Judd Apatow views himself as a truth-teller and progressive advocate in real life and online. I don’t know when “Judd Apatow gets political and feminist on Twitter” started happening, but it feels like it was several years back, when Apatow began tweeting a lot about Bill Cosby. I don’t think Apatow is the worst person or the biggest hack in the world, to be clear – but I also don’t think he’s as much of a feminist ally as he thinks he is, if that makes sense. Like, feminism to him is Amy Schumer telling sex jokes or Lena Dunham getting naked on Girls. I don’t know how to properly state my general sense of meh-ness here, so just trust me when I say that I generally feel ambivalent towards him.
So, Apatow decided to offer up his take on Woody Allen’s new movie, and how Elle Fanning’s character might be playing a 15-year-old having an affair/being molested by Jude Law’s character. He tweeted a link to one of the stories:
Report: Woody Allen’s New Film Includes a Sexual Relationship Between an Adult and a 15-Year-Old Girl https://t.co/hPs6fH7egC pic.twitter.com/3mhvgV60i0
— IndieWire (@IndieWire) October 23, 2017
Then he tweeted this:
It is sad that he is obsessed with all these young actresses and none of them run when offered the job. https://t.co/F7LUUmNaHE
— Judd Apatow (@JuddApatow) October 25, 2017
God, this is a sh-tty take. I judge actresses for working with Woody Allen at this point too, especially when it’s Kate Winslet and she’s being an a–hole. But it’s like the Harvey Weinstein thing – you are putting the onus on women (and potential victims or actual victims) to change or regulate predatory male behavior. Woody Allen’s problems are not Kate Winslet’s fault. Woody Allen’s problems don’t rest on Elle Fanning’s shoulders. Would I hope that these bright actresses (of all ages) would refuse to work with Woody? Sure. Just as I would hope the ACTORS would as well. I predicted this months ago: people will act like Kate Winslet is solely responsible for choosing to work with Woody. When his next movie comes out, it will be Elle Fanning and Selena Gomez and Rebecca Hall who have to answer those questions. But what about Jude Law, Justin Timberlake, Colin Firth, Joaquin Phoenix and all of the men who chose to work with him? Why doesn’t anyone wonder why Timberlake didn’t “run” when he was offered the job? Why didn’t Jude Law “run”?
Photos courtesy of WENN.
Yes, especially as Jude Law is playing the character that has the inappropriate relationship with a 15 year old. Why Jude?
Yes 100+ to the Jude Law question. I can see why actors have worked with Woody in the past–the potential (for Kate and Cate) of a meaningful role for a woman, the fact that he works fast, that a few of his movies are actually good while others fly under the radar–all that has probably made it seem plausible in the past.
But the Jude Law role, even before the Weinstein story blew up, was already dicey and embarrassingly repetitive of Woody’s frequent theme. It will be interesting to see, post-Weinstein, if he can get a new group of actors to sign on.
I think because we all know Elle is his “type” (ugh that was gross just typing it) whereas Jude is not. It’s an awful take but I get the line of thinking.
I would make the comparison of guys running from Singer who has been sued for assulting men in the industry.
Still it’s pressuring victims but I get the thinking.
He should not have taken this role. Jude already has a shady sexual history to me; Sienna Miller, the chick he got pregnant that he wasn’t even dating. He doesn’t need the leacherous old man added to the mix.
Movie Actors don’t work with directors for years just months. I have worked with shady people for years because I needed a job. I am sure that actors choose to work with Allen because they believe that their work with him will generate other roles.
As a boss, Allen might be fine as a husband/father/boyfriend he is apparently the WORST
woody Allen cast actresses who are in need of validation in their careers. look at all his movie credits! when drew barrymore needed a “serious acrtress” cred? Bam! woody Allen movie. Blake lively! bam movie! Fanning put oit a bunch of movies last year and they were all crap. Bam! woody Allen movie! you’re a serious actress that should be taken seriously. it’s a pattern I’ve laughed at for a long time. and it goes triple for Selena Gomez. girl tried and tried to be taken serious as an actress after WOWP, but her projects were laughable. her only decent role was the small bit character with James Franco. bam! Allen movie will make you a serious actress!
Your theory doesn’t apply to all the women in his movies: Cate Blanchett, Dianne Wiest, Penelope Cruz, Scarlett Johansson…
I just assumed he was casting those women because he could no longer find genuinely talented people willing to work with him.
Blake Lively, Justin Timberlake, Selena Gomez, Miley Cyrus, Kelly Rohrbach, Suki Waterhouse? The Woody Allen brand is lower than it’s ever been.
Kate Winslet’s career isn’t exactly what it used to be. The Dressmaker, The Divergent movies, Steve Jobs, Collateral Beauty…blech.
He’s mostly filling his movies with untalented celebrities desperate to be in a prestige project. His last decent movie was Blue Jasmine. I think Dylan’s op-ed has seriously hurt his ability to attract high-caliber talent.
Because Apatow sees Woody as a women’s problem.
“Hey ladies, there’s this giant dangerous pothole here, only affects you though, so maybe take another road, my taxes are going elsewhere.“
Men. Always finding a way to blame the women, no matter how egregious.
Back to what I was saying about Matt Damon yesterday: liberal men are the worst. Because they’re sneaky about their misogyny.
Its funny, because most liberal women know we need to fix some sh*t. Our insectionalism needs work, our trans rights need work, we need to nip some latent misogyny, whatever.
It seems many liberal men are like I AM LE WOKE. SEE MY WOKENESS. and then say something incredibly dumb and get salty because they get called out.
I think its because they’ve removed most of the obvious signs, so instead of active typhoid infection they are just Marying the place up. (i’m practicing my bad metaphors today, bear with me)
That is the sad truth!
I call it A MAN HAS ARRIVED (to educate us with his manly wrongness)!
Sorry, but this is such bull. One can be critical of Apatow’s take here without being “he’s canceled! All liberal men are bad!” This site is the worst for policing every minor infraction.
Yup. They’re also emotionally fragile AF. The BF and I were talking about problematic men last night and he got angry with me and pulled the #notallmen BS out. This is a man who is woke, too, but he’s not woke enough to handle criticism of his gender.
And it’s because he’s a privileged white dude who has never faced any real adversity or pushback, never really been challenged on his opinions. Women are used to getting shit thrown at us, we’re used to being disbelieved or patronized/condescended to and we are used to having to fight to be heard.
But every man I’ve ever met takes this for granted, even the most woke, liberal dudes. It’s like they expect to be a part of the movement without having to do any of the hard work; without having to educate or police their brethren.
EOA – nobody is saying every single liberal man is bad. I, personally, am saying that I feel that misogyny from a liberal man is worse than from a conservative man (to use the American terms) because the conservative man is honest about it while the liberal man is not. Gaslighting 101.
The worst?
you must not get online much.
(just a word- be careful with absolutes. It usually backfires on you, at the worst possible moments. Like now, for example)
A MAN HAS ARRIVED. “she pauses” I do enjoy that, thoroughly.
EOA, I’m not cancelling him, I’m criticizing him for problematic language/wording. And commiserating/joking with other people who notice the same trends. What in particular has you so frustrated?
kitten, dear lord, i understand that feel and you desribed that fragility perfectly. When discussing the #metoo movement, in a very emotional moment for me, my partner dropped ‘but I’ve never done anything like that’ with sadface and doe eyes. I auto placated. No baby, you haven’t. In the middle of discussing my own history of violence.
Archie – “worst” as in “most annoying to me” is what I mean!
@EOA- Liberal men sometimes use their liberalism for moral cover. You might not have any experience with that, but many of us do. That doesn’t mean that we are “cancelling” all liberal men, it means that as women we need to be cognizant of that. Honestly, I don’t understand why you seem so offended by that.
@Detritus- OMG the auto-placating! Gah. I do it all the time, but I can imagine how particularly frustrating it would be in the midst of a conversation that emotional and intimate. Sigh. They always need reassurance and most of the time I don’t mind giving it but lately..lately it’s been harder for me to put men’s feelings ahead of my own.
Kitten, Deets,
I really appreciate this discussion. You both articulated something that I feel, a lot, but didn’t quite have the words to express. ITA that as women, we are usually more compassionate an open-minded about these things because we’re used to getting sh!t thrown at us all day, every day. Those of us who date straight, white dudes know that they don’t have that inherent understanding, because they have spent their entire lives at the top of the food chain.
My BF will at least acknowledge it, that he won the lottery as far as his straight white maleness, but I still have to call him out constantly for some of the bullsh!t he says. When the #metoo stuff first starting happening, I told him about an experience I had with a police officer when I was a teenager. I ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time, and this on-duty male officer pulled me to the side, away from the group, to ask me questions. He started by telling me “I don’t need to search you because your clothes are tight enough.” I told my boyfriend how f*cked up it was for an officer to make sexually-charged comments to a teenager in a situation where he had all the power. And BF said “See, I don’t understand that. What do you mean he had all the power?” And I had to explain to him that I was phsyically worried for my safety. How this man could have easily overpowered me, how he was literally an officer on duty compared to a tiny teenage girl. He had a gun, ffs, and he was commenting on my body.
None of that even crossed BFs mind, because men don’t have to walk around worried about being raped every second of the day. I had to explain to him, like Sixer said, what it’s like to walk around as prey. The things we do for love, amirite??
Not you Sixer!
That EOA poster.
Sorry for the confusion!
LOL! No worries!
Shamby, of course! Its good to hear other women are experiencing the same thing.
@ Shambles- ITA and I bet that conversation would have gone quite differently was your BF a black man. I would have been terrified had I been in your shoes, utterly terrified.
Reminds me of the SNL skit: https://youtu.be/kTMow_7H47Q
And sorry Shamby, I deleted the original first part of my message, which was that I was molested by a police officer, not in North America, but still. I couldn’t get it to sound less angry yesterday, but yeah, there’s a reason you were scared and upset, you were totally justified, and it’s because bad things can happen.
Judd’s always seemed like a pretty fake feminist to me. It’s this kinda stuff.
“Hey I’m going to do something I see as a good thing – sh*tting on Woody Allen – by doing it my own way – being an ass to young actresses who don’t necessarily have the option to look at 100 other scripts!”
Thats it! He’s picked the least experienced, most naive, and least powerful people in the situation to ask ‘why you do that’?
There are grownups with decades of experience in Hollywood supporting Allen, but Apatow wants Elle Fanning and Selena Gomez to take a stand, because they should know better?
Tbh, I always thought Apatow used to be a practitioner (in some of his outputs’ scripts/setups/ideas at least) of so called ironic or hipster sexism.
Just like ironic/hipster racism is still racism, so it goes with sexism an all the other -isms that cool dudes try to get away with by delivering with a knowing wink. It’s not a benign or an enlightened form of sexism. It’s just the same old sh*t repackaged.
Yup. Tnx Kaiser for being objective. Its hard but actresses cannot put him in jail.
Truth. And they can’t keep him from finding another sweet young thing either.
Question: Does he finance his own movies? Apatow should be asking the production company and financers (if they exist, I’m not googling Allen this early in the morning)
If they turn down offers that are supposed to be good for their career, their agent and agency will probably label them as difficult. My guess there are a lot of predators that everyone works with who aren’t as well known as Woody or Harvey so how does the actress refuse to participate without fear of reprisal?
This is an article in the Guardian from a Brit actress who tried to have a career in Hollywood – and gave up because of the pervasive, systematic predatory behaviour that agents know all about and have been supporting for years. I hope you can see this where you are, it explains a lot,
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/oct/13/harvey-weinstein-alleged-behaviour-is-the-accepted-way-in-la
That was a really interesting article. Hollywood is more violently misogynist than the British industry because the British industry is too busy still being obsessed with class.
Oh, just SIGH at EVERYTHING.
Yep.
Very very true.
I will say this for him: he was one of the first in Hollywood to speak up against Weinstein. When most of Hollywood was completely silent Apatow, Seth Rogen and Mark Ruffalo spoke out alongside the wonderful Brie Larson, Jessica Chastain, America Ferrera and Lena Dunham (plus a couple of other ladies who are slipping my mind right now).
He isn’t wrong he’s just an asshole.
I kind of feel the same way. It comes oit wrong but he is not wrong. The reactions of men to HW thing actually show how clueless they are and like it or not unfortunatelly women get the unporoportionally big part of responsibility of leading the chane and educating men on the issues of gender ballance, sexual assault and sexuality. And lead by example. It’s not fair because women have much less power (just compare Jude to Elle in this case) but unfortunalelly I came to think that this is the reality
Yeah, that’s where I’m at. I know that Twitter tends to be somewhat off the cuff kind of comments with a limited amount of characters. He should have said “why don’t people run” not “actresses” because it’s not just limited to women. There are plenty of men who have no problem working with him – and that should be just as troubling.
Here’s the one thing I don’t really get – because I’ve never watched a WA film. Does he choose many unknown actresses? Or does he tend to go for bigger names/more well known women? Because I think there’s a difference between someone starting out in their field and being afraid to turn down roles choosing to work with him (still not great, but more understandable) and someone who is at a point in their career where they can turn down scripts that they don’t like without much fear. In a perfect world nobody would work with him – but I definitely see where someone with less of a career would fear turning down one of his movies.
Someone like Jude Law though – I really don’t understand why he’d willingly work with him. He’s had a pretty consistent load of work – he surely doesn’t NEED this movie. Ellen Page worked with him in 2012- she didn’t have that kind of career stability. She’s a decent actress – and I adore her – but she’s not someone who books blockbusters usually. It’s more often that she has smaller, more indie type roles. Selena Gomez shouldn’t NEED Woody Allen. Elle Fanning I wouldn’t have thought would NEED Woody Allen – she’s been famous since she was a kid. Steve Carrell and Jesse Eisenburg shouldn’t NEED Woody Allen. It’s just so bizarre to me that people with established careers are willing to work with him. It’s bizarre that anyone wants to work with him – but I understand why those without that kind of clout would consider it more.
Overall, it’s just sad all around. I appreciate that Judd was an early supporter of the women assaulted by HW – but this was a dickish move. Unfortunately there’s no “perfect victim” – and there’s no “perfect allies” either. It’s important that people call others out when they do shitty things just like it’s important that we support and encourage those who are doing something brave and ‘right’.
That’s my issue with all these actors actually. We’re not asking why unkown actors choose to work with him, we’re asking why proper movie stars and established actors who do NOT need these jobs still work with him. Big names turn down roles all the time, this would not impact their careers. As if Justin Timberlake needs a WA movie. Not even Elle Fanning needs a WA movie and Colin Firth sure as hell doesn’t. They have all the options, they have choices. This is a choice they make and it provides a shield for people like him. All these big names work with him so he must either be a genius (he’s really not) or innocent. This is ridiculous.
As for why we specifically ask the women? Well, I can only speak for myself but as a woman, I expect other women to understand and empathize more than men. That’s just the way it is. If anything these past weeks have proven that the vast majority of women knows what it’s like to be treated like sh*t because of your sex/gender. So while on paper men know, women KNOW. I expect more from people who know. That does not mean I have a higher opinion of the men working with him or Polanski, I do not. But I understand it less when women choose to support a guy like that.
“As for why we specifically ask the women?”
I can understand why women would ask other women this question. I think it’s somewhat irritating when a man asks it though, like he’s mansplaining or something.
Very much agree.
“Unfortunately there’s no “perfect victim” – and there’s no “perfect allies” either. It’s important that people call others out when they do shitty things just like it’s important that we support and encourage those who are doing something brave and ‘right’. ”
Perfectly said.
@perplexed: Okay, yes, that’s true.
Yeah, I get what he’s saying, I’m just annoyed at the privilege behind it. It’s easy to say “women should be running” when you don’t have to live in a world where you encounter sexism and harassment on a regular basis, which normalizes it as part of something you have to endure to succeed.
God, he’s a twat. Total, utter twat. That is all.
I will never forget that the reason he hired Emma Stone for Superbad is because he wanted someone who wasn’t “conventionally attractive” to match with Jonah Hill. This guy looked at Emma Stone and thought, “nah not that hot” and then looked at Jonah Hill and said “same league!”
Basically, screw Apatow.
they are responsible for choosing to work with woody, aren’t they? they know what he’s done to other women and instead of taking a stand or supporting their gender, they ignore it. sure, men who work with them should be accountable too, but as WOMEN we have more of a responsibility to stand up and say, no, we won’t be treated poorly and i will not support this. if we can’t, why expect men to?
The men are equally accountable. Why should the onus be completely on the women to bear the consequences? Their careers will suffer alone but the guys get to skate because why? The message would be much stronger with both. This smacks awfully close to respectability politics.
It also reminds me of why the NFL protests irk me. Why won’t the white players take a stand? Why is solely up to the black players to destroy their career? Do you realize what could happen if it transcended racial boundaries? We need accomplices not allies (I forget where I heard that first, but I’m stealing it nonetheless).
it’s not completely on the women to bear the consequences but if we’re adverse to leading the change for women ourselves then what’s the point? why do we need to stand by and wait for men to join us before we take a stand? if enough actresses spoke out about this it wouldn’t be ignored, that’s been proven recently. women are afraid, understandably, but change will never happen if actresses stand around and wait for support from men in the industry. put it in their faces, the horrible truth, and make them address it.
I agree that women (and men) should not work with him. It only validates him and his behaviors. If you’ve watched his movies over the years, you would see for yourself the consistent theme. So anyone who chooses to take part in these films – and it is a choice – is saying it’s ok, I want this role so I’ll put up with his shit and look the other way. Isn’t this the root of the problem??? Don’t blame women BUT women need to take responsibility!
I agree with you all. At the end of the day these actresses are supporting a known perv just as the men are. I like the sentiment ‘Why should we wait for men?’ I’m a little confused because people here were going on about hollywood being complicit but that mood seems to have changed here. If you all believe men should run from these roles why shouldn’t women? I feel like sometimes we get too caught up in being a victim to really cchange anything. I see more complaining about men on here than I do about women being strong. Women don’t get enough credit for their ability to cause change. If all the actresses boycotted these creeps they could really make an impact. And what about self preservation? I don’t walk around in dark alleys late at night drunk and alone because I know how vulnerable I would be. I want to take steps to protect myself and not put myself in bad situations because there are a lot of dangerous people out there.
YESSS thank you Kaiser! Such words of wisdom re onus on women.
Women who work with predators get more approbation than men do for actually being predators. Women are held accountable for men’s actions, far more than the men themselves are.
Not only do female actors get it worse than male, I’ve literally not read a single word calling out the MEN who greenlight and finance Allen and Polanski’s movies.
^This times a million.
Excellent point Meggles. Anyone who chooses to work with these predators needs to be held accountable.
I can’t stand Judd. I don’t think he’s a feminist at all. Eff you judd. Stop talking.
He’s not wrong, but why is it always about the actresses, not the actors.
I assume he had words with his friend Steve Carrell when he did an Allen film recently?
I don’t like Judd Apatow or his brand of humor but why is it a shitty take? Unlike Weistein’s case in which women were under a lot of pressure to keep working for him, here everyone (men and women) choose to work for him willingly, because since there’s never been any judicial action against him, they think him possibly molesting his daughter and being generally gross is a “personal matter”.
I wouldn’t come close to Woody Allen and I refuse to watch his movies but I won’t judge people for choosing to believe in presumption of innocence or whatever and work with him. I only judge whoever is very vocal about issues like Trump and sexual assault and then choose to work with these creeps.
It’s the way it’s phrased.
He puts the whole responsability on the women as if they didn’t had agents, sponsors, a whole network of people who either support them or they don’t if they start saying no to a powerful man such as WA.
Also, it makes me think of the ancestral status quo that many people have described on this website of it having to be the real and potential victims to rearrange their lives and not allies, men, and the people in power to make a stand as well.
I was watching BBC News yesterday, which was following up on the Weinstein debacle with the journos and MPs who had been outed as at best sex pests and at worst abusers, and some polling on how many women reported sexual harassment at work (about half). The whole tone was “shock, horror”. And I thought – even the news is only talking to men. Shock, horror? Give me a break. If the news was talking to the 50% of its audience who are women, the tone would be “Yawn. What else is new?”
The world speaks the language of men. Reports the viewpoints of men, for men. Is it any wonder all the men are so bloody oblivious?
It’s also that the passive voice is used to describe attacks as in ‘women were raped’ instead of the men raped women. That passive voice takes the onus off the perpetrators and, I think, encourages the notion that women are still responsible for what happens to them at the hands of their abusers by failing to mention who is actually doing the abusing. We need a campaign to change this.
BBC? Are you in the UK? Have you been watching this whole Jared O’Mara scandal this week? It’s been wild, not just his personal behaviour (were no warning flags raised at Labour HQ when they noted he had a band with a the classy verse “I wish I was a misogynist/ I’d put her in her place/… /I’d smash her in the face”? Really? On top of all the rest of his shenanigans? I mean, ffs!) but also the way harassment/abuse has been framed as if it’s a totally new thing, going against the good old gentlemanly way of doing things, something without any historical precedence or widespread institutional acceptance. I swear some male news people/CEOs/politicians etc have been a dot away from going “Females! What is this thing called ‘harassment’ and how can I spot it in others?”
Oh frisbee, that is a very interesting point. And i think you’re on to something.
I very much ascribe to linguistic relativity, and i’ve never thought about this particular word choice, but it would be interesting to change it.
So you are not reporting a rape, you are reporting a rapist?
Frisbee – and the tabloids always frame domestic murders as happening because of some rejection or non-compliance by the woman, in an otherwise happy relationship. The British press has to be one of the worst in the world, it really does. I know the Americans have terrible TV news but we more than make up for it with our press.
TR – yes, in the UK. And on the left, so it’s no news to me at all that the British radical left has a BIG problem with misogyny. The Labour party needs to be very careful that it doesn’t allow its activists to descend into SWP 2.0 (google Comrade Delta if you don’t know what I mean).
O’Mara, from what I can make out, slipped through vetting because May called the snap election, and because the Corbynite wing of the party was still at war with party HQ both generally and as to where election monies and attention should be concentrated. Then, hey presto, Labour did better than expected, O’Mara unseated Nick Clegg, and they had an MP who should never have made it past the first bloody stage of candidate vetting. They have nobody to blame but themselves specifically, and the British left’s failure to tackle misogyny generally.
YESSSSS, Frisbee. Come through with it!
That is an excellent point Frisbee.
I wish I could take credit but it was actually Jackson Katz during a Ted Talk that pointed this out, here’s the link for anyone whose interested, this makes perfect sense to me.
http://mashable.com/2017/10/17/jackson-katz-assault-quote/#E5j.KHcdxmqf
Sixer – I’m also on the left and am saddened by some of the rhetoric being pushed by Labour aligned activists, etc. I’m only in my early 20s so admittedly naive to the views of the traditional radical left that has come into orbit around the party. I agree, infighting has allowed a noticeable shift in tone at the party fringes that is increasingly uncomfortable.
TR – it’s a shame because both wings of the party are responsible for O’Mara – Momentum/Corbynites for putting him forward in the first place; centrists/HQ for not vetting him.
I would very much like to see the Corbynite wing, with whom I’m broadly aligned at least on the economics, drop all this “centrist dads” and “absolute boys” rhetoric. Does it not occur to them that this language is um… lord above… a bit sexist?!
Ack! I full body cringe every time someone bellows “the absolute boy!”. Also, it is never spoken; only bellowed! *eardrums pop*
Don’t, whatever you do, point it out to them. They get most upset (see: A MAN HAS ARRIVED above). Or rather, do point it out to them, but only after you’ve put on your kevlar vest!
@frisbee, there was actually a great article to that very point in a German newspaper a few days ago. I don’t know who here can read German but I’ll post it anyway: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/kultur/sexismus-und-sprache-gewalt-gegen-frauen-ist-gewalt-von-maennern-1.3714509
The headlines is “Violence against women is violence committed by men”.
The article makes another point which I found pretty enlightening. When you talk about violence against someone or you speak in passive terms, it implies that a crime has already been committed so the woman is at the center. That’s helpful if you address questions re help for victims. But if you continuously involve the perpetrator, you are reminded again and again of who’s causing the problem in the first place and how do we prevent that. You are able to focus on men and not just the aftermath, which is something that’s usually the main focus. How to deal with things that have already happened.
@ littlmissnaughty This “But if you continuously involve the perpetrator, you are reminded again and again of who’s causing the problem in the first place and how do we prevent that. You are able to focus on men and not just the aftermath, which is something that’s usually the main focus. How to deal with things that have already happened”
Exactly, focusing on the language allows room to address the structural problems of pervasive male dominance in society that is actually causing the problem in the first place.
I don’t read German, I wish I did, I still haven’t got over your Matt Damon/Salami comment from the other day!
frisbee, I do love that phrase and I think it actually translates really well.
Well, it’s going to be a big problem for Elle and Selena when they promote this movie…are they in a position to fully articulate why they worked with him in this current climate? Kate Winsley can’t do it…and I’m sure Jude Law won’t be able to either. This will be a mess.
Isn’t he saying what SO many ppl here say everyday? I literally see comments with these sentiments all the time, and it’s usually agreed with.
+1
Yeah but it’s A-ok when women say it about other women, apparently…..
Thank you. I was reading the comments waiting to find someone saying what you just did so I didn’t have to. Also, are we going to pick a fight with anyone who clearly means well if they are not perfect allies, perfect feminists? I’m so tired of the constant snark and criticism! “Oh he/she is just doing the bare minimum so I won’t give him/her a cookie!”
If I was famous, considering the kind of sh*t they have to deal with even when standing up for what is right (because apparently, you must be perfect otherwise “sit down”) I would seriously question if I would be vocal about anything.
Bingo. So true.
Apatow is a hypocrite of the worse order he is one of those persons who thinks he is” woke” when he is actually asleep
Yes he was one of those who rode Bill Cosby ( which Cosby a pig deserved) but IMO it was also motivated to take the heat off Woody Allen at the time
It is only because of the post Wenstein mood that he is even speaking up about Allen at all and the fact that he is blaming the women for working with Allen and not the men speaks volumes as to who he really is
He is asking a legit question. Victim blaming aside, RUN from this muthafacker. Especially you Ms. Smarmy Winslet. The younger girls get a pass, but their parents??? I would not let my daughter work for this man. He is a child molester creep. And I’m glad Apatow’s got the only set of balls in Hollywood to call Allen out. Nobody else is:(
Let’s remember that all feminists/activists start off with baby steps, and Apatow is coming from MALE WHITE PRIVILEDGE. He could sit back like the rest of the male white moguls and keep his mouth shut, but he isn’t….. id like to hear Clooney speak out. Or Damon…. boycott Allen.
this. apatow didn’t word it all perfectly, but the fact that he’s saying anything along these lines publicly at all is a step that more men need to take.
@Jenna I agree.
I also agree with a poster who pointed out how problematic the passive voice is.
I also hate the fact that women as potential victims have to rearrange their lives so as to avoid potential situations. I come from a culture where that is the sad norm.
Men are complicit is letting this happen wherever, but what is needed is a complete turnaround of the way things stand. Where to start? One of the ways, imo is people speaking out, pigs being labeled and the world talking about it.
yes, it is a legitimate question! there’s nothing wrong with what he said. I think the fact that he’s asking it on twitter is the issue, as his phrasing can be taken to mean that he feels it’s on the women. I think it’s likely that he’s saying the situation as a whole is what’s sad — that they “can’t” just run or turn down the offer, because woody allen still has such clout in the industry even though everyone knows he’s a lowdown dirty ass old creep.
By default I would agree with what you wrote, but isn’t Selena a pop star? I find it hard to believe she didn’t have any choice in terms of who she would like to work with. So yes, that issue of “lack of choice” is often pretty valid, but I don’t think we should throw that around like a fact for everybody. Just like Kate Winslet who is an established actress, for example, she made the choice to work with Allen.
@miss s: just reread my comment, I wasn’t super clear. I don’t think it’s a lack of choice issue, especially for the kate winslet types who wouldn’t hurt their careers by turning down an offer. the problem is that working with woody allen is still seen as a career-booster, regardless of the fact that he’s trash. if selena wants to be seen as a “serious actress” then being in a WA film is still unfortunately the way to go.
Yes, I understand that and for sure it’s probably one of the main reasons he is still around and why many still want to work with him. But Woody Allen isn’t the only director who offers “prestige”, and as I read from a film critic, you don’t need to try really hard in a Woody Allen film which might explain a number of people willing to do it. He is no David Fincher in that regard.
But I do understand your point, my issue is that actors who have more than enough to cover the bills are willing to look the other way for “prestige work” coming from someone like Allen or even Polanski.
No, no! You must be perfect and pass some kind of a “feminist purity test”, or you should just shut up.
I agree. It’s a question many of us have asked here for years. Why are ANY actors working with Woody Allen, but especially actresses who claim they are feminist or that they are now against Weinstein? I’ll give Apatow a pass on this one. At least he is asking questions rather than remaining silent. Yes, some women also need to be held accountable for supporting and working with sexual predators.
He isn’t wrong, but what about the actors? Why doesn’t he question why Jude Law, who is much older, isn’t running away? He should question why both genders choose to work with Allen.
Exactly! I see nothing wrong with what he’s saying and agree with him, but the male actors need to asked these same questions.
This 100 percent. Woody Allen, Roman Polanski have established actress working for them. This is not a question of actresses not knowing about the allegations against these men but they purposely and willfully decide to work with them. I think Judd should be allowed to ask that question. In turn the same should be asked of men.
I understand the point but at the same time, I think we should criticize those who consider themselves feminists leaders who support Woody Allen. Blake Lively worked with him, defended him, yet she does charity work to stop p3dos, Scarjo spoke at the woman’s march and yet her fame goes back to his films. I don’t think it’s sexist to point out that plenty of actresses use feminism when they can make money off it or when it’s good for PR but don’t when it comes to making actual career sacrifices.
I’m not sure I blame Elle Fanning is correct because I don’t think she puts herself on that type of a pedestal. But it’s entering white feminist territory to claim that women are above criticism. I find this entire conversation of let’s not criticize white women for working with abusive men, and just focus on men is problematic in nature. It’s the general problem with the feminist movement and the reason many WOC refuse to join, the entire movement is based on coddling upper-class white women.
you’re not wrong.
I don’t understand how this would be an anti-feminist decision?
Men are able to work with any director they see fit without having to answer for it. Women are doing the exact same thing. Doesn’t seem antithetical to feminism but rather an example of feminism, if you ask me. Holding women to a different standard, expecting them to make choices that men don’t have to make is not really feminist IMO.
That being said, if you wanted to make an argument about the men who work with Woody Allen not being feminists then I could maybe get on-board with the idea that the women who work with him are not either.
But here’s the thing: nobody ever makes that point and I think that’s what a lot of people on this board are getting at. Women ARE simply held to a different standard on matters that deal with our own victimization. Not only are we expected to NOT take the good job opportunity because of a moral conflict, but we are also expected to consistently uphold traditional feminist values while men are allowed to go unchecked.
@Kitten
I’m sorry but I think the entire thing is again not acknowledging these women’s privilege and attempting to return the conversation to coddling wealthy white women instead of pointing out that they are oppressors. Which goes back to my point about WOC not wanting to the join the feminist cause, also too lower class white women. As again the feminist movement seems to want to coddle wealthy white women, instead of acknowledging when they are in the wrong.
We need to acknowledge that wealthy white women who parade as “feminists” hold accountability for their actions. Most of the men don’t consider themselves to be feminists that’s where your argument falls apart. Many of the women who work with Allen are open feminists and do things to make themselves seem as leaders in the feminist movement. Yet they work with a known sexual predator.
I’m sorry but any feminist who works with Allen does need to be held to a different standard than a man who isn’t. Your feminism is utterly fake if you do this.
Woody Allen’s actual victim herself called out more of the “feminist” women who worked with Allen then men in her NYTs piece, probably because she found that more of a betrayal than the men.
These women parade themselves as being the beckon of feminism. Scarjo literally had a star position at the woman’s march, and yet she’s remained silent on Weinstein and has remained good friends.
I think you’re focusing on the wrong part of the conversation. It’s not about holding women to a different standard. It’s about holding women who consider themselves feminist to a different standard. You can’t claim to be apart of this movement and work with an abuser.
I think Judd Apatow didn’t do a good job vocalizing that, but I feel that’s the overall point people making when criticizing these actresses for working with Woody Allen. They happily collect checks for doing charity events for women and yet don’t actually stand up for them when it matters.
*good friends with Allen. (Sorry didn’t mean to imply she was friends with Weinstein)
You make some fair points but you’re wrong about me “coddling” wealthy white women. I would absolutely apply this same standard to any woman, regardless of her privilege–I’m pretty consistent in that regard.
Money/fame/access does not somehow inoculate women from systemic oppression and Weinstein’s victims are proof of that.
“Most of the men don’t consider themselves to be feminists that’s where your argument falls apart”
But THAT is quite literally my argument–what you say here. The subtext in that statement is that white women need to be held accountable but white men do not. That’s where I have a problem with your comment. You ask that we call out our oppressor but that’s what we are doing by asking men to step it up as allies, to join the feminist movement, and to police their own behavior.
I completely get where you’re coming from in terms of asking us (WW) to do more and I hope you know that I fight for ALL women and I value intersectionality deeply, even if I miss the mark sometimes.
@Kitten
Well to be fair I’m not discussing Weinstein, I am more understanding about Weinstein and the power dynamic, and the fact that a lot of women didn’t know the full extent until it was too late. I was discussing Woody Allen. Who is a well know sex offender, who’s adoptive daughter came forward a few years back about this abuse. Nobody in Hollywood has an excuse for working with him anymore. They all know, Woody Allen was exposed in the 1990s, this is plenty of time to for Hollywood to come to terms with it.
You are just changing my statement. I’m saying white women who are feminists, who considered themselves feminists, who actively participate in feminist discussions need to be held to a higher standard. Which is why I said in my beginning comment going after Elle Fanning was unfair because she doesn’t do this (yet). I don’t believe in going after women who don’t put themselves up on this pedestal. But if Apatow’s comments were aimed more at actresses like Blake Lively, Kate Winslet, or Scarjo then yes he has a point. If you want to be apart of the movement you need to take victims seriously. Which is something you can’t claim to do if you work and support Woody Allen.
This isn’t like Weinstein, it’s been open for decades now what Allen did to his family. The judge took his children from him, it’s a well-known thing.
It’s a tricky discussion because it feels like if feminists try to shift the collective conversation to “men need to do more” then it somehow reads as “white women need to do less” but to me, it’s not a zero-sum game.
I think it’s possible to say that women like Winslett or Lively aren’t women we should look to as feminist role models and to acknowledge that they are absolutely wrong for working with Allen while holding men accountable for the exact same reasons. I really think that’s the only way that we can get liberal men to question their own role in sustaining the patriarchy.
“I’m saying white women who are feminists, who considered themselves feminists, who actively participate in feminist discussions need to be held to a higher standard.”
^^ I think I need to do some reflecting on what you’re saying here. I appreciate everything else you said BTW, DiligentDiva.
@Kitten
Yea I think their’s a way to do it as well, like I said I don’t think Apatow did a good job vocalizing this, if that’s his intention. I can’t be sure what his intentions are, but I know what my position is.
At the end of the day, I don’t hold much hope for liberal men, no matter how liberal they are it seems they never truly understand the issues at hand. It’s true we all need to do more but at the end of the day, few are willing.
I don’t think Woody Allen is as cut and dry as people on here like to make it seem for a lot of people. When his young daughter’s sexual assault came out in the 90’s it was positioned as a terrible angry breakup and that Mia Farrow was crazy about him going for her other daughter, Soon Yu and Mia planted these memories in her other young daughter’s head. Dylan the younger daughter was really young too, under five. Planting memories in kids about sexual assault was a big thing back then, because apparently it did happen with some daycare center. Mia’s lawyers also said Soon Yu was developmentally delayed, which she has a doctorate now and she claims she is not. One thing for sure is Woody and Mia’s relationship even before his relationship with Soon Yu was definitely odd. He sort of lived with them, but not always. Now one of Mia’s other son’s has sided with Woody, after years of being with Mia. Plus it was litigated and even though the judge thought something happened he wasn’t clear on what and imposed no punishment. I honestly do believe Dylan, but I can understand how someone might want to think well he was never convicted and most of these people are told the story with all the above and think it is complicated. Plus there are people who believe he may be a creep, but their art shouldn’t be affected by that, or they believe until he is convicted either civilly or criminally he is innocent. I have more sympathy for the women who work with him, as it is obvious they have less opportunities in the industry. I just kind of think we are wasting our energy on these so-called complicit people who many are just trying to make a living, yes some more than others, especially since we haven’t worked on getting some of these men some real punishments, and the victims good avenues to go to if this happens. I’m not a fan of sex rehab at a cushy country club.
White feminism is a real issue and Blake and Kate are peak white feminists. I don’t think anyone is saying they are above criticism though….people are stating that it’s easy to fall into the trap of sexism when women are in the wrong but that we still need to avoid it. Yes, women deserve criticism but it is sexist to only call out the young actresses, as Judd did, and not the actors and Amazon studios. I’d argue that the latter two are even more complicit tbh.
I also think we need to look at the system that enables Woody to keep working.
*I’m also somewhat suspicious of white liberal men who toot their own horn of wokeness. Judd in particular has a problem with gender and race.
Apatow is not perfect as a feminist but please do remember that he puts his money where his mouth is in terms of producing films where women are not only starring but also writing (Bridesmaids, Trainwreck). You may not like Amy Schumer but the fact that he was willing to put his considerable clout behind something she wrote is authentic allied behavior.
YES!!! Why women are considered accountable while men are rarely asked these questions? It makes me so mad, blaming it all only on the actresses is not going to help the situation.
Good point. The better question is why would anyone work with him? However, has Woody Allen ever molested a young boy or a grown man? Not that we know of. Young women on the other hand are walking into a known lions den. That’s what Judd is saying.
There’s a difference between “blaming the victim” and “cautioning the prey”.
Also a difference between “calling out the predator” vs “a witch hunt.” Like it or not, Woody Allen.
Actresses only? Does the male segment of the population have no responsibility for working with him?
Honestly, I think the movie-going public and the Academy have a huge role. If his movies keep tanking and don’t receive awards, other directors will get a chance to make “interesting” small films.
I can’t stand Apatow or his brand of brotastic humor. Ever since he threw Kathrine Heigel under the bus for her legitimate and feminist comments about the way Apatow writes his female characters, this dude has been a no for me. If you go back and look at what she said, she made solid points about the male characters being total Peter pans while the female characters are getting sh!t done and taking care of the kids. Then, in the movies, when the women dare to speak up for themselves and ask for help from their partners/husbands, they get mocked as the old ball and chain, the nagging wife etc. Apatow can go away forever.
Well, in my book, a successful older male actor with an amazing career gets judged more as he can afford to be nitpicky about their projects.
UG, self righteous ‘feminist’ men are the worst because they act like they are the first ones to have a moral conscious and ignore the thousands of years women have been doing the same work. He revealed himself completely in this tweet so I am glad he sent it. The way Dunham fawns over him as a feminist really irks me too, please stop praising men who are just acting like basic human beings, they have nothing to lose, they are not challenging the system.
It reminds me of that hilarious Portlandia skit where the feminist mens group are congratulating themselves on not doing horrible things and applauding each other.
I don’t disagree with him. Nobody gets to play dumb after Dylan Farrow’s heartbreaking NYT op-ed.
People knew before Dylan’s op-ed and yes, Judd does have a valid point and people shouldn’t play dumb. However, putting the fault only on the women is sexist (even if these women are in the wrong) and enables men to continue to be complicit without facing any backlash. If he followed it up with tweets condemning actors and Amazon it wouldn’t come across like peak fake white male wokeness….but he only mentioned the actresses.
The thing is he is getting sh*t specifically for a tweet. He didn’t write a full essay blaming actresses who work with Allen. He wrote a tweet saying something I see being written here all the time. I believe it is a valid question since some of this women call themselves feminists and seem so shocked and angry about other issues of the same nature. Why can’t we call them out on their hypocrisy? It doesn’t mean men aren’t responsible, or studios… This was a single tweet and after what I listened from him at the HW reporter roundtable, he doesn’t seem to be blaming women at all, he actually came across as someone who understood very well the power dynamics at play.
Exactly, Miss S.
Um, Harvey was also the very image of progressive rectitude – and it was all just a cover. Pardon me for side eyeing Judd the Feminist Hero a little.
Ha, of course Judd only goes after the young actresses and not Amazon Studios. I see you, Judd. I’ve always been suspicious of him because of his treatment of Anne Hathaway after she turned down the role in Knocked Up and how he talked about Emma Stone.
I’ve long been disappointed that some of my favorite actors and actresses are complicit in working with Allen and Polanski. As Kaiser said though, as disappointing as it is in how Hollywood is enabling these men there is a real gendered problem in how we look at this issue. It’s not that hard to fall into the sexism trap when women are doing wrong, but we still need to avoid it. A non-sexist way of looking at Woody is equally criticizing men and women for working with him (although I’d argue that men are even more at fault) and holding the studios most accountable. Not making Selena Gomez the focus of an article, as there has already been a piece making her the centerpiece of people being complicit in working with Woody.
But of course Judd is too chicken to go after Amazon and he’ll simply bat at one of the branches of the problem and ignore the root.
I totally agree and I would like to add two criteria: the more A-list the actor/actress the more responsible are they. And the richer they are the more responsible they are.
Because an A-list actor/actress with an Oscar under his/her belt can much more easily refuse to work with Woody A. than an unknown actor/actress who desparately scrapes by.
Same with money. The more money an actor/actress has made already the more easily they could refuse. Because they don’t need the money that desparately.
Because having worked for a serial child molester (and rapist?) called Woody Allen does wonders for any actor’s or actress’ career. Looks great on a CV. That is why. Allen does still get too much recognition for his work. Perhaps his work deserves the merits but the man does not.
Judd Apatow talked about how he used Woody Allen movies as inspiration for the Trainereck with Amy Adams and that was only 2 yrs ago. I would ask Judd why he is promoting Woody’s work if he disgusts him so much #hypocrite
This is said from a white privileged guy who would get second, third and fourth tries to have success. When a woman in the industry is given far less chances to succeed. They take the opportunities presented to them, and can’t be as choosy if they want a career.
Almost every end product on way to being produced and consumed is tainted by abuse of power. Whether it is environmental degradation, horrific farming practices, unfair labor, etc. I just think it’s ignorant to think of this Hollywood situation as evil men and female victims. Promotion of willful naivete is so unhelpful.
I wonder why Judd Apatow keeps writing/producing the same sh***y roles for women. Apatow’s range:
a) hot mess sexy girlfriend type
b) pathetic shrew wife type
Not unlike Woody’s oeuvre since he broke up with Mia and took up with Soon Yi, actually.
THIS!!!
I blame both men and women equally. Actors (especially those that aren’t “A” list) may not have control over Woody Allen, but the ONE THING they could do is simply not work with him. Yet so many continue to work with and support his career. Those who do make me sick, whether they are male or female. As for Apatow’s words, I think they came out wrong, but I can see an argument that, while male actors are ALSO wrong for supporting Allen’s career, the difference is that female actors could be potential victims of his. So to me it’s not so much putting the MORAL burden on females rather than males, but that females have more self-preservation interests for avoiding Allen. But again, to me both genders are wrong for supporting Allen’s career.
I agree that both men and women created this environment. Just think of the stage mothers, parents who pushed their children into showbiz to have better lifestyles for themselves. Many looked the other way to keep on having these lifestyles.
Judd is right. Woody Allen is vile, and I believe all actresses who can say no, should say it!
I understand a young actress who doesn’t have much choice, who is new to Hollywood, just starting out. But established women like Cate Blanchett, Kate Winslet, Miley Cyrus, Selena Gomez, Emma Stone, Kirsten Stewert, Naomi Watts,etc should know better.
And another thing I would like to add is that I wish even Malia Obama chose better people to intern for. Lena Dunham and the very ruined Harvey Weinstien were very poor choices. Someone who comes from great privledge and wealth should have known better. I still can’t believe the Obamas are even allowing her to go into Hollywood! Its such a toxic, brutal industry!
Do Woody Allen movies even make money? I always hear about all these Woody Allen movies but I can’t remember a single one that has been in the theatre in years.
Judd Apatow has been (I’m not kidding) personally a jackass to me – I don’t really give a shit what he has to say about anything. And his movies are all TOO LONG.
*but, edited to say that he’s not wrong here
Woody Allen is a nasty, horny, freaky, creepy little man, who slept with, and married his girlfriend, Mia Farrow’s adopted daughter, when she was a teenager. It is also highly-likely that he sexually assaulted a second adopted daughter of Mia’s when the girl was a child. That’s what pedophiles do; they gravitate to women with young daughters, and pounce on the little girls, after they’ve gained the love and trust of the whole family. It is probably safe to say that actors who choose to work for him, knowing that he is a certified pig, do so, in the guise of working with a great film maker, to “justify” their own nasty, horny, freaky, creepy, pedophilic fantasies.