Shailene Woodley covers the April issue of Nylon to promote Insurgent. She talks about feminism again. To briefly recap, Shailene spoke last year about why she’s not a feminist: “I love men, and I think the idea of ‘raise women to power, take the men away from the power’ is never going to work out because you need balance. I’m very in touch with my masculine side.” Many of us rolled our eyes because Shailene didn’t understand feminism’s definition. She later “clarified” her thoughts: “The word ‘feminist’ is a word that discriminates, and I’m not into that.” Shailene didn’t claim to be misquoted but believed the original journo tried to “burn” her. Nylon picks up the discussion, and Shailene still doesn’t know what she’s talking about:
On not identifying as a feminist: “The reason why I don’t like to say that I am a feminist or I am not a feminist is because to me it’s still a label. I do not want to be defined by one thing. Why do we have to have that label to divide us? We should all be able to embrace one another regardless of our belief system and regardless of the labels that we have put upon ourselves.”
On media scrutiny of her words: “I mean, if we spent as much energy focusing on the genocide that’s going on right now in parts of Africa as we spent on that one article, think about what we could accomplish. Change is not going to come from focusing on the small things that actors say.”
On her career path: “Two years ago it was very easy for me to understand and also emotionally tell the story of a 16-year-old, and now, I feel like I could not tell that story as truthfully because I just can’t empathize with it. I’m not there on an emotional level anymore.”
Acting doesn’t define her: “It does take up 10 to 11 months of my entire year, so it is my career now. It’s still just a hobby, just something that I live and breathe to do. In a few years, I’ll probably take some years off to explore the other things that I’d love to do while I’m still in my 20s.”
[From Nylon]
The last quote shows how insulated Shailene is from civilian life. Shailene begrudgingly admits that acting might be her career because it takes up most of her year. Most people would jump at the chance to have 1-2 months of annual free time. She takes that major perk for granted. Shailene believes she’s enlightened and in touch with world because she pays attention to some social issues, but she picks and chooses. Feminism is important on a worldwide basis, and women’s rights tie in directly to some of the international conflicts she’s talking about. Sometimes it’s hard to see the forest for the trees, right?
Photos courtesy of Hilary Walsh/Nylon
I’m missing the gene to love this one.
Agreed. She seemingly comes at things with the best of intentions, but the end-product always makes me cringe. I understand and can appreciate the notion that certain descriptions and labels have become so mischaracterized (rightly or wrongly…usually wrongly) as to become charged with prejudicial meaning at the onset. That being said, one still needs words and language to describe a general concept or embodiment of ideas such as feminism. Feigned ignorance of the words, ideas, and descriptions is rather shortsighted on her part because we can never presuppose that people generally “get” such seemingly basic concepts on faith alone without having a discussion involving basic terms to describe those concepts. That dialogue, more often than not, will require descriptors, which are tantamount to labels—as loaded as that word is.
Again, she means well, but for her to presuppose basic understanding of what makes sense to HER without using LANGUAGE is rather naive on her part—if not arrogant.
Maybe because she’s just unbearable. It’s not her fault that she’s not the brightest but why is she famous and everyone asks for her opinion? Ugh! Shut up already!
Me too. I get why at times Kristen Stewart or JLaw grate on some people but for the most part I find them harmless and tolerable. I actually like Jlaw but this chick….I just cannot with her.
What I don’t understand is why she keeps coming back to this – her PR team must have told her to drop it, which makes me think that she must be fairly stubborn, or not particularly reflective or self-aware.
I’m not going to read this thread because every time the topic is feminism, it seems to become a race issue and it just bugs me. Divide and conquer.
She just made it real easy for me not to care about her. Too bad. All she has to do is open a dictionary and look up what the word Feminism means. Women who denigrate feminists and who are deliberately ignorant about feminism do not turn me on at all. They’re either weak, stupid or both.
“The reason why I don’t like to say that I am a feminist or I am not a feminist is because to me it’s still a label. I do not want to be defined by one thing. Why do we have to have that label to divide us? We should all be able to embrace one another regardless of our belief system and regardless of the labels that we have put upon ourselves.”
When your belief system holds a class of people as somehow inferior and less deserving of basic human rights, such as self-determination, and allows for discrimination in hiring, promotion, benefits, and salary packages, NO, I will not embrace your belief system or tolerate your ignorance.
I will tolerate your oil-pulling, clay eating, and sunning of intimate body parts because you think doing so combats yeast infections, but I will not tolerate a belief system that allows for women like Lily Ledbetter to go into retirement with a pension that is less than that of her male counterpart who did the exact same job, just because you are too lazy to educate yourself about the real world and the meanings of words.
+ a million Lilacflowers, very well said
…and she’s obviously had enough time to think about her original quote, and find a way to spin it so that it’s about “labels” and inclusiveness suddenly.
Here was her original quote about feminism, which so clearly shows a lack of understanding of what feminism means:
“No, because I love men, and I think the idea of ‘raise women to power, take the men away from the power’ is never going to work out because you need balance … And also I think that if men went down and women rose to power, that wouldn’t work either. We have to have a fine balance. My biggest thing is really sisterhood more than feminism. I don’t know how we as women expect men to respect us because we don’t even seem to respect each other.”
Perfect, Lilacflowers. Standing ovation.
Well said, kittens and puppies to you! 🙂
Thanks, all.
Bravo, Lilacflowers.
This girl sounds dense.
Well said, Lilacflowers.
It’s lovely that the women ahead of her have paved the way for her to not give a crap about feminists. You are welcome, Shailene.
Are these extra-special embrace-repelling labels she buys? Where does she get them? Sixlet Minor needs some for family parties, to prevent all the aunties from kissing him. If I pinned a label saying “This is what a feminist looks like” to his shirt, would all the aunties stop with that dreadful embracing shiznit? Because labels?
This could be a revolutionary breakthrough for one 11-year-old boy.
I often confuse labels with lapels but I fear the aunties may embrace him more if he labeled himself a feminist.
Intergenerational snogging is a feminist issue!
There. His new slogan. I’ll get it printed. On a lapel/label.
Oh honestly, there’s nothing left to do other than mock this silly child – Shailene, not the deliciously snoggable Sixlet Minor – is there?
Nothing else left at all. And she provides so much rich material for mocking.
I would suggest that on her next film, Shaleine loudly proclaim that she would be happy to receive 20% less than her equally situated male co-stars but I oppose gender inequality so I can’t really do that.
I love you, Lilacflowers.
^^^^^ Thank you for saving me the trouble of composing a response. This is perfectly said, lilacflowers.
Thank you and you are most welcome.
Lilacflowers, you are really on top of your game today. Well said and Brava!
What a grade-A mug!
Someone please explain to this person that feminism is not merely a label, neither is it a mere label in general that is dividing us.
Now if you will excuse me – I need to go facepalm myself repeatedly.
Why doesn’t someone tell this twit to STFU?
Ugh, she is the worst! She does not come off as half as smart as she seems to envision herself. I feel like I’m back in freshman year of college listening to 18 year olds get stoned and talk philosophy. Maybe she’s not dumb, but if not these quotes should be SO embarrassing for her when she’s older.
Didn’t she just say how lucky she is to have been acting since she was a kid? Maybe should’ve spent some more time in school. There is a reason for education and it’s not just to get a job.
(If it was some other airhead who said it, I’m sorry for my mistake)
oh girl… just STAHP.
I mean, I’ve been thinking she’s not that bad lately but this interview reiterates why I just can’t get behind her as an actress. She’s so stupid that she herself cannot comprehend how stupid she is. She thinks she’s being all philosophical and deep but it’s just her being stupid. Again.
Me, too. She went away for awhile and I forgot what an ignoramus she was. Just remembered.
I would like to +1 you here.
The word “feminism” is like a litmus test for stupidity. Just casually mention the word and watch idiots jump expose themselves.
Yes!!!!!!! Why can’t these girls at least fake it? Someone around them surely could tell them- just say yes, I’m a feminist.
Or they could just say “no comment” if they don’t want to respond or don’t know how to respond.
I would rather they be honest and say they don’t fully understand it yet, or don’t think about it much, rather then go off on uninformed ramblings like her “no, because I love men” stuff.
You and I both, lucy2!!
I’m totally behind this idea.
It’s very convenient, isn’t it? Better than a sign. And if they’re REALLY dumb, you can figure out where they get it, thanks to the same-old, same-old crap that anti-feminists spread around.
Woodley herself has some airy-fairy sh*t mixed in that I don’t recognize.
She’s both dumb and dumber.
Lol. Agreed.
By now, she’s into the “dumbest” category. It’s getting pretty full in there…
I just can’t with this girl
maybe feminists need to understand when a woman says no to feminism no means no.
Yeah we should just let every ignorant dilettante to wallow in and spread their idiocy.
The problem isn’t that she’s not a feminist.
The problem is that she doesn’t even know what that means but is trying to make statements about it.
So, are you saying that you are want less pay for doing the same job with equal or even lesser qualifications than a male counterpart? I’m sure somebody will be happy to hire you.
I would really love for a women who can eloquently put to me their reasons for not being feminist, I’m open and I would love to hear it, no sarcasm intended whatsoever. You must have reasons for believing what you believe and I would like to hear what they are, genuinely.
you dont need to be a feminist to believe in equality. what kind of nonsense.
really this is the basis of “us vs them” it leads to the feeling of superiority because well we are the good ones arent we. we define that word and only we and if someone disagrees they dont want equal rights. must feel like the caothlic church in the middle ages. HERETIC!!!
the dictionary definition of racism is also different from the definition in social justice circels. so whats the true definition now?
if you want my reason why i am not a feminist, because the movement is simply toxic as long as people like Jessica Valenti can call themselves feminists i want to be as far as possible away from that term. same goes for atheism. right now its just a term for people who hate muslims. i dont believe in god and would never identify as an atheist.
If you believe that men and women are equal, you are a feminist, according to the dictionary definition of the word. So eschew the “label” all you want, but it won’t change what you are.
Likewise, if you lack belief in God, you are an atheist, by dictionary definition of the term.
As far as atheists being a term for “people who hate Muslims”, I assume you live somewhere outside of the United States? Any atheist in this country will tell you that we don’t GAF what about what Muslims believe in. Live and let live.
@Maria You’re a feminist, honey, by the dictionary definition, if you believe that men and women should be treated equally in society, you are a feminist. You are also an atheist, and yeah there might be a small branch of atheists who hate muslims (although this has not been my experience AT ALL). It’s like saying that Muslims hate the West purely based on the actions of ISIS, you’re generalising and you will be wrong every single time. Your dislike for words ending in -ist doesn’t mean that you’re not these two things, even though that’s not how you would personally describe yourself, your beliefs are in line with feminism and atheism. *shrugs*
Maria – feminism is the complete opposite of us versus them! I’m really curious why you are so anti – feminism! Just because feminism the word does sound more female-centric doesn’t mean it excludes men at all, I heard something once that said ‘up until the age of 8 there is no difference in the amount boys and girls cry’ or words to that effect – and if this has anything to do with the social stigma of a male not being ‘man’ enough should he show emotion then this is wrong. A male relative of mine took his own life because he had problems, he never spoke to anyone about them, none of us knew, he felt from somewhere he had to put a strong face on it. Feminism is about breaking down the barriers put on us by gender expectations, both male and female and therefore removing the negative effects of them.
I believe we should all be equal, obviously the inequalities are more extensive than I have talked about here but the point of feminism is everyone should have the same opportunities and not lose out or suffer in life because of gender, race, sexual orientation.
Can’t we all just get along!!
So, rape jokes and completely misinformed notions about religion, and feminism which you’re shirking the label for? Yeah, that sounds like a well founded train of thought.
Do explain how not believing in a higher power isn’t atheism? Because …pretty sure that’s literally atheism.
What country do you hail from? Because I’m going to assume you couldn’t bare to state you were Canadian, American, Australian, etc etc because there’s terrible people who identify as such. Because that’s your logic on feminism being toxic, is it not? As long as there’s a couple shit people supporting something, that corrupts the whole movement, or title, or label or whatever?
Pretty sure that when I go to work in the IT field, and continually have customers calling in and then asking to speak to “one of the guys” (who will tell them the exact same thing I did – also I’ve been here longer than all but one guy) or who ask “oh honey…what do you do here? What? You work on my website too? Well that’s super, sweetheart!” and all of the support emails addressed as “dear sirs” from clients I have dealt with just as often there is no standard of equality. I’m either treated with kid gloves, or I’m blasted out because clearly having a uterus makes me incapable of working with code or giving the correct answers. THIS is why I need feminism. Every single work day I’m reminded of just how unequal the world is – and I’m in a company that really does focus on equal pay for equal work.
And Dani2 is still looking for that woman who can eloquently put to her their reason for not being a feminist…Maria, you’re just wrong. So what if someone you don’t like identifies as a feminist or atheist? I’m a Christian, and their are millions of people I can’t stand who identify as Christians. Just be who you are.
@GNAT yes girl, the search continues…
it is still my CHOICE to not call myself one. how about simply accepting a choice of a woman? also what about the consent? i dont consent being called that word. i want nothing to do with people like that. how about not forcing people into movements they dont want to be in?
why do so many feminists laugh about vulnerable men with their hateful “male tears” tweets?
why are so many campaigning against innocene until proven guilty?
why do they get worked up about a shirt a scientist wore at the rosetta landing but are silent when men are being raped by the government? (“rectal feeding”)
thats not me, i am not a feminists and dont call me one, please.
Maria- where the hell are you finding these people? Honest to god.
I have never once laughed about a vulnerable man, or male tears.
I have issue with the shirt because he chose to wear a bunch of half naked women in provocative poses in a work environment. Should that shirt exist? No. If he wears it around his house – I’m not going to know. But the man went to a public, professional event, speaking about scientific achievements and wearing a shirt that alienates women. And then we wonder why more women don’t enter into male dominated careers, or why they don’t stay. I can’t stop him from owning misogynistic t-shirts. But there’s no way that he should have been allowed to wear that to a professional event.
Rectal feeding is most certainly a touchy subject – but at the same time it’s the prisons responsibility to keep prisoners alive. Do I think they should use other methods? Of course. But I’m pretty sure there’s nobody saying “hey guys- let’s rape these men with feeding tubes – the women we’lll ignore, they can do whatever. I just really want to shove a tube up a dudes butt”
I have no problem not calling you a feminist. Because honestly – I don’t want to be lumped into a group with someone who honestly believes that the majority of feminists are the way you describe them.
So here’s a question. What about the self titled meninists who are doxxing women who speak out against the misogynistic culture in video games? Is it okay that they release their private details, threaten them with rape and murder, and spread their addresses, and the addresses of their family members throughout the internet? What about the men who think they deserve to have sex with a woman just because it should be owed to them. What about the women who are being raped and beaten and their attackers walk free? What about the people who go out of their way to spread hate towards the women who are trying to make positive change in the world so that no girl feels like she can’t accomplish something great?
You make it sound like only women are feminists. How is it ‘us against them’ and unfair to men when there are many men who self identify as a feminist? My husband who works in construction trades, on job sites with a bunch of big, burly dudes who spit and curse and catcall will say he’s a feminist without even thinking twice about it. But I suppose, my want for equality, safety, and to be taken seriously is somehow hurting him, or pitting him against me?
@Maria: You don’t have to call yourself feminist if you don’t want to. But you need to understand the term first to make a choice (whether you do or don’t, I don’t know, but based on your answers I’m not sure you do).
About male tears: Jessica Valenti is only one person. And most feminists don’t have a problem with men showing vulnerability and they do not laugh at people in trouble (of neither sex). Where do you get these strange notions from?
And the t-shirt thing came from one blog and was then blown out of proportion. I thought that was silly too and I actually do identify as a feminist.
Campaigning against innocence until proven guilty and rectal feeding: you’ll have to explain those because I’ve never heard of those two.
OK, googled rectal feeding. That’s terrible and shouldn’t be done (I’m basing this on one article I’ve just read so you can tell me more). To any person of any gender because it’s entering one’s body without their consent. Which is a feminist thought as well, that nobody should be abused. So not sure how this is helping to build your anti-feminist case?
@TheOriginalKitten Not so sure that’s true about atheism in the US, one of the big faces, Sam Harris, is a raging Islamophobe particularly when it comes to Palestinians, Dawkins has also made some interesting comments (sure, he’s English but he’s still held up as a poster boy in US organised atheism), and sadly both have made incredibly sexist comments. Not to mention the outspoken atheist in Chapel Hill who murdered 3 Muslim students last month.
I personally identify as an atheist and while none of my friends are religious I have certainly noticed that the more out-and-proud atheists among them target Islam more than any other religion (that’s just my experiences though). And atheism conferences etc are notoriously under attended by women because of their old boys club feel (and incidences of sexual harassment).
That said though, I agree with the rest of your comment, even if I don’t align with all or any movements within atheism or feminism, I still identify as both. To some extent I can understand why people reject certain labels when factions within those movements are assh*les, but to me that makes it even more important to reclaim these words from people who are co-opting them.
On a completely different tangent, I’m getting increasingly frustrated by people who constantly eschew “labels”, not because of any concrete reasoning, but because they think they are such special snowflakes that no words could possibly exist to describe their enlightened beliefs and selves *looks at Shailene*.
Maria,
“…because the movement is simply toxic as long as people like Jessica Valenti can call themselves feminists i want to be as far as possible away from that term.”
—————————————————————————-
Substitute “as long as people like the Westboro Baptist Church can call themselves Christians…” and I would still never want to be as far away as possible from that term. I am a Christian, and no matter what some nutcases and crackpots that claim to be Christian do, doesn’t mean that I support or identify with “their” brand at all!
Maria: who told you atheists hate Muslims? That’s the most ignorant (Oxford dictionary definition) statement i’ve ever heard.
And honey, if you aren’t a feminist, what the hell are you doing expressing an opinion. In public no less. I take it that these views you hold are your master’s opinions since you aren’t a feminist. Non feminists can’t hold their own opinions you see nor can they sprout their master’s opinion on a public forum without his permission. I’m assuming you hold no rights except what your master allows you to do. That’s the lot of non feminists you see.
I can’t reiterate enough how much you need to research these terms before making such blank statements. No snark or sarcasm in my comments.
Your comments about Jessica Valenti indicate your sources.
whats so bad about the Guardian? also trying to say a source is biased is always a weak point, it shows you cant argue with the content.
you are attacking me instead of arguing with the points. you are trying to take my credibility away with a very vague claim instead of simply debating. very weak.
Cite me ONE THING that Valenti has said that you take so much exception to you reject a whole political philosophy. …..while betraying the usual strawfeminist myths about said philosophy.
go through her whole comment is free section. not only does she gleefully say “its good when more men are being punished” clue: it should be “rapists getting punished” or saying “we shouldnt feel bad about men being falsley accused” as if someone could not have both emapthy for a rape victim and a falsely accused men. she also constantly fights against the presumption of innocence and is in favour of vigilante action. Oh and she also posts “male tears” tweets.
read the comments and understand why so many liberal commenters, mostly male i assume, have problems with her and dont see other of her ilk calling her out on her fear mongering and revenge fantasies.
@Maria
I think you’re misunderstanding the origins of the Male Tears meme, it has absolutely nothing to do with revelling in male vulnerability. So often when women identify as feminist and/or discuss feminist issues they face a barrage comments calling them man-haters. As such, Male Tears was born as an in-joke between feminists. So many discussions get derailed by accusations of misandry, that some feminists just started saying “yup, I hate men so much I bathe in their tears”. It’s SARCASM.
This article explains more fully the use of ironic misandry: http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/08/08/ironic_misandry_why_feminists_joke_about_drinking_male_tears_and_banning.html
“you are attacking me instead of arguing with the points. you are trying to take my credibility away with a very vague claim instead of simply debating. very weak. ”
@Maria, but isn’t that exactly what you are doing to others on this very thread? Also, aren’t you deflecting and avoiding instead of simply debating? That practice and your repeated insistence on dragging in irrelevant topics, such as: rectal feeding; communism; “innocent until proven guilty”; atheism; and equating Jessica Valenti as speaking on behalf of everyone who is feminist take your credibility away. I tried to debate with you in a civil manner and, after claiming that “sexual assault” is pretty much universally understood, which it is not, and that the court interpretations don’t matter, when they do, you have completely ignored everything I have put to you.
“Go read her comments section?”
No.
That is not how it works, but now I’m sure you’re getting your accusations from Reddit and A Voice For Men. You guys really need to get some new material.
ah good when you can build up a strawman and just ignore what i say.
“you disagree you must be evil and read sites i dont not like therefore i do not need to go into the discussion.”
this is exactly the black and white worldview i was talking about, thanks for proving my point.
thats a very common tactic, you can also see this with Edward Snowden, not what he says is commented on but that he had to flee to Moscow is commented on. easier to attack the person than the contents. especially if you just make accusations without evidence.
Yeah as opposed to “I don’t like this woman so this whole movement must be toxic”.
Nevermind that you’re even able to voice your misinformed opinion because women before you fought for the ability to do so. I really would like to think you’re a troll, because the things you complain about other posters doing are the exact things you’re doing.
@Maria, I’m going to point out that you have built up a strawman by demonizing Jessica Valenti and holding her up as the spokesperson for every feminist, which she isn’t, while avoiding and ignoring every point I have made. Points that I made in a very civil manner.
You seem to be reading off a rather disjointed script that was handed to you by somebody else.
I am sort of with Maria on this one. I am aware that I *am* a Feminist because I believe in equal rights for men and women (and those who do not fit in to black and white gender categories) However, I think Feminist/Feminism is a toxic term and prefer to identify as an equalist. When I call myself an equalist I have a chance to explain what I mean and start a conversation – when I call myself a feminist people tend to make a lot of assumptions and the conversation doesn’t get started, or ends up in an argument.
I also identify as “non theist” over atheist, just as a personal preference.
It’s great you believe in equal rights but I’ve always thought terms like equalist and humanist do tend to shove women aside – as if by taking then out of the term we are all already on some sort of equal playing field when we’re not.
This is just semantics, though, correct? Being one thing but calling yourself something else to…make it more palatable for others (trying to understand where you are coming from)?
Also, what is an equalist? Genuinely curious.
Ange, I don’t think the term feminist is as all encompassing as it should be. I am a person first, a woman second. (Thats just how I feel, I realize other’s disagree) I believe everyone should have equal rights, regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, religious or political affiliations, personal wealth, job….every person on earth should matter equally.
A cut above, I hope that answers your questions/explains it a bit better.
@Gretchen citing Sam Harris or Dawkins is incredibly ignorant. Atheist don’t have anything equivalent to a spiritual leader. Islamophobes and misogynists come in many shapes sizes and color and ideologies.
Just a food for thought for the feminists- the text book definition of the ‘feminist’ which you insist upon is very different from the street or contemporary definition. When people say they are not a feminist, they are speaking in terms of how the word or movement is understood by the masses on grounds. The perimeter of the feminism movement is expanding and evolving daily and it’s current form is something which in my opinion is promoting the divisions in the society amongst other negative things. That is not to say that the movement doesn’t have its achievements or advantages. That’s probably why a lot of people, women included shy away from that tag or why it’s become a derogatory term of sort, IMO.
Extremely doubtful that Shaleine Woodley is reading textbooks on feminism.
If you ask people, definition of sexual assault changes too, and yet we shouldn’t use the term wrongly just because random people on the street don’t know what it means, no?
only that the word of sexual assault is pretty self explanatory. the word feminism does not mean “equal”.
And furthermore, people like her who talk rubbish about things they don’t understand are guilty of the term being constantly misused. Instead of educating themselves, they use the term wrongly and others, equally clueless, think it’s the truth.
Actually no, Maria, the definition of “sexual assault” is not self explanatory at all. Courts have been struggling with it for over a century now. Do you realize that in some jurisdictions, it is only “sexual assault” if a penis penetrates a vagina? That unwanted touching, forced oral or forced anal are not “sexual assault” in those jurisdictions?
the TERM is self explanatory. what the legal system makes of it is the completly different matter as that is rarely based on the reality of life. like when a home owner has to pay a burglar that gets bitten by the dog.
feminism isnt self explanatory. its always what the mainstream press makes out of it, right now its equality even if the word clearly only focuses on women.
From Merriam Webster online dictionary: “feminisim”
: the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities
: organized activity in support of women’s rights and interests
From Oxford English online dictionary: “feminism” The advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.
These are the two mainstream definitions, which, apparently, are very different than the one some people here are claiming are the definition of the word “feminism.”
@maria the legal system takes it’s definition of sexual assault from real life incidences so I don’t know what you mean about it not being based on the reality of life. Secondly, sexual assault cases that go to the court have in turn influenced those who are responsible for drafting pieces of legislation and this in turn bleeds into the media and how people perceive the word in everyday life.
And I think what you mean by saying that feminism isn’t self explanatory is that the word isn’t “equalism” and of course the word focuses on women as women are the ones who have had to fight for equality. You’re sounding very much like those people that complain about gay pride and how it divides us, and if this is your reason for not identifying as a feminist (even though your belief in equality lines up very nicely with feminist beliefs), then it’s not a very good one.
@Maria, the person who enjoys assaulting others typically would have a very different definition than someone who considers him or herself to have been assaulted, so no, the TERM is most definitely not self-explanatory and yes, the legal system’s usage and definition most definitely is the reality of life because it determines whether that person, who didn’t consider forcibly sodomizing that woman in the parking lot to be an assault, continues to walk our streets or spends some time in a prison
Maria, the term “sexual assault” is not self explanatory. Yes we can guess that it has to be an assault and it has to be sexual, but f.e. while I consider date rapes* sexual assaults, I personally know people who claim that those are not assaults, just sexual acts. So in truth it’s even worse than with feminism. Everyone seems to have their own idea where sexual assault starts and ends.
*To expalin: by date rape in this case I mean when a person is so intoxicated (not drugged by a third party) that they collapse and then other people feel free to do what they want with them. I was a teenager in the 90s and that was considered the victim’s fault. By the looks of it online, not much has changed. But in my eyes, it’s pure rape.
All I can imagine when reading your post is Woodley sitting there with a big HUH? WHAT? on her face.
BTW, the general populace does not follow “the movement”, which is rather quiet these days. The general populace encounters daily life with discriminatory practices in place. The only people really paying attention to “the movement” are those who like to claim that the movement is causing divisions. This whole “the movement is causing divisions” attitude sends the message that people deserve to be repressed because their packaging of their beliefs upsets those who don’t want to share (notice “share”, not “lose”) power. As for causing divisions in society, March Madness causes divisions. Starbucks v Dunkin Donuts causes divisions. There is nothing wrong with such divisions. But divisions that insist that 51% of the population should be denied equal rights, equal opportunities, and equal pay simply because of their genitalia; well, such division should not be acceptable.
Very well said, thank you.
Lilacflowers everything single thing you’ve said in this thread is on point.
Thank you. But the people I’m debating with seem to be ignoring me.
The reason people perceive feminism as some evil, man-hating doctrine isn’t because of feminists, it’s because so many people are threatened by women getting equal rights. Hateful people have been attacking women since the suffragettes campaigned for the vote.
thats a rather one sided view of things and a very easy copout. feminists have a lot to do with the bad reputation of the word. its easy to always boil it down “YOU ARE THREATENED BECAUSE WE ARE SO AWESOME” instead of looking at oneself and taking inventory.
do you think the campaign against innocent until proven guilty will make people think good about feminists? or will lots of people think “well they actually want to have less rights for men”?
you are taking all the blame on others and point your finger, yes there are a lot of people hating women but there are also a lot of feminists who are horrible people and they get a lot of time in the media because the low voices sell.
do you think only christians have problems with atheists? or do you think people have massive problems with atheists after talking to people like Dawkins? or seeing the outright hatred some of them have against people of faith? as i said above, i dont believe in god but i refuse to be called an atheist. for the very same reasons. atheists have a similar PR problem because of their loud voices, it not just christian nutters ruining their repuation.
by ruling out that feminists could even have the slighest part in the reputation of their movement you are again confirming this black and white “us vs them world view. “We cant be at fault”
Maria-you’re so invested in thinking that feminism is the root of all evil, it makes me sad.
It’s interesting how you espouse this idea that all feminists are irate and have a holier-than-thou attitude, yet you’re replying to every post with angry and defensive, slightly antagonistic rants.
In contrast, the feminists on this thread seem very patient and understanding when it comes to explaining what feminism means to them.
Really, you don’t even see that you’re the one with the very black and white attitude, you’re the one that’s creating this “us vs them” mentality.
Feminism isn’t the enemy, Maria.
Maria, I disagree with almost everything you say, and find your “reasoning” extremely flawed…BUT I have to admit that we were having a discussion on here a week or so ago about Amal Clooney, and there were these women who claimed to have spearheaded the entire feminist movement in the sixties making the very hateful comments about how she couldn’t possibly be worth anything because she was married to a famous man. It made no sense whatsoever and doesn’t really matter to this argument anyway, but my point is, I saw how people like that could turn someone off from identifying as a feminist. They were just hate filled. It was as if they hated her for getting married. So I get what you mean about a segment of population identifying as feminist being people you don’t want to be associated with. But, Maria, every group has that, large or small. You still believe in equality for women, so why let them chase you away from who you really are?
To believe unfairly that all people or things with a particular characteristic are the same = stereotype.
Maria, I have no idea what this innocent versus guilty thing is that you keep invoking but whatever it is, I fail to see how it relates to feminism or equality. BTW, guilt v innocence until proven is a legal construct that varies according to country. But you pretty much rejected legal constructs as not applying in the real world elsewhere on this thread, so you are all over the place. Also, Alice Paul was force fed, maybe that makes you feel better?
‘Mermaid Style Mastered’ might be even worse than ‘Everything with Fringe’. And then metallic lipstick, with neon mascara, and 1999 nostalgia all in one issue, sounds like a steaming pile of hot mess.
Mermaid style with metallic fringe? Somebody alert Sophie Hunter Cumberbatch.
I forgot Punky Dinosaur hair styles.
“On media scrutiny of her words: “I mean, if we spent as much energy focusing on the genocide that’s going on right now in parts of Africa as we spent on that one article, think about what we could accomplish. Change is not going to come from focusing on the small things that actors say.”
I have the time and the energy to do both.
Poor Shailene. I get the feeling her brain can only hold onto one tiiiiiny little thought at a time.
Maybe she should stop spending 11 months of the year making movies and go help in Africa then. Otherwise, she needs to accept that people can think and talk about 2 (or gasp! even more) issues at the same time.
Yeah, that’s the oldest deflection technique in the world. We can’t worry about A because B is worse. So stupid.
The notion that we can’t worry about multiple issues simultaneously is incredibly simplistic.
Shailene could use a class in critical thinking, and potentially could stand to read more about argumentation on the whole.
Oh, please, oh please, let her fall from favor ( and out of the media) ASAP. I just loathe this nitwit more than any celeb I can think of.
She needs some humility.
And a brain.
I wish she would do a Taylor Swift and admit she was wrong about feminism, learn what it is and then decide if she is or isn’t a feminist.
*Face palm*
i am curious, how many of you identify as communists? communism is the believe that all people are equal, of sharing and not ownership and promotes the absense of social classes.
so how many of you identify as communists? if not, are you against abolishing social classes and are you on the side of the workers or the corporations?
OK – you win random post of the day as far as I’m concerned.
But in all seriousness, I think it’s naive to believe that any one form of government – in actual practice, not theory – has it’s fair share of social class warfare/issues and of course corruption and self-interest within the governing body. For me, I’d rather stick with democracy because at least I won’t end up in a camp, Siberia, or just DEAD for speaking out against my government.
its not random, its directly related.
why would you think communism means no democracy?
what i want to say is the whole discussion “feminism means equality and if you dont call yourself one you hate women” its comparable to the communism debate.
you already have those ideas about it in the head when the simple DEFINITION of communism means something else. just like lots of feminists do something else with their word. just like lots of communist claiming to fight for equality of all end up installing a totalitarian government. its lipservice with no meaning.
so im wondering if its SO EASY AND OBVIOUS to call yourself a feminists why dont you guys call yourselfs communists which shares a lot of goals with your defintion of feminism.
oh and about the camp comment, have you heard about Guantanamo?
“why would you think communism means no democracy?”
I’ll take a stab at this one: ummmm, China?
Ok so maybe China is technically democratic, but without constitutional liberalism, democracy doesn’t mean much. It’s not true freedom, or how we understand democracy in the West.
I don’t know enough on this subject to comment.
Feminism and Communism are not analogous.
Feminism is a collection of ideologies with one common goal: to advance women’s rights in a largely patriarchal society.
Communism encompasses a variety of schools of thought including Marxism and Anarchism.
Even so, I think most of us would agree that the original idea of Communism appeared to be a perfect theory, but in practice proved otherwise.
Most Communist countries seem more like Fascist countries, yet feminism has never been corrupted to that point, and still remains an ideology that effectively advocates for women’s access to the same political, social, economical, and cultural rights as men.
of course you cant compare it, mainly because as of now there wasnt a feminist party ruling a country. having that power also means showing ones true colors.
i wasnt going for that. i was talking about the idea and peoples reactions to it and i think thats very comparable. especially in the USA where its an insult. so why are people stupid if they dont want that label (while never saying they are against equal rights or did Shaileene do that? no she didnt) but dont call themselves communists? and attach peoples actions to the idea/movement of communism while people arent allowed to attach crazy feminists demands to the movement?
if people can think some people abusing the term communism to reach their own goals why shouldnt we think the same thing about feminists?
also there were no real communist countries. as there were still a very prominent ruling class. or name me one example of a true communistic society where everyone is equal and nobody is wealthier than the rest.
you know why because people only paid lipservice to the ideas and never actually did something for it. just like politicians talk about freedom when they tak away rights. (women actually had higher employment rates in the USSR and East Germany and in some countries even higher education than in capitalist countries)
so, Kitten, if we break it down to “feminism means equality” and look at the idea of communism and do the same, are you one? would you call yourself one publicly?
With all due respect, I’m having trouble understanding your point. Are you upset that people in the US aren’t calling themselves Communists?
I think that if Shailene was saying “I’m not a Communist because I don’t believe that one political party should control a nation”, then yeah, I bet a lot of Communists would have something to say about that.
That’s what you’re ignoring–the fact that Shailene’s original comment about feminism showed that she didn’t understand the basic definition of the word.
People are coming down hard on her not because she doesn’t self-identify as a feminist, but because she doesn’t seem to understand what feminism means.
“People are coming down hard on her not because she doesn’t self-identify as a feminist, but because she doesn’t seem to understand what feminism means.”
thats what i am saying about communism. dont you think people have a poor understanding of the term, as shown in this thread, too? they dont answer the original idea but what people did who claimed to be communists. the same goes for feminism. people see what some people who call themselves feminists do and dont want to be part of that.
several polls show that people are in favour of equal rights while not wanting to be called feminists. i am sure if we did the same thing with communism we would get very similiar results. being against the label but agreeing with the idea. and the reasons are the same, because of toxic people in both movements and propaganda against both movements, too.
my point is if we simply break it down to “do you agree with the absolute basic idea” you can compare the views on feminism and communism. being against communism does not mean you are against the equality of people as not identifying as a feminist means you are against equal rights for women.
Who are these people though? Everyone I know agrees that communism is a fantastic idea in theory, but doesn’t work in practice.
The same cannot be said about feminism.
In order to compare the two and people’s reactions to each term, you’d have to draw a parallel between the repercussions of Communism and the repercussions of Feminism.
So what are all the terrible things (propaganda, toxic people that you speak of) that have come out of the feminist movement?
The most negative outcome of Communism, to my understanding, is a lack of citizens’ rights.
What has feminism done that is on par with that?
@Maria – “…of course you cant compare it, mainly because as of now there wasnt a feminist party ruling a country”. There are currently and historically many matriarchal societies where women rule(d). Currently, there are the Ede people of Vietnam, the Mosuo People of China, the Native American Hopi people, the Chambri of Papua New Guinea, the Tehuantepec people of Mexico and various other indigenous peoples in both the new and old worlds. Research into the Celtic societies show that the power of women covered legal codes pertaining to marriage, divorce, property ownership, and the right to rule.
I’d say these women are/were feminists in the truest sense of the word.
You actually hit the nail on the head. ‘the original idea of Communism appeared to be a perfect theory, but in practice proved otherwise.’
This is exactly what @Maria i talking about. The original idea of feminism appeared to be a perfect theory, but in practice proved otherwise. It is that flawed execution, which puts me off from feminism IMO.
What you describe is socialism, and if you took totalitarism out of communism it could be a system that is much more fair than capitalism.
there is no totalitarism in communism. states that CALLED themselves communists were/are totalitarian. the idea is by definition NOT.
@ Franca. Totally agree. I consider myself a socialist and a feminist. Equality for all.
Because it doesn’t work?
I don’t because I believe all people should have an equal start and equal chances, but I disagree with “no ownership” concept. And I believe people who work the hardest and produce the most should be the most rewarded. This negates the existence of social classes as we know them but creates new ones, so it by definition does not belong to the communist ideology.
People who work the hardest being rewarded most is an utopia and a myth in capitalism.
I agree. And I think capitalism sucks too. But I’m saying that would be my ideal. So I’m far from a communist.
Seriously, the way you rant and fling sh*t at feminists kind of belies your constant accusations about feminism. Your talking points are straight from MRA Web sites…..including your accusations against Jessica Valenti.
Hi Maria, and hi to all the other lovely ladies debating on this post.
The thing is that communism, as stated by other people above, does work in theory, but not in practice, mainly because of the concept of individualism. However, feminism (i.e. equality for all, no matter the gender, sexuality, how you identify yourself) also works in practice. The idea behind it is that you WON’T be treated less favorably because of a biological characteristic (i.e. having a vagina, breasts, whatever, or being intersexual etc…) or a sociocultural/historic characteristic (i.e. what are still considered “feminine” traits). That does work in practice; if it helps you understand please compare it to someone having blonde hair and someone being brunette. You probably wouldn’t make a distinction because of those superficial traits. Any society would still function if we managed to not make that divide (us vs them which you keep going on about). Therefore, no, the comparison you’re making doesn’t work.
You make your point very well. Kuddos. On paper, the definition and purpose/aim of ‘communism’ is very good and very cohesive for the society. In reality, not so much. It’s not practical, it has many loopholes, it takes away individual genius. The same in a sense true for ‘feminism’. It is a loose simile, nonetheless, it produces somewhat comparable situations.
I have been following your comments up the thread. And while I also believe in equal treatment for men and women, – in work, promotion, wages, family, politics, economics, society etc. But I don’t identify myself as a feminist and never will.
Another thing I don’t purport to do is to convert anyone on this feminist friendly/ majority board to convert them to my way of thinking. The purpose here is not who can present the most rational or best argument, but to genuinely understand the other side or the other point of view. At least, I am genuinely trying. But I am also understanding it could be difficult for many here, as they believe that the being a feminist is not just best position or pov, but the only one. It is this staunch stand, which makes them say either you are feminist or you are the stupid person who doesn’t understand what you are talking about or worse, you’re woman-hater.
What many feminist doesn’t understand that there are several flaws with feminism, not with the broader concept of equal treatment, but in the minute nitty-gritties which play in everyday life-societal, cultural, practical, psychological, behavioral,- which take the sheen off the movement and expose it for something very different than what they purport themselves to be.
Communism is an economic theory which has been co-opted into a political system that is best labeled as totalitarianism. The very nature of totalitarianism is not one which supports free thought or individual expression, such as we’re all blissfully able to share on Celebitchy.
“i am curious, how many of you identify as communists? communism is the believe that all people are equal, of sharing and not ownership and promotes the absense of social classes.”
Having read Marx and Engels, I can tell you that you have given an overly simplistic definition of the communist ideology. I don’t identify as a “communist” in terms of the ideology, as they wrote it, because I did read their works and they contain much with which I cannot agree, far too much for an easy summation on a message board. Communism as it has existed as a form of government differs substantially from the Marx/Engels idealogy and I certainly would never embrace that form of “communism”. But Maria, what is all this but a deflection and diversion from the fact that you cannot support what you yourself are saying against feminism?
Oh, well, you know she’s very young and when I was that age I said/believed some really dumb things too. I say ask her again when she’s 35-40 and the primo roles are going to younger women and she’s getting passed on by, even ignored, by the very same people in the industry who are undoubtably telling her everything she wants to hear. Ask her this question in a few years, when she’s well out of the “honeymoon” phase of her youthful stardom…
Tell me why all these young, pretty starlets are being cornered in interviews and asked that question, when they are clearly too young and inexperienced to answer it? To me, that smacks of sexism. “Lets ask these young idoits about feminism and then watch them get trashed when they give thier stupid answers.”
its the good old gotcha journalism. like when they try to ask super complex questions at beauty contests. but as you can see here, the mob loves that. makes them feel superior.
Wow, you really are bitter. And blind to people trying to explain their beliefs to you in a respectful, patient manner in spite of your hostility and rudeness. No one here is acting like a mob. No one here is saying they are superior. Except you. Go forth and spew, Maria. I give up. Live your life as a non-anything.
Maria, with all due respect, you seriously need to reevaluate your views, even if you think you don’t.
Maria, have a Comet Sophie.
@GNAT you hit the nail on the head. I also get a good hint of self loathing
I knew what a feminist was when I was 12 and was quite happy to identify as such. She’s what, in her 20s ? We’re not asking her to explain the Big Bang or Finnegan’s Wake, she’s being asked about a political ideology that affects her directly, and that is in the news every day. Hell, she could just memorise the dictionary definitions given above and just say that, if need be. Or even go for ‘no comment’.
It’s probably common for girls/young women to not think about it too much, especially if they haven’t experienced or recognized gender bias yet. And certainly Shailene is leading a life in a happy bubble right now, but I agree that once she gets older, she might see things differently.
In high school I did an architecture and design summer program at a university, and during a chair building project, a professor told a few of the female students that we should just ask a male student for help building ours because they’d know how to do it (for the record the sturdiest and most creative design was by a female who did the whole thing herself). So I was aware early on of some attitudes, but then it took years to better understand all of the issues that feminism addresses – reproductive rights, equal pay, media representation, etc.
What would be nice is if some of these young celebrities would realize and admit as much – that they’re young and still learning and don’t have it all figured out yet, that they’d like to learn more, etc.
The problem is that not all of these actresses are young and green! Kaley Cuoco is 29, Katy Perry is 30, Evangeline Lilly is 35, Salma Hayek is 49. It’ s not just teenagers and women in their early 20s who are this dumb or lazy, it’ s grown up women as well!
It doesn’t matter what she thinks about feminism but it’s still annoying that as a lead in a big franchise, she has many young fans, who listen to her and read that feminism is not important. I just had a conversation about feminism with my dad, who used to work in a huge airplane construction corporation. He was dealing with finances and he told me that in other departments, women were doing the hardest physical job while men, who technically were supposed to do exactly the same things, had a way of not doing anything for half a day and still feel safe because they were earning at least 30 per cent more than their female co-workers. My dad was a very passionate trade union member and he tried to make some changes but he failed. My mom works in the same company but she deals with shipments and has to carry very heavy stuff and she is one of the victims of that system. She does most of the work, earns less than the lazy men around her (they know, they can be lazy without consequences) and when the company was letting go of some employees, she was the one in danger, not them. Even in Shailene’s profession, women make less but her wages are at least six figures long so those x-thousands won’t make a big change but for a “common woman” it’s a matter of making a living. She would know that it’s not the label that divides as, but rather the sad reality of how needed feminism still is, but she would have to come out of her bubble and maybe go couch-surfing outside of the rich, gated communities.
has Shainlene directly stated that she is in favour of what you write? no she hasnt. she just doesnt want that label. is that so hard to understand?
She reduced the whole equality idea to a “label”, which’s a huge display of ignorance. The label she so wants to avoid is against what Norma Bates’s Mother wrote down.
Thank you, Naddie. Feminism is not just a label. It’s a very important movement. My example is just a drop in the ocean of the gender inequality. She clearly doesn’t understand what it means but as opposed to other people, who have a freedom to be ignorant without consequences, she actually might cause some harm (she’s right that people care too much on what she says, but it’s true), as we live in a world where teenagers look up to their favorite celebrities more than the scholars and she is the current “It girl” in the teenage cinema. The change won’t ever be made if the future generations will stop fighting because in their minds, feminism is not important, not needed or it’s just a dated label. There’s Woodley, Katy Perry, Kaley Cuoco and countless other starlets who influence those young people. All it takes is to go on a popular site like 9gag to see what harm it’s already caused. I saw so many memes quoting Cuoco, Perry or Woodley to prove that “feminazis”, which is a word used to describe all feminists, not just those unnecessarily radical ones, are evil monsters. Teenagers think that feminism is embarrassing, passe, too outdated to be relevant and that’s why we need people like Emma Watson to change that view.
Actually, Maria, yes, she pretty much did
She’s spreading ignorant stereotypes, much like someone else I could name. Here’s the thing: when you quote unique phrases, accusations, tropes, etc., etc., it is then possible to identify your source.
Woodley’s source is her apparently well-sunned ass. Yours come from MRA websites.
Well said, NB’M!!! That’s precisely one of the best things about feminism, that it’s not dogmatic. In fact, it’s the opposite. Inside of it, you can be whatever and whoever you want to be. Talk about labels.
I wish we could post GIFs here, because Grumpy Cat saying ‘No!’ is totally appropriate to this situation. Just…no.
*facepalm*
–“I think the idea of ‘raise women to power, take the men away from the power’ is never going to work out because you need balance.”–
Girl, you just….it doesn’t mean…that is not what feminism……
Ahhh screw it…she STILL doesn’t know what the word means.
*headdesk*
*headdesk*
*headdesk*
Odd that she doesn’t object to the lack of “balance” we have right now with mostly white old men in charge.
I am a feminist which I consider to be a subsection of my humanism. But I am often dismayed at the angry, relentless stance other feminists take against women they feel don’t do the word justice. I don’t see how this helps us educate and encourage one another.
Well said.
I somewhat agree with you, but it’s quite enraging when she says that “feminist” is a word that discriminate… and it turns out that it’s the opposite. There are so much struggle and blood attached to feminism’s history, although I don’t think that lash out at her or anyone would make it better.
True
That’s exactly why we need to fight against that. Yes, the word has acquired a very bad reputation, but we have the power to revert that. And when I say “fight”, I’m not talking about agression. I’m talking about education. It’s one of the biggest weapons we have, so we might as well use it wisely.
Lucy2
I agree. I have learned so much from strong, enlightened feminists on this site and I am grateful. And those who make me feel ashamed have also taught me what kind of feminist not to be. I think we will all be in even better shape 10, 20, 30 years from now because of it.
…Gosh. Shai, I like you a lot but PLEASE, open your head and educate yourself.
I see now why Hansel Engort isn’t attracted to her. She’s been living in some hippie commune for so long and needs to be reintegrated to society.
She’s pretty much the definition of young, white Hollywood, eh? Completely uneducated and convinced that she knows better than everyone else.
YUP.
… and all of this could’ve been avoided if she simply googled the word “feminism”. Sigh.
“I mean, if we spent as much energy focusing on the genocide that’s going on right now in parts of Africa as we spent on that one article, think about what we could accomplish. Change is not going to come from focusing on the small things that actors say.”
Argh! Classic deflection. I’m rolling my eyes so hard I might give myself a headache. Girl please, it’s not a zero sum game. Why do people act like being passionate about one issue means that you’re taking attention away from other important issues. Newsflash, they’re all important issues and you can care about and support more than one cause at at time. Sigh. I’m so tired of these kinds of argument.
Totally agree with you! deflection isn’t the answer sis and I really need her to name these “parts of Africa” where genocide is happening, not dropping the first social issue she has in mind.
+so many 1’s
Really? Is acting her career?
She says, “Two years ago it was very easy for me to … tell the story of a 16-year-old, and now, I feel like … I just can’t empathize with it.”
Looks like she doesn’t understand the definition of acting either!
As we can see by this comment section the word feminism does cause division. I personally prefer the word egalitarian.
Egalitarian has a much broader meaning, tho. Feminism deals with gender in(equality) specificly. If you say “gender egalitarian” or something like that, then you’re back at feminism.
No you are not. The term “gender egalitarian” is more equal than the term “feminism”. Many people such as Shailene and some who have commented would prefer “gender egalitarian” over “feminist”.
Feminism is gender egalitarian, but if they (= “Shailene and some” as you put it) understood that, they would perhaps advocate for the name change (something I wouldn’t agree with, but I’d see where they’re coming from). She does not do that. Instead Shailene here is describing straw feminism. I don’t doubt her heart is in the right place, but she is still using terms she doesn’t understand. Repeatedly.
BTW, I know the rhetoric because I used to be like her in my teens. Then I actually talked to actual feminists and realised they actually fight for men’s rights too. Actively.
That happens mostly because of the ignorance surrounding the term.
It causes division because some people simply don’t understand what the word means. Feminist is that who believes in the political, social and economic equality of the sexes. Simple as that. How we achieve that? Now that’s where people can get more confrontational. But saying you’re not a feminist is saying you don’t believe in gender equality. And this isn’t my take on the matter – it’s just a logical analysis of semantics.
That’s the problem Josefa. Somewhere along the line someone decided to change the definition to what you just mentioned. There are currently two definitions of feminism. A) the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities. and B) The advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men. See to me saying you are not a feminist is equivalent to saying you don’t support women’s rights. Nothing to do with male rights. Because it is possible to support women’s rights but not men’s rights. To say you are not a gender egalitarian is to say you don’t support gender equality. Gender egalitarian focuses on all issues both male and female.
How sad that the very people that feminism has helped the most, are the ones who insist on deprecating it, and the brave women and men who worked so hard to get us where we are now. I have been a feminist since I started reading the newspaper, which was around age 11. Being a vocal feminist never prevented me from having lots of male friends and boyfriends; from being a model, a job which focused on my looks, from being a wife and mother (even a homeschool mom to our youngest). Instead it has broadened my world and made it an infinitely better place for me to live and grow, and raise my family. There are a million more choices and opportunities for me than for my grandmother, mother and aunt thanks to feminism. I am treated as a full partner in my little world, and make decisions, and spend money, and have the opinions I want; instead of just being a second-rate citizen, one who cooks and cleans and raises kids and lives on the money her husband gives her. Btw, the older women in my family LOVE feminism, and wish they had done more to help bring it about.
I have cut Shailene a lot of slack in the past because she’s young and obviously very immature, but I find it hard to believe that at this point, when she has created so much drama, that she does not know what feminism means. Her “labels” harangue is bs, and in the long run is not going to make her more likable in the movie business or anything else. How tiresome of Shailene to keep harping publicly about this issue, protesting as it were, that she is not a feminist, when she would be so much better off if she would take the time to educate herself on feminism. Instead, Shailene and her ilk continue to be part of the problem.
Your comment is filled with such pleasant (sarcastic) ironies, that I being a ‘non-feminist’ here feel compelled to point them out as one of the few reasons why I will never be a feminist, even a self-contradicting feminist like you. Professions like modelling and labels like wife, mother, homemaker, have long been frowned upon by feminists as they believe it discredits everything they have worked for. If you haven’t faced such criticism from them then you are among the lucky few.
And to your comment – ‘I am treated as a full partner in my little world, …..instead of just being a second-rate citizen, one who cooks and cleans and raises kids and lives on the money her husband gives her. ‘ I have read many stereotypical feminist viewpoints like these one- that the person who cooks and cleans and raise kids is a ‘second-grade citizen’. SMH. The world needs more emancipated women, but it also needs good mothers, wifes, daughters’; nothing wrong in being both or any single one of them.
Except no regular commenter here would say that. All the ardent feminists here applaud women having CHOICE. It’s a shame you haven’t seen it, it’s even spoken about in other very recent threads. Maybe you just don’t want to see it?
@Dee, until fairly recently, the person who cooked, cleaned, raised the kids, and lived on the money her husband gave her WAS a second class citizen with no right to vote, no right to own real estate, no right to survivor’s benefits of her husband’s pension unless he deigned to give such rights to her – and many, many did not, no right to pass on her US citizenship to her child if she gave birth to it elsewhere (a right her husband had) and no right to credit in her own right. Feminism changed that.
Thank you Lilacflowers and Ange, you are so right. Incidentally Dee, while I loved the years I spent raising my youngest, and disabled son, I also enjoy my career in the music industry doing session and occasionally stage work (I play several instruments), I’ve worked in the movie industry as an assistant to a powerful woman producer, was on a tv show when I was a kid, and a couple of other jobs that I worked at for several years that were very interesting. btw, I have been a regular commenter and writer for a feminist blog for about 12 years, all of the regulars there know all about me and have never had any criticism from any of them. Most of them are boomers, and about half of them have families. They are happy to have me and my little family as part of theirs. I have been commenting here at Celebitchy since my youngest was 16 (hence the jane16), and he is going to be 21 next month! I may have had disagreements with other posters here over the years, but always about celeb stuff, none of the feminists here have ever been the least bit snooty to me when I mention my family or homeschool years . Actually, besides helping my kid go through the regular Calif curriculum (he was schooled through Laurel Springs), and teaching him music, I also produced community theater plays, including some Shakespeare, among other community activities like working at a food bank. I’m glad you find my story “pleasant”, am puzzled as to the “ironic” part. Thanks to the feminist movement, I have been able to have variety in my life. Now I did not earn wages equal to men, and there is still a lot of work to be done for the cause of gender equality. I am hoping to live to see a woman president, for instance. But I will always be grateful for the feminist movement. I will always identity as a feminist, and I raised our sons to be feminists and trained my Italian husband to be one.
“The reason why I don’t like to say that I am a feminist or I am not a feminist is because to me it’s still a label.”
How can she be so stupid….so Shailene, all the women who went before you into the trenches of equality warfare so you could VOTE, WORK, GET AN EDUCATION, HAVE REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS were merely labeling something?
If, as you say, it’s just a label and we should all just sit around the giant table of life holding hands and singing Kumbaya, consider this….
1. On August 19, 1920, women finally got the vote.
2. In 1938 women were finally allowed to use birth control
3. Women weren’t allowed into the workforce or colleges until the late 1800’s
I could go on and on. Do you see how far women have come in a relatively short time period with their drive and focus to be considered EQUAL? So with one single word – LABEL – you have demeaned and belittled the arduous work that many thousands of women went through to get YOU to where you are today.
You’re a smug, inarticulate and uneducated young woman who should spend some time educating yourself instead of flapping your gums and making such utterly fatuous remarks.
Until the mid 1990s, there were no ladies rooms for women in the US Senate. Be they staffers or Senators or visitors, they had to go elsewhere to pee.
Wow. *SIGH*… still a ways to go isn’t there….but when you look at what horrors women in other parts of the world are still going through – India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, the Middle East, etc. – I have to shake my head at Shailene’s awesome stupidity and insularity.
Thank you Jaded! I think many women these days who refuse to identify as feminists are totally ignorant to the past and present struggles of women; they take it for granted that they have the rights that they do. To them their choices and opportunities are a given. American women haven’t even had the right to vote for a hundred years ffs!
Shailene needs to pull her head out of her privileged sun-glazed a** and read a book (or ten).
The right to vote for less than a hundred years, the legal right not be denied a bank account, credit card or mortgage in your own name without needing a male co-signer has been around much less than that in the US. The Equal Credit Opportunity Act was ratified AFTER I was born. That blows my mind – I can’t fathom not having the ability to buy my own car or open my own checking account, and the thought of women in my mother’s generation being denied that because of their gender rather than their credit score lit the feminist fire within me.
Feminism is not a dirty word, but those that have resisted the goals it represents have tried to make it one. The term suffragette had the same (very) negative connotation, but who can argue with the goals of that movement today?
If I set up a club for people who were ambidextrous (in case you’re unaware – it means you don’t favour being left or right handed, but are equally adept at both) and called it the ‘Leftism’ club, and went around saying something like ‘Leftism = AMBIDEXTERITY…’ you’d absolutely have to forgive people for either:
A.) Being confused that a club about being able to use both hands equally had a title that so clearly favoured the use of one hand over another.
B.) Being suspicious that ambidexterity wasn’t really the purpose or intent of the club in spite of its claims, because at a very basic level – namely what the club is actually called – the suggestion is that it is only interested in one hand over the other.
If a member of the club then came up to me and wanted to openly discuss changing its name to something to better reflect what the club was about, and I furiously refuted their points as being bigotted against left-handed people, is it any surprise that people start to err on the side of thinking that assumption B.) might be true?
The prefix of a word is important, like Capitalism meaning ‘to do with capital’ (looking at it in a very shallow way) and so on and so on. Denying this is either pointessly misleading at best, or outright disingenuous at worst.
Feminism is clearly in favor of women’s rights so why don’t we stop with the feminism=equality for both men and women bs.
There was an actual time when left-handed was considered bad and if left-handed people then fought for their rights to be treated as equals to right-handed people and called the movement leftist, I would honestly see no problem in keeping the term (although as it stands right now, “leftist” has a completely different meaning and is therefore a bad analogy).
The thing is: left- and right-handed people are equal now (at least I don’t know any problems and my family is full of left-handed people (I am not), who in my father’s times were still being reeducated to use the right hand). Women and men are not equal yet. Sometimes women have it the hard way, sometimes men. But the first person who ever told me about the problems of men in courts and in certain “female sphere” jobs was a feminist. EL GASP! All masculine men were the ones arguing men shouldn’t be doing “women’s jobs”, not feminists. And masculine men were arguing here that women should get the kids because it’s the mother’s job to take care of the kids. So it was not feminists who were the big enemies of men. So excuse me if I don’t take the term so negatively just because it has a historical meaning.
Feminism is in favor of women’s rights as opposed to women having no rights at all or limited rights; so why don’t we stop with pretending that it means stripping rights from others, hatred of men, or a quest for world domination?
I think the stripping rights from others, hatred of men, or a quest for world domination views have more to do with the actions of so-called feminists.
Examples, please? Start with suffrage. Please explain how women having the right to vote stripped any man of power. Then move on to how the right to have credit in her own name will lead to world domination?
No am not saying there is anything wrong with the idea, i’m that the actions some people have taken in the name of feminism has resulted in the views you mentioned.
@Iain: Feminism, or being a feminist, means that women have the same opportunities as men to work, get an education, and vote. Add to that reproductive rights, birth control and a legal means of fighting sexual harassment, all things that they used to be completely powerless to access.
I think your tin foil hat is picking up signals from some other planet where men are held in total subjugation.
There is nothing wrong with your definition of feminism. I support that definition. What i don’t support is the idea that feminism is about the equality of both genders. It’s not. It’s okay to simply focus on women issues. But if you are going to focus on both genders i believe the name should be changed into something more equal like “gender egalitarian”.
The thing is feminism CAN improve things for both genders if it can achieve its aims. Men also struggle under rigid gender roles and ideas of ‘masculinity’ which feminism is trying to move past.
I understand what many of you are saying but it seems that many of you are not willing to admit the name is the cause of the problem. The term feminism currently has two definitions. And just a like movement that states that Leftism = AMBIDEXTERITY doesn’t make sense, a movement that states feminism= equality for both genders doesn’t make sense either. Feminism will always be more in favor of female rights over male rights. And like said that is okay just like its okay for a movement like MRA to support and focus on only male rights. As long as people keep using both definitions of feminism there will be division.
I’d like to hear how this woman would explain her being a female actor. It wasn’t all that long ago that men played the women’s parts.
How, exactly, did the change come about?
Shakespeare fell in love with Gwyneth Paltrow.
We’re having constructive, meaningful debates on feminism in Africa, too, Shailene. Despite ALL the genocide around us. *eyeroll*
Also, and I speak for myself as an African, this “I can’t think about this pertinent issue in my country because I’m too busy thinking about poor, horrible Africa” BS to stop. 1. With your kind of reasoning, Shailene, I doubt you’ll be of much assistance to us. 2. Can you get another continent to reference when you mention genocide??? I promise, we don’t have a monopoly on it. Psssssh.
LOL!! Thanks for pointing out how condescending her comments are.
Yes, if it’s so much more important to focus on the genocide going on in “some parts of Africa,” it might help to, you know, be specific about the locations and details of said genocides. Oh wait, what? You don’t really know anything about Africa and you’re just saying that because you heard George Clooney talking about Sudan once? Yeah, that’s what I thought. I don’t know why the obligatory “I have deep concerns about real issues” celebrity talking point is always Africa, either. Hey, I heard there’s this whole war crimes/ethnic cleansing terrorist thing going on in Iraq and Syria, guys. Maybe you should read up on that.
I dont like to define myself as a feminist either. I think the word is divisive. I’m equal.
I think “what it means to be a feminist” is really up in the air these days.
No, it is not. It is a basic operational concept that hasn’t changed in pretty much a century.
Accept the fact that women and men are different because they are. Expect to be treated as equal. Personally I think women are the worst when it comes to equality. All one has to do is read some of the comments above. They’re ripping this girl to shreds because of her opinion which is her right to have. I get what she’s saying. Balance is key to everything. That’s what it’s all about. When things are out of sync problems arise.
I have to count to 20 before replying to you. I would very much like to know the names of the female senators who represent your state (if American), or representatives at large; how many women are in the local boards of decision making in your region, how many female principals or chief of police are you acquainted with, in general please let me know if there’s a balanced 50/50 sharing of power there.
‘Cause i love balance.
And where does this expectation come that you you’re going to get a pat on the head no matter how ridiculous your opinions are?
By all means, as soon as you’ll realize that you get paid 3/4 or less from what your male professional counterparts earn, or you’ll be passed from promotions, or be regarded as the natural primary caregiver of your children, you’ll have the peace of mind of not being divisive.
You fundamentally ignore that feminism is all about unity, not division.
You sound very immature and angry. I’m most likely much older than you. I’ve been a business owner and an employee. I know exactly what I’m talking about. I’m not American! I have been the primary caregiver of my children and received promotions. Based on your comments and reaction it’s women like you that give feminism a bad rap. You already think you’re unworthy and so you will be. The premier of my province is a woman. You should have counted to twenty. And balance is key! Your comment was insulting to me.
Unfortunately there’s women who think they’re unworthy, but I’m most certainly not one.
And you haven’t addressed one single issue from the ones I asked. But you call me names instead. Huh! You try to personalize an argument. It’s very nice that you achieved all the things you say, but is it, in your head, the case that those women who still get paid less, or don’t make half of parliaments’ seats think of themselves as unworthy, so they create that reality? Are they feminist whiners?
I loath misogynist women.
I didn’t call you any names. I told you I wasnt American. There doesn’t have to be equal amounts of women and men to have equality. I dont think all women look out for women by the way. The premier of my province is a woman. The mayor of my city is a woman. You dont get anywhere by coming out swinging with insults and being angry at someone who doesnt think the way you do. I go back to my point that acceptance of differences is key. Working within those differences is the way to equality and balance. Do you not agree that a man is wired differently than a woman? You cant change that. That doesnt mean you’re not equal. You are. But in different ways. Keep up with your attitude and you wont get ahead or ever be considered unified in any stretch of the imagination. Just an angry woman! A word of advice “open your mind” and dont react so angrily. It limits your potential for success. How about thinking of yourself as a winner versus a feminist? Huh!
“There doesn’t have to be equal amounts of women and men to have equality.”
Are you trolling yourself? (note that I wasn’t swinging insults, unlike you) Or want to explain your point?
And spare me the life advice, seriously, again note that i haven’t engaged in any sort of internet dick measuring. I’m hardly young or unaccomplished.
And trolling extraordinaire: juxtaposing success and feminism! My feminist husband, who, minus genitalia and muscular mass, is in no way “wired” (care to explain this mystical difference also?) differently than me, would laugh in your face.
Wow! Have a nice day.
I’m confused too, Daze. There’s inequality between genders. Are you saying its because women don’t see themselves as winners?
There’s inequality between genders. I just dont think going around declaring yourself a feminist is going to get you anywhere. Frothing at the mouth like distended above isnt either. There are different ways of dealing with it. Open dialogue without losing your shit is a start. People in general are more receptive when not made to feel defensive.
But people who believe in equality do not have to be convinced and I doubt that misogynists would be receptive to polite activists anyway. I’m a feminist. If a handful of backward individuals are going to be put off by that, more chaff from the wheat. Sorry, but I’m starting to wonder about how hostile the environment you’re living in could be if the word feminist is problematic.
garciathes, are you comprehending what I wrote? I believe in the cause just not the use of the word to describe it. Why is that a problem for anyone? And no my environment is far from hostile if you read what I said.
She should definitely take time off…to get an education. It would be a shame to go through life that uninformed and dumb.
It is profoundly idiotic to proclaim yourself anti-feminist while enjoying the fruits of feminism. You know, this lovely career you enjoy, reading & writing, owning your own property and stuff. Little things like that. She makes me squirm. Sometimes I think it is better for actors to keep quiet about their personal opinions because it bleeds over into their public careers. I can’t watch a movie she is in and never will.
Oh Shailene. You and your smelly pits need to take a seat.
Ew why does she look like she’s sporting a mullet. I still stand by my belief that she has a punchable face.
I can’t with her anymore. Seriously. I will not be clicking on one more story. If you discuss something in 3 different interviews, yet you STILL refuse to educate yourself on exactly what that something actually is, you don’t get the benefit of having me in your audience.
Reading or listening to Shailene is to make my self vulnerable to her stubborn ignorance. I refuse.
I’m with you. This is my last Shailene thread. Like spitting into the wind. I’m done with her buffoonery.
I thank and look up to all those who came before. Who paved the way for me to get an education, be able to vote, be able to become a doctor, be able to make my own choices. And those who came before were the suffragettes and the feminists. Make no mistake. We are where we are now because of feminism. And there is still such a long way to go.
hear, hear!
I know teenagers can be vapid, but this is another level altogether.
Still, she’ll grow out of it. They all do.
Oh, to be young and to know all.
This may be snarky (snark is fun) but as a 50 year old woman, I get the biggest kick out of young women talking about “feminism”. Now I know how Camille Paglia feels.
Dummy. Male or female, if you don’t identify as a feminist, you are saying that men are superior to women and women don’t deserve equal rights. PERIOD. Doesn’t mean you hate men, doesn’t mean you’re a lesbian, it means you support equal rights. This woman is a complete dummy with her head in the clouds and her head up her butt.
Its so sad, how these “celebrities” are given a platform to speak up , because ppl will listen to them are actually not that bright. Its seems that more female celebrities are coming out as not believing in feminism, then coming out saying that they believe in equality. that quote what was it” stop making stupid people famous”