politicians. WTF do you think Trump is? Humble??? and most of those people in “fly over states” are in such trouble because they consistently vote against their own interests. I’m so tired of people like you.
Preach!!
Thank you.
Precisely.
I’m a hillbilly that grew up poor as dirt, Appalachian poor. So don’t inform me on “real America”. I know it, I am it, you to me would be an elite latte sipping know it all. A person coming into my home as a hillbilly filling out my papers, you are the people you mentioned. The other with the nose up in the air. Trump is a Charlatan businessman and will not lower my intelligence to vote for him because of my ingrained generational poverty. Many people in Appalachia vote out of pride and pure stubbornness. Red staters vote to despise the people that have mocked them. That is the truth but look what it has given them. They are poorer, jobs lost, dire poverty, illness, high death rates, high rates of cancer and diabetes, no safety nets, highest food stamps rates in he country, the worst schools in the country, a meth & opioid epidemic, health insurance gone because they have let Republicans control their states. People in red states die earlier than those in blue ones, more addicted, less educated and more impoverished. So don’t lecture me on what I don’t know when they are my people.
Great post. Trump supporters are equal parts smug, ignorant and racist.
@Mel
“How badly are politicians, celebrities, and even the creators of this site are SO out of touch with the very day American. ” etc. blahdy blah blah.
You’ve got a nerve. The people on THIS site are “everyday Americans”. But you want to suppress their voices because they don’t agree with YOUR PROPAGANDA. COMRADE TROLL. And if you’re not working for Russia, you are still a willing traitor to America.
I’m probably being naive but I think the Trump voters are going to be in for a rude awakening. I think a couple of things could happen – most of Trump’s promises won’t happen and things that do get passed or things he does will have people saying “WTF!!!”. I don’t know what I want to happen – Trump to be an incredible failure or to do a 180 on most policies to be somewhat reasonable.
Now that I’ve had time to really think about it all, this is exactly how I feel!
Personally I hope he gets impeached, though that’s looking highly unlikely today. I know Pence is horrible but he’s much less likely to blow up the planet. As for the rude awakening – I don’t see it happening, sorry. Things would have to be really, really bad for people to get the message. Even then, they’d blame Hillary somehow.
They can try to blame her but as she’s not making herself visible, it’s going to be kind of hard. Trump is extremely visible, and as such, he’ll turn into an easy target.
I don’t think the Trump voters will ever get it – they are currently bending themselves in all directions to justify his lack of swamp-draining, his support of Putin, not attending security briefings. People actually think that it’s okay that he doesn’t attend briefings because you know their repetitive – seriously?
Trumpistas are a faithless bunch. They don’t have the courage of their convictions.
While I agree we need to be more open minded about who and what motivated people to vote Trump, it’s impossible to ignore their willingness to ignore basic moral principle.
Thanks. That’s the thing Trump apologists miss: This isn’t about differences in political philosophy, at least in terms of disagreement on how to conduct an open democracy. Trump and his cronies aren’t interested in democracy. They’re interested in an authoritarian kleptocracy supported by bigotry. This is good and evil, not “how do we want to be good.”
That’s concisely true.
Eh, I’m a bit (a lot) uneasy about this narrative of Trump voters being the poor put upon folks who have been ‘left behind’ by deindustrialization and globalization – those poor folks who have lost their jobs and way of life. I mean sure, I believe those people exist, but let’s not kid ourselves – many many many Trump voters are educated and well-off (even wealthy). Many Trump voters are those who have been explicitly advantaged by globalisation and technological advances.
Let’s be honest – loads of Trump supporters voted for him because he was openly and proudly racist, sexist and biggoted.
I am not saying that ALL trump supporters are hateful tw*ts, but come on. Who are we kidding with this salt of the earth poor folk narrative? Sure, many of them may fit into that neat little box of the poor disenfranchised white man, but facts and figures show that that is not the entire picture. Some people are just di*cks – can we stop making excuses for them?
I agree. Plenty of Trump voters are perfectly comfortable citizens. With jobs. Who aren’t buying insurance on the exchanges. Yet, to vote for him, they either turned a blind eye to racism and sexism or they actively support such philosophies.
And some of them are NRA members turned out in droves by their organization of choice.
Remember that Seinfeld episode when George ate the eclair out of the garbage and tried to justify it by saying it was on top, above the rim? Jerry responded “adjacent to refuse is refuse”. That’s how I feel about Trump voters. Willingly on the same team as racists, misogynists, anti-semites, anti-science climate change deniers, religious fanatics, homophobes, etc…means you are one of them. I don’t care what your economic excuse. And I do not live in a bubble. I was born into poverty on an indian reservation, half my extended family still lives there and relies on casino revenue to live a decent life. The other half of my extended family are rednecks from north east Appalachia and personify the typical Trump voter. I see the struggle, I lived the struggle. I accept no excuses.
@aang….SO MUCH THIS!! I’ll be stealing this analogy and ALLLLL the rest!
Most people struggle every single day, and yet they didn’t vote for him, so you’re right that there is no excuse.
Following up an “I’m not an elitest liberal” with a quote from Seinfeld is…not great, Bob.
Even if you think that Trump is going to do wonders for USA economy, how can anyone overlook the fact that Trump called mexicans criminals and rapists? the fact he wants to make a register of muslims just like the nazis did with the jews? the way he brags about sexually assaulting women?
they want economic,social, political stability for them while millions are treated like second class citizens?
is that what they want?
Because that’s the definition of fascism, and that’s inexcusable
Easy, because they think they won’t be hurt. However, I had the good fortune as a young person to come into contact with people who have lived through and lost family to fascist regimes. They impressed on me the importance of two things, the first is that these regimes are going to do what they say and take it seriously. The second is that this is a system that feeds on itself-no one is safe and they will always get around to ‘you’ no matter how safe you think you are. There is no such thing as safety in a fascist regime.
Yes, Yes! I don’t care what the economy is like, how the f@ck can you vote for someone who has said these things? Somebody at work, a Hispanic, says oh, you’ll have more money in your pocket! Idgaf, I refuse to vote for a racist!
I am as horrified as anyone at the looming Trump presidency.
But as much as I disagree with voting for him I just don’t see how screaming at the people that voted for him is going to have any benefit whatsoever. People don’t listen when you scream at them.
Also there ARE good people that vote for him. Sometimes, when I read certain internet comments people think that they are justified, for example, to label a person as overall “bad” who has helped others their whole lives but voted for Trump. Maybe a person is very religious and votes strictly on abortion? Some of these people have done a lot of good in the world with charity, etc. And yes there are plenty of racist jerks that voted for him too but it’s not everyone. It is just not that simple. And completely ineffective to rant at them.
Who is ranting? All people are doing is saying that perhaps Springsteen is overly apologetic for the class of people about whom he’s built a songwriting career: the white working class of the rust belt.
I didn’t necessarily mean this specific thread but more generally. I don’t think continuing to spew outrage at all Trump voters will do anything to help progress. And I, like many others who did comment on this specific thread agree with Springsteen that all Trump voters aren’t bad people.
I just haven’t seen a lot of spewing, but I have seen that word used a lot by Trump supporters – not saying you are. What we’re grappling with is the extent to which people can do bad things before they are characterized as “bad.” It may come down to whether someone defines Trump and Trumpism (bigotry, authoritarian, kleptocracy) as “bad.” If someone thinks it’s just basic right-wing stuff only a little more loud, that’s one thing (though I think they’re wrong). If someone thinks they’re bent on destroying American democracy and violating the country’s most cherished values, that’s another.
The fact that we’re thinking a lot about how the German people dealt with Hitler and how he got the consent of the elite and the middle class says a lot. If it weren’t so much like their moral swamp, we wouldn’t be asking that question.
And the problem is that Trump and his followers HAVE defined a lot of people as “bad,” as not just “doing bad things.” They have no problem with saying people they don’t like are their enemies and really really bad. In my thinking, they do not deserve the benefit of the doubt. My heart goes out to everyone likely to be hurt by them and their actions.
Really? I’m seeing the exact opposite. I see a shitload of “polite liberals” patiently attempting to engage in political discourse only to be met with angry tirades with little-to-no-substance from Trumpsters.
This has always been the way of the Right though: demand civility and respect from the left with no reciprocity.
When I think of the demeanor of the quintessential neocon, Tucker Carlsh comes to mind. Hopefully I can post these videos here, but fair warning: do not watch if in proximity to sharp objects:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8L1cRrBCWfY
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UdnxQeH5los
@JenB, I think the time has come that for those who vote for ‘one issue’ only, such as abortion, to rethink why they do that. If you cast your vote for someone who is ‘pro-life’ but they to harm to others with their policies, you might want to consider if you are ok with those policies because both go hand and hand. I for one, can’t cast a vote for someone if they will do harm to my fellow citizens just because they have fulfilled the one and only box on my list.
I’ve had this conversation with my Christian friends who have been doing this for years. We have come to realize that ‘one issue’ voting, while it’s promoted by various religious organizations might not be enough.
I agree that one issue voting is not a good thing and I’m glad to hear you have Christian voter friends that are open to conversation about that issue. That’s encouraging! And just to clarify I’m absolutely pro-choice and not a Trump supporter.
I just don’t think it’s fair or helpful blanket label *all* Trump voters as inherently “bad” people.
@HK9 I have several one issue voting Republican family members so I know what you’re talking about. I’m proud to say none of them could bring themselves to vote for Trump. Having said that, most of them voted 3rd party (Evan McMullan, writing in other names, etc) because they feel so strongly that abortion is murder. Thankfully they are in a reliably red state so their 3rd party votes didn’t make a difference. I’m most proud of my 2nd Amendment rights family member that actually voted for Hillary. He lives in a purple state so his vote could’ve had an impact. It wasn’t easy for him to vote for her but Trump’s incompetence, bullying and authoritarian streak made him completely unacceptable. For what it’s worth, ALL of these people grew to fear and loathe Trump from watching the Republican debates. It was Trump’s own words and behavior that turned them off. They could not support an incompetent, repulsive misogynistic authoritarian bully that uses racism and Islamphobia to fire up the masses. So yes, there are non-progressive types out there that saw Trump for who he is and refused to support him.
BTW none of these people are wealthy. They are all struggling financially. I won’t attack people for how they voted but Trump supporters who whine and cry that people are calling them racists? You won’t get an ounce of sympathy from me. Tough luck.
“to label a person as overall “bad” who has helped others their whole lives but voted for Trump.”
This does not compute. They voted for hatred, for the *destruction* of the lives of others. At best, I bet they helped their own kind or got paid for it. But the kind of ‘good’ person you describe simply doesn’t exist. And Bruce is wrong, too.
No.
Feeling “left behind” is just sugar coating this simple truth: All people saw were rights being, finally granted, to people who are different than they are. Equal rights. The saw a loss of power, even if they couldn’t name it as such. And they want that power, that control, back.
They come under the guise of “our poor families! we have to feed them!” but it’s not minorities taking their jobs, it’s automation. No way is Trump going to be able to bring enough businesses back to revisit the 50’s prosperity.
So no way. They don’t get a hard pass for voting in Trump, his cabinet, and all the damage he is and will continue to do. No sympathy from me. They are actively participating in throwing millions under the bus just to save themselves, that which cannot even be saved. Selfish. Arrogant. WRONG.
Stop normalizing this, stop looking for a proportional response. Trump is dangerous, Pence is dangerous, Bannon is dangerous. Their agendas will hurt us all, even those solid Trump supporters.
/end rant
Original Kay, you’re OK. This is how anger is done!
Have long said, “No one gives up power willingly*” and there you have it.
* George Washington was a rare exception, but he had money and a nice house to go back to, plus slaves.
Well said, original kay. Brava.
Here’s the thing.. PEOPLE WHO ARE ABLE BETTER PREPARE FOR WHAT IS TO COME. I have a job that is pretty secure. But I know that I have to start saving more and spending less. I have to manage my life in a different way. And I suggest others begin to do the same. It feels just like it felt before the Financial Crisis. I got ready for that. And I will get ready for this.
Yup. And it’s harder for people who will now be making less as inflation goes up but wages do not given the total opposition of the incoming regime to a fair minimum wage, let alone a living wage.
I guess my question always is: why are people so easily misled by simple slogans like “I will give you your jobs back” that are so patently untrue? Why is it so easy to ‘mislead’ so much of the population regardless of their concerns? I’m not trolling – it’s an honest question. So many people are let off the hook for having zero ability to be informed, think critically or avoid manipulation and appeals to their fear or baser instincts. I ask this as someone who grew up in a family of bigoted, often racists working-class white people who considered me the black sheep because I read books and went to college. I’m sorry, I don’t give these people a pass. I know them intimately and many of them embrace and enjoy their ignorance.
You’re right: People are easily lulled by empty slogans and propaganda, especially when they mask the real problem and tap into their anger or unease. Good for you for educating yourself and learning to think critically. Poor education is a big problem for America and given the incoming Secretary of Education, it won’t get better, especially with the promotion of vouchers to go to religious schools that are anti-science.
It’s always been the way. It’s why the advertising industry thrives since year dot. Slogans, soundbites etc. Very few humans exercise critical thinking unless it affects them directly and even then, they can still be persuaded a different way. Plus few humans want to go against the grain of public opinion whether that opinion is right or wrong.
Well, “Hope and Change” and “Yes We Can” were wildly successful on the left. So… there’s that.
In context, I don’t think he’s making excuses for Trump voters. I think he might implicitly be saying that there are people who you wouldn’t expect (i.e “the good kind”) to vote for Trump who did. We were all shocked by the end result, so I don’t think he’s wrong. I mean, no one expected to him. (So either the good people simply didn’t vote or they voted for the Orange Cheeto. Could be either. We’re all asking how the polls got it wrong, and we’re wondering if there were Trump voters secretly hiding in plain sight). There might an underlying subtext to what he’s saying (i.e even the good people have been led astray by false ideas).
I think what he’s pointing out isn’t necessarily apologetic but actually quite scary — that even good people (or people we perceive as good like our next door neighbours) are completely capable of turning their backs on what’s right and vote for a totally incompetent person like Donald Trump. At least that’s what I felt was implied in his statement. I could be wrong though. It’s possible however that maybe even he doesn’t realize what he was implying.
The fact is, the polls didn’t really get it wrong. I mean, an 80% probability of victory is still a 20% probability of loss. That’s how it works. I believe that just about every “turned” state was within the margin of polling error (2-3 points). The number of votes that went differently than expected and made the ultimate difference was somewhere around 80,000 people in just seven U.S. counties spread across three states. I’ve been in football stadiums that hold more people than ended up electing Trump President.
And, while it is somewhat comforting to know that less than a 1/3 of the U.S. voting population actually cast ballot for this egomaniacal wanna-be tyrant, that doesn’t make his threat any less real.
“And, while it is somewhat comforting to know that less than a 1/3 of the U.S. voting population actually cast ballot for this egomaniacal wanna-be tyrant, that doesn’t make his threat any less real.”
I thought Springsteen did say he’s never felt more fear than now so I think he (and I would agree) that the threat is real.
I don’t like Trump at all, and I was baffled by the result. I really didn’t expect him to win and still am trying to come to grips with it. Regardless of what the polls did or did not say, I expected common sense to prevail and it didn’t. So either there are a tremendous amount of bad people out there (yikes) who voted for Trump or good people who selectively decided to not use their goodness voted for Trump. I’m not sure which it is. Either way, whether the people who voted for him are just generally bad or good people who decided not to use their goodness when voting, all of this is very depressing.
I meant only that it’s tempting to look at the popular vote and console oneself by saying, ‘Well, the majority didn’t vote for him, so maybe it will be OK.’ It’s a crutch I, myself, fight to avoid using.
I, too, was shocked, dismayed, horrified, confused and terrified by the result. I was talking more that, in hindsight, the ‘how did we get it so wrong’ question isn’t really about polling. But is it about having too much faith in the American people?
I thought that while I knew there were isolated, uneducated Trump fans most people, even loyal Republicans, couldn’t possibly see what this man said/did every single day, through over a year of campaigning and a lifetime of clamoring to be in the media spotlight, and select him to be, arguably, the most powerful man on Earth. I thought it was impossible that, that much ignorance, hate and apathy existed in the America of 2016. I was very, very wrong.
I’ve thought a lot about that Saturday Night Live sketch after the election with Chris Rock and Dave Chappelle where the white liberals grow ever more horrified about what they’re seeing as they watch the election results come in, while Rock and Chappelle, their “black friends,” were like, ‘Yeah, we’re not surprised, we knew it was this bad.’
I’ve spent a lot of time since the election wondering how much MY white privilege factored into an inherent belief that people would definitely vote AGAINST hate if given the chance. Not all of them, of course, but more than enough. I went into November 8 firmly believing there was NO WAY Trump could win. That he was a terrible human being, for sure, but mostly nothing but a big joke politically. Therefore, I woke up on November 9 not only gravely fearing for my country’s future, but also questioning a lot about my own beliefs about others.
And, as a cynical, introvert — a friend once got me a “welcome” mat that said “if you don’t live here go away” as a fairly spot-on joke — who tends to communicate primarily via sarcasm, it’s hard to lower my already inch-high bar for most of mankind. But, kudos for setting a new low, which Trump’s election has done.
“When you’re used to privilege, equality feels like oppression.”
I’ve never liked lattes. I’ve spent my life living in flyover states, and most of my relatives are/were either farmers, or worked in factories, with minimal education requirements for either. Here’s the hard truth: the “good, solid” people that voted for Trump are living in a fantasy world.
No one has a time machine that can make it 1950 in America again, and no minority would want it to be, even if we could. The time when you can live a middle class life based on hard, physical labor, little or no formal education and the luck of being born a white man is gone. Technology has made such limited skill sets obsolete, so you can either sit around and bemoan your fate and how unfair it is that you can’t live exactly like your parents or grandparents, or you can embrace reality, reeducate and retrain yourself to fit in the world AS IT IS, not AS YOU WISH IT STILL WAS.
What Trump is doing is telling people that have seen once semi-prosperous livings in mining, industry and family farming turn into subsistence, and often barely that, existences, that their fate is those brown people and foreigners’ over there fault. All so that the White Working Class will turn their heads and gawp in hate and anger, so they’re not looking while Trump and his cronies pick their pocket.
Trump, and his ilk, desperately WANT to keep the white American electorate ignorant. It’s their sole survival strategy. Because once those people educate themselves and proactively start changing their place in the workforce, society and the world at large, they stop voting Republican; A party whose one true, core principal is making the wealthy ever wealthier.
The richest 62 people on earth have more between them than HALF the rest of the wold’s population. That’s 62 people who own and posses more than the other 3.7 BILLION. The richest 1% of the population have more than the other 99% combined … And, yet, they’re still not satisfied.
It’s laughable (sad laugh, not ha ha laughter) to think that anyone truly believes a man who literally lives in a gilded penthouse styled as a palace gives two shakes about the job prospects or healthcare premiums of someone he pays bodyguards and doormen to keep as far away from himself and his family as possible. The Republicans want to repeal Obamacare because it’s a tax on the wealthy. That’s the only reason. Every single policy they prescribe is to make the rich, richer. Period.
This is not new, but Trump is signaling that he is going from traditional Republican cronyism to full-on kleptocracy with his cabinet picks — the wealthiest group of people ever in government — shrug at ethical norms and continuation to do business with foreign governments while at the same time being President-Elect.
This is Idiocracy come to life and anyone who ignores the fact that we got here by playing on people’s worst instincts — fear, hatred of “the other” and greed — is part of the problem.
+1000
Well said, S. Trump promised them a world that no longer exists.
Fabulous analysis. Spot on.
Meanwhile, Trumpistas come on this site and whine that ‘everyone is screaming meanie’.
I grew up in rural flyover country, and you speak the truth. The white people I grew up around would, for the most part, vote for a coyote in a suit if it had an (R) by its name on the ballot, because they see the Republican party as the defender of their white, Christian privilege. They’ll ignore being robbed blind and lied to just so long as a politician will tell them (in appropriately coded language, of course) that they and their descendants in perpetuity are still special, superior, and deserving of a better lifestyle than non-whites and non-Christians, simply by virtue of being white and going to church twice on Sunday. You can imagine how they reacted to Obama’s election (twice!). They will let Trump do whatever he wants, and cheer him on, even when their own standard of living and access to healthcare is being flushed down the toilet.
Pathetic excuses, excuses, excuses for the those “poor” comrade Trump voters who have been treated sooooooo unfairly in the past. Those voters need to get out of THEIR bubble and see the world as it is, integrated and evolving and overloaded with killing machines and guns.
GOP put party over country, KKK and middle of the road racists found a friend in Trump, the FBI, sexists and Comey were in the bag for Trump. Russia not America won this election and so did the NRA.
My emotions have been all over the map since the election, angry, sad, afraid, and dreading the future. But I still have empathy for the Trump voters who believed him when he said he would bring back industry in their areas, create jobs, etc. What will they do when Medicare, Medicaid, Food Stamps, and other programs get gutted? Where will they go when social services are legislated into oblivion? While his countrymen suffer, Trump will be busy tweeting, golfing, and pulling down a second salary as a producer on The Apprentice.
Where will they go? They can go march on the fat cats in Washington who have done these things to them. That’s what the working class used to do.
The problem is when all of those things happen, they will find anyone but Trump and the GOP to blame.
My parents are good people who fell for these lies without thinking. They’re both in their 60’s and disabled. They must have forgotten how expensive medicine, surgery, and doctors are. When Medicare and ssi are ended more Trump supporters will feel foolish than already do. Wall?? Maybe just a fence. Come on!!
Bruce of course knows all these people who voted for King Joffrey because he’s been pandering to them for years with his bland version of Americana music. Bruce couldn’t hold Bowie’s lipstick nor Freddie Mercury’s moustache lint to save his life. Pfft.
More like he doesn’t compare to Woody Guthrie, Pete Seeger, Sam Cooke or Curtis Mayfield.
Much ado about a celeb speaking to his people ie his ticket buyers.
Ha! Maybe Bruce is just trying to get his now because the economy is about to get destroyed.
I know all sorts who voted Trump. Rich, poor, man, woman, educated, highschool drop outs, white and yes *gasp* even poc. If you ask around you probably do as well. They all had their reasons, some alike and some not. A few I would consider the bigoted sort, most weren’t. (I know a few bigots who voted for Clinton too) Believing they are all hateful racist scum is akin to the old suggestion that Obama supporters are all socialists and cultural Marxists hellbent on eliminating the Christians, the white middle class, and traditional American values that made this country great. Sound familiar? It’s easy to assign labels, or gold stars, and be done with it. But don’t let either msm or alt media fool you. Most feminists don’t want to castrate all the men and most Trump voters don’t want to herd Mexicans and Muslims onto cattle cars.
@shura yep, agree with you
The thing is, Clinton didn’t threaten to castrate all the men, but Trump did threaten to herd Mexicans and Muslims onto cattle cars.
@who are these people. Well, she does support male circumcision. 😉 Clearly, some men feel her brand of feminism is castrating. And there is a fringe element within modern feminism which seeks to castrate, literally. But to Trump … deporting illegal immigrants? I don’t know. Obama has deported over 2 million. And I trust not in cattle cars. Do you sincerely believe the majority of Trump supporters are hoping to gas up the ovens? And do you believe that fringe faction who would wouldn’t be stopped by people like you and me? America is not a homogeneous society. There would be blood in the streets and I think you know that.
WTF is a cultural Marxist? (To you and anybody else. I heard that rap before, it just hit me I don’t understand what it means.)
Oy. That’s a tough one. It’s not quite Marxism applied to culture. From the perspective of someone using the term, that element of the left (some would say all of it) seeking to eliminate gender, nationalism, religion, family, cultural traditions, and traditional morality. Political correctness, third wave feminism, and the like. Communist utopia.
Oh, got you.
Actual, textbook Marxism is total equality in all things for all people. It is a Utopia by definition, in that it’s completely impossible because it neglects to take into account human nature.
In actual real-world terms there has never been a Communist-defined country that didn’t reek of rampant misogyny and blatant racism. (Read about the actual, written plan to “Russify” the Soviet Union by “breeding out” the people of color; it’s fascinatingly the exact opposite of American White Supremacist “logic” in that Neo Nazi’s can’t abide race mixing, while the Soviets actively encouraged it in hope someday all peoples of the USSR would “look” and “act” Russian. They used mandatory Army service to accomplish this by sending ethic Russians to the East Asian Republics, while bringing Asiatic citizens to what is now Russia, Ukraine and Belarus, knowing that people in their early 20s were likely to meet and marry during their stints. ) They were all kleptocracy’s marketed as communism to get the masses to rise up, but were actually just replacing emperors or kings with oligarchs or dictators.
Socialism is often equated here in the United State with communism to demonize the idea but is, in reality, simply an philosophy that means, to simplify the concept, a social safety net. The extent of that safety net, and what it provides, differs from implementation to implementation — beloved programs like Social Security, Medicare, FDIC insured funds, unemployment insurance etc. are all, technically, “socialist” ideas. I don’t see how we’ve allowed the idea that a the wealthiest country in the world should provide some baseline standard of survival to its most vulnerable citizens (children, the aged, the infirm or disabled) to be seen as a bad, or radical, thing.
Socialism can refer to the idea that certain things — building roads, providing health care, environmental protection, other health and safety standards — should not prioritize profit. It’s not saying that profit is bad, just that some things that provide for the use, comfort and safety of all shouldn’t be compromised in order to provide the maximum profit for a corporation or individual. In general, it’s the idea that SOME, not all, services are more valuable than profit margins.
Oh and, the term “cultural Marxist” is a boogeyman of the right. Like the “war on Christmas” it exists only in their imaginations and is yet another way to use deep-seeded fears to get certain malleable fools to vote against their best interests. “They” want to make being Christian and saying “Merry Christmas” illegal. (No one does.) “They” want to indoctrinate your children and turn them gay. (Not possible.) “They” will take away your guns and leave you defenseless. (No politician has ever campaigned on confiscating legal firearms.) It’s all in the same long, line of lies that feminism is the death of heterosexual families, that gay marriage leads to beastiality, that transgender people want to molest children, that birth control will destroy all morals, that rape can be prevented based on the victim’s behavior, that black men (or, in Trump’s case, immigrants) long to rape white women, etc. etc. … Actually, it’s astonishing, and telling, how many of their Right Wing bugaboos hinge on sex.
Republicans: They’re the party of “small gov’t” who want zero regulations on what is done in the boardroom, but endless regulations on what you can do in your bedroom.
It’s the modern day version of the “cultural Bolshevism” the National Socialists in Germany used to yell about.
@shura Exactly. Thank you.
This times 1000.
@Shura If your standard of decency is anything short of death camps then, yeah, so far Trump has been super!
People who believe that “racism” is an insult used to harasses white people, and not an actual, ingrained and highly systemic reality are, apparently, legion. The phrase, “But, I’m not a racist!” is always most angrily yelled by those who most obviously are.
As someone said, far more wittily than I, on Twitter after Trump’s famous comment … Pro Tip: Anyone who tells you he is the least racist person you’ve ever met is most definitely not.
Who knows if they are “hateful, racist scum”? That’s beside the point. They voted for hatred. That’s all we need to know.
2 days ago, I learned this:
My godmother, a mixed white and Cherokee female with a lesbian daughter and a Marine grandson married to an African-American woman voted for Trump and Pence because they are pro-guns. “They’ve got me on guns.”
Why. Why?!
Because the NRA has convinced paranoid people that the 2nd Amendment is the sum total, the apogee, of their rights and freedoms as Americans.
Wow, that’s crazy
Oh Bruce.
People voted for Trump because they share his values. Period. It wasn’t the economy, they only used that as a smokescreen, an excuse. All those hate groups understand this and it’s why they’ve become so ebullient and bold. I’m getting tired of all this naivete from the so-called left.
He is right though. Bigotry, rascism, misogyny, intolerance, incivility and violence are tragically going to become acceptable cultural norms. They aren’t going back in the bottle ever(not that they ever really were for some of us); we’ve turned that corner. No more room for American idealism and striving to be a better society for all. The GOP has worked too hard to establish them as their platform and the way they will continue ruling this country. The first thing the conservatives tried to do was eliminate their own Ethics guidelines and Oversight bodies. Notice Trump didn’t object to what they did, just their timing. Hello?!! And citizens are OK with this. The Day the f-ing Music Died.
I haven’t read the comments but here is my thought, why did some 40% of the eligible electorate fail to vote?
Lots of people didn’t support either one of them or some didn’t think their vote would matter because there was NO WAY Trump would win anyway. Too bad more people didn’t go vote instead of just saying who should have won
Um, some of them were prevented from voting by political rigging? Did the Carolinas escape your mind?
I did a quick scan and read a comment similar to mine about those who didn’t vote. My guess is a sizable number didn’t like either candidate or some thought HRC would win anyway. I lost my job of 25 years back in the 90s. NAFTA. I live on SS and a measly pension. I’ve been a life long democrat and I’m amused that anyone would think me an elite. What I think now is that Americans need to grow up and understand our world. My dad grew up in a time where you would have the same job and have a comfortable retirement. That went by the wayside years ago and coal miners who think DT will bring back jobs are delusional. In my state oil and gas revenues are way down and cost cutting will have to be the norm for our state budget. I believe people take comfort in the fake news. Killary is going to take our guns! It beats facing the reality of the world’s economy.
I call bullshit. I am a stay at home mom, trying desperately to find a job that works with my childrens school hours because we cant afford childcare – but jobs i’m applying for and not getting despite my extensive experience are either full time, but not paying enought to do daycare, or part time and conflict with said school hours. And so we subsist on my husbands paycheck, week by week, figuring out which bills to stall, which groceries to skip. Right now, I’m down to bologna (no cheese) sandwiches for lunch, going on day 6.
And yet, somehow, I recognized that there is NO EXCUSE to put a thing like that in power. I retain my human decency despite being broke and almost desperate. They have no excuse good enough.
Try Blogher, or Problogger for writing jobs if you can write. Churches always need part-time people. What skills can you do?
Thank you for the sites. I’m going to look at them.
The people I know who voted for Trump did so because their out of pocket ACA costs shot up to over 30k a year. I’m not kidding. About half of them can’t afford to insure their kids anymore, the other half are dead broke paying the premiums. Shocker: A few of them are black. One is Muslim.
The truth is that the economy really is not great, and while the ACA has literally saved a few people’s lives, it is bleeding many people dry to pay for people on low or no incomes. This is a system built on imbalance, and it thus will collapse at some point. That is one reason why Trump got votes, and it has nothing to do with black or white but with green.
Keep calling those on the right “racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, Islamaphobic” like a litany of tolerance. Ah, irony, it is a beautiful thing. The -isms ring true in a few cases, but not in most cases. David Duke and his ilk are a small minority that is actually roundly loathed on the right; try reading a few conservative forums instead of sticking to leftist ones, and you’ll be surprised.
Oh, and if Trump’s a liar, how about this? “If you like your insurance, you can keep your insurance.” LOL. Newsflash: If a politician is talking, s/he is lying.
Comrade Trump’s lies are insurmountable, daily and make his words worthless garbage. His statements and deeds during the campaign are unforgivable and treasonous. Newsflash … Obama was blocked by the GOP at every turn in regards to the Health Care details he promised so had to work as best he could around it. The GOP puts party over country every time.
Currently Trump is getting credit for ending the “ethics” scandal the GOP hoped to achieve. Media is same old, same old … not doing their job and not looking at the timeline. Aggravating.
One of the big lies Trump told to con voters was that he was getting rid of Obamacare. Just a few days after he was elected, he said it wasn’t all that bad and would keep most of it. @Nymeria, why is it “shocking” that a black or Muslim you know have trouble paying bills? Do you not know whites or Asians?
Trump ran the most hate filled, divisive campaigns that I have lived through in my adult life. And YES, it was chock full of all those “isms” that you don’t want to own now. Maybe not all of his voters were racists or sexists but by god they were A-okay with voting for someone who so clearly was. I will never, ever forget or help normalize the hate that he stirred up. You elected a con man. Own what you did, right wing!
Care to tell us in which states these people reside and which insurance plan they purchased? Because that is a great deal more important than their skin color or religion when you are making claims about the ACA. Especially as they are easily checked. Going forward, every time I see someone make that claim, I am going to ask that information. The state and the health insurance, because all of that is posted on state websites and easily found for verification.
I think it’s important to remember that progress is not some reversal in human nature but highly incremental policy change or social transformation (for which the unit of measurement is a generation). An optimistic view of America is just that–optimistic. This is the same country that has ALWAYS oppressed minority groups. It has systematically and viciously oppressed African-Americans more so than likely any other country. So…? Why is everyone falling over themselves with shock that in the span of a mere four or five decades, this sentiment–white supremacy, xenophobia, etc etc–still resonates? I personally don’t think it can be exorcised; I think it is inherent to capitalism (but that’s another story).
I think all white Americans have long been complacent on the issue of systemic racism. So congratulations. You finally have someone in office to make you sit up and take notice–because for the first time in a very long time, his speech and actions appear to threaten you in a way that black (and other) Americans have been threatened since always. There’s something so disingenuous about this Democrat rage. Like drawing a line and saying “all of us on this side are so enlightened, and you all there are awful.” No. You aren’t diametrically opposed. Complacency is not a virtue.