Stylish Celebrity Escapism
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Oct 6
'08
Clay Aiken says he’s the same person he’s always been since coming out

Clay Aiken has never seemed to understand what the fuss is in terms of his sexual orientation. While this can be attributed to an unwillingness to come out of the closet, Clay’s also said he doesn’t see himself as a very sexual person – and I think that plays a part in it too. I think he genuinely doesn’t understand why people would care one way or the other, since he doesn’t really see himself in a possibly sexual way. But he did finally come out of the closet, noting that he needed to be open and honest because that’s the way he wants to raise his son.

Since then Clay has said he has no regrets about how he handled things, and he’s had to remind people that he’s still the exact same person he was before he came out.

“I would have preferred to separate my personal life from my professional life,” Aiken, 29, writes on his clayonline.com. “But, living as myself without discussing my sexuality publicly would have been as impossible.” Writing on various message boards, many Aiken fans expressed feelings of betrayal by the American Idol alum.

Aiken has no regrets about the way he handled his personal life over the past five years, saying he has “the same liberties and rights that every single gay man and woman in the world should have … the right to determine for myself when I was ready to discuss my personal life.”

Discussing himself in a 2003 Rolling Stone interview, Aiken opined that male celebrities are either considered womanizers or gay. “Since I’m neither one of those, people are completely concerned about me,” he said.

He says he will not apologize for the response, saying, “When this guy started asking me about things that I didn’t really know how to answer for myself, things that I was not yet ready to admit to folks like my mother and my family, things that I found intimidating and invasive, I responded in what I assumed was a benign way at the time.” In conclusion Aiken blogs, “I am not defined by my sexuality. It is, simply, a small facet of the same person I have always been. Nothing has changed.”

[From People]

I think it’s important to remember that while it’s normal to wonder about a lot of things that are ambiguous, Clay – and any gay person – has the right to come out when and how they want to. It’s not information they owe anyone. As People noted, he did explicitly state that he’s not gay, but I understand how that could happen if you haven’t prepared yourself on how to deal with that line of questioning. Though Clay’s the same person, I hope he has a sense of peace and happiness for being able to live his life out in the open.

Here’s Clay mingling with fans and signing autographs behind the stage of his hit show “Spamalot,” on September 30th. Images thanks to Fame.

Posted in Clay Aiken, Gay Issues

Written by JayBird         17 Comments »
Sep 25
'08
Clay Aiken says first person he came out to was fellow AI contestant Kimberley Locke


Clay Aiken was on Good Morning America this morning talking to Diane Sawyer. They showed footage of him with his adorable six week old baby, Parker Foster Aiken, and the baby’s mother, his best friend and producer, Jaymes Foster. Overall he came across as nonchalant and unconcerned with any fallout from his public announcement this week that he’s gay. Sawyer tried to get all serious with him at some points and wanted him to reveal his pain, but he wasn’t having it. Clay seemed genuine in his responses to me and like he has reached a point and has the attitude that he’s ready to come out, come what may.

Aiken opened the interview by explaining his decision to have a child.

On how he decided to have a child
“James was ending a relationship, a marriage she had been in for over 20 years. She had always wanted kids, I’ve always wanted kids. Being a gay man it’s something for me that wasn’t going to be an option anyway.”

On why he came out
“I think, it’s obviously something in this day and age people in my situation don’t have an opportunity to keep anything of theirs personal. But at the same time, I have a son and it’s kind of a decision that I made along with Jaymes and along with friends and family that ‘I can’t raise a kid to lie… keep secrets.’

I’m not making an announcement at this time. I’m speaking about it so people will stop asking questions about it.”

On coming out to friends and family
“I don’t think I admitted [I was gay] to anyone outside of myself until 2003 when I was on Idol…

“I grew up never caring what people thought of me… I got picked on for everything… when I got on Idol and people were cheering me on… there you are in an environment that is more open and more accepting and… you don’t feel like such an outcast.

“I didn’t tell but one person. I told Kimberley Locke who was a contestant with me on Idol. She was the… first person I’d ever told. She kept it to herself for years… I hope she still ain’t told nobody.”

[Transcribed from video of Clay Aiken’s appearance on GMA, 9/25/08]

Diane Sawyer then tried to get Clay to talk seriously about the problems he had coming to terms with his sexuality and said “There must have been suffering in the beginning… when you are grappling with it.”

Clay didn’t take the bait and answered “I’ve always been pretty stubborn and I’ve always thought that I can handle more than most people could.”

Sawyer said “I don’t believe you [that it didn’t bother you]” and Clay remained nonchalant, and said “What am I going to do about it? Nothing.”

Clay then laughed when he described how he came out to his mother on the day his brother, a US Marine, was shipped out to Iraq. He said it was harder to tell his brother though than anyone else, and that his bother said “Ok, is that it?” and then it was over. Clay said his brother’s response gives him a lot of hope that the next generation, and his son’s generation, will be more accepting. Clay said it’s not his place to tell the older generation that they’re wrong, though.

As for how his coming out is going to affect his career, or if he delayed it because he didn’t want to jeopardize his career, Clay made it clear that it was more about him coming to terms with it personally and with his family before deciding to go public.

On his fans
“I don’t have any designs on the fact that… every single person is going to be perfectly ok with it. I’m sure that there are people who will grapple with it. I’m sure that emotions will run the gamut from people who already knew to people who really believed it wasn’t true.

On why he didn’t come out earlier: it wasn’t because of his career
“That moment in my career, I had not told anyone. I had not been comfortable enough to talk to anyone. It’s taken me awhile to have that faith in society. To accept the fact that people are more accepting and more open-minded and more loving and caring and less interested in your personal life than I initially though.”

On protecting his grandmother
“One of the biggest concerns to me has been my grandmother and wanting to protect her. It’s not a secret from her, but one of my biggest concerns is how are her friends going to treat her? How are my mother’s friends going to treat her?

She [my mother] and I had a really great talk a few weeks ago and I could see it for the first time as a parent. With Parker I want him to be this that and the other… I’ve had to remind myself, you can’t dream too specifically [for your child]… She [my mom] has done marvelously…

I can’t tell anybody they’re wrong. Patience is the most valuable asset. Things are going to take time. Things don’t change overnight.

[Transcribed from video of Clay Aiken’s appearance on GMA, 9/25/08]

I came away from this with a lot of respect for Clay. It sounds like it was hard for him to come out to his family and that they’re still not completely ok with it, but that as a father he’s reached a point in his life where he’s come to terms with everything and is ready to be open about it.

You can watch the video of Clay’s interview on GMA’s website, but it’s not embeddable and restarted by itself a few times when I was trying to view it.

Clay Aiken is shown at the opening night of of the Broadway musical ‘A Tale of Two Cities’ in NY on 9/18/08. Credit: Joseph Marzullo / WENN

Posted in Clay Aiken

Written by Celebitchy         12 Comments »
Sep 24
'08
Clay Aiken on the fact that he’s a ‘homosexual’


People.com has posted the details of their semi-surprising cover story on Clay Aiken’s admission that he’s gay. The 29 year-old singer has finally put to rest rumors about his sexuality by admitting that he’s of the other persuasion and doesn’t want to hide it anymore. Aiken had a child, a baby boy, with an older female friend about six weeks ago. Parker Foster Aiken was conceived by in vitro fertilization and is being raised by Clay and the baby’s mother, music producer Jaymes Foster.

Clay told People that he decided to come out after he became a father because he wanted his son to live by his example and not hide things. He also called himself a “homosexual,” which seems like an oddly formal word to use, as D-Listed points out. Maybe it’s more commonly used in the south where he’s from.

“It was the first decision I made as a father,” Aiken, 29, tells the upcoming issue of PEOPLE, on newsstands Friday. “I cannot raise a child to lie or to hide things. I wasn’t raised that way, and I’m not going to raise a child to do that.”

Aiken says he expects the news may overwhelm some of his fans. “Whether it be having a child out of wedlock, or whether it be simply being a homosexual, it’s going to be a lot,” said Aiken, who returned to Broadway last week as Sir Robin in Monty Python’s Spamalot.

[From People]

Clay was born in Raleigh, North Carolina, and is a born-again Christian. He says his mom started crying when he came out to her four years ago, but that she was “supportive and comforting” and has really grown a lot:

The born-again Christian singer also reveals how he told his mother Faye he’s gay four years ago. After dropping off his younger brother Brett, who was being deployed to Iraq, at Camp Lejeune, “I started crying in the car,” Aiken remembers. “It was dark. I was sitting there, thinking to myself. I don’t know why I started thinking about it … I just started bawling. She made me pull over the car and it just came out.”

So what was his mom’s reaction? “She started crying. She was obviously somewhat stunned. But she was very supportive and very comforting.” Even now, Aiken admits, “She still struggles with things quite a bit, but she’s come a long way.”

As for his rabid fans, often called Claymates, Clay says he never wanted to mislead them and hopes they understand:

“[I want my fans to] know that I’ve never intended to lie to anybody at all. … But if they leave, I don’t want them to leave hating me.”

Do you think Clay took a calculated risk realizing he could score the cover of People by coming out? Are Ricky Martin and his twins next?

Posted in Clay Aiken, Coming Out

Written by Celebitchy         29 Comments »
Sep 23
'08
Clay Aiken officially comes out of the closet

Clay Aiken has finally come out of the closet and confirmed that he is gay – to People magazine no less. Clay, 29, became a dad for the first time recently. His best friend Jaymes Foster was artificially inseminated and gave birth in August. The pair said they planned to raise their son together, though it was clear even before Clay came out that they were just good friends.

Perez Hilton has a copy of the October 4th edition of People. It has Clay on the cover, holding his son, and the headline “YES, I’M GAY. The Idol star opens up about his emotional decision to come out: ‘I cannot raise a child to lie or to hide things.’”

Good for him. I’d say it’s about time – because it has been a long time - but everyone has to figure out what to share and when and how to do it. It’s an important process, and I’m glad for Clay that he’s finally comfortable being himself.

In the past, Clay has said that he doesn’t consider himself to be a very sexual person, and that still may be the case. He also admitted he’s never been in a romantic relationship with anyone. Clay worked with kids before American Idol, and something tells me his biggest priority will be his son. I seriously doubt we’ll see him living it up in clubs now that he’s open and free. Hopefully this will make his life even better.

Posted in Clay Aiken, Coming Out

Written by JayBird         40 Comments »
Aug 8
'08
Clay Aiken is now a father

The chosen one has arrived. Well, the “chosen one” if you’re one of the 736 women over 44-years-old who call themselves the Claymates. Yes I find that disturbingly creepy too. Though I find the idea of inflicting Clay Aiken’s genes on a baby to be kinda mean, I’m actually happy for him. And just teasing about the genes, of course.

Clay knocked up his best friend and music producer Jaymes Foster the old fashioned way: with a test tube. Or maybe a turkey baster, you never know. Clay and Jaymes are just good friends, and decided they both wanted kids and to raise them together, even though their relationship is platonic. This morning their son Parker Foster Aiken was born.

Good news, Claymates: the Claynation has welcomed its first heir. Clay Aiken and platonic baby-making partner Jaymes Foster welcomed their first child together in North Carolina this morning, the singer’s rep confirmed to E! News.

The American Idol alum’s mother turned proud grandma first announced the new arrival this morning. Faye Aiken told Raleigh radio station WRAL that her son’s longtime producer gave birth to son Parker Foster Aiken at 8:08 a.m. in an undisclosed location in the singer’s home state. Parker tipped the scales at 6 pounds, 2 ounces and measured in at 19 inches.

Faye Aiken also broke the news that the Aiken progeny did not inherit dad’s fiery red mop, instead saying that he has dark hair and that, upon seeing him, the “Measure of a Man” singer was “smiling from ear to ear.”

Although theirs is not a romantic relationship, the duo plan to raise the baby together.

[From E! News]

I think their decision is damn cool. Their son will have two parents that love him and wanted him and will probably end up with a much more stable home than a lot of kids raised by parents with a more traditional relationship. They downside is he’ll have t hear lullabies sung by Clay Aiken, and unlike the rest of us little Parker won’t be able to turn off the CD. But I’m guessing he’s going to be one well-loved kid. Congratulations to Clay and Parker.

Here’s Clay making an in store appearance promoting his CD ‘On My Way Here’ at Virgin Megastore in Times Square on May 6th. Images thanks to WENN.

Posted in Babies, Births, Clay Aiken, Jaymes Foster

Written by JayBird         19 Comments »
Jun 9
'08
Clay Aiken tries to buy baby for $1 million


The National Enquirer has a new story with an attention-grabbing title that’s technically accurate, but is a little less shocking when you hear the details.

Clay Aiken is currently expecting a baby with his producer and friend, a woman in her late 40s named Jaymes Foster. Foster was artificially inseminated with the 29 year-old singer’s sperm, and he plans to help raise the baby, although their relationship is strictly platonic.

Aiken does not answer questions about his sexual orientation, but has hinted that he is gay and is just not going to talk about it.

According to The Enquirer, the pregnancy with his “best friend,” Foster, came after he tried to adopt a child through regular channels and after he made a failed attempt to give a million dollars to another pregnant friend about a year and a half ago, in exchange for her baby. The other friend was in a tough spot, because she was married and having an affair with another married man when she got pregnant by him, and Clay truly thought he was helping her. The father of the baby was insulted by Clay’s offer, and has since divorced his wife to raise his baby with the other woman.

[Clay Aiken] made the sensational money offer in late 2006, a close friend exclusively told The Enquirer.

The drama began when a woman who was friends with Clay discovered she was pregnant after having an affair. “The woman was a platonic but close friends of Aiken’s,” said the friend.

“She was having an affair with the husband of another of Clayton’s close women friends - and he got her prgnant.”

The sincer… was upset to see two of his female friends facing off in a potentially embarrassing scandal, according to the source. The husband told his wife about his infidelity and resulting pregnancy, “and she did not take it well,” revealed the source. Then the man stunned his wife by disclosing Aiken’s shocking $1 million baby offer.

The entertainer had good intentions, hoping his offer would be the perfect solution to a difficult problem - but it blew up in his face when the husband took offense, divulged the source.

“Clayton thought he was getting the man out of a hole, but the man was insulted. He turned him down flat. He divorced his wife and now lives with the woman he impregnated - and the two are great parents to their baby.”

[From The National Enquirer, print edition, June 16, 2008]

The Enquirer also has more background behind Clay’s friendship with his producer and their decision to have a child together. They say that Foster is “like a big sister” to Clay, and that he stays at her place in LA while he’s there, and that she often visits him in Raleigh, North Carolina at his home. Clay is “desperate to be a dad,” according to an insider, and Foster recently went through a bad divorce, but “always wanted to have kids.”

It’s strange to hear of a 29 year-old guy who wants to be a dad so badly that he’s willing to pay a friend for her illegitimate baby. Men can have babies at any age, but Clay must realize that in his situation it’s harder for him to settle down and have a child. He seems to have found a solution with his good friend, and they’ll probably be devoted parents to this little one as it’s something they’ve both yearned and tried for in the past.

Clay Aiken is shown promoting his new CD ‘On My Way Here’ at Virgin Megastore in Times Square on 5/6/08, thanks to WENN.

Posted in Babies, Clay Aiken

Written by Celebitchy         18 Comments »
May 29
'08
Clay Aiken is going to be a daddy

No your eyes are not messed up: you read that headline correctly. Of all the upsetting, horrendous things I’ve ever had to report, this may very well be the worst. Clay Aiken is going to be a father, according to Us Weekly and TMZ.

Idol Clay Aiken’s producer is pregnant with his child, TMZ.com reports.

Jaymes Foster (who is reportedly in her late 40s) was artificial inseminated with the 29-year-old singer’s sperm, according to the report.

Aiken lives with Foster – described as his “best friend” – when he’s in L.A. and plans to be involved with parenting their child, TMZ reports.

The crooner has consistently avoided questions about his sexuality.

“People don’t want to have that type of stuff pushed, people who are living in Omaha or in Charlotte or wherever,” Aiken told Access Hollywood last month.

“They don’t want stuff like that pushed in their face,” he added. “I don’t think that’s necessary and that’s also not what I’m here for. I mean, I went on Idol to be a singer, I went on Idol to be an entertainer and that’s what my priority is.”

[From Us Weekly]

This means that someone intentionally chose to have Clay Aiken’s DNA growing inside them. It wasn’t some drunken mistake (I realize that’s even less likely to happen with Clay Aiken, but you get the point). It was this conscious, thought-out plan. It means that Jaymes Foster looked around at the men in her life, and the VERY BEST CANDIDATE was Clay Aiken. Which makes me really judge the other men she knows.

According to TMZ, Foster is 50-years-old, the sister of record mogul David Foster, and has produced several of Clay’s albums. The way they phrased it is that “Clay is a lot more than sperm — we’re told he will have an active role in raising the child.” Considering the way Clay supposedly bosses everyone around and lectures people on manners, he’s going to be one uptight dad.

Clay is scheduled to perform on the Tonight Show this evening. Something tells me this won’t come up, but you never know.

Here’s Clay arriving at Planet Hollywood in Times Square to promote his role in Monty Python’s ‘Spamalot’ on April 8th. I don’t think that’s the actual cup he used, but no guarantees. Images thanks to WENN.

Posted in Babies, Clay Aiken, Jaymes Foster, Parents, Pregnant

Written by JayBird         50 Comments »
Apr 25
'08
Clay Aiken says people don’t care if he’s gay

Clay Aiken seems to think no one cares about whether he’s gay or straight. Clay says his fans don’t want to hear about his sexuality – but the way he phrases it makes it sound like his fans don’t want to hear that he’s gay – and he knows that. It comes off more as a business decision than anything else – and though Clay never says it, it seems to be that he’s acknowledging that he’s gay without actually saying it.

When it comes to his sexuality, “People don’t want to have that type of stuff pushed, people who are living in Omaha or in Charlotte or wherever,” Aiken, 29, tells Access Hollywood.

“They don’t want stuff like that pushed in their face,” he adds. “I don’t think that’s necessary and that’s also not what I’m here for. I mean, I went on Idol to be a singer, I went on Idol to be an entertainer and that’s what my priority is.”

When blogs began speculating on his sexuality — several men even came forth, claiming to have met Aiken in gay chat rooms — he admits it was “difficult initially.

“I think when you get into anything and you’re not used to people scrutinizing this, that or the other… it bothers you,” Aiken says.

“After awhile you kind of just say, ‘Forget this … This is not who I am, this is not about me, what I want to do is be a singer, want to be an entertainer, and forget all that stuff,’” he adds.

[From Us Weekly]

It kind of sounds like Clay’s saying, “It’s obvious I’m gay but I’m not going to state that because some of my close-minded fans would have a problem with it.” He seems to have decided that his sexuality isn’t the most important thing in his life. A few months ago, Aiken admitted he’d never had a romantic relationship with anyone – and that it didn’t really bother him. By all accounts he is quite the workaholic – it sounds like he’s focusing on that part of his life so he doesn’t need to deal with the more complicated issues.

Here’s Clay promoting ” Spamalot” on Broadway at Planet Hollywood in New York on April 8th. Images thanks to PR Photos.

Posted in Clay Aiken

Written by JayBird         33 Comments »
Jan 28
'08
Clay Aiken says he’s never had a romantic relationship with anyone

Clay Aiken has been doing a TON of press for his recent starring role in “Spamalot” on Broadway. This is tolerable or terrible depending on your view of Clay Aiken. It’s definitely more tolerable if you only have to read it instead of hear him speak. Clay’s moved to the big city and at 29 years old is living alone for the first time in his life – and seems to feel rather panicky about the whole thing. He gave a surprisingly candid and friendly interview to New York magazine (let’s not forget his terse exchange with Newsweek recently). Clay’s still promoting his family-friendly, nerdy/geeky/dorky, pure-as-the-snow routine.

“Let’s not fool ourselves,” he says with his eyebrows up in his arch, queeny way. “The truth is? There are people like Justin Timberlake, males who are cool on radio right now, and then there’s me. If I heard myself in a dance club? If I went into a dance club—which I never do—and I heard Clay Aiken come on, I’d roll my eyes and get out. But you know what? I’m fine with being kind of vanilla! It’s oh-kye!” In his book, Aiken says that it’s not just clubs but also bars he dislikes: “The only reason people go to bars is to get drunk and have sex. To me, bars are what hell is like.”

[From New York Magazine]

Clay has long refused to talk about his sexual orientation, however he does talk about his personal life a bit – or lack thereof. Apparently Clay’s not interested in the men or the women – his only meaningful relationship is with his dogs.

He imagines his social life here will be “nonexistent, really. I’m not a nighttime person.” He does not plan on dating, and he is not involved with anyone. “Heck, no,” he says. “My dogs.” He has never had a romantic relationship with anyone, unless you count the girls he took to dances back in high school in Raleigh. “I just don’t have an interest in … any of that at all. I have got too much on my plate,” he says. “I’d rather focus on one thing and do that when I can devote time to it, and right now, I just don’t have any desire.”

But Aiken is 29 years old and he is also a human. Surely he must have needs. Urges. He contemplates this in silence for 20 or 30 seconds. “Ah think maybe I don’t! I mean, not really. I’ve just kind of shut it off, maybe. Is that bad?”

[From New York Magazine]

Given that interview, Clay Aiken strikes me as someone who could very well be asexual. I saw a story a while back on ABC News about people who say they’re asexual, and their whole motto was “sexless and proud.” Most of the people interviewed described themselves as asexual and said sex just had no appeal to them. Many claimed they had no inclination towards romantic relationships in general, and they had incredibly happy and fulfilling lives – they just have nothing to do with sex. It really sounds like that’s what Clay Aiken is describing. He’s been pestered by gay rumors for years – which he’s refused to discuss. It’s obviously possible Clay says the things he says as a way of sidestepping the issue. But it is also possible he’s got his own way of doing things and living his life, and he’s perfectly happy with that.

Clay’s been getting pretty good reviews for his Spamalot performance. Although New York magazine was definitely hard on him at several points in the article, they said he really fits into the role well – he even broke his “no cussing” policy. The article also speculates that living in New York may break Clay, and get him to loosen up a bit. Only time will tell.

Posted in Clay Aiken, Interviews, Sex

Written by JayBird         See post for comments
Jan 14
'08
Clay Aiken says AI is like high school, acts rude in interview

clayaiken.jpg
Clay Aiken was rude and dismissive in an interview with Newsweek recently. Considering how many of his fellow AI stars have been dropped from their record labels, he should adjust his attitude and take a dose of humility. Acting like a spoiled brat is not going to win him any fans. He talked about his new role in the musical “Spamalot,” and when the interviewer asked him if women throw their panties on stage for him, he said they do and that he’s had Depends thrown on stage that said “Your older fans love you, too.”

When the interviewer asks him about the infamous foot incident on the plane, in which the FBI were called after he had an altercation with a woman who objected to his feet being on her armrest, the tone of the interview changed and he said he wasn’t going to address that again. To be fair, he did talk about it before in a dismissive statement in which he seemed to suggest that he didn’t do anything wrong. Then he gets all nasty and doesn’t even bother to give bland noncommittal responses, which is an essential skill that anyone who talks to the press as part of their job should learn.

Do women throw their underwear on stage?
In Minneapolis, we had a lady throw her panties in the middle of “Silent Night.” I’m like, Are you kidding me? We’ve had ladies throw Depends that say, “Your older fans love you, too.”

How did you get into a fight with that lady on a plane?
I’m not going to talk about it.

I was just curious because you’ve never talked about it.
I did talk about it.

What about the Kelly Ripa thing?
I’m not going to discuss it.

Did you think it was homophobic?
I’m not going to discuss it.

What do you want to talk about?
I think we’re done.

Can we talk about something fun?

No, we’re done. I thought NEWSWEEK would be more reputable. I’m surprised.

But I think people are curious about it.
It was a year ago. This is NEWSWEEK. It’s not the National Enquirer. I’d hate to have a job where I had to be rude to people.

We’re just having a conversation.
Change the subject! I’d never take a job where I had to do something that I didn’t want to do.

What about all those Ford commercials on “American Idol”?

That wasn’t a job.

It was part of your job.
It wasn’t a Ford commercial. It was a music video. It was a completely different thing.

I’ll change the subject. What do you do for fun?
I watch the news. I read news magazines, but I’m reconsidering that now.

Are you going to watch “Idol”?
I haven’t watched since season four. I compare it to high-school football–if it weren’t for high school, we wouldn’t be successful, but I don’t need to keep going to the football games.

[From Newsweek.com via The Huffington Post]

I love how the interviewer shoots right back at him by bringing up those Ford Commercials when Aiken says “I’d never take a job where I had to do something that I didn’t want to do.”

So do you think Clay was thrilled to sing at a church Christmas concert in Wichita, Kansas? According to him he only does what he wants to do for his career, and who doesn’t want to sing at a church where they consider homosexuality a sin? Not that their belief system would have anything to do with Clay.

Image via Newsweek.

Posted in Arrogant, Clay Aiken

Written by Celebitchy         See post for comments
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